Yeah I'm in the majority camp here in saying that not only do i adore this episode but i still believe it's one of the best episodes of NuWho. It's so phenomenally done, Moffat really proved himself with this one after already having a great start with The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. It's the highlight of series 2 for me, although The Satan Pit 2-parter and the finale 2-parter are also great.
this episode would be a 5/5 for me if it wasn’t for the little nitpicks i have with it. I think the biggest is that the doctor is too human for me in this one. the fact that he actually gets a romantic relationship with Renette is very un-doctor to me. the horse is also cheesy for me and doesn’t really make sense other than that it’s super badass to smash through a mirror on a horse. But other than that, this episode is one of my favorites. it’s also super nostalgic for me so the monsters still have a creep factor.
What I don't like about this episode is that we've seen the relationship and feelings between Rose and the Doctor blossom, yet in this episode he suddenly falls for someone else and is even willing to leave Rose behind for her. Doesn't make sense at all. Moffat just wanted to write his version of The Time Traveler's Wife and completely ignored the context of the show it was in.
That just sort of put into words what I could never really articulate about this episode. The only thing I ever really remember about it is the line: “This is my lover the King of France.” “Yeah, well I’m the Lord of Time.” Otherwise it always just sort of disappears from my recollection of the second season.
The thing about Moffat episodes is that even the less good ones have some great individual lines. "What's a horse doing on a spaceship?" "Mickey, what's pre-revolutionary France doing on a spaceship? Get a little perspective." "Oh, look at what the cat dragged in, the oncoming storm..."
The ending always irritated me a bit. I mean, I know the story with Reinette had to end and she wasn't gonna travel with the Doctor, but what the Doctor did was so dumb. Surely, he had to have known going back and forth through the fireplace would mess up the time difference between them and stuff. He skipped YEARS of her life after being gone for about 2 minutes. Why did he not think this through? I remember thinking the first time I watched it that he was gonna go and get her in the TARDIS. I know there was some line somewhere about why they couldn't use the TARDIS in this situation, but it was arbitrary and wasn't really explained. When he came back and when back through the fireplace, I was just thinking "What the hell are you doing, Doctor? She's either gonna be really old and have spent most of her life waiting for you or she's dead!" And surprise! She died.
Yeah, this is my problem with the episode too. It's supposed to be an emotional moment but it's held back because it was caused by the Doctor being dumb. It's similar to Angels Take Manhattan, but at least here the fixed point that was created was more definitive.
I understand why it works - he was acting in the heat of the moment - but it's still stupid af that he didn't either take her with him when going through the fireplace initially or go back in the TARDIS. It would have been great for her to stick around for an episode or 2.
My biggest issue is that it appears The Doctor is willing to leave Rose and Mickey stranded in space. I can buy that The Doctor would be willing to give up his life as a time traveller to save Rounette, but he’d never abandon his companions. Unless he knew he’d be able to get back, which they could’ve hinted at but they didn’t, I just can’t buy it. Other than that, I loved this episode.
Remember The Parting of Ways? The TARDIS has fail-safes to bring his companions home if he's in danger or trapped somewhere. They established that earlier in the series.
I always disliked this story, although I can appreciate the clockwork monsters. I still don't buy into the idea that the Doctor would leave Rose and Mickey on a spaceship to stay with this woman who will obviously have died before he gets back through the fireplace.
One day, I would love for the Doctor to burst through a door in the same drunken state as in this episode and say "My God, Jim Morrison knows how to party!"
I am with you 100% on this one..... its never really connected with me either - storywise it should do and as you say for many people it does - but its not one I want to revisit - it kind of plays too loose with the Doctor emotionally for me especially when you think about the end of that series - having a totally different love interest stuck smack bang in the middle feels wrong to me - you almost feel that at the very end of the series (Bad Wolf Bay) should play out with Tennants line to Rose being "Rose Tyler........ I actually dint love you cos I was really deeply in love with someone else and quite prepared to abandon you on a spaceship and stay with her!" Doesnt work, does it...... Anyway - i dont feel it and I often avoid this story if possible - maybe I will give it a rewatch and see how I feel then.
This is an episode that I loved as a kid (The scene when the Doctor finds the clockwork robot under the bed scared me a lot!) but hate now.. Personally, I don't like the Doctor and Madame de Pompadour's relationship. I feel like this brilliant woman from history was just whittled down as some great fleeting romantic interest for the Doctor when she was so much more than that.. I hate that she's written to have grown up forever thinking of this man she met as a child and she thinks about him to the end of her life.. She's more than that.. it makes me really mad now.. I also hate it because the Doctor met her as a child and the next time he sees her he's kissing her and it just makes me very uncomfortable... I also don't like how Mickey and Rose are written in this episode. This is Mickey's first proper adventure in the TARDIS and I feel if Mickey and Rose were taken out of the story, it wouldn't change anything. They didn't really do anything and it makes me mad! All they did was stand around... get captured... stand around... There was no reason for them to be there and there SHOULD be a reason for them to be. They should have had more to do. I'm just not a fan of Moffat's work anymore... I really struggle to get through any of his episodes and if I rewatch doctor who I just skip them...
I think the whole thing between her and the doctor is creepy; she meets him when she's A CHILD and a few moments later he's making out with her. It's so typical for moffat though. He is not great at writing women and he sexualises female characters WAY too much ALL the damn time.
Retrospectively it's Moffat's manifesto for showrunner, since he sets up what will be the normality for his tenure; observations: 1. The companion line-up for this story is the prototype for Amy and Rory. There's a communication failure between Toby Whithouse and Moffat here. Toby ends School Reunion with The Doctor inviting Mickey on board and Rose is reticent about including him, but here Mickey appears to be Rose's guest, not the Doctor's. Interesting that no script editor picked this up and tried to get the two writers to agree. 2. The Doctor Dances! This is almost Moffat's agenda; it's clear what side Moffat was on in the great controversy over the Telemovie kiss; ironically the opposite side to his close colleague Mark Gattis who's own opinion is expressed in The Unquiet Dead as "You look beautiful considering you're human" similar to City of Death's "You're a very attractive woman, probably". Moffat is very strongly of the opinion that The Doctor is a sexual being and makes great effort to assert that as canon. Slight problem with this is in Series 3 Paul Cornell will get the chance to bring Human Nature to the small screen, and establishing the Doctor as a libidinous being in his Time Lord form undermines the central conceit that makes that story interesting. But this story is the prototype for The Doctor and River and even the Doctor and Liz the First or possibly even the 11th Doctor's obvious crush on Clara. RTD would tease at implying the Doctor possibly being romantically sexual, but Moffat is very assertively insistent that The Doctor definitely is romantically sexual and this is the episode where he firmly carves that into canon; moreso than simply the one liner about The Doctor dances in The Empty Child. I would infer that during the time the telemovie kiss was debated Moffat was staunchly in favour (although he may have believed it could have been done better with foreshadowing to naturalize it. It does come a bit out of nowhere in the telemovie), Gattis was against and RTD was indifferent but amused at the passion of those against and enjoyed provoking them even more, and these three positions manifest in their writing. 3. It's a fairy tale, and that will later become Moffat's motif stylistic choice certainly for his first three seasons, drawing from Tim Burton and Neil Gaiman as influences, in the same way as Hinchcliffe's influences were Amicus and Hammer. 4. This is the second time Moffat would use the tech carrying out it's programming dysfunctionally story rationale, and it's one he'll continue to revisit in Silence in the Library, Deep Breath, Smile and possibly some others. From his offerings for the RTD era I thought it would come up more often during his own tenure but he did seem to manage not to overuse it.
This one really worked for me at the time - especially as I had no love for series 2 (I still dismiss it almost totally and forget that GITF is even in it). But... now I haven't seen it in ages but I don't feel any particular draw to it anymore. Maybe it's just general Moffat fatigue (a lot of his tropes are in there like the Doctor interacting over someone's lifetime and tech gone bad etc). It's a well paced script and the end made me emotional and it's all tidied up well Euros Lyn's direction is very nice and it's got lots of bright colours, the design is lovely, it's one of Murray Gold's best score. I love the period mask design of the clockwork droids. In terms of the season 2 character arc, it really doesn't work. Rose doesn't want Mickey around and the Doctor adores Rose - yet along comes this episode and she's fine with Mickey and the Doctor dismisses Rose as a generic companion. I don't really buy the Doctor's sudden infatuation with Reinette. Tennant might have dated Sophia Myles as a result of this episode but the characters falling in love... I suppose it's suggested that her seeing inside his mind means that it creates a bond. Moffat was normally so good at writing plot hole covering lines but his "We can't use the TARDIS, we're part of the timeline" is a particularly poor one. Probably an 8/10 whereas I might have gone 10/10 in days gone by.
I should like The Girl in the Fireplace....but I don't. I don't hate it, by any means. I just don't particularly like it. Moffat had a thing about the Doctor popping in and out of a woman's life until she was all grown up and Reinette was the first, with River Song and Amy Pond to follow. It kind of worked in this instance, because the clockwork robots were creating the time zones, but it was just creepy for the other two. I also didn't really like the joke between Rose and the Doctor where Rose said something, "You're not keeping the horse!" and the Doctor replied, "Why not? I let you keep Mickey." No. Just....no. I've never liked the Doctor flirting with anyone because I've always got the impression he wasn't interested in romantic relationships and he could be (just from watching the classic series) asexual. New Who kind of buggered that up. Sophia Myles is a fine actress and she gives it her all here. Billie Piper can't seem to get rid of the cotton wool in her mouth - and that's not just a Doctor Who thing. I've seen her in other projects and she still talks like that. I love Mickey. Mickey is my sweet cinnamon roll and needs to be protected. I think he has the most character growth out of the trio as well. Rose was always strong, and being with the Doctor just made her stronger, but Mickey has real change and development when he lets go of Rose and helps her open the heart of the TARDIS, and then travels with the Doctor, and then ends up taking his counterpart's place in the alternate universe. He got a great ending, too, as we saw in The End of Time specials. Summed up, after this rambling comment, I think The Girl in the Fireplace is mostly meh.
@@dalekgarliccaan5177 It's actually not, since no-one is being oppressed and it applies to an individual not an actual race, but I didn't say her accent was the problem, I said she never got rid of the cotton wool in her mouth - which I hear underneath the accent. I have no problem with accents at all, except when i miss words - and that's what subtitles are for.
I used to remember this episode as one of my favourites of the RTD era but in a recent re-watch to compile my ranking of Moffat written episodes I found it didn’t match the high expectation my memory has of it. The ending is still fantastic but a lot of the first two thirds just didn’t do it for me like it once had and I found some of the dialogue cringe worthy.
I'm in the same boat as you. I see a lot of great ideas in this episode, and nothing really bugged me about it, but it just never stuck with me. I still don't know why.
Just rewatched it and I absolutely loved it. It gets straight into the action. The sets and costumes are great. The dialogue is funny. Acting of the main cast is amazing and the guest cast is fine. The music is well used and the concept is just cool. Two issues for me. 1 is the acting of Mme Pompadour herself but I get it, it's hard to be real while having to do the noble accent. The other is Mme Pompadour falling for the doctor instantly and just kissing him without any form of consent. So we're keeping some of the old sexism with the love at first sight and reversing the roles for the non consensual kissing. I've got my gripes but I've still absolutely loved it. It's funny, it's emotional, it's interesting. I want more!
I think my issue with the The Girl in the Fireplace is that I simply don't buy the Doctor and Reinette's love story. As far as we know, he spends, from his perspective, mere hours with her and then has seemingly no problem with abandoning the Tardis and his companions on an alien ship with no plan on how to get back. Even if we make the argument that he has plenty of time to figure SOMETHING out, that's not established and he expresses little to no concern whatsoever after he gets stuck. It feels very... not like the Doctor, even for Tennant, who was the most romantic and arguably the most impulsive of the Modern incarnations. I can't bring myself to believe he would be that careless with his Tardis and his friends over a woman he literally just met. The Doctor is known to make sacrifices to save others, sure, but if he was determined to go off and save Reinette by himself, the least he could have done was send Rose and Mickey home first, or somewhere safe. Nine had that whole emergency program he used in season 1 to save Rose, so I don't see why he couldn't have done that again. Instead, he just took off leaving her and Mickey wondering and worrying whether he would ever come back, and I hated that. I also think Moffat's obsession with young girls having the Doctor as an imaginary friend and then growing up and being sexually attracted to him is kind of weird. He did the same thing with Amy, but with her, at least it wasn't reciprocated and she grew past it. With Reinette, he made it seem like the Doctor was some grand focal point of her life until she was on her death bed even though they hardly spent any time together, and she only knew him so well because she went rooting through his mind without consent (notably after he made a pointed effort to be respectful of anything she didn't want him to see). Add in the fact that Rose and Mickey are completely sidelined for the whole story for no logical reason (keep in mind that this is Mickey's FIRST on-screen adventure as a full-fledged companion, and he does nothing), and the episode just rubs me the wrong way. It's very stylish, the plot works nicely, and there are some super fun moments, but imo it's not Moffat's strongest episode.
Could it possibly be something to do with the "going back in time to visit a historical figure" thing that you've mentioned in the past you feel cheapens the character of the Doctor? but then, it could just be that this episode was a okaygood Episode in a season that had some good, and some REAL stinkers in terms of the stories available, and this one just doesn't have anything that is notable compared to the others? I dunno, just speculating I kinda almost always remember it because of the "I'm the doctor, and I just snogged the Madam de Pompadour" line... which while cheesy as heck, still had a certain Tennent-ness
I think I'd have liked that line a lot more if it wasn't happy: if the tone was more sort of "oh, that just happened..." It's still a funny line, but you would have kept the alienness with the Doctor.
Another great review. It’s ok to not always click with an episode. You understand that it’s good objectively and that’s more than enough. Mickey really starts to come into his own on this adventure. His excitement and curiosity starting to blossom as he explores with Rose. I actually really appreciate the moment at the end, where 10 dwells on the death of Mme de Pompadour and Mickey understands that he needs time to process his grief, in the same way he grieved Rose when she was gone with 9 for a year. It’s a nice contrast to Rose, who is still unclear about the depth of feelings 10 had for Reinette. I’m always a fan of the historical episodes and this one doesn’t fail at being a jolly good adventure.
One of the first Who episodes I ever watched. The reasons I like it may be different from other people. I liked the music near the end, very sad and subdued. The design of the outside of the ship was made to look like the winding key for an antique clock. And I liked that the Doctor never found out why the robots needed Reinette, the reveal of the ship's name at the end made me gasp. I don't mind the formal language, because it was appropriate in this case.
I think its because this episode leans hard, arguably more then any other doctor who episodes, into the 10th doctor is the most dashingly wonderful man and any woman would be lucky to gain even a moment of his attention. And I say that as someone who loved this episode when I first saw this.
Those 4 Moffat stories prior to his becoming showrunner were absolute master pieces. This one is a close second to Blink; both of which blew me away. The ones that don't grab me as much are the two 2 parters starting with the empty child and silence of the library. I can recognise they're great but I come away with a similar feeling with then as the Council does with girl in the fireplace.
My thought is that Renet is relatively new. She's established in-episode as sort of a romantic interest, but she's still only introduced in this episode. By contrast, Rose has had time to get to that level with the doctor. The Doctor gets to that level with Renet faster, so there's sort of an off feeling that this was unearned. That's how I feel, anyways; don't know if that applies to you.
I was flipping through channels one evening and came across the banana daiquiri scene. I last watched Doctor Who during the original run of the Mind Thieves (sic? It's the one with the substitute companion). My nightmares were so bad from that one -- Medusa -- that my Mom had forbidden me from watching it. I immediately went "Doctor Who!" Nearly 40 years and one scene let me know what I was watching. That's the power of Girl in the Fireplace for me.
@Council of Geeks, you're not alone. I too love this story but I tend to forget about it as well. I find a vast majority of Series 2 to be often forgettable.
I thought it was common knowledge that this episode, while decent, was always Moffat's black sheep of the Russell T Davies era with most of the praise being lavished on The Empty Child and Blink instead. I think it's because Moffat tried to go for something more whimsical as opposed to straight up scary with this one, and Moffat has never written whimsical stories particularly well.
Each to their own - At least you didn't hate this story, that might have set the fanbase on you. For me, this is actually Moffat's best work in RTD's era and the joint best story of Series 2 alongside Impossible Planet/Satan Pit. I never connected with Empty Child/Doctor Dances so there's my unpopular Doctor Who opinion, and whilst I recognise the Library 2-parter is a good story, I'd much rather go to this. With Blink, so many people have claimed its the best modern who story, the best Moffat story, the best 10 story etc, so many opinions that I disagree with, that slightly, I have started to resent Blink for it, which is a shame. I think I need to re-watch Blink and see what my opinion is, in a much fairer way after that.
"At least you didn't hate this story, that might have set the fanbase on you." - That would be pretty foolish. Why take somebody's opinions on media personally - especially if you aren't the one who made it?
Popo Bawa no one said it was logical, it just happens. Fans get very “passionate” and when someone disagrees they can be aggressive. It is silly but it happens.
as an individual story, this is a fantastic episode. it also has one of my favourite moments in season 2 (you're so THICK. mr thick thickety thick face) however I don't like how it fits in to the continuity of the story for the doctor's character and the way it sidelines rose at such an important part of their relationship together
As a 54 year old from the UK I have been a fan of Doctor Who since the beginning of the Jon Pertwee era all the way through to the Jodie Whittaker tenure we are now in. I like your reviews as you engage with each episode and don't only go into an out and out hate fest but also look for the good bits too. And just because you don't like something you don't completely write it off. It's very refreshing in a Doctor Who reviewer. Just a couple of general things I'd like to say. The four best Doctors in my opinion and in no particular order of preference are Tom Baker, David Tennant, Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi. I also think, although this is only conjecture, that Jodie Whittaker's first season has perhaps been a bit lacklustre because the budget has been cut. It seems that the stories are very light on special effects and fairly Earthbound. I think this may account for the three historical episodes. As for the rest, I think that maybe Chris Chibnall has had to write some fairly lame storylines in order to keep within the smaller budget. This is only a theory, but I believe it could be true. Please keep the excellent reviews coming. Many thanks and best regards, Dave.
You've pretty much just summed up how I feel about this episode. I like each component individually, but as a whole it is forgettable as, for me, the relationship between the Doctor and Renée barely scratches the surface. I think part of the problem was that the focus was split between that relationship and the relationship between Rose and Mickey as it's his first time in the Tardis when we needed the focus to be one or the other as neither fully got a chance to be explored in this episode.
I think this is the first real episode where they start playing the love interest for the Doctor thing so whilst it's a ok/good episode if you're not down with that whole thread then this is the start of what gripes us the most.
I agree 100% with what you said about the actress for Madame de Pompadour having to speak that formal way. It always made her character feel more one-dimensional and, well, robotic to me. I feel like my inability to get attached to her is what ruins this episode for me. There are still lines I love and I love the scene where Ten pretends to be drunk, but the episode failed to convince me Madame de Pompadour really loved the Doctor and didn’t just love the idea of him while also telling me she loved him and waited for him her whole life, which in itself could’ve had its own tragedy to it if it had felt like that was what it was going for, but it didn’t to me at least.
I completely agree with your points. I like practically all the parts of the story but I don't like it as a whole and I'm not sure what to think of the story in the end! 😀
Ahh one of the KEY episodes to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who. In this episode we get to know (again; for the second time (out of the "FIVE"!!! major ones); first time was bk in "Silver Nemesis" and Lady Penforte; being exposed to the timevortex; the fourth one was in (the Doctor and the Wardrobe-Widow; the fifth time was in Journey to the Center of the TARDIS/Name of the Doctor )) Yeah I skipped the THIRD one as that is the MOST IMPORTANT one to last. The timewindows, is one of the key aspects to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who to date. (1963-today) How and why? Ok lets begin with explaining the whole woman gets exposed to a timewindow/timevortex thing and the remembers timelines that never was bit due to that. The above is pretty easy to understand once one think about it; Get exposed for a long time to a low dose of timewindow/timevortex and you begin remember lives that never was.... OR!!!!! is it really lives that never was... We know from the time Clara was exposed to the timewortex (high dose/short time) that she really expirienced a whole day (in an alternate timeline) that later would "collapse" due to (reasons I wont go into here; but lets just say there is a reason that requires a deep understanding of the following; (a futurepast event gets prevented ; but not the one would obviously think off; (the original birth of the "current" Doctor; but as said that requires a deeper understanding then what I have gotten to yet)) Same happend in the serial; Silver Nemesis where Lady Penforte also got exposed for a short time to a high dose of the timewortex) = Pretty much what happend to Madame Pompadore and the Widow (in the Wardrobe special) ............... So how and why is the above leading to the full understanding of EVERYTHING in Doctor Who since 1963? ..... The Third example I skipped over: .... First rewatch minisode "Good Night" from around 1:35 and forward for about one minute and realise that somehow Amy Williams is also remembering a life that never was... & then remember she grew up next to the crack in her wall. = Amy Pond was exposed for a long time to a timewortex ("behind") the crack in her wall; (low exposure/long time) :....... "Problem" (during series 5) was that we as a viewers never got told when we saw either this or that Amy´s life. = as in the case of episode "Eleventh hour" we never got told that the "Doctor" jumped between two diffrent Universetimelines (twice in that episode; we got told he was late yes but never the actual reason for it;) ................ This we where told about a bit earlier in the show in the episode "Journey´s End" during the TARDIS being dragged off to to the Dalen crucible scene; (As it there was told diffrent Universetimelines dont run exactly the same in thier timeflows) ............. So we now know Amy had two diffrent lives mixed together during series 5: and we never got told about it: = this explains like why no ducks in a duck pond/Mel growing up with Amy/Rory.... BUT it also explains something that was so very cleverly well hidden; Rory never existed in one of the Universetimelines... = the Wedding dress we saw in the end of episode "Eleventh hour" was for a wedding with a man Amy never had meet. WTF?!!!! Yeah,,,,this was super cleverly hidden. But remember how in "Pandorica opens/Big Bang" how the Doctors enemies stole Amys memories... They got the memories of BOTH her lives...and the memory of Rory thru that... =then when the Pandorica/TARDIS "casued" the "Big Bang" and everything that existed in that moment of the Universetimeline (June 26th 2010) got "copied" over to the new Universetimeline. (= the only true fixed point that always have to remain the same as it is the moment for its creation (in that Universetimeline; so should the birth of the person that caused the Big Bang ever be prevented that Universetimeline would collpase) = What really happend in episode "Fathers day" the birth of the Doctor got prevented in the futurepast (with Pete Tyler remaining alive) = the Universetimeline began to collapse until the timeline was corrected and as such returned the Doctor to life. (this took place in the Universetimeline where Gallifrey once "fell" (the Universetimeline we all know as the classic series Universetimeline) = and as the same thing that happend in "Fathers day" also happend in the begining of episode "Rings of Akahaten" the birth of the person that would become the Doctor was made possible (with the car not hitting Claras father/hidden voice) = Clara is the "current" new Universetimeline (that was spawned into existance on June 26th 2010) Doctor; = We can from this begin see how EVERYTHING in Doctor Who begins to start make sense... ... Galifrey was taken from the classic UT, thru the void & into the new UT where it is now. = This explains all the shows intros since the 9th; with the TARDIS jumping between timewortexes; (all this have been planned since atleast the 7th Doctor) = Everytime we have seen somehting wedding related in the show the TARDIS have switched Universetimeline (since end of series 2) where the Big Bang was super cleverly hidden outside the TARDIS (its in the 10ths wording during the 10th says goodbye to Rose scene) ... Etc etc... And there is more...ofc....but that my firends is a start....
On the actress speaking so formal. I thought that showed her character that even in these high stakes moments she was still going to stay true and formal to these clock robots that were threatening her life. I actually like the moment in the episode when the bots are attacking and everyone one is panicking. And she just scolds them and says we are French we are royalty, we are going to handle this calmly.
Kathryn Causey The reason it didn’t work for me is that with her being so formal and put together, she just didn’t manage to sell to me that she really loved the Doctor rather than loving the idea of him, especially with how she seemed to romanticize him and feel sympathetic towards him after seeing into his mind. There is tragedy in the idea that she had been infatuated but believed she was truly in love and spent all that time waiting, but it didn’t seem like it was going for that to me so it just didn’t hit me the way it wanted to at the end. Not that because she was so proper she couldn’t have genuinely cared for him, just that because of it she couldn’t convince me of it in the time she had on screen.
@@nicolev.3532 well she did just love the idea of him. She had only met him three times in her life. She had idealized him in her head. She did romanticize him. But to be far so have some companions like Amy.
I must watch much more period dramas than you do. The formal language of the upper class goes all the way down to their core. Like you, I thought this story parallels the Amy Pond story in many ways. This is not my number one show, but I liked it quite a lot.
When you brought up Unpopular Opinions near the end, it made me think how it's kind of impossible to really have a Doctor Who Unpopular Opinion because of just how many different takes people have on the show. Like I've seen people rush to defend some otherwise widely hated episodes or even whole eras, things like that
I am so glad I am not the only one who never connected with this episode, as I always feel like the odd one out when it comes it. I can't pinpoint what it is either, at first I thought "oh I first watched it when I was in my shipping days of the Doctor and Rose and that's why.", but I have come back to it so many times over the years and have grown out of that shipper's headspace and I still just don't connect. It even has story elements I love like the historical aspect, focusing on a lesser known but interesting historical figure, the whole concept of the ship. I also really like the idea of the Doctor coming back to late but he thinks he's only been gone a moment, this was a nice way to introduce that idea here then bring it back with Amy later. Gah, I can't but wish I could explain why I feel this way, but just everytime I watch it I'm just like okay that was fine.
You are trying too hard to figure out why an episode hits the right notes or not for you. Remember, Father's Day was perhaps the first DW story to bring a genuine tear to my eye, but for you, not so much, whereas you were a blubbering mess for Demons of the Punjab in which I didn't care enough for the companions to be affected or care. Whatever its flaws, The Girl In The Fireplace did more for me to care for Madame Pompadour in that single episode than Chibnall got me to feel for, say, Yaz, in an entire season. Hell, I was more interested and cared for Sally Sparrow in her one-off Blink, or even Elton in the divisive Love and Monsters. Shows you that having a great script really is a separate issue from great characters and actors who can pull it off.
There's a lot to like in this episode. But for me too, something didn't sit right. I wonder if I missed something about her being ill. But, the Doctor coming through in time to see her hearse leaving, felt completely out of the blue. While sad, the Doctor didn't seem surprised. I understand the different speeds of the time streams. I suppose, the reveal of the ship's name wasn't a compelling twist for me. There's a jarring set of tones, too. A crew dismembered by the robots, mixed with a romance, and comedy. David is excellent, subtle and emotive, but poignant and horror don't easily mix.
My 1st Tennant episode after the disappointment of Ecclestone's departure, only because it was before the Sarah Jane episode on that DVD. Tennant never appealed to me as the Doctor until he left the role, a bit like his father in law. I don't know why, it's just me.
I love this episode, I really do, but in terms of Moffat written episodes in RTD'S era, this is his weakest. I think why you can't connect with this story is that I think this story is far more suited to the 8th Doctor rather than the 10th. I think this sort of magical, romantic structure fits towards the romantic, fun loving yet grumpy Doctor, which I don't personally find 10 to be a romantic Doctor. Besides my head canon being an 8th Doctor story rather than a 10th, I still really like this story.
I find that each time I watch this I have a different reaction. It is well done, and for Madame herself the sequence is quite sad. But that being said, knowing as much as I do about that era in French history and the whole "wife and official mistress are besties" and "official mistress dutiful and attentive to her king but in love with time traveling alien" it just doesn't add up.
I thought there was very much a wasted opportunity with Mickey, and thought he would have made a great, more long-running traveling companion for the Doctor along with Rose. They could have had him stay onboard the TARDIS, and have Jake be the one that travels to our version of Earth in Army of Ghosts, and tell Rose about the Cyberman planning on invading Earth through the void, rather than Mickey. They could have potentially had him continue traveling with the Doctor in Series three after Rose became separated from him, and ended up living in the parallel version of Earth with her mother and its version of Pete Tyler. Martha could have been introduced as a new companion, and rather than her being in love with the Doctor, she becomes romantically involved with Mickey, leading up to leaving the TARDIS with him after they had fallen in love, and they continue their romantic relationship on Earth.
I love this episode (and it makes me cry all the tears), but in retrospect & with knowledge of Moffat’s writing over this and other shows the Dr’s relationship with Mme de Pompadour feels so creepy. When I was younger I was able to dismiss it b/c I basically ignored all romance in all media, but it stands out to me much more now. The episode still holds a special place for me though, one of the first Dr Who episodes to make me cry on multiple rewatches! Due in large part to the phenomenal reading of the letter at the end. Ow.
I FINALLY got around to seeing this episode since they are available on Max - and I don’t get what all the fuss is about either ?? The horse jump through the mirror is a big “The Doctor saves the day” climax moment, but the story resolution after that is very twisty wisty and makes no sense. Definitely a let down.
I'm glad I'm not alone when it comes to this one; it falls in that category of the whole being less than the sum of its parts. It certainly has all the elements, yet somehow it isn't memorable for me.
I liked the episode and I did as a child too, but I just rewatched it and I find so many makes no sense and leaves so many questions. Like, I get why mid episode they couldn't visit her but why not after? Also why does he leave her telling her to watch the stars and then act surprise when he came back and it was 5 years later and she was dead. LIke he knows the time holes worked like that? It would be no time for them but years for her. Also, sorry, but how is it realistic that the space ship is named after a 18th Century person when it's three thousand years in our future?? Also what happened to the romance with Rose and why did he think it was okay to threaten the possibility of stranding her and Mickey on the spaceship?
I think that the clock robots are creepy. They were creepy in this episode and they were creepy in Capaldis first episode. The way they move and act, it’s just creepy. Madame Pompadour is quite good, the best parts is her as a young girl. That actor was a good child actor. But I think that the episode feels like it’s a filler. A good filler, but still a filler.
No, I'm with you. This episode is good but it never resonates with me for some unknown reason. Thought I was the only who felt the same way! The music is good in this episode, though.
Ahh one of the KEY episodes to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who. In this episode we get to know (again; for the second time (out of the "FIVE"!!! major ones); first time was bk in "Silver Nemesis" and Lady Penforte; being exposed to the timevortex; the fourth one was in (the Doctor and the Wardrobe-Widow; the fifth time was in Journey to the Center of the TARDIS/Name of the Doctor )) Yeah I skipped the THIRD one as that is the MOST IMPORTANT one to last. The timewindows, is one of the key aspects to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who to date. (1963-today) How and why? Ok lets begin with explaining the whole woman gets exposed to a timewindow/timevortex thing and the remembers timelines that never was bit due to that. The above is pretty easy to understand once one think about it; Get exposed for a long time to a low dose of timewindow/timevortex and you begin remember lives that never was.... OR!!!!! is it really lives that never was... We know from the time Clara was exposed to the timewortex (high dose/short time) that she really expirienced a whole day (in an alternate timeline) that later would "collapse" due to (reasons I wont go into here; but lets just say there is a reason that requires a deep understanding of the following; (a futurepast event gets prevented ; but not the one would obviously think off; (the original birth of the "current" Doctor; but as said that requires a deeper understanding then what I have gotten to yet)) Same happend in the serial; Silver Nemesis where Lady Penforte also got exposed for a short time to a high dose of the timewortex) = Pretty much what happend to Madame Pompadore and the Widow (in the Wardrobe special) ............... So how and why is the above leading to the full understanding of EVERYTHING in Doctor Who since 1963? ..... The Third example I skipped over: .... First rewatch minisode "Good Night" from around 1:35 and forward for about one minute and realise that somehow Amy Williams is also remembering a life that never was... & then remember she grew up next to the crack in her wall. = Amy Pond was exposed for a long time to a timewortex ("behind") the crack in her wall; (low exposure/long time) :....... "Problem" (during series 5) was that we as a viewers never got told when we saw either this or that Amy´s life. = as in the case of episode "Eleventh hour" we never got told that the "Doctor" jumped between two diffrent Universetimelines (twice in that episode; we got told he was late yes but never the actual reason for it;) ................ This we where told about a bit earlier in the show in the episode "Journey´s End" during the TARDIS being dragged off to to the Dalen crucible scene; (As it there was told diffrent Universetimelines dont run exactly the same in thier timeflows) ............. So we now know Amy had two diffrent lives mixed together during series 5: and we never got told about it: = this explains like why no ducks in a duck pond/Mel growing up with Amy/Rory.... BUT it also explains something that was so very cleverly well hidden; Rory never existed in one of the Universetimelines... = the Wedding dress we saw in the end of episode "Eleventh hour" was for a wedding with a man Amy never had meet. WTF?!!!! Yeah,,,,this was super cleverly hidden. But remember how in "Pandorica opens/Big Bang" how the Doctors enemies stole Amys memories... They got the memories of BOTH her lives...and the memory of Rory thru that... =then when the Pandorica/TARDIS "casued" the "Big Bang" and everything that existed in that moment of the Universetimeline (June 26th 2010) got "copied" over to the new Universetimeline. (= the only true fixed point that always have to remain the same as it is the moment for its creation (in that Universetimeline; so should the birth of the person that caused the Big Bang ever be prevented that Universetimeline would collpase) = What really happend in episode "Fathers day" the birth of the Doctor got prevented in the futurepast (with Pete Tyler remaining alive) = the Universetimeline began to collapse until the timeline was corrected and as such returned the Doctor to life. (this took place in the Universetimeline where Gallifrey once "fell" (the Universetimeline we all know as the classic series Universetimeline) = and as the same thing that happend in "Fathers day" also happend in the begining of episode "Rings of Akahaten" the birth of the person that would become the Doctor was made possible (with the car not hitting Claras father/hidden voice) = Clara is the "current" new Universetimeline (that was spawned into existance on June 26th 2010) Doctor; = We can from this begin see how EVERYTHING in Doctor Who begins to start make sense... ... Galifrey was taken from the classic UT, thru the void & into the new UT where it is now. = This explains all the shows intros since the 9th; with the TARDIS jumping between timewortexes; (all this have been planned since atleast the 7th Doctor) = Everytime we have seen somehting wedding related in the show the TARDIS have switched Universetimeline (since end of series 2) where the Big Bang was super cleverly hidden outside the TARDIS (its in the 10ths wording during the 10th says goodbye to Rose scene) ... Etc etc... And there is more...ofc....but that my firends is a start....
I liked parts of this episode, but overall, it requires the Doctor to be really, really stupid. Every time he leaves and comes back he seems equally surprised by the fact years have passed when he leaves for a few minutes.
You didn’t hate it. I think itself would have benefited more if it was a little longer maybe focus on Rose and Mickey a little more, then possibly show more sense of the Doctor and Rennet’s interaction.
I love this epp. I think we all resonate with Diff things so perhaps the formality of the language and other things you spoke about hampered that for you. It has a romantacism that was very much present for Tennant's Dr throughout his time as the Dr
Only good New Who episodes are Blink, Girl In The Fireplace and Dalek. In that order. This episode made all the more by the fact that “the girl” and Doctor were dating in real life, no acting involved there.
The first time I watched this episode I liked it. Alot. Now not so much. It has some good moments but there's two reason why I dislike it. One - Ten feels really out of character. He reminds me alot of eleven. Not surprising considering it Moffat who wrote this. But I dont like that. Second reason - Knowing what I know now about doctor who this episode feels like Amy Ponds entire storyline squeezed into one episode. She meets the doctor as a child. He saves her from the monster. Goes away and doesn't come back for years. She is attracted to him at the same time as she has another guy. In the end ~spoilers~ she dies. She is the girl who waited. Waited for the doctor. Get a new script Moffat. No I can't say I like this episode.
Ahh one of the KEY episodes to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who. In this episode we get to know (again; for the second time (out of the "FIVE"!!! major ones); first time was bk in "Silver Nemesis" and Lady Penforte; being exposed to the timevortex; the fourth one was in (the Doctor and the Wardrobe-Widow; the fifth time was in Journey to the Center of the TARDIS/Name of the Doctor )) Yeah I skipped the THIRD one as that is the MOST IMPORTANT one to last. The timewindows, is one of the key aspects to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who to date. (1963-today) How and why? Ok lets begin with explaining the whole woman gets exposed to a timewindow/timevortex thing and the remembers timelines that never was bit due to that. The above is pretty easy to understand once one think about it; Get exposed for a long time to a low dose of timewindow/timevortex and you begin remember lives that never was.... OR!!!!! is it really lives that never was... We know from the time Clara was exposed to the timewortex (high dose/short time) that she really expirienced a whole day (in an alternate timeline) that later would "collapse" due to (reasons I wont go into here; but lets just say there is a reason that requires a deep understanding of the following; (a futurepast event gets prevented ; but not the one would obviously think off; (the original birth of the "current" Doctor; but as said that requires a deeper understanding then what I have gotten to yet)) Same happend in the serial; Silver Nemesis where Lady Penforte also got exposed for a short time to a high dose of the timewortex) = Pretty much what happend to Madame Pompadore and the Widow (in the Wardrobe special) ............... So how and why is the above leading to the full understanding of EVERYTHING in Doctor Who since 1963? ..... The Third example I skipped over: .... First rewatch minisode "Good Night" from around 1:35 and forward for about one minute and realise that somehow Amy Williams is also remembering a life that never was... & then remember she grew up next to the crack in her wall. = Amy Pond was exposed for a long time to a timewortex ("behind") the crack in her wall; (low exposure/long time) :....... "Problem" (during series 5) was that we as a viewers never got told when we saw either this or that Amy´s life. = as in the case of episode "Eleventh hour" we never got told that the "Doctor" jumped between two diffrent Universetimelines (twice in that episode; we got told he was late yes but never the actual reason for it;) ................ This we where told about a bit earlier in the show in the episode "Journey´s End" during the TARDIS being dragged off to to the Dalen crucible scene; (As it there was told diffrent Universetimelines dont run exactly the same in thier timeflows) ............. So we now know Amy had two diffrent lives mixed together during series 5: and we never got told about it: = this explains like why no ducks in a duck pond/Mel growing up with Amy/Rory.... BUT it also explains something that was so very cleverly well hidden; Rory never existed in one of the Universetimelines... = the Wedding dress we saw in the end of episode "Eleventh hour" was for a wedding with a man Amy never had meet. WTF?!!!! Yeah,,,,this was super cleverly hidden. But remember how in "Pandorica opens/Big Bang" how the Doctors enemies stole Amys memories... They got the memories of BOTH her lives...and the memory of Rory thru that... =then when the Pandorica/TARDIS "casued" the "Big Bang" and everything that existed in that moment of the Universetimeline (June 26th 2010) got "copied" over to the new Universetimeline. (= the only true fixed point that always have to remain the same as it is the moment for its creation (in that Universetimeline; so should the birth of the person that caused the Big Bang ever be prevented that Universetimeline would collpase) = What really happend in episode "Fathers day" the birth of the Doctor got prevented in the futurepast (with Pete Tyler remaining alive) = the Universetimeline began to collapse until the timeline was corrected and as such returned the Doctor to life. (this took place in the Universetimeline where Gallifrey once "fell" (the Universetimeline we all know as the classic series Universetimeline) = and as the same thing that happend in "Fathers day" also happend in the begining of episode "Rings of Akahaten" the birth of the person that would become the Doctor was made possible (with the car not hitting Claras father/hidden voice) = Clara is the "current" new Universetimeline (that was spawned into existance on June 26th 2010) Doctor; = We can from this begin see how EVERYTHING in Doctor Who begins to start make sense... ... Galifrey was taken from the classic UT, thru the void & into the new UT where it is now. = This explains all the shows intros since the 9th; with the TARDIS jumping between timewortexes; (all this have been planned since atleast the 7th Doctor) = Everytime we have seen somehting wedding related in the show the TARDIS have switched Universetimeline (since end of series 2) where the Big Bang was super cleverly hidden outside the TARDIS (its in the 10ths wording during the 10th says goodbye to Rose scene) ... Etc etc... And there is more...ofc....but that my firends is a start....
I know people love this ep but it didn’t quite work for me. My reaction is the same as yours. Intellectually I get it, but it didn’t quite hit me emotionally. I think part of it is Moffats wrote it for Nine, and he didnt really know Ten yet. He also didn’t seem to be aware that RTD was going for a near love story with Rose and Ten. So this seemed a little off within this point of the series. Just...like a shoe that doesn’t quite fit. I also felt the reason given for why they couldn’t use the TARDIS was not great. I think Reinette would have been a great companion at another point in the series or this would have worked well in one of the doctor’s solo times. I did like the formal language... But otherwise I agree with you
Cranky Grandma I didn’t know it was written for Nine! I actually think it would’ve worked for me better with him. (And I’m saying this as someone whose fave doctor is a tie between Tennant and Capaldi, not hating on Tennant’s Doctor at all)
From the review and from some comments, there seem to be a lot of romance-phobic Doctor Who fans. As if romance is something rare and strange and never happens in reality. And god forbid if it happens to the Doctor! I even saw a comment saying that there was no real romance between Reinette and the Doctor. I think the commentator would insist even if they were explicitly shown to be having sex on screen (which was heavily implied anyway).
I don't deny that it's there. I won't even claim that it shouldn't be or is somehow wrong. But for me personally, I still don't like it. Because it's not why I'm here. And "the romantic Doctor" is not an angle I have any interest in.
@@CouncilofGeeks Fair enough and each to their own. It just puzzles me that some viewers, while they love the strong emotional bond if it doesn’t include a sexual element (see Capaldi/Clara, Smith/Amy), as long as there is a single kiss they are repulsed almost. To me the above are indistinguishable: the bond, attachment to, and need for another being (human or not) is as powerful, whether friend or lover. People even accept the sexual element alone (see Jack flirting with and kissing the Doctor and Rose). It is just the combination that seems unacceptable, as if there is an “anti-romance” stereotype in today’s world.
@@CouncilofGeeks I have to say that I personally love that Moffatt dared insert romantic/sexual elements, and he manages this pretty well without falling into cliché or cheap romance. I wish he hadn’t stopped during the Capaldi era, and I wish they do this with the female Doctor too (yet another stereotype: women leaders cannot/shouldn’t have a male sidekick who has romantic feelings for them).
Same boat. Enjoyable but somehow forgettable episode. Personally, I always thought it was because Rose was OOC in it, especially compared to the last episode.
Leslie Bevis she’s being translated to English though, so doesn’t it make more sense for her to have a French accent than a random British one when she isn’t British? Or are you suggesting you think the reason everyone always sounds British in DW is because the Tardis makes everyone else hear the accent they’re used to? I guess I could buy that headcanon.
Jeanne-Antoinette Poisson was born in Paris, had two french parents and a french step-father... She did however advise Louis XV to unite with the austrians in the Seven-Year's-War. You may have her confused with Marie-Antoinette, the wife of Louis XVI, who was Austrian (and of House of Habsburg decent). Or Louis XIV's wife, Maria Theresa of Spain... who was the daughter of Spain's King Felipe IV and France's Elisabeth Of France (herself the eldest daughter of King Henry IV of France), and also of Austrian royal decent on both her parent's sides (making her a Princess of the House of Habsburg) - because royalties back in the day were quite the interesting bunch :)
I think this is my favourite Nu Who story - certainly it's in my top 3. I like seeing Micky as a companion - I agree I'd have liked to see him travel with them for longer. The explanation / reveals of what the robots are / are tying to do and how ("we did not have the parts") are nicely handled and their ultimate aim is a logical conclusion to the work they started. Overall I think it's just a great story to watch with everything tying together in a very satisfying way. Also a special mention for the music in this episode - has a music box feel that ties into the clockwork theme of the episode really nicely - adds a lot to the episode for me but don't hear many other people mention this.
One of the reasons I remember this ep so fondly is I got to Nu-Who late and marathoned the early seasons. After a more Miss than Hit season 1 and a Christmas special I despised, hitting a solidly good episode with interesting premise felt like a step up.
You and I are very different in age, in nationality, in lifestyle, and so on and so forth, but you often say more or less what I would have said, but better. There were things I liked about this episode too, but it doesn't really come together for me, and I think it worked better with A. Pond. It helped that Ms Pond wasn't a historical character; I don't think that making the girl in the fireplace into a historical character was a good idea. It's as though Moffat thought that, hey, if you go back into history, of course you're going to meet some historical character; which of course isn't true, you're almost certain to meet someone that no-one in the present has ever heard of.
Resolution review out tomorrow.
Excitement ensues
OK, cool.
Thanks I was just about to ask for that.
Council of Geeks
🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀
........ UNIT IS GONE...........
🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀
"You're so thick!
You are Mr Thick thickety thick face from Thicktown, Thickania!
And so is your dad."
Drunk!Ten was a blast.
Second best roast of dr who ever.(first being when the daleks roasted the cybermen in doomsday)
@@ingonyama70
Yes I wish Moffat got to write for Ten more
Yeah I'm in the majority camp here in saying that not only do i adore this episode but i still believe it's one of the best episodes of NuWho. It's so phenomenally done, Moffat really proved himself with this one after already having a great start with The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. It's the highlight of series 2 for me, although The Satan Pit 2-parter and the finale 2-parter are also great.
Currently, it's my favourite Doctor Who episode ever.
this episode would be a 5/5 for me if it wasn’t for the little nitpicks i have with it. I think the biggest is that the doctor is too human for me in this one. the fact that he actually gets a romantic relationship with Renette is very un-doctor to me. the horse is also cheesy for me and doesn’t really make sense other than that it’s super badass to smash through a mirror on a horse. But other than that, this episode is one of my favorites. it’s also super nostalgic for me so the monsters still have a creep factor.
Re:the horse-his name is susan and he wants you to respect his life choices
What I don't like about this episode is that we've seen the relationship and feelings between Rose and the Doctor blossom, yet in this episode he suddenly falls for someone else and is even willing to leave Rose behind for her. Doesn't make sense at all. Moffat just wanted to write his version of The Time Traveler's Wife and completely ignored the context of the show it was in.
Thank god, I hate the Rose Tenth soap opera.
That just sort of put into words what I could never really articulate about this episode. The only thing I ever really remember about it is the line:
“This is my lover the King of France.”
“Yeah, well I’m the Lord of Time.”
Otherwise it always just sort of disappears from my recollection of the second season.
...but it's a great line, isn't it? :D
I was hoping someone had made this quote. The tenth was just full of sass.
The thing about Moffat episodes is that even the less good ones have some great individual lines.
"What's a horse doing on a spaceship?" "Mickey, what's pre-revolutionary France doing on a spaceship? Get a little perspective."
"Oh, look at what the cat dragged in, the oncoming storm..."
“You’re not keeping the horse.
“I let you keep Mickey!”
The ending always irritated me a bit. I mean, I know the story with Reinette had to end and she wasn't gonna travel with the Doctor, but what the Doctor did was so dumb. Surely, he had to have known going back and forth through the fireplace would mess up the time difference between them and stuff. He skipped YEARS of her life after being gone for about 2 minutes. Why did he not think this through? I remember thinking the first time I watched it that he was gonna go and get her in the TARDIS. I know there was some line somewhere about why they couldn't use the TARDIS in this situation, but it was arbitrary and wasn't really explained. When he came back and when back through the fireplace, I was just thinking "What the hell are you doing, Doctor? She's either gonna be really old and have spent most of her life waiting for you or she's dead!" And surprise! She died.
Yeah, this is my problem with the episode too. It's supposed to be an emotional moment but it's held back because it was caused by the Doctor being dumb. It's similar to Angels Take Manhattan, but at least here the fixed point that was created was more definitive.
I understand why it works - he was acting in the heat of the moment - but it's still stupid af that he didn't either take her with him when going through the fireplace initially or go back in the TARDIS. It would have been great for her to stick around for an episode or 2.
My biggest issue is that it appears The Doctor is willing to leave Rose and Mickey stranded in space. I can buy that The Doctor would be willing to give up his life as a time traveller to save Rounette, but he’d never abandon his companions. Unless he knew he’d be able to get back, which they could’ve hinted at but they didn’t, I just can’t buy it. Other than that, I loved this episode.
Remember The Parting of Ways? The TARDIS has fail-safes to bring his companions home if he's in danger or trapped somewhere. They established that earlier in the series.
@@EmileeAria413and the doctor could've waited till that time to reunite with his tardis
I was opposite. Was instantly one of my favourite episodes and up there on my most rewatched. I like the more high concept ones though hahah
Jason Irving yup I love it
I still can't sleep in a room with a ticking clock
I always disliked this story, although I can appreciate the clockwork monsters. I still don't buy into the idea that the Doctor would leave Rose and Mickey on a spaceship to stay with this woman who will obviously have died before he gets back through the fireplace.
One day, I would love for the Doctor to burst through a door in the same drunken state as in this episode and say "My God, Jim Morrison knows how to party!"
You mean stoned state?
@@zvimur that's what I would REALLY love, but this is a family show. XD
Break on through to the other side was about the time war >.>
@@tylerbailey9329 Well, he has 'slept' with the Virgin Queen. So, an oblique reference is fine, as long as it's not too graphic.
@@tylerbailey9329 - And here I was thinking that such Dionysian revelries are what we thank for bringing these wonderful families into being...
Reinette is also a nickname, so she's "The Little Fish Queen"! But we all have embarassing childhood nicknames, eh?
I am with you 100% on this one..... its never really connected with me either - storywise it should do and as you say for many people it does - but its not one I want to revisit - it kind of plays too loose with the Doctor emotionally for me especially when you think about the end of that series - having a totally different love interest stuck smack bang in the middle feels wrong to me - you almost feel that at the very end of the series (Bad Wolf Bay) should play out with Tennants line to Rose being "Rose Tyler........ I actually dint love you cos I was really deeply in love with someone else and quite prepared to abandon you on a spaceship and stay with her!"
Doesnt work, does it......
Anyway - i dont feel it and I often avoid this story if possible - maybe I will give it a rewatch and see how I feel then.
This is an episode that I loved as a kid (The scene when the Doctor finds the clockwork robot under the bed scared me a lot!) but hate now.. Personally, I don't like the Doctor and Madame de Pompadour's relationship. I feel like this brilliant woman from history was just whittled down as some great fleeting romantic interest for the Doctor when she was so much more than that.. I hate that she's written to have grown up forever thinking of this man she met as a child and she thinks about him to the end of her life.. She's more than that.. it makes me really mad now.. I also hate it because the Doctor met her as a child and the next time he sees her he's kissing her and it just makes me very uncomfortable...
I also don't like how Mickey and Rose are written in this episode. This is Mickey's first proper adventure in the TARDIS and I feel if Mickey and Rose were taken out of the story, it wouldn't change anything. They didn't really do anything and it makes me mad! All they did was stand around... get captured... stand around... There was no reason for them to be there and there SHOULD be a reason for them to be. They should have had more to do. I'm just not a fan of Moffat's work anymore... I really struggle to get through any of his episodes and if I rewatch doctor who I just skip them...
Ten, Rose, and Mickey is like a prototype of Eleven, Amy, and Rory.
Oh yeah
I think the whole thing between her and the doctor is creepy; she meets him when she's A CHILD and a few moments later he's making out with her. It's so typical for moffat though. He is not great at writing women and he sexualises female characters WAY too much ALL the damn time.
Retrospectively it's Moffat's manifesto for showrunner, since he sets up what will be the normality for his tenure; observations:
1. The companion line-up for this story is the prototype for Amy and Rory. There's a communication failure between Toby Whithouse and Moffat here. Toby ends School Reunion with The Doctor inviting Mickey on board and Rose is reticent about including him, but here Mickey appears to be Rose's guest, not the Doctor's. Interesting that no script editor picked this up and tried to get the two writers to agree.
2. The Doctor Dances! This is almost Moffat's agenda; it's clear what side Moffat was on in the great controversy over the Telemovie kiss; ironically the opposite side to his close colleague Mark Gattis who's own opinion is expressed in The Unquiet Dead as "You look beautiful considering you're human" similar to City of Death's "You're a very attractive woman, probably". Moffat is very strongly of the opinion that The Doctor is a sexual being and makes great effort to assert that as canon. Slight problem with this is in Series 3 Paul Cornell will get the chance to bring Human Nature to the small screen, and establishing the Doctor as a libidinous being in his Time Lord form undermines the central conceit that makes that story interesting. But this story is the prototype for The Doctor and River and even the Doctor and Liz the First or possibly even the 11th Doctor's obvious crush on Clara. RTD would tease at implying the Doctor possibly being romantically sexual, but Moffat is very assertively insistent that The Doctor definitely is romantically sexual and this is the episode where he firmly carves that into canon; moreso than simply the one liner about The Doctor dances in The Empty Child. I would infer that during the time the telemovie kiss was debated Moffat was staunchly in favour (although he may have believed it could have been done better with foreshadowing to naturalize it. It does come a bit out of nowhere in the telemovie), Gattis was against and RTD was indifferent but amused at the passion of those against and enjoyed provoking them even more, and these three positions manifest in their writing.
3. It's a fairy tale, and that will later become Moffat's motif stylistic choice certainly for his first three seasons, drawing from Tim Burton and Neil Gaiman as influences, in the same way as Hinchcliffe's influences were Amicus and Hammer.
4. This is the second time Moffat would use the tech carrying out it's programming dysfunctionally story rationale, and it's one he'll continue to revisit in Silence in the Library, Deep Breath, Smile and possibly some others. From his offerings for the RTD era I thought it would come up more often during his own tenure but he did seem to manage not to overuse it.
This is a really great analysis i wish more people gave it a like bc dang its thorough and just spot on
Is anyone else just excited for his love and monsters review? Also great review
I cannot wait to see him utterly demolish that episode.
There is a certain statistical probability.
This one really worked for me at the time - especially as I had no love for series 2 (I still dismiss it almost totally and forget that GITF is even in it).
But... now I haven't seen it in ages but I don't feel any particular draw to it anymore. Maybe it's just general Moffat fatigue (a lot of his tropes are in there like the Doctor interacting over someone's lifetime and tech gone bad etc). It's a well paced script and the end made me emotional and it's all tidied up well
Euros Lyn's direction is very nice and it's got lots of bright colours, the design is lovely, it's one of Murray Gold's best score. I love the period mask design of the clockwork droids.
In terms of the season 2 character arc, it really doesn't work. Rose doesn't want Mickey around and the Doctor adores Rose - yet along comes this episode and she's fine with Mickey and the Doctor dismisses Rose as a generic companion. I don't really buy the Doctor's sudden infatuation with Reinette. Tennant might have dated Sophia Myles as a result of this episode but the characters falling in love... I suppose it's suggested that her seeing inside his mind means that it creates a bond.
Moffat was normally so good at writing plot hole covering lines but his "We can't use the TARDIS, we're part of the timeline" is a particularly poor one.
Probably an 8/10 whereas I might have gone 10/10 in days gone by.
Yes! Finally someone who doesn't think this episode is the best the show has ever written
The music was really good in in this episode
That's the horse from TDOTD
I should like The Girl in the Fireplace....but I don't. I don't hate it, by any means. I just don't particularly like it. Moffat had a thing about the Doctor popping in and out of a woman's life until she was all grown up and Reinette was the first, with River Song and Amy Pond to follow. It kind of worked in this instance, because the clockwork robots were creating the time zones, but it was just creepy for the other two. I also didn't really like the joke between Rose and the Doctor where Rose said something, "You're not keeping the horse!" and the Doctor replied, "Why not? I let you keep Mickey." No. Just....no. I've never liked the Doctor flirting with anyone because I've always got the impression he wasn't interested in romantic relationships and he could be (just from watching the classic series) asexual. New Who kind of buggered that up. Sophia Myles is a fine actress and she gives it her all here. Billie Piper can't seem to get rid of the cotton wool in her mouth - and that's not just a Doctor Who thing. I've seen her in other projects and she still talks like that. I love Mickey. Mickey is my sweet cinnamon roll and needs to be protected. I think he has the most character growth out of the trio as well. Rose was always strong, and being with the Doctor just made her stronger, but Mickey has real change and development when he lets go of Rose and helps her open the heart of the TARDIS, and then travels with the Doctor, and then ends up taking his counterpart's place in the alternate universe. He got a great ending, too, as we saw in The End of Time specials. Summed up, after this rambling comment, I think The Girl in the Fireplace is mostly meh.
Please, Tennant's Doctor is the romantic one.
Your saying you don't like rose because of her accent that's borderline racist
@@dalekgarliccaan5177 It's actually not, since no-one is being oppressed and it applies to an individual not an actual race, but I didn't say her accent was the problem, I said she never got rid of the cotton wool in her mouth - which I hear underneath the accent. I have no problem with accents at all, except when i miss words - and that's what subtitles are for.
I have the same feelings with Heaven Sent. I know it's really good, but I just didn't love it as much as others do.
I used to remember this episode as one of my favourites of the RTD era but in a recent re-watch to compile my ranking of Moffat written episodes I found it didn’t match the high expectation my memory has of it. The ending is still fantastic but a lot of the first two thirds just didn’t do it for me like it once had and I found some of the dialogue cringe worthy.
I'm in the same boat as you. I see a lot of great ideas in this episode, and nothing really bugged me about it, but it just never stuck with me. I still don't know why.
YOUR NAME AND PFP HAVE EARNED U A FOLLOW SIR
Just rewatched it and I absolutely loved it.
It gets straight into the action. The sets and costumes are great. The dialogue is funny. Acting of the main cast is amazing and the guest cast is fine. The music is well used and the concept is just cool.
Two issues for me. 1 is the acting of Mme Pompadour herself but I get it, it's hard to be real while having to do the noble accent.
The other is Mme Pompadour falling for the doctor instantly and just kissing him without any form of consent. So we're keeping some of the old sexism with the love at first sight and reversing the roles for the non consensual kissing.
I've got my gripes but I've still absolutely loved it. It's funny, it's emotional, it's interesting. I want more!
I think my issue with the The Girl in the Fireplace is that I simply don't buy the Doctor and Reinette's love story. As far as we know, he spends, from his perspective, mere hours with her and then has seemingly no problem with abandoning the Tardis and his companions on an alien ship with no plan on how to get back. Even if we make the argument that he has plenty of time to figure SOMETHING out, that's not established and he expresses little to no concern whatsoever after he gets stuck. It feels very... not like the Doctor, even for Tennant, who was the most romantic and arguably the most impulsive of the Modern incarnations. I can't bring myself to believe he would be that careless with his Tardis and his friends over a woman he literally just met. The Doctor is known to make sacrifices to save others, sure, but if he was determined to go off and save Reinette by himself, the least he could have done was send Rose and Mickey home first, or somewhere safe. Nine had that whole emergency program he used in season 1 to save Rose, so I don't see why he couldn't have done that again. Instead, he just took off leaving her and Mickey wondering and worrying whether he would ever come back, and I hated that.
I also think Moffat's obsession with young girls having the Doctor as an imaginary friend and then growing up and being sexually attracted to him is kind of weird. He did the same thing with Amy, but with her, at least it wasn't reciprocated and she grew past it. With Reinette, he made it seem like the Doctor was some grand focal point of her life until she was on her death bed even though they hardly spent any time together, and she only knew him so well because she went rooting through his mind without consent (notably after he made a pointed effort to be respectful of anything she didn't want him to see).
Add in the fact that Rose and Mickey are completely sidelined for the whole story for no logical reason (keep in mind that this is Mickey's FIRST on-screen adventure as a full-fledged companion, and he does nothing), and the episode just rubs me the wrong way. It's very stylish, the plot works nicely, and there are some super fun moments, but imo it's not Moffat's strongest episode.
Could it possibly be something to do with the "going back in time to visit a historical figure" thing that you've mentioned in the past you feel cheapens the character of the Doctor?
but then, it could just be that this episode was a okaygood Episode in a season that had some good, and some REAL stinkers in terms of the stories available, and this one just doesn't have anything that is notable compared to the others? I dunno, just speculating
I kinda almost always remember it because of the "I'm the doctor, and I just snogged the Madam de Pompadour" line... which while cheesy as heck, still had a certain Tennent-ness
I think I'd have liked that line a lot more if it wasn't happy: if the tone was more sort of "oh, that just happened..." It's still a funny line, but you would have kept the alienness with the Doctor.
Another great review. It’s ok to not always click with an episode. You understand that
it’s good objectively and that’s more than enough. Mickey really starts to come into his own on this adventure. His excitement and curiosity starting to blossom as he explores with Rose. I actually really appreciate the moment at the end, where 10 dwells on the
death of Mme de Pompadour and
Mickey understands that he needs time
to process his grief, in the same way he
grieved Rose when she was gone with 9
for a year. It’s a nice contrast to Rose, who is still unclear about the depth of feelings 10 had for Reinette. I’m always a fan of the historical episodes and this one doesn’t fail at being a jolly good adventure.
"good objectively" - FFS, that's not A Thing. Good is a value judgement, which are by their very nature subjective.
When I first saw it, I wasn't that enamoured with it. I really love it now.
Something I didn't notice the first time is every time the doctor went to France it was like a different season of sorts
One of the first Who episodes I ever watched. The reasons I like it may be different from other people. I liked the music near the end, very sad and subdued. The design of the outside of the ship was made to look like the winding key for an antique clock. And I liked that the Doctor never found out why the robots needed Reinette, the reveal of the ship's name at the end made me gasp. I don't mind the formal language, because it was appropriate in this case.
I think its because this episode leans hard, arguably more then any other doctor who episodes, into the 10th doctor is the most dashingly wonderful man and any woman would be lucky to gain even a moment of his attention. And I say that as someone who loved this episode when I first saw this.
When's your Resolution review out?
What were your thoughts on resolution?
@@francisbarraclough959 I was reminded of one of the 10th Doctor books that involved the Daleks
Tomorrow
Jubilee
@@Reprodestruxion no, that's not Tennant Doctor story
Those 4 Moffat stories prior to his becoming showrunner were absolute master pieces. This one is a close second to Blink; both of which blew me away. The ones that don't grab me as much are the two 2 parters starting with the empty child and silence of the library. I can recognise they're great but I come away with a similar feeling with then as the Council does with girl in the fireplace.
My thought is that Renet is relatively new. She's established in-episode as sort of a romantic interest, but she's still only introduced in this episode. By contrast, Rose has had time to get to that level with the doctor. The Doctor gets to that level with Renet faster, so there's sort of an off feeling that this was unearned. That's how I feel, anyways; don't know if that applies to you.
“You’re not keeping the horse!”
I was flipping through channels one evening and came across the banana daiquiri scene. I last watched Doctor Who during the original run of the Mind Thieves (sic? It's the one with the substitute companion). My nightmares were so bad from that one -- Medusa -- that my Mom had forbidden me from watching it.
I immediately went "Doctor Who!" Nearly 40 years and one scene let me know what I was watching. That's the power of Girl in the Fireplace for me.
The Mind Robber is the correct episode name.
@Council of Geeks, you're not alone. I too love this story but I tend to forget about it as well. I find a vast majority of Series 2 to be often forgettable.
I thought it was common knowledge that this episode, while decent, was always Moffat's black sheep of the Russell T Davies era with most of the praise being lavished on The Empty Child and Blink instead. I think it's because Moffat tried to go for something more whimsical as opposed to straight up scary with this one, and Moffat has never written whimsical stories particularly well.
Each to their own - At least you didn't hate this story, that might have set the fanbase on you. For me, this is actually Moffat's best work in RTD's era and the joint best story of Series 2 alongside Impossible Planet/Satan Pit. I never connected with Empty Child/Doctor Dances so there's my unpopular Doctor Who opinion, and whilst I recognise the Library 2-parter is a good story, I'd much rather go to this. With Blink, so many people have claimed its the best modern who story, the best Moffat story, the best 10 story etc, so many opinions that I disagree with, that slightly, I have started to resent Blink for it, which is a shame. I think I need to re-watch Blink and see what my opinion is, in a much fairer way after that.
"At least you didn't hate this story, that might have set the fanbase on you." - That would be pretty foolish. Why take somebody's opinions on media personally - especially if you aren't the one who made it?
Popo Bawa no one said it was logical, it just happens. Fans get very “passionate” and when someone disagrees they can be aggressive. It is silly but it happens.
@@elliottwatt5297 - Hey, that's enough to give fanaticism a bad name!
as an individual story, this is a fantastic episode. it also has one of my favourite moments in season 2 (you're so THICK. mr thick thickety thick face)
however I don't like how it fits in to the continuity of the story for the doctor's character and the way it sidelines rose at such an important part of their relationship together
As a 54 year old from the UK I have been a fan of Doctor Who since the beginning of the Jon Pertwee era all the way through to the Jodie Whittaker tenure we are now in.
I like your reviews as you engage with each episode and don't only go into an out and out hate fest but also look for the good bits too. And just because you don't like something you don't completely write it off. It's very refreshing in a Doctor Who reviewer.
Just a couple of general things I'd like to say. The four best Doctors in my opinion and in no particular order of preference are Tom Baker, David Tennant, Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi.
I also think, although this is only conjecture, that Jodie Whittaker's first season has perhaps been a bit lacklustre because the budget has been cut. It seems that the stories are very light on special effects and fairly Earthbound. I think this may account for the three historical episodes. As for the rest, I think that maybe Chris Chibnall has had to write some fairly lame storylines in order to keep within the smaller budget.
This is only a theory, but I believe it could be true.
Please keep the excellent reviews coming. Many thanks and best regards, Dave.
You've pretty much just summed up how I feel about this episode. I like each component individually, but as a whole it is forgettable as, for me, the relationship between the Doctor and Renée barely scratches the surface. I think part of the problem was that the focus was split between that relationship and the relationship between Rose and Mickey as it's his first time in the Tardis when we needed the focus to be one or the other as neither fully got a chance to be explored in this episode.
I think this is the first real episode where they start playing the love interest for the Doctor thing so whilst it's a ok/good episode if you're not down with that whole thread then this is the start of what gripes us the most.
I agree 100% with what you said about the actress for Madame de Pompadour having to speak that formal way. It always made her character feel more one-dimensional and, well, robotic to me. I feel like my inability to get attached to her is what ruins this episode for me. There are still lines I love and I love the scene where Ten pretends to be drunk, but the episode failed to convince me Madame de Pompadour really loved the Doctor and didn’t just love the idea of him while also telling me she loved him and waited for him her whole life, which in itself could’ve had its own tragedy to it if it had felt like that was what it was going for, but it didn’t to me at least.
Seems like a lot of the problems they face in this episode would be solved if the Doctor had access to a Time Machine...
I completely agree with your points. I like practically all the parts of the story but I don't like it as a whole and I'm not sure what to think of the story in the end! 😀
Ahh one of the KEY episodes to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who.
In this episode we get to know (again; for the second time (out of the "FIVE"!!! major ones); first time was bk in "Silver Nemesis" and Lady Penforte; being exposed to the timevortex; the fourth one was in (the Doctor and the Wardrobe-Widow; the fifth time was in Journey to the Center of the TARDIS/Name of the Doctor ))
Yeah I skipped the THIRD one as that is the MOST IMPORTANT one to last.
The timewindows, is one of the key aspects to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who to date. (1963-today)
How and why?
Ok lets begin with explaining the whole woman gets exposed to a timewindow/timevortex thing and the remembers timelines that never was bit due to that.
The above is pretty easy to understand once one think about it;
Get exposed for a long time to a low dose of timewindow/timevortex and you begin remember lives that never was....
OR!!!!!
is it really lives that never was...
We know from the time Clara was exposed to the timewortex (high dose/short time) that she really expirienced a whole day (in an alternate timeline) that later would "collapse" due to (reasons I wont go into here; but lets just say there is a reason that requires a deep understanding of the following; (a futurepast event gets prevented ; but not the one would obviously think off; (the original birth of the "current" Doctor; but as said that requires a deeper understanding then what I have gotten to yet))
Same happend in the serial; Silver Nemesis where Lady Penforte also got exposed for a short time to a high dose of the timewortex)
= Pretty much what happend to Madame Pompadore and the Widow (in the Wardrobe special)
...............
So how and why is the above leading to the full understanding of EVERYTHING in Doctor Who since 1963?
.....
The Third example I skipped over:
....
First rewatch minisode "Good Night" from around 1:35 and forward for about one minute and realise that somehow Amy Williams is also remembering a life that never was...
&
then remember she grew up next to the crack in her wall.
=
Amy Pond was exposed for a long time to a timewortex ("behind") the crack in her wall; (low exposure/long time)
:.......
"Problem" (during series 5) was that we as a viewers never got told when we saw either this or that Amy´s life.
=
as in the case of episode "Eleventh hour" we never got told that the "Doctor" jumped between two diffrent Universetimelines (twice in that episode; we got told he was late yes but never the actual reason for it;)
................
This we where told about a bit earlier in the show in the episode "Journey´s End" during the TARDIS being dragged off to to the Dalen crucible scene; (As it there was told diffrent Universetimelines dont run exactly the same in thier timeflows)
.............
So we now know Amy had two diffrent lives mixed together during series 5:
and we never got told about it:
= this explains like why no ducks in a duck pond/Mel growing up with Amy/Rory....
BUT it also explains something that was so very cleverly well hidden;
Rory never existed in one of the Universetimelines...
= the Wedding dress we saw in the end of episode "Eleventh hour" was for a wedding with a man Amy never had meet.
WTF?!!!!
Yeah,,,,this was super cleverly hidden.
But remember how in "Pandorica opens/Big Bang" how the Doctors enemies stole Amys memories...
They got the memories of BOTH her lives...and the memory of Rory thru that...
=then when the Pandorica/TARDIS "casued" the "Big Bang" and everything that existed in that moment of the Universetimeline (June 26th 2010) got "copied" over to the new Universetimeline. (= the only true fixed point that always have to remain the same as it is the moment for its creation (in that Universetimeline; so should the birth of the person that caused the Big Bang ever be prevented that Universetimeline would collpase)
=
What really happend in episode "Fathers day" the birth of the Doctor got prevented in the futurepast (with Pete Tyler remaining alive) = the Universetimeline began to collapse until the timeline was corrected and as such returned the Doctor to life. (this took place in the Universetimeline where Gallifrey once "fell" (the Universetimeline we all know as the classic series Universetimeline)
=
and as the same thing that happend in "Fathers day" also happend in the begining of episode "Rings of Akahaten" the birth of the person that would become the Doctor was made possible (with the car not hitting Claras father/hidden voice)
=
Clara is the "current" new Universetimeline (that was spawned into existance on June 26th 2010) Doctor;
=
We can from this begin see how EVERYTHING in Doctor Who begins to start make sense...
...
Galifrey was taken from the classic UT, thru the void & into the new UT where it is now.
=
This explains all the shows intros since the 9th; with the TARDIS jumping between timewortexes; (all this have been planned since atleast the 7th Doctor)
=
Everytime we have seen somehting wedding related in the show the TARDIS have switched Universetimeline (since end of series 2) where the Big Bang was super cleverly hidden outside the TARDIS (its in the 10ths wording during the 10th says goodbye to Rose scene)
...
Etc etc...
And there is more...ofc....but that my firends is a start....
On the actress speaking so formal. I thought that showed her character that even in these high stakes moments she was still going to stay true and formal to these clock robots that were threatening her life. I actually like the moment in the episode when the bots are attacking and everyone one is panicking. And she just scolds them and says we are French we are royalty, we are going to handle this calmly.
Kathryn Causey The reason it didn’t work for me is that with her being so formal and put together, she just didn’t manage to sell to me that she really loved the Doctor rather than loving the idea of him, especially with how she seemed to romanticize him and feel sympathetic towards him after seeing into his mind. There is tragedy in the idea that she had been infatuated but believed she was truly in love and spent all that time waiting, but it didn’t seem like it was going for that to me so it just didn’t hit me the way it wanted to at the end.
Not that because she was so proper she couldn’t have genuinely cared for him, just that because of it she couldn’t convince me of it in the time she had on screen.
@@nicolev.3532 well she did just love the idea of him. She had only met him three times in her life. She had idealized him in her head. She did romanticize him. But to be far so have some companions like Amy.
I must watch much more period dramas than you do. The formal language of the upper class goes all the way down to their core. Like you, I thought this story parallels the Amy Pond story in many ways. This is not my number one show, but I liked it quite a lot.
I'm all for methods of time travel that deviate from the show's norm. And this was a pretty creative one.
When you brought up Unpopular Opinions near the end, it made me think how it's kind of impossible to really have a Doctor Who Unpopular Opinion because of just how many different takes people have on the show. Like I've seen people rush to defend some otherwise widely hated episodes or even whole eras, things like that
I am so glad I am not the only one who never connected with this episode, as I always feel like the odd one out when it comes it. I can't pinpoint what it is either, at first I thought "oh I first watched it when I was in my shipping days of the Doctor and Rose and that's why.", but I have come back to it so many times over the years and have grown out of that shipper's headspace and I still just don't connect. It even has story elements I love like the historical aspect, focusing on a lesser known but interesting historical figure, the whole concept of the ship. I also really like the idea of the Doctor coming back to late but he thinks he's only been gone a moment, this was a nice way to introduce that idea here then bring it back with Amy later. Gah, I can't but wish I could explain why I feel this way, but just everytime I watch it I'm just like okay that was fine.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat as you with this one at this point. Not really one I ever feel like revisiting.
You are trying too hard to figure out why an episode hits the right notes or not for you. Remember, Father's Day was perhaps the first DW story to bring a genuine tear to my eye, but for you, not so much, whereas you were a blubbering mess for Demons of the Punjab in which I didn't care enough for the companions to be affected or care.
Whatever its flaws, The Girl In The Fireplace did more for me to care for Madame Pompadour in that single episode than Chibnall got me to feel for, say, Yaz, in an entire season. Hell, I was more interested and cared for Sally Sparrow in her one-off Blink, or even Elton in the divisive Love and Monsters. Shows you that having a great script really is a separate issue from great characters and actors who can pull it off.
There's a lot to like in this episode. But for me too, something didn't sit right. I wonder if I missed something about her being ill. But, the Doctor coming through in time to see her hearse leaving, felt completely out of the blue. While sad, the Doctor didn't seem surprised. I understand the different speeds of the time streams. I suppose, the reveal of the ship's name wasn't a compelling twist for me. There's a jarring set of tones, too. A crew dismembered by the robots, mixed with a romance, and comedy. David is excellent, subtle and emotive, but poignant and horror don't easily mix.
My 1st Tennant episode after the disappointment of Ecclestone's departure, only because it was before the Sarah Jane episode on that DVD. Tennant never appealed to me as the Doctor until he left the role, a bit like his father in law. I don't know why, it's just me.
My only question is why did the clockwards wanted her "SS Madame de Pompadour" there was purpose but WHYYY
I love this episode, I really do, but in terms of Moffat written episodes in RTD'S era, this is his weakest. I think why you can't connect with this story is that I think this story is far more suited to the 8th Doctor rather than the 10th. I think this sort of magical, romantic structure fits towards the romantic, fun loving yet grumpy Doctor, which I don't personally find 10 to be a romantic Doctor. Besides my head canon being an 8th Doctor story rather than a 10th, I still really like this story.
English Giraffe You don’t find 10 to be the romantic Doctor? Rose, Martha, Christina.
He has just rose really. He is just flirtious, but that isnt nessesary romance.
Ned Barks don’t forget “ the virgin queen” 😎
I’m with you on this one. Like it and even love parts, but it never really hit me the way I know it does for some.
I find that each time I watch this I have a different reaction. It is well done, and for Madame herself the sequence is quite sad. But that being said, knowing as much as I do about that era in French history and the whole "wife and official mistress are besties" and "official mistress dutiful and attentive to her king but in love with time traveling alien" it just doesn't add up.
I'm with you on this one. I enjoy this episode, but it didn't quite hit the mark and I don't love the episode in the way I know many other fans do.
Been waiting for this for a long time.
I thought there was very much a wasted opportunity with Mickey, and thought he would have made a great, more long-running traveling companion for the Doctor along with Rose. They could have had him stay onboard the TARDIS, and have Jake be the one that travels to our version of Earth in Army of Ghosts, and tell Rose about the Cyberman planning on invading Earth through the void, rather than Mickey. They could have potentially had him continue traveling with the Doctor in Series three after Rose became separated from him, and ended up living in the parallel version of Earth with her mother and its version of Pete Tyler. Martha could have been introduced as a new companion, and rather than her being in love with the Doctor, she becomes romantically involved with Mickey, leading up to leaving the TARDIS with him after they had fallen in love, and they continue their romantic relationship on Earth.
The best episode in the shows history for me personally
I love this episode (and it makes me cry all the tears), but in retrospect & with knowledge of Moffat’s writing over this and other shows the Dr’s relationship with Mme de Pompadour feels so creepy. When I was younger I was able to dismiss it b/c I basically ignored all romance in all media, but it stands out to me much more now.
The episode still holds a special place for me though, one of the first Dr Who episodes to make me cry on multiple rewatches! Due in large part to the phenomenal reading of the letter at the end. Ow.
How’s it creepy
Think Liasions dangereuxse
I FINALLY got around to seeing this episode since they are available on Max - and I don’t get what all the fuss is about either ?? The horse jump through the mirror is a big “The Doctor saves the day” climax moment, but the story resolution after that is very twisty wisty and makes no sense. Definitely a let down.
I'm glad I'm not alone when it comes to this one; it falls in that category of the whole being less than the sum of its parts. It certainly has all the elements, yet somehow it isn't memorable for me.
I don't like the episode, the romantic side was bad and has since ruined my view of the episode but the spaceship stuff was good
I liked the episode and I did as a child too, but I just rewatched it and I find so many makes no sense and leaves so many questions. Like, I get why mid episode they couldn't visit her but why not after? Also why does he leave her telling her to watch the stars and then act surprise when he came back and it was 5 years later and she was dead. LIke he knows the time holes worked like that? It would be no time for them but years for her. Also, sorry, but how is it realistic that the space ship is named after a 18th Century person when it's three thousand years in our future?? Also what happened to the romance with Rose and why did he think it was okay to threaten the possibility of stranding her and Mickey on the spaceship?
I've been waiting for this 😁
Maybe it didn’t stick with you because it doesn’t really fit into the story arc or any characterization arcs for this season.
I think that the clock robots are creepy. They were creepy in this episode and they were creepy in Capaldis first episode. The way they move and act, it’s just creepy. Madame Pompadour is quite good, the best parts is her as a young girl. That actor was a good child actor. But I think that the episode feels like it’s a filler. A good filler, but still a filler.
Actually, "Reinette" translates to "Little Queen." So her English-translated name is Little Queen Fish.
No, I'm with you. This episode is good but it never resonates with me for some unknown reason. Thought I was the only who felt the same way! The music is good in this episode, though.
Ahh one of the KEY episodes to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who.
In this episode we get to know (again; for the second time (out of the "FIVE"!!! major ones); first time was bk in "Silver Nemesis" and Lady Penforte; being exposed to the timevortex; the fourth one was in (the Doctor and the Wardrobe-Widow; the fifth time was in Journey to the Center of the TARDIS/Name of the Doctor ))
Yeah I skipped the THIRD one as that is the MOST IMPORTANT one to last.
The timewindows, is one of the key aspects to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who to date. (1963-today)
How and why?
Ok lets begin with explaining the whole woman gets exposed to a timewindow/timevortex thing and the remembers timelines that never was bit due to that.
The above is pretty easy to understand once one think about it;
Get exposed for a long time to a low dose of timewindow/timevortex and you begin remember lives that never was....
OR!!!!!
is it really lives that never was...
We know from the time Clara was exposed to the timewortex (high dose/short time) that she really expirienced a whole day (in an alternate timeline) that later would "collapse" due to (reasons I wont go into here; but lets just say there is a reason that requires a deep understanding of the following; (a futurepast event gets prevented ; but not the one would obviously think off; (the original birth of the "current" Doctor; but as said that requires a deeper understanding then what I have gotten to yet))
Same happend in the serial; Silver Nemesis where Lady Penforte also got exposed for a short time to a high dose of the timewortex)
= Pretty much what happend to Madame Pompadore and the Widow (in the Wardrobe special)
...............
So how and why is the above leading to the full understanding of EVERYTHING in Doctor Who since 1963?
.....
The Third example I skipped over:
....
First rewatch minisode "Good Night" from around 1:35 and forward for about one minute and realise that somehow Amy Williams is also remembering a life that never was...
&
then remember she grew up next to the crack in her wall.
=
Amy Pond was exposed for a long time to a timewortex ("behind") the crack in her wall; (low exposure/long time)
:.......
"Problem" (during series 5) was that we as a viewers never got told when we saw either this or that Amy´s life.
=
as in the case of episode "Eleventh hour" we never got told that the "Doctor" jumped between two diffrent Universetimelines (twice in that episode; we got told he was late yes but never the actual reason for it;)
................
This we where told about a bit earlier in the show in the episode "Journey´s End" during the TARDIS being dragged off to to the Dalen crucible scene; (As it there was told diffrent Universetimelines dont run exactly the same in thier timeflows)
.............
So we now know Amy had two diffrent lives mixed together during series 5:
and we never got told about it:
= this explains like why no ducks in a duck pond/Mel growing up with Amy/Rory....
BUT it also explains something that was so very cleverly well hidden;
Rory never existed in one of the Universetimelines...
= the Wedding dress we saw in the end of episode "Eleventh hour" was for a wedding with a man Amy never had meet.
WTF?!!!!
Yeah,,,,this was super cleverly hidden.
But remember how in "Pandorica opens/Big Bang" how the Doctors enemies stole Amys memories...
They got the memories of BOTH her lives...and the memory of Rory thru that...
=then when the Pandorica/TARDIS "casued" the "Big Bang" and everything that existed in that moment of the Universetimeline (June 26th 2010) got "copied" over to the new Universetimeline. (= the only true fixed point that always have to remain the same as it is the moment for its creation (in that Universetimeline; so should the birth of the person that caused the Big Bang ever be prevented that Universetimeline would collpase)
=
What really happend in episode "Fathers day" the birth of the Doctor got prevented in the futurepast (with Pete Tyler remaining alive) = the Universetimeline began to collapse until the timeline was corrected and as such returned the Doctor to life. (this took place in the Universetimeline where Gallifrey once "fell" (the Universetimeline we all know as the classic series Universetimeline)
=
and as the same thing that happend in "Fathers day" also happend in the begining of episode "Rings of Akahaten" the birth of the person that would become the Doctor was made possible (with the car not hitting Claras father/hidden voice)
=
Clara is the "current" new Universetimeline (that was spawned into existance on June 26th 2010) Doctor;
=
We can from this begin see how EVERYTHING in Doctor Who begins to start make sense...
...
Galifrey was taken from the classic UT, thru the void & into the new UT where it is now.
=
This explains all the shows intros since the 9th; with the TARDIS jumping between timewortexes; (all this have been planned since atleast the 7th Doctor)
=
Everytime we have seen somehting wedding related in the show the TARDIS have switched Universetimeline (since end of series 2) where the Big Bang was super cleverly hidden outside the TARDIS (its in the 10ths wording during the 10th says goodbye to Rose scene)
...
Etc etc...
And there is more...ofc....but that my firends is a start....
For some reason, I always thought she was called Madame Pamplemousse 🤔😂
I liked parts of this episode, but overall, it requires the Doctor to be really, really stupid. Every time he leaves and comes back he seems equally surprised by the fact years have passed when he leaves for a few minutes.
You didn’t hate it. I think itself would have benefited more if it was a little longer maybe focus on Rose and Mickey a little more, then possibly show more sense of the Doctor and Rennet’s interaction.
I love this epp. I think we all resonate with Diff things so perhaps the formality of the language and other things you spoke about hampered that for you. It has a romantacism that was very much present for Tennant's Dr throughout his time as the Dr
Only good New Who episodes are Blink, Girl In The Fireplace and Dalek. In that order. This episode made all the more by the fact that “the girl” and Doctor were dating in real life, no acting involved there.
The first time I watched this episode I liked it. Alot. Now not so much. It has some good moments but there's two reason why I dislike it. One - Ten feels really out of character. He reminds me alot of eleven. Not surprising considering it Moffat who wrote this. But I dont like that. Second reason - Knowing what I know now about doctor who this episode feels like Amy Ponds entire storyline squeezed into one episode. She meets the doctor as a child. He saves her from the monster. Goes away and doesn't come back for years. She is attracted to him at the same time as she has another guy. In the end ~spoilers~ she dies. She is the girl who waited. Waited for the doctor. Get a new script Moffat. No I can't say I like this episode.
you should watch Supernatural i feel like you’d like it a lot
I cried the first seven times I saw it
Ahh one of the KEY episodes to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who.
In this episode we get to know (again; for the second time (out of the "FIVE"!!! major ones); first time was bk in "Silver Nemesis" and Lady Penforte; being exposed to the timevortex; the fourth one was in (the Doctor and the Wardrobe-Widow; the fifth time was in Journey to the Center of the TARDIS/Name of the Doctor ))
Yeah I skipped the THIRD one as that is the MOST IMPORTANT one to last.
The timewindows, is one of the key aspects to understand EVERYTHING in Doctor Who to date. (1963-today)
How and why?
Ok lets begin with explaining the whole woman gets exposed to a timewindow/timevortex thing and the remembers timelines that never was bit due to that.
The above is pretty easy to understand once one think about it;
Get exposed for a long time to a low dose of timewindow/timevortex and you begin remember lives that never was....
OR!!!!!
is it really lives that never was...
We know from the time Clara was exposed to the timewortex (high dose/short time) that she really expirienced a whole day (in an alternate timeline) that later would "collapse" due to (reasons I wont go into here; but lets just say there is a reason that requires a deep understanding of the following; (a futurepast event gets prevented ; but not the one would obviously think off; (the original birth of the "current" Doctor; but as said that requires a deeper understanding then what I have gotten to yet))
Same happend in the serial; Silver Nemesis where Lady Penforte also got exposed for a short time to a high dose of the timewortex)
= Pretty much what happend to Madame Pompadore and the Widow (in the Wardrobe special)
...............
So how and why is the above leading to the full understanding of EVERYTHING in Doctor Who since 1963?
.....
The Third example I skipped over:
....
First rewatch minisode "Good Night" from around 1:35 and forward for about one minute and realise that somehow Amy Williams is also remembering a life that never was...
&
then remember she grew up next to the crack in her wall.
=
Amy Pond was exposed for a long time to a timewortex ("behind") the crack in her wall; (low exposure/long time)
:.......
"Problem" (during series 5) was that we as a viewers never got told when we saw either this or that Amy´s life.
=
as in the case of episode "Eleventh hour" we never got told that the "Doctor" jumped between two diffrent Universetimelines (twice in that episode; we got told he was late yes but never the actual reason for it;)
................
This we where told about a bit earlier in the show in the episode "Journey´s End" during the TARDIS being dragged off to to the Dalen crucible scene; (As it there was told diffrent Universetimelines dont run exactly the same in thier timeflows)
.............
So we now know Amy had two diffrent lives mixed together during series 5:
and we never got told about it:
= this explains like why no ducks in a duck pond/Mel growing up with Amy/Rory....
BUT it also explains something that was so very cleverly well hidden;
Rory never existed in one of the Universetimelines...
= the Wedding dress we saw in the end of episode "Eleventh hour" was for a wedding with a man Amy never had meet.
WTF?!!!!
Yeah,,,,this was super cleverly hidden.
But remember how in "Pandorica opens/Big Bang" how the Doctors enemies stole Amys memories...
They got the memories of BOTH her lives...and the memory of Rory thru that...
=then when the Pandorica/TARDIS "casued" the "Big Bang" and everything that existed in that moment of the Universetimeline (June 26th 2010) got "copied" over to the new Universetimeline. (= the only true fixed point that always have to remain the same as it is the moment for its creation (in that Universetimeline; so should the birth of the person that caused the Big Bang ever be prevented that Universetimeline would collpase)
=
What really happend in episode "Fathers day" the birth of the Doctor got prevented in the futurepast (with Pete Tyler remaining alive) = the Universetimeline began to collapse until the timeline was corrected and as such returned the Doctor to life. (this took place in the Universetimeline where Gallifrey once "fell" (the Universetimeline we all know as the classic series Universetimeline)
=
and as the same thing that happend in "Fathers day" also happend in the begining of episode "Rings of Akahaten" the birth of the person that would become the Doctor was made possible (with the car not hitting Claras father/hidden voice)
=
Clara is the "current" new Universetimeline (that was spawned into existance on June 26th 2010) Doctor;
=
We can from this begin see how EVERYTHING in Doctor Who begins to start make sense...
...
Galifrey was taken from the classic UT, thru the void & into the new UT where it is now.
=
This explains all the shows intros since the 9th; with the TARDIS jumping between timewortexes; (all this have been planned since atleast the 7th Doctor)
=
Everytime we have seen somehting wedding related in the show the TARDIS have switched Universetimeline (since end of series 2) where the Big Bang was super cleverly hidden outside the TARDIS (its in the 10ths wording during the 10th says goodbye to Rose scene)
...
Etc etc...
And there is more...ofc....but that my firends is a start....
I know people love this ep but it didn’t quite work for me. My reaction is the same as yours. Intellectually I get it, but it didn’t quite hit me emotionally. I think part of it is Moffats wrote it for Nine, and he didnt really know Ten yet. He also didn’t seem to be aware that RTD was going for a near love story with Rose and Ten. So this seemed a little off within this point of the series. Just...like a shoe that doesn’t quite fit. I also felt the reason given for why they couldn’t use the TARDIS was not great. I think Reinette would have been a great companion at another point in the series or this would have worked well in one of the doctor’s solo times. I did like the formal language... But otherwise I agree with you
Cranky Grandma I didn’t know it was written for Nine! I actually think it would’ve worked for me better with him. (And I’m saying this as someone whose fave doctor is a tie between Tennant and Capaldi, not hating on Tennant’s Doctor at all)
From the review and from some comments, there seem to be a lot of romance-phobic Doctor Who fans. As if romance is something rare and strange and never happens in reality. And god forbid if it happens to the Doctor! I even saw a comment saying that there was no real romance between Reinette and the Doctor. I think the commentator would insist even if they were explicitly shown to be having sex on screen (which was heavily implied anyway).
I don't deny that it's there. I won't even claim that it shouldn't be or is somehow wrong. But for me personally, I still don't like it. Because it's not why I'm here. And "the romantic Doctor" is not an angle I have any interest in.
@@CouncilofGeeks Fair enough and each to their own. It just puzzles me that some viewers, while they love the strong emotional bond if it doesn’t include a sexual element (see Capaldi/Clara, Smith/Amy), as long as there is a single kiss they are repulsed almost. To me the above are indistinguishable: the bond, attachment to, and need for another being (human or not) is as powerful, whether friend or lover.
People even accept the sexual element alone (see Jack flirting with and kissing the Doctor and Rose). It is just the combination that seems unacceptable, as if there is an “anti-romance” stereotype in today’s world.
@@CouncilofGeeks I have to say that I personally love that Moffatt dared insert romantic/sexual elements, and he manages this pretty well without falling into cliché or cheap romance. I wish he hadn’t stopped during the Capaldi era, and I wish they do this with the female Doctor too (yet another stereotype: women leaders cannot/shouldn’t have a male sidekick who has romantic feelings for them).
Same boat. Enjoyable but somehow forgettable episode. Personally, I always thought it was because Rose was OOC in it, especially compared to the last episode.
Only season 2 episode I care about at all apart from the finale (a bit).
The only thing that brothers me slightly now that I'm older is: shouldn't she have a French accent?
No. You can't have a French accent while speaking French.
Leslie Bevis she’s being translated to English though, so doesn’t it make more sense for her to have a French accent than a random British one when she isn’t British? Or are you suggesting you think the reason everyone always sounds British in DW is because the Tardis makes everyone else hear the accent they’re used to? I guess I could buy that headcanon.
Tardis translation doesn't give people accents
Karina Hilton said with a twang of deep south Mondasian!
I love this episode
Madame du Pompadour was Austrian, right? 🤔
Jeanne-Antoinette Poisson was born in Paris, had two french parents and a french step-father... She did however advise Louis XV to unite with the austrians in the Seven-Year's-War.
You may have her confused with Marie-Antoinette, the wife of Louis XVI, who was Austrian (and of House of Habsburg decent). Or Louis XIV's wife, Maria Theresa of Spain... who was the daughter of Spain's King Felipe IV and France's Elisabeth Of France (herself the eldest daughter of King Henry IV of France), and also of Austrian royal decent on both her parent's sides (making her a Princess of the House of Habsburg) - because royalties back in the day were quite the interesting bunch :)
thekueken cimer pour tout les cinglos d’info
I think this is my favourite Nu Who story - certainly it's in my top 3.
I like seeing Micky as a companion - I agree I'd have liked to see him travel with them for longer.
The explanation / reveals of what the robots are / are tying to do and how ("we did not have the parts") are nicely handled and their ultimate aim is a logical conclusion to the work they started.
Overall I think it's just a great story to watch with everything tying together in a very satisfying way.
Also a special mention for the music in this episode - has a music box feel that ties into the clockwork theme of the episode really nicely - adds a lot to the episode for me but don't hear many other people mention this.
One of the reasons I remember this ep so fondly is I got to Nu-Who late and marathoned the early seasons. After a more Miss than Hit season 1 and a Christmas special I despised, hitting a solidly good episode with interesting premise felt like a step up.
This episode was great, one of the best Tennant episodes for me!
You and I are very different in age, in nationality, in lifestyle, and so on and so forth, but you often say more or less what I would have said, but better. There were things I liked about this episode too, but it doesn't really come together for me, and I think it worked better with A. Pond. It helped that Ms Pond wasn't a historical character; I don't think that making the girl in the fireplace into a historical character was a good idea. It's as though Moffat thought that, hey, if you go back into history, of course you're going to meet some historical character; which of course isn't true, you're almost certain to meet someone that no-one in the present has ever heard of.
I agree this episode is a little off.