oh! a villain trope i love so much is when the hero and villain have to spontaneously team up in the middle of a fight because something worse happened
@@alma3468 in a way, except the protagonist is the villain people have to team up with. "shadow of the conqueror" by shad brooks. the protagonist is a deposed dictator whos given a second chance at life to make things right but no one knows its actual him because he looks different. its very good if you also like a really muddy path to redemption.
@@basement_gremlin2577 considering how her morals are very questionable and her only motivation is self gain (light's affection) i would consider her a bad person/villain.
I think the 'complex backstory: yes or no?'-question depends on the genre quite a bit. We all love the iconic villains of renaissance era Disney (Scar, Ursula, Gaston) not because of their tragic past, but because they have such a menacing presence and are just having a lot of fun being evil. In those cases, adding a tragic backstory will do the story more harm than good. A good example is the Cruella live action movie, in which it's explained that Cruella's mom (or someone else, i don't remember) was killed by dalmatians. We don't really need a tragic backstory for the puppy skinning villain. Of course there are exceptions, Frollo being one of my favourite Disney villains because of his complexity, but it's fair to say that different genres will lead to different answers to the question.
I find ur insight intriuging. I'd love to analyze more on the impact that different genres have on villains as well as how different intended audiences can impact it as well because when it all boils down, we love diff villains for diff reasons and they r plenty of factors that can change how we perceive things
@@hijabiloser313 8t also depends on what type of villain. To use star Wars as an example, Palpatine doesn't need a personal backstory to work, just his rise to power. But Vader's backstory makes his redemption more impactful.
In Arcane, I love the combination of getting the explanation and backstory of how Jinx became the villain she is. While we at the same time accept that she also is quite crazy and "evil" just because she's unhinged.
Explanation is not an excuse : I completely agree ! I love having a backstory for the villain that explains why they turned out to be what they are, but I hate it when it is considered as an excuse.
I believe that relates to the trope "Woobie, destroyer of worlds," where an incredibly evil villain becomes one due to exaggerated abuse and shitty life. I have seen plenty of examples, and they are usually hard to take seriously 😂
I also love characters who are technically nemeses but also have like a chill best friend/ah my old friend vibe like perry the platypus and dr. doofenshmirtz or jake peralta and doug judy or professor x and magneto. (p.s. loved the video!!! also i continue to be in love with your earring collection! obsessed with the howl earrings)
@@nataliapanchyshyn385 It's such a cool lamp! I love it 🙂 This mysterious, glowing light. A wondrous stone with this magical inner space, and you can't tell how deep it goes
The trope of the villain being the only one who is willing to assist the main character in reaching their full potential is reminding me a lot of Hannibal and Will, or of Erik of Phantom of the Opera. Love the trope, too!
My favourite villain trope which isn't done nearly enough is where at the end the hero realizes that the villain was right all along, and/or even if he they are defeated in the traditional sense, the villain ends up winning in the end. Ozymandias from Watchmen is perfect example of this.
An amazing "antagonist" is Jinx in the Arcane series !!!! The dynamics between her and her sister are just perfect and you understand both of their points of view I would even say you can't really root for either of them since it's just too sad to see how their relationship collapsed
I agree. And there's not really one person you can point at and say "it's your fault." Almost everyone were just victims of really horrible circumstances.
Anton Chigurh from No Country For Old Men is a great villain who is "evil for no reason". We don't know his backstory and his motivations aren't clear, but this is a big part of why he's so scary - it's the fear of the unknown because we just can't fathom why he does what he does, and makes him inhuman to the point where you almost feel like he's not even a human but some kind of a personification of evil
Yes, Chigurh stole the show in that movie. A more typical Russian 'evil for no reason' is in the Jack Reacher movie, the first one, starring Tom Cruise. They provide a backstory that helps bing some sympathy for him but in the end he's just too unambiguously bad to give him the benefit of any doubts. Another one of that mold is in the Denzel Washington movie, The Equalizer. In the Keanu Reeves movies - the name escapes me - that type of villain is featured but without the same intensity.
one of my favorite tropes is : "Villian x Hero used to be in a relationship -until x happened to ruin it for them- " and we all know they'd be an insane power couple if things worked out. Also the steamy spice scenes that come from this trope 🔥🔥 One funny example I can think of is Barnabas Collins and Angelique from Dark Shadows.
I used to watch that sometimes in the afternoons because it was popular in my household. I'm afraid I can't remember too much about it but your description sounds right.
Unpopular opinion? Harry Potter has a good and a bad example of the (sad) backstory villain trope. The good one is learning about Voldemorts backstory, because it's it's interesting and opens the possibility to draw parallels between his childhood an the protagonists, leading to the possibility of great internal conflict and worrying other characters. It also doesn't get used as an excuse for what he does. The bad one could have been very good and interesting, but was badly written as a cover all, total redemption: Severus Snape. He was bullied and his crush wasn't reciprocated. So he joins a murdering racist-analogy, gets the protagonists parents killed, bullies years and years of students, including but definitely not limited to the main character, uses his authority to demoralise, endanger and punish students, while encouraging and helping bullies if they are in his favourite group. Feeling bad that his old love died (and ONLY about her), he double crosses the guy who killed her. In the end the protagonist calls him a hero for that?! And names a child after this adult teacher who bullied him for as long as he could/lived. Like wth ...
I was all good with Snape having an explanation for his beef with Harry but having him be a 'hero' in the end instead of just a complex character was kind of pushy imo
Strongly agree. I got the the part where we see Snape's backstory and went "Huh, ok that does explain a lot. Interesting." And then a few chapters later read "Albus Severus Potter, you were named for two or the greatest headmasters Hogwarts ever had." And I was like UMMMMMMMM _greatest?????_
Voldemort was an awful villain backstory. Literally no reason for his villainy and nothing really explained as the reason in his backstory other than Dumbledore basically arguing he was born evil. lmao
My favourite movie is "catch me if you can" and I'm not even sure how to describe the dynamic between Frank Abagnale Jr. and Carl Hanratty.. Frank is a criminal but you're kinda rooting for him anyway and Carl's just doing his job so you can't fault him for that 🤔 yet they both respect each other.. This movie just makes me feel so many things 😍
Yes, Hanks and Decaprio are two of America's best actors. I believe CMIYC is based on a true-life case but the fabulous chemistry between the FBI guy and the scammer is definitely a product of their good work together.
Lupin the III and Interpol agent Zenigata. What makes me love them so much is that when shit gets real, they're willing to put their beef to the side for the greater good. But second it's settled they're back to their cat mouse dance.
Magneto is one of my favorite villains because it's so hard to get a villain who actually has good points and proves how easy it would be for the main characters to have defected to a more "antagonistic" side. He challenges the status quo and pokes holes in the X-Men's reasons for fighting and is often able to persuade members to convert to the brotherhood. He has the right ideas but the wrong execution and you often end up rooting for him when the "good guys" methods just don't get things done.
If you like David Tennant you'll probably like Good Omens (both a book and a TV show). It kind of fits the villain theme because he plays a literal demon who develops the most heart-warming friendship with an angel as they both try and avert the apocalypse.
I see Crowley as a failed villain. Humanity doesn't really need him to do bad things. Like when he gets some type of promotion from hell for an inquisition he didn't even know about ... and of course, being friends with an angel doesn't help either.
I think Collins mastered the “explanation but not excuse” with Snow’s backstory in A Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes. She found that perfect mix of privilege/entitlement and genuine childhood trauma to plant the seed of his hatred; then added the influence of groomers to nurture his choices. He still had agency in his choices, but works as a fair warning. It also underscored how he and Katniss really were two sides of the same coin; and added to the “punch” of him contributing to her ultimate choice to reject the process. In no way does this redeem him, but together Snow and Katniss serve as a warning for all of us about how we allow ourselves to be influenced when we are vulnerable.
A build up of how the villain’s greed and desires, shape them to who they are is always compelling. President Snow is an example of this as he wasn’t this maniacal evil in the beginning but his professor brought out the worst in him.
If only I could show ALL your videos to my high school students and tell them "THIS is how you construct a decent essay with a proper intro, conclusion and examples of evidence!! Now do this on paper!!" What the heck... I might as well try. 😆
I read Vicious and Vengeful literally right after I watched this video when it came out, due to my friend recommending it but not saying it was a FRIENDS TO ENEMIES??? HELLO?? So immediately i read the series and like. it was fantastic and I’m never going to get over it. I loved that both protagonists were so blatantly horrible people, and I just found myself loving Eli so much. Eli and Victor’s dynamic was also just. chefs kiss. Best thing ever.
Homelander in The Boys is THE best villain writing i’ve seen. You just love to hate him, and he’s so unpredictable and terrifying, but you can’t help but wonder “omg how is homelander going to react to this”. And the whole show really just turns the superhero trope on its head. Also anime wise, I will always recommend Fruits Basket because it makes you put yourself if the villain’s shoes. Plus, has my favorite love story of all time
I feel like Darth Vader is one of the greatest villains of all time. He’s got backstory, is kind of an ass by himself (as Anakin), he’s got a specific goal that made him the way he is (saving Padmé), and he has a redemption arc. Absolutely perfect combination for me Edit: oh also he was totally being groomed for villainy by Palpatine his entire life so the cards are stacked against him
Vader will always be the perfect image of the best kind of villain for me. Like you said, his backstory, motivation, fall, power, manipulation, redemption,... it all just comes together so well.
I can really recommend "Moriarty the patriot" It's a retelling of the Holmes universe and has the arch-enemy, explanations, equality tropes and the psychology around the moriarty BROTHERS is just amazing.
ronan and kavinsky from the raven cycle are a perfect example of the “protagonist that could have so easily been the antagonist” and also “antagonist is the only one who can teach protagonist to fully use their powers” which i think is what makes their dynamic so interesting
I think Harry Potter and Tom Riddle are amazing examples of two people who have such similar upbringings, above average talent and yet they make completely different choices
A female-specfic villain deep dive would be awesome! I find that female antagonists either act like they're a part of petty teenage crews or are an underling to a stronger male villain. It really annoys me! I want greater range!! Baba Yaga from Spirited Away was a good soft antagonist. She had power, motivation, maliciousness and was at times unpredicable and capable of self-restraint. But she does veer towards being the mother trope, like you mentioned. Makima from Chainsaw Man was effective. She was unnerving and the readers were never fully aware of her powers until the last act. But she used sexual manipulation to blindside Denji, though that is an explicit character flaw of his so the context changes it a little; she wasn't a sexy character by default but instead played into Denji's desires to control him. Still, femme-fatals are overused no matter what imo, or at least maybe only vampire stories can justifyably call upon their ladies to be sexy because their men are sexy too. Sexuality and sexual desires have been part of vampire branding since the first (Western) vampire stories were published haha
One of my favourite villains, although she is both a villain and a protagonist, is my queen Amy Dunne from Gone Girl. Amy’s backstory does somewhat establish her parents as nutcases and Nick as a prick, but never to an extent that would explain her psychotic behaviour. Amy is evil because she can, because she’s smart enough and remorseless enough to pull it off, and so she does. The story shows that despite external facteurs making her most likely a lot worse, she was still manipulative and cruel from the start and I honestly think it’s kinda brilliant. And I still root for her constantly, even if she should be easy to hate because she doesn’t really have that sad backstory. Also, villain recommendations ! Dracula : Das Musical is literally so iconic, it awakens the simp in me like nothing else AND made me cry BUCKETS at the end.
I was so excited that someone is actually discussing Kilgrave and how good of a villain he is in a circle that I am in. There is something to be said about how terrifying a villain is when I have to stop watching the show and come back to it much later mentally prepared. Kilgrave terrified me to my core. (Coming from an avid reading of thrillers and horror)
An underrated trait for villains in my book is resilience. Not power, not some sort of fanaticism necessarily, but a strength of will that makes them come back every time they are dealt a strong blow, a sense of personal values due that drives them no matter what. Bonus points if they accidentally end up inspiring the good guys. A bit of a generic example could be when a third power imprisons the MC and their nemesis, and the villain tells the mentally beaten down MC to pick themselves up and form some temporary alliance to escape. This obviously implies a villain who would rather beat the hero when the hero is at their best.
When you mentioned the villain is the only one who is willing to teach the main character his true potential i thought of the Dream Thieves (second book in The Raven Cycle) it also works with the well we're not so different you and I!
THE POPPY WAR- literally adore how they play with characters and their morals and such, especially as the series continues and character arcs continue to unfold. Awesome video!
TV show rec, my fave of all time: *BLACK SAILS* (unless you've already seen it). every character has a little bit of villainy in them, but you enjoy watching all of them sooo much that it's devastating when any die bc god they were just so INTERESTING. best writing of any show i've ever seen, and the show runners decided to wrap it up after 4 seasons instead of dragging it along because they knew how they wanted to end it and it's done soooooo wellllll. omgggg. there are conversations where the tension is so palpable it's like a fridge laying on top of you and you can't move but you love every moment of it
Came here looking for this comment. I'm currently rewatching Black Sails and oh my god, every character is fascinating. And I agree, it's one of the best written shows I've ever seen. Captain Flint has got to be one of my favorite characters of all times, and his relationship with Silver is just... *Chef's Kiss*
My sweet spot for (sake of being evil) villains is how Lady Tremane was portrayed in Cinderella 2015. Evil asf, but with enough context to make her human without redeeming her whatsoever.
All the first 3 examples you gave for good villains (Alina-Darkling, Korra-Amon, Kell-Holland) had me screaming bc I love all of them so much, thank you for appreciating them!!!!!!
spike from buffy the vampire slayer will forever be one of the best villains for me, and that’s absolutely the best enemies to lovers story. his backstory wasn’t originally planned because he wasn’t meant to stay around as long as he did, but even from his introduction he’s already a layered and interesting bad guy who really shifts your perspective of evil. the backstory they weave in layer makes perfect sense. he’s a foil to buffy but so much more too. he’s a mirror, as she is for him, and every moment of their dynamic is so crunchy and endlessly compelling.
21:50 You're literally talking about "Shatter me" series. Especially the 3rd book. Aaron the villain was pushing the protagonist to discover her true potential instead of being afraid of it.
You have to watch Mr. Robot! You mentioned how there aren’t enough shows that focus on the protagonists that are pushing for radical change often and it often being only the villains but this show is all about that complexity and how far the protagonists are willing to go to meet their goals. It’s incredibly nuanced and complex. Heavy social commentary and incredible characters!
I need more videos about villain tropes. Hate it when I’m watching a really really good video and the creator says “but this video’s gone on for long enough” like noooooo keep going off homie this is too good! Some villain tropes that I dig: - the fallen hero/corruption arc - the villain who does chaotic things not because they necessarily want to, but they feel that they HAVE to be that sort of force (Anton Chigurh from No Country For Old Men for example) - having a badass fortress/lair/castle - villain who is awful to humans but has a pet that they care deeply for - “the dreaded” as it’s called on tvtropes. Basically when a villain is feared by everyone. Characters where just mentioning their name makes a room full of cold, hardened criminals even fall silent. I LIVE for scenes where characters tell stories of how horrifying a character is, with their voice trembling as ominous music plays.
I am unapologetically in love with Hannibal Lecter 😂 also he has a lot of those tropes you mentioned at first going on with Will. Like, he wants to guide him and help him reach his true potential, of course that potential is being as savage and flamboyant a killer as himself 😂😂😂 but he is the only one that gets his dark side. He also has the “for me it was just tuesday” thing with everything he does to him to “help him along” in getting there
Your point about villains being the only ones being allowed to fight for change and MCs never doing so makes me think of Mo Dao Zu Shi by MXTX, where the MC is perceived as the villain by other characters in the story bc of their inducing change and persisting for that even at the cost of innocent lives! I think it interestingly flips the status quo vs. change plot line we see in a lot of mass media, and the villain in the story is amazing too!
Don't know if you've see in but Galavant is a show with awesome writing. The hero himself, Galavant, King Richard, and every one else is just awesome every single minute. And don't even get me started on the character development of them both. The pilot episode is a bit weird, but by the 3rd episode you'll be so deep in, you wouldn't want to stop watching the series. (talking from experience)
Recently, Silco from Arcane has become one of my favorite. Evil methods, evil morals yet for a cause that is very noble. Like you said in the video ''ends don't justify the means'' he is a peak example!!
call me crazy, but the best villain is the one you can ship with the hero and KNOW that of they ended up together you would watch them set the world on fire and still be happy
I think Akito Sohma (Fruits Basket) is a great example of a villain who has trauma that explains but doesn't excuse their actions. [SPOILERS] You constantly see her manipulate and abuse the zodiac members so that they never leave her, and you understand her actions when you learn about how she was raised to view them as lesser and how she uses the banquet story as evidence of her inner statement of "these people are meant to love me, so anything I do to maintain that status quo is justified" which she uses as a coping mechanism for her mom treating her as nothing but a burden. She and Tohru also have the "We're not so different, you and I" thing going on with certain parallels such as them both being female characters with masculine names and having fathers who were happy to have them but died when they were very young. Another trope that applies is the "villain encouraging the hero to be better" trope, ableit in a roundabout way, as Tohru's big inner conflict throughout the series is feeling like she's not allowed to assert herself (due to her mom having a huge bout of depression after Tohru's father died and forgetting she existed) and her seeing Akito's actions and deciding that she wants to break the curse is a major step to her allowing herself to go after want she wants i.e. breaking the curse to be with Kyo.
One of the best villains I have seen recently is Black Jack from Outlander (the tv show). He is just despicable in every single way. Even in some scenes when you think there could be a drop of humanity in him, he defies your expectations and does something absolutely horrifying. The same actor who plays the villain Black Jack plays Frank, the protagonist’s kind and loving husband who just completely foils Black Jack. I won’t even talk about what he does to Jamie, he’s so freaking sick.
One of my favorite villains ever is Strahd von Zarovich of dungeons and dragons fame. He can be portrayed in so many different ways but at his core he is just so brilliantly done. He truly and deeply believes that he is right and above everyone. He is the epitome of “for me it was just a Tuesday” and you can watch that resolve crack as the heroes get further into the campaign *chef’s kiss*
The perfect balance on the "how much backstory" point must be Joffrey in ASoIaF/GoT. Because we CAN kind of see the psychology behind and how it was influenced by his absent father and narcisistic mother (more so in the series than in the books), but he is so absolutely despicable at the same time that no one would think it "redeems" him in any way.
I don't think he's a villain. He's just a calculating amibigious character that tries to serve his own role with multi-faceted factors. IN the end, you could argue he becomes a supporting main protaganistwhen he join Daenaerys. You could argue he does fit into machiavelli fashion and trope of character that focus mostly on cunning ethod, not especially intelligent(except for his skills in managing and governing due to him inheriting his father's genius) plotting, intrigue and meticulous planning to execute his goals.
@@imran8880 I meant Tyrion in the books, he manipulates , threatens and belittles everyone around him. But specially after the brutal murder of Shae, a girl that cries and is manipulated by Tywin and she really wasn't evil but was trying to survive. In a dance with dragons his villain character gets completed. He is a villain, G.R.R. Martin wrote him that way and the show butchered the shit out him.
@@totticosta2977 W-What show? Oh.. yeah... The books. From what I gather up to now he's not really a villain but more framed as one while in conflict of his own self and morals as he cause more dissonance among people. I'm not justifying his reasons for murdering Shae, but it was driven out of pure rage that his father is a massive hypocrite and the wounds of betrayal is still fresh. He doesn't feel like the quintessential villain to me because his motive hasn't been set in stone even after murdering Tywin and Shae.
I like when villains have a backstory to explain their actions, not to forgive them. Especially if said villain is going to have a redemption arc. I especially love a villain that has a super sad backstory, like Catra and how she grew up as the scape-goat to Adora and lived her whole life being overshadowed by Adora. It just makes the villain more interesting. Another villain trope I love is irredeemable villains. Ones that do have a somewhat sad backstory, but you still absolutely hate them even after you learn their backstory. Like Belos from The Owl House. Oooo last one! I love "cartoonish" or "childish" type villains. Idk how to explain it well. But like Harley Quinn, or Spinel from Steven Universe, or The Collector from The Owl House. Ones that act kinda childish and at the same time like absolute lunatics. Something about that is so intriguing. Almost like an oxymoron.
I'm obsessed with the new content, Leonie! I could listen to you talk for literal hours about ANYTHING, and even more so when it comes to your nuanced and interesting takes.
OMG if you feel like doing a video on all the villains from Legend of Korra I would be eager to watch it! The villains are all so interesting in different ways. It would also be interesting to hear your thoughts on most of the characters from the show! Tenzin's family is probably my favorite and my absolute fave is Bolin💜
amazing video!! I realised I also really like the "dine with me" scenes and didn't know it's a trope but now that you mentioned it I was like omg I love that. the tension while waiting for the villain to flip is sooooo good.
I think the whole mirror person thing with the "I'm the only one that understands you" is also shown in the evil twin trope; literally someone you could've been. I also love the childhood friends who meet again later and turns out they're enemies now, that's also a bit of the "we're not so different" thing. I never thought about it like that but it makes perfect sense that mainstream villains are the only ones who challenge mainstream ideas, but one of my favorite tropes is when the main character's main antagonist is basically just everyone else who is outside of them or their (probably very small) group and those other people's ideas, and then by the end it's like they find a way to prove themselves. I also like the whole thing of "meeting your match" in a villain way; like you may both suck but at least you're meant for each other. The Shadows Between Us is a good example of this I think
Whenever someone talks about good villains, I just can't help but gush about Arcane and how they portrayed Jinx' villain origin story!! One of the best ones there is. The amazing soft world building and all in all great female characters makes it even greater.
Would actually love a video just on female villains! Particularly one of my favorites is Marcella from the sequel to Vicious, because she falls into the category of "just because your actions are justified doesn't mean you're not still evil."
I was waiting for you to talk about Eli and Victor coz that's not a villain video without them. 🧍🏽♀️🧍🏽♀️ and to think that they actually are villain against villain (and not a hero) make them SO MUCH BETTER AND INTERESTING
The false prince has a great villain. I would recommend it, there just so many layers and plot twists and like- I don't want to spoil it, you should just read it
I think you would enjoy Doctor Horrible's sing along blog. The "villain" of the story is the protagonist which gives it a really interesting spin. It also has great songs.
Such a fun video! Enemy being the only one willing to teach MC immediately made me think of Chancellor Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars. Palpatine doesn't start off as a known villain and he perfectly manipulates Anakin, who feels frustration with the jedi council and their rigid ways, to come to the dark side by teaching him how to use the power within him that the jedi refuse to acknowledge.
as a londoner, yes, i can agree. the underground is ridiculous. after living with it for such a long time, however, it eventually just gets subconsciously muffled into this dull background noise that one can easily ignore. this was extremely interesting and very, very useful. at the moment, i'm constructing a villainous character, with generally little to go off of on how to make them *likeable*(?) but also good in terms of malignity. thank you!
One of my favorite tropes is the friends to tragic enemies that still care for each other one. In one of my favorite games "divinity original sin 2" the villain turns out to be the "chosen one protector" guy (like the avatar in ATLA). He discovers a morally cuestionable solution to the evil that plagues the world. So he decides to fake his death and carry on with this lesser evil that he sees as the only posible solution (because its the only thing that has worked so far), despite the horrific nature of the means he needs to implement. One of the playable characters is someone who trusted this "chosen protector" figure and they considered each others friends. Finding out piece by piece that your friend, this holy figure of protection was behind some terrible stuff, is not dead and despite his care for you wants to stop you was amazing. You are threatening his solution (the only solution for the world at that point), the solution that he, as a protector, had to sacrifice so much for, do so much harm for. He asks you first as a friend, to surrender your powers and help him save the world, its only when you refuse that the final confrontation begins. Loved it
Your discussion videos are the best!! I think my favorite villain is Silco (arcane) because his arc was amazing. But Eli from Vicious and Ayt Mada from Green Bone Saga are really good too. Eli because he genuinely thinks he's the good one of the story and for everything you said about him having a common past with Victor and being both morally grey. Ayt Mada because the author (Fonda Lee) made her in a way that she could have been the heroine had the story been told from her perspective.
One of my favorite characters has one of the most beautiful redemption arc I've ever seen... It is definitely Loki💚. He starts as a villain and then becomes something like an anti-hero... Now he's like one of the most loved characters in the entire MCU..
My favourite villains are those with the most tragic fates - the ones who had every chance to react differently, to have said no, to have said yes, to have changed something, _anything_ - and yet you know they never could have, simply because of the person they are, the person they just can’t help being. Those who suffered circumstances beyond their control and never had the opportunity to have already become someone who wouldn’t fall prey to it making them worse. Doomed not by destiny but by the sheer coincidence of circumstance and personality - especially when they’re heroes whose virtues and strengths are the very same facets responsible for their corruption. And especially when they think they’re still doing the right thing, or the wrong thing for the right reasons. I also love - when done well, and made clear, mind you - when the villain does have some quality that has been all too often associated with villainy, like mental illness, queerness, promiscuity, etc., but that’s _completely separate_ to why they’re a villain. Because villains are a hell of a lot of fun, and as someone who is queer and mentally ill and has a whole Pandora’s box of troubles, I don’t want to miss out on the fun of seeing myself represented and reflected there. Everyone should get to experience the fun of every role with no strings attached. I understand that this cannot exist in a vacuum and it’s _much_ harder to manage in media for a mass audience, but when I play D&D, you know there’s no way in hell my villains are ever going to be mentally healthy cishet people. That’s no fun for me and my mentally ill queer friends. XD
I listened to this video of yours and reflected the things you said onto the villain I wrote who is up against his former friends (and teammates). They were the bestest of friends until his four teammates turned against him, because his anger issues became a real problem. While our abandoned villain was trying his best to be good enough for his friends, and even rejecting oppertunities to stand against them with the words: I could never do that to them. Later in the story his friends betray him and even try to kill him. Now, the point of this story is that I just wanted to write a story in which the villain was the one victorious at the end of the story, but litsening to your discriptions of a good villain, I ralised that without realising or intenting it, I wrote an AWESOME villain!! Thank you for the enormous boost that you gave me here!! Also, I LOVE your video's and how you can just talk for like 40 minutes about one toppic explaining every point of view without forcing your opinion on others! It really makes your video's that much more enjoyable. I mean... I've been watching your video's for like more than 3 hours! And that says a LOT! Keep up the good work!
I really liked what you said about the Darkling and Alina. I never read the books properly because I was pressed for time and I couldn't rush through them because I can't enjoy a book without understanding the culture it's set in and I needed more time to figure out what was going on in the background; but I liked the dynamic between the Darkling and Alina in the passages I read A LOT, and think your explanation of why it's so compelling and their balanced tension was on point. And of course I'm so glad you spent time on my beloved Folk of the Air! I didn't know it was called 'blue and orange morality'; but as a history buff I prefer when the antagonist is from a different CULTURAL view which causes the conflict rather than just 'who are the goodies and who are the baddies.' I'll be honest here: I really don't usually like books with villains. I like stories where the enemy is NATURE; people needing to survive horrible circumstances, internal or external or both. War stories come under that heading for me, as most wars are based on 'blue and orange' rather than 'black and white' morality conflicts with decent heroic people on both sides desperately fighting to survive something they didn't start and is really neither army's fault (it's usually the politicians who are the real villains, but they rarely figure in the main story). Being British, I am also a fan of the 'Robin Hood' style crook who isn't REALLY a villain but commits crimes for - well, for the heck of it really. To see if they're smart enough to pull it off, not because they're 'evil' so you root for them even though you know they shouldn't be doing this! My favourite movie, Gambit (the original 1966 version), follows this trope - like most movies Michael Caine played the lead in, like the more famous The Italian Job. My sister and I are so in love with him (😁), and I think he paved the way for my even more serious crush on Spike in Buffy! Who also had a redemption arc, which is honestly my favourite trope - but I rarely like the villain until he starts his redemption arc. I liked Spike and Cardan because I could see the early potential for a redemption arc while they were still the main antagonists (and I'd call them both anti-villains rather than proper villains from the start, anyway. Yes, Spike's a killer but that's because he's a vampire. It's HIS fight for survival. He tries to pull off damaging schemes to make himself look cool, rather than because he's a sadistic monster who enjoys the pain he causes - looking POINTEDLY at you, Angelus - and he is SUCH a softie at times though he'd kill you to prove he wasn't!) I don't like sympathetic villains with sad backstories to 'excuse' them, but I DO like villains who just want power. That's human and understandable but still contemptible and not an example to follow. I like Westerns a lot; and the villain in those is usually a power-hungry cattle baron or superoutlaw who commits crimes and hurts people just to feel they have the most power in the area and so are safe themselves. I get it, but you're wrong and I'm glad when the vigilante gunslinger takes you down! On that subject, I actually detest HEROES who are just as power-hungry as the villain but 'they use their power for good, so it's okay.' I'm too democratic to like ANYONE who thinks they have a right to wield absolute power over others and decide their fates for them, good or bad. So I enjoy a power-hungry villain because they are SUPPOSED to be bad, but not in a control-freak 'hero' who strips all the other characters of their agency under the guise of 'protecting' them. I would rather be killed by the villain than babied by a contemptuous 'hero' who thinks I shouldn't have the freedom to protect myself! (Damsel-in-distress tropes are my greatest pet peeve, regardless of whether or not the distressed are 'damsels.') I don't think it matters whether the villains are female or male; I think the same tropes should apply equally. Female villains deserve equal rights to be hated! 😆😆😆 Anyway, long-winded post to say, great vid! (Edited for spelling 🙂)
I don't know what one I really like is called, but I enjoy when the protagonist or "good guy" you were supposed to be rooting for all for the whole time turns out to be the bad guy. Like there is a plot twist at the end that completely throws off the good guy/bad guy dynamic. Maybe not the best example of it but it's the first one that springs to mind because I finished reading it like 2 days ago is in Rock Paper Scissors by Alice Feeney.
The cartoon she ra and the princesses of power has a lot of tropes I like when it comes to villains. It has childhood friends to enemies to lovers and gives backstories to the villains and the hero goes through a lot of internal moral and identity conflicts as she learns more about her past and her powers. It’s up there with avatar the last air bender as one my favorite cartoon shows.
My favorite villain (he's not completely a villain but) is from an anime/manga called Bungou Stray Dogs. It's about classic authors with superpowers searching for a magical book that can alter reality. The main character is an orphan kicked out of his orphanage and later he joins a Detective Agency and we watch him as he grows. Most of the characters in the anime/manga have tragic backstories, but the plot deals with abuse, trauma, and morally gray characters very well. The "arch-enemy" (Akutagawa) of the protagonist (Atsushi) is a mafia member, who is, morally, the complete opposite of him and they hate each other's guts at first. They have this "we have to work together to defeat the enemy", and "I'm rooting for you aggressively so you can be better" kind of relationship. They both grew up in environments that made them who they are, so different yet so similar personalities. Though the writing has a bit problems i highly recommend reading the manga for anyone who wants to read about a story about trauma in a world of superpowers
On villain backstory: I think the best example of a villain not needing a backstory is the Joke, particularly in The Dark Knight. The Joker is terrifying because we don't know why he's like this. There is no rhyme or reason, we can't understand him and therefore we can't control him or put him in a box. The thing that makes the Joker terrifying is chaos itself.
I really love your video essays! I like your style of telling, the editing, the topics, I also really like the lenghts of them (even though I think my attention span is getting worse from TikTok 😂)
I loved how you broke down all the villain tropes, as someone who's currently struggling with the dynamic between my mc and the antagonist. Originally, I made them to be mortal enemies-- he was her one true source of trauma and the one thing she feared down to her very soul, and she was just a little too uncertain to return it when she had the chance. Problem was that, plot twist, I fell in love with my own villain, spiraled into my own mental cave-in as a mere image of him tormented me in my mind, and I broke BOTH of them in the process. I'm still determined to revive my story, but I feel I need to change their dynamic a lot. I decided that instead of making him some sadistic maniac looking to torture someone who can take the hits for pleasure and fulfillment, he would be not quite an enemy, but a morally-gray people-watcher if you know what I mean. The stage where they're not quite friends, but not quite enemies, and he's pulling the strings behind the scenes to achieve what he ultimately desires in life, rather than directly opposing her to take what he wants on a whim. That way, the entire dynamic would change and the course of the story would flow in a more meaningful direction, giving him many more layers than he originally had. I went to write a sentence of his POV for his motivation and came up with this: “I dare to take tragedy into my palm, and release it before me until a single tear falls from my eye. My sister, my dear sister, she has the most plentiful heart. I’m left with only a vacancy where I can only hope it once was.” He wants to feel emotion, guilt, empathy, etc. like other people, and he's willing to do anything to achieve that-- even release a tragedy upon anyone and everyone until he somehow feels sorry for it. In my story, the true main conflict is something on a much bigger scale than any one person. The conflict is in a "dark root" that takes hold of human hearts and locks them up so that they can't feel like other people, and they can't discern between right and wrong. It empties them and leaves them longing for something that seems eternally missing, so they spiral into destructive behavior. The antagonist in question is particularly problematic in that he has two of these "dark roots", and so not only is he blocked from feeling empathy or really any emotion at all, but he's more inclined to be extremely unpredictable, because even while he consciously has heard of the rules he's meant to follow, he's inclined to do everything and experience all that he's been told not to do. And because of the second one, he is also constantly plagued with a throbbing, aching pain that doesn't go away unless he releases it upon another person. It doesn't make him blameless in the least, but it provides a good reasoning. Perhaps in the end I could give him a redemption arc, but that's only if the protag group found a way to remove the dark roots inside him, and on top of that he'd have to be willing to put his pride aside, beg for forgiveness, and try to fix what he broke over the years. Otherwise, there's no way anyone would forgive him. So I may not go that way, but it's a possibility with the way his mind works, though he's extremely selfish by nature.
Catchier name for "villain-is-the-only-one-that-is-willing-to-teach-the-mc-to-reach-their-true-potential" trope: Menacing Mentorship.
Or 'I can show you'
love it!
@@saskia5644 sounds a bit sus
that's just mob psycho 100.
AARON WARNER
oh! a villain trope i love so much is when the hero and villain have to spontaneously team up in the middle of a fight because something worse happened
OMG
I NEED TO GO WRITE THIS TROPE _RIGHT NOW_
i’m a bit late, but do you (or anyone else) have recommendations for this trope?
@@alma3468 in a way, except the protagonist is the villain people have to team up with. "shadow of the conqueror" by shad brooks. the protagonist is a deposed dictator whos given a second chance at life to make things right but no one knows its actual him because he looks different. its very good if you also like a really muddy path to redemption.
@@alma3468 Movie Sinbad legend if the seven seas- the beginning. also clocks friends to enemies and a redemption
@@alma3468Pirates of the Caribbean movies 2-3 I believe. Great villain-turned-partner but I won’t spoil which character it is.
The third female villain trope is where her whole personality is being in love with the male lead lol
misa from death note lol
@@malublue1013she’s not really villain tho, is she?
Shout out to every cdrama love rival ever
@@basement_gremlin2577 She’s a villain, just not an antagonist.
@@basement_gremlin2577 considering how her morals are very questionable and her only motivation is self gain (light's affection) i would consider her a bad person/villain.
Homelander from The Boys is probably among the top 3 scariest villains of all time and he should be permanently included in every villain discourse
i've heard so many good things about him, i'm considering watching The boys haha
@@TheBookLeo you really, really should! It's so good 😁
@The Book Leo watch it! The show in general is SO good!
@@TheBookLeo the show is absolutely amazing but... Very, very graphic. Just letting you know 😂
Another one in that same area is "Invincible"...can't talk much about the villain here because of spoilers but holy cow
I think the 'complex backstory: yes or no?'-question depends on the genre quite a bit. We all love the iconic villains of renaissance era Disney (Scar, Ursula, Gaston) not because of their tragic past, but because they have such a menacing presence and are just having a lot of fun being evil. In those cases, adding a tragic backstory will do the story more harm than good. A good example is the Cruella live action movie, in which it's explained that Cruella's mom (or someone else, i don't remember) was killed by dalmatians. We don't really need a tragic backstory for the puppy skinning villain. Of course there are exceptions, Frollo being one of my favourite Disney villains because of his complexity, but it's fair to say that different genres will lead to different answers to the question.
Except the live action cruella wasn't evil, just an anti-villian. This version isn't skinning dogs, just pretending she does.
I find ur insight intriuging. I'd love to analyze more on the impact that different genres have on villains as well as how different intended audiences can impact it as well because when it all boils down, we love diff villains for diff reasons and they r plenty of factors that can change how we perceive things
@@hijabiloser313 8t also depends on what type of villain. To use star Wars as an example, Palpatine doesn't need a personal backstory to work, just his rise to power. But Vader's backstory makes his redemption more impactful.
In Arcane, I love the combination of getting the explanation and backstory of how Jinx became the villain she is. While we at the same time accept that she also is quite crazy and "evil" just because she's unhinged.
@@kingofhearts3185 But don't you like to know more about the tell of Darth Plagueis the wise?
Explanation is not an excuse : I completely agree ! I love having a backstory for the villain that explains why they turned out to be what they are, but I hate it when it is considered as an excuse.
Especially when it is used so that the female mc can be with him without feeling guilty
I believe that relates to the trope "Woobie, destroyer of worlds," where an incredibly evil villain becomes one due to exaggerated abuse and shitty life.
I have seen plenty of examples, and they are usually hard to take seriously 😂
@@YEY0806 I feel like that describes a majority of creepypasta characters.
@@edorasmarauder5761 I don't know creepy pasta's villains that much, can you give examples?
@@YEY0806 Jeff the Killer is the only one I can think of. So, dude was bullied and decided to kill his whole family.
I also love characters who are technically nemeses but also have like a chill best friend/ah my old friend vibe like perry the platypus and dr. doofenshmirtz or jake peralta and doug judy or professor x and magneto. (p.s. loved the video!!! also i continue to be in love with your earring collection! obsessed with the howl earrings)
yesss i agree!
jake peralta and doug judy are a pretty iconic duo to be honest
This is actually a trope called Enemy Mine.
perry and dr doofenshmirtz relationship was always so great, it's 🔛🔝
Yes idk if anybody has ever read the book series lupin but that totally has that vibe
I like the magical stone in Leonie's fireplace, shining bright with the trapped souls of her subscribers. Such cozy vibes 🥰
People couldn't see her bottles and flames at the same time, so she started bottling up our souls
Im guessing it's a salt lamp
@@nataliapanchyshyn385 I was about to write the same. A lot of my older relatives have them.
Salt from the tears of the Book Leo's enemies
@@nataliapanchyshyn385 It's such a cool lamp! I love it 🙂 This mysterious, glowing light. A wondrous stone with this magical inner space, and you can't tell how deep it goes
The trope of the villain being the only one who is willing to assist the main character in reaching their full potential is reminding me a lot of Hannibal and Will, or of Erik of Phantom of the Opera. Love the trope, too!
Hannibal was interesting in the show, I hope it gets a proper conclusion.
My favourite villain trope which isn't done nearly enough is where at the end the hero realizes that the villain was right all along, and/or even if he they are defeated in the traditional sense, the villain ends up winning in the end. Ozymandias from Watchmen is perfect example of this.
An amazing "antagonist" is Jinx in the Arcane series !!!! The dynamics between her and her sister are just perfect and you understand both of their points of view
I would even say you can't really root for either of them since it's just too sad to see how their relationship collapsed
I agree. And there's not really one person you can point at and say "it's your fault." Almost everyone were just victims of really horrible circumstances.
Maybe not so much of a trope, but I love it when the villain thinks "they're the hero of their own story". It changes the perspective, I feel like.
Anton Chigurh from No Country For Old Men is a great villain who is "evil for no reason". We don't know his backstory and his motivations aren't clear, but this is a big part of why he's so scary - it's the fear of the unknown because we just can't fathom why he does what he does, and makes him inhuman to the point where you almost feel like he's not even a human but some kind of a personification of evil
Yes, Chigurh stole the show in that movie. A more typical Russian 'evil for no reason' is in the Jack Reacher movie, the first one, starring Tom Cruise. They provide a backstory that helps bing some sympathy for him but in the end he's just too unambiguously bad to give him the benefit of any doubts. Another one of that mold is in the Denzel Washington movie, The Equalizer. In the Keanu Reeves movies - the name escapes me - that type of villain is featured but without the same intensity.
one of my favorite tropes is : "Villian x Hero used to be in a relationship -until x happened to ruin it for them- " and we all know they'd be an insane power couple if things worked out. Also the steamy spice scenes that come from this trope 🔥🔥 One funny example I can think of is Barnabas Collins and Angelique from Dark Shadows.
I used to watch that sometimes in the afternoons because it was popular in my household. I'm afraid I can't remember too much about it but your description sounds right.
Grindeldore
Unpopular opinion? Harry Potter has a good and a bad example of the (sad) backstory villain trope. The good one is learning about Voldemorts backstory, because it's it's interesting and opens the possibility to draw parallels between his childhood an the protagonists, leading to the possibility of great internal conflict and worrying other characters. It also doesn't get used as an excuse for what he does.
The bad one could have been very good and interesting, but was badly written as a cover all, total redemption: Severus Snape. He was bullied and his crush wasn't reciprocated. So he joins a murdering racist-analogy, gets the protagonists parents killed, bullies years and years of students, including but definitely not limited to the main character, uses his authority to demoralise, endanger and punish students, while encouraging and helping bullies if they are in his favourite group.
Feeling bad that his old love died (and ONLY about her), he double crosses the guy who killed her.
In the end the protagonist calls him a hero for that?! And names a child after this adult teacher who bullied him for as long as he could/lived. Like wth ...
I was all good with Snape having an explanation for his beef with Harry but having him be a 'hero' in the end instead of just a complex character was kind of pushy imo
yeah, either he shouldve gotten a better redemption and explained better or shouldve stayed as a complex/morally grey character
Strongly agree. I got the the part where we see Snape's backstory and went "Huh, ok that does explain a lot. Interesting." And then a few chapters later read "Albus Severus Potter, you were named for two or the greatest headmasters Hogwarts ever had." And I was like UMMMMMMMM _greatest?????_
Strongly agree as well
Voldemort was an awful villain backstory. Literally no reason for his villainy and nothing really explained as the reason in his backstory other than Dumbledore basically arguing he was born evil. lmao
My favourite movie is "catch me if you can" and I'm not even sure how to describe the dynamic between Frank Abagnale Jr. and Carl Hanratty.. Frank is a criminal but you're kinda rooting for him anyway and Carl's just doing his job so you can't fault him for that 🤔 yet they both respect each other..
This movie just makes me feel so many things 😍
I haven't seen "catch me if you can" but that synopsis reminds me of the villain-hero dynamic of "knives out"
Yes, Hanks and Decaprio are two of America's best actors. I believe CMIYC is based on a true-life case but the fabulous chemistry between the FBI guy and the scammer is definitely a product of their good work together.
Lupin the III and Interpol agent Zenigata. What makes me love them so much is that when shit gets real, they're willing to put their beef to the side for the greater good. But second it's settled they're back to their cat mouse dance.
that movie is so interesting and great, their dynamic is so interesting
Magneto is one of my favorite villains because it's so hard to get a villain who actually has good points and proves how easy it would be for the main characters to have defected to a more "antagonistic" side. He challenges the status quo and pokes holes in the X-Men's reasons for fighting and is often able to persuade members to convert to the brotherhood. He has the right ideas but the wrong execution and you often end up rooting for him when the "good guys" methods just don't get things done.
If you like David Tennant you'll probably like Good Omens (both a book and a TV show). It kind of fits the villain theme because he plays a literal demon who develops the most heart-warming friendship with an angel as they both try and avert the apocalypse.
Good Omens is such a cool show with so many interesting character dynamics, cool to see it mentioned here
I see Crowley as a failed villain. Humanity doesn't really need him to do bad things. Like when he gets some type of promotion from hell for an inquisition he didn't even know about ... and of course, being friends with an angel doesn't help either.
We don't care if there's already a female-villain-vid from someone else, WE NEED IT FROM YOUUU 😭
I SWEAR ON MY LIFE I HAVE NEVER CLICKED A VIDEO THIS FAST
Same here ✨
I think Collins mastered the “explanation but not excuse” with Snow’s backstory in A Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes.
She found that perfect mix of privilege/entitlement and genuine childhood trauma to plant the seed of his hatred; then added the influence of groomers to nurture his choices. He still had agency in his choices, but works as a fair warning. It also underscored how he and Katniss really were two sides of the same coin; and added to the “punch” of him contributing to her ultimate choice to reject the process. In no way does this redeem him, but together Snow and Katniss serve as a warning for all of us about how we allow ourselves to be influenced when we are vulnerable.
A build up of how the villain’s greed and desires, shape them to who they are is always compelling.
President Snow is an example of this as he wasn’t this maniacal evil in the beginning but his professor brought out the worst in him.
If only I could show ALL your videos to my high school students and tell them "THIS is how you construct a decent essay with a proper intro, conclusion and examples of evidence!! Now do this on paper!!" What the heck... I might as well try. 😆
I just rewatched an anime called Monster and it's a masterclass in storytelling and the whole dynamics between heroes and villains, highly recommend!
I read Vicious and Vengeful literally right after I watched this video when it came out, due to my friend recommending it but not saying it was a FRIENDS TO ENEMIES??? HELLO?? So immediately i read the series and like. it was fantastic and I’m never going to get over it. I loved that both protagonists were so blatantly horrible people, and I just found myself loving Eli so much. Eli and Victor’s dynamic was also just. chefs kiss. Best thing ever.
Homelander in The Boys is THE best villain writing i’ve seen. You just love to hate him, and he’s so unpredictable and terrifying, but you can’t help but wonder “omg how is homelander going to react to this”. And the whole show really just turns the superhero trope on its head. Also anime wise, I will always recommend Fruits Basket because it makes you put yourself if the villain’s shoes. Plus, has my favorite love story of all time
I feel like Darth Vader is one of the greatest villains of all time. He’s got backstory, is kind of an ass by himself (as Anakin), he’s got a specific goal that made him the way he is (saving Padmé), and he has a redemption arc. Absolutely perfect combination for me
Edit: oh also he was totally being groomed for villainy by Palpatine his entire life so the cards are stacked against him
Vader will always be the perfect image of the best kind of villain for me. Like you said, his backstory, motivation, fall, power, manipulation, redemption,... it all just comes together so well.
I can really recommend "Moriarty the patriot" It's a retelling of the Holmes universe and has the arch-enemy, explanations, equality tropes and the psychology around the moriarty BROTHERS is just amazing.
Villain characters have far more interesting dynamics. We appreciate your analysis. Keep up the good work.
SOPHIA WHAT ARE U DOING IN EVERY COMMENT SECTION I SEE
ronan and kavinsky from the raven cycle are a perfect example of the “protagonist that could have so easily been the antagonist” and also “antagonist is the only one who can teach protagonist to fully use their powers” which i think is what makes their dynamic so interesting
"No Mr. Bond, I expect you to dine with me" is literally the villain in Addie Larue
I was thinking the same thing!
I really love villains that are villains just for the thrill of it. They are sassy, and seductive and super iconic always
I think Harry Potter and Tom Riddle are amazing examples of two people who have such similar upbringings, above average talent and yet they make completely different choices
ouuuuuu that´s a good one
A female-specfic villain deep dive would be awesome! I find that female antagonists either act like they're a part of petty teenage crews or are an underling to a stronger male villain. It really annoys me! I want greater range!!
Baba Yaga from Spirited Away was a good soft antagonist. She had power, motivation, maliciousness and was at times unpredicable and capable of self-restraint. But she does veer towards being the mother trope, like you mentioned.
Makima from Chainsaw Man was effective. She was unnerving and the readers were never fully aware of her powers until the last act. But she used sexual manipulation to blindside Denji, though that is an explicit character flaw of his so the context changes it a little; she wasn't a sexy character by default but instead played into Denji's desires to control him. Still, femme-fatals are overused no matter what imo, or at least maybe only vampire stories can justifyably call upon their ladies to be sexy because their men are sexy too. Sexuality and sexual desires have been part of vampire branding since the first (Western) vampire stories were published haha
One of my favourite villains, although she is both a villain and a protagonist, is my queen Amy Dunne from Gone Girl. Amy’s backstory does somewhat establish her parents as nutcases and Nick as a prick, but never to an extent that would explain her psychotic behaviour. Amy is evil because she can, because she’s smart enough and remorseless enough to pull it off, and so she does. The story shows that despite external facteurs making her most likely a lot worse, she was still manipulative and cruel from the start and I honestly think it’s kinda brilliant. And I still root for her constantly, even if she should be easy to hate because she doesn’t really have that sad backstory.
Also, villain recommendations ! Dracula : Das Musical is literally so iconic, it awakens the simp in me like nothing else AND made me cry BUCKETS at the end.
The villain teaching the mc to reach their full potential is fully the shatter me trope lol
I was so excited that someone is actually discussing Kilgrave and how good of a villain he is in a circle that I am in. There is something to be said about how terrifying a villain is when I have to stop watching the show and come back to it much later mentally prepared. Kilgrave terrified me to my core.
(Coming from an avid reading of thrillers and horror)
An underrated trait for villains in my book is resilience. Not power, not some sort of fanaticism necessarily, but a strength of will that makes them come back every time they are dealt a strong blow, a sense of personal values due that drives them no matter what. Bonus points if they accidentally end up inspiring the good guys. A bit of a generic example could be when a third power imprisons the MC and their nemesis, and the villain tells the mentally beaten down MC to pick themselves up and form some temporary alliance to escape. This obviously implies a villain who would rather beat the hero when the hero is at their best.
The TV show "Dark" is mind-blowing with it's villain tropes. Highly, highly recommend!
Yesss oh my god. I was so nervous when the last season came out and I just had to binge-watch it because I couldn't sleep without knowing the end
@@MozzieA same! I watched it till deep into the night!
When you mentioned the villain is the only one who is willing to teach the main character his true potential i thought of the Dream Thieves (second book in The Raven Cycle) it also works with the well we're not so different you and I!
yesss i also thought of the dream thieves immediately
THE POPPY WAR- literally adore how they play with characters and their morals and such, especially as the series continues and character arcs continue to unfold. Awesome video!
everything RF Kuang writes is straight fire
TV show rec, my fave of all time: *BLACK SAILS* (unless you've already seen it). every character has a little bit of villainy in them, but you enjoy watching all of them sooo much that it's devastating when any die bc god they were just so INTERESTING. best writing of any show i've ever seen, and the show runners decided to wrap it up after 4 seasons instead of dragging it along because they knew how they wanted to end it and it's done soooooo wellllll. omgggg. there are conversations where the tension is so palpable it's like a fridge laying on top of you and you can't move but you love every moment of it
Came here looking for this comment. I'm currently rewatching Black Sails and oh my god, every character is fascinating. And I agree, it's one of the best written shows I've ever seen. Captain Flint has got to be one of my favorite characters of all times, and his relationship with Silver is just... *Chef's Kiss*
One of my favourites too. Flint is so grey, but damn I love him
My sweet spot for (sake of being evil) villains is how Lady Tremane was portrayed in Cinderella 2015. Evil asf, but with enough context to make her human without redeeming her whatsoever.
All the first 3 examples you gave for good villains (Alina-Darkling, Korra-Amon, Kell-Holland) had me screaming bc I love all of them so much, thank you for appreciating them!!!!!!
spike from buffy the vampire slayer will forever be one of the best villains for me, and that’s absolutely the best enemies to lovers story.
his backstory wasn’t originally planned because he wasn’t meant to stay around as long as he did, but even from his introduction he’s already a layered and interesting bad guy who really shifts your perspective of evil. the backstory they weave in layer makes perfect sense. he’s a foil to buffy but so much more too. he’s a mirror, as she is for him, and every moment of their dynamic is so crunchy and endlessly compelling.
21:50
You're literally talking about "Shatter me" series. Especially the 3rd book. Aaron the villain was pushing the protagonist to discover her true potential instead of being afraid of it.
You have to watch Mr. Robot! You mentioned how there aren’t enough shows that focus on the protagonists that are pushing for radical change often and it often being only the villains but this show is all about that complexity and how far the protagonists are willing to go to meet their goals. It’s incredibly nuanced and complex. Heavy social commentary and incredible characters!
Catra has one of the best redemption arcs and it's extremely underrated, I would even dare to compare it to zuko's
Still need to watch the She-Ra show. My example for a good redemption arc is Faith from Buffy/Angel.
"No Mr. Bond I want you to Dine" immediately made me think of Hannibal having people for over for dinner and he serves them human
This isn’t niche at all but Light Yagami from Death Note is an excellent villain protagonist.
@The Book Leo I am sure you already seen this anime, but I also wanted to recommend Death Note just in case.
@@janospillinger3233 Yes, I have! Thank you!
I need more videos about villain tropes. Hate it when I’m watching a really really good video and the creator says “but this video’s gone on for long enough” like noooooo keep going off homie this is too good!
Some villain tropes that I dig:
- the fallen hero/corruption arc
- the villain who does chaotic things not because they necessarily want to, but they feel that they HAVE to be that sort of force (Anton Chigurh from No Country For Old Men for example)
- having a badass fortress/lair/castle
- villain who is awful to humans but has a pet that they care deeply for
- “the dreaded” as it’s called on tvtropes. Basically when a villain is feared by everyone. Characters where just mentioning their name makes a room full of cold, hardened criminals even fall silent. I LIVE for scenes where characters tell stories of how horrifying a character is, with their voice trembling as ominous music plays.
I am unapologetically in love with Hannibal Lecter 😂 also he has a lot of those tropes you mentioned at first going on with Will. Like, he wants to guide him and help him reach his true potential, of course that potential is being as savage and flamboyant a killer as himself 😂😂😂 but he is the only one that gets his dark side. He also has the “for me it was just tuesday” thing with everything he does to him to “help him along” in getting there
Have you read/watched Moriarty the Patriot? It's a retelling of Sherlock Holmes focusing on Moriarty and IT'S SO GOOD I'M OBSESSED.
Your point about villains being the only ones being allowed to fight for change and MCs never doing so makes me think of Mo Dao Zu Shi by MXTX, where the MC is perceived as the villain by other characters in the story bc of their inducing change and persisting for that even at the cost of innocent lives! I think it interestingly flips the status quo vs. change plot line we see in a lot of mass media, and the villain in the story is amazing too!
Oh my goodness, Shades of Magic, The villains series, Babel, The hunger games? I live these books, and I love that you do to.
Don't know if you've see in but Galavant is a show with awesome writing. The hero himself, Galavant, King Richard, and every one else is just awesome every single minute. And don't even get me started on the character development of them both. The pilot episode is a bit weird, but by the 3rd episode you'll be so deep in, you wouldn't want to stop watching the series. (talking from experience)
Recently, Silco from Arcane has become one of my favorite. Evil methods, evil morals yet for a cause that is very noble. Like you said in the video ''ends don't justify the means'' he is a peak example!!
vicious is honestly an all time fav of mine cause i love the dynamic between vic and eli :3
call me crazy, but the best villain is the one you can ship with the hero and KNOW that of they ended up together you would watch them set the world on fire and still be happy
I think Akito Sohma (Fruits Basket) is a great example of a villain who has trauma that explains but doesn't excuse their actions. [SPOILERS]
You constantly see her manipulate and abuse the zodiac members so that they never leave her, and you understand her actions when you learn about how she was raised to view them as lesser and how she uses the banquet story as evidence of her inner statement of "these people are meant to love me, so anything I do to maintain that status quo is justified" which she uses as a coping mechanism for her mom treating her as nothing but a burden.
She and Tohru also have the "We're not so different, you and I" thing going on with certain parallels such as them both being female characters with masculine names and having fathers who were happy to have them but died when they were very young. Another trope that applies is the "villain encouraging the hero to be better" trope, ableit in a roundabout way, as Tohru's big inner conflict throughout the series is feeling like she's not allowed to assert herself (due to her mom having a huge bout of depression after Tohru's father died and forgetting she existed) and her seeing Akito's actions and deciding that she wants to break the curse is a major step to her allowing herself to go after want she wants i.e. breaking the curse to be with Kyo.
One of the best villains I have seen recently is Black Jack from Outlander (the tv show). He is just despicable in every single way. Even in some scenes when you think there could be a drop of humanity in him, he defies your expectations and does something absolutely horrifying. The same actor who plays the villain Black Jack plays Frank, the protagonist’s kind and loving husband who just completely foils Black Jack. I won’t even talk about what he does to Jamie, he’s so freaking sick.
One of my favorite villains ever is Strahd von Zarovich of dungeons and dragons fame. He can be portrayed in so many different ways but at his core he is just so brilliantly done. He truly and deeply believes that he is right and above everyone. He is the epitome of “for me it was just a Tuesday” and you can watch that resolve crack as the heroes get further into the campaign *chef’s kiss*
The perfect balance on the "how much backstory" point must be Joffrey in ASoIaF/GoT. Because we CAN kind of see the psychology behind and how it was influenced by his absent father and narcisistic mother (more so in the series than in the books), but he is so absolutely despicable at the same time that no one would think it "redeems" him in any way.
Tyrion from the book "a song of Ice and fire" is my favorite villain, smart, vengeful and created after years of abuse because of the way he looked.
I don't think he's a villain. He's just a calculating amibigious character that tries to serve his own role with multi-faceted factors. IN the end, you could argue he becomes a supporting main protaganistwhen he join Daenaerys.
You could argue he does fit into machiavelli fashion and trope of character that focus mostly on cunning ethod, not especially intelligent(except for his skills in managing and governing due to him inheriting his father's genius) plotting, intrigue and meticulous planning to execute his goals.
@@imran8880 I meant Tyrion in the books, he manipulates , threatens and belittles everyone around him. But specially after the brutal murder of Shae, a girl that cries and is manipulated by Tywin and she really wasn't evil but was trying to survive. In a dance with dragons his villain character gets completed. He is a villain, G.R.R. Martin wrote him that way and the show butchered the shit out him.
@@totticosta2977 W-What show? Oh.. yeah... The books.
From what I gather up to now he's not really a villain but more framed as one while in conflict of his own self and morals as he cause more dissonance among people. I'm not justifying his reasons for murdering Shae, but it was driven out of pure rage that his father is a massive hypocrite and the wounds of betrayal is still fresh. He doesn't feel like the quintessential villain to me because his motive hasn't been set in stone even after murdering Tywin and Shae.
@@imran8880 Agree to disagree.
I like when villains have a backstory to explain their actions, not to forgive them. Especially if said villain is going to have a redemption arc. I especially love a villain that has a super sad backstory, like Catra and how she grew up as the scape-goat to Adora and lived her whole life being overshadowed by Adora. It just makes the villain more interesting.
Another villain trope I love is irredeemable villains. Ones that do have a somewhat sad backstory, but you still absolutely hate them even after you learn their backstory. Like Belos from The Owl House.
Oooo last one! I love "cartoonish" or "childish" type villains. Idk how to explain it well. But like Harley Quinn, or Spinel from Steven Universe, or The Collector from The Owl House. Ones that act kinda childish and at the same time like absolute lunatics. Something about that is so intriguing. Almost like an oxymoron.
You don't even have to hate the villain of the second trope you mentioned, just disagree with their morally bad actions.
I'm obsessed with the new content, Leonie! I could listen to you talk for literal hours about ANYTHING, and even more so when it comes to your nuanced and interesting takes.
OMG if you feel like doing a video on all the villains from Legend of Korra I would be eager to watch it! The villains are all so interesting in different ways. It would also be interesting to hear your thoughts on most of the characters from the show! Tenzin's family is probably my favorite and my absolute fave is Bolin💜
amazing video!! I realised I also really like the "dine with me" scenes and didn't know it's a trope but now that you mentioned it I was like omg I love that. the tension while waiting for the villain to flip is sooooo good.
The best villians are the ones that have reasons that are understandable but not excusable, agreed
i highly recommend the loki series. it literally has the trope of ‘for me, it was tuesday’
Omg yess one of my favourites
I think the whole mirror person thing with the "I'm the only one that understands you" is also shown in the evil twin trope; literally someone you could've been. I also love the childhood friends who meet again later and turns out they're enemies now, that's also a bit of the "we're not so different" thing.
I never thought about it like that but it makes perfect sense that mainstream villains are the only ones who challenge mainstream ideas, but one of my favorite tropes is when the main character's main antagonist is basically just everyone else who is outside of them or their (probably very small) group and those other people's ideas, and then by the end it's like they find a way to prove themselves.
I also like the whole thing of "meeting your match" in a villain way; like you may both suck but at least you're meant for each other. The Shadows Between Us is a good example of this I think
Whenever someone talks about good villains, I just can't help but gush about Arcane and how they portrayed Jinx' villain origin story!! One of the best ones there is. The amazing soft world building and all in all great female characters makes it even greater.
Would actually love a video just on female villains! Particularly one of my favorites is Marcella from the sequel to Vicious, because she falls into the category of "just because your actions are justified doesn't mean you're not still evil."
I was waiting for you to talk about Eli and Victor coz that's not a villain video without them. 🧍🏽♀️🧍🏽♀️ and to think that they actually are villain against villain (and not a hero) make them SO MUCH BETTER AND INTERESTING
The false prince has a great villain. I would recommend it, there just so many layers and plot twists and like- I don't want to spoil it, you should just read it
I think you would enjoy Doctor Horrible's sing along blog. The "villain" of the story is the protagonist which gives it a really interesting spin. It also has great songs.
Such a fun video! Enemy being the only one willing to teach MC immediately made me think of Chancellor Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars. Palpatine doesn't start off as a known villain and he perfectly manipulates Anakin, who feels frustration with the jedi council and their rigid ways, to come to the dark side by teaching him how to use the power within him that the jedi refuse to acknowledge.
as a londoner, yes, i can agree. the underground is ridiculous. after living with it for such a long time, however, it eventually just gets subconsciously muffled into this dull background noise that one can easily ignore.
this was extremely interesting and very, very useful. at the moment, i'm constructing a villainous character, with generally little to go off of on how to make them *likeable*(?) but also good in terms of malignity. thank you!
David Tennant does one of the best villain voices ever.
100% One of the most terrifying experiences of my life
I love it here. This entire video is why the relationship between Frank Castle and Billy Russo in the Punisher is so interesting!
I've never been this early, was waiting for this one eagerly. So excited to watch!
One of my favorite tropes is the friends to tragic enemies that still care for each other one. In one of my favorite games "divinity original sin 2" the villain turns out to be the "chosen one protector" guy (like the avatar in ATLA). He discovers a morally cuestionable solution to the evil that plagues the world. So he decides to fake his death and carry on with this lesser evil that he sees as the only posible solution (because its the only thing that has worked so far), despite the horrific nature of the means he needs to implement. One of the playable characters is someone who trusted this "chosen protector" figure and they considered each others friends. Finding out piece by piece that your friend, this holy figure of protection was behind some terrible stuff, is not dead and despite his care for you wants to stop you was amazing. You are threatening his solution (the only solution for the world at that point), the solution that he, as a protector, had to sacrifice so much for, do so much harm for. He asks you first as a friend, to surrender your powers and help him save the world, its only when you refuse that the final confrontation begins. Loved it
i LOVE when the villains turn out to have been someone the character knew all along, someone they respected or even loved.
Your discussion videos are the best!! I think my favorite villain is Silco (arcane) because his arc was amazing. But Eli from Vicious and Ayt Mada from Green Bone Saga are really good too. Eli because he genuinely thinks he's the good one of the story and for everything you said about him having a common past with Victor and being both morally grey. Ayt Mada because the author (Fonda Lee) made her in a way that she could have been the heroine had the story been told from her perspective.
One of my favorite characters has one of the most beautiful redemption arc I've ever seen... It is definitely Loki💚. He starts as a villain and then becomes something like an anti-hero...
Now he's like one of the most loved characters in the entire MCU..
My favourite villains are those with the most tragic fates - the ones who had every chance to react differently, to have said no, to have said yes, to have changed something, _anything_ - and yet you know they never could have, simply because of the person they are, the person they just can’t help being. Those who suffered circumstances beyond their control and never had the opportunity to have already become someone who wouldn’t fall prey to it making them worse. Doomed not by destiny but by the sheer coincidence of circumstance and personality - especially when they’re heroes whose virtues and strengths are the very same facets responsible for their corruption. And especially when they think they’re still doing the right thing, or the wrong thing for the right reasons.
I also love - when done well, and made clear, mind you - when the villain does have some quality that has been all too often associated with villainy, like mental illness, queerness, promiscuity, etc., but that’s _completely separate_ to why they’re a villain. Because villains are a hell of a lot of fun, and as someone who is queer and mentally ill and has a whole Pandora’s box of troubles, I don’t want to miss out on the fun of seeing myself represented and reflected there. Everyone should get to experience the fun of every role with no strings attached. I understand that this cannot exist in a vacuum and it’s _much_ harder to manage in media for a mass audience, but when I play D&D, you know there’s no way in hell my villains are ever going to be mentally healthy cishet people. That’s no fun for me and my mentally ill queer friends. XD
I listened to this video of yours and reflected the things you said onto the villain I wrote who is up against his former friends (and teammates). They were the bestest of friends until his four teammates turned against him, because his anger issues became a real problem. While our abandoned villain was trying his best to be good enough for his friends, and even rejecting oppertunities to stand against them with the words: I could never do that to them. Later in the story his friends betray him and even try to kill him.
Now, the point of this story is that I just wanted to write a story in which the villain was the one victorious at the end of the story, but litsening to your discriptions of a good villain, I ralised that without realising or intenting it, I wrote an AWESOME villain!! Thank you for the enormous boost that you gave me here!!
Also, I LOVE your video's and how you can just talk for like 40 minutes about one toppic explaining every point of view without forcing your opinion on others! It really makes your video's that much more enjoyable. I mean... I've been watching your video's for like more than 3 hours! And that says a LOT! Keep up the good work!
I really liked what you said about the Darkling and Alina. I never read the books properly because I was pressed for time and I couldn't rush through them because I can't enjoy a book without understanding the culture it's set in and I needed more time to figure out what was going on in the background; but I liked the dynamic between the Darkling and Alina in the passages I read A LOT, and think your explanation of why it's so compelling and their balanced tension was on point. And of course I'm so glad you spent time on my beloved Folk of the Air! I didn't know it was called 'blue and orange morality'; but as a history buff I prefer when the antagonist is from a different CULTURAL view which causes the conflict rather than just 'who are the goodies and who are the baddies.'
I'll be honest here: I really don't usually like books with villains. I like stories where the enemy is NATURE; people needing to survive horrible circumstances, internal or external or both. War stories come under that heading for me, as most wars are based on 'blue and orange' rather than 'black and white' morality conflicts with decent heroic people on both sides desperately fighting to survive something they didn't start and is really neither army's fault (it's usually the politicians who are the real villains, but they rarely figure in the main story).
Being British, I am also a fan of the 'Robin Hood' style crook who isn't REALLY a villain but commits crimes for - well, for the heck of it really. To see if they're smart enough to pull it off, not because they're 'evil' so you root for them even though you know they shouldn't be doing this! My favourite movie, Gambit (the original 1966 version), follows this trope - like most movies Michael Caine played the lead in, like the more famous The Italian Job. My sister and I are so in love with him (😁), and I think he paved the way for my even more serious crush on Spike in Buffy! Who also had a redemption arc, which is honestly my favourite trope - but I rarely like the villain until he starts his redemption arc. I liked Spike and Cardan because I could see the early potential for a redemption arc while they were still the main antagonists (and I'd call them both anti-villains rather than proper villains from the start, anyway. Yes, Spike's a killer but that's because he's a vampire. It's HIS fight for survival. He tries to pull off damaging schemes to make himself look cool, rather than because he's a sadistic monster who enjoys the pain he causes - looking POINTEDLY at you, Angelus - and he is SUCH a softie at times though he'd kill you to prove he wasn't!)
I don't like sympathetic villains with sad backstories to 'excuse' them, but I DO like villains who just want power. That's human and understandable but still contemptible and not an example to follow. I like Westerns a lot; and the villain in those is usually a power-hungry cattle baron or superoutlaw who commits crimes and hurts people just to feel they have the most power in the area and so are safe themselves. I get it, but you're wrong and I'm glad when the vigilante gunslinger takes you down!
On that subject, I actually detest HEROES who are just as power-hungry as the villain but 'they use their power for good, so it's okay.' I'm too democratic to like ANYONE who thinks they have a right to wield absolute power over others and decide their fates for them, good or bad. So I enjoy a power-hungry villain because they are SUPPOSED to be bad, but not in a control-freak 'hero' who strips all the other characters of their agency under the guise of 'protecting' them. I would rather be killed by the villain than babied by a contemptuous 'hero' who thinks I shouldn't have the freedom to protect myself! (Damsel-in-distress tropes are my greatest pet peeve, regardless of whether or not the distressed are 'damsels.')
I don't think it matters whether the villains are female or male; I think the same tropes should apply equally. Female villains deserve equal rights to be hated! 😆😆😆
Anyway, long-winded post to say, great vid!
(Edited for spelling 🙂)
“Their a bit violent and maybe they kill some one”
Pip fitz-amboni: nervous sweating
"no mr. bond, i expect you to dine" reminds me so much of Moriarty the Patriot anime/manga, and i think you'll like it!!
Hoping I can summon a whole fandom with the name of one villain: Maven Calore
I don't know what one I really like is called, but I enjoy when the protagonist or "good guy" you were supposed to be rooting for all for the whole time turns out to be the bad guy. Like there is a plot twist at the end that completely throws off the good guy/bad guy dynamic. Maybe not the best example of it but it's the first one that springs to mind because I finished reading it like 2 days ago is in Rock Paper Scissors by Alice Feeney.
The cartoon she ra and the princesses of power has a lot of tropes I like when it comes to villains. It has childhood friends to enemies to lovers and gives backstories to the villains and the hero goes through a lot of internal moral and identity conflicts as she learns more about her past and her powers. It’s up there with avatar the last air bender as one my favorite cartoon shows.
24:55 "You're so cool, Eraserhead"
yes, we would love a vid on female villains!!!!!
Villains are so complex and make the story so compelling! I live for a good villain in a story
My favorite villain (he's not completely a villain but) is from an anime/manga called Bungou Stray Dogs. It's about classic authors with superpowers searching for a magical book that can alter reality. The main character is an orphan kicked out of his orphanage and later he joins a Detective Agency and we watch him as he grows. Most of the characters in the anime/manga have tragic backstories, but the plot deals with abuse, trauma, and morally gray characters very well. The "arch-enemy" (Akutagawa) of the protagonist (Atsushi) is a mafia member, who is, morally, the complete opposite of him and they hate each other's guts at first. They have this "we have to work together to defeat the enemy", and "I'm rooting for you aggressively so you can be better" kind of relationship. They both grew up in environments that made them who they are, so different yet so similar personalities. Though the writing has a bit problems i highly recommend reading the manga for anyone who wants to read about a story about trauma in a world of superpowers
I love these deep dive videos! You rock! 😊
On villain backstory: I think the best example of a villain not needing a backstory is the Joke, particularly in The Dark Knight. The Joker is terrifying because we don't know why he's like this. There is no rhyme or reason, we can't understand him and therefore we can't control him or put him in a box. The thing that makes the Joker terrifying is chaos itself.
I really love your video essays! I like your style of telling, the editing, the topics, I also really like the lenghts of them (even though I think my attention span is getting worse from TikTok 😂)
I loved how you broke down all the villain tropes, as someone who's currently struggling with the dynamic between my mc and the antagonist.
Originally, I made them to be mortal enemies-- he was her one true source of trauma and the one thing she feared down to her very soul, and she was just a little too uncertain to return it when she had the chance. Problem was that, plot twist, I fell in love with my own villain, spiraled into my own mental cave-in as a mere image of him tormented me in my mind, and I broke BOTH of them in the process.
I'm still determined to revive my story, but I feel I need to change their dynamic a lot. I decided that instead of making him some sadistic maniac looking to torture someone who can take the hits for pleasure and fulfillment, he would be not quite an enemy, but a morally-gray people-watcher if you know what I mean. The stage where they're not quite friends, but not quite enemies, and he's pulling the strings behind the scenes to achieve what he ultimately desires in life, rather than directly opposing her to take what he wants on a whim. That way, the entire dynamic would change and the course of the story would flow in a more meaningful direction, giving him many more layers than he originally had. I went to write a sentence of his POV for his motivation and came up with this:
“I dare to take tragedy into my palm, and release it before me until a single tear falls from my eye. My sister, my dear sister, she has the most plentiful heart. I’m left with only a vacancy where I can only hope it once was.”
He wants to feel emotion, guilt, empathy, etc. like other people, and he's willing to do anything to achieve that-- even release a tragedy upon anyone and everyone until he somehow feels sorry for it. In my story, the true main conflict is something on a much bigger scale than any one person. The conflict is in a "dark root" that takes hold of human hearts and locks them up so that they can't feel like other people, and they can't discern between right and wrong. It empties them and leaves them longing for something that seems eternally missing, so they spiral into destructive behavior.
The antagonist in question is particularly problematic in that he has two of these "dark roots", and so not only is he blocked from feeling empathy or really any emotion at all, but he's more inclined to be extremely unpredictable, because even while he consciously has heard of the rules he's meant to follow, he's inclined to do everything and experience all that he's been told not to do. And because of the second one, he is also constantly plagued with a throbbing, aching pain that doesn't go away unless he releases it upon another person. It doesn't make him blameless in the least, but it provides a good reasoning. Perhaps in the end I could give him a redemption arc, but that's only if the protag group found a way to remove the dark roots inside him, and on top of that he'd have to be willing to put his pride aside, beg for forgiveness, and try to fix what he broke over the years. Otherwise, there's no way anyone would forgive him. So I may not go that way, but it's a possibility with the way his mind works, though he's extremely selfish by nature.