Best demo/video to date! I’ve had my freeze dryer about the same time as you, Phil. I wasn’t too sure of myself as I first started out FDing. I know that some of my bags had cool spots, but I trusted the FDer that it did the job. I didn’t know better and went on sealing my bags. I add on more dry time often to my loads to be certain my foods are COMPLETELY ABSOLUTELY dry. When using my sealed foods I am DEFINITELY going to use your 5 pointers on detecting if my foods are preserved properly and not spoiled. I would not be able to live with myself if I caused someone to get sick or worse-die, because I didn’t store food properly! I live by the saying, “when in doubt-throw it out “, too. Thanks for your devotion in teaching us! God watch over you and bless you, Dee.
I think the risk of botulism is the most concerning here. There is no smell or taste to warn of that. But if you're in doubt, you could cook it for about 10 minutes. Thank you so much for all your work you put into these videos.
... boil in water for 10 minutes, should kill any botulism. Any subsequent problems I've ever had, just tends to shoot straight through my gut... No problem, pop an anti-diarrhea pill. However, only pressure canned meat, and have always simply tossed suspicious dried meat.
I appreciate your scientific approach and watch all of your videos. The one on cross contamination is such great information and I shared it to all my friends in the freeze drying community. I left a comment there on a step I took after watching your video. Keep up the good work!
Thank you so much. As I have been using my Freeze dryer for a year, I have been questioning my initial batches are OK. I had trusted the machine to know when to quit, but now know better. I appreciate the info on how I can check it and know whether it is OK or not. You are an excellent teacher.
@@Philat4800feet. With your meat that failed, the size of the pieces you freeze dried may be a factor in success. A commercial freeze dry company I have bought from has patented a process to freeze dry slices of meat, filets, etc. They say that size is a potential problem with freeze drying at home. They process food for the military. Size is why most freeze dry companies freeze dry small pieces; it is to ensure that their process is good. This may help you with your success in freeze drying. I enjoyed your video and the meter us a great idea to use to be sure the food is of the best quality and safe. Thank you for great videos! 👍👍👍👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼😀🌸🍀
A friend just pointed me to your channel - I've been scared to invest in a freeze dryer as it's such an unknown, but you have given me a lot of confidence! THANKS!
Excellent video!! In order to remove most of the air when I seal the mylar I use the zip top mylar and put a drinking straw in and zip it shut on the straw leaving a small gap and suck out most of the air and then pull the straw out and seal it. You can also put a straw in the cut off corner of a pouch without a zipper and do the same. Great FD information Thanks!!
Fantastic and timely video. I've been very paranoid about future food poisoning (especially botulism), so the more information the better. Especially from you! Thanks for opening up some of your old batches for our education, and making me chuckle to boot. I've had food poisoning multiple times and I never wish to get it again. Last time (a month ago) was from spoiled canned beans a year out of date. Not sure I believe the FDA with their track record. Our ancestors would probably eat a lot of things we'd consider spoiled, but they were generally a lot healthier than us, so there's that. I'm very glad to see my testing protocol matches yours exactly, and that there don't seem to other hidden dangers I missed. It seems if there is enough moisture to cause botulism it will also cause regular spoilage too. One thing I've noticed with apple slices is that it is hard to tell - even a month after packaging - if they are staying good. Their FD texture is still not abundantly crunchy (even when dry), making it hard to tell from the outside if they are good or not. The two that went bad were pretty evident, but out of the rest none are particularly reassuring especially when vacuum sealed. On a positive note...freeze dried some brownies recently and was able to rehydrate them PERFECTLY over a boiling pot. Unbelievably good. My wife stated they will be a delicacy in a SHTF situation. Don't try doing the mix, because (for reasons obvious in retrospect) it wont work well.
Neva thought of COOKIES to Freeze Dry fer Desserts. BBQ Ribs (either) and Fwresh Eggs like about what a Freezer Tray holds of mixed Eggs count for 25-30 Eggs. Freeze Dry condiments in Zip Loc plastic bags. Trail Omelette with fixings & No broken Eggs
Use a gram scale and chart every batch and every bag, First weigh a tray of food when the machine time is up. Number each tray, chart the grams re dry for another 2 hours and check the weight, if the same ,it's done. bag it and chart the weight on the bag, years later weigh the bag before opening , if not the same ,air and moisture got in and will be heaver.. Keep a log book
Phil - I love your videos. Thank you so much for all that you do for this community. I'm a newbie and have been FD food for about 5 months. I've watched 20+ of your videos and have come to the realization that my two bins worth of FD food in mylar bags are most likely not going to be good in 15-25 yrs. I was using the OAs from HR that didn't come with a sensor and didn't know any better, so I would use 4 then reseal the bag it came in, use 4 more and reseal, then use the final 2. By the time the final two were used, who knows if the OAs were any good. So, now I'm realizing that I need to go into each mylar bag and put in a new OA. But now I am hearing about going a step further and vacuum sealing! Oy-vey! A few questions: 1. If my goal is to not tap into my FD food unless SHTF (could be 5-25 years from now) would you say that vacuum sealing is absolutely necessary due to the timespan we're talking about? 2. What is the purpose of doing the vent hole before you vacuum seal and doesn't that ruin the OA? 3. What do you think about the individually wrapped OAs on Amazon? I would think this would solve the problem of the OAs going bad quickly as you can use them as you go. 4. Do all vacuum pumps run on oil? or are there versions that are oil-free (like Harvest Right has). Would rather not have to deal with oil and worried about smell, as my work area for this is a small shed (little ventilation). 5. Would you recommend someone using their oil-free HR vacuum pump and just putting on the adapter to use the vacuum chamber each time they want to vacuum seal their FD food? Worried that the constant back and forth would cause too much stress on the pump. Better to have a designated pump for the FD and a designated one for the vacuum chamber? Thanks in advance - I SO appreciate your knowledge!
1. The number one goal is to remove oxygen. An oxygen absorber can do that, vacuum packing does it more. 2. The vent hole is needed for vacuum packing to allow the air inside to escape. Don't get too hung up with exposing the OA to air. It will take hours or days for an OA to work. I do the same as you with pack of ten OAs. 3. Either single packed, ten packed, or 50 packed use what you need and reseal or repackage into four-pack. 4. Please don't buy oil-less. The oil is needed to help remove low PH water from the pump, remove heat, and protect the metal. 5. Some of the vacuum chambers come with a vacuum pump. You can also vacuum pack inside the HR chamber by removing the shelves.
@@Philat4800feet Thank you for your thorough reply. Because the space I'm working in is a small shed without much ventilation I'm just worried about the strong oil smells and potential toxicity. Do you feel this would be a problem?
We've only been FDing about 150 days and occasionally some bags when opened the contents are mushy and soft like your roast beef. When put in bag they were hard and "crispy" like you mentioned. All passed the "extra" dry time weight test. I suspect it may be the high humidity in my basement where the FD machine is. Opened a bag of frozen sliced mushrooms from one of our e3arliest batches and they were soft and flexible. Same with some pineapple chunks.
I so appreciate this video! We are new to freeze drying and have been doing the easy stuff until now. What is the tool you are using and is it something the average person can buy? I've seen you use it in other videos and realized how handy it would be. Thanks Phil - Your channel is WONDERFUL!
If you're referring to the atmosphere tester, Search under: BW Technologies MC2-XWHM-Y-NA GasAlertMicroClip XT Four-Gas Detector, O2/CO/H2S/LEL They are expensive. I used the one from my work. I don't think they are needed for the common person and long as your sense of smell works.
So long as it's not quite the walking dead outside just yet. When in doubt throw it out is still better then taking a chance. Bacteria is very opportunistic, especially the particularly bad ones. I love my animals, so I wouldnt let them eat it either. Thanks for another great video Phil.
Hi Phil. Thanks for one more excellent demo. I'm very thankful as well for the video that you posted vacuum packing the bags. I have a large unit and use it for vacuuming my bags without taking the tray holder out. The large bags even fit in the tray holder. I do all my product this way. I'm wondering if you do vacuum the bags whether you would be more sure of a dry content at the end? I believe that I noticed that your bags that you were testing were not vacuumed, and that might have made a difference??
This is very valuable information to know! especially for those who freeze dry. It's a gold mind of information!!!! I don't feel my dairy foods actually crunch, is that a bad thing? Thank you!
Thank you for this! I've been looking for this information for awhile. I'm curious if you're familiar with Avid Armor chamber vacuum sealers and have any opinion on them? It does the vacuum and sealing all at once. I've found it useful so far for my mylar bags.
I have been going over my inventory and back in 2017 2018 I foolishly used 3.5 mil bags with sprayed aluminum not a true foil bag for SOME of my freeze-dried vegetables. All of the 3.5 mil bags with sprayed aluminum had moisture permeate, the food was ruined. The same batch of veggies I used a 5 mil foil bags were absolutely fine. That is why I am a little weary about the LDS bags. Although they are 7mil, they appear to have sprayed aluminum not a true solid foil. HOWEVER, I do trust the Mormons to sell a good product. And yes, I did watch your very informative tinsel, puncture test video TY... I recently ordered a vacuum chamber off eBay and it should come today! I did consider buying a VEVOR DZ260s/a commercial chamber vacuum sealer. It was about $150 more and there would be no need to cut a slit on the side of the bags...
I just pre-froze my 1st batch of eggs to get ready for freeze drier. 2 questions… How long do you keep them in the freezer or does it not matter? Also how long does it take your machine to freeze dry them? I have a medium size harvest right and I live in Alabama for reference. Thank you so much love your video!
Thank you for this. I think being uncertain of what to look out for has been a big factor in not doing batches consistently. Can you recommend any specific brand of mylar bags tough enough for vacuum sealing?
Hi Phil, Thank you for all your work etc, etc, etc! My question regarding this great new video makes me want to ask you about the FoodSaver vacuum... When I started FDing last summer, I used the FoodSaver sealer with their 'seal a meal' style bags and an O2 remover for some fruits and vegetables. I have watched the food in the bags continue to 'deflate' over the last year. As an example, the apple slices (~16 per apple) and watermelon (1/2 inch thick) are now almost flattened. They are still dry but could the vacuum bag/O2 combo keep squeezing them down over the last year? Is that possible? The same batch of apple and watermelon slices that I put in a mason jar and or Mylar bag alone at the same time are still crispy and full size. Both seemed completely dry at the time of packing. As a result, I don't vacuum pack my fruit and vegetables with the 'seal a meal' anymore. ***Question: Do your fruit/vegetables continue to deflate in your new vacuum chamber technique?*** Meat items seems to be fine in the 'seal a meal' vacuum bags after almost a year as compared to mason jars and mylar bags. Thank you for your thoughts. Teri in the Big Bend of Florida
There is a basic fact that oxygen, with time, will be able to move through plastics on a molecular level. "Mylar" bags are layered with plastic/metal foil/plastic. It's the metal foil that blocks air and light. Foodsaver bags are clear and thin. They're ok for the short term, but poor for the long run. I too have had the same results with foodsaver bags. After 3.5 years my food storage is still going strong and holding a vacuum.
That's another story. In a nutshell botulism "lives" in the ground/soil. It likes high moisture, low salt, low acid, low/no oxygen, and has spores in the air. It survives in a very low oxygen atmosphere. Washing veggies is a must. Poorly cooked food is a source.
Based on my research, you could be facing botulism with FD food that wasn't completely dried but packed with an oxygen absorber. I've seen numbers as low as 3%, but 10% seems to be the majority opinion. Fortunately it seems that if there is a botulism risk the food will be spoiled in such a way it won't pass the tests here. My rule of thumb is if it is moist it is getting tossed. Or donated to people in a apocalypse scenario with ample warning of the risks haha
Thanks for the really interesting video Phil! I have been noting weights on my bags and periodically weigh them to see if the amount changes. I figured any change in weight would indicate spoilage. Is that a good indicator? My thought were that if there was a seal leak it would get heavier. I'm not sure if other types of spoilage would decrease weight or add it. I would think Gassing would possible make the package lighter. Thanks again for sharing your research!
One of the laws of Physics is matter can't be destroyed. It can be altered or changed, but not destroyed. If you have a bag of food at 1200 grams, the food can break down into liquids or gases (Spoilage), but it will still weigh 1200 grams. The bag may get larger due to increased gases, but it will still weigh 1200 grams. Does this make sense?
I'm late finding this episode you made a year ago. Very helpful. I've had my FD a out the same time as you. I would love to get your recipe for your clam chowder so i can FD some. If you already made a video with that information could you point me to the date to look for it. I Cant find it by subject.
Clam Chowder 8 medium potatoes peeled and cubed small 1 medium onion minced 1 qt heavy cream and 1 qt. milk Or 2 qts half and half 4 cans (6.5 oz) chopped clams w/juice Salt and pepper to taste Cook potatoes and onions until soft. Mash most of the potatoes. Add cream and milk Add clams until hot but not tough (over cooked) Add seasoning
I'm wondering if one of those atmospheric testers would be able to detect if you had botulism growing in your food tasteless and odorless but would it still produce some sort of gas that you can detect with a detector?
Check out this link: www.ars.usda.gov/news-events/news/research-news/2014/botulism-causing-toxins-detected-promptly-by-ars-developed-test-strip/#:~:text=An%20ARS%2Ddeveloped%20test%20strip,for%20more%20information%20about%20it.
I noticed that all of your products are packed straight to the Mylar bags. I have packed in vacuum bags. After a few days I have found that the foods seemed to start to rehydrate. Turning a bit soft or even wet.
Could you not use the Freeze dryer vacuum pump and chamber to vacuum pack? Just remove shelves, add a piece of plywood as a shelf, plug the pump into an outlet ( not the freeze dryer outlet) and vacuum seal the bags?
Yup, and I did so for years, but unplugging and plugging in the harness over and over got me concerned that I would weaken the wires, so I purchased the vacuum chamber. Best thing I've done.
@@Philat4800feet I've got several 1000 of their 8x12 3.5 mil bags for my freeze dried food, I love them and they're only a dime in quantity. They're going out of business, so stock up while you can.
So, I am literally just ready to pour a BIG pot of home made clam chowder into trays to freeze. Does clam chowder not keep? Will it all be a waste? I made so much with the intent to freeze dry it. Now I dont know if it will be safe or a waste????
I have lots of clam chowder in my inventory. Go for it and enjoy it later in life. The clam chowder in my video was left out, in a warm place, for two weeks- anything like that would go bad.
Can you provide a reference for fat breaking down to H2O and CO2? I see that it is a mitochondrial process that takes place in the body. However, I cannot find any scientific references for it happening outside the body. On what basis are you applying this process to "dead" meat? Thanks!
The discussion I had was with a biochemist. The conditions would have to be from a combination of light, oxygen and temperature upon the stored food. Over time the food would become oxidized. From there some of the following compounds could form such as: Free Fatty Acids, Aldehydes and Ketones, Hydroperoxides, Epoxides, Alcohols, Carbonyl Compounds, Polymerized Products, and Malondialdehyde (MDA). By themselves the chance of turning into water is possible, but perhaps not probible without a metabolic processes.
Agree! We do FD raw eggs butvhave just learned how to home pasteurize them easily, first. Since we are preserving for long term use in potentially iffy prep situations we are pre-cooking any meats we FD, though. That way they can be eaten even without rehydrating/ warming if necessary. 👍
I was wondering if you know how long cooked eye of round steak with all the fat removed, then freeze dried, then ground to a powder. How long will it last in a glass container, (there is an oxygen obsorber in the jar) if you had to open it 2x's a day at room temperature? This is for my mother-in-law who has a feeding tube, she adds 2 tablespoons in the morning & evening. Thanks
Do you have a freeze dryer? It comes down to moisture too. If it starts to "clump" there may be too much moisture. You could put it back in the FD under " Add extra time". The heat and vacuum will help dry it out again.
@@Philat4800feet Yes, my husband & I have a harvest right freeze dryer. I was wondering, do You know happen to know how long the powdered meat will last if it is in a glass Jar opened 2 times a day at room temperature?
Question: I'm trying to figurebout the process of Fat spoiling your food. As I follow your process, the glucose turns into acid. From what I can find online, that process requires residual moisture. Can you please confirm that or discuss? If the food is fully dry then there should be no moisture. Or does the fat itself retain moisture? Thank you!
I tried to follow the path of what happens to fat. I believe there may be a better path from fat to moisture than what I proposed. Something turned my once "dry as a bone" ham into something near rubber. The research continues.
I'm also finding that it seems there's a difference between oil/grease and actual fat. Bacon is ok because the fat is rendered but a layer of fat on a steak or ham is not rendered and therefore is not ok. Does that sound possible? I'm not a chemist! 😀
@@proudcanadian7299 Good question. There is a factor of thickness as well. bacon is sliced thin and the fat renders well. A one inch steak is going to have a 1.00" thick band of fat. I have found adding fatty meats like sausage to other foods like hash browns help provide more surface area and the fat preserves better.
No, the weight remains the same, although the material inside may breakdown from solids to gas to liquids. If it's really bad the bag could swell from gas pressure.
Depending on how strong your vacuum is you may still have a fraction of air (oxygen) in your jar. Here's a test you can do: Vacuum seal an empty jar. place the jar in twice the amount of colored water upside down (1 quart jar = 2 quarts water), use a butter knife, under water to break the seal slowly, after the water rushes in, seal the jar with the lid using your fingers and lift the jar out. How much empty space do you have in your jar. 0.21% of any space will be oxygen. An oxygen absorber is an insurance policy to make sure you get all the oxygen out. I made a video on this: ua-cam.com/video/m33JH8oZLYk/v-deo.html
I set mine to 24 hours so if my run ends at say 2 AM and I wake up at 6:30 to go to work but I want 6 hours of extra dry time (minimum) I would need to let it run until 8am but I might not be able to deal with it right at that time so the 24 hours allows adequate time not only for the food but for my schedule
interesting that the raw eggs which are fairly high in fats had no spoilage like the ham did. I have been canning for 5 decades, dehydrating over 4 decades and freeze drying only a few years. I'm sorry but imho I do not think that ham spoiled just due to the fat content alone. Feel like theres something else going on there, hell I can get Pemmican to go over 5 years and it's based on tallow.
Before you sink a lot of money into a tester, I would have you think twice and consider the sniff test. Do a goggle/amazon search for: BW MCXL-XWHM-Y-NA-KIT GasAlertMicroClip XL 4 Confined Space Kit
I have a suspicion that Ground beef will be more tolerant of fat as the fat is broken up. A chunk of fat is harder to FD than same amount of ground up. A sliced cherry put together FDs better as the cut skin isn't water tight anymore. Pepperoni is thin sliced...
Best demo/video to date! I’ve had my freeze dryer about the same time as you, Phil. I wasn’t too sure of myself as I first started out FDing. I know that some of my bags had cool spots, but I trusted the FDer that it did the job. I didn’t know better and went on sealing my bags. I add on more dry time often to my loads to be certain my foods are COMPLETELY ABSOLUTELY dry. When using my sealed foods I am DEFINITELY going to use your 5 pointers on detecting if my foods are preserved properly and not spoiled. I would not be able to live with myself if I caused someone to get sick or worse-die, because I didn’t store food properly! I live by the saying, “when in doubt-throw it out “, too. Thanks for your devotion in teaching us! God watch over you and bless you, Dee.
Kind words
Look at how many people dumpster dive around stores, restaurants and are still walking around. Great video!!
Probably the best I have seen so far on this subject!
I think the risk of botulism is the most concerning here. There is no smell or taste to warn of that. But if you're in doubt, you could cook it for about 10 minutes. Thank you so much for all your work you put into these videos.
... boil in water for 10 minutes, should kill any botulism. Any subsequent problems I've ever had, just tends to shoot straight through my gut... No problem, pop an anti-diarrhea pill. However, only pressure canned meat, and have always simply tossed suspicious dried meat.
Great demonstration
As always I gain so much knowledge from your videos. Thank you. 😊
Such a great and informative video!! Thank you!
Great video. Very informative. Thank-you!
I appreciate your scientific approach and watch all of your videos. The one on cross contamination is such great information and I shared it to all my friends in the freeze drying community. I left a comment there on a step I took after watching your video.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks for the support.
Thank you so much. As I have been using my Freeze dryer for a year, I have been questioning my initial batches are OK. I had trusted the machine to know when to quit, but now know better. I appreciate the info on how I can check it and know whether it is OK or not. You are an excellent teacher.
Blush...Thank you
@@Philat4800feet. With your meat that failed, the size of the pieces you freeze dried may be a factor in success.
A commercial freeze dry company I have bought from has patented a process to freeze dry slices of meat, filets, etc. They say that size is a potential problem with freeze drying at home. They process food for the military.
Size is why most freeze dry companies freeze dry small pieces; it is to ensure that their process is good. This may help you with your success in freeze drying. I enjoyed your video and the meter us a great idea to use to be sure the food is of the best quality and safe. Thank you for great videos! 👍👍👍👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼😀🌸🍀
Great information! Thank you.
Great job! Thank you so much
A friend just pointed me to your channel - I've been scared to invest in a freeze dryer as it's such an unknown, but you have given me a lot of confidence! THANKS!
Careful, freeze drying is addictive.
That was really helpful information. Thank you.. but it sure makes me wonder now about my food storage.😮 I guess I'll try the crunch test, etc.
Excellent video!! In order to remove most of the air when I seal the mylar I use the zip top mylar and put a drinking straw in and zip it shut on the straw leaving a small gap and suck out most of the air and then pull the straw out and seal it. You can also put a straw in the cut off corner of a pouch without a zipper and do the same. Great FD information Thanks!!
What great knowledge to share!
Glad it was helpful
Excellent information! Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Fantastic and timely video. I've been very paranoid about future food poisoning (especially botulism), so the more information the better. Especially from you! Thanks for opening up some of your old batches for our education, and making me chuckle to boot. I've had food poisoning multiple times and I never wish to get it again. Last time (a month ago) was from spoiled canned beans a year out of date. Not sure I believe the FDA with their track record. Our ancestors would probably eat a lot of things we'd consider spoiled, but they were generally a lot healthier than us, so there's that.
I'm very glad to see my testing protocol matches yours exactly, and that there don't seem to other hidden dangers I missed. It seems if there is enough moisture to cause botulism it will also cause regular spoilage too.
One thing I've noticed with apple slices is that it is hard to tell - even a month after packaging - if they are staying good. Their FD texture is still not abundantly crunchy (even when dry), making it hard to tell from the outside if they are good or not. The two that went bad were pretty evident, but out of the rest none are particularly reassuring especially when vacuum sealed.
On a positive note...freeze dried some brownies recently and was able to rehydrate them PERFECTLY over a boiling pot. Unbelievably good. My wife stated they will be a delicacy in a SHTF situation. Don't try doing the mix, because (for reasons obvious in retrospect) it wont work well.
Neva thought of COOKIES to Freeze Dry fer Desserts. BBQ Ribs (either) and Fwresh Eggs like about what a Freezer Tray holds of mixed Eggs count for 25-30 Eggs. Freeze Dry condiments in Zip Loc plastic bags. Trail Omelette with fixings & No broken Eggs
Use a gram scale and chart every batch and every bag, First weigh a tray of food when the machine time is up. Number each tray, chart the grams re dry for another 2 hours and check the weight, if the same ,it's done. bag it and chart the weight on the bag, years later weigh the bag before opening , if not the same ,air and moisture got in and will be heaver.. Keep a log book
You should have named your channel 'Wilson at 4800 feet' since we've never seen your face just like Wilson off the Tim Allen Home Improvement TV show.
No one wants to see my mug. I try not to be the subject of my work.
Great info. I just ordered harvest Right freeze dryer couple days ago , so info will save me some mistakes. Thanks👍
Enjoy the ride
Thanks for this!
Thanks for this video, very informative.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you!! Great vid!
literally fart gas. you just lit a fart!!!!! lol lol
Excellent content
Much appreciated
Thank you
Phil - I love your videos. Thank you so much for all that you do for this community. I'm a newbie and have been FD food for about 5 months. I've watched 20+ of your videos and have come to the realization that my two bins worth of FD food in mylar bags are most likely not going to be good in 15-25 yrs. I was using the OAs from HR that didn't come with a sensor and didn't know any better, so I would use 4 then reseal the bag it came in, use 4 more and reseal, then use the final 2. By the time the final two were used, who knows if the OAs were any good. So, now I'm realizing that I need to go into each mylar bag and put in a new OA. But now I am hearing about going a step further and vacuum sealing! Oy-vey!
A few questions:
1. If my goal is to not tap into my FD food unless SHTF (could be 5-25 years from now) would you say that vacuum sealing is absolutely necessary due to the timespan we're talking about?
2. What is the purpose of doing the vent hole before you vacuum seal and doesn't that ruin the OA?
3. What do you think about the individually wrapped OAs on Amazon? I would think this would solve the problem of the OAs going bad quickly as you can use them as you go.
4. Do all vacuum pumps run on oil? or are there versions that are oil-free (like Harvest Right has). Would rather not have to deal with oil and worried about smell, as my work area for this is a small shed (little ventilation).
5. Would you recommend someone using their oil-free HR vacuum pump and just putting on the adapter to use the vacuum chamber each time they want to vacuum seal their FD food? Worried that the constant back and forth would cause too much stress on the pump. Better to have a designated pump for the FD and a designated one for the vacuum chamber?
Thanks in advance - I SO appreciate your knowledge!
1. The number one goal is to remove oxygen. An oxygen absorber can do that, vacuum packing does it more.
2. The vent hole is needed for vacuum packing to allow the air inside to escape. Don't get too hung up with exposing the OA to air. It will take hours or days for an OA to work. I do the same as you with pack of ten OAs.
3. Either single packed, ten packed, or 50 packed use what you need and reseal or repackage into four-pack.
4. Please don't buy oil-less. The oil is needed to help remove low PH water from the pump, remove heat, and protect the metal.
5. Some of the vacuum chambers come with a vacuum pump. You can also vacuum pack inside the HR chamber by removing the shelves.
@@Philat4800feet Thank you for your thorough reply. Because the space I'm working in is a small shed without much ventilation I'm just worried about the strong oil smells and potential toxicity. Do you feel this would be a problem?
We've only been FDing about 150 days and occasionally some bags when opened the contents are mushy and soft like your roast beef. When put in bag they were hard and "crispy" like you mentioned. All passed the "extra" dry time weight test. I suspect it may be the high humidity in my basement where the FD machine is. Opened a bag of frozen sliced mushrooms from one of our e3arliest batches and they were soft and flexible. Same with some pineapple chunks.
You might need to double seal the bags...?
You're so knowledgeable and have a lot of fun gadgets. Just out of curiosity, what is your background in? Thanks for this video, good info.
Technical Operations Manager
I so appreciate this video! We are new to freeze drying and have been doing the easy stuff until now. What is the tool you are using and is it something the average person can buy? I've seen you use it in other videos and realized how handy it would be. Thanks Phil - Your channel is WONDERFUL!
If you're referring to the atmosphere tester, Search under:
BW Technologies MC2-XWHM-Y-NA GasAlertMicroClip XT Four-Gas Detector, O2/CO/H2S/LEL
They are expensive. I used the one from my work. I don't think they are needed for the common person and long as your sense of smell works.
So long as it's not quite the walking dead outside just yet. When in doubt throw it out is still better then taking a chance. Bacteria is very opportunistic, especially the particularly bad ones. I love my animals, so I wouldnt let them eat it either. Thanks for another great video Phil.
Hi Phil. Thanks for one more excellent demo. I'm very thankful as well for the video that you posted vacuum packing the bags.
I have a large unit and use it for vacuuming my bags without taking the tray holder out.
The large bags even fit in the tray holder.
I do all my product this way.
I'm wondering if you do vacuum the bags whether you would be more sure of a dry content at the end? I believe that I noticed that your bags that you were testing were not vacuumed, and that might have made a difference??
Back then, many of my bags weren't vacuum packed. Since Oct, 2022 all my bags are vacuum packed to some degree.
This is very valuable information to know! especially for those who freeze dry. It's a gold mind of information!!!! I don't feel my dairy foods actually crunch, is that a bad thing? Thank you!
Some dairy is so fine of a powder it may not crunch. If it's still dry I wouldn't worry.
Thank you for this! I've been looking for this information for awhile. I'm curious if you're familiar with Avid Armor chamber vacuum sealers and have any opinion on them? It does the vacuum and sealing all at once. I've found it useful so far for my mylar bags.
I've heard of them, but never tried one.
What do I find the pot vacuum sealer? Your video is fascinating!
Click this link ua-cam.com/video/CDj02lxBFiQ/v-deo.html
Little smokies have high salt as well, which is preservative.
Good point
I have been going over my inventory and back in 2017 2018 I foolishly used 3.5 mil bags with sprayed aluminum not a true foil bag for SOME of my freeze-dried vegetables. All of the 3.5 mil bags with sprayed aluminum had moisture permeate, the food was ruined. The same batch of veggies I used a 5 mil foil bags were absolutely fine. That is why I am a little weary about the LDS bags. Although they are 7mil, they appear to have sprayed aluminum not a true solid foil. HOWEVER, I do trust the Mormons to sell a good product. And yes, I did watch your very informative tinsel, puncture test video TY... I recently ordered a vacuum chamber off eBay and it should come today! I did consider buying a VEVOR DZ260s/a commercial chamber vacuum sealer. It was about $150 more and there would be no need to cut a slit on the side of the bags...
I do like the thicker bags
I just pre-froze my 1st batch of eggs to get ready for freeze drier. 2 questions… How long do you keep them in the freezer or does it not matter? Also how long does it take your machine to freeze dry them? I have a medium size harvest right and I live in Alabama for reference. Thank you so much love your video!
1. I Prefreeze my food overnight and then wait until the chamber is around 5-10 degrees before putting them in.
2. My cycles are around 24-36 hours
Thank you for this. I think being uncertain of what to look out for has been a big factor in not doing batches consistently. Can you recommend any specific brand of mylar bags tough enough for vacuum sealing?
My testing shows Discount Myler:
ua-cam.com/video/CtQLV4m0SY0/v-deo.html
@@Philat4800feet Perfect, thanks!
Hi Phil,
Thank you for all your work etc, etc, etc! My question regarding this great new video makes me want to ask you about the FoodSaver vacuum... When I started FDing last summer, I used the FoodSaver sealer with their 'seal a meal' style bags and an O2 remover for some fruits and vegetables. I have watched the food in the bags continue to 'deflate' over the last year. As an example, the apple slices (~16 per apple) and watermelon (1/2 inch thick) are now almost flattened. They are still dry but could the vacuum bag/O2 combo keep squeezing them down over the last year? Is that possible? The same batch of apple and watermelon slices that I put in a mason jar and or Mylar bag alone at the same time are still crispy and full size. Both seemed completely dry at the time of packing. As a result, I don't vacuum pack my fruit and vegetables with the 'seal a meal' anymore.
***Question: Do your fruit/vegetables continue to deflate in your new vacuum chamber technique?***
Meat items seems to be fine in the 'seal a meal' vacuum bags after almost a year as compared to mason jars and mylar bags.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Teri
in the Big Bend of Florida
There is a basic fact that oxygen, with time, will be able to move through plastics on a molecular level. "Mylar" bags are layered with plastic/metal foil/plastic. It's the metal foil that blocks air and light. Foodsaver bags are clear and thin. They're ok for the short term, but poor for the long run. I too have had the same results with foodsaver bags. After 3.5 years my food storage is still going strong and holding a vacuum.
Love your videos. Was wondering if you had a link to the chamber vacuum machine? Or the brand name??? Thanks for sharing your knowledge...
ua-cam.com/video/CDj02lxBFiQ/v-deo.html
Couldn't you just use your freeze dryer to pull a vacuum?
Hi Phil, great video. When does botulisum come into play.
That's another story. In a nutshell botulism "lives" in the ground/soil. It likes high moisture, low salt, low acid, low/no oxygen, and has spores in the air. It survives in a very low oxygen atmosphere. Washing veggies is a must. Poorly cooked food is a source.
Based on my research, you could be facing botulism with FD food that wasn't completely dried but packed with an oxygen absorber. I've seen numbers as low as 3%, but 10% seems to be the majority opinion.
Fortunately it seems that if there is a botulism risk the food will be spoiled in such a way it won't pass the tests here. My rule of thumb is if it is moist it is getting tossed. Or donated to people in a apocalypse scenario with ample warning of the risks haha
I agree, low or no oxygen, moisture, and low acid is a recipe for botulism. But you can't smell or taste it.
@@47retta That's why food preparation is so important.
@@Philat4800feet Hi Phil, whats your take on this video ua-cam.com/video/43ieIl3EB8k/v-deo.html
Thanks for the really interesting video Phil! I have been noting weights on my bags and periodically weigh them to see if the amount changes. I figured any change in weight would indicate spoilage. Is that a good indicator? My thought were that if there was a seal leak it would get heavier. I'm not sure if other types of spoilage would decrease weight or add it. I would think Gassing would possible make the package lighter. Thanks again for sharing your research!
One of the laws of Physics is matter can't be destroyed. It can be altered or changed, but not destroyed. If you have a bag of food at 1200 grams, the food can break down into liquids or gases (Spoilage), but it will still weigh 1200 grams. The bag may get larger due to increased gases, but it will still weigh 1200 grams. Does this make sense?
Rancid foods mostly likely won't make you sick. They'll just taste "off".
@@Philat4800feet Yes and thank you for the information. So if the seal breaks down it would get heavier from outside influence?
@@Philat4800feet Will have a pile of "desperation" food..lol...
@@robynlay3917 yes, then the weight could change.
I'm late finding this episode you made a year ago. Very helpful. I've had my FD a out the same time as you.
I would love to get your recipe for your clam chowder so i can FD some. If you already made a video with that information could you point me to the date to look for it. I Cant find it by subject.
Clam Chowder
8 medium potatoes peeled and cubed small
1 medium onion minced
1 qt heavy cream and 1 qt. milk
Or
2 qts half and half
4 cans (6.5 oz) chopped clams w/juice
Salt and pepper to taste
Cook potatoes and onions until soft. Mash most of the potatoes.
Add cream and milk
Add clams until hot but not tough (over cooked)
Add seasoning
Have you tried vacuum sealing in your Harvest Right? It works well for me.
Yes, but it's troublesome having to remove the shelf and dealing with the ice.
I've actually had some #10 cans of freeze dried food from Auguson Farms explode .. what a mess!!
Oof. I'd be pretty upset about that.
I'm wondering if one of those atmospheric testers would be able to detect if you had botulism growing in your food tasteless and odorless but would it still produce some sort of gas that you can detect with a detector?
Hard to say. This is a new era and hasn't been studied enough. I'm hoping the extension services with help out on this subject.
Can you figure out a way to test for botulism on canned products? Maybe some type of paper strip like they use for Ph?
Check out this link:
www.ars.usda.gov/news-events/news/research-news/2014/botulism-causing-toxins-detected-promptly-by-ars-developed-test-strip/#:~:text=An%20ARS%2Ddeveloped%20test%20strip,for%20more%20information%20about%20it.
I noticed that all of your products are packed straight to the Mylar bags. I have packed in vacuum bags. After a few days I have found that the foods seemed to start to rehydrate. Turning a bit soft or even wet.
Sound like you need more dry time and your trapping some moisture in with your food.
would adding the moisture absorber help?
I'd rather see the food drier. A moisture absorber would still contain moisture. I wouldn't take the chance.
Could you not use the Freeze dryer vacuum pump and chamber to vacuum pack? Just remove shelves, add a piece of plywood as a shelf, plug the pump into an outlet ( not the freeze dryer outlet) and vacuum seal the bags?
Yup, and I did so for years, but unplugging and plugging in the harness over and over got me concerned that I would weaken the wires, so I purchased the vacuum chamber. Best thing I've done.
Someone may have already asked this. Why not use the vacuum function on the FD?
Having to pull the shelf assemble in and out.
Can you share where you got that vacuum pump and what are the best bags to purchase. Thank you!
Vacuum pump was from Harvest Right
Vacuum Chamber was from Amazon. ua-cam.com/video/CDj02lxBFiQ/v-deo.html
The best bags, so far, are from Discount Mylar
ua-cam.com/video/PrT7JVJWkPI/v-deo.html
@@Philat4800feet I've got several 1000 of their 8x12 3.5 mil bags for my freeze dried food, I love them and they're only a dime in quantity. They're going out of business, so stock up while you can.
What’s the name of the device you used again?
BW TECHNOLOGIES Multi-Gas Detector Confined Space Kit, 4 Gas,
So, I am literally just ready to pour a BIG pot of home made clam chowder into trays to freeze. Does clam chowder not keep? Will it all be a waste? I made so much with the intent to freeze dry it. Now I dont know if it will be safe or a waste????
I have lots of clam chowder in my inventory. Go for it and enjoy it later in life. The clam chowder in my video was left out, in a warm place, for two weeks- anything like that would go bad.
@@Philat4800feet By left out, do you mean in the mylar bags with O2 absorbers?
Could adding moisture absorbers help with the conversion of the fat to water?
Perhaps, but if the Big 3: Oxygen, Light, and Heat are removed then fat and oils really can't spoil and go rancid.
You mentioned the conversion of the fat to water regarding your ham. Was that pkg exposed to heat, light, or oxygen? It might be a worthy experiment?
Can you provide a reference for fat breaking down to H2O and CO2? I see that it is a mitochondrial process that takes place in the body. However, I cannot find any scientific references for it happening outside the body. On what basis are you applying this process to "dead" meat? Thanks!
The discussion I had was with a biochemist. The conditions would have to be from a combination of light, oxygen and temperature upon the stored food. Over time the food would become oxidized. From there some of the following compounds could form such as: Free Fatty Acids, Aldehydes and Ketones, Hydroperoxides, Epoxides, Alcohols, Carbonyl Compounds, Polymerized Products, and Malondialdehyde (MDA). By themselves the chance of turning into water is possible, but perhaps not probible without a metabolic processes.
I would say.. cook all your meats first, before FD'ing.
I'm in agreement especially after seeing his video on raw cross contamination.
Agree! We do FD raw eggs butvhave just learned how to home pasteurize them easily, first. Since we are preserving for long term use in potentially iffy prep situations we are pre-cooking any meats we FD, though. That way they can be eaten even without rehydrating/ warming if necessary. 👍
I'll still need my raw pork for Wiener Schnitzel
I think the Turkey Little Smokies would do much better.
To test if it is bad, feed to neighbor or prisoners, if they die it is bad.
I think the Supremum Court upheld the cruel and inhuman punishment clause.
Where did you get ur sealer?
It was the sealer included with my freeze drier from HR
I was wondering if you know how long cooked eye of round steak with all the fat removed, then freeze dried, then ground to a powder. How long will it last in a glass container, (there is an oxygen obsorber in the jar) if you had to open it 2x's a day at room temperature?
This is for my mother-in-law who has a feeding tube, she adds 2 tablespoons in the morning & evening.
Thanks
Do you have a freeze dryer? It comes down to moisture too. If it starts to "clump" there may be too much moisture. You could put it back in the FD under " Add extra time". The heat and vacuum will help dry it out again.
@@Philat4800feet Yes, my husband & I have a harvest right freeze dryer.
I was wondering, do You know happen to know how long the powdered meat will last if it is in a glass Jar opened 2 times a day at room temperature?
@@bmb1881 until it starts absorbing moisture. Then freeze dry again. I don't know how to calculate how many days.
What metal are you using?
Metal?
Question: I'm trying to figurebout the process of Fat spoiling your food. As I follow your process, the glucose turns into acid. From what I can find online, that process requires residual moisture. Can you please confirm that or discuss? If the food is fully dry then there should be no moisture. Or does the fat itself retain moisture?
Thank you!
I tried to follow the path of what happens to fat. I believe there may be a better path from fat to moisture than what I proposed. Something turned my once "dry as a bone" ham into something near rubber. The research continues.
I'm also finding that it seems there's a difference between oil/grease and actual fat. Bacon is ok because the fat is rendered but a layer of fat on a steak or ham is not rendered and therefore is not ok. Does that sound possible? I'm not a chemist! 😀
@@proudcanadian7299 Good question. There is a factor of thickness as well. bacon is sliced thin and the fat renders well. A one inch steak is going to have a 1.00" thick band of fat. I have found adding fatty meats like sausage to other foods like hash browns help provide more surface area and the fat preserves better.
Where did you get your tool?
Amazon, I bowered it from work.
Does spoilage cause the bag to gain weight?
No, the weight remains the same, although the material inside may breakdown from solids to gas to liquids. If it's really bad the bag could swell from gas pressure.
Where did you find the tester
You can find them online between $500 to $100. Search for Portable Gas Detector, H2S, O2, CO and LEL 4
I vacuum seal my jars I didn’t see the need for and oxygen absorbers if they are vacuum sealed. Am I wrong should I use oxygen absorbers in my jars?
Depending on how strong your vacuum is you may still have a fraction of air (oxygen) in your jar. Here's a test you can do: Vacuum seal an empty jar. place the jar in twice the amount of colored water upside down (1 quart jar = 2 quarts water), use a butter knife, under water to break the seal slowly, after the water rushes in, seal the jar with the lid using your fingers and lift the jar out. How much empty space do you have in your jar. 0.21% of any space will be oxygen.
An oxygen absorber is an insurance policy to make sure you get all the oxygen out. I made a video on this:
ua-cam.com/video/m33JH8oZLYk/v-deo.html
@@Philat4800feetThank you! I’ll check out your video, but I’ll go back and put oxygen absorbers in my jars.
My machine automatically adds on 2 extra hours dry time. How much would you typically add on to that 2 hours?
12 is a great time, as it allows it to keep going for a long time while you are away. I've noticed a lot of my batches require at least 6 hours extra.
I like 12 hours to take care of work and sleeping.
I set mine to 24 hours so if my run ends at say 2 AM and I wake up at 6:30 to go to work but I want 6 hours of extra dry time (minimum) I would need to let it run until 8am but I might not be able to deal with it right at that time so the 24 hours allows adequate time not only for the food but for my schedule
@@Aweber87 You can't dry too much
interesting that the raw eggs which are fairly high in fats had no spoilage like the ham did. I have been canning for 5 decades, dehydrating over 4 decades and freeze drying only a few years. I'm sorry but imho I do not think that ham spoiled just due to the fat content alone. Feel like theres something else going on there, hell I can get Pemmican to go over 5 years and it's based on tallow.
love thee work that you put into you videos very helpful.
Good points
Where can I purchase this machine to test my food
Before you sink a lot of money into a tester, I would have you think twice and consider the sniff test.
Do a goggle/amazon search for:
BW MCXL-XWHM-Y-NA-KIT GasAlertMicroClip XL 4 Confined Space Kit
Does anyone chamber seal or vacuum seal their food in mylar bags after freeze drying.
Not that I know, sorry
I do. I always add an absorber pack too. They give off moisture so I also add a silica gel moisture absorber.
H2S = Hyrodgen sulfide. HSO4 = hydrogen sulfate
Thanks for the clarification.
Could you link thus device please?
I used one from work. Search this phrase:
BW MCXL-XWHM-Y-NA-KIT GasAlertMicroClip XL 4 Confined Space Kit
I have a suspicion that Ground beef will be more tolerant of fat as the fat is broken up. A chunk of fat is harder to FD than same amount of ground up.
A sliced cherry put together FDs better as the cut skin isn't water tight anymore.
Pepperoni is thin sliced...
Good thoughts
I'll feed that one to the zombies 🤪
Funny
Is raw roast beef raw if it is roasted? Enjoyed the video. Good Stuff, Thanks for sharing
Raw as never been exposed to heat
@@Philat4800feet Then it is not roast beef, maybe beef roast and btw I am just funning with you, Love your videos.
@@misterp158 ;)