Have Some Gifts of the Holy Spirit Ceased? (Frank Macchia)
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- Опубліковано 27 тра 2014
- seedbed.com
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In this video, theologian Frank D. Macchia charitably discusses both positions on what can be a divisive topic-the so-called "charismatic gifts" debate. He seeks to understand and accurately articulate the position that the charismatic gifts have ceased, but ends up arguing for their continuation in the church.
Jack Deere wrote a book titled "Surprised By The Spirit"
He writes that if you take a new Christian and put them in a cell alone with only their Bible to read, they would never come up with a cessationist doctrine
Great thought, thanks.
God bless you 🙏
It's a great and correct view about the gifts of the holy spirit
I'm amazed at how many on the charismatic side of the coin do not understand the fallacy of idealism in their view of potential cessationist repentance.
Q. Why do we have seminaries? Why are leaders in the Church prepared the same way as are doctors and lawyers and other professions? Why even do such have their own sophisticated nomenclature mostly unintelligible to the masses?
A. Is it all a methodology not only preparing the professional for intelligent interaction among their colleagues, but to produce assurances in the minds of clients and those whom they serve?
Q. Why does each denomination spell out in detail the tenets of their theology and all possible doctrines?
A. Is it not to provide peace and sensibility of mind to their leaders, as well as seemingly concrete answers to their congregants?
What if I were to approach my pastor and ask them whatnot about a certain doctrine, and the response would be, "Neither I nor our church is really sure about that one. We really don't know"?
Or, "Well we always taught such and such regarding that, but everyone has concluded they've always been in error, so now we're saying . . . ."
What if my cessationist pastor this Sunday would step into the pulpit and begin by saying, "Hey, everyone, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but I and our denomination have all along been entirely wrong regarding ...."
What about those in the audience of that announcement? In what state would they be subsequently found? How would they handle their relationships with those who they've been sharing for decades about their church and beliefs?
And how is it that all the different cessationist denominations disagree about dozens of doctrines other than the Gifts one? How is it that all the different full gospel denominations disagree about dozens of doctrines . . . .?
When will we the children of God humble ourselves before God Almighty and confess that whatever we know that is Truth, we know not due our studies but because God revealed it in our inner person by writing it upon the tablets of our heart? AND what He did NOT reveal we humanistically filled in the blanks with our own surmisings, conjectures, inferences, etc., even at time skullduggeries, so that we would not appear ignorant to others and in our own egotistical, hubristic eyes.
When will we all admit that the Heavenly Father has not given ANY of us all the correct answers; to prevent us from being even more arrogant than we've become even with the tensions He has instilled between us by leaving us each and all with some blanks?
Duh, people of God!
Can we be realists at the risk of our crushing the fragile faiths of those who look up to us, directing them instead to look up to the One who knows it all in mysteries?
Christian arrogance in our pulpits has fueled the same in our pews. "By their fruits [those we proselytize] you shall know them." Let us not continue to teeter on the edge of the precipice whereupon the Pharisees of Mt.23:14-15 were found.
God has ordained cessationists; God has ordained charismatics; God has ordained holiness/Pentecostals.
[...for so it seemed good in Your Sight." - ed. (and Jesus)]
I believe that you have hit on some important points, and maybe I am reading my own interpretation into what you said, but to me, this is a spiritual battleground issue. Men and their perceived ownership of ministry want to control the beliefs, conduct, and influence of the people they perceive to belong to them, "their flock". But, the sheep are not their flock, and while they say they are protecting them, the truth is, they are using them to support their own agenda. I totally appreciate what you shared because it is the voice of reason which I hope helps "the flock" to find the truth.
Informanative on the preliminary world views that cause division and helpful to those that want to actualy dialogue.
It's not continued but rediscovered ...that alone tells a great deal ....
Usually God just Baptizes them and gives them a gift such as speaking in tongues as he did me. Most Charismatics either received a supernatural gift in their prayer time or sought it out and received it through prayer with others. And than subsequently given the left foot of fellowship at times from their denomination. Even cessationest John MacArthur unbeknowingly had a "charismatic tongue speaking Christian" on his staff.
All nine Gifts have both a corporate and a personal aspect. Selah.
I do appreciate the video. However my concern is that we cannot try to reason these things out. God found it important enough to let us know about these gifts, about His giving them to the body of Christ in order to build and mature the Church as a whole. You would think that if it was important enough to let us know about the Gifts and His intentions for their use that He would also let us know if they were rescinded, discontinued. There is no where in the Scriptures that says anything like that. To be honest I do not listen to persons like MacArthur because he ultimately is an unbeliever. He has limited the Holy One of Israel (and thus The Holy One of the Church). God hasn't thrown out His tools, we shouldn't either.
Revisiting this video and listening again: perhaps of further ecumenical help would be for the charismatic church to 1) clean up their nomenclature, and 2) tone back hyperbolic claims.
The "Baptism of the HG/HS" is a phrase nonexistent in the Word, having been compiled by man from several facets, limited by Greek and English languages [and translation problems thereof], poorly composed.
There are numerous acts of baptisms (cleansings usually along with a holy replacement) available by subsequent-to-salvation Grace.
[Needed is to] Eliminate the phrase "Spirit-FILLED" Christian, since such fillings are momentary and are available to anyone God chooses: It's not a state of being.
Recognize that for the vast majority, the so-called Baptism of the Holy Spirit does not automatically include such as Paul writes of himself and Timothy in 2Tim1:7, neither whatever other superfluous claims that have become "catchphrases." It, the charismaric 2nd blessing if you will, is the Christian being clothed with a garment of praise "upon" (Acts 1:8, 2:3) them, PERIOD (though in rare cases it's given along with an additional Grace). This should explain the rise of contemporary worship music [a good thing], a lack of power in most cases, a lack of theological understanding, a lack of holy living, a lack of manifested Gifts, a lack of Fruits, etc.
Otherwise, how can the cessationist be expected to consider their lack if the charismatic is unwilling to admit to theirs?? [I'm analogously reminded of how people are instructed to not look directly into the eyes of aggressive road ragers: it challenges rebellion.]
How will someone [the charismatic] know to seek more if they mistakenly believe they're possessors already??
[And for the biblically astute, I, contrary to some, contend that Isa. 61:3 belongs with v. 1-2 in referencing this present dispensation, also chain referencing 59:13 -- though I suppose it doesn't necessarily have to be so in order to use the garment phrase as I did.]
[Edit additions.]
Perhaps best, terminology wise, would to simply refer to the Acts 2:3 additional Grace as the Holy Ghost (sic) upon us. (Using S(s)pirit for the Grace of justification; reverting to the KJV verbage duality.)
The gifts of speaking in tongues and of prophecying ENDED in biblical times:
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." I Corinthians 13:8
"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." II Corinthians 11:4
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." II Corinthians 11:13-15
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Spaseebo The context speaks of the second coming of Christ:
and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless. YLT
1 Corinthians 13:10
They haven't ceased or ended.
I agee @ Louie Dee
I guess knowledge also ceased since it says where there be knowledge it shall vanish away
We are still in biblical times.
When perfection comes is the operative phrase.... THEN those gifts will cease because we will know Jesus face to face, not through a lens darkly as we see now. Just because we have the "words" of God does not mean we understand the WORD of God.