Glider Cloud Flying 2023
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- Cloud flying during summer of 2023 in LS8-st glider over Southern Finland skies.
FAQ
1. This looks absolutely crazy, it has to be illegal
The European Aviation Authority (EASA) has regulations that set the framework for how to fly gliders in clouds. Your national authorities may prohibit this, or make it very difficult. Mine does not; they abide by the EASA regulations. You need a cloud flying rating, and the glider needs to have proper instruments. In short, it is legal. I have over 3500 hrs flight time in gliders with 15 year experience of cloud flying. I am a flight instructor and also teach cloud flying ratings.
2. This looks very dangerous
Cloud flying is only done by pilots who have received training and a rating. We have a very good safety record; accidents are practically non-existent.
3. You are flying very close to clouds, breaking minimum distance to cloud VMC minima
Cloud flying is done in IMC conditions, so VMC minima do not apply.
4. You risk colliding with other planes in clouds
In controlled airspace, we get clearance from ATC, who keeps traffic separated. In uncontrolled airspace, we broadcast cloud flying on a common frequency and take care of the separation ourselves. I have a transponder and FLARM, though they are not required by regulations.
5. Icing is very dangerous
Icing degrades the glide performance of the glider, but it remains totally controllable. Ice sheds away below the zero level. Icing of pitot and total energy ports leads to some instruments (ASI, variometer) becoming inoperable. We practice for this during training. If we lose an instrument, we exit the cloud and descend to an altitude where ice melts away.
6. It looks totally awesome
Yes.
#Gliding #CloudFlying #Cloudsurfing #glider #sailplane #soaring
No matter what aircraft you are in this is an amazing experience. I’ve done this in gliders, light aircraft and jet airliners. One of the most memorable experiences was flying over a “dish” of cloud created by wave. Above us was the blue sky and sun and below us a was our shadow on the cloud surrounded by a circular rainbow. That was more than 45 years ago.
this is exactly why i wanna become a glider pilot somewhere in the future. the views (especially at cloud level/when cloud surfing) are just stunning. good stuff.
Yeah it would be great
Idk if I can fly one with slightly not working legs though 😅
@@JesseGudgeon2007 There actually Gliders without Rudder Pedals, so the Rudder is Controled by a Small Wheel in your left Hand, so Yes its Possible even without legs :)
Become a pilot of an aircraft with an engine. That way you can stay up there
@@coasternut3091 wayyy to boring
Your question, "I could patch together 15-20 min video at some point. Anyone interested?"
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YESS!!! PULEASE.
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I have watched your video about 5 times now!!! It is so relaxing and AWESOME!... oh an I have now started watching your other channel videos. I am so jealous you are allowed to fly in clouds. We can never get a gold height in our area.
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Honestly though... When we go flying there are so many light aircraft flying by and they don't appear to be looking out. I have had a massive twin-prop otter fly under me, I have called out to aircraft who were on a collision course - and they don't respond (I have priority) so I have to divert. Our airways are very busy and I would be afraid of cloud flying in my area.
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I am now working on an OGN system to be able to see who is out there.
Amazing, thank you for the clip.
Beautiful!
Clouds look beautiful from the air (not like flat-bottom from the ground). I love how you turned at their side and followed their contour line.And also when you aimed at the narrow strait among them. I guess this is not an uncommon desire among pilots 😇
High Flight by John Gillespie Magee
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I’ve climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov’ring there,
I’ve chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air…
Up, up the long, delirious burning blue
I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or ever eagle flew -
And, while with silent, lifting mind I’ve trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.
Lovely, thanks!
Love it, nice views, chill cloudsurfing! Good setup with the certified T&S, electronic AHRS and the GPS worm on the Oudie. The vario doesn't seem to mind the icing either 👍 Might not be the fastest way to fly (not sure how much the icing does to the polar exactly) but the experience looks amazing and so worth it. And sometimes you just need that extra altitude for a jump or a final glide and then it *is* actually super useful 🤩
Tbh the vario is first instrument to get ice, thats why it was reading zero 😂 Inertial variometer works still.
@@krasw good to know, losing the vario quickly has happened to me as well. Had to use the uncompensated one on my phone (XCsoar) which wasn't that great. I always wondered if a different probe would be better (like the Carbonaero ball style one). But using an inertial vario is even better. Need to shell out that money to get a V8 and HAWK I guess (or look at Larus but staying with the main LX unit seems more comfortable).
@@ThermalWave The bigger problem is pitot probe ice, you can lose ASI while in cloud. Luckily my LS8 has engine and thus dual pitot probes that can be switched. Other one always works when first one is blocked.
Simply magical 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Wow that looks fun! Nice touch doing the FAQ's too (saves a lot of hassle). Thanks!!
I think in Canada, no IFR for glider, and no cloud exception in Class G. We can, however, go OTT, but no closer than 500 above/below, and distance alongside is dependent on the class of airspace. However, I have gone closer laterally if I can see around a cloud when the cloud is low and sparse. As tempting as it is, I've never gone through a cloud that I cannot see through.
In spite of this, I've received training to descend through cloud without gyroscopic instruments; a benign spiral. I don't know if all clubs teach that, but ours does. It's one of those things you should know, if ever you get into such a situation.
Fly safe. Love seeing videos like this, even if I can't experience it in real life.
Have you ever tried that benign spiral with zero (and I mean zero, not those stupid foggles) visual reference? I've got around 25 hours of strictly logged actual IMC and I'm dubious about the success rate of using just a whiskey compass in an emergency.
I've not flown in IMC conditions ... it's not allowed here, and I lack the instrumentation. The other use of the benign spiral is to lose altitude more quickly, so I've used it when near the airfield and have decided to burn the altitude to land sooner. Before I owned my own glider, if someone is waiting to use a club glider we are flying, we need to be back in an hour so they can fly it.
@@MiG82au with fully extended airbrakes a neutral-trimmed glider with no input at the controls enters a stable spiral at a safe speed, this is the "benign spiral" he is talking about. It is a safe plan B if you lose your attitude awareness. A plan B that powered aircraft, unfortunately, do not have.
Tried myself, entering with various initial attitudes and worked every time. It's an indirect result of certification criteria on the airbrakes efficacy.
That cloud surf... Awesome 🤙
Well, stay healthy for all of us & Safety First! Peace across the Globe ✌😉
Thank’s to share this great time in the air among clouds 👍
Very nice sky and wonderful video i like it.i wached the video until the end.i enjoyed it is very much thank you
2:38. Ice. ! There I was afraid for. L/D ? 25 ? If you pitot becomes clogged, the gps-speed is your safe guard. But stall speed goes up as well, more than you think, beware!
Nevertheless: excellent pictures.
25-30 LD is realistical. I have switchable double pitot tubes. If you want to see the actual stall with icy wing, it is here: ua-cam.com/video/KtOtn4R9om0/v-deo.htmlsi=HjwOQE26pE7w4kqc&t=807
Wow, that was otherworldly.
Congratulations, it's a pretty awesome experience getting in amongst it. Whilst my day wasn't as developed as this, it ended up with gold height and duration. Cherry on the cake was getting into a bit of wave conditions. Love our sport. ❤
Thanks mate!
absolutely incredible footage
Wow oh wow. Every fibre of my being (and my training) says this is an absolute NO!!!. But it looks like an amazing experience!.
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I did read your posts below and see that it is allowed in certain countries (bloody lucky!!!).. and you are a certified instructor in cloud gliding.
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I see that one needs special training to fly in the clouds and various instruments. Can you kindly do a video discussing these topics:
1. Clarify the airspace G category. In Canada we don't have category "G" so I am intrigued by what is allowed and what is not allowed, etc (and why big iron stays away).
2. What kind of training does one need to fly in and through clouds. How many hours should a glider pilot have before getting into cloud flying.
3. An overview of the instruments best suited for cloud flying. I was once thinking of have my cell phone's spirit level screen as an artificial horizon (don't know if that is a bad idea)
4. I got it that the vario T/E probe can freeze up and you can use an inertia vario. Okay. But what happens when you ASI freezes - what do you do then when thermalling inside a cloud. You were talking about switching probes - tell us more.
5. Tell us more about icing on the wings - can you get rid of it (fly lower)? have you ever had your air-brakes jam with icing? How much does it impact you ability to glide?
6. If I was to go to Finland on a holiday and wanted to experience cloud flying, could I go for a sort of training session with you for say an hour or so?
7. Tell us about thermalling inside the cloud, keeping your orientation and keeping the speed low for thermalling. What about turbulance inside the cloud (this is a whole mind blowing experience for me).
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I think me an many other pilots have sort of dipped into a cloud, lost our orientation and... stick forward and get out. I have flown above cloud level but at over 500ft from the cloud and never ventured above cloud level.
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As I said, this looks like an amazing experience. I have just subscribed. Tell us more.
Others are better equipped to answer most of your questions but answering number 3, for safety, the “spirit level” apps on a phone only work when stationary or at a constant velocity. They don’t work at all if you turn or change speed.
1. Sorry wrong term, it is -G airspace, which you can find anywhere in the world, incl. CAN. This does not mean that your country approves cloud flying. AFAIK US does not, unless you equip glider for real IFR (gyros, lights, navigation etc.).
2. EASA SFCL.215
The privileges of an SPL shall include sailplane cloud flying privileges if a pilot has completed at least:
(1) 30 hours as PIC in sailplanes after the issue of the licence;
(2) a training course at an ATO or a DTO, including:
(i) theoretical knowledge instruction;
(ii) at least two hours of dual flight instruction in sailplanes with any engine stopped, controlling the aircraft solely by reference to instruments.
I instruct with turn and bank only (no horizon), it takes 5 hrs of dual instruction to learn it properly. With horizon 2-3 hrs is enough for experienced pilot.
3. EASA SAO.IDE.105
(a) Sailplanes shall be equipped with a means of measuring and displaying all of the following:
(1) time in hours and minutes;
(2) pressure altitude;
(3) indicated airspeed;
(b) In addition to (a), when conducting cloud flying
(1) vertical speed;
(2) attitude or turn and slip;
(3) magnetic heading.
(Phone - bad idea. )
4.-5. I think answers are in other comments. Airbrakes do not jam because they are closed all the time, unless you lose control of the glider, and then icing is smallest of your problems.
6. Yes, but as always with gliding, you might need to wait weeks for a good cloud flying day.
7. This is what the training is for. Thermalling in the cloud should be more or less same as thermalling below the clouds. The turbulence starts at the top of the cloud, a good sign to head off because the lift stops anyways.
@@krasw Thank you very much for your response.
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Just checked Nav Canada airspace. Woops - don't know how I forgot. I fly in Class G airspace all the time (that was a real brain fart on my side).
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I heard a story about a glider pilot that dipped into a cloud and was 'sucked in'. Apparently the person experienced being thrown around like they were in a washing machine before being spat out the side of the cloud. Apparently this cloud has developed into a storm cloud. Is this a myth?
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When I was a student pilot I asked why we don't fly into the cloud the instructor said - not allowed and you will get disorientated when you lose sight of the horizon. I said but we have they floating ball compass that we can use for orientation. He said, "Really? come let's try it". I flew into the cloud (love the sensation). I focused heavily on the compass ball but I could feel g-forces that said something is not right. We came out the side of the cloud in a steep bank (I was predicting straight and level flight). So the instructor said, "So you understand now". Yeah, I understood but I always wanted to have a few more goes at it. I believe we give up so much height gain by restricting ourselves to cloud base. Little did I imagine we also give up so much awesome fun (until I saw your video).
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Your list of instruments appear to be our standard list of instruments except for the 'Attitude or turn and slip" which in my mind is the string tell-tale on your canopy and I guess you could in theory put 2 more tell-tales on either side of your canopy to give you attitude.
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In my mind - I would love to have a holiday where I go out to one or other country (Finland sounds like a great idea), just to experience cloud flying.
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I mean really your video has sold me so well. Thank you again.
@@markplain2555 Turn and bank is gyro instrument that is essential to keep glider under control. You can see it on right side of my instrument panel.
Never mind the tedious cross countries on pretty days, THIS is what gliding is all about for me!
Yes! I do quite a lot of xc and comp flying, but most memorable flights are almost always on beautiful cloud flying days.
Come to Denbigh Gliding North Wales.
We can teach all that and we often reach altitudes of 19,500ft which is the upper limit midweek
Weekends we can sometimes get permission to climb to 24,500ft ✅⚠️👍
Great stuff, but flying at over 3000 meters in shorts is so 😅
amazing!
Ice on front edge of wing. Danger!
I wouldn't get too close to some of the CB's that are near your position. An awful lot of convective cloud around, but then again, maybe you are certified for flying in icing conditions 🙂
Almoat all of cloud flying is done in heavy icing conditions in my country. It is not a big problem, just something that needs to be dealt with.
I take it by that that you don't actually fly too much in cloud because I don't see how you in a glider could get rid of the ice except by descending-fast.@@krasw
Gliders go up fast in TCU and come down pretty fast if needed. Normal climb to FL95 plus descend to above zero altitude takes about 20-30 min.
Very nice video! Is it true from your experience, that icing only occures in visible humidity / percipitation (like clouds or rain)?
In my experience, yes. In wet clouds (towering cu) between 0 and -15 degrees.
@@krasw Thanks alot! It's so cool that you guys are allowed to fly through clouds without an IFR rating 😍
This looks super cool, but what am I supposed to do if you're not talking to ATC (No Clearance, as stated in your previous previous comment) and I'm flying through the same cloud IFR?
This is pretty high up for class G airspace and If I'm flying at those altitudes in IMC I'm not expecting to find a glider inside a cloud. Super dope, looks like a ton of fun, but also probably an accident waiting to happen without talking to air traffic control.
I standby my comment that this is pretty risky, but damn it does look like a ton of fun.
@@Matt-zc1qs That is the reality of any G class airspace. No clearance, no air traffic service, no separation between VFR and IFR traffic. That is why commercial traffic does not fly there. There could be some general aviation IFR plane, and that is the astronomically small risk we (both) have to take. I have never seen one because GA IFR flying is almost non existent in my country. Way too difficult and expensive in EU compared to US I have heard.
@@krasw While technically legal, in the US there is precedent to suggest that flying in IMC without an IFR clearance is considered careless and reckless operation and the PIC could be prosecuted.
Thankfully this isn't a risk I have to take, because I never operate under IFR in class G airspace!
@@Matt-zc1qs There is no cloud flying rules in US, so I'm confident every second of my flying in videos would be illegal there. I do not fly in US, as you can read from video description.
@@Matt-zc1qs in UK they routinely flight IFR in IMC in class G airspace. The statistics say that the collision risk is very low. Also, now, with ADS-B the risk is even lower.
Gliding and flying are two different things.
Couldn't agree more!
Amazing records! But very risky due to the iceing
Glider flies totally safely with ice on the wings, performance penalty is not critical in our flying. In summer weather it melts always well before landing.
I did not know that but It scares me. Thanks again for the nice records @@krasw
@@krasw There aren't any 'boots' to dislodge ice? It looks like the ice would increase drag, but then I assume you would lose glide angle, rather than need to increase AOA like a powered aircraft.
No boots, we just wait until it melts. In early spring cold weather there have been cases of carrying the ice until landing on the ground, usually partly melted.@@jo2lovid
Looks very nice! What device/brand is the digital Attitude Indicator in the lower left of the panel?
AIR Avionics Glide S, it is inertial variometer that has a horizon. Very good instrument.
@@krasw Thats amazing. Back when I was flying gliders in the 90's artificial horizons were too expensive/not feasable for gliders.
Yes, modern variometers have good horizons, they have full suite of rate and acceleration sensors. Problem is that glider minimum equipment lists still insist on turn & bank, which are slowly becoming extinct.@@1CAG
Did you use your Turbo engine to climb into the clouds, or did you thermal inside the clouds? Or are you using mountain wave?
We always climb inside towering cumulus. Turbo is way too weak to climb at higher altitudes. Here is the track of one flights I used footage from: www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=9527507#map=
Have you ever flown inside a lenticular? Is the air smooth? @@krasw
@Paul-vh6ul Not often since I fly flatlands and convective waves are difficult to connect to. The air is definitely smooth in small lentis.
So, no cloud clearance rules in your country? I need to move
Flying in IMC, VMC minima do not apply. Welcome!
@@krasw my apologies for not reading the FAQ in the description :)
As a commercial pilot in the US, I am curious about the icing. Is that not a factor for glider for some reason? If I saw that amount of ice on the leading edge of my Cessna 172 wing, I would get on the ground ASAP.
While you make a valid point, it appears he has the option to fly out of moisture (clouds) at all times. What I wonder about is the wisdom of violating VFR cloud separation mins, and publishing it for anyone to take him to task on it. Regardless, very enjoyable presentation.
Ice degrades performance of glider, but that does make flying dangerous. We are not worried about shooting approaches with possible go around, carrying ice. Handling is normal, stall speed increases maybe 10 km/h. You can see me stalling the plane in extended edition of the video. I live in Finland, this country is full of ice all year round anyway, either on the ground or in the air 😉
@briansilcox5720 If you read the FAQ you learn that everything in the video is legal in my country.
Thanks for the videos@@krasw
is there a a longer video available?
I could patch together 15-20 min video at some point. Anyone interested?
@@krasw I am😍
oh def!@@krasw
@@krasw Yes please, this is the video I have been looking for since I started. I haven't made an investment in gliding because I haven't been able to find anybody who flies "above the clouds in icing conditions". My main goals for gliding are to be able to fly above the clouds in overcast conditions during winter on those gloomy days when I just miss seeing the sun.
I also loved your video about "testing new bugwipers".
Instantly subscribed. What a novel and wonderful channel!
@@HarryPotter-kd3bh Thanks for your kind words
Pilot can possibly lose orientation in the clouds
Yes, without training and instruments.
Don’t you have icing risk?
Icing happens routinely above 2000 m. Plane flies pretty normally with ice, but performance suffers. Ice blocks also static and pitot ports, this prevents further climb until ports have melted free of ice.
Good luck if there is a IFR in the clouds... 🤦♂
Pls read video description for more info
How do you deal with icing?!
I descend to altitude where temperature is above zero, and the ice sheds away in few minutes.
@@krasw Too bad you don't have a magic broomstick like me. I pity the muggles.
This is SO illegal in the US
Ain’t nobody up there with a yardstick
AFAIK Technically legal with IFR equipped glider, but I guess not many such gliders exist in US. Stemme maybe?
If he’s VFR, he’s way too close to those clouds! Someone like me running IFR in a twin engine can come out of those clouds at 200 MPH with no time to react! Is he IFR, or at least running a transponder, in contact with ATC? If not, he can get his license pulled!
Please read the FAQ in video description, it has all the answers you need.
Fly your twin engine brum brum in controlled airspace away from turbulent air and everyone will be good and comfortable.
Respecting cloud separation minimums is pretty cringe anyway
You would do that if you fly VFR, but this is IFR flying.
Does the VFR rule apply for glider?
Yes for VFR flying, no for cloud flying. More info in video description.
Does icing on the wings prevent you from using airbrakes (are they stuck) ?
No, the ice is mostly on the leading edges. Sometimes when exiting cloud near zero temperatures, wings are wet while inside cloud and then freeze immediately outside it. Then there might be some droplets in the aileron gaps, which can momentarily freeze aileron (or elevator). Contols free up immediately with a nudge of stick. I believe it is possible to collect ice to open airbrakes so that you cannot close them, but I have never intentionally tried that.
@@krasw ok thanks !
Nice video, but I would have prefered live talking, or at least acoustic music.
I agree, but you wouldn't believe the hassle with music copyrights and finding creative common licenced tracks.
for what its worth I found the music fitting and pleasant
Minimum cloud clearance requirements, not withstanding.
Not applicable for cloud flying, it is done in IMC.
The only way to ignore cloud clearance requirements set forth in Class E/G airspace is to be on an IFR clearance.@@krasw
Since when is it ok for VFR traffic to get into clouds and fly in IMC? How are aircraft under ifr then protected?
Google ICAO "rules of the Air" and look at table 3-1. When operating in VMC (in what appears in this case to be Class E or G airspace) a pilot is compelled to remain clear of clouds by 1500m horizontally and 300m vertically. This video portrays what is essentially IFR flight without an IFR clearance (unless I'm missing something).
Short version: It is not done in VMC (obviously), It is not IFR flight, it is cloud flight, yes it is allowed by EASA SERA, and no you do not need clearance for it in G-airspace. The transponder is for getting clearance for C/D-airspace (above FL95 in my country).
@sevyalex Since 1930's in my country, if you have cloud flying rating. In G-class airspace you are not under ATC "protection", so big iron stays away.
@krasw This is not what I see in EASA SERA regulations for class G. In fact, I do not know of any place where VFR flight can operate in clouds. If you could point it to me, that would be great. The fact that the airspace is uncontrolled indicates in my book that cloud clearance should be respected as it is even more critical for safe Ifr operations (whether in a big bird or in a C152)
If you violate cloud clearance requirements then you are not operating in VMC. How is that possible without an IFR clearance? I do not operate in Europe. Perhaps you have airspace blocked for strictly glider. I dont see it possible legally in US airspace.@@krasw