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Hey Totally Not Mark I was just wondering if there were any plans for the TOP fights in ten words or less? I enjoyed the other videos like that and am looking forward to it.
If only Super wasn't so damn boring. The Goku Black arc will forever remain as the most interesting part of the entire series besides the concept of Ultra Instinct. Everything else fell flat and HARD. Battle hardened bloody fights? Gone. Now they fight and look like they're struggling but just having a good spar. The Retcons are God awful. Should've kept potara fusion the same. It would've never been abused because Goku and Vegeta need the most rare excuse to fuse, and they don't even like it themselves. But the absolute worst retcon in my eyes was the Saiyan latent ability. Before it felt like Zenkais were powerful, but not stupidly broken like they are now. WHY ARE GOKU AND VEGETA LITERALLY GETTING ANNIHILATED BUT IN A COUPLE SECONDS LATER AT NEAR FULL POWER?? Why are Caulifla and Kale wildly strong. Not even kind of strong. They are so strong that every single villain in Z is irrelevant to them by the end of the ToP. That is *wild.* Super was gonna face these problems by continuously making Goku and Vegeta super strong, but its tragic how they tripped on the execution so bad. Hit? 1000 year old assassin. That's fine. Goku Black? Evil Kaioshin that takes Goku's body and adapts into it. Fine. Jiren? Random alien with generic backstory that made him the most OP being in the show besides Zeno? Trip. Complete trip. Especially when they give him a further boost on his already INSANE power. Super felt so hollow. When it was cool, it was cool. When it sucked? IT SUCKED. I dont often think on what sucked in Z because, to me, it wasn't as blatant.
Why would Toriyama want a focus on a filthy half breed, when Broly is a full blooded saiyan HAHAHA. Ok to be real I personally think Broly has more potential as a part of the Goku and vageetz club more than Gohan, love him but he’s kinda ran his corse is the main series.
The part I loved the most about DBS: Broly is the call me Kakarot scene, why? Because ever since raditz arrived goku denied he was a saiyan, a race of warriors that want to take over planets but, as observed through Z and super he started to accept it and since this was told through out a long time it worked well, very well since this is development but very subtle which caused it to be impactful..
It’s likely due to the fact that for the first time in the entire series goku shows that he’s genuinely proud to call himself a saiyan while he did accept that he was one after freeza, he never showed any care or interest in his saiyan heritage likely due to his introduction of his own people being cruel malicious murderers like raditz and nappa (and caring only for fighting) but upon seeing broly, a saiyan that shows a sense of good will/ purity and bountiful potential , goku finally realizes that not all Saiyan’s are evil and cruel especially due to not having freezas influence in his life and as such he feels comfortable referring to him by his saiyan name (also this is a nice little potential reference to the original broly)
I think Super did a good job making the characters feel more human, but the stakes were never as high and the villains felt less intense. There were also far less surprises in Super since Goku was basically beating all the main bosses again.
Goku losing Ultra Instinct at the end against Jiren and the return of Frieza and 17 for a teamwork showdown was a pleasant surprise. And I like that it wasn’t a transformation like the Super Saiyan; he had to work at it, lose it, master it, understand it, and it’s not a technique like Kaioken or a powerup like Blue. It’s a zone, a state of mind, which he needs to be pushed to the edge beyond stamina to maybe unlock.
@@michaeldeboer9940 I respectfully disagree. Ultra Instinct was basically just given to Goku by the writers and then taken away when they felt like it. He gets it out of nowhere and after the tournament is done he conveniently can't use it anymore. It was just a writing device to let Goku win anytime he needed too.
But they're not human though, and that's why Super is trash. It took 20+ years of story telling and character building and tossed it all out the window. Vegeta cooking eggs with an apron?
This is because in Super the writers forgot how to write conversations in a natural and realistic way - not that they were ever perfect in that regard in DBZ - and in Broly the dialogue is so perfectly on point that the characters are pretty much just having normal conversations. Of course, this is just my experience having watched DBZ dubbed, then watching Buu arc + Super Subbed first then Dubbed as it caught up, so I have no idea if the dialogue is less stilted if you comprehend Japanese. Also, I think some anime tropes started sneaking their way in with Super, and Broly has almost none. Long story short, we need Toriyama to keep holding the reigns.
@@TheHylden Broly didn't fix dragon ball super's Goku, he just took the focus off of DBS Goku, every time a new enemy shows up, they either start off evil then turn good, or are just evil for the sake of being evil. Broly, on the other hand, was like a confused man who was pure but also mislead by his father, making the fans much more focused on Broly.
Just Some Guy with a Mustache the manga handles goku waaaaay better. I get it goku isn’t this Superman character but he also isn’t this idiot that doesn’t care for anything but fighting. It’s such a cop out now a days and overused in dragon ball for goku.
I don't know it might have been because I was a little kid back then but Dragon Ball Z felt a bit more mature and serious where as Dragon Ball Super felt like it was a kids show, Also one thing Dragon Ball Z did was it took risks where Dragon Ball Super was just about pleasing the fans.
@RexFaceLess Risks that are completely and totally covered aren't risks at all. That's literally not what a risk is. The acquisition of the dragon balls is completely and totally trivialized to a 2-5 minute segment where a wish can just get churned out in the midst of Z. Super at the very least was self-aware of this and made it so the risks taken were scaled up and that the power needed to undo the risks required a set of dragon balls that hadn't been trivialized at all, thanks to it requiring you to scour TWO UNIVERSES rather than a single planet that even Bulma could fly across with ease.
@@Deadosaurus Being successful and well written are two very different things just take a look at the fast and furious series all complete garbage but they make a shit ton
@@nathansteinfromarkham7109 it makes sense that if Frieza can't turn Broly he has no choice but to go to Cooler for help. And that is gonna lead to a lot of conflict between Frieza/Cooler so its got potential. But man, make golden Cooler have that sweet ass mask, not like in heroes.
DBS was already in a tough spot to begin with. It was a continuation of a franchise which had utterly obliterated any semblance of power scaling, thanks to DBZ. And when you need to jump universes to find new opponents, it's jumped the shark at that point. I don't think any narrative nuance could have truly saved it from the position it was in.
only rational reason i see in the comments, you sir have great understanding. and in my opinion it did really good considering the spot it had to start in, exceptionally good tbh.
Frankly it's amazing to me that, in a series where a core component of its lore is a magical wish-granting dragon, they can't come up with anything to handle the power creep and give us dramatic tension from a different source. They could make up literally anything to enhance, reduce, or even remove anyone or everyone's powers and abilities and explain it as "a wish made by this new character", and yet they just... don't. Granted it's not as subtle or nuanced as one would ideally like, but it's better than nothing, and I'd honestly prefer something that shrunk the gap, even temporarily, to what Super gave us: you know you've fucked up when the battle to save literal existence feels like it has smaller stakes than Vegeta and Nappa landing on Earth for the first time.
@@ArchangelSteve the dragon balls can't affect anyone stronger than Kami which is most people at this point.Funnily enough, that choice was made to increase tension by having an enemy they can't just wish away. The dragon balls could help reduce the heroes yeah but it would also be incredibly easy for the heroes to just use them. Besides, using the dragon balls to reduce the heroes power would be incredibly in your face and would literally undo years and years of character arcs.
You totally can ITS called "breakers" a certain character that can Reverse a process in this case we need a villian that can absorb/counter god forms and there you go
Everything is always around DBZ and DBS these days but nobody give attention and love to "Dragon Ball"... Sigh. DB is easily the best part (Dragon Ball isn't split into DB and DBZ in the manga). Best fights in the franchise, Martial Arts fighting style and not just Power Levels, spamming Ki attacks and new transformations... Akira's comedy gold talent and Goku being a *good, enjoyable and funny* character made the show great, where the secondary characters aren't sidelined (They still had a role during Saiyan Saga but Akira gave all his attention to Goku, Saiyans and Goku). I'm not hating DBZ and DBS of course, I love them for their style too (DBZ defined the anime world after all... It's legendary for its fights and style), but the first part is... special and magical, you can see Akira's love for it, then... well, he got forced to pull out new situations, enemies, changing plot points and such just for popolarity and fans' demands. He was free from his Editor's choices after Cell Saga, that's why Buu Saga is so bizzarre and fullfilled with comedy scenes, he found again the joy to draw and write again, but he was at his limit at end and he ended the series with Goku being Uub's master.
I'll also say in Dragon Ball, due to most of it having a light hearted tone, the serious and dramatic fights (SPECIALLY Piccolo Junior vs Goku) feel even more impressive. The happy go lucky tone disappears, and the characters fight to survive.
@@lostboy2637 Exactly as Leandro said, Android 17 has no stamina limit. He can keep fighting, and fighting. So long as he isn't destroyed. He can win any fight he is put in.
@@lostboy2637 DBS works with the idea than power levels don't care anymore, even in the manga Roshi almost use ultra instinct because he is a great martial artist, the ultra instinct itself it's not a power up about power level, it's about reaction speed and full control
I agree with you about Broly. I've always hated that he wasn't put into Dragonball Z canon. Now that they've reintroduced the character, they've given him a positive spin but he can still lose his consciousness with his heightened level. He's the perfect training partner for Goku, and should they ever perfect Uub, those two could easily carry on his legacy with Gohan leading the way.
SSJ3 was the worst used transformation in the series, because Tori made it obsolete since arrival, with the fusions and Gohan's ultimate form. That said, SSJ3 introduction was also way more spectacular than SSJB. For a moment there, Goku, just by the act of transforming, became an even bigger threat to the Earth than Buu. That said, and while the message and all that was very nice, to make justice to SSJ3, Goku should have won against Kid Buu at the end, no Genkidama involved. Or if anything, using it after Goku won, but Buu somehow survived and Goku was just too tired to beat him again.
The blue hair just looks so weird to me,I tried forcing myself to like it but I just can't,it jut looks like a complete downgrade from the crispy golden hair.
the anime and RoF really don't do it justice, I never really liked the colour but the darker blue in Broly actually makes it look really dope @@DjVader112
@@lenlimbo No fucking way dude, SSJ3 was probably the coolest transformation I had seen in anime history, Goku just looks utter badass. To elaborate, Goku loses a good bit of his good nature and becomes closer to his animalistic saiyan nature in that form, he is more ruthless and to quote Captain Ginyu "A killing Machine".
If Goku and Vegeta lose their God transformations like they're rumoured to, it would make for a really interesting dynamic if they have to learn from Broly to maintain the Oozaru power in "human" form like him. Would make for a good retcon for Super Saiyan 4 as well
Seeing as there was SSBKX10 you are right about not losing abilities and honestly after reading the first comment it got me thinking if the oozaru power form was mixed with the god form to take on more powerful opponents what's your opinion on it?
That would be such a mistake, dont go backwards in terms of power. That is pulling a GT, making Goku a kid because he was too strong by the time Z ended. Let things naturally progress and develop the God forms more like Super has been doing and now Ultra Instinct. We have those to focus on, just like in Z there was focus on Super Saiyan. In DB there was a focus on Goku becoming a great fighter.
This proves you're unaware of something fundamental in this type of videos... Context. How the fuck did you want him to show why Broly's reappearance is important now without giving us context? This isn't the sort of criticism that helps creators improve.
@@vlc-cosplayer are you admitting on having the attention span of a goldfish or something? Because that answer is precisely what's wrong with people, they need EVERYTHING fed NOW, not 5 minutes from now. That's just ridiculous, and kind of sad.
I totally disagree on the Separate Arcs point for Super, especially in relation to the Universe 6 vs 7 arc, and the Tournament of Power Arc. The Trunks/Zamasu Arc was totally disconnected, I agree, but with the reveal of Zeno in the aftermath of the U6 vs U7 Arc, with him wanting other universes to fight, that totally led to the TOP Arc. That was world building, at the expense of background storytelling for popular characters like Hit. The U6 Saiyans got expanded on a little bit with Cabba, but Hit is still a mystery.
Goku has always been strong because he's strong (Let Vegeta go, just because he wanted to fight him again..and lets be honest, probably Frieza as well deep inside). In Z, he could use the 'hero' card. In Super, he doesn't have that comfort and with great awkwardness has to admit his selfishness. Z always had the pretense that Goku's the hero, when it also showed he secretly loves conflict. I don't think Super Goku is a different Goku to the one in Z, but he can't pull that #protectorofearth bullshit anymore, and everyone knows it.
@@DekuStickGamer true! Goku always loved to fight, but in super he lies to his wife and ignores the invitation of his oldest friend because he wants to train at "king kai's place" He actively ignores the warning of one of the highest gods and disobeys him with a smile on his face.
I found Broly (film) miles ahead of the other two super films (which were themselves miles ahead, on a filmmaking level, of any of the other OVAs that came before) especially the non-fighting parts, which is astonishing from a DB film.
@@bbsj86 thats what i was thinking, he's not THE legendary suoer saiyan anymore. Hes just an exceptional saiyan that adapts to everything thats thrown at him.
He's not the Lssj though in Super. He's just some magical regular Saiyan who never fought anyone in his life and is magically stronger than SsB Goku without going Super Saiyan
As weird as it sounds, power scaling wasn't as much of an issue. At times the ToP felt like a numbers and feat scaling saga where the internal logic of the show was pushed to it's absolute limits which wasn't as prevalent in Z (the worst case being that Dr Gero could somehow make androids who were stronger than Frieza). It really takes you out of the experience when you're thinking "but there's no way he'd lose to that/ there's no way they could last this long"
I prefer dragon ball z because it's what I watched growing up. There's nothing more representative of my childhood than that show. No plot reasons, it just resonate my emotions.
Z was consistently better... It took Super around 35-40 episodes to finally get it's own identity. Re-doing the movies as the first 2 arcs wasn't needed at all. Once it got into the Zamasu arc, it felt like the series finally got going. There have been some good/bad episodes but some arcs were short and inconsistent when compared to Z. Z had long arcs and every episode always had something interesting happening even when it felt like filler. Super was amazing at the T.O.P but that's around 100 episodes into the series. Z was interesting from episode 1 when they had the conflict with Raditz. Overall I probably prefer Super at it's highs but it needs more consistency
I 100% agree with you although I do think that the reason we all enjoyed Z from episode 1 was because we knew the story of Dragonball and Z kept up the high standards, If Super had started at the tournament between Beerus and Champs, I think there would be less complaints as before then the stories we had all been told before and we was all let down with scrappy animation, something that gets fixed about 40 episodes into Super
They had to animate the movies into the anime since they are important to the story,so the producers didn’t want anyone watching Super to be confused due to not watching the movies
The stuff they added to the frieza arc was pretty good though. Just they executed poorly on the fight. Everything leading up to the fight was strong. If they had animated the fight better, people wouldnt have complained.
Daimon Shaw future trunks arc in süper was the most pointless insulting peace of Story telling I’ve ever witnessed in 20 years of living on this planet
@@Trxpamvs I have to disagree, the Goku Black/Trunks arc was my favorite arc to date. It had drama and a good story to back it up. I really enjoyed every bit of it and the suspense it drew.
What I liked the most was even though the script was cut in many places Broly's character development can be read through the fights without any dialogue or flashbacks
I think Super has some individually great moments, but Z is a better as a whole. I think Super's stories and overarching stories could be retold into something better, but the week to week run was a real grind.
@@BenDover-sd8yh It looks like a Pokemon fight. In Z you could feel every blow and it was brutal. I don' expect Super to surpass Z but it didn't meet simple expectations like a good fight in a decent arc.
What's Garlic Junior? The only time I've ever seen him mentioned was in that one episode of TFS's Dragon Ball Z Abridged where he was swallowed by Mr. Popo's black mist or something...
@@saalim5098 Oh, was it one of the things in og DBZ that was cut from DBZ Kai? That explains it. For the stuff in between Radditz and Cell I only watched Kai
Kinda late, but I just wanna point out. Neither the Dead Zone movie nor the Garlic Jr. Saga are canon. Therefore they don't disrupt the flow of the story in the manga nor in DBZ Kai.
What super needs.......hear me out Move to a later time slot so it’s not so PG in regards to blood. Goku got a hole blasted through him in the Trunks arc and there was NOTHING
Super needs a better story and needs way better characters and fixing the artstyle to more Takahashi or Shintani and have Shida's animation as the main look for the series.
I think Super needs to go back to the 90 episode saga structure that Z had. More fleshed out moments, a time to breathe (We need character moments like the characters hanging out at Kami's look out or Roshi's home to figure out strategies), more fights, and more time to flesh out am actual good ending. You can't do all pf that with the 30-40 episode structure most of the arcs had in Super.
@@WGray-k9p Broly's english voice actor was fired by Funimation over allegations that are yet to be proven true. His co-wokers like Sean, Christopher, and Monica threw him under the bus. Even if Broly's voice actor is proven innocent, his career is already ruined
Karan Rawat I understand where your coming from but the number and breadth of accusations is too much to discount. As well, If that was Sean, Chris and Monika’s experience then that’s not them throwing him under the bus. They need to pretend to be friendly as professional courtesy, but if there are allegations you can provide guidance on then that was their responsibility
Echo Gohan isn’t misunderstood all his fans just want him to be the ultimate saiyan hybrid, they just cant accept that Gohan isn’t a fighter. They can’t seem to comprehend that while the hybrids have loads of potential they don’t have saiyans drive for battle.
Dragon Jay Z so ...he’s misunderstood. That’s why I asked. Gohan fanboys/haters refuse to see him for what he has always been because of the Cell moment and are constantly ragging him for being himself instead of being some OP fighter focused on clapping ass. I just want to get a video with detail to shut that down since people don’t seem to understand that.
Here is the problem. When you follow a character like Gohan from being a scared little kid to being one of the most powerful characters and the hero of an entire arc, it is underwhelming, almost sad to see him be this wimpy little guy in a jump suit. Fans expected that Gohan would learn after seeing all of these threats to the Earth, that maybe he should stay in shape and try to be ready for the next threat should it arise. But no, he became a clown. Him being a clown as a teenager in the Buu Saga made sense, since he was 18 or so. But they made a point that he was still strong and had potential. But as grown man, knowing the potential threats out there and you're a clown like this. Very disappointing
KwameAdu 007 yeah and that’s why I asked because a lot of people ignore his character traits due to the amazing moments he had. People like you and I know that his character has always been the way he turned out but people still act as if he’s as battle prone as Goku.
Dragon Ball Super's writing became irrelevant the moment they've put the story after Buu and before Dragon Ball Z's ending basically removing any and all tension from any of the arcs as the stakes were known from the get-go. And this comes after Dragon Ball Z, a series that killed the protagonist in the first arc... This also limits character development. That gap where they've put the story is the reason Super was crippled.
Hardly. Beerus was an unknown quantity, Xenu has a penchant for ending universes and Zamasu nearly destroyed one all by himself after murdering Goku and his family. You can argue that DBZ is the better show without relying on fanboy butthurt.
@@BelowMeGoggle Still, we knew everyone will be okay by the end of the story Super presented and the universe we follow will remain there because DBZ's ending happened, we saw that everyone survived Beerus, Xeno, Zamasu and now Broly and since we know that everyone is going to be okay the story loses tension, fights are more for the spectacle and to push characters to higher power levels than they are about actual stakes... It also limits what writers can and can't do in terms of killing off characters and general character development, given that we already know where they will eventually end up. DBZ isn't without flaws and I'm not a fanboy, I simply state that writers were in a hard place to do anything of consequence given that the story of Super takes place in a time gap between the end of Buu Saga and DBZ's ending. The only advantage that is relevant to my point is the fact that Toriyama didn't have to frame Z's story to fit anything, he was free to explore all the possibilities, all the while Super is limited by what Toriyama wrote years back. In a way, Super is like filler, where nothing of consequence can happen given the restrains of the Z's ending, but a whole lot more free to explore new powers and abilities given Toriyama's approval and fitting within the specified story frame.
I'm sure a lot of it is dbz is more personal and nostalgic. But I think the main reason I prefer dbz, is the villians seemed more like a legit threat. And stakes seemed higher. People died. Frieza killed people before Goku won. And even thought the deaths are always ultimately meaningless, in the moment it feels like hope is lost. Like the villians is a real threat. Cell gave that same feeling. I just never feel that in super. I still like Super. I just like Z more.
@@nobblkpraetorian5623 To be fair, those are two legit threats out of five arcs. - Beerus is powerful, but he never stood as a true threat because he wanted a fight, nothing more, nothing less. - Frieza was just a returning baddie. A powerful one, no doubt, but he just stood a chance against Goku. Vegeta was still fresh when Frieza "won" by his minion wounding Goku when he let his guard down. The only tension was "how many people we are going to need to res when this arc ends". The answer is both "the whole Earth" and "Noone". - The tournament of the twin universes was just that, a tournament with no stakes at all. The worst that would have happened was that Earth would move to universe 6. - And while the T.O.P. had really high stakes, there was no focused threat. Sure, Jiren was powerful. More powerful than anything the main characters had faced before (included Beerus). But he didn't want to destroy universe 7, he wanted to protect his own. That's a big difference. So the only threats that really wanted to destroy Earth (the multiverse at the end, really) were Zamasu and Zamasu.
For me I think villians from Dragon Ball Z are badass. They're not just powerful but they had been shown to struggle, develop and become stronger just like the good guys. Super's villians are just guys trying to be edgy. The better ones like Jiren came way too late and he's actually a good guy with little to no distinct personality so nope.
Freeza was the only good Villain from DBZ, Buu was great but not until he became Super Buu and that took forever. Too many forms and way too much buildup. Great arc just so much "Oh Buu is different now and more people are dead or absorbed"
I loved the whole Saiyan backstory in DB Super: Broly, but I also REALLY don’t want this to be the beginning of Dragon Ball ONLY being about Saiyans Super already did that enough, we have existing characters to flesh out
@@titan5064 Only once was Piccolo stronger than a super saiyan, his fight with 17 and his fight with imperfect Cell were amazing but after that unfortunately he got sidelined just like every other non-saiyan...
I agree, and with Ultra Instinct being the goal to achieve now after the ToP, all the other characters have a goal the can also achieve because Ultra Instinct isn't race-specific, any race can use it. The only question then becomes, 'Will they use this?' and I hope they do, Piccolo, Krillin, and Gohan are really cool characters that should be utilized more.
Broly was so much better written than his first movie. Can be compassionate but when blinded by pure rage, cannot be controlled. Excellently written also plus some of the most creative animation I have seen. (That reality breaking fight was awesome)
30 minutes of plot one hour of punches screams and explosions, worth every second, the ability to tell stories during fights without recurring to flash backs is the gratest ability toriyama possess
@Firelord86 That would make sense. If Broly was at all related to Saiyans in anyway. He wasn't, beyond having their genes and growing up with his abusive but still caring father. Saiyans as a full number of super evil and crazy blood lover killers is as flat and uninteresting as it gets, and their rendition in the movie made me rather happy. There's always gonna be softies, and being a warrior race doesn't mean every single one must be roided out with rage and the need to kill or looking like they wanna fight with someone. Seeing Saiyans with guns was a pleasant surprise.
@Firelord86 What I meant was that besides having their genes, Broly was entirely unrelated to Saiyans. He didn't live with them, he didn't interact with them, he wasn't molded by their culture. The only mold he had was Paragus, who was an honest to God asshole but ACTUALLY cared for Broly. Broly is already very different to a normal Saiyan, and his upbringing had a lot to do with it. The fact that not every body may know how to shot a ki blast...? Let's be honest, the fact that every body could do it but had no clue about ki sensing or proper fighting techniques make it seem like they could do it... well, because. And that's stupid. Not to mention at no point did anybody say the Saiyans were more human. They are still an army force mobilized to genocide entire planets, King Vegeta still saw it fit to send Broly off to get killed in a planet. That they seem like an organized group then doesn't make me doubt how have they even remained alive, and doesn't make them less of a brutal warrior race.
@Firelord86 Indeed, interesting is subjective. But flat really is not. The Saiyans were supremely flat. The only one that showed a bit more substance was Bardock, caring so much for his crew.
I will say the filler in DBZ _(most especially in the Sayian Saga, particularly with the Goku, Chi-Chi, and baby Gohan flashbacks)_ did especially well to bridge Dragon Ball and DBZ together, as well as later filler doing well to bridge the Arcs together _(as they are at least referenced in some way, showing lasting consequence),_ and are also often funny _(looking at you, Driver's Test)._
most current fans didn't watch it. Proof is that when people like to say that goku's super characterization is basically his original db characterization are wrong. even as a kid, while he was ignorant, he never lacked common sense. I can bring up several scenes where kid goku had more insight than super goku.
@@powpowouchy5 "never lacked common sense" *proceeds to slap bulmas pussy to check for nuts* or like when krilling screwed with Goku cuz Goku was stupid and naive af. stfu, u obviously never seen dragon ball
1BuFo He was a kid never seen a woman until he met Bulma and thought everyone had penis. He couldn’t differentiate a woman from a man So, for him it was weird that she didn’t have penis. He even thought woman breast were butts. But DBS Goku comes not even close to Kid Goku. He doesn’t act like kid Goku. Here is just plain stupid even his face is stupid instead of an pure angelic face.
In my opinion the thing that dbz had that dbs didnt was purpose and emotion. For one, with Goku his only purpose for fighting in super is because he just wants to fight not to save anyone or anything. Number two is the transformations in z they are all so natural when they are first seen unlike in super which they are forced upon Goku out of seemingly nowhere. The only real example of there being true emotion in the show is in the Zamasu arc between Trunks and Mai, which was also pretty flat in my opinion (The emotion, not the arc, I very much enjoyed this arc and is probably my favorite arc in super) (EDIT) Lmao i wrote this before watching the video and i can see that this is pretty much what the video is saying.
People like to think that Broly is the DB counterpart to DC's Doomsday. But I don't think that is no where near close enough to be called "accurate". The only thing that they have in common is their abnormal abilities, far beyond the range of the average members of the Saiyans/Kryptonians. No. In my mind, The Dragon Ball counterpart to Doomsday would be Cell. For a number of reasons. -They were both created in a lab and not a normal organic being, they were genetically designed from scratch to get improved as they battle in different ways. -They both can tear through the good guys with ease. -Most importantly, they both succeeded in killing the main hero: Goku/Superman.
You're the first person that I've ever seen make that comparison... Along with that your sentence structure was a bit off at "But I don't think that is no where near close to be called "accurate".". By saying "I don't think that" your sentence now means that you do not agree with it not being near close enough to be called "accurate". When the rest of your text indicates you thinking the opposite.
To me, Super seemed more like an introduction to a more exciting series. It introduced a whole host of new characters, built a new cosmology, and powered up Goku and Vegeta with new forms they don't completely understand yet, but there was no universal upheaval, no serious threats. Zamasu came close to being one, but the threat he posed was for the most part limited to Future Trunks' timeline. The Tournament of Power shoehorned in a universal threat, but it's tough to take that seriously when the tournament disallows mortal combat, and we're told up front that the beings making the threat (the Zen-Ohs) aren't inherently evil. But at the end of the series the roster of "good guys" has extended to include not just the Z-Warriors but Hit, the Universe 6 saiyans, Jiren, and now Broly. Now we're waiting on a multiversal threat it will take all of them together to defeat, during which conflict all of these characters can really develop.
The Champa arc does end with a question though - it directly sets up the Universe Survival arc, the main difference is that there's an arc between them. I also thought that Super did sort of have the feeling of an extended overall story - it's about the Z-Warriors accessing the realms of the gods through befriending Beerus and Whis. Pretty much every arc spins off from that new relationship, except the Resurrection F arc (which sets up an element of the Universal Survival arc). Definitely not the same as Z, and I are with most of the rest, but I don't think the arcs are all disconnected.
Dragon Ball Super for literally its 90% of the time had Bad Animation Bad character drawings Bad power scaling Bad plot While Dragon Ball Z had all of its things decent and amazing There was rarely any bad or sloppy animation and there were thoughts put behind powerscaling You need to be an idiot to think that Dragon Ball Super is better in any way
@Liao Lyon Yes cuz they had a whole year and more to animate it Normal DBS cant produce a good looking normal episode in few weeks and sometimes even months While DBZ did it without a problem
I wasn't expecting you to put one of my primary complaints into a full discussion. I usually summed it up as 'Goku gets to go home and have dinner with his family after each adventure.'
I really like your analysis of Broly being something that is needed in Super moving forward, a character that can grow within the series from arc to arc, with his allegiance bouncing from Frieza to Goku to create an interesting dynamic of trust and loyalties. However, I think they have been sitting on that for a while now and have simply missed it. The problem with Super I think is that Goku and Vegeta have gotten so strong that all the original cast from Z have been left behind. They cannot keep up with the Saiyans, so they have to reach into other universes or other timelines to find worthy opponents, meaning that any character they find has to eventually be left behind for the arc as everyone returns home. Yes, some of them reoccur, like Hit and Kabba, but they are not part of the family. There are two characters on Earth that I think could have grown with Goku and Vegeta throughout Super, and they are Goten and Trunks. Goten and Trunks didn't really have an arc in the Buu Saga, they trained and learnt fusion, but in terms of character growth they were overconfident and childish boys, and by the end, they remained the same. They haven't learnt anything since then. They were refused as participants in the ToP due to this exact behaviour. It would be a perfect opportunity to have Goku and Vegeta assume the master role and whip them into shape over a handful of sagas just like Gohan was. Not to mention, their power levels, especially when fused, were rivalling that of Goku and Vegeta at the end of the Buu saga, yet they are only 8 years old. They definitely have the potential to keep up with Goku and Vegeta's power level and participate in the storyline. Imagine a Future Trunks Saga in which Trunks and Goten were able to help and the emotional dynamic that could have ensued. Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I know a lot of Gohan fans are upset by his portrayal in Super, but Gohan's arc has already finished in Cell Saga and that is OK. But I think they have been sleeping on Goten and Trunks for a while now, it would be nice to explore those characters more, in the same way, I am sure they will do so with Pan and Uub once that time comes around.
What about the first 11 minutes where he explains WHY Broly, his movie and his potential arc is important through parallel? Did you watch that part too?
I love super way more. Though it seems to lack of “excitement” as it used to have in dbz that made me sooo into the db world, but super has its own freshness and creativity. I love whole concepts which are introduced in dbs such as god of destruction, angel, zeno etc. And it shows many scenes of the gang’s everyday life that are so funny. It may looks not that deep or tense like dbz. But there’re a lot of amazing things that shouldn’t be overlooked~! 🌟
it remind me of many elements in db, the tournaments, this time they finished both of them unlike cell games or the one in majin boo saga, the new universes had unusual fighters that were weak but posses other skills like poison or invisibility and even magic, frieza return is just amazing, krillin proving he is not useless, he was the mvp in the TOP, kame being a badass again, the recruiting of the team to showcase what the other characters were doing, the weakest points in super, tenshinhan and majin boo, even gohan development was interesting with his field of study being ki
For me the arc that was disconnected was the Goku Black Arc. It barely tied to the Universal Arc, feeling more like a filler than a fully connected arc, with the only exception being that there is Future Zeno in the next arc but it's hardly acknowledged to the point you could say he was a clone and it would make just as much sense. They could fix that problem by having Trunks competing in the Tournament of Power in Roshi's spot for the Super Dragon Balls to revive his Timeline instead of having another Whis Deus Ex Machina.
What _is_ going to happen to Super anyway? Is it coming back? I always thought it was just this celebration of DB that got out of hand, but apparently the Manga is still going
John Morgan It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if they redid the Broly arc then did Moro I mean they get the same notes from Toriyama as the manga did so why the long wait for such a popular show
When I saw the Broly Movie something inside me just sparked and I shouted like a super sayain SO MANY NICE EFFECTS smooth animation and real good story. No wonder its best selling movie
I don't understand how anyone could actually believe that the Frieza saga connects more directly with the Android saga than any given part of Super. The beginning of the Android saga, with the reappearance of Frieza, has always felt incredibly clumsy. They basically said, "We need someone to job to Future Trunks... Who is a big bad ass?" Then pulled Frieza's return out of their ass. I also fail to see how the Buu saga is in any way connected to the Androids/Cell. The story of Super has been the story of the gods and cosmology of the Dragon Ball universe. All of the arcs consistently explore this, beginning with Beerus and Whis during the Battle of the Gods and Resurrection F arcs, and then moving on to the multiverse by introducing Universe 6. We then see that each universe has their own Supreme Kai, and how they relate to the Destroyers (a Destroyer is directly linked to its Supreme Kai; if one dies, they both do) within the Goku Black/Zamasu arc. We also see that the multiple timelines that were established in Z are taboo, for good reason, as the Future Trunks timeline introduces a second Grand Zeno to the timeline we know, leading to the Tournament of Power (also directly connecting to the Universe 6 tournament and the rest of Super, which has focused on the gods). Zeno's ability to casually wipe out universes in the Goku Black/Zamasu arc is the entire basis of the Tournament of Power. If you don't like Super, that's fine, but to say that the arcs aren't interconnected is foolishness and easily dismantled with only a few moments of thought. Super is likely more connected than the original Dragon Ball or Z ever were.
I usually don't say stuff like this, but this is a severely underrated comment. I don't think anyone can deny the connections Super has between its arcs given your statement, even if they could defend Z's connections.
I personally love both but I favor "z" more but for me super feels more dumbed down, for example if super was done in the z style of story and attitude it'd be way better than "z". Also there's another issue I have with super, I know other characters like tien krillin and piccolo can't fair in strength towards the saiyans, this might be heading towards fan-made territory but it'd be nice to have at least piccolo get some of that "toriyama power up" medication instead of basically being bitch made throughout the show; thats another reason why i don't like the buu saga that much they didn't use their large array of characters other than cameo moments (ex. Tien during buu saga).
The others being more weaker than the saiyans is not an excuse, since the 17 that lost to the base form of the cell and in the tournament of the power managed to fight against the jiren (sorry for my bad english)
@@vecturhoff7502 its just lazy writing not necessarily bad just lazy and it shows they only use those characters as last minute options when they remember that they exist
@@davionfowler2393 they should think of the characters as yamcha who stayed out of the tournament just so that the 17 entered (which I think very meaningless)
In Z, the stakes just feel so serious and higher (Well Early Z did). If Piccolo dies then Kami would too and the Dragon Balls will be gone. Its like "Damn we really need to defeat these guys or else they'll destroy the Earth and the Dragons will be gone" or "Damn we should really protect Piccolo or else the Dragon Balls would be rendered useless". In Super though, death means nothing. Whis can just go back in time and the Dragon Balls can just solve any problems (Well I mean in the Cell Saga, they made it so Dragon Balls can bring back people numerous times. Remember before Cell, the Dragon Balls could only bring a person back once and if they die again they can't be brought back). One thing I like about GT was that the dragon balls had drawbacks (i think it was like each time they made a wish, the negative energy grows bigger in the dragon ball). This was a result of the characters always using the Dragon Ball to solve their problems and at the end, learned that they should do things themselves and stop relying on the Dragon Balls to solve all their problems
Super is missing the heart that made Z so special, it really seems to me that it was more worried about making great action than making compelling stories
I don't know about Z and compelling stories honestly. Dragonball has always been more about action than story. Toriyama just really isn't a good enough writer to cook up a compelling deep story. He makes things up as he goes along. Honestly the most serious and compelling story we got out of Dragonball, to me, was the Goku Black Saga. But even then, it really isn't about the story. Dragonball has always been about two dudes punching each other, screaming and then shooting energy beams.
@@EskChan19 I get what you mean and I do think I could have worded it better, it's just that at least to me, I felt like in Z they were a hell of a lot better at balancing action with actual emotions
@@cynical4503 Hm... i guess. To be honest i felt like Super started very, very bad but got better as it went along, while Z started pretty good but stayed relatively at the same level. Generally i'd also say Z was better overall, but i'd lie if i said that the Goku Black Arc or the Tournament of Power didn't have some of my favorite Dragonball Moments ever
I love these type of videos. Please dont stop. Also the rest of your channel is great too. I think your channel is best, Not because the others are bad, Its just the format and quality you have.
During Cell Games Goku said "I'm not coming back because it seems the Earth is in more danger when I'm there compared to when I'm not, it's time the Earth got a much needed time of peace" Super Goku is completely fine putting the multiverse in danger for the sake of pleasuring his boner for fighting. Wtf is that. I compare Super to Fairy Tail and SAO, had tons of potential but utterly became trash.
Goku understands he could be involved to save people from Cell and other threats, and he chooses not to. He's an absolute bonafide idiot in Z. Worse-off than Super because his suggestion for the tournament of power is literally THE ONLY THING that ensures at least one universe can be saved from the Zenos, when they were already committed to destroying all of the universes underneath the threshold to begin with. It is entirely nostalgia and people outright misremembering how Z went down that make people think Z is superior to Super, when it's very clearly the other way around.
Admittedly they did some lame copouts to exonerate goku of responsibility for universal destruction. They did this by A. goku was warned many times by beerus how dangerous zeno is and he just kept trodding along like an ignorant idiot to excuse that. B. making him unaware of the tournament stakes until it was declared and he was told that asking them to call it off would get him killed (only now he takes warnings serious) C. claiming that universal destruction was going to happen anyway, except thanks to goku one would be spared in the tournament.
@Firelord86 No, Goku is a wrong idiot because Babidi doesn't want to come to Earth for Goku. He only wants to come to Earth to get as much energy as possible - which he can do so without Goku, and can easily get it now that Goku isn't there to stop him. @lakecityransom And they don't ever make an attempt to legitimately exonerate Goku of the destruction. The majority of the characters still feel it distasteful that Goku has such enthusiasm with the tournament despite the stakes of what it represents and that victory for their universe will still technically lead to the doom of 7 others. Super forces the characters to recognize how much of an idiot Goku really is and grant consequences that aren't so easily cleaned up even if they win by half-measures. There are numerous encounters in Dragon Ball Z that they only win by half-measures and still get away with it thanks to the easily-acquired powers of the Shenron Dragon Balls, like bringing any number of Goku or anyone else in the middle of an arc. Super guarantees that if they don't win the Tournament of Power, they don't get the Super Dragon Balls, and they don't get to bring their universe back. This and so many other conversations demonstrates how Dragon Ball fans have just categorically forgotten what happened in Z and are only going by nostalgia and fog-covered lenses to say that it's somehow better than Super.
I feel like at this point, since he is friends with gods, Goku is getting a little too cozy with these Other Worldly powers, and as such doesnt believe in consequence for his stupid decisions. The power goes to his head
You mean the Cell Saga where Goku gave Cell a senzu bean to heal him? Vegeta has gotten a lot of crap for giving villains too many chances because he wants bigger fights - but Goku is just as bad.
So, if Gohan has learned a new transformation (which is what was stated), and its development is handled correctly, then there needs to be an arc with those two at odds. After all, Broly, is the evil version of what we want Gohan to be in the story.
I recently watched the DBS Broly movie. I thought it would be good, but I couldn’t imagine how much I would love it (this is coming from someone who didn’t like the old Broly, who doesn’t like Super and who unironically loves GT). It has become one of my favourite DB movies. I would watch the sh*t out of a series centered around Broly, Cheelai and Lemo traveling through space and getting in trouble.
I honestly felt as a writer that the biggest mistake Super had up until the Broly movie was that much of any development was meant solely for a particular arc and nothing more. Granted, there are some who do develop throughout like Beerus, but other than him, we don't really get to see much of anyone since the arc is grounded in its own way (because marketing).
DBZ takes the prize by default because: A - Its pure Nostalgia Factor. No matter what comes along, DBZ is our childhood. And I've never seen anything myself that trumps something we so heavily identify with simpler times. B - DBZ was a frontier of the series. Going from whacky, gimmicky Dragonball which gives credit to being a spin off story of The Monkey King, to sweet fights, limit pushing, and roided, furious, burn out fight scenes, it was the penultimate action anime of its time, and is still attributed to inspiring many animes to this day. Classics never die. C - The Dragonball narrative has been exhausted. Depleted of freshness and originalty. (Yep. Jiren.) The story stopped mattering when Goku was the catch-all character for all plot points. (Aside from lightsaber trunks in the Black Arc, which as far as I'm concerned was just a gimme to wrap up a poorly thought out villain.) Remember how hyped we were when Gohan ascended his father and defeated Cell? There should have been more climaxes like that. Truth is, I think we grew up a bit with Super. Its not enough now to have the heroes get crushed over and over again only to find that "dormant inner power" and wipe the adversary. Ultra Instinct was just an Avatar State that wanted us to forget that Goku probably shouldn't have been standing, despite it triggering. Jiren should have had more weakness and vulnerability other than his "Lack of Trust" cliche. Everyone plotted and wondered about all the details of the Tournament of Power, expecting it to be some deeper part of Jiren's clouded strength and the nature of Goku mastering U.I. Instead, it was just...handed out like cheap punch at an office party. Nothing significant about it other than "Yep. Goku did it" and "Oh, he still got his boys behind him. That's probably handy." End of Super. "Friendship Wins" - Fairytale
Even as someone who doesn't usually care about that kind of stuff, the fact that Goku stood up around 4 times going, "Ultra Instinct just awakened within me!" Only to fall back down again an episode or so later feels so lazily handled.
DBZ gets padded with nostalgia too much honestly. I think part of the issue with Super is that the nostalgia of Z is used as a filter - it's not like the difference between Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z or even DBZ and DBGT where you know things are different from the getgo and thus treat each as sort of separate yet connected entities; instead Super is both a direct sequel and also a prequel to Z, picking up after the defeat of Buu and before the 'Peaceful World' mini-arc where Goku gets to encounter Uub. As such, folks expected, well, more of Z. Instead they got something that didn't feel or look exactly like Z, and as a result it was criticized from the getgo + held to higher standards than Z. Like for example there were a ton of animation/drawing flaws with Z but nobody cares to mention that because folks will only remember the good/greatest moments of Z and use those as the standard for Super to adhere to. Now while Z ended with potential hooks into the next arc, Toriyama wrote on a chapter-by-chapter basis and didn't seem to be doing that much planning ahead in comparison to Super. It's been brought up many many times, but Z was designed to where it could've ended after Frieza. The Saiyan Saga was the only actual saga/arc that had an actual need to continue the story past that point (because we needed to figure out how the heck they'd get everyone back without the dragon balls), whereas Namek and the Androids both ended on notes that were perfectly suited for ending points. Goku not wanting to go back to Earth was such a Goku thing - he wanted to go have fun exploring the cosmos and seeing what challenges he could encounter to better himself. Goku not wanting to come back to life was also a pretty obvious Goku thing - he realized he wasn't needed anymore and wanted to see what the Afterlife had in store for him. At the end of each of those arcs the story wrapped up nicely, we could be left to our imagination as to what would happen to Goku and the gang, and characters like Vegeta, Gohan, and Piccolo had satisfying personal growth. I also think that's unfair to claim that Super didn't have connecting points between arcs. Outside of the movies which were disjointed naturally, the Tournament of Destroyers sewed the seeds for the Tournament of Power arc; also the Tournament of Destroyers was one of the catalysts for Zamasu to become Goku Black, because he got to witness the strength of Goku (the one mortal to make him feel inadequate) and also learned of the Super Dragonballs which he heavily abused. It's just that there weren't big obvious chains like major characters being dead or Goku going away. Instead the transition between the Tournament of Destroyers and Future Trunks arc was very similar to how the Androids arc started off, where Trunks shows up and becomes an anomaly, and if the Future Trunks arc didn't happen then we would have naturally moved into the Tournament of Power arc much faster. Oh, and the end of the Future Trunks arc showed what Zeno was capable of, which became a major plot point for the Tournament of Power. It's also unfair to talk about the characters not developing/etc. when you're ignoring all of the characters in Z that also didn't develop - Raditz, Nappa, Cui, Guldo, Zarbon, Dodoria, Ginyu, Recoome, Dr Gero, Android 17 (didn't develop until Super), every Namekian not named Dende or Piccolo, Frieza (didn't develop until Super), Cell, Gohan's classmates that didn't become his wife... list goes on. The thing is that we've already got a main cast and they've already developed about as much as they can, save for possibly Vegeta whom we've been able to see more and more depth to as Super went on. But even by the Buu Saga there wasn't much character depth/development beyond Vegeta - everything else was mostly just characters being the same as they were, and the only 'growth' came from powerups or so on. Like I said, it's easy to look at Super and criticize it with the Z lens, which is pretty much what the basis of this video revolves around. But Dragon Ball Z didn't get held to that same lens with Dragon Ball, nor did GT get held to Z's lens in the same way that Super is being held to by fans who're 10+ years older than when they first watched and fell in love with Z. Broly is just refreshing because he's not the same one-shot one-dimensional villain as he was in Z, and actually shows promise to develop further IF they find a way to actually use him further without him just raging out every time.
I agree with most of this. You pretty much wrote everything I wanted to say. Shame it is so long and old (relative to the other comments) most people won’t read it.
1. Changing from one thing to another is NOT character development. Character development is the process of a character getting more fleshed out and 3D over time. Just because a character doesn't "change" doesn't mean they got no development, and just because they do change doesn't mean they are developing. Nobody in Shakespeare's plays or in most HBO dramas actually "changes", yet they have some most development in any work of fiction for example. Freeza never actually changed in Super. The most character development he ever got (that is, info and reflections on who he is as a person) was in the Namek saga. You are right about A17 though. 2. The Nostalgia argument/excuse has been debunked several times. Nobody who criticizes Super (and GT) thinks that Z nor even Early DB was perfect. They mostly criticize it based on the same OBJECTIVE standards that is applied to any work of fiction. And just because a flaw also existed in Z doesn't mean it is excusable in Super. 3. "It's also unfair to talk about the characters not developing/etc. when you're ignoring all of the characters in Z that also didn't develop - Raditz, Nappa, Cui, Guldo, Zarbon, Dodoria, Ginyu, Recoome, Dr Gero, Android 17 (didn't develop until Super), every Namekian not named Dende or Piccolo, Frieza (didn't develop until Super), Cell, Gohan's classmates that didn't become his wife... list goes on." Most of those are side-characters that were not intended to appear for long. Characters like that don't need lots of development. However, it is a problem when you MAIN and recurring characters get little-to-no development to justify their continued presence in a story.
I love this topic. Great video. I personally believe they kinda shied away from making lasting changes in DBS is because they were not yet sure of where they wanted to go with the End of Z checkpoint that DBS is leading up to. Like you, I sense this is going somewhere big, and they've made their decision and as unpopular as this may be... I hope they overwrite the EoZ to make it work with how DBS has played out. I can't wait for them to move beyond that (if they do) because then they have no restrictions.
- *Makes a 13 min video all about explaining/breaking down Broly* - *Only spends about 3 minutes actually talking about Broly himself* I know he was setting the stage and giving everyone context, and I’m fine with it. I just thought it was funny 😅
I like the video, but I think you're discounting a very different means of linking the Arcs of super, that isn't immediately apparent, and the ultimate culprit of this forceful change. Unlike Z which had a very easy lego brick style you listed having an intro bit that connects to the prior section, the core of the story, and then a hanging question which ties to the next saga's intro, Super had Hooks that would be left open, for future stories to tie back to. Let me Explain: Battle of Gods, introduces Gods of Destruction and Angels. This leaves a question of "Who appoints them, Who chooses them" and implies there may be a step above. This was present in the original Movie, but was never answered because Movie. But in the series, it is answered in the Universe 6 Tournament, finally meeting Zeno, who in his introduction seems to have no one above him, just a caretaker. Their interconnected-ness with the Kaioshin in the Future Trunks Saga. We also learn that Gods of Destruction train up replacements In the Universe Survival Arc. Resurrection F, According to the New Canon, Frieza always knew about Beerus, This leaves a question of "What did he think about this glutton cat of doom? What was he going to do about him in the future, before becoming aware of Goku's connection to the Kitty?" Again, present in Movie, but not answered because movie. In the series, this is elaborated on, Frieza's trainned to the point of defeating Goku, but after learning about this, he begins to plot overthrowing everything with the Super Dragon Balls in the Universe Survival Aarc, but instead has character growth. But then Super adds in question left for Gohan in the Resurrection F arc, by switching his near death to the death of Piccolo giving us a NEW hook, "With the loss of his mentor, Gohan realizes his rejection of fighting and even training cost a friend his life." This has the answer in Later Arcs where he DOES do some training on the side, but never enough and is still sidelined because he still hasn't fully accepted the responsibility yet. Yet when the chips are down, in the Universe Survival Arc/Tournament of Power, he shows he has stepped up and is still trying his best. In the manga (after this video was made) He fights against Moro's goons, and further more in DBS Super Hero, he seems to have come to a point where he realizes he must search for a better work-life-fighting ratio, after his daughter is kidnapped (Fake) and Piccolo (almost) dies. Multiverse Tournament, There are MULTIPLE other Universes with their own GoDs, angels and Kaioshin. And no they aren't all similar to the Main Casts' universe. There are other saiyans, and the biggest hook they have that people keep asking for is "Vegeta goes to visit other Universe's Saiyans." Zeno is introduced and Goku makes friends with him, and they talk about doing this Tournament thing again next time. This is tied back to from Future Trunks Saga where Zeno gives Goku the "DeusEx-Make-this-go-away button" and the It's used both to end Trunk's future, and to remind him of the Tournament, which becomes the Universe Survival Arc. The next major arc, the Future Trucks Saga, Opens the idea that 'GodTube' exists, meaning other Gods of Destruction and Kaioshin all probably watched the Multiverse Tournament, And it is the chief cause of Zemasu going insane in some versions of the arc. The major hook is that now the Present world has TWO Zeno, which causes the Exhibition match between 7 and 9, which brings the introduction of Toppo, and ultimately the Survival part of the Universe Survival Arc, and probably plenty more contention in the future. The Arc itself ties back to Original DBZ, by finally showing us what happened to that spare Time Machine (Cell's) as well as answer some other questions like "Did Babidi show up in Future Trunk's timeline" and "Why the Portara, which Shin said was permanent, not be permanent." The Final Arc, The Universe Survival Arc, gives us Buu's uncanny powers in a good setting, before sealing him away because his powers are literally too broken for the Tournament of Power. Frieza returns, shows his back-stabbing as usual, but then shows off his more dignified traits that have been missing from his character since he first showed up in Z. This ultimately culminating in his Character Growth that's later more developed in Super Broly, becoming less involved in Immortality, and just doing it for the kicks. We get the pay off on hooks for Goku's new power that were noted in the sections between Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, Gohan reversing roles with Piccolo, giving Piccolo some new development beyond becoming Green-granddad, remembering the weight of the lives he has always been carrying behind him, giving hooks to (Again, after this Video) DBS Super Hero, which he searches for a way to get more power unlocked, like how Guru did for the Earthlings. Vegeta takes new role as another flat character, but realizes he cannot become stronger by emulating Goku (The quintessential Flat Character) and instead chooses to forge his own path (leading to anime's Blue Evolution and Manga's Ultra Ego), while still retaining the heroic qualities he learned from Goku. But really, All of this change in how things are interconnected is something forced by Toriyama himself. The End of Z exists, and characters have to behave as they did for End of Z so they aren't really allowed to change. Gohan still becomes a Non-fighter. Piccolo remains on the sidelines. Vegeta, while cool headed, still wants to fight Kakarot. And worse all Goku still abandons his family at first chance it seems. With their hands tied, they had to retread old ground, even if they do some very minor changes to at least simulate growth.
“I’m a foot and a half taller than you but whatever.” “What was that?!” “I said I can’t hear you from down there.” “Speak up boy, I can’t hear you from up there!”
the main reason why Super has such a bad reputation compared to Z is because of the utterly garbage quality of the first episodes, people started cherrypicking every single poorly-drawn frame in the episodes to make it look like the entire series looks that bad. While I think the series eventually managed to put itself together the damaged was already done, there's too many people that won't give Super a second chance because they think the whole series look like episode 5(that episode where Goku turns into John Cena when he goes ss3), and even though I loved the Broly movie I still find hard to be 100% optimistic about a new weekly anime series since almost everything produced by Toei that is not a movie has below average art and animation.
If a new series does get made I think I would wait for the english dub. As someone who watched the Japanese version and is now re-watching it in English the episodes have been worked on and it looks a lot better.
Enzo Daniel I mean story, character development and pacing are the reasons that it keeps its poor reputation tho, like sure the usual responses will make fun of the animation but that’s not going to keep people from liking something, it’s manga gets shit on too for very similar reasons
watching this video again through the lens of the moro arc and the hints at broly that were dropped (plus the fact that the arc seems to literally happen right when goku teleports away from broly, and appears next to vegeta). i think the best course of action given the havoc moro caused, plus the looming threat of freeza is that goku should try to get broly recruited with the galactic patrol at the end of the arc... i feel like that can be a strong premise that would lead to the next arc smoothly. how will broly impact the galactic patrol? will they now gain confidence to fight back against freeza and his forces? will freeza's relationship with broly in the film affect the clash? how will broly and vegeta end up interacting once again?...etc.
Don't forget to leave a like or dislike! Let me know your your thoughts on Super!
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Totally Not Mark did you realise during the broly movie frieza was beaten up for 1 hour and a half
Hey Totally Not Mark I was just wondering if there were any plans for the TOP fights in ten words or less? I enjoyed the other videos like that and am looking forward to it.
If only Super wasn't so damn boring. The Goku Black arc will forever remain as the most interesting part of the entire series besides the concept of Ultra Instinct.
Everything else fell flat and HARD.
Battle hardened bloody fights? Gone. Now they fight and look like they're struggling but just having a good spar.
The Retcons are God awful. Should've kept potara fusion the same. It would've never been abused because Goku and Vegeta need the most rare excuse to fuse, and they don't even like it themselves.
But the absolute worst retcon in my eyes was the Saiyan latent ability. Before it felt like Zenkais were powerful, but not stupidly broken like they are now. WHY ARE GOKU AND VEGETA LITERALLY GETTING ANNIHILATED BUT IN A COUPLE SECONDS LATER AT NEAR FULL POWER??
Why are Caulifla and Kale wildly strong. Not even kind of strong. They are so strong that every single villain in Z is irrelevant to them by the end of the ToP. That is *wild.*
Super was gonna face these problems by continuously making Goku and Vegeta super strong, but its tragic how they tripped on the execution so bad. Hit? 1000 year old assassin. That's fine. Goku Black? Evil Kaioshin that takes Goku's body and adapts into it. Fine. Jiren? Random alien with generic backstory that made him the most OP being in the show besides Zeno? Trip. Complete trip. Especially when they give him a further boost on his already INSANE power.
Super felt so hollow. When it was cool, it was cool. When it sucked? IT SUCKED. I dont often think on what sucked in Z because, to me, it wasn't as blatant.
I liked the editing. Good video as always
Broly completed the Saiyan Trinity with Goku and Vegeta after Gohan got sidelined.
You are Right
DBZMacky as a gohan fanboy,.....your comment triggered me and hurt me at the same time.....
@@aizenthetrollking8583 imagine being a fanboy over an angry nerd
Titan I could agree with you on him being a nerd,but why angry?😂
Why would Toriyama want a focus on a filthy half breed, when Broly is a full blooded saiyan HAHAHA. Ok to be real I personally think Broly has more potential as a part of the Goku and vageetz club more than Gohan, love him but he’s kinda ran his corse is the main series.
"What's your power level? Mines pretty big"
Stop asking me that!!!!
8
Its over 21!
@@MournfulDust NO ONE CARES ANYMORE
...kakarot
The part I loved the most about DBS: Broly is the call me Kakarot scene, why? Because ever since raditz arrived goku denied he was a saiyan, a race of warriors that want to take over planets but, as observed through Z and super he started to accept it and since this was told through out a long time it worked well, very well since this is development but very subtle which caused it to be impactful..
Him accepting his saiyan heritage has never really been forshadowed at all really. It's really just a little fanservice
I see you’re trying to sound like totally not mark
Well if u notice after him and vegeta's fusion goku becomes a lil more prideful and vegeta becomes a lil humble
Puzzler shadow Yeah I feel the same way!
@@mudd7779 fanfiction fodder 👀👀
Gohan: ''I'm going to become badass again''
Broly: ''Step aside fool''
his power is maximumerester
@@mithmoonwalker AND NOW IT IS EVEN MAXIMUMERERER
Beast gohan: ello govna
“Princess Trunks...”
is a dirty boi
"You lied to me, you dirty boy!"
“Goku get me out of here! I mean it instant transmission right now!”
*That’s hot*
*"Please No..."*
"I don't normally accept sponsors but believe me: this one's worth it."
Translation: he getting mad cash
To be fair your going to need a vpn in Europe soooo...
@@sheogorathpatronofcheese4376 Well that vpn got hacked one time
@@sheogorathpatronofcheese4376 If you want to find the source of a problem, you must find who profits from it.
Who else thinks Broly deserves his own Saga?
Where he could be trained and mentored by Goku and become a Z warrior. He could be a great addition to the team
His movie should not be redone in DBS 2. It should kick off after that and do the planet eater MORO arc.
ContinentalArt I think he means his character arc.
@@gotham_knight1091 oh. That would actually make sense. My bad 😅
@@Redzilla54 that is exactly what they're gonna do
But broly...call me kakarot
(Why am I glad he said that at the end of the movie?)
Same dude, when he went like-
“But you, Broly.”
“Call me ‘Kakarrot!”
Me: 🥜
It’s likely due to the fact that for the first time in the entire series goku shows that he’s genuinely proud to call himself a saiyan while he did accept that he was one after freeza, he never showed any care or interest in his saiyan heritage likely due to his introduction of his own people being cruel malicious murderers like raditz and nappa (and caring only for fighting) but upon seeing broly, a saiyan that shows a sense of good will/ purity and bountiful potential , goku finally realizes that not all Saiyan’s are evil and cruel especially due to not having freezas influence in his life and as such he feels comfortable referring to him by his saiyan name (also this is a nice little potential reference to the original broly)
That made me so happy. And proud...
@@kingkirby1394 That is a very nice take on that.
@vDorgengoa thanks
I think Super did a good job making the characters feel more human, but the stakes were never as high and the villains felt less intense. There were also far less surprises in Super since Goku was basically beating all the main bosses again.
Goku losing Ultra Instinct at the end against Jiren and the return of Frieza and 17 for a teamwork showdown was a pleasant surprise. And I like that it wasn’t a transformation like the Super Saiyan; he had to work at it, lose it, master it, understand it, and it’s not a technique like Kaioken or a powerup like Blue. It’s a zone, a state of mind, which he needs to be pushed to the edge beyond stamina to maybe unlock.
@@michaeldeboer9940 I respectfully disagree. Ultra Instinct was basically just given to Goku by the writers and then taken away when they felt like it. He gets it out of nowhere and after the tournament is done he conveniently can't use it anymore. It was just a writing device to let Goku win anytime he needed too.
@TrueUnderDawgGamig Broly is thicc
But they're not human though, and that's why Super is trash. It took 20+ years of story telling and character building and tossed it all out the window. Vegeta cooking eggs with an apron?
@@PermanentHigh So?
Who else’s loves Marks thumbnails?
Meeeeeeee.
They’re phenomenal
RIGHT?! They feel so aged. It's cool.
His fanart is great
i want shirts
With Dragonball Z, at least we didn't need to ask the question "Is Goku the real villain of the series?" Broly made Goku act like a good person again.
This is because in Super the writers forgot how to write conversations in a natural and realistic way - not that they were ever perfect in that regard in DBZ - and in Broly the dialogue is so perfectly on point that the characters are pretty much just having normal conversations.
Of course, this is just my experience having watched DBZ dubbed, then watching Buu arc + Super Subbed first then Dubbed as it caught up, so I have no idea if the dialogue is less stilted if you comprehend Japanese.
Also, I think some anime tropes started sneaking their way in with Super, and Broly has almost none.
Long story short, we need Toriyama to keep holding the reigns.
@@zeph6182 It's also because they seem to think it's funny to make Goku into more of a joke character. This is something that Broly did fix, a bit.
@@TheHylden Broly didn't fix dragon ball super's Goku, he just took the focus off of DBS Goku, every time a new enemy shows up, they either start off evil then turn good, or are just evil for the sake of being evil. Broly, on the other hand, was like a confused man who was pure but also mislead by his father, making the fans much more focused on Broly.
Just Some Guy with a Mustache the manga handles goku waaaaay better. I get it goku isn’t this Superman character but he also isn’t this idiot that doesn’t care for anything but fighting. It’s such a cop out now a days and overused in dragon ball for goku.
It's almost like toriyama didn't write Super or something, but he wrote Broly.
Almost...
"What's dbs missing?"
Blood.
i. Need. More. BLOOD.
If you want Blood go read the manga .
Shadow Knight Jesus you sound like a psychopath xD But I agree tho. Why do they not have blood in the anime?
@@gotham_knight1091 industry wanted it to be more child friendly or something like that. That's why there's only the lame scratch marks now
Blood is just edgy, and mostly not needed.
@@3twibles4sweetrevenge it makes everything look more serious and gives tension. Imagine vegeta vs freezer on namek without blood.
Your toriyama style thumbnails make me so happy, broly looks amazing!
Lol that looks like Masaki Satos work
It looks like minoru maeda's style
ehh, more maeda
Look at the nose
333 likes.
I don't know it might have been because I was a little kid back then but Dragon Ball Z felt a bit more mature and serious where as Dragon Ball Super felt like it was a kids show, Also one thing Dragon Ball Z did was it took risks where Dragon Ball Super was just about pleasing the fans.
What risks did Z take that isn't covered by the dragon balls covering it up again?
That's cuz super is for kids dbz was not
@@akkere4052 They were covered by the dragon balls yes, but they were risks nonetheless
dragon ball super killed off future trunks entire timeline thats not a risk?
@RexFaceLess
Risks that are completely and totally covered aren't risks at all. That's literally not what a risk is.
The acquisition of the dragon balls is completely and totally trivialized to a 2-5 minute segment where a wish can just get churned out in the midst of Z. Super at the very least was self-aware of this and made it so the risks taken were scaled up and that the power needed to undo the risks required a set of dragon balls that hadn't been trivialized at all, thanks to it requiring you to scour TWO UNIVERSES rather than a single planet that even Bulma could fly across with ease.
I think Z is better, but the new Broly movie is my favorite Dragon Ball related thing ever.
That's because you're brain is slow and all you can understand is simple action scenes.
Bane l It’s called an opinion
@@xanderlaskey2753 oh be quiet dragon ball super broly was a successful movie and u know that
@@Deadosaurus Being successful and well written are two very different things just take a look at the fast and furious series all complete garbage but they make a shit ton
@@xanderlaskey2753 You cant even use "your" correctly and you're saying his brain is slow🤦♂️
That's if toriyama don't forget about him..
I really hope that Broly doesn't end up like uub, just mysteriously disappears, completely forgotten about.
Or like Launch
@@comment-chan8750 lol
After the new Broly movie , it's imposible ,
@@keplen3073
Which also happened to Launch...
Still find it hard to believe toriyama took probably one of my most hated characters and made him into one of my favorites
Same here i hated brolys guts before
The secret? Give him actual character
Jim Jim who?
ikr i'm sold on new Broly
there's potential for development there hopefully Toei doesn't screw it
Broly have always been one of the most favourite characters from the franchise
Years ago if someone told me that broly was gonna save Dragon ball I'd never let him live it down, but now I'd buy him beer.
Hope that means we can see other movie characters in the future. Maybe Cooler.
@@nathansteinfromarkham7109 it makes sense that if Frieza can't turn Broly he has no choice but to go to Cooler for help. And that is gonna lead to a lot of conflict between Frieza/Cooler so its got potential. But man, make golden Cooler have that sweet ass mask, not like in heroes.
And some nibbles to go with the beer
Broly=broccoli title:broly the missing ingredient = broccoli the missing ingredient
Pretty much just copied the joke from the end of the video
Kakarrot Carrot
Vegeta Vegetable
Raditz Raddish
Broly Broccoli
Kaulifla Cauliflour
Kale *Kale*
Your expired Contract My soup will never be the same
Joel Union Tarble Vegetable
Bardock Burdock
Totapo Potato
Beets Beets
Cabba Cabbage
Sleypar Parsley
Gine Negi
Leek Leek
Nappa Nappa
Paragus Asparagus
Pambukin Pumpkin
Toma Tomato
Taro Taro
Turles Lettuce
@Calvin Schuster that's because half the characters are saiyans, my friend
DBS was already in a tough spot to begin with. It was a continuation of a franchise which had utterly obliterated any semblance of power scaling, thanks to DBZ. And when you need to jump universes to find new opponents, it's jumped the shark at that point. I don't think any narrative nuance could have truly saved it from the position it was in.
only rational reason i see in the comments, you sir have great understanding.
and in my opinion it did really good considering the spot it had to start in, exceptionally good tbh.
Frankly it's amazing to me that, in a series where a core component of its lore is a magical wish-granting dragon, they can't come up with anything to handle the power creep and give us dramatic tension from a different source. They could make up literally anything to enhance, reduce, or even remove anyone or everyone's powers and abilities and explain it as "a wish made by this new character", and yet they just... don't. Granted it's not as subtle or nuanced as one would ideally like, but it's better than nothing, and I'd honestly prefer something that shrunk the gap, even temporarily, to what Super gave us: you know you've fucked up when the battle to save literal existence feels like it has smaller stakes than Vegeta and Nappa landing on Earth for the first time.
@@ArchangelSteve the dragon balls can't affect anyone stronger than Kami which is most people at this point.Funnily enough, that choice was made to increase tension by having an enemy they can't just wish away. The dragon balls could help reduce the heroes yeah but it would also be incredibly easy for the heroes to just use them. Besides, using the dragon balls to reduce the heroes power would be incredibly in your face and would literally undo years and years of character arcs.
Steve of the Dead didn’t people get mad when they did that for gt?
You totally can
ITS called "breakers" a certain character that can Reverse a process in this case we need a villian that can absorb/counter god forms and there you go
Everything is always around DBZ and DBS these days but nobody give attention and love to "Dragon Ball"... Sigh.
DB is easily the best part (Dragon Ball isn't split into DB and DBZ in the manga).
Best fights in the franchise, Martial Arts fighting style and not just Power Levels, spamming Ki attacks and new transformations... Akira's comedy gold talent and Goku being a *good, enjoyable and funny* character made the show great, where the secondary characters aren't sidelined (They still had a role during Saiyan Saga but Akira gave all his attention to Goku, Saiyans and Goku).
I'm not hating DBZ and DBS of course, I love them for their style too (DBZ defined the anime world after all... It's legendary for its fights and style), but the first part is... special and magical, you can see Akira's love for it, then... well, he got forced to pull out new situations, enemies, changing plot points and such just for popolarity and fans' demands. He was free from his Editor's choices after Cell Saga, that's why Buu Saga is so bizzarre and fullfilled with comedy scenes, he found again the joy to draw and write again, but he was at his limit at end and he ended the series with Goku being Uub's master.
DBZ > DB > DBGT > DBS
I'll also say in Dragon Ball, due to most of it having a light hearted tone, the serious and dramatic fights (SPECIALLY Piccolo Junior vs Goku) feel even more impressive. The happy go lucky tone disappears, and the characters fight to survive.
@@TheBIGMatthew182 DB > DBZ ≥ DBS > DBGT
I fixed it for you.
@@EnrocaLaRoca I was saying for quality not in timeline order xD
@@TheBIGMatthew182 I know. As I said: I fixed it for you.
Am i the only one who just loves the thumbnails they look so clean
Android 17 changed because of Android 16 and his love for mother nature.
and somehow became as strong as blue goku, DBS power levels my ass
@@lostboy2637 No he didn't. Just because he can use powerful techniques doesn't mean he's stronger than Goku.
@@lostboy2637 Exactly as Leandro said, Android 17 has no stamina limit. He can keep fighting, and fighting. So long as he isn't destroyed. He can win any fight he is put in.
@Luke Wilson Where did people get that idea?
@@lostboy2637 DBS works with the idea than power levels don't care anymore, even in the manga Roshi almost use ultra instinct because he is a great martial artist, the ultra instinct itself it's not a power up about power level, it's about reaction speed and full control
I agree with you about Broly. I've always hated that he wasn't put into Dragonball Z canon. Now that they've reintroduced the character, they've given him a positive spin but he can still lose his consciousness with his heightened level. He's the perfect training partner for Goku, and should they ever perfect Uub, those two could easily carry on his legacy with Gohan leading the way.
I'm glad he was never part of A canon. If they made him canon back then he would have been meathead Broly and we never would have gotten Super Broly.
I agree about Super Saiyan Blue, but let's not pretend that Super Saiyan 3 was actually built up.
SSJ3 was the worst used transformation in the series, because Tori made it obsolete since arrival, with the fusions and Gohan's ultimate form.
That said, SSJ3 introduction was also way more spectacular than SSJB. For a moment there, Goku, just by the act of transforming, became an even bigger threat to the Earth than Buu. That said, and while the message and all that was very nice, to make justice to SSJ3, Goku should have won against Kid Buu at the end, no Genkidama involved. Or if anything, using it after Goku won, but Buu somehow survived and Goku was just too tired to beat him again.
The blue hair just looks so weird to me,I tried forcing myself to like it but I just can't,it jut looks like a complete downgrade from the crispy golden hair.
Wdym it took 5 minutes to build up??? Lmao
the anime and RoF really don't do it justice, I never really liked the colour but the darker blue in Broly actually makes it look really dope @@DjVader112
@@lenlimbo No fucking way dude, SSJ3 was probably the coolest transformation I had seen in anime history, Goku just looks utter badass.
To elaborate, Goku loses a good bit of his good nature and becomes closer to his animalistic saiyan nature in that form, he is more ruthless and to quote Captain Ginyu "A killing Machine".
If Goku and Vegeta lose their God transformations like they're rumoured to, it would make for a really interesting dynamic if they have to learn from Broly to maintain the Oozaru power in "human" form like him. Would make for a good retcon for Super Saiyan 4 as well
Seeing as there was SSBKX10 you are right about not losing abilities and honestly after reading the first comment it got me thinking if the oozaru power form was mixed with the god form to take on more powerful opponents what's your opinion on it?
@Anderson Dalmeus Goku never stopped using Kaioken, he just uses it in a non perceptive way.
@@benjijoshu4708 I think Goku explained when fighting Hit that SSB requires perfect ki control which is why he could stack kaioken on top of it.
That would be such a mistake, dont go backwards in terms of power. That is pulling a GT, making Goku a kid because he was too strong by the time Z ended. Let things naturally progress and develop the God forms more like Super has been doing and now Ultra Instinct. We have those to focus on, just like in Z there was focus on Super Saiyan. In DB there was a focus on Goku becoming a great fighter.
@@jeffl4663 He did exactly that, stating this can easily kill him if he fucks up
In a video about broly it took 11 minutes to mention broly
yea
Ikr.
This proves you're unaware of something fundamental in this type of videos... Context. How the fuck did you want him to show why Broly's reappearance is important now without giving us context? This isn't the sort of criticism that helps creators improve.
@@vlc-cosplayer are you admitting on having the attention span of a goldfish or something? Because that answer is precisely what's wrong with people, they need EVERYTHING fed NOW, not 5 minutes from now. That's just ridiculous, and kind of sad.
@@vlc-cosplayer another stereotyped answer ahahaha. Why is my previous reply more angry than the one you made before? Just get real, grow up lol
I totally disagree on the Separate Arcs point for Super, especially in relation to the Universe 6 vs 7 arc, and the Tournament of Power Arc.
The Trunks/Zamasu Arc was totally disconnected, I agree, but with the reveal of Zeno in the aftermath of the U6 vs U7 Arc, with him wanting other universes to fight, that totally led to the TOP Arc.
That was world building, at the expense of background storytelling for popular characters like Hit. The U6 Saiyans got expanded on a little bit with Cabba, but Hit is still a mystery.
Dbz: I'm strong bc I want to protek!
Dbs: I'm strong bc I'm strong!
Goku has always been strong because he's strong (Let Vegeta go, just because he wanted to fight him again..and lets be honest, probably Frieza as well deep inside). In Z, he could use the 'hero' card. In Super, he doesn't have that comfort and with great awkwardness has to admit his selfishness. Z always had the pretense that Goku's the hero, when it also showed he secretly loves conflict. I don't think Super Goku is a different Goku to the one in Z, but he can't pull that #protectorofearth bullshit anymore, and everyone knows it.
@@DekuStickGamer this.
@Harpia Produções I know. But super doesn't sugarcoat it at all. He's almost evil or dangerous sometimes.
@@DekuStickGamer true! Goku always loved to fight, but in super he lies to his wife and ignores the invitation of his oldest friend because he wants to train at "king kai's place"
He actively ignores the warning of one of the highest gods and disobeys him with a smile on his face.
@@DekuStickGamer He does give Cell a sensu... and let's frieza live. Twice.
It wasn't very hard to create a better Broly than the big baby we had before.
meh
Ye but looks like creating, not a better movie than the previous one, but just an actual decent movie was too hard
I found Broly (film) miles ahead of the other two super films (which were themselves miles ahead, on a filmmaking level, of any of the other OVAs that came before) especially the non-fighting parts, which is astonishing from a DB film.
@@Akatsukileader9 I agree with you, still doesn't make it a good movie though, just a long fight sequence
I mean sure, Dragon Ball will never ever have a film that's even comparable to like a Scorsese film, we have to compare them with each other, at best.
This looks like a good spot to find some ingredients
my thoughts exactly
Donald Zettaflare Roasts Brorly🔥🔥🔥
Literally came here to find this comment. Thank you.
Donald i swear
I KNOW WHAT TO DO!!
one does not merely call him by his name you've got to say the whole thing Broly The Legendary Super Saiyan
But that's not his name in super though
@@bbsj86 thats what i was thinking, he's not THE legendary suoer saiyan anymore.
Hes just an exceptional saiyan that adapts to everything thats thrown at him.
He's not the Lssj though in Super. He's just some magical regular Saiyan who never fought anyone in his life and is magically stronger than SsB Goku without going Super Saiyan
He is a saiyan freak like Kale universe 6
Why do you prefer Dragon Ball Z or Dragon Ball Super?
Easy... Dragon Ball super sucks
Vic Mignogna
DBZ was better till the Cell saga. I'd choose Super over the Buu saga any day.
As weird as it sounds, power scaling wasn't as much of an issue. At times the ToP felt like a numbers and feat scaling saga where the internal logic of the show was pushed to it's absolute limits which wasn't as prevalent in Z (the worst case being that Dr Gero could somehow make androids who were stronger than Frieza).
It really takes you out of the experience when you're thinking "but there's no way he'd lose to that/ there's no way they could last this long"
I prefer dragon ball z because it's what I watched growing up. There's nothing more representative of my childhood than that show. No plot reasons, it just resonate my emotions.
Z was consistently better... It took Super around 35-40 episodes to finally get it's own identity. Re-doing the movies as the first 2 arcs wasn't needed at all. Once it got into the Zamasu arc, it felt like the series finally got going. There have been some good/bad episodes but some arcs were short and inconsistent when compared to Z. Z had long arcs and every episode always had something interesting happening even when it felt like filler. Super was amazing at the T.O.P but that's around 100 episodes into the series. Z was interesting from episode 1 when they had the conflict with Raditz. Overall I probably prefer Super at it's highs but it needs more consistency
didnt expect to see you here
I 100% agree with you although I do think that the reason we all enjoyed Z from episode 1 was because we knew the story of Dragonball and Z kept up the high standards, If Super had started at the tournament between Beerus and Champs, I think there would be less complaints as before then the stories we had all been told before and we was all let down with scrappy animation, something that gets fixed about 40 episodes into Super
They had to animate the movies into the anime since they are important to the story,so the producers didn’t want anyone watching Super to be confused due to not watching the movies
The stuff they added to the frieza arc was pretty good though. Just they executed poorly on the fight. Everything leading up to the fight was strong. If they had animated the fight better, people wouldnt have complained.
Hopefully, they can keep the good story arcs going and get Shintani on board for animation.
Dragon Ball: Consistently good.
Dragon Ball Z: Amazing highs, mediocre lows.
Dragon Ball GT: Great highs, HORRIBLE lows.
Dragon Ball Super: Good highs, bad lows.
Daimon Shaw future trunks arc in süper was the most pointless insulting peace of Story telling I’ve ever witnessed in 20 years of living on this planet
@@Trxpamvs I have to disagree, the Goku Black/Trunks arc was my favorite arc to date. It had drama and a good story to back it up. I really enjoyed every bit of it and the suspense it drew.
I'm eViL gOkU woW
Imo the highs of Super were better than GT
it's about the execution of the idea rather than the idea itself. @@Wildstar5267
What I liked the most was even though the script was cut in many places Broly's character development can be read through the fights without any dialogue or flashbacks
I think Super has some individually great moments, but Z is a better as a whole. I think Super's stories and overarching stories could be retold into something better, but the week to week run was a real grind.
What does Z have that that Super doesn't?
Testosterone and Super Kami Guru
*flashbacks to vegeta wearing an apron cooking for a sphynx cat and his gay babysitter
...the horror
Naaaaaaaail... Naaaaaaiiil
Also a better story and a bond with the characters. Goku always used to humble fans and try to be kind like him but in Super he's terrible and stupid.
Have you heard of blood? In super they seem like they are playing instead of fighting
@@BenDover-sd8yh It looks like a Pokemon fight. In Z you could feel every blow and it was brutal. I don' expect Super to surpass Z but it didn't meet simple expectations like a good fight in a decent arc.
I love the original soundtrack of DBZ
Do you know the song at 2:06?
Anyone who can type english that sounds Japanese finish what I start
_Cha la, head cha la_
Joel Union Egao urutora zetto de
Kyô mo ai-yai-yai-yai-yai!
I got u after 5 months of nobody replying ;)
“Arcs didn’t seem disconnected”
Garlic junior saga has entered the chat.
What's Garlic Junior? The only time I've ever seen him mentioned was in that one episode of TFS's Dragon Ball Z Abridged where he was swallowed by Mr. Popo's black mist or something...
Alex Knauth firstly, he was the villain in the first DBZ movie, Dead Zone. He also had a filler arc in the original DBZ.
@@saalim5098 Oh, was it one of the things in og DBZ that was cut from DBZ Kai? That explains it. For the stuff in between Radditz and Cell I only watched Kai
Kinda late, but I just wanna point out.
Neither the Dead Zone movie nor the Garlic Jr. Saga are canon. Therefore they don't disrupt the flow of the story in the manga nor in DBZ Kai.
What super needs.......hear me out
Move to a later time slot so it’s not so PG in regards to blood.
Goku got a hole blasted through him in the Trunks arc and there was NOTHING
Jonathan Barrow it needs to end
That's valid criticism, but the least of Dragon Ball's problems right now.
Super needs a better story and needs way better characters and fixing the artstyle to more Takahashi or Shintani and have Shida's animation as the main look for the series.
I think Super needs to go back to the 90 episode saga structure that Z had. More fleshed out moments, a time to breathe (We need character moments like the characters hanging out at Kami's look out or Roshi's home to figure out strategies), more fights, and more time to flesh out am actual good ending. You can't do all pf that with the 30-40 episode structure most of the arcs had in Super.
Broly, the missing ingredient: The voice actor
???
@@WGray-k9p r/whooosh
@@WGray-k9p Broly's english voice actor was fired by Funimation over allegations that are yet to be proven true.
His co-wokers like Sean, Christopher, and Monica threw him under the bus. Even if Broly's voice actor is proven innocent, his career is already ruined
Karan Rawat I understand where your coming from but the number and breadth of accusations is too much to discount. As well, If that was Sean, Chris and Monika’s experience then that’s not them throwing him under the bus. They need to pretend to be friendly as professional courtesy, but if there are allegations you can provide guidance on then that was their responsibility
general_nucleus whoosh is for taking jokes seriously he just doesn’t know what’s going on
Can you do a “Gohan: Misunderstood” next?
Echo Gohan isn’t misunderstood all his fans just want him to be the ultimate saiyan hybrid, they just cant accept that Gohan isn’t a fighter. They can’t seem to comprehend that while the hybrids have loads of potential they don’t have saiyans drive for battle.
"Gohan isn't misunderstood, here's why Gohan's misunderstood."
Dragon Jay Z so ...he’s misunderstood. That’s why I asked. Gohan fanboys/haters refuse to see him for what he has always been because of the Cell moment and are constantly ragging him for being himself instead of being some OP fighter focused on clapping ass. I just want to get a video with detail to shut that down since people don’t seem to understand that.
Here is the problem. When you follow a character like Gohan from being a scared little kid to being one of the most powerful characters and the hero of an entire arc, it is underwhelming, almost sad to see him be this wimpy little guy in a jump suit. Fans expected that Gohan would learn after seeing all of these threats to the Earth, that maybe he should stay in shape and try to be ready for the next threat should it arise. But no, he became a clown. Him being a clown as a teenager in the Buu Saga made sense, since he was 18 or so. But they made a point that he was still strong and had potential. But as grown man, knowing the potential threats out there and you're a clown like
this. Very disappointing
KwameAdu 007 yeah and that’s why I asked because a lot of people ignore his character traits due to the amazing moments he had. People like you and I know that his character has always been the way he turned out but people still act as if he’s as battle prone as Goku.
"Once it returns later this year" Yea about that
Dragon Ball Super's writing became irrelevant the moment they've put the story after Buu and before Dragon Ball Z's ending basically removing any and all tension from any of the arcs as the stakes were known from the get-go. And this comes after Dragon Ball Z, a series that killed the protagonist in the first arc... This also limits character development. That gap where they've put the story is the reason Super was crippled.
^^^THIS^^^
Nevermore Great point 👍
Dragon Ball Super is a very long DLC of the Buu Saga
Hardly. Beerus was an unknown quantity, Xenu has a penchant for ending universes and Zamasu nearly destroyed one all by himself after murdering Goku and his family. You can argue that DBZ is the better show without relying on fanboy butthurt.
@@BelowMeGoggle Still, we knew everyone will be okay by the end of the story Super presented and the universe we follow will remain there because DBZ's ending happened, we saw that everyone survived Beerus, Xeno, Zamasu and now Broly and since we know that everyone is going to be okay the story loses tension, fights are more for the spectacle and to push characters to higher power levels than they are about actual stakes... It also limits what writers can and can't do in terms of killing off characters and general character development, given that we already know where they will eventually end up.
DBZ isn't without flaws and I'm not a fanboy, I simply state that writers were in a hard place to do anything of consequence given that the story of Super takes place in a time gap between the end of Buu Saga and DBZ's ending. The only advantage that is relevant to my point is the fact that Toriyama didn't have to frame Z's story to fit anything, he was free to explore all the possibilities, all the while Super is limited by what Toriyama wrote years back. In a way, Super is like filler, where nothing of consequence can happen given the restrains of the Z's ending, but a whole lot more free to explore new powers and abilities given Toriyama's approval and fitting within the specified story frame.
I'm sure a lot of it is dbz is more personal and nostalgic. But I think the main reason I prefer dbz, is the villians seemed more like a legit threat. And stakes seemed higher. People died. Frieza killed people before Goku won. And even thought the deaths are always ultimately meaningless, in the moment it feels like hope is lost. Like the villians is a real threat. Cell gave that same feeling. I just never feel that in super. I still like Super. I just like Z more.
You don't think Goku Black and Zamasu are threats?
@@nobblkpraetorian5623 To be fair, those are two legit threats out of five arcs.
- Beerus is powerful, but he never stood as a true threat because he wanted a fight, nothing more, nothing less.
- Frieza was just a returning baddie. A powerful one, no doubt, but he just stood a chance against Goku. Vegeta was still fresh when Frieza "won" by his minion wounding Goku when he let his guard down. The only tension was "how many people we are going to need to res when this arc ends". The answer is both "the whole Earth" and "Noone".
- The tournament of the twin universes was just that, a tournament with no stakes at all. The worst that would have happened was that Earth would move to universe 6.
- And while the T.O.P. had really high stakes, there was no focused threat. Sure, Jiren was powerful. More powerful than anything the main characters had faced before (included Beerus). But he didn't want to destroy universe 7, he wanted to protect his own. That's a big difference.
So the only threats that really wanted to destroy Earth (the multiverse at the end, really) were Zamasu and Zamasu.
Its rlly not big threats when you realize all of this takes place b4 the ending of Z
For me I think villians from Dragon Ball Z are badass.
They're not just powerful but they had been shown to struggle, develop and become stronger just like the good guys.
Super's villians are just guys trying to be edgy.
The better ones like Jiren came way too late and he's actually a good guy with little to no distinct personality so nope.
Freeza was the only good Villain from DBZ, Buu was great but not until he became Super Buu and that took forever. Too many forms and way too much buildup. Great arc just so much "Oh Buu is different now and more people are dead or absorbed"
I loved the whole Saiyan backstory in DB Super: Broly, but I also REALLY don’t want this to be the beginning of Dragon Ball ONLY being about Saiyans
Super already did that enough, we have existing characters to flesh out
I mean they did emphasize on other characters as well , unlike z who rendered every non super saiyan useless
@@titan5064 "oh look it's Tien! What, is Krillin busy?"
@@titan5064 Only once was Piccolo stronger than a super saiyan, his fight with 17 and his fight with imperfect Cell were amazing but after that unfortunately he got sidelined just like every other non-saiyan...
Though the bit of Saiyan Backstory in Broly was literally just animating the Dragon Ball Minus manga that Akira wrote some time ago.
I agree, and with Ultra Instinct being the goal to achieve now after the ToP, all the other characters have a goal the can also achieve because Ultra Instinct isn't race-specific, any race can use it. The only question then becomes, 'Will they use this?' and I hope they do, Piccolo, Krillin, and Gohan are really cool characters that should be utilized more.
I wonder how DBS would’ve been if Akira was 100% part of it
Probs the same but with the original art style and more stuff forgotten
No offence to our shining Japansss God of course
Probably wouldn't exist. Toriyama is dead tired of this shit
hopefully he makes the next dragon ball like the broly movie
@Griffith: "dUdE tRuSt mE!"
Nord VPN ad:
*avoid net neutrality*
Ummmmmm what? I don't think that means what you think it means.
Better than the old explanation of "broly hates goku because he cried as a baby"
Broly was so much better written than his first movie. Can be compassionate but when blinded by pure rage, cannot be controlled.
Excellently written also plus some of the most creative animation I have seen. (That reality breaking fight was awesome)
30 minutes of plot one hour of punches screams and explosions, worth every second, the ability to tell stories during fights without recurring to flash backs is the gratest ability toriyama possess
@Firelord86 That would make sense.
If Broly was at all related to Saiyans in anyway. He wasn't, beyond having their genes and growing up with his abusive but still caring father. Saiyans as a full number of super evil and crazy blood lover killers is as flat and uninteresting as it gets, and their rendition in the movie made me rather happy. There's always gonna be softies, and being a warrior race doesn't mean every single one must be roided out with rage and the need to kill or looking like they wanna fight with someone. Seeing Saiyans with guns was a pleasant surprise.
@Firelord86 What I meant was that besides having their genes, Broly was entirely unrelated to Saiyans. He didn't live with them, he didn't interact with them, he wasn't molded by their culture. The only mold he had was Paragus, who was an honest to God asshole but ACTUALLY cared for Broly. Broly is already very different to a normal Saiyan, and his upbringing had a lot to do with it.
The fact that not every body may know how to shot a ki blast...? Let's be honest, the fact that every body could do it but had no clue about ki sensing or proper fighting techniques make it seem like they could do it... well, because. And that's stupid. Not to mention at no point did anybody say the Saiyans were more human. They are still an army force mobilized to genocide entire planets, King Vegeta still saw it fit to send Broly off to get killed in a planet. That they seem like an organized group then doesn't make me doubt how have they even remained alive, and doesn't make them less of a brutal warrior race.
@Firelord86 Indeed, interesting is subjective.
But flat really is not. The Saiyans were supremely flat. The only one that showed a bit more substance was Bardock, caring so much for his crew.
@Luke Fraczek DBZ broly:Evil because kakarot made me cry.
I will say the filler in DBZ _(most especially in the Sayian Saga, particularly with the Goku, Chi-Chi, and baby Gohan flashbacks)_ did especially well to bridge Dragon Ball and DBZ together, as well as later filler doing well to bridge the Arcs together _(as they are at least referenced in some way, showing lasting consequence),_ and are also often funny _(looking at you, Driver's Test)._
.... except.... Fake Namek. There is _no_ Fake Namek.
Why doesn’t anybody ever talk about how great the original dragon ball was. It was amazing
Because it is already a fact that is great so it is not necessary to discuss it
most current fans didn't watch it. Proof is that when people like to say that goku's super characterization is basically his original db characterization are wrong. even as a kid, while he was ignorant, he never lacked common sense. I can bring up several scenes where kid goku had more insight than super goku.
@@powpowouchy5 "never lacked common sense" *proceeds to slap bulmas pussy to check for nuts* or like when krilling screwed with Goku cuz Goku was stupid and naive af. stfu, u obviously never seen dragon ball
It's the best.
1BuFo He was a kid never seen a woman until he met Bulma and thought everyone had penis. He couldn’t differentiate a woman from a man So, for him it was weird that she didn’t have penis.
He even thought woman breast were butts.
But DBS Goku comes not even close to Kid Goku. He doesn’t act like kid Goku.
Here is just plain stupid even his face is stupid instead of an pure angelic face.
In my opinion the thing that dbz had that dbs didnt was purpose and emotion. For one, with Goku his only purpose for fighting in super is because he just wants to fight not to save anyone or anything. Number two is the transformations in z they are all so natural when they are first seen unlike in super which they are forced upon Goku out of seemingly nowhere. The only real example of there being true emotion in the show is in the Zamasu arc between Trunks and Mai, which was also pretty flat in my opinion (The emotion, not the arc, I very much enjoyed this arc and is probably my favorite arc in super) (EDIT) Lmao i wrote this before watching the video and i can see that this is pretty much what the video is saying.
Totally not mark is very underrated.
Too true. His videos are always interesting, unique and always make you think. Unlike a few others.
@@diddlenfiddle7311 MASTAR MEDIA INTENSIFIES
He really nails why Dragon Ball as a franchise is so successful despite featuring very simple plotlines.
Clickbaiters are never underrated
People like to think that Broly is the DB counterpart to DC's Doomsday. But I don't think that is no where near close enough to be called "accurate". The only thing that they have in common is their abnormal abilities, far beyond the range of the average members of the Saiyans/Kryptonians.
No. In my mind, The Dragon Ball counterpart to Doomsday would be Cell.
For a number of reasons.
-They were both created in a lab and not a normal organic being, they were genetically designed from scratch to get improved as they battle in different ways.
-They both can tear through the good guys with ease.
-Most importantly, they both succeeded in killing the main hero: Goku/Superman.
You're the first person that I've ever seen make that comparison...
Along with that your sentence structure was a bit off at "But I don't think that is no where near close to be called "accurate".".
By saying "I don't think that" your sentence now means that you do not agree with it not being near close enough to be called "accurate".
When the rest of your text indicates you thinking the opposite.
To me, Super seemed more like an introduction to a more exciting series. It introduced a whole host of new characters, built a new cosmology, and powered up Goku and Vegeta with new forms they don't completely understand yet, but there was no universal upheaval, no serious threats.
Zamasu came close to being one, but the threat he posed was for the most part limited to Future Trunks' timeline.
The Tournament of Power shoehorned in a universal threat, but it's tough to take that seriously when the tournament disallows mortal combat, and we're told up front that the beings making the threat (the Zen-Ohs) aren't inherently evil.
But at the end of the series the roster of "good guys" has extended to include not just the Z-Warriors but Hit, the Universe 6 saiyans, Jiren, and now Broly. Now we're waiting on a multiversal threat it will take all of them together to defeat, during which conflict all of these characters can really develop.
The Champa arc does end with a question though - it directly sets up the Universe Survival arc, the main difference is that there's an arc between them. I also thought that Super did sort of have the feeling of an extended overall story - it's about the Z-Warriors accessing the realms of the gods through befriending Beerus and Whis. Pretty much every arc spins off from that new relationship, except the Resurrection F arc (which sets up an element of the Universal Survival arc).
Definitely not the same as Z, and I are with most of the rest, but I don't think the arcs are all disconnected.
I really hope they bring Broly into the main series when it returns, it would be a crime to waste his character.
Dragon Ball Z for the win
dragon ball super is better
@@luzune4638 I'd like to know too. I like z better and I haven't even watched it
Dragon Ball Super for literally its 90% of the time had
Bad Animation
Bad character drawings
Bad power scaling
Bad plot
While Dragon Ball Z had all of its things decent and amazing
There was rarely any bad or sloppy animation and there were thoughts put behind powerscaling
You need to be an idiot to think that Dragon Ball Super is better in any way
Liao Lyon , well duh it’s a different time period.
@Liao Lyon
Yes cuz they had a whole year and more to animate it
Normal DBS cant produce a good looking normal episode in few weeks and sometimes even months
While DBZ did it without a problem
I wasn't expecting you to put one of my primary complaints into a full discussion.
I usually summed it up as 'Goku gets to go home and have dinner with his family after each adventure.'
I really like your analysis of Broly being something that is needed in Super moving forward, a character that can grow within the series from arc to arc, with his allegiance bouncing from Frieza to Goku to create an interesting dynamic of trust and loyalties. However, I think they have been sitting on that for a while now and have simply missed it.
The problem with Super I think is that Goku and Vegeta have gotten so strong that all the original cast from Z have been left behind. They cannot keep up with the Saiyans, so they have to reach into other universes or other timelines to find worthy opponents, meaning that any character they find has to eventually be left behind for the arc as everyone returns home. Yes, some of them reoccur, like Hit and Kabba, but they are not part of the family. There are two characters on Earth that I think could have grown with Goku and Vegeta throughout Super, and they are Goten and Trunks.
Goten and Trunks didn't really have an arc in the Buu Saga, they trained and learnt fusion, but in terms of character growth they were overconfident and childish boys, and by the end, they remained the same. They haven't learnt anything since then. They were refused as participants in the ToP due to this exact behaviour. It would be a perfect opportunity to have Goku and Vegeta assume the master role and whip them into shape over a handful of sagas just like Gohan was.
Not to mention, their power levels, especially when fused, were rivalling that of Goku and Vegeta at the end of the Buu saga, yet they are only 8 years old. They definitely have the potential to keep up with Goku and Vegeta's power level and participate in the storyline. Imagine a Future Trunks Saga in which Trunks and Goten were able to help and the emotional dynamic that could have ensued.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I know a lot of Gohan fans are upset by his portrayal in Super, but Gohan's arc has already finished in Cell Saga and that is OK. But I think they have been sleeping on Goten and Trunks for a while now, it would be nice to explore those characters more, in the same way, I am sure they will do so with Pan and Uub once that time comes around.
13:26 and then they never brought broly back in a meaningful way again
"When it returns later this year" Good one
The video start at 11:00
Seriously Mark?
What about the first 11 minutes where he explains WHY Broly, his movie and his potential arc is important through parallel? Did you watch that part too?
don't forget to skip his bullshit advertising..
@@miguelmejia4656 getting paid to make videos for your spoiled ass is not bullshit.
@@rice-a-ronin not for him or people going to follow up on the ad, but it is bullshit for anyone that's not gonna pay attention to it.
@@miguelmejia4656 how dare he try and get paid while making these videos for us! THE HORROR!!!
I love super way more. Though it seems to lack of “excitement” as it used to have in dbz that made me sooo into the db world, but super has its own freshness and creativity. I love whole concepts which are introduced in dbs such as god of destruction, angel, zeno etc. And it shows many scenes of the gang’s everyday life that are so funny. It may looks not that deep or tense like dbz. But there’re a lot of amazing things that shouldn’t be overlooked~! 🌟
it remind me of many elements in db, the tournaments, this time they finished both of them unlike cell games or the one in majin boo saga, the new universes had unusual fighters that were weak but posses other skills like poison or invisibility and even magic, frieza return is just amazing, krillin proving he is not useless, he was the mvp in the TOP, kame being a badass again, the recruiting of the team to showcase what the other characters were doing, the weakest points in super, tenshinhan and majin boo, even gohan development was interesting with his field of study being ki
For me the arc that was disconnected was the Goku Black Arc. It barely tied to the Universal Arc, feeling more like a filler than a fully connected arc, with the only exception being that there is Future Zeno in the next arc but it's hardly acknowledged to the point you could say he was a clone and it would make just as much sense. They could fix that problem by having Trunks competing in the Tournament of Power in Roshi's spot for the Super Dragon Balls to revive his Timeline instead of having another Whis Deus Ex Machina.
“When Dragon Ball Super returns later this year”.
1 year later....
That comment didn’t age well.
What _is_ going to happen to Super anyway? Is it coming back?
I always thought it was just this celebration of DB that got out of hand, but apparently the Manga is still going
@@Sorrelhas
Toei might be waiting for the Moro Saga to finish before adapting it to television, to avoid more filler than necessary.
John Morgan
It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if they redid the Broly arc then did Moro
I mean they get the same notes from Toriyama as the manga did so why the long wait for such a popular show
@@spacepenguins8939 they don't want the manga to be too different from the movie
@@TupocalypseShakur what
I LOVE the thumb nail because it’s DBS Broly but in the DBZ style
When I saw the Broly Movie something inside me just sparked and I shouted like a super sayain SO MANY NICE EFFECTS smooth animation and real good story. No wonder its best selling movie
When Goku said “but Broly call me kakarot” it’s soo good because it finally shows that Gokus character developed and finally thinks himself as kakarot
I don't understand how anyone could actually believe that the Frieza saga connects more directly with the Android saga than any given part of Super. The beginning of the Android saga, with the reappearance of Frieza, has always felt incredibly clumsy. They basically said, "We need someone to job to Future Trunks... Who is a big bad ass?" Then pulled Frieza's return out of their ass. I also fail to see how the Buu saga is in any way connected to the Androids/Cell.
The story of Super has been the story of the gods and cosmology of the Dragon Ball universe. All of the arcs consistently explore this, beginning with Beerus and Whis during the Battle of the Gods and Resurrection F arcs, and then moving on to the multiverse by introducing Universe 6.
We then see that each universe has their own Supreme Kai, and how they relate to the Destroyers (a Destroyer is directly linked to its Supreme Kai; if one dies, they both do) within the Goku Black/Zamasu arc. We also see that the multiple timelines that were established in Z are taboo, for good reason, as the Future Trunks timeline introduces a second Grand Zeno to the timeline we know, leading to the Tournament of Power (also directly connecting to the Universe 6 tournament and the rest of Super, which has focused on the gods). Zeno's ability to casually wipe out universes in the Goku Black/Zamasu arc is the entire basis of the Tournament of Power.
If you don't like Super, that's fine, but to say that the arcs aren't interconnected is foolishness and easily dismantled with only a few moments of thought. Super is likely more connected than the original Dragon Ball or Z ever were.
I usually don't say stuff like this, but this is a severely underrated comment. I don't think anyone can deny the connections Super has between its arcs given your statement, even if they could defend Z's connections.
i always imagine the z arcs are like jojo parts
I'm sorry, but what does "We need someone to job to Future Trunks" mean?
I love how DBZ had multiple long running character arcs throughout it's run, but now we're getting excited that Super will have 1.
I personally love both but I favor "z" more but for me super feels more dumbed down, for example if super was done in the z style of story and attitude it'd be way better than "z". Also there's another issue I have with super, I know other characters like tien krillin and piccolo can't fair in strength towards the saiyans, this might be heading towards fan-made territory but it'd be nice to have at least piccolo get some of that "toriyama power up" medication instead of basically being bitch made throughout the show; thats another reason why i don't like the buu saga that much they didn't use their large array of characters other than cameo moments (ex. Tien during buu saga).
The others being more weaker than the saiyans is not an excuse, since the 17 that lost to the base form of the cell and in the tournament of the power managed to fight against the jiren (sorry for my bad english)
@@vecturhoff7502 yea
@@vecturhoff7502 its just lazy writing not necessarily bad just lazy and it shows they only use those characters as last minute options when they remember that they exist
@@davionfowler2393 they should think of the characters as yamcha who stayed out of the tournament just so that the 17 entered (which I think very meaningless)
In Z, the stakes just feel so serious and higher (Well Early Z did). If Piccolo dies then Kami would too and the Dragon Balls will be gone. Its like "Damn we really need to defeat these guys or else they'll destroy the Earth and the Dragons will be gone" or "Damn we should really protect Piccolo or else the Dragon Balls would be rendered useless".
In Super though, death means nothing. Whis can just go back in time and the Dragon Balls can just solve any problems (Well I mean in the Cell Saga, they made it so Dragon Balls can bring back people numerous times. Remember before Cell, the Dragon Balls could only bring a person back once and if they die again they can't be brought back).
One thing I like about GT was that the dragon balls had drawbacks (i think it was like each time they made a wish, the negative energy grows bigger in the dragon ball). This was a result of the characters always using the Dragon Ball to solve their problems and at the end, learned that they should do things themselves and stop relying on the Dragon Balls to solve all their problems
"MY POWER IS MAXUM-ER"
- Broly (DBZ)
Broly worked in the original move because he was a tool and the actual antagonist was his father.
Just like in Super Broly. Well, and Frieza.
@@Gnidel ya , and Broly is empathetic Toriyama took what i like about the first Broly movie and improved upon it.
I hope broly uses his own mind and exercise some autonomy.
Really like the song, accompanying Broly what is that?
I hope there is a little of Hercules (from Greek mythology) in Broly's story..wink.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, the legendary super saiyan Broly is dead...
...
AND I WAS THE ONE WHO TOOK. HIM. DOWN.
Oh sorry I was thinking of Hercule
Super is missing the heart that made Z so special, it really seems to me that it was more worried about making great action than making compelling stories
I don't know about Z and compelling stories honestly. Dragonball has always been more about action than story. Toriyama just really isn't a good enough writer to cook up a compelling deep story. He makes things up as he goes along. Honestly the most serious and compelling story we got out of Dragonball, to me, was the Goku Black Saga. But even then, it really isn't about the story. Dragonball has always been about two dudes punching each other, screaming and then shooting energy beams.
But it's funny how Z personally still had better action
@@EskChan19 I get what you mean and I do think I could have worded it better, it's just that at least to me, I felt like in Z they were a hell of a lot better at balancing action with actual emotions
@@cynical4503 Hm... i guess. To be honest i felt like Super started very, very bad but got better as it went along, while Z started pretty good but stayed relatively at the same level. Generally i'd also say Z was better overall, but i'd lie if i said that the Goku Black Arc or the Tournament of Power didn't have some of my favorite Dragonball Moments ever
@@EskChan19 getting to watch Frieza is always a pleasure
I love these type of videos. Please dont stop. Also the rest of your channel is great too. I think your channel is best, Not because the others are bad, Its just the format and quality you have.
During Cell Games Goku said "I'm not coming back because it seems the Earth is in more danger when I'm there compared to when I'm not, it's time the Earth got a much needed time of peace"
Super Goku is completely fine putting the multiverse in danger for the sake of pleasuring his boner for fighting.
Wtf is that. I compare Super to Fairy Tail and SAO, had tons of potential but utterly became trash.
Goku understands he could be involved to save people from Cell and other threats, and he chooses not to. He's an absolute bonafide idiot in Z. Worse-off than Super because his suggestion for the tournament of power is literally THE ONLY THING that ensures at least one universe can be saved from the Zenos, when they were already committed to destroying all of the universes underneath the threshold to begin with.
It is entirely nostalgia and people outright misremembering how Z went down that make people think Z is superior to Super, when it's very clearly the other way around.
Admittedly they did some lame copouts to exonerate goku of responsibility for universal destruction. They did this by A. goku was warned many times by beerus how dangerous zeno is and he just kept trodding along like an ignorant idiot to excuse that. B. making him unaware of the tournament stakes until it was declared and he was told that asking them to call it off would get him killed (only now he takes warnings serious) C. claiming that universal destruction was going to happen anyway, except thanks to goku one would be spared in the tournament.
@Firelord86
No, Goku is a wrong idiot because Babidi doesn't want to come to Earth for Goku. He only wants to come to Earth to get as much energy as possible - which he can do so without Goku, and can easily get it now that Goku isn't there to stop him.
@lakecityransom
And they don't ever make an attempt to legitimately exonerate Goku of the destruction. The majority of the characters still feel it distasteful that Goku has such enthusiasm with the tournament despite the stakes of what it represents and that victory for their universe will still technically lead to the doom of 7 others.
Super forces the characters to recognize how much of an idiot Goku really is and grant consequences that aren't so easily cleaned up even if they win by half-measures. There are numerous encounters in Dragon Ball Z that they only win by half-measures and still get away with it thanks to the easily-acquired powers of the Shenron Dragon Balls, like bringing any number of Goku or anyone else in the middle of an arc. Super guarantees that if they don't win the Tournament of Power, they don't get the Super Dragon Balls, and they don't get to bring their universe back.
This and so many other conversations demonstrates how Dragon Ball fans have just categorically forgotten what happened in Z and are only going by nostalgia and fog-covered lenses to say that it's somehow better than Super.
I feel like at this point, since he is friends with gods, Goku is getting a little too cozy with these Other Worldly powers, and as such doesnt believe in consequence for his stupid decisions. The power goes to his head
You mean the Cell Saga where Goku gave Cell a senzu bean to heal him? Vegeta has gotten a lot of crap for giving villains too many chances because he wants bigger fights - but Goku is just as bad.
So, if Gohan has learned a new transformation (which is what was stated), and its development is handled correctly, then there needs to be an arc with those two at odds.
After all, Broly, is the evil version of what we want Gohan to be in the story.
Broly is far from evil in Super
I recently watched the DBS Broly movie. I thought it would be good, but I couldn’t imagine how much I would love it (this is coming from someone who didn’t like the old Broly, who doesn’t like Super and who unironically loves GT). It has become one of my favourite DB movies.
I would watch the sh*t out of a series centered around Broly, Cheelai and Lemo traveling through space and getting in trouble.
I honestly felt as a writer that the biggest mistake Super had up until the Broly movie was that much of any development was meant solely for a particular arc and nothing more. Granted, there are some who do develop throughout like Beerus, but other than him, we don't really get to see much of anyone since the arc is grounded in its own way (because marketing).
DBZ takes the prize by default because:
A - Its pure Nostalgia Factor. No matter what comes along, DBZ is our childhood. And I've never seen anything myself that trumps something we so heavily identify with simpler times.
B - DBZ was a frontier of the series. Going from whacky, gimmicky Dragonball which gives credit to being a spin off story of The Monkey King, to sweet fights, limit pushing, and roided, furious, burn out fight scenes, it was the penultimate action anime of its time, and is still attributed to inspiring many animes to this day. Classics never die.
C - The Dragonball narrative has been exhausted. Depleted of freshness and originalty. (Yep. Jiren.) The story stopped mattering when Goku was the catch-all character for all plot points. (Aside from lightsaber trunks in the Black Arc, which as far as I'm concerned was just a gimme to wrap up a poorly thought out villain.) Remember how hyped we were when Gohan ascended his father and defeated Cell? There should have been more climaxes like that.
Truth is, I think we grew up a bit with Super. Its not enough now to have the heroes get crushed over and over again only to find that "dormant inner power" and wipe the adversary. Ultra Instinct was just an Avatar State that wanted us to forget that Goku probably shouldn't have been standing, despite it triggering. Jiren should have had more weakness and vulnerability other than his "Lack of Trust" cliche. Everyone plotted and wondered about all the details of the Tournament of Power, expecting it to be some deeper part of Jiren's clouded strength and the nature of Goku mastering U.I. Instead, it was just...handed out like cheap punch at an office party. Nothing significant about it other than "Yep. Goku did it" and "Oh, he still got his boys behind him. That's probably handy." End of Super.
"Friendship Wins" - Fairytale
Even as someone who doesn't usually care about that kind of stuff, the fact that Goku stood up around 4 times going, "Ultra Instinct just awakened within me!" Only to fall back down again an episode or so later feels so lazily handled.
DBZ, still feels so fresh and clean after all these years.
It has so many twists and turns, while Super feels like a straight line in comparison.
And sadly most of those twists and turns are so linear they msde excellent jokes for tfs material
DBZ gets padded with nostalgia too much honestly. I think part of the issue with Super is that the nostalgia of Z is used as a filter - it's not like the difference between Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z or even DBZ and DBGT where you know things are different from the getgo and thus treat each as sort of separate yet connected entities; instead Super is both a direct sequel and also a prequel to Z, picking up after the defeat of Buu and before the 'Peaceful World' mini-arc where Goku gets to encounter Uub. As such, folks expected, well, more of Z. Instead they got something that didn't feel or look exactly like Z, and as a result it was criticized from the getgo + held to higher standards than Z. Like for example there were a ton of animation/drawing flaws with Z but nobody cares to mention that because folks will only remember the good/greatest moments of Z and use those as the standard for Super to adhere to.
Now while Z ended with potential hooks into the next arc, Toriyama wrote on a chapter-by-chapter basis and didn't seem to be doing that much planning ahead in comparison to Super. It's been brought up many many times, but Z was designed to where it could've ended after Frieza. The Saiyan Saga was the only actual saga/arc that had an actual need to continue the story past that point (because we needed to figure out how the heck they'd get everyone back without the dragon balls), whereas Namek and the Androids both ended on notes that were perfectly suited for ending points. Goku not wanting to go back to Earth was such a Goku thing - he wanted to go have fun exploring the cosmos and seeing what challenges he could encounter to better himself. Goku not wanting to come back to life was also a pretty obvious Goku thing - he realized he wasn't needed anymore and wanted to see what the Afterlife had in store for him. At the end of each of those arcs the story wrapped up nicely, we could be left to our imagination as to what would happen to Goku and the gang, and characters like Vegeta, Gohan, and Piccolo had satisfying personal growth.
I also think that's unfair to claim that Super didn't have connecting points between arcs. Outside of the movies which were disjointed naturally, the Tournament of Destroyers sewed the seeds for the Tournament of Power arc; also the Tournament of Destroyers was one of the catalysts for Zamasu to become Goku Black, because he got to witness the strength of Goku (the one mortal to make him feel inadequate) and also learned of the Super Dragonballs which he heavily abused. It's just that there weren't big obvious chains like major characters being dead or Goku going away. Instead the transition between the Tournament of Destroyers and Future Trunks arc was very similar to how the Androids arc started off, where Trunks shows up and becomes an anomaly, and if the Future Trunks arc didn't happen then we would have naturally moved into the Tournament of Power arc much faster. Oh, and the end of the Future Trunks arc showed what Zeno was capable of, which became a major plot point for the Tournament of Power.
It's also unfair to talk about the characters not developing/etc. when you're ignoring all of the characters in Z that also didn't develop - Raditz, Nappa, Cui, Guldo, Zarbon, Dodoria, Ginyu, Recoome, Dr Gero, Android 17 (didn't develop until Super), every Namekian not named Dende or Piccolo, Frieza (didn't develop until Super), Cell, Gohan's classmates that didn't become his wife... list goes on. The thing is that we've already got a main cast and they've already developed about as much as they can, save for possibly Vegeta whom we've been able to see more and more depth to as Super went on. But even by the Buu Saga there wasn't much character depth/development beyond Vegeta - everything else was mostly just characters being the same as they were, and the only 'growth' came from powerups or so on.
Like I said, it's easy to look at Super and criticize it with the Z lens, which is pretty much what the basis of this video revolves around. But Dragon Ball Z didn't get held to that same lens with Dragon Ball, nor did GT get held to Z's lens in the same way that Super is being held to by fans who're 10+ years older than when they first watched and fell in love with Z. Broly is just refreshing because he's not the same one-shot one-dimensional villain as he was in Z, and actually shows promise to develop further IF they find a way to actually use him further without him just raging out every time.
I agree with most of this. You pretty much wrote everything I wanted to say. Shame it is so long and old (relative to the other comments) most people won’t read it.
1. Changing from one thing to another is NOT character development. Character development is the process of a character getting more fleshed out and 3D over time. Just because a character doesn't "change" doesn't mean they got no development, and just because they do change doesn't mean they are developing. Nobody in Shakespeare's plays or in most HBO dramas actually "changes", yet they have some most development in any work of fiction for example. Freeza never actually changed in Super. The most character development he ever got (that is, info and reflections on who he is as a person) was in the Namek saga. You are right about A17 though.
2. The Nostalgia argument/excuse has been debunked several times. Nobody who criticizes Super (and GT) thinks that Z nor even Early DB was perfect. They mostly criticize it based on the same OBJECTIVE standards that is applied to any work of fiction. And just because a flaw also existed in Z doesn't mean it is excusable in Super.
3. "It's also unfair to talk about the characters not developing/etc. when you're ignoring all of the characters in Z that also didn't develop - Raditz, Nappa, Cui, Guldo, Zarbon, Dodoria, Ginyu, Recoome, Dr Gero, Android 17 (didn't develop until Super), every Namekian not named Dende or Piccolo, Frieza (didn't develop until Super), Cell, Gohan's classmates that didn't become his wife... list goes on."
Most of those are side-characters that were not intended to appear for long. Characters like that don't need lots of development. However, it is a problem when you MAIN and recurring characters get little-to-no development to justify their continued presence in a story.
No, it is criticised because it's so boring.
Man the brocolli at the end. So tone-dissonant. Made me giggle.
I love this topic. Great video. I personally believe they kinda shied away from making lasting changes in DBS is because they were not yet sure of where they wanted to go with the End of Z checkpoint that DBS is leading up to. Like you, I sense this is going somewhere big, and they've made their decision and as unpopular as this may be... I hope they overwrite the EoZ to make it work with how DBS has played out. I can't wait for them to move beyond that (if they do) because then they have no restrictions.
I preffer this Broly to be a friendy allied than the old savage Broly as enemie
Goku suffered from the heart disease bc the medicine was grape flavored. *tfs yells, put it on a shirt!*
DBS Arcs seem more like canon stand-alone movies while DBZ seems like a genuine show lmao
dragon ball super writers : why don t we have any really good characters
akira toriyama : hold my senzu been
Hold my Hetap
The lost ingredient is Vic.
Not lost, removed as not to spoil the dish.
@@CometX-ing well....i see where you side now...
Tragic. I hope that when the new guy comes the fanbase doesn't hate him for no reason.
@@CometX-ing which leaves the dish unseasoned and bland.
@@CometX-ing Ok, what's the proof? There has never been proof whatsoever as to Vic being guilty throughout this whole crap filled drama that started.
- *Makes a 13 min video all about explaining/breaking down Broly*
- *Only spends about 3 minutes actually talking about Broly himself*
I know he was setting the stage and giving everyone context, and I’m fine with it. I just thought it was funny 😅
I like the video, but I think you're discounting a very different means of linking the Arcs of super, that isn't immediately apparent, and the ultimate culprit of this forceful change. Unlike Z which had a very easy lego brick style you listed having an intro bit that connects to the prior section, the core of the story, and then a hanging question which ties to the next saga's intro, Super had Hooks that would be left open, for future stories to tie back to. Let me Explain:
Battle of Gods, introduces Gods of Destruction and Angels. This leaves a question of "Who appoints them, Who chooses them" and implies there may be a step above. This was present in the original Movie, but was never answered because Movie. But in the series, it is answered in the Universe 6 Tournament, finally meeting Zeno, who in his introduction seems to have no one above him, just a caretaker. Their interconnected-ness with the Kaioshin in the Future Trunks Saga. We also learn that Gods of Destruction train up replacements In the Universe Survival Arc.
Resurrection F, According to the New Canon, Frieza always knew about Beerus, This leaves a question of "What did he think about this glutton cat of doom? What was he going to do about him in the future, before becoming aware of Goku's connection to the Kitty?" Again, present in Movie, but not answered because movie. In the series, this is elaborated on, Frieza's trainned to the point of defeating Goku, but after learning about this, he begins to plot overthrowing everything with the Super Dragon Balls in the Universe Survival Aarc, but instead has character growth. But then Super adds in question left for Gohan in the Resurrection F arc, by switching his near death to the death of Piccolo giving us a NEW hook, "With the loss of his mentor, Gohan realizes his rejection of fighting and even training cost a friend his life." This has the answer in Later Arcs where he DOES do some training on the side, but never enough and is still sidelined because he still hasn't fully accepted the responsibility yet. Yet when the chips are down, in the Universe Survival Arc/Tournament of Power, he shows he has stepped up and is still trying his best. In the manga (after this video was made) He fights against Moro's goons, and further more in DBS Super Hero, he seems to have come to a point where he realizes he must search for a better work-life-fighting ratio, after his daughter is kidnapped (Fake) and Piccolo (almost) dies.
Multiverse Tournament, There are MULTIPLE other Universes with their own GoDs, angels and Kaioshin. And no they aren't all similar to the Main Casts' universe. There are other saiyans, and the biggest hook they have that people keep asking for is "Vegeta goes to visit other Universe's Saiyans." Zeno is introduced and Goku makes friends with him, and they talk about doing this Tournament thing again next time. This is tied back to from Future Trunks Saga where Zeno gives Goku the "DeusEx-Make-this-go-away button" and the It's used both to end Trunk's future, and to remind him of the Tournament, which becomes the Universe Survival Arc.
The next major arc, the Future Trucks Saga, Opens the idea that 'GodTube' exists, meaning other Gods of Destruction and Kaioshin all probably watched the Multiverse Tournament, And it is the chief cause of Zemasu going insane in some versions of the arc. The major hook is that now the Present world has TWO Zeno, which causes the Exhibition match between 7 and 9, which brings the introduction of Toppo, and ultimately the Survival part of the Universe Survival Arc, and probably plenty more contention in the future. The Arc itself ties back to Original DBZ, by finally showing us what happened to that spare Time Machine (Cell's) as well as answer some other questions like "Did Babidi show up in Future Trunk's timeline" and "Why the Portara, which Shin said was permanent, not be permanent."
The Final Arc, The Universe Survival Arc, gives us Buu's uncanny powers in a good setting, before sealing him away because his powers are literally too broken for the Tournament of Power. Frieza returns, shows his back-stabbing as usual, but then shows off his more dignified traits that have been missing from his character since he first showed up in Z. This ultimately culminating in his Character Growth that's later more developed in Super Broly, becoming less involved in Immortality, and just doing it for the kicks. We get the pay off on hooks for Goku's new power that were noted in the sections between Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, Gohan reversing roles with Piccolo, giving Piccolo some new development beyond becoming Green-granddad, remembering the weight of the lives he has always been carrying behind him, giving hooks to (Again, after this Video) DBS Super Hero, which he searches for a way to get more power unlocked, like how Guru did for the Earthlings. Vegeta takes new role as another flat character, but realizes he cannot become stronger by emulating Goku (The quintessential Flat Character) and instead chooses to forge his own path (leading to anime's Blue Evolution and Manga's Ultra Ego), while still retaining the heroic qualities he learned from Goku.
But really, All of this change in how things are interconnected is something forced by Toriyama himself. The End of Z exists, and characters have to behave as they did for End of Z so they aren't really allowed to change. Gohan still becomes a Non-fighter. Piccolo remains on the sidelines. Vegeta, while cool headed, still wants to fight Kakarot. And worse all Goku still abandons his family at first chance it seems. With their hands tied, they had to retread old ground, even if they do some very minor changes to at least simulate growth.
“I’m a foot and a half taller than you but whatever.”
“What was that?!”
“I said I can’t hear you from down there.”
“Speak up boy, I can’t hear you from up there!”
The way you described blue reminds me of Ssj3
the main reason why Super has such a bad reputation compared to Z is because of the utterly garbage quality of the first episodes, people started cherrypicking every single poorly-drawn frame in the episodes to make it look like the entire series looks that bad. While I think the series eventually managed to put itself together the damaged was already done, there's too many people that won't give Super a second chance because they think the whole series look like episode 5(that episode where Goku turns into John Cena when he goes ss3), and even though I loved the Broly movie I still find hard to be 100% optimistic about a new weekly anime series since almost everything produced by Toei that is not a movie has below average art and animation.
If a new series does get made I think I would wait for the english dub. As someone who watched the Japanese version and is now re-watching it in English the episodes have been worked on and it looks a lot better.
Enzo Daniel I mean story, character development and pacing are the reasons that it keeps its poor reputation tho, like sure the usual responses will make fun of the animation but that’s not going to keep people from liking something, it’s manga gets shit on too for very similar reasons
Enzo Daniel that’s what they get for rushing out an anime without a true manga to replicate and adapt to the screen.
watching this video again through the lens of the moro arc and the hints at broly that were dropped (plus the fact that the arc seems to literally happen right when goku teleports away from broly, and appears next to vegeta). i think the best course of action given the havoc moro caused, plus the looming threat of freeza is that goku should try to get broly recruited with the galactic patrol at the end of the arc... i feel like that can be a strong premise that would lead to the next arc smoothly.
how will broly impact the galactic patrol? will they now gain confidence to fight back against freeza and his forces? will freeza's relationship with broly in the film affect the clash? how will broly and vegeta end up interacting once again?...etc.