Gary Payton says John Stockton was harder to guard than Michael Jordan
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- Опубліковано 2 вер 2013
- Gary Paryton argues that John Stockton was harder to defend than MJ.
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"You guys didn't play against him, I did."
Thank you Gary, fucking thank you.
to be fair gary payton liked to get up in all the stars faces and defend them and jordan and him have similar egos and mj would fall for his plan...and thats why mj got shut down in the 96 finals...think about it the bulls went 87-13 that year best team ever right?....3 of their loses came to gary payton and seattle...that was mjs worst scoring series ever cause gary wouldnt let him get to the rim... 23 points a night.........garys gonna be right up in you if you go at him and talk back he loves that...it means he got in your head...mj fell for it john didnt...john used screens and pick and roll and gary hates guys who are silent and dont really go at him aka spot up shooters who make cuts...gary loves guarding isolation players...one on one defense ...guys like kobe a tmac basically....gary would love to guard those guys over a reggie miller who you have to chase around
Stockton?? One of the best point guards to ever play the game. GP said it best as well his assist record will never be broken and he is one of the All time greats if not the best in steals as well. Free throw shooter? Top 5 of all time easily. Jordan is the best but people don't know that Larry Bird had Jordan's number on the court. Stockton no doubt deserved a ring and I wish he would have gotten one.
+Leonel Lomas agree with all u said but bird didn't have Jordan's number at all Jordan abused Boston every time he played them he just never had a good team yet while playing against those Celtics teams only person who really held Jordan in check a little was Gary Payton other then that nobody had Jordan's number that's false
+Leonel Lomas agree about Stockton he's one of the best to do it and needs to be recognized more such a great point gaurd and he used to give it to magic Johnson when he played him
For sure. When one of the greatest defensive point guards tell you how awesome John Stockton was, they might want to listen.
'"You Guys didn't play against him, I did!" END OF DISCUSSION
FroopieLoopies he lost to MJ miserably I wouldn’t call that against....
FroopieLoopies pretty much.
You mean he held MJ to 41% shooting and 28 points in game 4-6 on a torn hamstring that needed surgery?
The sonics did a documentary after every season, Coach Karl let Hersey guard him games 1-3 and if scottie pippen didnt miss that free throw so badly we would of taken it to a game 7 but please lets pretend other wise.
The book is closed
Ron Harper held Stockton to 9 points and 9 assists PER GAME in the second Bulls/Jazz rematch . Is that worst than 27.3 5 rbs and 4 assists ?
A bunch of regular people arguing with one of the greatest basketball players ever about basketball. Ok.
Ron Jeremy andy roddick regular people ?
Ron Jeremy Donovan McNabb is an NFL legend
Ron Jeremy There are a lot of Hall of Famers that disagree with Gary about this. Very strongly.
Chris Beasley in a different sport
Andy roddick is from tennis but still he is not a nobody.
How y'all gon tell him who was hardest to guard
Stevie Velez exactly
Stevie Velez yeee hahahaha How Sway😁
Yeah. Guarding and stopping are 2 different things. Guarding just means you're able to stay in front of him. Stopping means he can't score on you. You can stay in front of the ball handler all you want but if you can't stop or bother his jumpshot and make him miss, then he's just gonna keep on scoring on you. That's what the fade away is for.
Stevie Velez y'all
Right lol.
"You guys didn't play against him I did". Exactly. nothing anyone else says after that matters.
right
Facts. Discussion should’ve ended right there. All these non players always got something to say
John Stockton is so under rated. I dont think anyone will beat his assist record, plus he shot 50% from the field.
No one will come close!
Trill Cosby and he's still the all time steal leader as well.
Randy H. Ewing underated too.
Trill Cosby so is Carlton Banks but let's stay on topic.
its cause he white
Payton is talking about nuances that are hard to put into words in one minute. Certain match-ups are just tougher than others. Notice he never once said Stockton was "better". There is a difference.
RT-G2 speaking straight facts here
Plus, the expectation of guarding Jordan is that you are gonna get lit up. People would expect him to guard Stockton better and prevent him from scoring.
In this video, Payton gets a chance not just to explain but to demonstrate what he means about Stockton:
ua-cam.com/video/pB4lYjpDLYk/v-deo.htmlm29s
In short, Payton knows defense (among other things). I would love to talk ball with Payton instead of listening to that panel.
This. Great demonstration by Payton. The only thing I would add is he is a threat to just pull up for a 3 any time he feels like it, much like the Warriors of today. Here is another video showing all these skills (assists, layups, screen roll, the three point shot) during actual game play. Notice how immediately in the beginning the defenders relax and Stockton instantly burns them for a layup. ua-cam.com/video/QxiinwyeMow/v-deo.html
Thank you for breaking it down
a fundamental guy is way harder to deal with than an athletic guy. its mentally aggrivating
gary got into mjs head....stockton got into garys head i think....
Jordan was fundamentally sound, but no where near as fundamentally sound as Stockton or Duncan. When you're coached by Popavic, you're definitely fundamentally sound. There's a reason Tim Duncan was called the big fundamental.
You can compare any player when it comes to fundamentals. There's no law on that. There are actually centers that play more fundamentally sound than point guards. Stockton is the most fundamentally sound point guard of all point guards.
MJ was one of the most fundamentally best players ever along with incredible athleticism. let's be honest here. technically he had everything. this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.
+Brad Carter you ever played basketball. structured basketball for a team?high school, college?
With Jordan, you guard one player. with Stockton, you have to guard 5.
Ain't that the truth. Stockton would be seen as a much better player by the mainstream if he didn't play in a system that made him slow it down and get everybody else going. He probably coulda averaged 25-10 easy.
AbuOsama29 he could be league MVP multiple times if he play for d'antoni..
Exactly. Being the only scoring option on your team is like being the only one in your gang who has a gun.
You don't have to guard the center, because the Jazz always had lousy centers that couldn't even make putbacks/layups (yeah Ostertag, I'm talking to you). Carr was awesome though, even if he just joined us for retirement and Eaton was great, but he was that was retiring when Stockton/Malone peaked.
There it is
Yeah let's all question Gary Payton. I mean he's just an NBA Hall of Famer. What does he know?
Randy H. He is also a one time champion
Nba Videos He also won DPOY
he was a great defensive player so i believe in him . john Stockton is not athletic as Jordan but johmn has a lot of Basketball IQ than Jordan
Randy H. We know he still salty No Chip thank to me easier to guard 😂😂😂
jona pali if he had more in then he'd actually win a ring
When the Bulls went up 3-0 on the Sonics, Payton pleaded with George Karl to let him guard MJ, Karl gave GP his wish, the Sonics won the next 2 games but ultimately lost in 6.
Jordan's shooting numbers in the finals with GP on him...
GM4: 6/19
GM5: 11/22
GM6: 5/19
He isn't talking shit, he genuinely didn't have too much trouble with MJ.
+Lmoney86 damn with those stats i realize that the sonics would have legitimately won that series if gary had guarded jordan all the way through
dsuchmiel ok i over exaggerateduld have won but i think it would have gone to a age 7. bulls r great and mj is still the goat either way so
+dsuchmiel What the fck does that have to do with GP slowing down Jordan? Jordan had a great team to back him. Those two teams were among the greatest of all time. Sonics get more than 64 wins if not for some injuries and they go to game 7 if Nate was healthier. Sonics and Bulls of 96 BOTH beat Golden State of 2016 and not even 7 games I assure you. GP was the greatest perimeter defender of all time.
Word
+Lmoney86 Okay now lets put up Stocktons 7 game series 96 wcf against Seattle.
Game 1-2 for 10 with 4 points
Game 2-5 for 8 11 points
Game 3-2 for 9 with 9 points
Game 4-3 for 9 7 points
Game 5-1 for 6 4 points
Game 6-5 for 11 14 points
Game 7-9 for 15 22 points.
The average sports fan doesn't understand basketball. Was MJ a better isolation scorer, of course. But like Gary said, a guy who goes off picks correctly, moves well without the ball, makes the right decisions, uses his body, protects the ball, and just generally plays smart can be a nightmare. Especially when you consider that he was an all-time great shooter and passer.
I can see myself siding with Payton here. And he's right about Jordan never dropping 50 on him. GP put the clamps on Mike.
Man O'Neal He put the clamps on mike? Aii
Dude GANEY Yes. Great scorers like Jordan will always get their 20, but Mike definitely had a tough time with GP.
That's true, because a lot of people said Rip Hamilton was one of the hardest players to guard. But Rip ain't no Kobe or nothing.
Man O'Neal Jordan also had the same mentality as Payton, if you talk trash to him he will talk back at you and Payton loved that because he could get into his head and affect his game. Stockton on the other hand, was silent the entire game and there was no amount of thrash talking that could affect him which probably drove Payton crazy and would affect his game much more than stockton's (as gary said he would always post the same numbers every single game)
Man O'Neal he dropped 40s few times on him
I love how they ask him to defend his point, and then give him 10 seconds to do so
SuprSilvr I kno right?
SuprSilvr Gary wasn't being specific enough just like Pippen. He ment he was harder to guard without the ball. No once Jordan got the ball there was nothing Gary could do to stop him. Now as for Stockton with the ball, you don't need to do nothing, he aint gonna do nothing with it.
should be 24 seconds right? ;)
Why are some fools trying to tell GARY PAYTON who's harder to guard? Like really? I'm sure HE would know.
Bradley Banford Gary wasn't being specific enough just like Pippen. He ment he was harder to guard without the ball. No once Jordan got the ball there was nothing Gary could do to stop him. Now as for Stockton with the ball, you don't need to do nothing, he aint gonna do nothing with it.
Gary Payton had some sweet shoes
Really all Gary had to say was that Jordan was the better player, but Stockton was more frustrating to guard. All these other guys and the public read it as Gary saying that Stockton was better than Jordan.
You got a blonde chick who probably never played organized sports, a mediocre retired NFL quarterback, an underachieving former tennis player, and some guy I don't even recognize questioning an NBA hall of famer on something BASKETBALL related? WTF!!!!!!!
RIGHT????
Lol damn
+jpowers55 the guy you dont recognize works for the Los Angeles Dodgers front office, he actually does great work and he won a ring with the Boston Red Sox in 2007.
+moegerms what does that have to do with basketball
+jpowers55 butmichaeljordanisthegreatestestofalltime herrrr deeerrrrrrrrrr
I agree, he's not talking about who's better. Payton had to run into Karl Malone, who's built like brick wall, 25 times a game on the screen and roll. I'm sure Payton was aware of it which made it even more frustrating, but because Stockton can hit the jumper when he wanted to, you couldn't take your eyes off him and anticipate where the pick was coming from otherwise he'll put up 25 points and still get his 15-20 assists. He's trying to explain Basketball to these morons and they don't even listen to what the fuck he's saying.
+jonmolina948 - true bro. Hate it when you defend your case against idiots who know nothing about the game. Jordan sure, nobody can stop him. He is the greatest ever. But when you make an argument on a position by position point of view. Of course GP would say Stockton is harder because that's their natural position. He is only pitted with Jordan because their SG is not capable of defending MJ.
+jonmolina948 NAILED it.
tank
+jonmolina948 Great comment, and completely agree they are not considering the context of the roles each was playing stopping Stockton as a distributor and game manager vs stopping Jordan as scorer. More levels to the Stockton puzzle for Gary to solve. And like you said he played and against both at their best. Its his opinion, and he is the only person who truly knows how he feels about it.
jonmolina948
Gary Payton played against both Stockton and Jordan repeatedly. He would know. The idiots saying that he's "wrong" have no place even speaking on the subject. Payton did a decent job on Jordan at times. It's true that Stockton was more fundamentally sound than Jordan. The sum of his game wasn't greater than Jordan's, but he was more fundamentally sound.
Gary Payton guarded Michael Jordan in games 4 through 6 of the '96 finals, while nursing a torn calf muscle. He didn't guard him in games 1 through 3. In games 4 through 6, the Sonics went 2-1, and Jordan shot 22 for 60 with 11 turnovers. I'd say Gary is an authority on guarding MJ.
And these stats came from??
Also Payton is the only PG to win defensive player of the year.
*****
u obviously know shit about basketball. gary never said stockton is the better player, he said stockton is the harder player to guard and that is fundamentally sound
aznvi3tboiz16 His name speaks for itself dude.
I remember watching a video showing john stockton shake and bake michael jordan. Im not suprised with Gary Payton comments.
Y'all must be too young to remember that Payton is the only PG to win DPOY, and is widely known as the only dude that slow down MJ one on one.
Alvin Robertson won as a PG too though. Dont forget that.
Jordan couldn't get slowed down by any player that guarded him especially when he was on
bobby gray Nigga you're too young, I had my money on the Bulls that year but I ain't lying when I said the glove had his number.
My name is Jeff yeah if I remember correctly, MJ struggled in the field a bit when Payton was on him the last 2 games in the finals
My name is Jeff he played good defense that year but he can't stop MJ no one can. He struggled but I don't think it had anything to do with Gary. I'm not taking anything away from him like I said when he gets on couldn't nobody stop him or slow him down....he struggled in the playoffs that next yr in 97 when they played the Heat he was 0 for 12 at halftime but he kept shooting because his shot was off and he wasn't get enough lift on it. I think he finished that game like 9 for 30 something and it had nothing to do with defense...
A bunch of couch potatoes who sit and watch basketball are going to try and argue with arguably one of the greatest PG defenders off all time? What nonsense?
Im A Savage McNabb is no couch potato.
THE greatest pg defender
says the couch potato whose never even played in the NBA
How can random people argue on who was toughest to defend with a guy who ACTUALLY defended against them?! That's mind-blowing! Plus it's just an opinion! GP thought that, for him it was harder against Stockton, that's it. But how can a guy who never played can argue and tell him he's wrong?!
People are trippin. Payton said Stockton was harder for HIM to guard. And that's completely believable. Stockton was the best pure point guard in terms of fundamentals the game has ever seen. Of course he was a nightmare for other POINT GUARDS to defend, because no other point guard COULD defend him. Just look at his averages throughout his career and it was obvious that no point guard in the league could stop him from doing pretty much whatever he wanted to on the court.
Galactic123 Gary wasn't being specific enough just like Pippen. He ment he was harder to guard without the ball. No once Jordan got the ball there was nothing Gary could do to stop him. Now as for Stockton with the ball, you don't need to do nothing, he aint gonna do nothing with it.
liquidlight86 you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and most certainly not what Payton is talking about.
mark brinton Really so your saying Gary Payton could stop Michael Jordan with the ball?😆
liquidlight86 nobody can stop a great offensive player, but he did hold MJ below his normal output when they switched Payton on him. Look up the numbers.
liquidlight86 also, I'll take the opinion of the best defensive PG in history over yours or anyone's on who was hardest for him to guard.
How they going to tell Gary he is wrong when it's him that played against both?
exactly
mike time Like he said: "You didn't have to guard him. I did."
he mad mj eliminated him
Mike C Stockton eliminated him too
Living Haiti Gary wasn't being specific enough just like Pippen. He ment he was harder to guard without the ball. No once Jordan got the ball there was nothing Gary could do to stop him. Now as for Stockton with the ball, you don't need to do nothing, he aint gonna do nothing with it.
First off the man never stated that John Stockton was a better basket ball player than Michael Jordan he simply said he was harder to guard. He probably was just really elusive, slipper, and set screens which made him difficult to guard. It's like if someone said it's harder to guard Kyrie Irving then it is to guard Lebron James because of Kyrie's outstanding handling and quickness. Doesn't mean Lebron is a around better player just means Kyrie is harder to guard. Same applies for John Stockton and Michael Jordan.
+Beezy Jayrock Stockton was harder to guard because its a team game not a one on one. One on one, I'd bet my life GP would say Jordan was harder to guard. In a team game however, with Stockton as you say utilizing screens and dishin out assists left right and centre would've been annoying.
Most people are so brainwashed by the media so when they hear Jordan's name, they automatically assume he was the best at everything. Jordan is the greatest of all time, absolutely but I can see where Gary is coming from. I don't think Gary means Stockton was the hardest to guard one on one (which would be Jordan and Kobe) but rather than he was the most difficult to predict. Stockton was, in my opinion, the greatest "floor general" in NBA history and he knew how to run an offense better than anyone (Chris Paul is up there too). With Stockton, you never knew what he was going to do. Stockton ran the most beautiful pick and roll/pop, knew how to find the open man and get the pass to him (most of which fans and other players couldn't see), and knew how to play dirty. What I think Gary is saying is that Stockton could do everything offensively (passing, sharpshooting, running an offense, cheating you off of defensive mistakes) where was Jordan was the most ruthless one on one player ever because let's be real here, Jordan wasn't passing the ball when he saw a challenge. Jordan would attack you whereas Stockton would find the easiest way to punish you.
Vince Carter I agree
Vince Carter well said brother. John Stockton doesn't get enough credit because he didn't get a ring but his assists record will never be touched. He knew how to pass the ball better than any player in NBA history, his vision of the court, free throw shooting, his steals, is something that will make him the best floor general ever.
Vince Carter great comment
"when they hear Jordan's name, they automatically assume he was the best at everything." Great line
why can't people accept who gary payton personally found harder to guard? it's his opinion and he's been there.
Exactly! He's telling these guys from his own experience that he was harder to guard than Michael Jordan...and why would you not agree with one of the best defenders in all time of NBA ...the Glove...Gary Payton. Absurd! I can believe it too...because of all those damn pick and rolls set for Karl Malone and back screens as well.
Stockton was pesky, did the dirty work, and yet so fundamentally sound. He moved around so much. And on top of that, he didn't speak one word to his opponent. I can understand how that would be deflating to a marquee trash talker and elite defender in Payton
Idiots trying to argue with one of the greatest defenders of all time.. I think he knows a little more then the pundits.....
Jesse Henley that's what I was thinking
Thats wat im sayin! Lol
i can see garry saying it and i belive it. Payton could try to match jordan athletisim, but stockton was a mad small genius, Very high IQ of playing the game and very ellisive and unpredicatble, using his brain as his biggest weapon, i believe him 100%
Payton was one of the best defenders earning the nickname The Glove lol best believe and accept it when he's telling the truth
Stockton wasn't just smart and scrappy, he was lightning fast. Look at the NBA career steals leaders, guys like Jordan, Iverson, Payton, Blaylock....his athletics is vastly underrated.
Corey Tournet he wasn't lightning fast he just knew where too be at the right time
Stockton's got the most assist. You're not really guarding Stockton when you're playing. You're guarding everyone.
With that said, I just want to know, how did I get on this post???? I don't see myself writing in here earlier and it just appeared in my notifications. Is this a new thing for youtube???
Yes, he absolutely was lightning fast. 2 guys chasing a loose ball 10 feet away? Stockton would almost always get it. I'm not sure about say a 40 yard dash, but within short distances, he was simply quicker than most opponents.
I think what he was trying to say was that it was harder to stop Stockton from doing what he did...when Payton was having a really good defensive game against Jordan, he could be effective. Not that he "stopped" Jordan from scoring, but that he could affect Jordan's efficiency...and Payton could do that, sometimes impressively (once holding Jordan to 14 points in a finals game). Stockton was not the scorer that Jordan was (only a very few could be considered in that category) but Payton had a harder time changing Stockton's line. Payton would, as one of the premier defensive guards of all time, have little effect on Stockton's game. Stockton played a different position than Jordan, had very different skills, but not lessor skills. Jordan couldn't have done what Stockton did anymore than Stockton could have done what Jordan did. That is one of the problems with the cult of Jordan (or Lebron or Kobe)...There were always players (even on his own team) that were better than he was at some things. Pippen was a far better defender and rebounder for instance...Jordan could never have had the defensive impact on a game that Hakeem had...or come close to playing the point like Stockton. Payton was a prideful guy and a fierce mind gamer. He would play Stockton and Stockton would still get his 18, 14 and 2 just like clock work...and never loose his cool. That is what the guy is trying to say.
Charon58 I’m three years late to the party, but I LOVE your comment here. Nailed it.
It is a fact that John Stockton was more efficient than Michael Jordan. So I think that is what he was referring to. Jordan scored more but took two or three times as many shots as Stockton per game. Stockton was a machine! He holds the NBA record for most career assists and steals! On top of all that he found a way to score 20 points a night! He is by far the greatest point guard to ever play the game!
+Torrey Williams As much as I like Stockton , you have lost your mind !!!! .
+WISHBONEL7 wtf are you on about. He's right.
Shemzinho
You are also delusional .
***** L
Noneya Bizness That's not what we mean by efficiency but hey. But by your logic MJ got those 6 rings by himself; and we now that's not the case.
For a moment, this idiots almost shut up when Gary said that, "You didn't play against him, I did". This is the problem with this blubber mouths, they talk all day based on what they're just seeing, unlike former NBA players who actually played the game. Who would you believe, the ones who watched, or the one who played the game?
Listen to what he said people! He didn't say Stockton was a better basketball player than Michael Jordan. However, if a guy has over 20 points, 15 assists, and four steals,that means that individual responsible for contributing a minimum of 50 points to the game, minimum! John Stockton had seven years in a row Ricky was averaging somewhere around 20 points and 15 assists. That's what he was saying by John Stockton was the more efficient player.
+Whitney Allen That's what YOUR saying LOL... he never said that. he clearly said he was harder to guard with little details provided. If you wish to assume his reasoning, then your first assumption should be the one obvious from watching games (I watched many) - and that is Stockton never attacked Payton, he simply looked for loopholes in the team defensive sets and would work around Payton LOOKING for the best choice of play. whereas Jordan attacked Payton (like he did everyone) but this makes you vulnerable to losing the ball on the dribble or giving Payton the opportunity to steal now and then, therefor making Payton FEEL like it was easier to defend Michael, along with the fact that Jordan brought out the BEST in Payton as Payton clearly says here because they were the two biggest talkers in the game those years and since Payton was THE NUMBER ONE trash talker in the day, he would get amped up when Jordan tried his trash talk.... Payton played well against Jordan - period
+Julius Paul I wasn't refuting anything you said. I am 31 yrs old and grew up during the Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, John Stockton days. The point I was trying to make is people were acting like what Gary said about Stockton being more difficult for HIM to play against than MJ. I was simply trying to illustrate that what Gary said made perfect sense. Stock and was contributing to more points and was more fundamental in his diversity that made it harder for him to shut down. It's not a knock on MJ or based on some type of bias towards Stockton. I was trying to illustrate to the Michael Jordan fans, that were up in arms about Gary's comments, that what Gary said made perfect sense.
GP has the patience of an iguana. how he didnt pop off on these idiots is an inhumane feat of will power.
Nick R seriously they we're ticking me off
Hate that they make him only talk for seconds, I feel this should be like a good 20 minutes of analysis.
If you are interested in Payton's perspective, he actually demonstrates here: ua-cam.com/video/pB4lYjpDLYk/v-deo.htmlm29s
Great demo
John Stockton is underrated even though he was a DURABLE little guard that played in the era where basketball was PHYSICAL. I mean come on, he barely missed any games in his entire career and he made smart plays and had Hall of Famer Karl Malone with him !
He(Stockton) is also a hall of Famer, he didnt just play with one...
Indeed, in 19 years he only missed 54 games and played 1504 games. More noteworthy is that he played 16 full 82-game seasons, but we all get old at some point.
Stockton in general is one of the most underrated athletes of all time...i guess because he just looks like an average white guy? People that aren't true fans don't realize he's pretty much the greatest point guard of all time and his #1 records in assists and steals will likely never be broken...even when he was on the Dream Team & all his other teammates would be swarmed in the streets, nobody even recognized him when he was out in public.
SpeedOfThought1111 that team had a lot of underrated players. Just don't forget the underrated of all underrated: Jeff hornacek. Grab that and take it to the bank.
Exactly. So many comments are about him having good fundamentals, but he was an Olympic level athlete too. He was lightning quick, you don't get to be the all time NBA steals leader with just fundamentals. There are tons of Division III college basketball players with great fundamentals, none of them even make it to the NBA. He was a world class athlete.
Yea I think you guys are right about Stockton and Nash. They were both lightning quick and world class athletes. They didn't have 40" verticals, but were as lightning quick as almost anybody in the nba. They were extremely athletic and agile in their primes. But of course they were white guys so the perception was there that they weren't athletic.
SpeedOfThought1111 the most underrated
FLOOOPPER
You sound crazy, Magic was the assist record holder in 10 seasons....retired after 12, then Stockton eventually got the record after playing 19 seasons, smh...
the notion an analyst would know as much or even more than the subject player himself is wrong more often than not. You can be a great observer of the game, know all your stats and NBA history, but if you haven't stepped on the court and looked a man in the eye, fought NBA playoff wars - there's a whole dimension you have no clue about and everything you've been building for argument can blow into ashes in a second. Nothing beats the physical experience.
yoe91 Gary wasn't being specific enough just like Pippen. He ment he was harder to guard without the ball. No once Jordan got the ball there was nothing Gary could do to stop him. Now as for Stockton with the ball, you don't need to do nothing, he aint gonna do nothing with it.
Ben Daulton The footage is quite clear, Gary got swept and humiliated by Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls.
Facts
@yoe91 ...NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. Jordan 6 time finals MVP. Ron Harper held Stockton to 9 points and 9 assists in the second Bulls/Jazz rematch . case closed . Payton also hates Steve Nash 2 time MVP.
@@liquidlight86 bruh, people don't pay attention to stats at all, GP was putting the clamps on MJ the past couple games of that series, stop acting like MJ is magic bird and LeBron all in one, he's the greatest ever, we get it, but he wasn't a great passer, that was the problem, if you could at least try to slow Jordan's scoring down, then you had a better chance of beating the bulls, whereas with John, he could use picks, pass (all time assist leader), shoot, or drive
No surprising here...
Great Point guard is harder to guard than Great Shooting guard.
it has always been like that...
, NO Mj is A BasketBall King. A whole Team can't stop MJ. Payton hates MJ lol
Perry Pitts A whole team can't stop MJ? Man that's some serious cock sucking.
My name is Jeff I agree. And didn't i just see you on a different vid talking about Kareem? My man.
Dylan de Jong My nigga.
Perry Pitts A whole team can't stop MJ? The Pistons called; they'd like to have a word with you =)
Can't argue with Gary Payton, he was the one out there guarding both players so he knows better than anyone.
Guarding five players is harder than guarding one
oooohhhh cause Stockton was a point god and could set up anybody to score. Very trueee yeah fuck those people trying to tell Gary about basketball
good point bruh
NICE. Drop the mike Alexis
Alexis Snyder Best comment. Makes the point exactly.
Alexis Snyder Jordan had Hall of Framers on his team what you talking about?
This is legit, for years GP and Kemp were going battle against Malone and Stockton. GP probably compared themselves against Stockton and Malone. Kemp and GP were more athletic but Stockton and Malone were so much more effective. GP defended Jordan in the 96 final and Payton along with the Sonic did a pretty good job on MJ. They limited MJ to a few games in the 20s, that's low for playoff MJ. However, I don't think GP never stopped Stockton.
I AGREE fully with Payton.
I'm gonna say another thing too and go even further and SAY that John Stockton, in his prime, was a BETTER offensive force than Michael Jordan was in his prime.
BLASPHEMY#%$#^&*(
Nope, just the truth.
And I'm gonna prove it!
Now all off you are gonna say: "Pfff! Jordan in his best year averaged 37.1 ppg while Stockton in his best year averaged 17.2 ppg. OWNED!!!" No Contest. The G.O.A.T Wins by a landslide etc.
NOT TRUE!
In fact, FAAR from it.
If you want to to calculate the full offensive contribution of a players you must also take into the account their assists*, their efficiency** and their arsenal of offensive tools*** a defender has to deal with.
_* Assists_
First let's calculate the average net worth of an assist in that era, which is above 2 pts and not exactly 2 points because you also have to take into the account the three point plays.
In NBA, at that time, the ratio of field goals to 3 points made was around 13:1, so that puts the average worth of an assist at around 2.07 points. In today's times the ratio is closer to 10:1.
Here I'm gonna list the best personal years of both players in the NBA:
In *'87 Jordan* had 37.1 ppg and 4.6 ast (in 40 minutes) with 0.182 3pt% = 37.1 + 4.6*2.07 = *46,62* total combined points from goals and assists per game
In *'90 Stockton* had 17.2 ppg and 14.5 ast (in 37.4 minutes!) with 0.416 3pt% = 17.2 + 14.5*2.07 = *47,21* total combined points from goals and assists per game
So as you can clearly see, Stockton's offensive OUTPUT is straight up better than Jordan's just by BRUTE points/assists combined.
_* * Efficiency:_ It is widely known that Stockton was by far the most efficient PASSER, by FAR, out of all the point guards, not even Magic being able to match his best years with his. In fact, the only reason Stockton is #2 at efficiency per career behind Magic is because Magic retired early because of his HIV while Stockton grew old and his last years hurt his stats.
Stockton IS the #1 & #1 in most assists Ever and in most Steals Ever by light years ahead of anyone else.
Related to efficiency, the Jordan comparison and the *combined points&assists* per game above, I can also say that Jordan played more minutes than Stockton as I pointed out (40 min vs 37.4min). As a matter of fact, per 36 min Jordan has only 41,88 pts vs 45,58 of Stockton's
_* * * Offensive arsenal_
Although Jordan was extremely good at driving to the rim and a good free throw shooter, he was limited in everything else:
Jordan's 3PT% in '87 was 0,182 while Stockton's 3PT% '90 was 0.416%. This was another dimension that Jordan didn't have. Not even late in his career did he even get close to John.
Jordan's passing, although decent, was no where near Stockton's in numbers or efficiency. Although he may have made 5 assists on average, it would have taken him a lot more failed attempts than Stockton. As a matter of fact, even though Stockton made double Jordan's career assist and shot more 3 pointers than Jordan per game, he has the same turnovers.
In a Payton vs Jordan match up, Payton could have ignored MJ passing and focus only on 1-v-1 defending because most of MJ's offensive came from his going to the basket, so if Paydon could guard him all game, as he stated "If I could guard him to the fullest", then he takes a big chunk from his points tally.
In a Stockton vs Payton 1-v-1 match up, even if Payton makes the perfect one on one defense, since 55% of Stockton's offense is in his play making, that only does half the job. He also has to do an equally stellar defense to take away Stockton's passing channels. Payton had to chose his poison or do a crummy job on both. Basically, by not putting all his eggs in one basket as they say, Stockton's becomes that much harder to guard.
Most of Jordan's passes came when he bogged down in the paint, so he either dished the ball out wide for a low % 3pt play or back in the center for a low % 2pt jump shot to... Pippen.
Stockton always tried to hit the big man in the post or do a fundamental pick-n-roll. So what are you gonna ignore, Jordan to Pippen or Stockton to Malone?!
The way Payton says it at the end and what he was trying to say was that after all those games where he guarded Stockton it was still tough for him than the fewer times he guarded MJ. That says something. When a quality defender guards you for years, he should eventually get better at defending you because he will learn your moves. Just like Bobby Fischer would eventually stop losing chess matches against weaker adversaries after playing them a couple of times, the better the opposing player, the longer taking to read their game. But because the way Stockton played, like Russell said about Wilt Chamberlain, Payton could only put a few speed bumps in Stockton's way. On the other hand, if he would have played Jordan more, he would have only gotten better at stopping him. By all means, as one of the best defenders in NBA history, Payton is entitled to feel that John Stockton was harder for him to guard than Michael Jordan.
Title: john stockton is harder to guard than MJ. assists? and percentages? wtf stfu dumbass.. its a 1on1 basketball comparison fool. gary payton hating mj in the first place, 2nd dude jordans flying to the rim man. i never hear one commentator that said john stockton is unguardable. When they say it almost every shot to michael jordans. " basketball is for blacks dude" put lebron james on john stockton he dead.. harder to guard than mj my ass.. blocks every shot!!
*****
Only a bitch that doesnt know shit about basketball would argue with me on this topic. gary payton hating on michael because he always lose to the bulls in the playoffs, and they almost fight in game 6 1996 fool. saying a avg 17.1 ppg player is harder to defend than the leagues "MVP" is absolutely ridiculous. ARGUMENT STOPS HERE FOOL.
*****
like i said.. its a 1on1 stats comparison not team. dont you see 2 INDIVIDUAL NAMES.. thats single player stats comparison not team.. when you say that someone is hard to defend its how they attack the rim, not pass the ball. so steve nash is harder to defend than derrick rose?? because of assist percentages?? lol. how many times michael jordan gets double team? count.. thats hard to defend fool
*****
no seriously.theres no way john stockton is a better offensive player than michael jordan. COunt the mvps... championship rings.. if you ever been into a basketball gym "school gym" or whatever.. you would know how hard is it to defend a black basketball player.
Wow, very informative and well thought out comment.
I think I get what Gary is saying. The way Stockton did it probably posed more problems. You have to keep in mind we're not talking about a game of 1 on 1, but 5 on 5. i doubt Gary is saying in a game of 1 on 1, Stockton would be a harder cover. But, in a team game, utilizing all his team to maximum effectiveness, it probably could have been harder.
Right? Stockton would be a threat to give the ball to the best possible option.
I used to watch John Stockton play and that man is one of the greatest. Arguably the most underrated player ever!! Folks are crazy!!
Stockton is a bum he couldnt measure up to any of the great points guards at all by any measure !! Honestly he was just another GREAT WHITE HOPE the NBA needed because of course it was maybe 80% black at the time. Stockton was so OVERRATED it was criminal. If he was black he would have never praised or as recognized for the player he was.
@@davidpouncy8471 Idk how having 2 all time records that would probably never be broken makes him a bum? Quit hating.
@@davidpouncy8471 You should delete this embarrassing post
@@eggs6648 Stockton overshadowed a lot of players because he was white period. He didnt have any outstanding talent he was a average scorer, average athlete, didnt have any physical attributes that stood out, boring to watch, couldn't guard his lunch, a dirty player and thank God he had malone no malone no record !!
@@the757general2 The truth hurts and I bet my life your white lolbs. I would literally bet my life. Stockon is a bum he would even stand out in a park district tournament in Chicago lolbs.
Stockton is the Tim Duncan of point guards. Or is Tim Duncan the John Stockton power fowards?
B Simmons Good one!
B Simmons nah not tim duncan cus he never once a ring unfortunately
what? i never said he wasnt good or anything im just saying you cant compare john stockton to tim duncan. you usually compare someone if they have similar achievements or play a like. like tim duncan he could be compared with kobe, very similar players, very similar achievements and both players game ages slow despite kobes injuries. i would compare john stockton to jason kidd or magic
Tim Duncan is the David Robinson of Power Forwards.
It's kind of amazing to me that Payton not only actually played many years in the NBA, but is one of the best defenders to ever play the game, and he played not only against Jordan and Stockton but also against many other great players - in other words, he's more than qualified to have and give his opinion on this ... but you got all these fans that completely disregard his opinion and even are angry that he has this opinion. And it's all because some people are so far up MJ's butt that they are blind and think he could never do anything wrong. I've noticed there are a lot of Shaq fans that are the same way. MJ and Shaq are both great players, but they are/were also extremely marketable and profitable for the NBA, and the NBA wanted you to think they could do nothing wrong ($$$$). So many people fell hard into the marketing trap and are still blind even though both MJ and Shaq haven't played for years. Meanwhile, the NBA is still getting rich off both MJ and Shaq even today.
The league almost failed as a business, Magic Vs. Bird revived it, MJ sustained and grew it and since then the league has just been trying to chase that dragon.
You lost me when you threw Shaq in the same sentence as MJ
Gary Payton is absolutely right. Also, it saddens me to see that major network television "sports analysts" would be so naive as to fall under the spell of Jordanism. It seems objectivity has become a lost cause these days...
Payton is completely right. Stockton played team basketball at its best. The statistic about the assists shows only a part of influence of Stocktons unselfish playstyle.
Nobody has counted his screens. Nobody has called the passes for good chances which only could be stopped by a foul. Not without reason Malone is the player with the most freethrows. But the pass to Malone was not counted as an assist.
An nobody has counted the charging fouls provoked by Stockton.
Stockton is very underestimated but in my opinion he was one of the greatest player that we have seen. He is in my personal Top 10. Malone is overestimated. The reason is that too many people disregard the essence of the game and overestimate the statistics for points and rebounds. In football (real football, that one that is playing with the feet) the role of a the playmaker has a higher estimation. The playmaker (e.g. Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Maradona, Zidane) or a special midfielder with a high inflluence on the game (e.g. Xavi, Iniesta, Toni Kroos, Modrić) don't have the most goals or assists but they are more important than the more conspicuous goal getter. And real experts know that.
dralger Stockton made malone, but only those who know basketball would understand that.
+dralger I'm totally agree with you.
+dralger No one counted all of the dirty elbows and jersey grabs that Stockton did, either.
+dralger What a spot on post well said. Stockton had an edge to him too - he played a bit physical but man he had heart.
john Stockton was the dennis rodman of point guards
stockton averaged 20pts,11 assists,3steals,2TO a game.. thats almost 60-70 points a game... do the math guys.. he is the most underrated player ever...nobody is saying he is better than jordan..but for me he is certainly more valuable....
Who are these four idiots to tell Gary he is wrong.
Every player is different, each player exposes weaknesses others don't.
Would you rather defend Charles Oakley or Blake Griffin, both power forwards, both with completely different games. Because you can stop one and not the other, doesn't make one better.
One of those idiots didn't even know the rules of his own game. He also threw up during a game and lied about it, even though people throw up being nervous all the time. Oh wait, he was fat and out of shape.
Why are people so up in arms about this? He's not saying that he was a better player, just harder to guard.
People tend to forget just how good Stockton was. He didn't have Jordan's flash, but who does? Besides, greatness isn't just about flash.
Stockton was the "maestro" of that Jazz team. He was a guy who knew where the other four were at any given moment, which made him so unpredictable because defenders always had to worry about him passing the ball in any given direction. He moved the ball around better than any PG (and I would argue better than any PLAYER) of his era (and possibly all time). He was always fundamentally sound and mentally disciplined; he only shot when he had to and the opportunity was there and hardly ever forced any shots outside times of desperation. I don't even remember one time when he "broke."
Guys like Payton and Jordan got into opponents' heads through both their play and their mouths. Stockton did it through his play alone, and it's clear he was damn good at it because he's STILL in Payton's head after all these years.
This segment was very pro Jordan that it was disrespectful to the great john stockton.
MJ is the most overrated player of all time... He doesn't deserve the praise he receives. I wish people would do some research and stop putting him on this pedestal.
lonelymixtape people actually think he is God..it sickens me when greats like Magic and Bird are never considered.. they stopped Jordan in the 80's
Six championship rings is all the research I need. Granted, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were at the same level as Michael Jordan. It's too bad we can't have a time machine and have all the great teams play against each other when the players are in their prime. Otherwise, the debate on who is the greatest is moot.
I am not saying Jordan was bad. He is a top 3, maybe 4 SG in history. He is not the GOAT, although the media has succeeded in portraying him as exactly that.
He won 6 championships, all of which took place during an era of expansion, thus diluting the pool of talent.... I could go on, but I am not here to preach.
I do think it's worth pointing out that if the only 'research you need' is championship rings, I suggest you learn about a guy named Bill Russel. Jeez, by that logic Robert Horry trumps Jordan with a whopping 7 of them.
Hakeem hasn't gone on record calling MJ the G.O.A.T
Stockton just frustrated Payton a lot more & there was no answer for his intangibles. U know what MJ is gonna do & u know what u have to do, so the prepping is easier. If he scored on GP, it was easier to accept because he was bigger, stronger & more athletic. With Stockton, it was almost like ur prep work was nullified. Even though GP was bigger, stronger & more athletic than John, he still couldn't stop him for some very odd frustrating reason. Dude was just that tough.
Totally agree.... With John S u wouldn't know if he would drive ..pull up ..shoot a 3...dribble left.. Right.. Swing the ball etc... He had to guess and anticipate much more with Stockton than jordan and if people don't get this u don't know basketball.... And J Stockton was top 50 players of all time...
RAS 123 I'd go as far as top 20. He's the league leader in career assists and career steals. Ok, so he had a long career. But he's #2 in assists per game behind Magic Johnson, and #8 in steals per game in the company of players like Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, Chris Paul, and Alvin Robertson. He's #32 in 2P%, behind #31 Magic Johnson at just over 54%. Almost everyone higher than that is a big man that plays the post. His #45th most points scored is very respectable for a PG. So, you start listing best point guards and you are probably going to take Magic, then Iverson, and then who??
Matthew Reynolds The best PGs are gonna be Magic, Oscar, Zeke, Stockton. Stockton still played at a high level at age 40 & 1 of the best defenders at the PG position. A player, who didn't even like him, admits that he was the toughest to play against.
pretty sure this guy know more then yall who was harder to defend between Jordan and stockton he was an NBA players
He was also one of the best in NBA
I don't see why this is a big deal. Style make fights. Even in basketball. GP just matched up better against Michael than he did against Stockton. So what?
People need to stop being prisoners of the moment from both ends of the spectrum. You have people that are going crazy because of Gary Payton's comments thinking it's totally ridiculous to suggest that guarding Michael Jordan is anything less than impossible. Then you have other people calling Jordan "overrated" and calling people that are defending Jordan "dick riders" or sausage eaters.
*SMDH* I guess we have to do this......
Michael Jordan career stats
30.1 PPG
5.3 APG
6.2 RPG
2.3 SPG
Over 50% from the field. 83% from the free throw line. Led the league in scoring in every full season he played with the Bulls outside of his rookie year. Oh by the way, 1984-85 Rookie Of The Year.
5 league MVP awards, 3 All-Star game MVPs, 2 Slam Dunk titles, 6 NBA Finals MVPs and undefeated in the NBA Finals. Most points in a playoff game (63) against the Boston Celtics. Tied for more field goals made in a playoff game (24) with Wilt Chamberlain and John Havlicek. Most consecutive field goals in a playoff game against the Los Angeles Lakers in 1991. The most 50, 40, and 30 point games in the playoffs. Only player to have at least 15+ points in every playoff game. Only player to record back-to-back 50+ point games. Most consecutive 45 point games. One of only two players in NBA history to be named league MVP and Defensive Player Of The Year in one season (Hakeem Olajuwon being the other.) 9-time All Defensive Team. 2 Olympic gold medals, and one NCAA National Championship with North Carolina.
I could go on and on about his accolades (I'm not even joking because there are a TON more of awards and tops stats of his) but I've made my point. No matter what excuses, semantics, or butthurt that will follow this post to try and belittle anything Jordan did,
A. I *don't* care so don't expect a response.
and
B. You can't argue with the facts. So accept it and move on with your life.
You DON'T have to like Michael Jordan. The guy himself is actually kind of a sleaze-bag and I heard THAT from people that know him closely. A LOT of people. However, that has no bearing on his abilities on the court. Most (not all) of the best players in every sport are jerks. It's an unfortunate reality. That said, anyone calling Jordan "overrated" need to be slapped in the face with a man-hole cover. Like him or not, he's the greatest player ever.
*PERIOD.*
That being said, people like Gary Payton, Joe Dumars, and even Mitch Richmond have put the locks on Jordan throughout his career. Some people just match up good against you defensively. There are some players that just have your number. Like how Scottie Pippen shut down Magic Johnson in the 1991 NBA Finals because Jordan could not guard him. Pippen was bigger, stronger, and longer than Michael. GP just had a bead on Michael. It wasn't like they had to play each other that much though.
What is being lost in what GP said was that he had a larger body of work guarding John Stockton than Michael Jordan so it would be tougher to guard a guy you are going to see 8-10 times a season versus a guy you may only see twice at best in a regular season. Think about it. Outside of the 1996 NBA Finals GP has never had to guard Michael Jordan more than twice in a season. He my have only played against him head-to head a dozen times more or less throughout his career in the regular season where as with Stockton he may have had to guard him 40-60 times throughout his career if you include the playoffs. He wasn't taking a dig at Michael. He's just being honest.
So hopefully this can wrap up this debate.
Jordantards don't seem to understand that.
My eyes don't lie to me
Wilt and Russell both have better accomplishments than Michael.
@ Ser Uresto OSCAR, WILT, RUSSELL and LEBRON are in that discussion with MJ . John Stockton may not be on the top 10 point guard list anymore.
D2K Prime Stats like the ones you posted don’t mention how Jordan took more than twice as many Shots as Stockton. You don’t know what you’re talking about
Stockton was once called by Wilt the greatest player inch for inch of his time and one of the best ever!
I think the key word is "fundamentally sound." Stockton was all business. Payton knows what he's talking about.
i agree with this...cause stockon was able to beat u in many ways...whether it was scoring, passing, stealing, picking, whatever...u knew mostly what jordan was going to do scoring-wise and he would do it anyway.
ESPN needs more blondes with legs on their shows. Less Stephen A Smith.
Who cares. just more leggy blondes!
Charissa Thompson
Death By Ostrich more idiotic comments
nah. Just truth son!
I actually believe Payton, in the 96' finals Payton basically shut MJ down for the most part. If he would have guarded MJ for the entire series instead of guarding him in like game 4 and beyond then the series probably would have went to 7 games
if you call 27.3 pts a game and 4.3 assists bad for Jordan , I might give you that . The bulls had 2 blowouts where jordan didn't play in the 4th quarter so , his average dropped. Payton on the other hand shot 42% from the feild avg 18& 7. I think JORDAN won that matchup.
Daniel Parker It's not the point totals that matter to see who shut who down. Tell me that Payton had to take more shots than Jordan did to make his points when GP was guarding him and I'll agree with you. Otherwise it's about how many more takes GP forced Jordan into that he missed as opposed to the ones he made. Yeah he may have averaged 27 a game but when he's taking 17+ shots and free throws to make them then he's definitely missing more than he's making.
Mathew Arseneau The PISTONS(TEAM EFFORT ) are the closest thing to shutting Jordan down. Gary Payton never shut 6 time finals MVP Michael Jordan down. how does this sound "I shut you down and you only scored 27 points....lol. C'MON MAN
Gary never shut down MJ dude don't make me get the stats for you either you can look it up on your own game 1 for instance Jordan had 28 gary had 13 yeah that's shutting him down alright
Dano7396 you just proved you didn't even watch the '96 finals. george karl didn't even put GP on jordan until the middle of game 3 when jordan was going off. after that for the remainder of the series payton guarded him. since you guys like looking at stats, here's some food for thought: game 4: 23 points on 6 for 19. game 5: 26 points 11-22 and then game 6: 22 points on 5-19 shooting. those stretch of games was the best defense ever played on jordan in the finals, keep in mind jordan usually averages like 40 points in the finals. GP deserves a lot of credit for that series. shame that seattle really had no chance to win after game 3 though.
Lol how is someone who didn't guard Micheal and John gonna tell a guy who did guard them which one is tougher to guard?
I’m a Chicagoan and I grew up watching MJ. He’s the GOAT BUT.... He wasn’t unstoppable. There were some amazing players that came along in the league that didn’t get the same chances as MJ. Our Bulls teams were loaded with talent in the 90s. We had incredibly deep teams which enabled MJ to do what he did best...score. He didn’t have to do too much on those old Bulls teams. He wasn’t carrying scrubs to the Championship every year. I believe GP because he played the game.
I don't get why people are trippin over Gary Payton's words. Saying that John Stockton was the most difficult player to guard, for him.. That's not the same thing as saying John Stockton is better than Michael Jordan. Just like when Kobe was asked which player in the league was toughest for him to guard, he said Carmelo Anthony. Obviously he wasn't saying Melo was the games best player.. Just that for him that's who he struggled the most against. Every player is different.
Didn't Kobe say that T-Mac was the one who gave him the most problems?
Santosh Sivasankaran he may have said that years ago, but some time later he did another interview and he said Carmelo Anthony was toughest for him to guard
yep , he also said Carmelo.. too
He also mentioned Iverson too I think.
can't really argue with Gary u know.. :s he played the nba, i didn't.. lol. but yea, stockton was seriously a though competitor. one of the best point guards ever. (coming from a jordan fan)
G88 I hate when commentators who NEVER played the game question the opinions of players. I also can't argue with Gary Payton, great player who actually guarded Stockton.
kxsoldier Yes, exactly! What we can say is that they both mainly played as Point Guard. So it makes more sense he'd pick Stockton.
Has anyone else on the panel defended MJ and Stockton? No? Then it looks like Payton is the only one qualified to speak on the subject.
respect to gary payton for going against the status quo and giving a honest and thought out answer regardless of reprucussions and stil ltop 30 t every play
I swear i hate when ppl who never played a basketball game ever in their life try to argue with someone who played or plays for the NBA
Payton was the Defensive player of the year back in 95 or 96. Obviously he earned that so he would kno who was harder to guard..bows or not..He Never said that Jordan wasn't a better player
I AGREE With The Glove!!!!! HE Had To Guard BOTH Of Them, NOT US!!!!!
"Harder to Guard" and "Harder to Stop" are two different things.
Fred Doug Even if GP stop Stockton by scoring he still can set his teammates
Fred Doug means the exact same thing actually.
it really doesn't tho. Allen Iverson might be harder to "guard" because he's so small and quick, where as Kobe might be easier to guard but harder to "stop."
lol
Fred Doug W
It's ridiculous that its blasphemy to say anything contrary or challenging about MJ. It's like your not drinking the cool aide if say anything different...
MJ was one of the greatest players to ever step on a court and I don't think Payton would say it was easy guarding him. However, the Bulls ran a lot of isolation plays where Jordan would use his quick first step and crossover to beat his defender. OTOH, Stockton and Malone were probably the greatest practitioners ever of the pick and roll. Payton probably found it harder to defend against the various possibilities that can arise from an effective pick and roll (where either of the two players might score) than to play man to man against a single player, even when that player was Jordan.
change one of the greatest, TO UNQUESTIONABLY THE GREATEST, MJ GOAT
Isolation plays? What year are you referring to, 1988? Do you know the Bulls implemented the motion offense "Triangle" in 1990??? You missed EVERYTHING.
The most jordan ever dropped on payton was 45:
www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199702020SEA.html
He went 19-28 from the field.
Stockton dropped 25 pts, 19 assists, and 5 steals once:
www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199202270UTA.html
He also had a 23-16-5 game that same year on payton.
I agree with payton. It must hurt much more to be out-tricked by stockton than to be overpowered by jordan.
Plus, payton was known for his ability to steal and assist the ball. He was really good at it. But guess what: The guy he faced 9 times a season was better. About 7000 assists and 800 steals better over his career.
Just had to check out what gary's best games against jordan and stockton where:
Gary had 14 points 14 assists and 12 boards but shot just 3-16 from the floor against jordan in this one:
www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199703180CHI.html
Gary just destroyed jordan in his 7th game back from retirement with 32 points, 15 assists and 7 boards. (Jordan shot 5-26):
www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200111110WAS.html
Gary stuck it to stock with 35 points, 11 assists, 10 boards, and 6 steals in this playoff game:
www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200005030SEA.html
Just think about this.... With no Threes Stockton caused 61 points in the game you mentioned against Gary....
guarding stockton was essentially guarding two people (Malone).. very hard to guard during pick and roll play, makes sense why the glove had such a difficult time. Stockton is underrated.
get ypur stats right baby!
Payton played against him, you others didnt, end of story.
I wore 12 in high school and middle school because of Stockton. I fell in love with the game because of Stockton. He wasn’t the most athletic but he got the job done. He played his heart out and set records while being one of least athletic guys on the court. Hence why I liked him. He proved that heart and fundamentals can win you games.
*Insert Jordan looking at tablet laughing*.gif
Stockton is easily the most underrated NBA player of all time. He'd have two championships if it wasn't for the fact that his teams ran into the one man that doesn't lose in the finals.
It's true. Payton only had to guard Jordan for a couple stretches per game. Hersey, or Detlef were primary defenders against him. Payton however was put up against one of the best PG in history that is Stockton.
What makes so hard to guard Stockton is because he's so deceptive and never does 1 on 1, because it's stupid. So you are not only guarding him but you are guarding against the system, pick n roll, pretty much entire offense that revolves around Stockton. Think about guarding him against pick n roll, or when he's leading the fastbreak with a steal(which he was awesome at). It's a nightmare if you had to do that for 40 min per game. OH, Stockton also was durable.
Do NOT underestimate Stockton. He's arguably one of the smartest player that's ever played the game.
Y'all seen stocktons highlights? Bruh wasn't put on the dream team for nothing.
Alexis Anguiano it's like GP says good luck guarding him especially with Malone by his side. He is one of the best point guards to ever play the game. No one including Chris Paul will touch his assists record.
Alexis Anguiano it's like GP says good luck guarding him especially with Malone by his side. He is one of the best point guards to ever play the game. No one including Chris Paul will touch his assists record.
Oh this is hilarious! Payton actually had to guard Stockton on the floor...no one else there did!
Can't argue with him because he did play against both of them, but it's very interesting for him to say that. To break down why Payton said Stockton was tougher than MJ. He said, "We were more athletic than him, we were mad because he would set picks because we thought that was dirty." He also called him more fundamentally sound and he was. He and other players hated John Stockton because he knew the game more than them. Stockton was like that kid at school who always get straight A's and read books a lot while the cool kids didn't care but jealous on the inside. John Stockton was a basketball nerd and made him a basketball maestro.
i can see where gary payton is coming from.
in his opinion, it was harder to guard stockton because stockton would consistently shoot 50% or more against payton and at the same time drop 10+ assists while doing it.
but in a head to head match-up between jordan and payton, payton would make sure that jordan would shoot below 50%. sure jordan would still have good games against him but payton thought that it was easier to limit jordan's production than it was to limit stockton's.
To everyone dissing on The Glove, listening to what the man is saying!
He isn't saying Stockton was a better player than Jordan, he was saying that Stocktons game gave him more trouble.
Jordan was a known point scorer. Stockton was the best at assisting yet could also shoot and make the layup. You had to guard alot more than a drive or shot because he was so good at getting the ball to Malone for finishing.
MJ would score 35 odd points and 5 assists = 45 points. Stockton = 17 points, 15 assists = 47. There's not much difference on points impact on the game.
Fun fact: The difference between John Stockton and the second leading assister in NBA history (J-Kidd) is roughly the same as the difference between J-Kidd and the 13TH leading assister. All time legend
Gary could absolutely guard Jordan. Keep in mind, when the Bulls faced the Sonics in the 1996 Finals, Peyton was assigned to guard Pippen, not Jordan, for the first three games. When the Bulls went up 3-0, the Sonics changed up and finally put Peyton on Jordan. Jordan shot less than 32 percent for two of the last three games, including only 26 percent in the clinching Game Six, which the Bulls won largely due to Dennis Rodman's defense and rebounding.
“You guys didn’t play against him, I did” The Glove didn’t say Stockton was better than Jordan, just said he was harder for HIM to guard. Hall of Famers opinion. Also the last guard to win DPOY. End of discussion.
How y'all gonna tell GP who was harder for him to guard? It's all about styles and matchups. Learn some hoops. Don't matter how great of a defender you are, theirs certain players who are gonna give you more fits than others. That's just facts.
People don't often bring up Stockton because he never won any titles, seldom got into fights, wasn't a trash talker, didn't do a lot of promoting himself and endorsements, and he played in a boring place on a relatively boring team. He also wasn't a dunker with crazy athletic hops. He was quiet relative to other guards in the league who were also All-Stars. But, his team continually made it into the playoffs, always had winning seasons, he owns two of the top all-time records in the league, and he was great at everything. There were plenty of nights he put up thirty if he had to, or shut down an opposing guard, or created passing lanes that got the opposing team into foul trouble early. Most casual watchers don't pay attention to the game that happens away from the game, which is where he was better than everyone. He also stayed remarkably healthy throughout his career, stayed grounded, and never disparaged his organization or fellow players over money or staffing changes or trades. He was pure class.
To all the non-NBA players on the panel, Gary is right, he's been an NBA player that played both guys, he's just talking about the hardest players HE'S had to guard. He didn't say Stockton was a better player, he said the hardest for HIMSELF to guard.
@Max Romero-what do Rings got to do with this discussion?
Why would you argue with Gary Payton?
John Stockton One of top 5 best players ever.
dsuchmiel Did you hit your head?
dsuchmiel John stockton is #1 all-time in assists and steals.
espn.go.com/nba/history/leaders
The numbers don't lie. :-)
that must mean Jason Kidd is top 5 too. Use your brain
I can tell Gary is from Oakland just by the way he talks.
I saw both Michael Jordan play and John Stockton. I understand what Gary Payton is saying. You could stop Michael Jordan from scoring once in a while. John Stockton seemed like he always had ten points, ten assist, and 2 or 3 steals. Add those points up and it adds up to be killed softly. 10 points, 10 assists and 2 or 3 steals is a 30+ point night, and he did that pretty much every night of his career. You knew the Jazz were going to pick-and-roll, you could game plan for it, but you couldn't stop it.
I think a lot of people would be surprised who Michael Jordan says who was his hardest person to guard.
I believe Gary, Stockton was a hell of a player a complete point guard, that's hard to guard in any sense of the word
I remember hearing Isaiah Thomas saying that the Piston's preference was TO MAKE KARL MALONE BEAT THEM. The last thing they wanted was for Stockton to have the ball making decisions. How good do you have to be for a team to choose to have the ball in the hands of the man who has scored more points than everybody except Kareem instead of having to defend you?
Mfs ride Jordan cocktail
Excuse me, John Stockton is the all time leader in steals and assists, who cares about DPOY?! Stockton is one of the best PGs ever. So don't disrespect Stockton's skills