Visit our website www.glenmorelod... or call us on 01479 861256 Al Halewood takes you through all the important things you need to know about traditional lead climbing.
And more... Anchors combining slings and anchors (equalising with a sling and then extending towards the edge of the crag with the rope) are common too. I understand your point about dealing with a problem with your partner but a hoist can be set up easily from within the system and 'escaping' is quite easy with a couple of slings and a prusik loop.
Why not create your anchor system with a cordalette, tie in direct, and then top belay? That way you would have an auto locking belay system, a more centralized anchor, and be no where near the edge. I am only trying to learn the benefits of your system, not trying to prove that I am right. Thanks for the informative video and stay safe.
Henry L The main benefit of this way is if your anchors are all spaced wide apart. This is a typical problem with much of UK trad climbing (no convenient bolt or peg nests). Its quite common to be using anchors that are widely spaced needing a lot of rope. The other aspects are: there is a lot of dynamic rope in the system - good for anchors, and it requires very little gear. It is idealy suited for climbing in Peak district for instance where the climbs are quite small but the tops are flat and have few placements available
Being near the edge is useful for communication. Cordelettes are completely unnecessary for single pitch, you can just as easily build a focal point and belay in guide mode using the rope, and it can be 10m from each piece. I'm not sure why someone would teach this antique belay from the harness method, unless the anchor is shit and the climber is supposed to be a part of it.
for an instructor it is very wrong to teach belay building with only two pieces! i don't care how "good" they are very poor form! never trust a belay two only pieces! never trust your life to only two pieces that are 4 of 5 star placements i would go no lower then 12 which means waste the time and responsibly place another very good placement! this is how people new to trad die because of lack of experience with trad placements, it takes miles and miles of rock climbing to know what are the best placements you can really make, don't listen to this guy get some real instruction!
+Dave Soderbloom Also, the belay device with the brake to the back is just grossly negligent. In case of sudden loss of rope(fainting, slipping etc- and just look at his leisurely technique :o) theres nearly no means to even slightly stop the rope. When the device is faced like it should be(that is, to the active climber) he would just fall into the brake itself. It may be a hassle to pull in rope, but its a lot safer
Agree. Also, positioning himself on the lip holding miles of slack in his hand was entirely unnecessary. Tying a quick clove hitch with roughly the right length of rope, then readjusting it when in position would remove the possibility of a huge - and for the belayer - quite unexpected fall. Speed is safety in the mountains and all but that’s not the way to teach newbies who are presumably who the video is aimed at. (That said, cudos to Glenmore lodge for an excellent range of instructional videos.)
One trick that I use to solve the problem of too much rope in your hands when walking back to the edge of the crack, is to clip the central strand of rope between the two anchors points on a carabiners on the fig8 loop, instead of having it in your hands. This way if you fall over the edge, there is no slack in the system. Once you sit down just clove hitches on the same krab and youre done. Also has the benefit that both arms are perfectly equalised when sitting down before you clove hitch them
2 piece meeting 8 to 10 is a good anchor, you can have 3 pieces in some rated 3 each and it won't be as strong? you Gear nuts worry to much! the forces imposed here should he fall will be similar to that of top rope so two pieces will suffice pretty well!you take factor 1 and 2 wangars on less going up but as soon as you use the word anchor suddenly that gear isn't safe you need everything crammed in everything has to be locked redundant systems backed up all the way into the nearest village !!!!!!!this anchor here is bomb proof! Principal placement is unnecessary!
+david Kerridge Glenmore Lodge belongs to SportScotland and is a state-run training venue for mountaineering. Their job is to teach absolute safety first, not to go "Yeah, well, that seems about good enough then ..."
at a 120 degree angle each piece of a two piece anchor experiences 100% of the force ie. there is redundancy but no load sharing, at higher angles the force is increased beyond 100%. At 90 deg each piece experiences 70%.
Dear Albertros. Thank you for your comment, we are unsure of why you suggest this device isnt recommended. We have double checked the footatage and are confident that we are using best practice. Are you based in the USA? We are aware that standard practise is different in Europe and what may seem alien to an American viewer is both perfectly safe but also usual technique in Europe. If you still beleive this is incorrect then by all means provide us with more information. Many Thanks
In reply to Sean Mackinnon. 'Best practice' is an interesting phrase as it implies one 'best' way to do things. What comes to be common practice in different countries is a product of the environment and collective experience of climbers and Instructors/Guides in that country. In the UK we tend to teach the 'semi -indirect' belay using the rope to tie in illustrated in the video first.
Hi there, you are right in that you need to be wary of where your leg sits in relation to the rope. In this case, the belay attachment to the rock is significantly higher than the belayer has positioned themself, therefore the line from rock to the second climber (or in this case the edge of the cliff) is high enough to prevent the leg from being significantly squashed.
Hi there. In Trad climbing you would commonly 'top out' above the route and then once safe dismantle your belay and walk down. Most crags / mountains have descent paths leading off that make this feasible. If there isn't a path off then you would need to abseil - often using fixed gear already there or sometimes leaving a sling behind around a block for instance. The guide book usually gives you a good steer here either way.
And continuing again. Also at the crag in question the anchors are too far apart to equalise with a cordelette/slings at the top of many (most) of the routes. The rope allows equalisation of distant anchors (you are only limited by how much you have left). In a multi-pitch context where you will use a plate to belay the leader being attached to your anchors having rope in the system makes for a more dynamic 'catch' in the event of a big leader fall too.
that knot that you use for equalizing was it the Clove Hitch knot? Like the idea definably a little slower specially with multiple protection, but definably a new idea that I need to check it out. I been climbing for many year and I'm always learning something new!!! Thanks!
Continuing from the above post: Direct belaying such as you describe is also common in certain cases too but there are advantages to using the rope to tie in. Slings and cordelettes have little or no stretch in them, using the rope gives a more dynamic system and belaying off the rope loop increases that dynamism. This wont make poor anchors good but provides some protection for them.
It is useful for SINGLE PITCH CRAGS where you can walk off the top without any hassle. You don't need to be able to escape any system as the seconding climbing can be lowered at any point they so choose. And on such single pitch crags, anchors are often far apart and away so using the rope is the only logical way other than having a 20m cordelette. Read up on other countries practices before you find flaws in them.
...And finally. I do frequently direct belay as you describe (with close bombproof anchors- almost no bolted anchors on UK Trad climbs, when I'm doing all the leading on a MP route etc.) too. However we teach the shown system first as our experience shows it is the most flexible and appropriate for our type of climbing and crags. The 'best' system on the day is the one the climber chooses from their own range of tools and is safe and appropriate in that situation. Enjoy your climbing!
I've watched and re-watched the clip and I can't see him let go of the dead rope at any point around 13:40. Also, on single pitch it's a lot easier for the second to just walk away from the edge to a safe place than it is to clip them in. Exempting really gusty winds or steep/slippery ground at the top of the crag they aren't in much danger after topping out and taking a couple of steps.
Using both carabiners from a quick draw made me cringe. Even if the wall side has never seen a bolt, it seems like a bad practice to get into. The rest of the video was very informative so thank you for putting that together.
I know it's an old thread but I have a question,that may sound "bone" but....... Is it not necessary to tie a clovehitch at the anchor as well as the other end (@belayer)
Cheers al, great vid. I just have one question, How do you both get down to the bottom without leaving any gear at the top...sport climber wanting to go trad !!
The belay anchor isn't very practical. It uses up a ton of rope, it doesn't create a power point, and it's not the most effective way to achieve equalization nor would this work for multipitch. This may happen to work here but there are much more effective and efficient solutions to building a proper belay anchor. Plus it's just awkward to belay a follower off the harness.
Its perfect for the UK. Single pitch climbs are quite short so you have plenty of rope, but the anchors can be spaced very far apart. Rather than carry x20 slings, its easier just to use the rope
Hi, when I was watching this video I thought the same as albertros. I think it isn`t standard for Austria and Germany to use this kind of belay to belay a second climber. The problem is that you have to be aware to pull the rope uphill when belaying the second climber which is exactly the difference as when belaying from the ground. Which I think is the reason why it isn't thought like that in Austria/Germany.
He rated his two placements 5 or 4 out of five. He was happy with has placements. Also they nuts can hold a lot of weight much more than they two combined.
Loobo2012 rock quality and your best judgement dictate how many pieces to place, the correct response is as many as it takes to build a safe , equalized , solid , redundant this should be a no brainer! i would kick somebody in the f in nuts for belaying me with two pieces!
Dave Soderbloom Nuts are designed to hold the shock and force of a lead climber taking a long fall. One well placed piece of pro will save your life in a fall. That being said, _two_ bomber pieces will easily hold the weight of a climber in the event of a fall on top rope, which would have negligible shock load. And the dynamic rope being used and the two cloves hitches will also absorb a few kilo-newtons. That setup is perfect for what it's being used for, and totally safe. The only potential flaw is the lack of an auto-locking belay device.
Why take unnecessary risks I was always taught build anchors with no less than three pieces regardless of their "bomberness" if you have to bail out of a route and use one peice thats fine but why? because there shouldn't be a shock load unless you rap like a coked up mountain goat if your going to belay you should be smart enough to not take risks for other people what kind of climbing partner are you? Oh well Natural selection. I have an awesome family and two boys I climb paranoid but I have nothing to prove and too much to lose... I love my boys and my wife and that's not worth it to me. There is a reason for the saying "better judgment" it's because of dumb ass individuals like yourself that make less than bomber decisions bro totally rad of you and your skills to bless us with your argument to use less pro your idiotic and probably can't even crank 5.7 on top rope unless your an amga certified mountain guide keep your high speed advice to your climbing partner your going to kill lolz all day about people like you
Dave Soderbloom Wow, you're mad. I'm not a great climber but I'm not a shit climber. And I know what's safe and what's not. I also not only have family, but I climb _with_ my family, and they've been climbing longer than I have and know their shit. My mom has climbed with and learned from Malcolm Daly and Ron Kauk, and I've learned from a lot of pros. Yeah go ahead. Add a third piece. Add a fourth. Fuck it. Add 20 pieces if it makes you feel better. And as you trad climb, when you place a piece of pro, add three more pieces next to it. Just have two dozen cams on a 50 foot pitch. Why not? It's marginally safer, so why not do it, right? The truth is that two well placed pieces tied together like they are here will hold a two a lot of mass in a mostly static position, like they have in the video. If you've actually climbed outside in real life, you'd know that conditions aren't perfect and you have to improvise. You'd know that there's a large range of methods of protection on similar levels of safeness, and that you just have to do what works and what makes sense. There's redundancy, and then there's wasting time to backup your backup's backup's backup.
When the belayer is standing on the ground it is not necessary to construct an anchor. Actually most people don't do it. If the climber fell he would be raised slightly or not so it is not required. If he was on a multi pitch climb and the belayer wasn't on the ground then yes he would need a anchor.
Good vid I couldn't help laughing when he said "rack them on my harness just behind where my nuts are sitting" 😂😂
And more... Anchors combining slings and anchors (equalising with a sling and then extending towards the edge of the crag with the rope) are common too. I understand your point about dealing with a problem with your partner but a hoist can be set up easily from within the system and 'escaping' is quite easy with a couple of slings and a prusik loop.
great vid - thanks for posting
Why not create your anchor system with a cordalette, tie in direct, and then top belay? That way you would have an auto locking belay system, a more centralized anchor, and be no where near the edge. I am only trying to learn the benefits of your system, not trying to prove that I am right. Thanks for the informative video and stay safe.
Henry L The main benefit of this way is if your anchors are all spaced wide apart. This is a typical problem with much of UK trad climbing (no convenient bolt or peg nests). Its quite common to be using anchors that are widely spaced needing a lot of rope. The other aspects are: there is a lot of dynamic rope in the system - good for anchors, and it requires very little gear. It is idealy suited for climbing in Peak district for instance where the climbs are quite small but the tops are flat and have few placements available
Being near the edge is useful for communication. Cordelettes are completely unnecessary for single pitch, you can just as easily build a focal point and belay in guide mode using the rope, and it can be 10m from each piece. I'm not sure why someone would teach this antique belay from the harness method, unless the anchor is shit and the climber is supposed to be a part of it.
Figure 8 knot never tie in the middle-belay loop , any gear brand not recommended this
my dog could run up that
for an instructor it is very wrong to teach belay building with only two pieces! i don't care how "good" they are very poor form! never trust a belay two only pieces! never trust your life to only two pieces that are 4 of 5 star placements i would go no lower then 12 which means waste the time and responsibly place another very good placement! this is how people new to trad die because of lack of experience with trad placements, it takes miles and miles of rock climbing to know what are the best placements you can really make, don't listen to this guy get some real instruction!
+Dave Soderbloom Also, the belay device with the brake to the back is just grossly negligent. In case of sudden loss of rope(fainting, slipping etc- and just look at his leisurely technique :o) theres nearly no means to even slightly stop the rope. When the device is faced like it should be(that is, to the active climber) he would just fall into the brake itself. It may be a hassle to pull in rope, but its a lot safer
Agree. Also, positioning himself on the lip holding miles of slack in his hand was entirely unnecessary. Tying a quick clove hitch with roughly the right length of rope, then readjusting it when in position would remove the possibility of a huge - and for the belayer - quite unexpected fall. Speed is safety in the mountains and all but that’s not the way to teach newbies who are presumably who the video is aimed at. (That said, cudos to Glenmore lodge for an excellent range of instructional videos.)
One trick that I use to solve the problem of too much rope in your hands when walking back to the edge of the crack, is to clip the central strand of rope between the two anchors points on a carabiners on the fig8 loop, instead of having it in your hands. This way if you fall over the edge, there is no slack in the system. Once you sit down just clove hitches on the same krab and youre done. Also has the benefit that both arms are perfectly equalised when sitting down before you clove hitch them
03:20 "on my harness just behind where my nuts are sitting" - would that be on the inside of the leg loops then? ;-)
man. now i wanna pick up trad climbing
2 piece meeting 8 to 10 is a good anchor, you can have 3 pieces in some rated 3 each and it won't be as strong? you Gear nuts worry to much! the forces imposed here should he fall will be similar to that of top rope so two pieces will suffice pretty well!you take factor 1 and 2 wangars on less going up but as soon as you use the word anchor suddenly that gear isn't safe you need everything crammed in everything has to be locked redundant systems backed up all the way into the nearest village !!!!!!!this anchor here is bomb proof! Principal placement is unnecessary!
+david Kerridge Glenmore Lodge belongs to SportScotland and is a state-run training venue for mountaineering. Their job is to teach absolute safety first, not to go "Yeah, well, that seems about good enough then ..."
at a 120 degree angle each piece of a two piece anchor experiences 100% of the force ie. there is redundancy but no load sharing, at higher angles the force is increased beyond 100%. At 90 deg each piece experiences 70%.
Dear Albertros. Thank you for your comment, we are unsure of why you suggest this device isnt recommended. We have double checked the footatage and are confident that we are using best practice. Are you based in the USA? We are aware that standard practise is different in Europe and what may seem alien to an American viewer is both perfectly safe but also usual technique in Europe. If you still beleive this is incorrect then by all means provide us with more information. Many Thanks
In reply to Sean Mackinnon. 'Best practice' is an interesting phrase as it implies one 'best' way to do things. What comes to be common practice in different countries is a product of the environment and collective experience of climbers and Instructors/Guides in that country. In the UK we tend to teach the 'semi -indirect' belay using the rope to tie in illustrated in the video first.
Great video but please lose annoying background music.
+Ray Crowe not just annoying but way too loud
Ruined an otherwise excellent video.
Nice video, used it as recap before going on trad climbing again
The euphemisms are strong in this one.
Great, glad you found it of use.
He looks exactly like Engineer
great explanation. thanks
this could be a form of torture for people with synesthesia...turn down the terrible music IF you must have it at all.
theres much more but i would trust this .
Hi there, you are right in that you need to be wary of where your leg sits in relation to the rope. In this case, the belay attachment to the rock is significantly higher than the belayer has positioned themself, therefore the line from rock to the second climber (or in this case the edge of the cliff) is high enough to prevent the leg from being significantly squashed.
Glad that actual climbing doesn't have background noise like that. Would never climb.
First time seeing an instructional video without a redirected belay. Good to see it as this is the simplest way despite having sone disadvantages.
100........super interesting 🧐
You guys should read about sound compression, limiting and mastering....
Did no one else notice he only set one point of contact for his belay? 9:08
No PSA? Fuck that
Hi there. In Trad climbing you would commonly 'top out' above the route and then once safe dismantle your belay and walk down. Most crags / mountains have descent paths leading off that make this feasible. If there isn't a path off then you would need to abseil - often using fixed gear already there or sometimes leaving a sling behind around a block for instance. The guide book usually gives you a good steer here either way.
And continuing again. Also at the crag in question the anchors are too far apart to equalise with a cordelette/slings at the top of many (most) of the routes. The rope allows equalisation of distant anchors (you are only limited by how much you have left). In a multi-pitch context where you will use a plate to belay the leader being attached to your anchors having rope in the system makes for a more dynamic 'catch' in the event of a big leader fall too.
that knot that you use for equalizing was it the Clove Hitch knot? Like the idea definably a little slower specially with multiple protection, but definably a new idea that I need to check it out. I been climbing for many year and I'm always learning something new!!! Thanks!
Continuing from the above post: Direct belaying such as you describe is also common in certain cases too but there are advantages to using the rope to tie in. Slings and cordelettes have little or no stretch in them, using the rope gives a more dynamic system and belaying off the rope loop increases that dynamism. This wont make poor anchors good but provides some protection for them.
It is useful for SINGLE PITCH CRAGS where you can walk off the top without any hassle. You don't need to be able to escape any system as the seconding climbing can be lowered at any point they so choose. And on such single pitch crags, anchors are often far apart and away so using the rope is the only logical way other than having a 20m cordelette. Read up on other countries practices before you find flaws in them.
...And finally. I do frequently direct belay as you describe (with close bombproof anchors- almost no bolted anchors on UK Trad climbs, when I'm doing all the leading on a MP route etc.) too. However we teach the shown system first as our experience shows it is the most flexible and appropriate for our type of climbing and crags. The 'best' system on the day is the one the climber chooses from their own range of tools and is safe and appropriate in that situation. Enjoy your climbing!
I've watched and re-watched the clip and I can't see him let go of the dead rope at any point around 13:40. Also, on single pitch it's a lot easier for the second to just walk away from the edge to a safe place than it is to clip them in. Exempting really gusty winds or steep/slippery ground at the top of the crag they aren't in much danger after topping out and taking a couple of steps.
Using both carabiners from a quick draw made me cringe. Even if the wall side has never seen a bolt, it seems like a bad practice to get into. The rest of the video was very informative so thank you for putting that together.
me too... this guy is full of bad habits and ideas i wouldnt fukn climb with him
@@mctrollerguy lol... a qualified mountaineering instructor
I know it's an old thread but I have a question,that may sound "bone" but....... Is it not necessary to tie a clovehitch at the anchor as well as the other end (@belayer)
Better not to. The method shown allows adjustments to be made when you're out of reach of the pieces of gear.
Great video, but the music getting super loud at various parts of the video is very annoying. It already woke up my neighbors, sigh.
Cheers al, great vid. I just have one question, How do you both get down to the bottom without leaving any gear at the top...sport climber wanting to go trad !!
Great vid. Learned a lot from it. More please :)
love the eye contact at 12:45
Hahaha! 🤣
This is the case in Canada too. I think America has different standards.
should have tied a catastrophe knot
The belay anchor isn't very practical. It uses up a ton of rope, it doesn't create a power point, and it's not the most effective way to achieve equalization nor would this work for multipitch. This may happen to work here but there are much more effective and efficient solutions to building a proper belay anchor. Plus it's just awkward to belay a follower off the harness.
Its perfect for the UK. Single pitch climbs are quite short so you have plenty of rope, but the anchors can be spaced very far apart. Rather than carry x20 slings, its easier just to use the rope
great video!thanks
how do you get your nuts n bolts back :P
+jesse white After the leader climbs, he or she belays the person below up to them. The person below climbs and retrieves the gear.
yeah cheers mate :)
i was taught that not long after the comment
Awesome. Have fun climbing!
Good info, bad editing. The music was way too loud, at ear damaging levels. You should do something about that.
deeez nuts
Beelay
00:29 deez nuts ?
and you're also about to take the second off belay before he's clipped into anything. dude.
Did you listen to the video? Clearly mentioned that the second was in a safe well back position before being taken off
This makes me nervous
Never Never take the brake hand off the Rope!!!
everything was good up until 13:40 when you took your brake hand off while belaying the second. that's climbing 101 bro.
Much too much, it's like listening to Adolf Hitler on PCP.
Why were you taking PCP and listening to Hitler?
Hi, when I was watching this video I thought the same as albertros. I think it isn`t standard for Austria and Germany to use this kind of belay to belay a second climber. The problem is that you have to be aware to pull the rope uphill when belaying the second climber which is exactly the difference as when belaying from the ground. Which I think is the reason why it isn't thought like that in Austria/Germany.
You are clipping the carabiners downward on your harness instead of upward?!
+Steven Thaw What´s wrong with that?! I do that aswell.
+Frantic Phil same, I find it so much easier to pull them off my harness than if clipped the other way
Still, only two anchor points for your top anchor?! Isn't it best to use a third piece if you have it?! Thank you.
He rated his two placements 5 or 4 out of five. He was happy with has placements. Also they nuts can hold a lot of weight much more than they two combined.
Loobo2012 rock quality and your best judgement dictate how many pieces to place, the correct response is as many as it takes to build a safe , equalized , solid , redundant this should be a no brainer! i would kick somebody in the f in nuts for belaying me with two pieces!
Dave Soderbloom Nuts are designed to hold the shock and force of a lead climber taking a long fall. One well placed piece of pro will save your life in a fall. That being said, _two_ bomber pieces will easily hold the weight of a climber in the event of a fall on top rope, which would have negligible shock load. And the dynamic rope being used and the two cloves hitches will also absorb a few kilo-newtons. That setup is perfect for what it's being used for, and totally safe. The only potential flaw is the lack of an auto-locking belay device.
Why take unnecessary risks I was always taught build anchors with no less than three pieces regardless of their "bomberness" if you have to bail out of a route and use one peice thats fine but why? because there shouldn't be a shock load unless you rap like a coked up mountain goat if your going to belay you should be smart enough to not take risks for other people what kind of climbing partner are you? Oh well Natural selection. I have an awesome family and two boys I climb paranoid but I have nothing to prove and too much to lose... I love my boys and my wife and that's not worth it to me. There is a reason for the saying "better judgment" it's because of dumb ass individuals like yourself that make less than bomber decisions bro totally rad of you and your skills to bless us with your argument to use less pro your idiotic and probably can't even crank 5.7 on top rope unless your an amga certified mountain guide keep your high speed advice to your climbing partner your going to kill lolz all day about people like you
Dave Soderbloom Wow, you're mad. I'm not a great climber but I'm not a shit climber. And I know what's safe and what's not. I also not only have family, but I climb _with_ my family, and they've been climbing longer than I have and know their shit. My mom has climbed with and learned from Malcolm Daly and Ron Kauk, and I've learned from a lot of pros. Yeah go ahead. Add a third piece. Add a fourth. Fuck it. Add 20 pieces if it makes you feel better. And as you trad climb, when you place a piece of pro, add three more pieces next to it. Just have two dozen cams on a 50 foot pitch. Why not? It's marginally safer, so why not do it, right? The truth is that two well placed pieces tied together like they are here will hold a two a lot of mass in a mostly static position, like they have in the video. If you've actually climbed outside in real life, you'd know that conditions aren't perfect and you have to improvise. You'd know that there's a large range of methods of protection on similar levels of safeness, and that you just have to do what works and what makes sense. There's redundancy, and then there's wasting time to backup your backup's backup's backup.
my only thought....no rope bag/mat !? lol
Why did you not build an anchor for your belayer? Ever heard of that?
Thank You.
When the belayer is standing on the ground it is not necessary to construct an anchor. Actually most people don't do it. If the climber fell he would be raised slightly or not so it is not required. If he was on a multi pitch climb and the belayer wasn't on the ground then yes he would need a anchor.
Loobo2012 Hahaha. I love reading things like this.
Always place three pieces of gear for the anchor.
A Camelot should be the first piece of gear placed for the anchor.