Brent Spiner has a twin brother, which is in part why he was cast as Data since they knew this storyline would be developed. His name is Trent Spiner and he was born 7 minutes before Brent
@@Elly3981I guarantee,as playing Data is concerned, that playing Lore-someone so phylisophically &morally different, was something Brent Spinner was loving every opportunity he had to show the different range, for him as an actor 💯💯
I might be missing your point, but Data didn't die in this episode. He died in the last ST:NG movie, Star Trek Nemesis. He sacrificed himself to save Picard and the crew. Data did disable his brother Lore though. Perhaps you meant him?
Hugh saves Data and the Drones end up in a fight with Lores group fighting against Hughs, who are against the experiments Lore was doing on them, Lore runs off Data goes after him and basically Data shoots him and later dismantles Lore locking him away in his quarters
How many times can data turn on the federation and be forgiven because it was a technical error. He should have been dismantled back in season 4. I say this but Data is my favourite next gen character.
Not necessarily. 'For the greater good' just tends a popular excuse for people who fail at ethical arithmetic, usually because they willfully ignore troublesome things that would complicate their thought process. Or in other words, they're lazy and make dumb decisions. In practice, 'greater good' is a common-place, everyday thing. Parents force their kids to do unpleasant things, and even physically and emotionally assault them so that they learn the things necessary to lead better lives. Police severely restrict the freedom of people who might be a danger to other people and property. Safety-minded managers, designers and etc also severely restrict the freedom of people to keep them from injuring themselves by accident or ignorance, with physical barriers, psychological manipulation or threats to refuse service, ban them from their property or even slap them with fines. Governments permit harmful drugs like alcohol, cigarettes and weed because they're far less harmful to society as a whole if they're legalized and carefully managed. And in the medical industry it's huge. Medicine is often just a beneficial exchange of good and bad effects. Chemotherapy, for example, does horrible things to a person's body. But it can save a patients life. It's a matter of cost vs benefit. Shooting someone up with radiation would be atrocious for just getting rid of a simple infected cut or an alternative to shaving your beard every other day. And then there's political problems where all choices are bad and all you can do is pick the least bad one. Like do you put all your money into saving 5 people would otherwise die soon, or invest in preventative treatments that keeps 100 people other from being at risk of death? As for things like genocide to 'clean up' humanity? Well that's a stupid bit of ethical arithmetic any way you look at it. It's only with exceedingly great bias, mental dysfunction and great mental laziness that anyone would ever think it's a good idea.
@@FiltyIncognito People use the greater good as an excuse to ignore choice. Data made his choice and was turned on for it. The whole scene is one big metaphor. When people choose differently then you do, view things differently then you do, it's "evil", right? Your twisted sense of "good" and "righteousness" is somoene else's living nightmare. There's always a trade off somewhere. People just don't often see it. That's all. The pursuit of good is even why genocides happen. Tests even show it will happen again if people operate under orders in the name of "progress" (and this is by American's, to be clear). That is "the greater good". If we're talking ignorance then all "good" is, is that ignorance. There could be any number of reasons for it. You want to know why so many WW2 executions happened? Lack of food. Yea, that's it. Lack of food and water. Lack of supplies. Oh sure, there's fear tactics and all that, but when it comes right down to it there's more mouths then there is food. Not an issue in the Star Trek univrse, but it is one in real life. For context inflation caused a food shortage already and it's not even in war time (at least no war that the west is directly involved in). This isn't "Mental dysfunction". Or "Laziness". Those are closed minded excuses. People in power will do anything to keep that power. The average person is stupid enough to believe the lies and excuses they're spoonfed. Odds are, you are too. What you really fear is your own stupidity. Being played for a fool. Do you think the paladin clearing out a kobold lair in D&D is good? Or are they a murderer not even thinking about questioning orders? Data was tricked and fooled into that "good" mentality. Just like so many real people are when they're abused and taken advantage of. What this vid shows is Picard getting Data to think about what he's been told is "good". There is no greater good. That's a lie. Things aren't black and white. They never have been, they never will be. Examine action, reaction, result. If you don't believe in what you're doing, if you have regret or shame or feel bad for whatever reason, hestitate or stall for whatever reason, then that's the point to think about it. Data was confused when he said he's confused. Which means he's confused enough to know something isn't adding up. If he already knew what he was doing was right then he wouldn't be confused. At that point in time Data can't say with certainty what he's doing is wrong either. It's only when Lore tells Data to kill Picard that Data (and only Data. No one else) comes to the conclusion that killing Picard would be "wrong" for him to do. Though of course the show doesn't seem to give an explanation for this. There are also shows where Data comes close to committing murder, so it's probably better to not make snap judgements on either account and instead consider that Data is just as subject to inner conflict as anyone else is. It's likely left open to interpretation/ambiguity by design. People react differently in the same situations and that's part of the charm. Lore wants Data to prove himself by killing Picard. Data knows that would be wrong, yet doesn't elaborate about why. Making it about "right and wrong" is a pointless debate. Instead let's go with the logic of "What does it prove?" If Data did kill Picard then what does it mean? Borg are pretty big on unity, so it's at this point Lore made his first mistake. When Data doesn't kill Picard, Lore then proceeds to try and kill Data. Which is another sign of lack of unity and cohesion. Borg are pretty big on that. As intimidating as Borg may be, when it comes right down to it they're afraid of ending up alone and divided. Instead of seeing unity and assimilation, all Lore is displaying here is discarding. The Borg brainwashing tactics (the repeated voices about resistance being fultile in their heads) also don't apply here. These borg can think for themselves a bit more then the others. This ultimately leads to rebellion. Lore made a speech about being in the same boat, which doesn't add up logically, and the delusion/denial which resulted in the hypocrisy leads to infighting. Lore actually believes the "greater good" and is blinded to his own denial. Thing is it's very easy for people to lie to themselves. Blaming others without considering they're believing their own delusions. What if you're the stupid one? It seems strange to project ones own insecurities like that. Why make black and white snap judgements? What if most people are closed minded statistically? What if good intentions creates killers from ignorance when people don't understand? Things are never as simple as people want them to be. That's why Picard got Data to think.
@@taramaforhaikido7272 I think you might be preaching to the wrong crowd lol. Perhaps I've undersold the idea 'ethical arithmetic', it deserving a name more like 'ethical maths' but you're certainly underestimating the implications. Consider the difference between 1-1=0 and the logarithms composing our most advanced 'AI'. If you're considering the ethics of the simple trade of items of equal value, 1-1=0 is perfectly adequate. But if you're tackling issues like the distribution of wealth for a healthy and progressing society, it's horribly insufficient. And that's not even considering the knowledge required to make a model even usable in the face of the problem at hand. Ethical issues CAN be researched, described, analyzed and solved for to reach greater degrees of ethical 'goodness'. And as such, that means that WORK is increasingly needed to tackle ethical issues of greater complexity and impact. Work that people refuse to do, directly and indirectly. So yes, it is an issue of laziness. Though it's also a mix of impatience, selfishness, lack of natured and nurtured sense of morals, and other such related things, I just say laziness because ultimately it's a choice of doing more work and choosing not to. And there's a whole lot more that goes into the necessities of reaching a 'best reasonable solution' including education, habit establishment, life experiences, external support systems of varying kinds, etc etc. I don't specifically mention the perspective of others because, to me at least, that's an inherently assumed part of ethics. I mean, that's almost all of what ethics is. Ethics without the considering of others is... one person living by themselves never to affect or be affected by anyone else...or choosing not ignore them, which is an absence of ethics. Also, another important, and very relevant, part is 'bias'. Like the bias of oversimplification which leads people to think simplify issues to the point where "For The Greater Good" becomes the hammer with which to strike anything simplified to a proverbially nail. And it comes around, again, to laziness because a simple education in philosophy would prevent a lot of people from falling for such common bias. And lack of education is compounding problem. You can't do what you don't know (unless by accident) so it becomes a case of blind masses leading the masses blind, with a minority of knowledge disseminators struggling against the tide of wilful ignorance. Of course, that being the case could also just mean that the blind don't HAVE a choice with which they could be lazy, but in reality that's not the case since evidence of smarter/more knowledgeful = 'better decision making' suffuses our reality. It could ALSO be the case that the most powerful among us deliberately attempt to keep the greater masses less educated. That has some substance to it, but with the advent of the internet and information accessibility, a person simply has to chose to learn more and put in the work. But then the question becomes: "Why don't people choose to make the right choice? Why are they lazy in this regard?" Well...that delves into rabbit hole of human nature, free will and other such abysses....which I most certainly will not tackle here lol.
_"Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make"_
-99.9% of politicians everywhere throughout time.
"I will sacrifice more than anyone is prepared to give! And to that end, I shall kill...SOMEONE ELSE!"
His soul.
By be(com)ing the worst of politician.
It's like he's evil or something
I just find it incredible that they found someone who looked exactly like Brent Spiner to play the part of Lore.
Brent Spiner has a twin brother, which is in part why he was cast as Data since they knew this storyline would be developed. His name is Trent Spiner and he was born 7 minutes before Brent
@@Cyril29aI thought the twins name was Srent Bpiner?
They wouldn't be brothers if they didn''t have the same last name. D'uh! @@mevestiller
a borg empire with Lore in command is more terrifying than the actual borg to be honest.
Brent Spiner would have made a terrific Loki in the MCU had it existed back then, I feel, portraying him as the Lore character.
Lore: "As proof, I want you to kill Picard."
Data: Updating decision. 23 seconds remaining. 18 seconds remaining. 4 seconds remaining. 59 seconds remaining. Click here to change mind.
Brent Spiner is great as Lore. It's kind of a shame we didn't see more of him.
Oh yeah. I love how Brent can play the mellow Data and nasty Lore beautifully. And how he can pull off such an evil, yet sexy smile!
@@Elly3981I guarantee,as playing Data is concerned, that playing Lore-someone so phylisophically &morally different, was something Brent Spinner was loving every opportunity he had to show the different range, for him as an actor 💯💯
Brent LOVED playing Lore and it was a treat whenever he played him.
Lore: “I want you to kill Picard”.
Picard: Immediately squares up with Data.
They settled things with a break dancing dance-off. It was epic!!
And then Data and Picard were killed and the series came to an abrupt end.
I saw this episode when it came out. I was 6. It still sticks with me. Star Trek used to be 💯
1:04 I like Lore's bodysuit.
Someone's into leather XD jk
@@shadowthoughts7959 All I said was I like his bodysuit.
Don’t we all
@@lykos832f5 It's an awesome costume.
@@shadowthoughts7959 I'm wearing a leather coat. I've never worn leather before.
2:12 was hoping Hugh to the rescue!
Ah yes, the sacrifice of destroying someone he has tried to destroy many times just for the fun of it. Such a great sacrifice.
Lore would make a great corporate executive.
This was a season end/season start two part episode:
Descent Part 1 (S6 E26)
Descent Part 2 (S7 E1)
And that's how Data died. What an awesome show 👏
I might be missing your point, but Data didn't die in this episode. He died in the last ST:NG movie, Star Trek Nemesis. He sacrificed himself to save Picard and the crew.
Data did disable his brother Lore though. Perhaps you meant him?
@@BalokLives he was joking
@@GummyKermit Oh! Missed that I guess.
Why is lore so wiiiiiiide?
He had Dr. Soong's secret android steroids chip implanted in him.
@Lore Soong Were you sad when you were brought back online, only to hear Data was lost during the Nemesis incident???? :(
@Lore Soong That's great!!!!! :D
@Lore Soong That’s something Lore would say with sarcasm 😂
He's not wide. He is COMPACT
Mr. Data is more trouble than he's worth, how many times has he taken over the ship?
OR…how many times has he saved the entire ship and crew and the Federation?
@@nathanholt967 I guess that could make up for it.
How can you cut the video at such a point .... I want to see what happens next!!!!!!!!!!
"Let the past die, kill it if you have to."
- Kylo Ren
Took the idea from this scene.
Data? I see Mark Zuckerberg everywhere..
Honestly, Lore's manipulation skills in this two parter was top notch.
02:11 radiator man.
ah, the evil twin plot
Is that… Third of Five 2:12 ?
Gangsta
Can somone tell me from which episode or film this is? I'm curious to see the whole story of this.
Descent Part 1 (S6 E26) and Descent Part 2 (S7 E1)
I don’t remember; what happened next?
Hugh saves Data and the Drones end up in a fight with Lores group fighting against Hughs, who are against the experiments Lore was doing on them, Lore runs off Data goes after him and basically Data shoots him and later dismantles Lore locking him away in his quarters
@@plonkersbro Riker and Worf joined
Yep, I got it brother like that.
Did they give Brent Spiner a different nose for Lore?
What a cliff hanger!
how can you cut the video then? i dont want more recommendations to your channel
0:00 Troi looked so hot and caring, there. :P It shows what a great actress Marina Sirtis is, since Marina doesn't have a caring bone in her body.
Interesting. You might be the single stupidest entity to ever live. More investigation is required.
@@Dorelaxen Are we mad that our books got shoved out of our hands a little bit harder than usual today???? :(
used to poo my pants before missing a second of star trek on TV. i would literally just shit myself rather than go to the toilet.
That's super weird. Like... borderline psychotic haha
Sounds like you didn't get enough beatings as a kid
@@Adam-vj7dn Hahah for sure.
They didn't have VCRs when this was running? You could've taped it and saved the pants.
Anilize how beackon tell you drift on course
How many times can data turn on the federation and be forgiven because it was a technical error. He should have been dismantled back in season 4. I say this but Data is my favourite next gen character.
Can’t wait for new trek to ruin Lore
wtf is lore wearing?
No
Because all so-called acts for so-called greater good, are wrong.
Remember, killing Nazi's to stop the Nazi's from invading everyone is wrong, because, how could killing someone be for the greater good?
Not necessarily. 'For the greater good' just tends a popular excuse for people who fail at ethical arithmetic, usually because they willfully ignore troublesome things that would complicate their thought process. Or in other words, they're lazy and make dumb decisions.
In practice, 'greater good' is a common-place, everyday thing. Parents force their kids to do unpleasant things, and even physically and emotionally assault them so that they learn the things necessary to lead better lives. Police severely restrict the freedom of people who might be a danger to other people and property. Safety-minded managers, designers and etc also severely restrict the freedom of people to keep them from injuring themselves by accident or ignorance, with physical barriers, psychological manipulation or threats to refuse service, ban them from their property or even slap them with fines. Governments permit harmful drugs like alcohol, cigarettes and weed because they're far less harmful to society as a whole if they're legalized and carefully managed.
And in the medical industry it's huge. Medicine is often just a beneficial exchange of good and bad effects. Chemotherapy, for example, does horrible things to a person's body. But it can save a patients life.
It's a matter of cost vs benefit.
Shooting someone up with radiation would be atrocious for just getting rid of a simple infected cut or an alternative to shaving your beard every other day.
And then there's political problems where all choices are bad and all you can do is pick the least bad one. Like do you put all your money into saving 5 people would otherwise die soon, or invest in preventative treatments that keeps 100 people other from being at risk of death?
As for things like genocide to 'clean up' humanity? Well that's a stupid bit of ethical arithmetic any way you look at it. It's only with exceedingly great bias, mental dysfunction and great mental laziness that anyone would ever think it's a good idea.
@@FiltyIncognito People use the greater good as an excuse to ignore choice. Data made his choice and was turned on for it. The whole scene is one big metaphor. When people choose differently then you do, view things differently then you do, it's "evil", right? Your twisted sense of "good" and "righteousness" is somoene else's living nightmare. There's always a trade off somewhere. People just don't often see it. That's all.
The pursuit of good is even why genocides happen. Tests even show it will happen again if people operate under orders in the name of "progress" (and this is by American's, to be clear). That is "the greater good". If we're talking ignorance then all "good" is, is that ignorance. There could be any number of reasons for it. You want to know why so many WW2 executions happened? Lack of food. Yea, that's it. Lack of food and water. Lack of supplies. Oh sure, there's fear tactics and all that, but when it comes right down to it there's more mouths then there is food. Not an issue in the Star Trek univrse, but it is one in real life. For context inflation caused a food shortage already and it's not even in war time (at least no war that the west is directly involved in).
This isn't "Mental dysfunction". Or "Laziness". Those are closed minded excuses. People in power will do anything to keep that power. The average person is stupid enough to believe the lies and excuses they're spoonfed. Odds are, you are too. What you really fear is your own stupidity. Being played for a fool. Do you think the paladin clearing out a kobold lair in D&D is good? Or are they a murderer not even thinking about questioning orders? Data was tricked and fooled into that "good" mentality. Just like so many real people are when they're abused and taken advantage of.
What this vid shows is Picard getting Data to think about what he's been told is "good". There is no greater good. That's a lie. Things aren't black and white. They never have been, they never will be. Examine action, reaction, result. If you don't believe in what you're doing, if you have regret or shame or feel bad for whatever reason, hestitate or stall for whatever reason, then that's the point to think about it. Data was confused when he said he's confused. Which means he's confused enough to know something isn't adding up. If he already knew what he was doing was right then he wouldn't be confused. At that point in time Data can't say with certainty what he's doing is wrong either. It's only when Lore tells Data to kill Picard that Data (and only Data. No one else) comes to the conclusion that killing Picard would be "wrong" for him to do. Though of course the show doesn't seem to give an explanation for this. There are also shows where Data comes close to committing murder, so it's probably better to not make snap judgements on either account and instead consider that Data is just as subject to inner conflict as anyone else is. It's likely left open to interpretation/ambiguity by design. People react differently in the same situations and that's part of the charm.
Lore wants Data to prove himself by killing Picard. Data knows that would be wrong, yet doesn't elaborate about why. Making it about "right and wrong" is a pointless debate. Instead let's go with the logic of "What does it prove?" If Data did kill Picard then what does it mean? Borg are pretty big on unity, so it's at this point Lore made his first mistake. When Data doesn't kill Picard, Lore then proceeds to try and kill Data. Which is another sign of lack of unity and cohesion. Borg are pretty big on that. As intimidating as Borg may be, when it comes right down to it they're afraid of ending up alone and divided. Instead of seeing unity and assimilation, all Lore is displaying here is discarding. The Borg brainwashing tactics (the repeated voices about resistance being fultile in their heads) also don't apply here. These borg can think for themselves a bit more then the others.
This ultimately leads to rebellion. Lore made a speech about being in the same boat, which doesn't add up logically, and the delusion/denial which resulted in the hypocrisy leads to infighting. Lore actually believes the "greater good" and is blinded to his own denial.
Thing is it's very easy for people to lie to themselves. Blaming others without considering they're believing their own delusions. What if you're the stupid one? It seems strange to project ones own insecurities like that. Why make black and white snap judgements? What if most people are closed minded statistically? What if good intentions creates killers from ignorance when people don't understand?
Things are never as simple as people want them to be. That's why Picard got Data to think.
@@taramaforhaikido7272 I think you might be preaching to the wrong crowd lol.
Perhaps I've undersold the idea 'ethical arithmetic', it deserving a name more like 'ethical maths' but you're certainly underestimating the implications.
Consider the difference between 1-1=0 and the logarithms composing our most advanced 'AI'.
If you're considering the ethics of the simple trade of items of equal value, 1-1=0 is perfectly adequate. But if you're tackling issues like the distribution of wealth for a healthy and progressing society, it's horribly insufficient.
And that's not even considering the knowledge required to make a model even usable in the face of the problem at hand.
Ethical issues CAN be researched, described, analyzed and solved for to reach greater degrees of ethical 'goodness'. And as such, that means that WORK is increasingly needed to tackle ethical issues of greater complexity and impact.
Work that people refuse to do, directly and indirectly.
So yes, it is an issue of laziness.
Though it's also a mix of impatience, selfishness, lack of natured and nurtured sense of morals, and other such related things, I just say laziness because ultimately it's a choice of doing more work and choosing not to.
And there's a whole lot more that goes into the necessities of reaching a 'best reasonable solution' including education, habit establishment, life experiences, external support systems of varying kinds, etc etc.
I don't specifically mention the perspective of others because, to me at least, that's an inherently assumed part of ethics. I mean, that's almost all of what ethics is. Ethics without the considering of others is... one person living by themselves never to affect or be affected by anyone else...or choosing not ignore them, which is an absence of ethics.
Also, another important, and very relevant, part is 'bias'. Like the bias of oversimplification which leads people to think simplify issues to the point where "For The Greater Good" becomes the hammer with which to strike anything simplified to a proverbially nail. And it comes around, again, to laziness because a simple education in philosophy would prevent a lot of people from falling for such common bias.
And lack of education is compounding problem. You can't do what you don't know (unless by accident) so it becomes a case of blind masses leading the masses blind, with a minority of knowledge disseminators struggling against the tide of wilful ignorance.
Of course, that being the case could also just mean that the blind don't HAVE a choice with which they could be lazy, but in reality that's not the case since evidence of smarter/more knowledgeful = 'better decision making' suffuses our reality.
It could ALSO be the case that the most powerful among us deliberately attempt to keep the greater masses less educated. That has some substance to it, but with the advent of the internet and information accessibility, a person simply has to chose to learn more and put in the work.
But then the question becomes: "Why don't people choose to make the right choice? Why are they lazy in this regard?"
Well...that delves into rabbit hole of human nature, free will and other such abysses....which I most certainly will not tackle here lol.