This video is the perfect follow up to the last video & in-depth explanation!!!!!!! It explains exactly why I like low relief on all my instruments. Like you said, it's a win, win. In relation to peghead nut relief to the first fret: This is something I've noticed a LOT in my area & is something to especially note for any capo users out there. A lot of people wonder why they tune their guitar open & it's immediately out of tune as soon as they put their capo on. It boils down to one of 3 causes. Either your peghead nut is too high, you're tightening up the capo too tight or you're not putting the capo close enough to the fret. The latter 2 usually go hand in hand & is the reason I don't use the "kyser quick change capo". The spring in that style of capo almost always applies too much force & the string pad is too wide between the frets. If your guitar plays "harder" without a capo & loosens up as soon as you put one on, then.......you have good indicator of a high peghead nut on your guitar. I'd also guarantee in that situation, that if you compared your open tuning to capoed, your tuner will read sharp. I'm pretty certain that Bryan already has a video on this channel covering this topic & even demonstrating several different capos. Please check out Bryan's playlists!!!!!!! I hope this might help somebody out there & I also hope that everybody is having a great start to 2023!!!!!!!
@@Bryankimsey LOL That'll do it, right there!!!!!!! I wish I had bought a McKinney capo back when you could still find them. Those were some of the best capos ever made!!!!!!! Especially the custom ones!!!!!!!
Great Video! This weekend I tried it on my D28 and amazing. I had known that too much neck relief would raise the action and it was always something I checked and set to .004" or .005" on Martin and .008 on Strat (because Fender manual says so) before doing anything else but I never understood its outsized effect on action. 6 years ago my new D28 low E action was .086 at 12th fret, this summer, it was .116. I brought it to a Martin authorized luthier who shaved the saddle, set the relief to .007 and the action at the 12th was .091 which was fine. Seeing your video I reduced the relief to .004 which lowered the action to .074 - a reduction of .017! I like a low action and Its playing great - this is a great tool to help forestall shaving the saddle or the bridge - Thanks Brian!!
Don't shave the bridge!!! When you eventually need a neck reset, you'll need a new bridge too. I don't know why more guys don't take the time to measure stuff and figure out how it works and what's going on, but few do
@@Bryankimsey I'm glad you said not to shave the bridge. Its in the right place, the intonation is fine. In 5 or 6 years if I have to bring it to someone I'll insist on a neck reset instead - I think that's the next step as the saddle is at a minimum break angle now I think. Measurements? For me it all started in 1974. I was 14 and bought a 1966 Suzuki 250cc 2 Stroke T-20 X-6 Hustler street bike completely disassembled for $25. Brought it home in a wheel barrow. Just me and a Clymer manual. Ring gap, spark plug gap, feeler gauges, borrowed torque wrench. On to garages in high school. Calipers, dial indicators, compression gauges - it was all measurements (at least if you were any good). Started playing guitar in 2005. Bought a new Mexican Strat. Looked up Fender's specs online - whoa feeler gauges and a caliper - I had those!! Made a radius card with a compass, cardboard and scissors and brought that high action and neck relief right down to the American spec. But I measured and recorded everything first, pickup heights, everything (really out of fear of getting lost). Later on replaced pickups and tremolo block - did a lot to it but always knew how to get back to the starting point. Like oval track race cars - teams make so many adjustments that sometime they don't know where they are any more. A consultant will come in and first thing set the chassis back to the chassis makers original spec. and start making small changes from a known good reference point. I really enjoy your videos Brian. Even when you go over things I've seen you do before - sometimes it takes me 2, 3 or more times to hear something to really get it to sink in. I have really learned so much about the life cycle of and what to look for in these instruments - Thank You!
Brian this is a very good video. I already new and understood most of these principals but you presented it in such a way that you caused me to rethink some of my methodology. Thanks!
another question: do you get guitars where the neck is set so it does not dip down relative to body, i.e is the neck to body angle is the opposite angle? My Eastman seems to be set the other way. Thanks
Get a yard stick... sorry...a meter stick 🙂 and lay it on the body as I show here (link below). Geometry says you can't have a neck with an angle above the plane of the body. If you do, you need a neck reset pretty bad. ua-cam.com/video/W4nspwz1rlQ/v-deo.html
am a bit confused by your measurements, as I am metric. What are the numbers? Are they 12/1000 or ??? When you give the numbers for clearnce for example what is the number that you give? Is this in 1000ths of inch or something else??
I'm using feeler gauges. If you would get a set, the answer would be very obvious as they're marked in decimal... .002", .004", .016", etc. Same as the dial calipers. You can easily convert to metric but don't lose sight of the CONCEPT.
Bryan, do you agree that increasing or decreasing relief on most acoustic guitars has some impact on the tone/volume/sustain/resonance from the change in neck stiffness or rigidity?
Yes... IF you use an adjustable truss rod rather than shaping the fingerboard to change the relief. It's not the relief per se, but the change in neck tension. I talk about the effect in the previous video: ua-cam.com/video/ImzQPrEgraE/v-deo.html
@@Bryankimsey Excellent.. I did not see the previous video but just now watched it.. I agree totally to all your comments on neck relief vs sound and play ability. I have experimented with this on my Martins and deduced the same on tonal changes vs relief.
Just to be that person, let me ask what's probably a stupid question. When loosening the truss rod you also loosen the string tension....correct? That also detunes the strings....right? So from that adjustment, if you tune the guitar to pitch, how much, if any, does that counteract what you just accomplished? See what I'm getting at? Hope that's not to stupid of a question.
I gotchya. I just tested this, starting with .002" of relief and the low E tuned perfectly to a Petersen strobe. I increased relief to .010" and the strobe just _barely_ moved to the "flat" side. The +/- cent indicator did not move. I then tuned it back to "perfect" using the slightest nudge of the tuner and went back to .006" (which is what I wanted) and the tuner did not budge. So... "no, not anything measurable".
I always use a simple method for neck relief. Just tighten the truss rod untill you start to get fret buzz on the D and G strings when you fret the second fret (play an open A), then loosen the truss rod untill it rings clean with a decent strum, (maybe slightly heavier than you would normally play.) One thing that low neck relief does, it makes a ramp up in the string height from the first fret to the last. More neck relief will give you an even action all the way along the neck, but as he says, you loose clearance on the higher frets, so its a balancing act depending on the guitar. Generally though, the simple method I described will put you right in the ball park of what the guitar wants for relief.
I'm not trying to show a simple way. I'm showing you the science and math behind WHY this works. To breathe, you inhale and exhale. WHY you do this and HOW is a little more complicated and you probably need to understand those to be a good diagnostician.
@@Bryankimsey No, I totally agree, and if you think about it, you just thoroughly explained why my method works. It's the "next fret" method I'm using. I was just offering a way for people to do it, based on your exact theme, without getting stuck on the numbers. As you know, numbers on guitar setup are irrelevant, you set the guitar to what the guitar wants and how the player plays. Thanks, for going to all the trouble of explaining exactly what the relief does in depth. Much appreciated, and all the points you made are things I picked up on a long time ago, chasing the perfect action on mine and customers guitars. All the best
Holy cow, Bryan, you have opened my eyes. This is one of your best videos, thank you.
Thanks!
This video is the perfect follow up to the last video & in-depth explanation!!!!!!! It explains exactly why I like low relief on all my instruments. Like you said, it's a win, win.
In relation to peghead nut relief to the first fret: This is something I've noticed a LOT in my area & is something to especially note for any capo users out there. A lot of people wonder why they tune their guitar open & it's immediately out of tune as soon as they put their capo on. It boils down to one of 3 causes. Either your peghead nut is too high, you're tightening up the capo too tight or you're not putting the capo close enough to the fret. The latter 2 usually go hand in hand & is the reason I don't use the "kyser quick change capo". The spring in that style of capo almost always applies too much force & the string pad is too wide between the frets. If your guitar plays "harder" without a capo & loosens up as soon as you put one on, then.......you have good indicator of a high peghead nut on your guitar. I'd also guarantee in that situation, that if you compared your open tuning to capoed, your tuner will read sharp.
I'm pretty certain that Bryan already has a video on this channel covering this topic & even demonstrating several different capos. Please check out Bryan's playlists!!!!!!! I hope this might help somebody out there & I also hope that everybody is having a great start to 2023!!!!!!!
You don't use Keyser capos?? I do. To clamp stuff to my workbench. :)
@@Bryankimsey LOL That'll do it, right there!!!!!!! I wish I had bought a McKinney capo back when you could still find them. Those were some of the best capos ever made!!!!!!! Especially the custom ones!!!!!!!
Great Video! This weekend I tried it on my D28 and amazing. I had known that too much neck relief would raise the action and it was always something I checked and set to .004" or .005" on Martin and .008 on Strat (because Fender manual says so) before doing anything else but I never understood its outsized effect on action. 6 years ago my new D28 low E action was .086 at 12th fret, this summer, it was .116. I brought it to a Martin authorized luthier who shaved the saddle, set the relief to .007 and the action at the 12th was .091 which was fine. Seeing your video I reduced the relief to .004 which lowered the action to .074 - a reduction of .017! I like a low action and Its playing great - this is a great tool to help forestall shaving the saddle or the bridge - Thanks Brian!!
Don't shave the bridge!!! When you eventually need a neck reset, you'll need a new bridge too.
I don't know why more guys don't take the time to measure stuff and figure out how it works and what's going on, but few do
@@Bryankimsey I'm glad you said not to shave the bridge. Its in the right place, the intonation is fine. In 5 or 6 years if I have to bring it to someone I'll insist on a neck reset instead - I think that's the next step as the saddle is at a minimum break angle now I think.
Measurements? For me it all started in 1974. I was 14 and bought a 1966 Suzuki 250cc 2 Stroke T-20 X-6 Hustler street bike completely disassembled for $25. Brought it home in a wheel barrow. Just me and a Clymer manual. Ring gap, spark plug gap, feeler gauges, borrowed torque wrench. On to garages in high school. Calipers, dial indicators, compression gauges - it was all measurements (at least if you were any good).
Started playing guitar in 2005. Bought a new Mexican Strat. Looked up Fender's specs online - whoa feeler gauges and a caliper - I had those!! Made a radius card with a compass, cardboard and scissors and brought that high action and neck relief right down to the American spec. But I measured and recorded everything first, pickup heights, everything (really out of fear of getting lost). Later on replaced pickups and tremolo block - did a lot to it but always knew how to get back to the starting point. Like oval track race cars - teams make so many adjustments that sometime they don't know where they are any more. A consultant will come in and first thing set the chassis back to the chassis makers original spec. and start making small changes from a known good reference point.
I really enjoy your videos Brian. Even when you go over things I've seen you do before - sometimes it takes me 2, 3 or more times to hear something to really get it to sink in. I have really learned so much about the life cycle of and what to look for in these instruments - Thank You!
Brian this is a very good video. I already new and understood most of these principals but you presented it in such a way that you caused me to rethink some of my methodology. Thanks!
Prof action is lower why is that? We want good playabillity too.
I don't understand your question. Rephrase or use more words. Write in your native language and let's if Google can translate.
another question: do you get guitars where the neck is set so it does not dip down relative to body, i.e is the neck to body angle is the opposite angle? My Eastman seems to be set the other way. Thanks
Get a yard stick... sorry...a meter stick 🙂 and lay it on the body as I show here (link below). Geometry says you can't have a neck with an angle above the plane of the body. If you do, you need a neck reset pretty bad.
ua-cam.com/video/W4nspwz1rlQ/v-deo.html
am a bit confused by your measurements, as I am metric. What are the numbers? Are they 12/1000 or ??? When you give the numbers for clearnce for example what is the number that you give? Is this in 1000ths of inch or something else??
I'm using feeler gauges. If you would get a set, the answer would be very obvious as they're marked in decimal... .002", .004", .016", etc. Same as the dial calipers. You can easily convert to metric but don't lose sight of the CONCEPT.
Bryan, do you agree that increasing or decreasing relief on most acoustic guitars has some impact on the tone/volume/sustain/resonance from the change in neck stiffness or rigidity?
Yes... IF you use an adjustable truss rod rather than shaping the fingerboard to change the relief. It's not the relief per se, but the change in neck tension. I talk about the effect in the previous video:
ua-cam.com/video/ImzQPrEgraE/v-deo.html
@@Bryankimsey Excellent.. I did not see the previous video but just now watched it.. I agree totally to all your comments on neck relief vs sound and play ability. I have experimented with this on my Martins and deduced the same on tonal changes vs relief.
Just to be that person, let me ask what's probably a stupid question. When loosening the truss rod you also loosen the string tension....correct? That also detunes the strings....right? So from that adjustment, if you tune the guitar to pitch, how much, if any, does that counteract what you just accomplished? See what I'm getting at? Hope that's not to stupid of a question.
Strings are at full tension. No need to loosen them.
ua-cam.com/video/BumiJhkLxLg/v-deo.html
@Kimsey Lutherie what I mean is, when you loosen the truss rod, does that not also lesson the string tension?
I gotchya. I just tested this, starting with .002" of relief and the low E tuned perfectly to a Petersen strobe. I increased relief to .010" and the strobe just _barely_ moved to the "flat" side. The +/- cent indicator did not move. I then tuned it back to "perfect" using the slightest nudge of the tuner and went back to .006" (which is what I wanted) and the tuner did not budge. So... "no, not anything measurable".
I always use a simple method for neck relief. Just tighten the truss rod untill you start to get fret buzz on the D and G strings when you fret the second fret (play an open A), then loosen the truss rod untill it rings clean with a decent strum, (maybe slightly heavier than you would normally play.)
One thing that low neck relief does, it makes a ramp up in the string height from the first fret to the last.
More neck relief will give you an even action all the way along the neck, but as he says, you loose clearance on the higher frets, so its a balancing act depending on the guitar.
Generally though, the simple method I described will put you right in the ball park of what the guitar wants for relief.
I'm not trying to show a simple way. I'm showing you the science and math behind WHY this works. To breathe, you inhale and exhale. WHY you do this and HOW is a little more complicated and you probably need to understand those to be a good diagnostician.
@@Bryankimsey
No, I totally agree, and if you think about it, you just thoroughly explained why my method works.
It's the "next fret" method I'm using.
I was just offering a way for people to do it, based on your exact theme, without getting stuck on the numbers.
As you know, numbers on guitar setup are irrelevant, you set the guitar to what the guitar wants and how the player plays.
Thanks, for going to all the trouble of explaining exactly what the relief does in depth.
Much appreciated, and all the points you made are things I picked up on a long time ago, chasing the perfect action on mine and customers guitars.
All the best