This is great stuff and is exactly what I'm working on and is the absolute best relief explanations I've seen.A few months ago I started dorking with my HD-28V (looking for perfection) with all the Music Nomad setup kits and managed to achieve the trifecta of filing my nut slots too low, sanding my saddle too low, and setting way too much neck relief.I've replaced the nut and got that straightened out, have a saddle from Stewmac coming tomorrow that I'll be adjusting, and (thru a lot of trial and error) have the relief to .004 to .006. I had thought I needed more relief from the "conventional wisdom" of .008 or higher and your expert confirmation saved me just in time.Thanks!
Thanks a million. Watching this and a quarter turn saved one from the junk heap. Smooth and a pleasure to play now. Every other “expert” out there is recommending a slight bow. Thanks again.
Bryan, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on dealing with neck relief on Martins that don’t have adjustable truss rods, such as the 1970’s era Martins that you rehab. Do they frequently have relief problems, what are the adjustment options, etc. Thank you for these great videos, and thank you again for making my HD-28 truly special.
I'll keep that one in mind. I basically shape the fingerboard with a sanding block if they need it, some do, some don't. With all non-adjustable rods, you can't fine tune the way you can with an adjustable but as long as you're under .008" you'll be okay.
I had about 30 minutes of bridge pin talk recorded when I was discussing the D-28 I just finished but it didn't fit that already-too-long video. I'll get to pins soon.
I agree with this. It seems to mirror my own conclusion regarding neck relief. However, I often find that while most guitars play better with very little relief they often feel tight or tense. I don't know why that is ...yet.
That's a "feel" thing and you are certainly welcome to increase relief to your feel liking. Just be aware of the pros and cons. I think more relief feels softer because there's more string travel as you fret. Me, I like to feel instant fretting so I don't like "soft" feel.
Hi Bryan, Please let me know if/when you reopen your shop. I’ve got a 76 D28 that needs your magic. Be well and thank you for all you do for us in guitar world.
The shop's "open" but the waiting line is out the door and around the block. I take in 4-6 guitars every 3 months or so. At that rate, plus my extremely unpredictable schedule, there's no way I can predict when I can get to an instrument or when it's going to get done.
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. 35+ years of playing guitar here..., with half or more of that time being professional live gigging and studio work. A straight neck or darn near straight, is huge for me and a 'must do-/ have' on all my personal guitars. Obviously a guitar is going to play better and easier with a straight neck, but I've found that a guitar ( both electric and acoustic) sounds its best and resonates and rings better with a straighter neck set up...
I'm curious ... does this apply to mandolins as well? I've learned some luthiers set em all dead straight while others like a bit of relief. Apologies if you talked about it later in the video, I haven't watched the whole thing yet.
I think ur a very smart and the best thing is that u don’t make it what it isn’t A lot of so called experts complicate so much that makes my head spin lol I’m not even a good guitar player (started playing at 50) but u don’t have to be This is all common sense My saddle is so low that I might get another but just listening to this video The guitar (D-18 MD) plays amazing and no fret buzz, tuned and intoned I can imagine if I actually knew what I was doing and measure everything 😊 Thank you for all the help on all your videos
The best you'll get is "flavor" and I don't think you _gain_ anything. You _attenuate_ certain tones- just like the tone pot on a Telecaster- but true gain is going to come from bracing changes. However... ebony tends to attenuate highs, yes. Other pins.. fossil walrus ivory, for instance... weigh enough to increase sustain and may give the illusion of more bass.
@@Bryankimsey Thanks for the response. That makes sense... I trust my skill to shave some of the back braces but this guitar is too new and valuable to make such a modification... Maybe in a few years. Maybe when it opens up it'll gain a bit of depth... time will tell. On a different note, I slotted a bridge yesterday and the G string now is really pushing the D harmonic. Driving me a bit nuts. Hopefully some solid ebony pins will do something (for now, I rotated 180 the slotted plastic ones). Any tricks or advice on that? Man, I have so many questions I'd like to ask but I know you're a busy man, so I try to only ask every once in a while.
You can always e-mail me and I'll answer there (eventually... but I don't mind Q's). my name at the Google mail thingy. Try different pins. I'd get a set of non-slotted Antique Acoustics or Galalith, bone, ebony, and- if you're feeling flush- fossil walrus ivory and try them all. Some people (Larry Cragg, for instance) mix and match with good results. StewMac for the first three, Bob Colosi for the FWI. Keep 'em all for your next guitar or different strings.
Hey Bryan, I just received the stew Mac gripper wrench tool today and it didn't work on my stripped truss rod nut. It's on a gpcpa5k made in Mexico martin but the neck is lightning fast and I hate to call it lost cause but I don't know what to do now. Any suggestions? It's a bolt in neck but I was really hoping to not have to go that route. Martin puts their damn truss rod nuts so deeps in the neck that it's hard to access. Sorry I forgot to mention my problem is I have probably 40 thousandths of relief that I can't get out and it's driving me crazy.
Does that guitar have a one way or a two way truss rod? If it's a two way, you're not going to get the nut off. If it's a one way, I'd get a hardware store 5 mm Allen, smear a dab of epoxy on the end and glue it on. Let it dry and spin it off. Make sure you can spin the wrench in a full circle before you epoxy it in!! Personally, I'd just pull the neck. It'd take me 15 minutes and then the truss rod would be staring me in the face.
Thank you so much for responding. I will try taking the neck off. I've never done that b4 but I've been playing for 25yrs so I guess it's about that time. Plus it's not a huge loss if I destroy it lol. Looking forward to more videos. New subscriber. Lastly I've been that way about right tighty lefty loosey my whole life. People would always say that and I'd ask them from the front or from the back and people thought I was nuts lol
I have a whole playlist on "neck resets". On yours, you'll want to loosen the f/board extension, remove the screw, and then you'll still have to steam it to loosen the glue on the "bolt-on" neck. I usually just put the steam needle in the bolt hole. But, still, if that's a two way rod... the nut is fixed and you'll have to do something. How do you KNOW the nut is stripped? Have you watched this? ua-cam.com/video/aJAixmvsrEk/v-deo.html
Agree for the most part. Too much relief can give you intonation problems and upper fret buzz. A truss rod is good to be able to compensate for back bow caused by humidity or re-fretting, but flat should be the starting point (and flat is ALWAYS the starting point when doing any fret leveling). To me it would make a lot more sense to give guitars neck tilt adjustments. Its been done (early 70's Fenders for electrics, and RIversong acoustics) but it certainly has not caught on. Maybe its a tough engineering problem, but it would sure be useful.
The only rod that'll correct a backbow is a 2-way truss rod and I hate those things. Agree that over-humidification can be an issue with backbow sometimes... I have a customer dealing with it right now.
Great video & I'm VERY glad that you covered this topic in such detail!!!!!!! There's a TON of misinformation out there about neck relief & low action. I'm with you 100% & I'm glad to see someone with your extensive knowledge & experience, debunking these myths!!!!!!! I do not like much neck relief in a guitar. Only enough to allow for humidity. In my opinion, too much relief makes the strings feel too loose on my right hand which causes me to "dig" the strings. The harder I play, the less accuracy I have for taking lead breaks. With excessive relief, I also find myself adjusting my right hand position more, looking for the tones I want to hear. A good guitar & a well setup guitar will put out plenty of sound, having consistent tone, without having to play it harder. Naturally, when you apply a capo, the tone will change slightly & more the further you position it toward the body. There's nothing much you can do about that. I like my string height to be as low as possible & as consistent as possible all the way to the 14th fret. With too much relief & frets that are not leveled properly, you've got a perfect recipe for a buzz fest!!!!!!! You've also got an instrument that doesn't play as comfortable or as consistently as it should, up & down the neck. I don't know exactly what that "correct" relief number is, but I know I can almost immediately feel it when a guitar has too much. I personally, start noticing it around the 5th - 7th fret position.
Excellent points. That tone shift with the capo is a good tool as we both know that capo A sounds different than open A. Non bluegrass people who call the capo a crutch don't understand that.
As little as possible. The only reason you need it at all is to allow for humidity changes. So... let's say .004" +/- .002" at the 6th fret (or wherever relief is greatest on that neck). See also: ua-cam.com/video/LNEtTgHRsGA/v-deo.html
I found your other video, I always aim for .006", never thought to go below. I think I would need to shim the saddle. At 0.006" I have .080" at the 12th fret.
Well, if you follow the logic and the measurements in the longer video, you can see that action created by relief does not result in increased fret clearance. That was kind of the whole point. Therefore, set the relief first and then set the saddle. So, yeah... you might have to shim or make a new saddle. OTOH, .006" isn't too bad. You just might be surprised how much better it'll play, esp in the middle of the neck, with less. If you have an adjustable truss rod, it's not going to cost you anything to play with the rod and see what happens if you drop the relief w/out messing with the saddle. .080' is pretty low, though. I run my electrics at .085" low E to .076 high e.
Relief is nonsense when you really think about it. Each fretted note forms a straight ramp that needs to clear the next fret, any relief just makes this impossible. On electrics, I dont understand why bridges are not closer to the neck, which allows lighter gauges and lower action. The maxed out saddle springs rattle at that point and its annoying.
Soooo ... Fender is incorrect about how to set up guitars ... and Gibson too. Oh, and everyone else. I think your mistake is that you don't understand how strings vibrate. People are entitled to their opinions, and to express them of course. But I thought I'd put the other (majority) viewpoint for the benefit of the viewers.
Fender and Gibson are not in the guitar setup business. Review Dan Erlewine's books. He comes to the same conclusions as I did and I've talked to him about neck relief. Dave Harvey, head of the mandolin department at Gibson , showed me just how flat mandolin necks can really be. Charles Fox asked me to submit my neck data to the Journal of American Luthiers... I told him he was welcome to use my data for his own paper. There are _plenty_ of people in the camp I'm in. Furthermore I think I DO understand how strings vibrate: ua-cam.com/video/fjZm1BEPYQg/v-deo.html You can feel free to disagree but let's see your data.
I am relieved.
🤣
This is great stuff and is exactly what I'm working on and is the absolute best relief explanations I've seen.A few months ago I started dorking with my HD-28V (looking for perfection) with all the Music Nomad setup kits and managed to achieve the trifecta of filing my nut slots too low, sanding my saddle too low, and setting way too much neck relief.I've replaced the nut and got that straightened out, have a saddle from Stewmac coming tomorrow that I'll be adjusting, and (thru a lot of trial and error) have the relief to .004 to .006. I had thought I needed more relief from the "conventional wisdom" of .008 or higher and your expert confirmation saved me just in time.Thanks!
Thanks a million. Watching this and a quarter turn saved one from the junk heap. Smooth and a pleasure to play now. Every other “expert” out there is recommending a slight bow. Thanks again.
Brilliant stuff, this will change my life at least in a small way. Thanks for this, super interesting!
To some topics like this may seem dry, but I’ll watch and enjoy as many as you want to post. Learning lots of good info.
Thanks!!!
No one is being forced to watch. They can just skip on. :)
Hey, Bryan, good to see you on here, bud. I hope life is treating you well!
Rolly Brown has entered the room!! Good to see you.
Bryan, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on dealing with neck relief on Martins that don’t have adjustable truss rods, such as the 1970’s era Martins that you rehab. Do they frequently have relief problems, what are the adjustment options, etc. Thank you for these great videos, and thank you again for making my HD-28 truly special.
I'll keep that one in mind. I basically shape the fingerboard with a sanding block if they need it, some do, some don't. With all non-adjustable rods, you can't fine tune the way you can with an adjustable but as long as you're under .008" you'll be okay.
@@Bryankimsey Thank you!
Oh MY LORD ... Thanks a TON ... first time i understood it clearly thanks
Awesome video. Very interesting perspective.
Thank you Bryan 🙏 great stuff, could you share some thoughts on bridge pins material?
I had about 30 minutes of bridge pin talk recorded when I was discussing the D-28 I just finished but it didn't fit that already-too-long video. I'll get to pins soon.
♥
Fascinating video! I’ll be changing my approach.
I agree with this. It seems to mirror my own conclusion regarding neck relief. However, I often find that while most guitars play better with very little relief they often feel tight or tense. I don't know why that is ...yet.
That's a "feel" thing and you are certainly welcome to increase relief to your feel liking. Just be aware of the pros and cons.
I think more relief feels softer because there's more string travel as you fret. Me, I like to feel instant fretting so I don't like "soft" feel.
Hi Bryan,
Please let me know if/when you reopen your shop. I’ve got a 76 D28 that needs your magic. Be well and thank you for all you do for us in guitar world.
Beautiful pickguard!
The shop's "open" but the waiting line is out the door and around the block. I take in 4-6 guitars every 3 months or so. At that rate, plus my extremely unpredictable schedule, there's no way I can predict when I can get to an instrument or when it's going to get done.
@@Bryankimsey Thanks Bryan. Congratulations. Don’t wear yourself out brother!
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. 35+ years of playing guitar here..., with half or more of that time being professional live gigging and studio work. A straight neck or darn near straight, is huge for me and a 'must do-/ have' on all my personal guitars. Obviously a guitar is going to play better and easier with a straight neck, but I've found that a guitar ( both electric and acoustic) sounds its best and resonates and rings better with a straighter neck set up...
Thanks for the comments!
I'm curious ... does this apply to mandolins as well? I've learned some luthiers set em all dead straight while others like a bit of relief. Apologies if you talked about it later in the video, I haven't watched the whole thing yet.
If you finished the video you got your answer. :)
I think ur a very smart and the best thing is that u don’t make it what it isn’t
A lot of so called experts complicate so much that makes my head spin lol
I’m not even a good guitar player (started playing at 50) but u don’t have to be
This is all common sense
My saddle is so low that I might get another but just listening to this video
The guitar (D-18 MD) plays amazing and no fret buzz, tuned and intoned
I can imagine if I actually knew what I was doing and measure everything 😊
Thank you for all the help on all your videos
Hey Bryan... Awesome video as always. Thank you. How do you get more bass from bridge pins? ebony as opposed to bone?
The best you'll get is "flavor" and I don't think you _gain_ anything. You _attenuate_ certain tones- just like the tone pot on a Telecaster- but true gain is going to come from bracing changes. However... ebony tends to attenuate highs, yes. Other pins.. fossil walrus ivory, for instance... weigh enough to increase sustain and may give the illusion of more bass.
@@Bryankimsey Thanks for the response. That makes sense... I trust my skill to shave some of the back braces but this guitar is too new and valuable to make such a modification... Maybe in a few years. Maybe when it opens up it'll gain a bit of depth... time will tell. On a different note, I slotted a bridge yesterday and the G string now is really pushing the D harmonic. Driving me a bit nuts. Hopefully some solid ebony pins will do something (for now, I rotated 180 the slotted plastic ones). Any tricks or advice on that? Man, I have so many questions I'd like to ask but I know you're a busy man, so I try to only ask every once in a while.
You can always e-mail me and I'll answer there (eventually... but I don't mind Q's). my name at the Google mail thingy.
Try different pins. I'd get a set of non-slotted Antique Acoustics or Galalith, bone, ebony, and- if you're feeling flush- fossil walrus ivory and try them all. Some people (Larry Cragg, for instance) mix and match with good results. StewMac for the first three, Bob Colosi for the FWI. Keep 'em all for your next guitar or different strings.
Hey Bryan, I just received the stew Mac gripper wrench tool today and it didn't work on my stripped truss rod nut. It's on a gpcpa5k made in Mexico martin but the neck is lightning fast and I hate to call it lost cause but I don't know what to do now. Any suggestions? It's a bolt in neck but I was really hoping to not have to go that route. Martin puts their damn truss rod nuts so deeps in the neck that it's hard to access. Sorry I forgot to mention my problem is I have probably 40 thousandths of relief that I can't get out and it's driving me crazy.
Does that guitar have a one way or a two way truss rod? If it's a two way, you're not going to get the nut off.
If it's a one way, I'd get a hardware store 5 mm Allen, smear a dab of epoxy on the end and glue it on. Let it dry and spin it off. Make sure you can spin the wrench in a full circle before you epoxy it in!!
Personally, I'd just pull the neck. It'd take me 15 minutes and then the truss rod would be staring me in the face.
Thank you so much for responding. I will try taking the neck off. I've never done that b4 but I've been playing for 25yrs so I guess it's about that time. Plus it's not a huge loss if I destroy it lol. Looking forward to more videos. New subscriber. Lastly I've been that way about right tighty lefty loosey my whole life. People would always say that and I'd ask them from the front or from the back and people thought I was nuts lol
I have a whole playlist on "neck resets". On yours, you'll want to loosen the f/board extension, remove the screw, and then you'll still have to steam it to loosen the glue on the "bolt-on" neck. I usually just put the steam needle in the bolt hole.
But, still, if that's a two way rod... the nut is fixed and you'll have to do something.
How do you KNOW the nut is stripped? Have you watched this?
ua-cam.com/video/aJAixmvsrEk/v-deo.html
Agree for the most part. Too much relief can give you intonation problems and upper fret buzz. A truss rod is good to be able to compensate for back bow caused by humidity or re-fretting, but flat should be the starting point (and flat is ALWAYS the starting point when doing any fret leveling). To me it would make a lot more sense to give guitars neck tilt adjustments. Its been done (early 70's Fenders for electrics, and RIversong acoustics) but it certainly has not caught on. Maybe its a tough engineering problem, but it would sure be useful.
The only rod that'll correct a backbow is a 2-way truss rod and I hate those things. Agree that over-humidification can be an issue with backbow sometimes... I have a customer dealing with it right now.
Great video & I'm VERY glad that you covered this topic in such detail!!!!!!! There's a TON of misinformation out there about neck relief & low action. I'm with you 100% & I'm glad to see someone with your extensive knowledge & experience, debunking these myths!!!!!!!
I do not like much neck relief in a guitar. Only enough to allow for humidity. In my opinion, too much relief makes the strings feel too loose on my right hand which causes me to "dig" the strings. The harder I play, the less accuracy I have for taking lead breaks. With excessive relief, I also find myself adjusting my right hand position more, looking for the tones I want to hear. A good guitar & a well setup guitar will put out plenty of sound, having consistent tone, without having to play it harder. Naturally, when you apply a capo, the tone will change slightly & more the further you position it toward the body. There's nothing much you can do about that.
I like my string height to be as low as possible & as consistent as possible all the way to the 14th fret. With too much relief & frets that are not leveled properly, you've got a perfect recipe for a buzz fest!!!!!!! You've also got an instrument that doesn't play as comfortable or as consistently as it should, up & down the neck. I don't know exactly what that "correct" relief number is, but I know I can almost immediately feel it when a guitar has too much. I personally, start noticing it around the 5th - 7th fret position.
Excellent points. That tone shift with the capo is a good tool as we both know that capo A sounds different than open A. Non bluegrass people who call the capo a crutch don't understand that.
So how much is a small amount of relief?
As little as possible. The only reason you need it at all is to allow for humidity changes. So... let's say .004" +/- .002" at the 6th fret (or wherever relief is greatest on that neck).
See also:
ua-cam.com/video/LNEtTgHRsGA/v-deo.html
I found your other video, I always aim for .006", never thought to go below. I think I would need to shim the saddle. At 0.006" I have .080" at the 12th fret.
Well, if you follow the logic and the measurements in the longer video, you can see that action created by relief does not result in increased fret clearance. That was kind of the whole point. Therefore, set the relief first and then set the saddle. So, yeah... you might have to shim or make a new saddle. OTOH, .006" isn't too bad. You just might be surprised how much better it'll play, esp in the middle of the neck, with less. If you have an adjustable truss rod, it's not going to cost you anything to play with the rod and see what happens if you drop the relief w/out messing with the saddle.
.080' is pretty low, though. I run my electrics at .085" low E to .076 high e.
Relief is nonsense when you really think about it. Each fretted note forms a straight ramp that needs to clear the next fret, any relief just makes this impossible.
On electrics, I dont understand why bridges are not closer to the neck, which allows lighter gauges and lower action. The maxed out saddle springs rattle at that point and its annoying.
Bingo!!!
All very true. Also like you said, a straighter neck sounds better because it has a better transfer of energy.
Soooo ... Fender is incorrect about how to set up guitars ... and Gibson too. Oh, and everyone else. I think your mistake is that you don't understand how strings vibrate. People are entitled to their opinions, and to express them of course. But I thought I'd put the other (majority) viewpoint for the benefit of the viewers.
Fender and Gibson are not in the guitar setup business. Review Dan Erlewine's books. He comes to the same conclusions as I did and I've talked to him about neck relief. Dave Harvey, head of the mandolin department at Gibson , showed me just how flat mandolin necks can really be. Charles Fox asked me to submit my neck data to the Journal of American Luthiers... I told him he was welcome to use my data for his own paper. There are _plenty_ of people in the camp I'm in.
Furthermore I think I DO understand how strings vibrate:
ua-cam.com/video/fjZm1BEPYQg/v-deo.html
You can feel free to disagree but let's see your data.