What is an Anti-VILLAIN?
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2023
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We've all heard of Anti-Heroes, everyone's favorite unrepentant "good guy". But what about their opposite? What about everyone's favorite "bad guy"? They aren't talked about nearly as often, but there is a word for it. They're called: Anti-Villains.
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Hi :)
Look , i am a big fan of your channel and that is partly because of your skeptism and your ability to jidge characters from different perspectives .
Let me offer you my own perspective :
i think that the perfect example of anti villans are villans that trying to be evil or scary but can't succeed and allwase getting beaten up by the good guys in the most homorous ways . Anti villains for me are a pathetic villain that insted of causing problams to others he accidently cause problams to himself , even go as far as asking the heroes for help and enjoying their company before going back into pretending to be an evil villain.
Examples for ACTUAL anti villans whould be :
the ice king , plankton , doctor doofenshmirtz , gru , hater (wander over yonder ), mega-mind etc ...
I know that you look at these villains and say : these are not anti villains , they are the perfect steriotypes for trying to be the most redicuesly evil as possible .
and you are right to think that being redicuesly evil in parodies or children cartoons don't live any place for personallity or something different , and when it's a childish drama then these type of villains whould remane recuring antagonists with no personality . but when you use these types of "redicuesly evil" villains in less dramatic evil and more philosophical comedy , you find moments where these villains are not evil , and even doing good . Perry the platipus and dr doofenshmirtz are protrayed as the best friends in the show "phinias and pherb" and if you saw them when they are helping to save the world tougether , you whould guess that one supposed to be an evil scientist and the other the agent who sent to stop him . Whould you really call characters like him villains ? Whould you really put them in the same category as the joker ? Good moral or bad moral ,your version of "anti villains" stay the same , a terrfiying character that succeed both at doing bad things and make the good characters realize it is something to fear from and fight agianst . Think outside the box
All of this talk about heros, anti heros, villain, and anti villain made me think of series called Worm by Wildbow have you ever read or looked into it? It could be said to be mix of Marvel and DC but with strange realistic twist/explanations on why things work the way they do in hero store. In this story they have the unwritten rules a few being no guns, no killing of other powered individuals, no attacking people at home or out of costume, no sharing attempts to find out someone secret identity. This all based on if you are at top or bottom of the world in power as those who make the rules don't have to obey them.
I think you put your add twice in the video
I actually didn't watch harry potter so it's like being in a coma since 2005 lol
I think Dr. Doofenshmirtz from Phineas and Ferb is a textbook “anti-villain.” Only technically a bad guy, but is still a caring father and best friends with Perry the Platypus. Whenever a real threat comes around, he’s almost always on the side of good.
Was about to say the same thing
"You've done more damage trying to be good than you ever did while evil"
With the explanation my first thought was him lmao
You see, he soo incompetent, that by being in evil side, it makes the people on that side less competent overall, so he is actually a hero, an unintentional hero.
Yep, his goals are bad, often succeeds in committing at least 1 crime, but always fails, never does significant harm, or anything that could really be considered evil 😂
And has ethics, even when another version of him does take over the... (I forgot if it was world or country) he still ends up going against that.
Anti-Hero= Someone not so heroic who is still on the side of good.
Anti-Villain=Someone not so villainous who is still on the side of evil.
Dreadwing from TF Prime immediately comes to mind. He had all the qualities of an autobot, but who just happened to be a Decepticon.
Examples:
Anti-Heros = Robin Hood, Jack Sparrow, Wolverine, Deadpool, Catwomen, Sandman.
Anti-Villians = Yzma, Loki, Agent Smith, Dr.Doofenshmirtz, Harley Quinn, Mega-Mind, Snape.
I change this list because people seem to get offended of it 🤣
@@TnS260 wasn't Snape revealed to be a spy for Dumbledore
@@NoOne-wz2ht Loki at least his variant became good in the Loki show. I'm thinking they're Anti-Villains that transitioned into Anti-Heroes. Or they're right in the middle between them.
@@lilglitchboi7259 Not really, he start cooking meth to make money for his family before he died of cancer, however people and bad situations eventually got in his way leading to him having to kill people.
Gus Fring has done some evil things throughout the series, and has not done much to redeem himself. He has sold methamphetamines which have ruined many lives, is responsible for the death of many innocent people, and is a drug kingpin. All of these traits show that Gus Fring is not an anti-villain. He is purely a villain.
Magneto in the Marvel comic universe, kept flipping between Villain, anti-villain, anti-hero and even hero in a few stories.
A wonderfully complex character in many ways.
Yea, I was hoping to see him mentioned here
Same with Venom
Doctor doom in the comics is actually an anti-villain too, he wants to rule the world because he believes he can make it better
He’s the first one I thought of
@@Xamto7And he's right
Amon is my favorite "villain" of both series. The creative team behind him went above and beyond to make him charismatic af
Amon? From LOTM?
I think they improved with Zaheer. He had a better point, fought against the actual opressors of the people, and I haven't met a single fan that disliked him.
He was great until they took off his mask and made his character nonsensical for the sake of one more twist
@@egilz No, from LOTV lol
@@egilz TLOK
I absolutely love the "polite villain" - someone who you meet at first doing some good thing, saving a kitten, whatever, then at some point their actual goal becomes clear.
One of my all time favorite anti-villains has got to be Smee from Peter pan. In almost every rendition, he's upbeat, friendly, lovable, but ultimately very loyal to the pirates, specifically Captain Hook. Really, it's just his loyalties that come across villainous. In the Disney animated version, when Captain Hook is trying to trick Tinkerbell, he suggests he will simply sail away, and Smee is immediately on board with that. No desire for revenge, no need for conflict. He's just Smee, and he's there for his buddies. Who, it just so happens, are bloodthirsty pirates.
My favorite polite villain is Adrian Veidt. Surprised it wasn't mentioned in the video.
My favorite polite villain is Adrian Veidt. Surprised it wasn't mentioned in the video.
I absolutely hate a certain polite villain: Aizen from the anime "Bleach". When he was introduced, he was the nicest one out of all the commanders, but it turns out that he just hypnotised everyone. His weapon enables absolute hynotism and the worst part is that that's probably possible without even unlocking the weapon's potential.
Bleach's weapons are called "Zanpakuto" and have two forms: Shikai and Bankai. The Shikai is the form they usually fight with and it's essentially just a magic sword. The Bankai is the true form of the Zanpakuto and usually involves summoning a huge something.
What I'm trying to say is that Bleach's powerlevels are fucking worthless. Aizen can just make you stab your allies.
@rickrose6881 captain hook wasn't ever really any more a villain than Peter Pan himself
I feel like antihero, and even more so, antivillain, are missing pieces that make up "middle steps" between hero and villain, and once you consider all four you start to see it more as a spectrum
I feel for the anti-villains, they are overlooked.
It's what character is right for the story the 'no good or evil' view on writing is a limiting one. And Thanos sucks because his entire thesis to solve his issue is flawed because god forbit he make a universe of plenty with god powers.
@@shenotskiWell, he is a Titan or whatever the deformed eternals are called
Eh, they aren’t really useful for morality, they are just terms for story archetypes
@@kstar1489 They are useful, its just people are so high on antiheroes.
I think a great example of an anti-villain is Suguru Geto from the jujutsu kaisen movie. He helps his followers with their troubles but in the end is using them to collect curses from them and kill all the non sorcerer humans. This fits either the well intentioned extremist as he is trying to make a world where sorcerers live without fighting to save regular people after witnessing the death of all his friends.
YES
Yeah , but it would probably be better if he had more time to show us what he is willing are is not willing to do to achieve that goal
We know he is willing to kill a student sorcerer to get a powerfull curse
But would he try to kill someone he wants to protect if that person didn´t let him achieve hes goals?Like gojo or even shoko
But its to late to get those questions
Bondrewd from Made in Abyss is a fantastic anti-villain. He's unfailingly polite and cheerful towards everyone no matter what, but has made a career out of nightmarish scientific research built on the pain, suffering and death of countless people. Even so, his research is immensely beneficial to the world as a whole, and he feels nothing but love and admiration towards those he's sacrificed in his pursuits.
light from death note
@@CiciChessNah, he is just crazy
@@ajente2o254 my point is the methods he uses seem like he is doing good but he is evil.
@@CiciChess Oh yeah, good point
Yes. And I really like the fact that he's sacrificed even his very original self for his own purpose. He's so determined and consistent.
I don't know if he's mentioned here, but Bowser is literally only evil if he's the only threat present. Even then, he's happy to play sports and race with people. As soon as any bigger threat comes along, such as the shroobs or cackletta, he's immediately on the side of the Mario brothers.
He's smarter than people give him credit for. I genuinely think he just kidnaps Peach for fun at this point, like a sort of "Hey Mario, come check out my radical obstacle course!"
More like begrudgingly on their side but yeah. If anyone's gonna conquer the world, it's gonna be him and him only.
In Paper Mario: The Origami King it was Bowser's minions that were turned into Folded Soldiers by King Olly, plus Bowser's castle-island was wrecked.
Not to mention Scissors sliced up Bowser Junior, which at that point made Bowser's revenge personal. So he sided with Mario as the best way to get it, as he knew Mario also had some scores to settle with Olly.
He even tells Olly that if even he, the Koopa King, couldn't beat Mario, then there was no way in hell Olly would win.
Hero: "you're helping us!?"
Villain: " well yeah, I can't rule the world if there isn't one there."
@@TheAwesomeCouch This reminds me of Eggman in some games
Another great example of an anti-villain is Megamind, a “villain” who’s former backstory is pretty tragic knowing he basically coped with being ostracized along with his fish friend for being literally different from his classmates, and that makes me relate to him more immensely.
Him becoming a predicted “villain” was one thing, Megamind becoming both a hero and an anti-villain is something else entirely. I love that about him.
For me he can't really be an anti villain. He tried to destroy Metroman and proceeded to terrorize the city after he was gone. Once he was bored he created another villain in hopes he could have a new playmate. All he did was clean up his own mess by the end of the movie. It was a good movie I just think calling him an anti-villain is a bit disingenuous.
@@selfimprovement5873 You forgot one key arc of Megamind: his “accidental” journey as a hero. Because he was a “villain”, he struggled with the idea that you can just be evil without a hero fighting you all the time, further diminishing the fact that he isn’t as bad as he seems, another thing that throws off his villainous persona further was the supposed love interest of Metro Man, Roxanne, who not only is disgusted by the disappearance of Metro Man (who, BTW…had his OWN personal journey), but was undeniably making Megamind more and more like a normal, breathing being who’s just misunderstood and coped with being the “monster” of the story until she showed him a different side to life while he was under disguise as a regular human being, further conflicting him of the fact that at the same time he is mentoring the “hero”, except this hero, for a lack of a better word, was an incel who was harassing Roxanne unlike Megamind, who just disguised himself as someone who he, yes, MEGAMIND, HE subconsciously yearns to become: a normal guy, rather than obsessing over a girl like the so-called hero he was mentoring. All that changed when the hero he was mentoring becomes a villain of the story by kidnapping Roxanne, and he’d had to track down not just Roxanne but Metro Man to see if he can stop the villainous “hero” chasing down Megamind and destroying the city out of pure rage of rejection by Roxanne, it didn’t worked out in both Roxanne and Megamind’s favor, obviously, as Metro Man had already left that life behind. Yet, Metro Man made that exact same dilemma to Megamind, but absolutely plainly, to be the balance of the story, you must heed the call of a turn of the journey regardless of your past life and your past “mistakes” (because sure, Megamind was lying about his identity to Roxanne, he was tricking a guy into being a hero of the story and let a villain loose instead, but I can’t lie, him just wanting to fix the problem instead of letting it loose was a real positive trait of his), in a way, it’s an amazing twist of fate that Metro Man was basically like a longtime friend to Megamind, knew of his wrongdoings as kids and tried to reconcile HIS issues, despite how selfish their relationships were.
In the end, it’s not about whether or not you like somebody or deem them as worthy of fault in every single corners, but rather, respect their integrity to push through the journey not as a stubborn fool who clings to the past and blame everybody else but their own, but to grow into the future as a better person who knows that their own actions DO in fact have consequences and must LIVE UP to it, if that type of anti-villainous journey to redemption isn’t inspiring, then I don’t know what is. The only thing an anti-villain looks up and see, is their own distant stars, and Megamind sure as hell made a grand entrance with that!
I was going to say dr. Evil from Austin Powers
Megamind is merely a victim of bullying. He was just unlucky to be picked on.
Metro Man could have suffered a very similar fate, he was just lucky enough to be liked for his being-different.
@@Tribalfan88x Exactly, I wasn’t letting both Metro Man AND Megamind’s responsibilities and actions go unnoticed, good or bad in others and theirs perspective, especially Megamind who “allegedly” was able to kill Metro Man and get away with it within the entire city’s eyes, but that’s the thing, Metro Man ISN’T dead and Roxanne was probably the news reporter that alluded the public thereafter Megamind became a hero, to the fact that Metro Man really isn’t dead after all, just retired, but we never get a further explanation other than Metro Man becoming an actual civilian like Superman as Clarke Kent.
For Megamind, sure, people don’t want to think that his position was rightfully earned after he “killed” Metro Man, but if the city public had a choice, I’d think they rather take a former villain who reformed themselves into heroes than it is a “hero” who ended up being the villain that threaten the safety of everybody, it really is just that straightforward, even if people had the absolute right’s to distrust Megamind and his actions.
anti hero => behaves like a bad guy but is ultimately good.
anti villain => behaves like a good guy but is ultimately a vilain.
i've seen a few actually, it's mostly the type "willing to break a few eggs for the greater good in their eyes" that i've seen explored. Like the vilain in Moonknight (tv show)
I feel like Anti Villains are mostly characters doing the right thing the wrong way. Like theyre not pure evil, but to reach their goals they have to hurt people or sacrifice other. Ex: Thanos, Killmonger, Ra’s Al Ghul
@@darkvioletskull Emphasis on "doing the right thing, the wrong way"
"Making the mother of all omelettes here, Jack! Can't fret over every egg!!!"
I looked up what Anti-Villains are used for and it said Anti-Heroes are to make a character complex while Anti-Villains are meant to make people question their morality. Like if a Robin Hood story was from the perspective of a knight Robin Hood would technically be an Anti-Villain, he's breaking the laws and is not above killing but he has a code and gives to the poor of a corrupt system so it would make the Knight and possibly the reader question on if they're really doing the right thing
Anti-Villians and Anti-heroes are by far one of my favorite tropes solely because of how these charachters can easily flip and change roles while forcing a audience to question their own morality alongside the charachters. The most important bit is that these charachters create a difficult challenge for the Protagonists, the question of "What if we are wrong" that is exceeded by the catharsis and possblty of a twist revealing that the Protagonists were in the wrong.,
I think it's because anti-heroes and anti-vilains are close to what heroes and vilains are to 'grown humans'.
When we're young, we tend to see the world in two ways : Good and Bad. It's either black or white.
But we never question if Good, is truly that Good... Or if Bad is truly that Bad ?
And when we grow, we discover things. We learn from people. And most people you will meet, will make you realize that they weren't as bad as you thought they would be... just as people you expected to be good, were, in fact, not that gentle or kind.
Show to a young men Deadpool. He'll see him as a crazy dude who kills people, and has no moral. Wait for that young men to grow, and he will start understanding why this character isn't that evil deep down.
They represent the real world, I say. Sure we still have the whites and blacks, but the real world is full of various shade of grays, so to say.
It's probably why the audience become more intrigued by their story more, even if they do root for the morally good hero.
They also serve as challenges for our heroes as many would agree, on a fundamental level and this is just a very interesting story no matter which way it goes. Personally I like it when antivillains (or antiheroes) become the hero's mentor or guardian in some way, similarly how long john silver became a semi father and mentor figure to jim hawkins in treasure planet.
"Oh you are a villain alright, just not an ANTI one!"
"Oh yeah? And what's the difference?"
"INTENTION!!"
😂
I think the right word is "MOTIVATION". Cause that almost rhymed as "PRESENTATION".
I think Luke Castellan from Percy Jackson fits this trope very well. He has an altruistic objective to ensure a better future to half-blood kids by making sure they stop being the god's playthings and that their god parent is actually there but both his goals (defeat the gods with Kronos and bringing the second titan era) and his methods (sacrificing and manipulating other half-blood, most that are kids) are evil.
Isn’t that an anti hero?
@@It_Is_Oylenox no because the end goal is objectvally bad as well as the means, he has good intentions but that's it.
thats an antihero, someone with a good cause and does bad things to get it
an anti-villain is the opposite, they dont act evil but their ultimate goal is still evil
In my opinion, Issac from Castlevania can be considered an anti-villian. He was polite and gave people a chance to leave him alone. When they continued to challenge him or refused to let him pass through the city, he would kill them or reanimate them as monsters. His goals did change later.
You've heard of "anti-hero", now its time for "anti-villain"...
and now anti-plot
@fire_ii9550 we have that already, it's called bad writing
@@supremeking2020We have it in spades sadly.
@@supremeking2020Right 💀
Among us
Best anti villain I’ve seen done is probably Mr.Freeze from 90’s Batman series. Some versions of Magneto also may apply here, the best written versions of Magneto really makes you understand his pov
MR. Freeze is kind of a middle ground
He does bad things for good reasons - Anti Hero
But he VERY often gives into desperation and feigns good thing for the worst reasons - Anti Villain
@@Nami8302_OwO those things should be flipped. An anti villain can be encapsulated by the statement “Don’t you understand? I’m doing this for the right reasons!” For Mr Freeze it comes back to doing evil things like stealing and killing to save his wife Nora.
An anti hero comes down to doing the good thing not out of an expectation of doing the right thing, but because often an outside attachment forcing you to do the good thing that normally would be against your nature. Think Mad Max.
the "I won't let anyone rule the world but me" mentality really tends to blur the lines between anti/villain, then you also have the whole 'survivor who has to kill everyone to make it out' trope which blurs anti(hero/villain) in a veil of neutrality. I think my favorite antivillain would be Dr Doom, because the one time he actually takes over the world, he turns it into a utopia.
Yea I mean magneto can you not feel bad for him having to watch his dad get shot, having to kill his kids, best comrades leaving him, governments being racist to him, I mean the f4 literally left dr doom to die
I've never known what an anti-villain was until now, and it's almost scary how easily it is to change from an anti-hero to anti-villain just from a different perspective. Also thank you for this video because I never thought of Thanos as an anti-villain.
Zuko is a good and bad example of a “villain we feel sorry for.” He starts out as a villain, but his character is a representation of growth, maturity, self reflection, chosen family vs. birth family, and how a person with a good heart can overcome all of their past wrongdoings.
Book 1 Zuko is certainly a villain we feel sorry for, but we quickly learn that it is actually a setup to make us like him even more later for being able to see the light and truly change.
True.
Beat me to it. but i agree 100% Zuko is one of my favorite characters in ATLA just for his representation of growth, i just love how hes written!
Thats more Heel-face turn than anti villain though. Zuko's villain motivation is to win Ozai's approval and, presumably, ensure his inheritance to the throne when Ozai passes or abdicates.
@@NazuikoNo, he’s considered an anti-villain even in TVtrope, remember how he SAVED his own men that Iroh and him have recruited on their own ship? He *isn’t* as bad as you might think he is.
Yes, he torched a village where Aang was held, stole an ostrich horse, and even betrayed Iroh and turned his back on the Gaang, and eventually conquered Ba Sing Se with his sister who turned him over back to his nation, even when he had a chance for redemption. Honestly? This only fueled his desire for something better, and betraying the compassionate Uncle Iroh and going back to his abusive father and manipulative sister just ISN’T and WILL NEVER be a good thing for an already developed Zuko, so no, he definitely fits a very flawed anti-villain, it’s still morally grey y’know.
Zuko is one of my all time favorite anti-villain redeemed, which is weird how he’s sometimes behaves like Raphael from TMNT whenever he’s in the Gaang, I suppose habits die hard. You don’t want to lose your villainous edge until you realize you’ve lost your own goal and a will and passion to drive it. Now you just gotta find that fire in you again elsewhere.
Not nearly enough appreciation goes to Anti-villains. If you've seen enough spy thrillers, you'll be very familiar with the trope
Like Michael Weston said: "Being a spy you have to get comfortable with people doing bad things for good reasons, doing good things for bad reasons."
Honorable villain trope, e.g. Thanos!
Even then you rarely see anti-villians done to their extremes. A charqcter who seems to be a self-sacrificing hero until you realise what they want. Wilson "Kingpin" Fisk from Marvel nearly fits this trope as he presents himself as a philanthropist and upstanding citizen but maintains that front because it gives him lots of political and social influence which he uses to advance his own wealth.
Megamind however is a prime example of a character who is an anti-villian for much of the movie. Due to him wanting to return to an exciting life of super villainy, after the apparent death of his heroic nemesis, he sets about a plan to create and train a new hero to be his new nemesis. Good methods, evil motives.
@@KryyssTVI feel like Dr. Doofenshmirtz is a great Anti-Villain because in spite of how nice and charming he still wants to conquer the Tri-State area, tries to kill large groups of people for petty reasons (and tried to blow up the sun that one time to help out an old friend)
Kira... ? Some people debate the morality even today no?
Makima is probably the best anti-villain in fiction
There's a science-fiction short story in which the two main characters become the hero and the anti-villain.
The two men are trapped within a star vessel.
Rescue is coming, but by the time it arrives, both men will have died from lack of oxygen.
However, should one of them die within one hour, the other will have enough oxygen left to live.
The story concentrates on one man, who eventually kills himself to save the other's life.
That man is the hero, the one who will be held as an example of heroic self-sacrifice.
The other is the coward--- wait.
The one who lives correctly pointed out that whoever is left alive will for his life deal with the fact everybody he meets will consider him a coward.
So, choose heroic death, or live for years being treated as a coward?
The hero chose death, the anti-villain accepted a life in which he's treated as a villain.
I'd say the one who survives can't be called an anti-villain. What defines hero or villain is their goal. Basically, hero saves others, villain harms others, and side characters are just there to show who is a hero and who is a villain.
The survivor's goal was to live, and if he didn't play mind games with the hero or directly harmed him then he's just a side-character who happens to be a coward.
At least that's how I understood the story from your words. By any chance you remember what it was called?
Can we all just take a moment to appreciate the time and effort it must take to make this good an animation?
Agree
Here in Australia we had a famous gangster named Mark Brandon ‘Chopper’ Read, who fits the notion of ‘likeable villain’ perfectly. Undoubtedly a bad bad man, he was also charming and hilariously funny. Even police detectives who knew him well over many years could never be 100% sure when he was pretending to confess but just joking, or pretending to tell a joke that later on turned out to be a confession.
I would think Ned Kelly would be the first to come to mind for Australian anti-villains.
And he only seemed to target other criminals rather than innocent people - or at least that was the image he created, so that gave him extra brownie point in the public eye.
So technically almost all of Korra's antagonists are anti-villains. Most of them have good intentions, visions or goals (at first) however all of them turned to evil methods and in time all have lost sight of their original goals at least partially and have been succumbed to do purely evil things
unlike a lot of people i really enjoyed TLoK, mainly because of the villains
@@markborsos646 yes, unlike Ozai, who was inherently evil, a "born villain", the main antagonists of Korra are all complex, have secrets, hidden or long forgotten motives
That's probably the strongest aspecrt of the series, although season 2 is somewhat lacking with how overtly evil the villsin ended up being, losing most of his nuanced qualities (to me anyway).
@@kingofhearts3185 absolutely. Even the series itself made fun of Unalaq :D Anyhow he was the weakest link, but the season made up for it in the double episode of looking back to the origins of the Avatar
Too bad Amon's character was completely undermined when it was revealed he was a water bender...
The first character that comes to my mind when thinking about an anti-villain is Ozymandias from Watchmen. He successfully ended the Cold War and created world peace but at the cost of millions of lives.
Wrong. That's an anti-hero. His method was wrong and evil, but his end goal was true and good.
Al Capone is probably the best real life example of an anti villain because even though he committed many crimes, he still cared greatly for the people and that’s why he was very well liked.
Jose Battle is a better example in my opinion if you want to use real life mobsters.
@@Seriona1 I looked him him up and so far he sounds more like an anti hero but right now I’ve only managed to read on his early life.
@@leifell His early life if I remember was petty crimes and working for the CIA, his story doesn't really kick off until after the Bay of Pigs.
In real life, many "movers and shakers" tend to be anywhere from full hero to full villain depending on your perspective. Is (for a non-current example) George W. Bush a hero for toppling the Iraq regime and liberating the country with the coalition of the willing, or is he a villain for destabilizing the region through an offensive war against a de-militarized non-aggressive country? Party trick: Ask this question at a family gathering. Or rather, don't. Opinions do tend to vary.
Protect the people from the foxes, and you get to off a few a week for dinner.
There's another version of anti-villain that comes to mind for me. A character who commits good acts that intentionally result in something evil. Something like: Person fixes a road between two cities which results in better trade routes between them (and also diverts trade from the hero's city to weaken their fighting capacity). This creates a dilemma for the hero, because they can't really go after these people without coming off as a villain themselves. However, they are actively causing problems in the world that are side effects of otherwise good actions.
and you can deepen that when the villain offers to improve the road to the hero city, knowing full well that the economic effect for his conglomerate and political position situation benefits more from the transaction, then the hero city. But at some point you need to ask: Is it a villain or a misunderstanding? Antagonists are not villains. Having different goals that can be seen as good can make people political antagonist - that is literal politics - but showing the other political force as antagonist, let alone villain is wrong.
@@sarowie The Villain vs misunderstanding is part of the point of this. The villain is operating under some sort of plausible deniability. Since it's a story, you can clarify by writing about the motivations from the villain's point of view.
Another good example that I had read a while ago. A "Hero" character defeats a dragon that was causing problems. However, in doing so that dragon happens to turn into a dracolich and starts poisoning the water supply being an even worse problem than before. In the case I'm thinking, it wasn't done on purpose. But if we were to want an anti-villain, the dracolich thing would have been intentionally planned.
@@LivingShdwa third party on that last part would have to be involved, or atleast the hero would know of it, as a means to do the ol switcheroo of poisoning the well and having the cure which the hero would leverage to become a ruler, with the facade of a good person but has a hidden insane nature
@@nightshade4873 Yeah, if the "Hero" knew that defeating the dragon in a specific location/method would cause it to turn then it could be played in that direction. And, as you point out, it also creates a new problem for them to solve (and thus gain more notoriety).
@@LivingShdw I'm guessing the dragon thing is from anime Rising of the Shield Hero. The Sword Hero slays a dragon but doesn't dispose of its remains and it ends up becoming undead and creating a miasma that causes a plague in the surrounding villages. Honestly the Sword, Bow, and Spear heroes from that could all be another type of "anti-villain," I would call it the "villain by incompetence." An arch-type of a character that tries to be the hero but in the end they make everything worse due to their extreme negligence, incompetence, and/or ignorance.
This reminded me of the head of Ghost spiders from H×H, he's so calm and soft spoken, is always polite and gives genuine answers to an interested girl, he cares so deeply for his fellow spiders, mourns their deaths, yet still goes on committing genocide on an island just for the money and reputation and orchestrates massacres in one of the densest populated cities, and so, so much more
Chrollo? Yeah. He fits. Especially knowing his backstory.
HxH is just full of anti-heroes and anti-villains.
"Ghost Spiders" bro read H+H
@bichiroloXP Everybody looks at Gon like he's this bright-eyed, passionate, good-willed boy without realizing he's completely amoral in the grand scheme of things.
He literally watched Killua rip someone's heart out of their chest with an honest to God smile on his face.
@@trajectoryunown The thing with HxH is that its thematically about nature vs nuture. Gon was raised decently by his aunt and loved by everyone, but he shows a strange willingness just to destroy the entire world around him for the sake of his few friends. We're supposed to see him as a honest to goodness protagonist with a strict moral stance like every other generic shojun plot has. But no, we figure out much later.
Killua, on the other hand, was raised and tortured by his own 'loving' family of dark hearted assassins, but he shows his affections towards people and forced himself out of that life he was built for.
The story is gonna be sad if Killua and Gon end up having to fight each other at the end.
Walter White is a very good example of an anti-villain. He does a lot of good and honorable things throughout the series, but his ultimate goal is to use his talent to become someone great. Not someone good, just someone great, and he achieves his goal by becoming a legendary drug kingpin.
There's a big distinction I am understanding the difference between being great vs good. Narcissism vs achieveme for society
I can't tell if this is satire or genuine. I hope its not the latter...
@@ButtMonkey985 why not? Did I say something wrong?
Walter white is just a villain
@@inbeing3464 what about all the good things he did? The most memorable one is probably saving Jessie in the last episode. He lost his brother in law because of him. He was the reason why they got into shit with Gus. And yet Walter decided to fall him over instead of just killing him along with all the other people there. That was just an act of compassion from Walt. A villain wouldn't have felt that way.
Edelgard von Hresvelg from Fire Emblem Three Houses fits this kind of label exactly. She exactly and very neatly shifts between Anti-Hero and Anti-Villain by both your pov perspective, and also the perspective what character there is of Byleth provides.
Was about to say her too
My brain read her name as Edgelord von Hresvelg. I think I might be tired.
In regards to how perspective changes Anti-Heroes to Anti-Villains, and vice versa, the difference between the Harry Potter books AND the movies is a good example.
There are plenty of people who have only seen the films, where a lot of Snape's crueler tendencies were omitted.
Threatening AND attempting to poison Nevil's toad, allowing Malfoy to injure Hermione with a tooth-growing spell without repurcussions AND mocking her. And one really big detail, he tried to convince Voldemort to spare Lily. Not Harry. Not James. Lily. He was fully willing to let two innocent people die for his own selfish happiness.
The films omit all of this, and when you combine that with Alan Rickman's charm, he comes across as a lot more heroic.
yeah, Snape only turned on Voldemort because he betrayed his trust in not killing Lily. If not for that, he'd still be a full on villain. Once Harry then became the only piece of Lily Snape had left, he became concerned for Harry's safety, but still would shit on him because he was also a part of James.
Oh, and let's not forget about how he outed Lupin as a werewolf in retaliation to not getting to hand Sirius over to the dementors, even after learning about his innocence.
I'd say Snape is still a good example of an anti-villain because he's a terrible person who teams up with the good guys not out of any growth, change or conscience, but a personal grudge against the dark lord.
I'd say at least 85% of what makes movie!Snape likeable is Alan Rickman, the rest is the writing and the various omissions from the books. Book!Snape is honestly pretty awful, even after the twist is revealed. Snape and Lily's friendship wasn't all that healthy even when they were in school, and as far as I remember he never even expressed genuine remorse for using the word "mudblood" or for joining the Death Eaters. His own choices drove her away, but he never owned up to that and just resented James for "taking her away from him." Like you pointed out, book!Snape only begs for Lily's life to be spared, not caring at all about the family she loved and that made her happy, something that causes Dumbledore...a character who's done some very questionable and self-serving things himself...to straight up say "You disgust me." During the "Always" scene, when Dumbledore suggests that Snape has grown to care for Harry, book!Snape vehemently DENIES it before he casts his patronus and reveals that it's the same as Lily's. He never grew or learned from what he had done, never tried to actually atone or become a better person...he just wanted to do something in the name of unrequited love for a dead woman. But even then, that one seemingly redeeming quality isn't all that redeeming. He didn't really love Lily. He was just obsessed with her. She was kind to him, and he wanted to possess her. That isn't genuine love. If he HAD grown to actually care for her son, or had recognized what a jerkass he'd been, or renounced some of his beliefs, then maybe book!Snape would have been a grayer, more anti-heroic character. But he didn't. He was pretty much a spiteful incel who was only begrudgingly on the side of good.
So what you're saying is the author wrote a poor character and then the movies improved the characterization? I think that an important part of book and movie adaptation that gets lost: book is NOT always better. The details you included about Snape's cruelness illustrate this. Those are details written into a book to show how "mean" a character is. The movie's present a much more nuance picture that is genuinely compelling l.
@SeanWilliamGeorgeBuc the author wrote a character... who served hos role. There was no need for character growth. That does not make him a poor character... not everyone has to change in order to be compelling
1:10 I can already see it. The most complex thing about these characters has to be, convincing your audience that their good deeds were genuine and not just tricks from a Villian.
Honestly, anti-villians are more common than villian
Just think about it
Simple definition for anti hero and anti villian
Anti hero: Does the wrong things for the right reasons
Anti villians: Does the right things for the wrong reasons
Hero: Does the right things for the right reasons
Villian: Does the wrong things for the wrong reasons
the best example of someone who fits both lables imo is Maruki from Persona5
he wants to create a world where no one is sad but it requires mass manipulation and slight brainwashing to achieve it but he is good at heart and doesnt want to fight, ironically one person on your side is more villanus than the antagonist
Gus Fring is probably the closest thing I can think of as an example of this archetype. He’s pretty evil but he also donates to an orphanage and takes care of his legitimate business’ employees
Dr. doofenshmirtz, that's who came to mind for me.
How about Johan Liebert or Yoshikage Kira?
There's also "Queen" from delatrune, also known by her true name "Q5U4EX7YY2E9N"
She is by all means an evil tyrant, capturing people, planning world domination, plans on turning someone's face into a robot one
But it's all stemmed from her wanting everyone to be happy
"Kris, I just want everyone to be happy"
And if I have to become an evil villan to accomplish that, is that"
"Bad?"
Everything she does despite it being wrong is all for the sake of making people happy, like playing video games with the fun gang, goofing around with them, even opening fountains and causing the end of the world was done purely out of ignorance and the urge to bring joy despite her ignorance
Potassium
@@CastleMiser literally never heard of either
He’s also playing into his community loving philanthropic chicken man façade as he hides right under the DEA’s nose.
I do remember one time Thanos helped a old lady cross the street, he delayed a bus, this caused a chain of events that WOULD have happened to not happen instead. A girl named Stephanie's life would have changed the entire world with making true equality, world peace, and curing all diseases, and eventually, she would have saved the entire universe by doing so, making the whole universe a wonderful place to live in, all because she would have met another girl that would have encouraged her to help make the world a better place. Ofc, this all did not happen because the bus was delayed thanks to Thanos helping an old lady cross the street.(At the end Thanos showed her what her life would have been like on her death bed, she died with a horrible realization, that he stole her life, and everyone elses as well) I feel like this is a perfect example of a villian who does good things for bad reasons.
I completely forgot about that one lmao
This issue made Reverse Flash look not so petty in comparison to Thanos, the fact he just went to show her what her life could have been was just unnecessarily petty and for no god damn reason
Comic thanos was almost as petty as reverse flash compared to the MCU version they are like 2 diffirent charracters
Oh man, that sounds so awful...from the girl that is.
It's not like Thanos caused continuous roadblock for her for years, yes?
She had the potential of literally improving the whole universe, but never did because she never thought about it?
And she even feels sad from knowing what could've been. What's she sad about exactly? Is it really the fact Thanos made such an insignificant change to "ruin" her life? Or is it because she was as stupid as to actually never try to do anything good because of said insignificant change?
If not the universe, she had at least the power of improving her personal environment.
Thanos didn't steal shit from anyone; sorry, but that's a stupid way to handle alternate timelines.
@@joseruizdiaz9622 Your comment makes me think about something I once heard about the Trolley Problem. Basically it was that the problem with the Trolley Problem is that it assumes we know the outcomes. If you pull the lever, only one person gets run over. If you don't pull the lever, 5 people get run over. However, you can't really know things like that in the real world. What if instead of running over 5 people, the trolley hits the brakes and harms no one? What if after running over the one person, the driver gets out and shoots the other 5 guys? What if because you pulled the lever and had 1 person get run over, they were unable to get to their job at the nuclear power plant and caused Chernobyl 2.0? The point, I think, was that in a more practical sense, you can't really know the full outcome of your actions. You can only do what seems like the right choice based on information you have available.
You save a person by grabbing them right before they could walk forward and get run over by an oncoming truck. This is the right thing to do (if you are able). If that person then goes on to become a serial killer with a body count of 100, your choice to save them doesn't automatically become the "Wrong" or "Bad" or "Immoral" choice because you didn't know they would become a serial killer.
As for the Thanos example being a stupid way to handle yeah. I mean I think the reason Thanos is a bad guy here is because he delayed the bus KNOWING that it would "Rob" the universe of its future savior and rob the girl of her greater life and then he gloated it over the girl on her deathbed for no reason? But if that's the case... this raises a lot of questions that I don't think have a good answer other than "Plot Hole". If delaying the bus caused a chain reaction that led the girl to not have the greater life, then what exactly is the nature of Free Will here? If it is all predestined, then wasn't Thanos always supposed to delay the bus? If it wasn't predestined and each decision caused a different outcome, then doesn't Thanos's action just not do anything in the grand scheme of things? Like wouldn't there always be a universe where the bus got delayed? And if it is more like "This one action pivoted everything" then wouldn't every action have wide reaching consequence on every other universe? I don't think there's a proper, satisfying answer to this. And if decisions do matter, why is the girl sad? In the end, forces beyond her control dealt her a hand and her decisions took it form there. Yeah you're right, this is not a good way to handle multiple universes.
@@veriser6175 They are two completely different characters, with fundamentally different motives and end goals. The only similarities are their titles and their fondness for the infinity stones.
I think Meruem from Hunter X Hunter before the nuke was a good example of anti-villain. He was just a few weeks old and still learning the ways of life, but his main goal is to take over the human world.
His perspective and personality changed so much after he met Komugi and Netero, realizing that there were exceptional humans in their own right and craft. But his main goal didn’t change of taking over the known world, and ultimately decided to have a certain human population under-controlled (similar to Promised Neverland).
Grand Admiral Thrawn is great example of Anti Villain. Most people mistakenly sees him as Anti Hero... but at the end, he is always on the side of bad guys.
The character of Bondrewd from Made in abyss is how he is evil and a horrible person yet also has a kind and loving personality throughout which just adds to how terrifying he really is
It's more complex than that, imo, but you're right. There's a reason why "bondrewd did nothing wrong" is a sentence that exists.
He's clearly an unfathomable monster. One with noble goals juxtaposed with irredeemable methods. And he's a bit of a paradox, genuinely loving and empathizing with those he sacrifices or makes use of. While the abyss itself is a uniquely cosmic horror setting, he is the perfect representation of a villain in line with that setting.
Probably one the best written villains in all of fiction, tbh.
Very glad to See there are Made in Abyss fans in this comment section
@@radikaldesignzyeah, man Bondrewd was really interesting. I was already intrigued from the opening of the show, while the show only showed his doings and effects, the movie did brought forth how he really was... really interesting.
I wonder tho, is the second guy also an anti-villain?
What about "Stain" in (MHA)
The antagonists of made in abyss are special. None of them quite fall into any specific trope, as the abyss adds some sort of eldritch twist each time.
First, there is Ozen. She plays the role of mentor, but her irredeemable personality and ill nature born of the abyss has her come across as a villain. Even after it is revealed she was testing them, she is still not a good person. It is only her ties to humanity through Marulk and Ozen that keep her from villainy.
Then we meet the first truly evil villain, Bondrewd. And yet, he preaches of love and families formed by bonds. He is friendly to our protagonists, congratulating their accomplishments, marveling at their ingenuity. He has become another eldritch horror of the abyss, harboring no malice, but terrifying all the same.
Faputa is driven to destroy by her very nature, to bring vengeance upon those who defiled her siblings and mother. At first, it reveals itself as unquenchable rage, causing her to harm both herself and even those she loves most. Once everything is stripped from her, and she inherits the memories of the villagers, her new perspective allows her to fulfill her duty out of love and respect, turning the antagonist who fought our heroes into a protagonist who joins them.
Honestly, the one that comes to mind for me here is Dexter. He's likeable in that he has a "degree of relatability" to him. He cares deeply for his sister, and those close to him (granted in his own way). He has a strict morale code that he adheres to that makes it easier for you to get on his side in the show. But at the end of the day he is a serial killer who is doing it to satisfy his dark passenger. He is a cold-blooded killer.
Huh? There's no way a kid's show has a boy literally kill people as the protagonist.
he means Dexter from the 2006 crime drama “ Dexter”, not the cartoon
@@feelfreetoscreenshot715 I refuse to think of this as anything but Dexter's Laboratory.
Dexter's laboratory?
I thought you meant the serial killer TV show and then Dexters laboratory and THEN back to the show 😂
When he started explaining the anti-hero/anti-villian thing, Treasure Planet and Silver came to my mind right away and I was quite surprised when he was mentioned. It's good to see this movie get the recognition it deserves
I find the most useful way to distinguish between an anti-hero and an anti-villain is how they handle collateral damage. An anti-hero is someone who wants something good and will do what it takes to get it, even if that means killing the people who stand in their way. However an anti-villain, on the other hand, will do what it takes to get what they want, even if that means blowing up buildings and killing innocents or dooming a generation or whatever. At least, assuming we're talking about the kind of anti-villain who wants something good, the contrast with the "noble" anti-villain archetype and the anti-hero archetype is much more clear as their motivations are still clearly villainous but they have a code of ethics or honor that makes them clearly reasonable and less of a problem than most villains tend to be.
I'd say the "noble" villain is the quintessential Lawful Evil, they have firm lines in the sand and rules of conduct, but they are still bad people who do bad things for bad reasons. I'd classify most of the "well intentioned extremist" anti-villains as Neutral Evil, while their reasons may be good, they are still bad people who do bad things, and they don't have firm rules to keep them in check, they aren't strictly Chaotic since they do have some semblance of a framework to their moral system, just their rules are fewer, broader, and more flexible; this category of villain pretty much cannot be Lawful in alignment since by virtue of their having *already* compromised their morals to get to the point of being a villain in the first place in spite of clearly wanting to do good, clearly they are willing and able to throw the rules out the window in service of their goals.
On a bit of a tangent regarding the alignment stuff, I find a lot of people misunderstand the lawful/chaotic axis, largely because they get caught up in the concept of "law". I hear a lot of people say "X cannot be lawful because they break the law," or "Y cannot be chaotic because they follow the law!" But being lawful or chaotic doesn't really have anything to do with the laws of the society the character happens to be in. Similarly, I hear a lot of people equate lawful with the concept of "order" as order is usually opposed to chaos, and that CAN be a useful parallel to draw, especially when discussing the general alignment of a society, evil empires tend to be lawful evil by simple virtue of the fact that they bring order and stability, but that doesn't necessarily mean that EVERY lawful character will be in favor of an ordered society nor that every chaotic character will be opposed to order on a societal scale. This fault in equating order to lawful alignments is best illustrated once more on a societal level, you can have a society or country or what have you that is chaotic good, and I don't think it would be fair to call such a society disordered, otherwise it really wouldn't be a good society. On a societal scale the concept of chaotic good is probably best embodied by the (true) libertarian ideals, the government is less controlling, only punishing actually bad things, and personal freedom is more important than personal safety. Because the flaw in libertarian ideals is that it assumes most or all people involved in said society will be generally good and that any malefactors will be generally obvious and clear cut, this sort of society doesn't tend to stay good for very long in practice, especially on a scale larger than a city or two, but a city-state can actually run pretty well on this concept, especially in a less developed society where there has been less time or fewer resources for bad people to abuse the holes in the system. Personally, I find the best way to define the lawful/chaotic axis as being a matter of moral absolutism (or objective morality) vs moral relativism (or subjective morality), a lawful character has a firm code of conduct that they follow at all times, while a chaotic character does not (or at least not with any real clarity or definition), with neutral characters having some amount of framework and rules, but those rules are flexible and the framework might have situations where it can be thrown out entirely due to convenience or perceived necessity. Good people will still generally do good things (at least more often than not) regardless of rules, as The Doctor says "good people don't need rules", so a generally good person can be lawful with lots of firm rules, chaotic with few or no rules, or neutral with flexible rules that can sometimes be ignored, and all while still being good. A generally evil person can still be lawful with lots of firm rules, chaotic with few or no rules, or neutral with flexible rules that can sometimes be ignored, all while still being evil. And finally you can have people who are neither generally good nor generally evil and yet still be lawful with lots of firm rules, chaotic with few or no rules, or neutral with flexible rules that can sometimes be ignored, all while going back and forth between doing good things and bad things. Laws and rules are not necessarily a moral framework, but rather a code of conduct or how to handle situations with minimal nuance, hence why, for example, the laws of the US are not intended to BE a moral framework, just because something is illegal does not mean it is evil or morally bad, and while most of the law is written with the intention of generally promoting good behavior and punishing bad behavior, things like consistency and objectivity are supposed to be held as more important than morality when writing or interpreting the law. Ideally you'd have a lawful good legislature, a lawful neutral judicial system, and a neutral or even chaotic good enforcement system in order to bring about the best results, not that any real society of any sort of modern scale can achieve this ideal in the long run, but that's beside the point of describing ideals.
I’m already two minutes in and I’ve subbed, the character design, the animation, the artistry in your teams demonstrations, the cadence in the voice actors performance- excellence, pure excellence. I can’t wait to add these videos to my storytelling repertoire
They got 400,000 extra subs in a few months damn
Same
same like- i didnt even get that far it and im already subbed as well. ive seen so many of their vids floating around that look interesting and really good :D
Anti-hero example: Stain (though it's a far fetch)
Anti-villain example: Mr. Gentle
The second i saw the intro and how passionate the creator seems im all in
I personally think that 343 Guilty Spark from HALO is one of the best anti-villains in media, he's so polite and even genuinely believes that he's on the side of our protagonists, he just doesn't understand why it is that the protagonists like the post-schism Elites and Humans want to live instead of follow the protocol for destroying the Flood set by the Forerunners that made him.
Despite the name of the level making you think so, he isn't even really "betraying" Master Chief and Cortana by trying to kill everyone in the beginning of "Two Betrayals", he thought that's what everyone else wanted as well. "Protocol dictates action" means that he helps the protagonist "every step of the way" up until the very moment that the protagonist does something against protocol which means a swift laser to the chest and a "gun pointed at the head of the universe".
Small detail; Predator takes place in South America (we are never told which country, but it is very evident that it's a Spanish-speaking nation); the soldiers are Vietnam vets. Overall, though, I found this to be an interesting and informative video about tropes I recognized but had never seen labeled before. Thank you.
I'm trying to write up an anti-villain in an apocalypse setting. I picture him being played by Walton Goggins. He's a cowboy, bounty hunter, hellraiser for hire and almost always at odds with the main characters, no matter who the big bad guy is.
But he's an equal opportunity hellraiser so he often ends up saving the heroes immediately after getting paid and helping capture them. He even finds a few of the main characters "interesting" and will at times just appear on his horse and actively help them survive in the wild.
Gives “Mysterious Stranger” from the Fallout series. Love that.
David Xanatos from Gargoyles is a Magnificent Bastard, a character you know to be a jerk but still can't help liking because of how charismatic he is. Still, for most of the series run, he's also a Noble Antivillain; he actually won't allow people to die; it's because he likes to pit his considerable intellect against others. He doesn't want the game to be ruined by a player being lost through that sort of means, but he has the very selfish goal of achieving immortality for himself (and later his wife as well) because he wants to stay in the game and do more with his wealth.
Xanatos is one of the most enjoyable villains ever. Gargoyles was such a good show, it's criminal that we never got to see the ending that the authors intended in animation.
when they mention the idea of a anti villain, I immediately think of dr. doofenshmirtz. he's a person with evil goals but he's actually a pretty nice guy who loves his daughter and actually cares about parry the platypus even though parry always screws his plans.
I love this channel!!! And being a frequent reader of the wiki Television Tropes and Idioms in my youth, I'm loving your explanation of common and uncommon story tropes. ❤😍🥰❤
Reminds me of when I took an ethics class on intentions vs. outcomes. I could write a character who is outstandingly friendly, charming, and convincing but with an end goal of using the friends he's made to do bad things for him. Get a whole cult of personality, where the friends he's made believe that he is so good and noble that they would do anything for him, even steal or kill. He'd be like someone feeding crows and training them to do what he wants
I think one of the best examples of a true anti-villain would be Uncle Iroh from Season 1 of ATLA, despite being one of the wisest and most beloved characters probably in all of television, in that first season he's still working with the Fire Nation to try and capture the heroes, track down anyone who's helped them, and lay siege to the Northern Water Tribe in the last few episodes...
Not to mention his own past as a ruthless up-and-coming Fire Lord who almost successfully took over Ba Sing Se, and would've continued the dark conquest of the Fire Nation had his son not died.
In a way, as horrible as it is to say, the death of Iroh's son was probably the best outcome for the Avatar world, as it delayed the Fire Nation's ambitions enough for the Avatar to reawaken in time to stop them, and it made Iroh reevaluate his life and set out on the journey that would ultimately lead to his redemption and allow him to become the best version of himself.
@@dataexpunged4784Tragedy springs change, that’s why winter must always come before spring. You must face difficult moments before you finally learn to let it go for others to rise up with your guidance or not, don’t just be like the bigger tree that sits in one spot, be the sun that guides everybody, even when you’re the lonely one suffering quietly. 😢
A dynamic i want to see more often are Noble Anti-villain with a line he refuses to cross and an Anti-hero who is willing to cross any line to schieve his goals.
The villain retaining his Humanity while the hero tosses it away
Tales of Berseria almost has this setup. You play an anti hero and the antagonist is an anti villain from what I remember.
Gon and Pitou
Anderson and Alucard from hellsing
Metal gear
Wamu
This intro animation is so beautiful 😭
I think Giovanni Potash from Epithet Erased (UA-cam series) would count as the "noble anti-villain". He's an aspiring, if bumbling, criminal who aspires to be a super villain, but he's fiercely protective of his minions and has a great moment where he helps another character work on her self-confidence issues (so she can be a better minion for him).
Giovanni is just a silly guy who wants to prove that he can be something. If it involves joining a villain-based pyramid scheme, he’s gonna do it! And gosh dangit; he’ll treat everyone with the kindness they deserve while he’s at it
Deluded Anti-Villain
He is clearly just an antihero tho, while things he does are illegal he always does them with good goals in mind
giovanni is an anti-hero. spoilers from anime campaign below!
NAVEN NUKNUK NAVEN NUKNUK HE IS LITERALLY THE TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE OF THIS IDEA
HE'S NOT EVEN LIKE, HIDING AN EVIL MOTIVE! HE'S A GOOD PERSON! TRYING TO DO SOMETHING GOOD! IT'S NOT AN ACT! BUT STILL THE MAIN ANTAGONIST BECAUSE HE IS TOO RADICAL!!!
I wouldn't call "becoming the world's greatest super-villain" a good goal, but whatever.@@codebracker
Dr Maruki from Persona 5 Royale is a good example. His goal of taking away free will from people makes him evil, but his reason behind it is to make a perfect world where everyone is happy. The player even gets to see the phantom thieves and other npcs as happy as they ever will be. When told the truth, they realize that having no free will is not how they want to live, and go to fight Dr Maruki
Exactly what I was going to say, the literal definition of anti-villain
blud thinks he's YHVH😭😭😭
He also works as a twist villain too. He wants to help out everyone, and he seemed so unassuming at first, but makes perfect sense. He is also a traveler of the meta verse like Akechi.
On the topic of anti-villain, he had someone he loved torn by a traumatic experience, and so he erased her memories, wiping the memories spent with him in the process. Normally, people would be shocked or ashamed, but he had strength. He had the mental strength to go “If that’s how I can fix people, then so be it.” He was completely willing to let himself be erased for the betterment of society, but his actions were wrong. If only he used the powers he had for good… and not the “feel good” crap he gives everyone.
Exactly what I came to comment. I actually struggled to accept the true ending because I totally saw where he was coming from.
Rank 4: "On my way to school this morning, I spotted a kitten that had gotten itself stuck up in a tree. I tried rescuing it since I felt bad for it, but I ended up with the clawing of a lifetime for the effort. I had no idea a cat's claws were so sharp... But I was able to rescue the kitten, so all's well that ends well."
In almost _any_ other antagonist this kind of cheesy "save the cat" anecdote would be remarkably eye-rolling and stretching believability. But for P5R, looking back on that moment like "oh........ we're like that cat aren't we 🥲" was the perfect way to contextualize the conflict at play here.
Someone with enough compassionate drive to go out of their way for everyone else's benefit...... but also enough ideological hangups that no matter the safety awaiting us, we'd end up clawing our way out anyway >:3€
Damn you @TheTaleFoundry, I pride myself on being able to stop watching videos whenever I want, but you keep on making really enticing videos that I feel will make my stories that much better, and so I keep clicking. Damn you, thank you.
9:16 quick nitpick ☝️
They’re not green berets in Vietnam. They’re mercenaries in the fictional Latin American country Val Verde.
One of the best anti-vilain I've ever seen is Silco from Arcane. The guy makes some horrible things like killing people and controlling all of the criminality from Zaun. But also he hasn't a bad purpose because all he wants is the liberty for the residents of his city. And more of that, he truly loves his adoptive daughter Jinx for which he was ready to give up everything rather than abandon her.
All illustrated by his last words : I never would have given you to them, not for anything
I guess a similar villain would be Enrico Pucci or Funny Valentine.
Enrico made a fatal mistake of indirectly killing a person he loved and met the wrong person, which influenced him to "achieve Heaven" which would kill many in the process all so that they can forsee fate.
Valentine is a US president who wants his country to prosper with the use of the corpse of a dead saint. He is arguably an antagonist instead of a villain as his goals are way more noble than the protagonist (protag want leg move)
@@CastleMiser what bout the time fv almost become edp
Was about to comment the same thing :0
I feel like Talebot should make an episode based on the nature of Corvids (as in crows, ravens, and magpies.) in fantasy. Especially since in the real world they can talk like parrots, and are more than likely to band together to attack anyone who dares to harm a member of their murder.
There are some interesting videos on their abilities to solve puzzles, create tools, understand mirrors, and long term thinking that place them on par with 8 year olds.
"Nevermore!"
I have personal theory of living. There are 4 ways of going about everything:
1. Good thing for right reasons = hero
2. Good thing for wrong reasons = anti-hero
3. Bad thing for right reason = anti-villain
4. Bad thing for wrong reason = villain
You have anti-hero and anti-villain swapped. An anti-hero does the wrong thing for the right reason, and vice versa, as showcased in this very video.
@@TheFirstCurse1 yeah, what you said.
5:25
*”KIDS DIE FOR ✨F R E E E E E E E E E E✨”*
Interestingly enough there is a very specific trope that would consistently fall into the anti-villain category, the "Magnificent Bastard", would be lovely to see your take on this specific trope
I think pucci is a really good example here. He strives to reset the universe to make a new one and everyone in that universe would be able to see their whole future. But not only did he kill multiple people to get here, He killed countless people in the universe reset and intentionally tried to killed Jolyne and her crew.
He established his goal as his idea of heaven, but it didn’t make much sense to me and probably many others. Foresight is the one factor that makes destinies feel more hopeless compared to the choices in the moment way of living. I’m sure poking his brain would do a number, yet sometimes something simpler like a world of only prosperity and no strife, putting him closer to Thanos, makes him seem less bonkers.
Nah, doing evil for the right reasons is antihero, imo...but there is a lot of crossover
I’ve only found this channel until recently but I already love the production that goes into videos, plus the topics are always so interesting
I love this concept. This describes the main character of my story pretty well. In any other story he would be a straight villain but his motives are altruistic even though he needs to do horrible things to achieve them. He also has a touch of the Byronic to him.
To be honest, anti hero sounds like some hero with the power of evil and the same for the anti villain
Welcome to non-dualism
Haha. That would describe a lot of my characters, then. I love having magic systems that are CLEARLY black magic be used by the good guys. Just, casually. Like, they don't have to sell their soul to get it, but they're using shadows, hellfire, and insanity to get their job done. And they just don't care. They usually do recognize that their asethetic does not match their morality, but they don't usually care.
Ah yeah, I like that whole trope where the villain can go forward with their plan because the magical macguffin sees them as pure of heart
Nice resume 😅
I don't like that version of anti villain I think a better version of anti villain from the TV show show boys because the guy was Superman's powers definitely has no real goal of good and all these anti v could be considered anti-heroes if you want to argue it the anti-villain cease talking about have adjust goal doing bad stuff to get it done
I have to say Wakfu has an amazing antivillain. Nox's whole story is so good and tragic, but what he does makes so much sense. At the end of the day if he succeds, nothing will matter and then he would've gotten what he wanted. His family back. So technically everything he does is justified if he makes it. I'm being vague not to spoil anything if anyone might be interested in Wakfu. It's a great show and I recomend everyone gives it a watch.
You could say the same for Quilby and Oropo too.
Not for Quilby. If he succeeds, good for him and the Eliatropes, but all of the World of Twelve will be annihilated and nothing will change that. Unlike Nox, who tries to rewind time.
Nox might well be my favorite "vilain" in all of fiction. Just a man dealing with his grief (in obviously wrong yet deeply understandable ways). And the Ghibli animated backstory, chef kiss.
I'm glad that i didn't had to search for long to find a comment about Nox.
@@madeleinedartois4689 But his backstory is tragic enough that it makes you symphatise with him and understand his descision to do so. Imagine knowing everything there is to know, having done everything there is to do and essentially living through the same things for an eternity while slowly the people closest to you stop reckognising you therefore leading to further isolation and depression. Thats essentially what Quilbys life was before the events of the show so I understand why he didnt want to live through that again.
A while back i though of a little scale for Heroes to Villains after reading through tvtropes' analysis pages on types of anti-heroes and anti-villains.
6/5 -'Ideal Hero'
5/5 -'Classical Anti-Hero'
4/5 -'Knight in Sour Armor'
3/5 -'Pragmatic Hero'
2/5 -'Hero Antagonist '
1/5 -'Unscrupulous Hero'
0/5 -'Well Intentioned Extremist'
-1/5 -'Nominal Hero'
-2/5 -'Woobie Destroyer of Worlds'
-3/5 -'Noble Demon'
-4/5 -'Faux Affably Evil'
-5/5 -'Classic Villain'
-6/5 -'Complete Monster'
6s, are the extremes, 5s are the standard, 4s are still clear cut heroes and villains, but 3s and 2s are your main forms of Anti-Hero or Anti-Villain with the 3s specifically being what i see as the most traditional forms(ie a hero who is kinda bad, and a villain who is kinda good). while at the middle with the 1s and 0, you have the stuff that blurs the line so much they get categorized in either easily.
side note: i love how the trope 'Classical Anti-Hero' is essentially what we think of nowadays as the standard hero in a story, clearly a hero but one who has flaw(s) keeping them from being an idealized perfect hero, story is maybe about overcoming said flaw(s). its an Antihero by the original definition of that word. meanwhile classic villain is the disney villain; still clearly evil, but usually not a complete monster, at least at first.
I adore your channel. Your channel is informative to what I’m creating currently. I’m writing a fantasy novel and with this knowledge, I’ve created a gritty anti-villain antagonist based on his religious group’s intentions and backstory, which the main protagonist also focuses on. The main premise is throughout this saga of around 4-5 novels of the protagonist against another religious group. Both people who follow these religions are competing for each other in a crusader style manner because of their gods having a quarrel thousands of years ago, and still occurs to the very time of day the novel takes place. I have this titled as “Nova Chronicles” for now.
i think the game "Tales of Berseria" is a perfect example of anti-hero vs anti-villain. Velvet wanting revenge/take down to the Artrorius, while she seems kind of like a bad guy at first and even does alot of bad things to get what she wants, she still goes out her way to help people around here showing while she acts like she doesn't care she really does. On the surface Artrorius does good deeds and helps plenty of people all around, but the reality of it is his goal is to mind control and take away everyone of their own free will. While velvet's motives seem evil and selfish she later realizes she needs to stop him cause what he's wanting to do is wrong and realizes the people he's follow have been corrupted into believing that Artorius is saving them
Holy shit the timing, I literally just started that a few days ago
Not that Velvet sees herself as the hero. Most of the game, she didn't think herself the hero for going against Artorius. She just thought her revenge was worth it even if it made her a villain too.
I think a good example of an Anti Villain is Kars from Jojo's pt 2. He is a pillar man who wants to become the ultimate lifeform in order to shed his weakness to sunlight and rule over the world. His Antivillainy comes out in how he treats animals and most interestingly his subordinate. When we introduced to Kars, Wham is kneeling down, waiting for instruction, and when Kars walks past, he sets foot in Wham's shadow, and Wham reflexively kicks him in the face, then resumes kneeling and waits to accept punishment, and fascinatingly, Kars just laughs this off, saying he should've remembered this particular quirk of Wham's, letting him off the hook.
A better example from jojo would definitely be either Pucci or Valentine
Wamuu i think is better example than Kars. As he is very noble
@@PlayBoiKami most definitely valentine
@@helpmeplx1739 really? With the crimes he committed? Poor Lucy 😭😭
Incorrect, he just has some good moments- but that doesn't make him an anti-villain, there's no good motivation, method, or goal, or even overall personality, at least ONE thing has to be good, as other stated- Wammu, Pucci, and Valentine would be proper and legitimate examples of excellently written anti-villains.
I can see a "anti-villan" in the form of city wide parasite that give a lot of benifits but their goal is to cunsume the whole city using the people that it gave benifits to while making everyones lives better weirdly in the proces
Your animation around the 1min mark is beautiful. ty for your content!
This channel has inspired me to start learning more. I used to not enjoy learning as much but it’s actually great finding knowledge on your own and just absorbing great stories.
You’re not the only one its so interesting !
Learning is amazing! It's just that school does it in a poor way. So poor to the point where you hate it, or think you do. I was shocked when I realised that I LOVE to learn and study!
Maybe Berserk holds a good example since Guts and Griffith respectively seem like anti-hero and anti-villain up against each other in one story. You should talk about it
Nay. Griffith is irredeemable. He's the evil hiding behind a beautiful face archetype.
Yet he created a paradise kingdom where everyone could live save from the horrors he unleashed upon the world.@@SergioLeonardoCornejo
@@JohnnyElRed Which was done becuase of his own selfishness though
@@SergioLeonardoCornejogriffith is literally the best exemple of a anti-villain but berserk fans keep listening to reddit opinión and don't think about what the manga really is about
@@kalebburke8276the horrors alreasy existed in fact you could say the pre falconian nations were even worst. You won't listen😊
Now THIS is good content - I saw this pop up and thought it’d just be a review of anti-villains and whatnot, but this was FANTASTIC- You’ve earned a subscriber!
My favorite anti-villain is Elias from Person of Interest. From the beginning he's a powerful crime boss who wants to control as much of the city's underbelly as possible. But he's also incredibly honorable, and respectful towards the protagonists. As time goes on Elias and the protagonists sort of form an alliance. Elias tries not to kill people, offers John and Carter help in stopping other criminals, attempts to give his own life to save Anthony, and in the end gives everything he has left to try and save Harold.
Doctor Doom and Magneto at their best are pretty much Anti-villains. Doom is a tyrant and absolute ruler that none the less gives his people true peace as well as real prosperity with little down side. Magneto is holocaust survivor doing who sees peace between human and mutants like him as impossible, so he wants to Mutants to come out on top and win what he sees as the inevitable war.
I don't know about this. I wouldn't call what doom give his country peace, I'd call it order. And magneto has done it all, it think he still falls into the classic villain trope more often than anything else. A tragic sob story doesn't make an anti-villain.
@@cajunguy6502 yeah, both Magneto's methods and ideology are fucked up. He wants mutants to take over the world rather than them live in harmony with humans the way Professor X wants things, and he goes around doing horrible shit to people on a regular basis.
@@acecashman1237 This. I think we are getting the concept of a sympathetic villain mixed up with what an actual anti-villain should be. That is essentially a person who achieves evil ends through ostensibly good means. An example might be a high school girl who goes around making as many friends as possible, buttering them up, taking them on vacations and parties, really making them feel special and wanting to spend all their time with them, but she's doing it so that one particular person is isolated, left with nothing but loneliness and despair because everyone is to busy hanging out with her to pay her target any attention. That's the baseline for what I think an actual anti-villain should be based on. Not them being sympathetic or having understandable motivations. Its an entirely different kind of person to write about.
@@acecashman1237 exactly. Having a good sob story might make a character more sympathetic, it doesn't make them all less villainous. LOTS of people survived the Holocaust, most didn't go on the plan genocides of their own.
Except that a lot of humans in power actively seek out to exterminate all mutants. Magneto has a good point.
I think Soldier Boy from The Boys Season 3 is a perfect example of a good anti-villain. He’s likeable as a character and agrees to fight Homelander, the main villain, yet is still ultimately out for personal gain and will use questionable methods to achieve his goals. Walter White from Breaking Bad is another example.
He is an anti-hero, not an anti-villain. There's a difference, the top comment explained it well
Damn, I just made a comment about homelander but didn’t think about soldier boy
Walter white is only a good example from earlier episodes. He slips from anti-villain to straight villain.
What I like about Walter is he starts as an anti- hero, transitions to an anti-villain, and then just becomes a full on menace, before finally becoming the hero again
🍿
I'm really glad the youtube algorithm showed me this, honestly I waited for bondrewd from made in abyss cause I think he's also an really interesting Charakter that could have fit in these examples but it clear that you put a lot of time in the animation and research for this and the choosen Charakter are all perfect examples
Titan from Invincible fits this category perfectly, at least when he is working for Machine Head. He does things that a villain would, but in a heroic manner (killing villains is pretty common in that universe so it’s fine).
I believe that the *hardest thing is to write an interesting regular villain* (bad goals and bad methods). In the novel East of Eden (J. Steinbeck), the character of Cathy/Kate is a masterpiece example of a character of pure evil which retains a lot of depth.
The Joker (not counting the titular movie) is a pretty good example of a great pure villain.
Which is why regular villains tend to prevail more in audiovisual media.
Handsome Jack from Borderlands is also a wonderful example of a straight-up pure evil villain.
Thing is, evil doesn't have depth. All it cares about is itself. It isn't hard to write a narcissist, it's just hard to write a narcissist that people actually want in a story; there's a point when even rooting AGAINST the villain isn't enough to justify the negative feelings that arise from them being in the story.
Its actually pretty "easy" to make an interesting regular evil villain, you just need to make him charismatic.
I personally think a good example of Anti-Villainry is actually some iterations of Lex Luthor. His end goal is usually baseline human supremacy and the destruction of Superman and other meta-humans, which is morally wrong. But he often does this through non-evil means and most iterations of him he is genuinely very concerned for normal humans survival in a world full of powerful beings like Superman. These versions of Luthor often use good (or at least not bad) means and good motivations, but his intended ends are morally bad.
I wonder where another DC villain, The Shade, would also fit into this paradigm. He was a member of the Injustice Society of America, though less of a megalomaniac than some of his ISA cohorts. As I understand it, in the comics, he saw himself as the protector of his adopted home Opal City, even serving as its legitimately elected mayor for a bit. While he’s certainly not averse to killing, there are moral lines he won’t cross; and he’ll occasionally work with the good guys to take down a bigger bad (if it aligns with his own interests.) Of course, some writers (like Geoff Johns) have portrayed him more as an antihero; and by the final episode of the “Stargirl” TV series (which was co-created by Johns), he seemed to be a full-fledged ally/mentor to the JSA 2.0, if not an actual hero. (Though I suspect that if the series hadn’t been canceled after 3 seasons, he would have remained more of gray character.)
Buster Scruggs is also a great anti-villain.
Hey man love the content, your thumbnails always slap the hardest!
Just found this channel. The beginning animation you have is beautiful, and it made me smile. I’ll be sure to subscribe and see more of your stuff!
Welcome, you’re going to enjoy your time here!
The game dead by daylight you could argue has a ton of anti-villains. Many of the killers were people who experienced horrible trauma. The Nurse was driven mad with grief, The Wraith unwittingly murdered hundreds of innocent people, The Plague just wanted to heal her people, and The Huntress lost her mother, tried to be one herself, but couldn’t care for her “adopted” children. Now they’re forced to kill others so that The Entity doesn’t kill them too; their fractured state of mind made worse by it.
I think they fit more as tragic villains than fully-fledged anti-villains, but I don't know the lore.
@@coyraig8332 yes, some are tragic villains, others are straight up evil, others still are somewhere in the middle.
The entity could be a anti villain
@@tfordham13Entity has to be pure evil
@@JetstrussySam yes but he does good things
8:35 One example that came to mind is Shelly de Killer, from the Ace Attorney series.
He's a professional assassin who'll always make sure that the target is dead, along with making sure that his client is safe.
But if you betray him, then you’re the next target.
Shelly de Killer has got to be one of the best characters in the series because, sure, he's definitely not a hero, but he's just so darn polite about it. The epitome of "You are bad guy, but you are not bad guy."
more detailed spoilers:
We see the best of de Killer in AAI2, where he's not actually the one responsible, but instead an involved third party who actively helps Edgeworth throughout the game; most notably threatening a guard's life to ensure that Edgeworth is allowed to investigate a crime scene, and then goes off on his merry way once he learns what he needed to. Later on, he has a chat with Edgeworth one-on-one and gives *him* information about what he knows.
The intro to your videos is exceptional.
I just have to say this, bc I jus love your intro so much! Every time I see it I have a feeling like I am in a magical world
amon was a great character. it is too bad he was only given one season. i felt like i could relate to this guy in every perspective he was given.
Honestly the equalists should have been a lingering threat that appeared a cross all seasons
@@RaraZeCatyeah it would be kind of nice if after effects of it were still shown. But I guess anyone involved just dipped out once they realized their leader was a bender, and therefore a fraud, all along
Took away whatever genuine argument anyone could put up
I saw "Amon" and I had flashbacks to Yakuza.
Amon?
*Raise Monocle*
@@Suegiclahwait, is that a pair of glasses?
Comparing anti heroes and anti villains is another way of looking at the old saying "one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter"
The concept of anti-villain and anti-hero reminds me of Griffith and Guts from Berserk.
That Intro sequence was incredible. Nice Work!
I think Mr.Freeze is a good example of an anti-villain, he just want to save his wife, but he still put innocent lives in risk and doesn’t have remorse
I do not believe that take foundry can make such good videos in less than a week
Must be the Genius of the Tale-Bot
On a different note...What the fuck is up with UA-cam right now? I tried to target a comment above, but my answer always ended up below your comment. Reloading the page helped, but still...
@@r4nd0mguy99 yeah I don’t know what the fuck is happening
You are bad guy, but that does not mean you are bad guy
Perfect examples of:
Hero - Superman, Captain America
Anti-Hero - Punisher, Red Hood (Jason Todd)
Anti-Villian - Omni-man(Comics), Killmonger
Villian - Griffith, Darkseid