Legacy of Kain - A Nietzschean Nightmare
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- Опубліковано 24 чер 2021
- Finally... I have done a video on the Legacy of Kain. What magnificent writing these games have. It's an absolute shame that these games have been lost in time. I hope that this video helps to keep its brilliance alive, even if only in small part. Can a coin land on its edge?
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I just felt compelled to say that I have the best audience in the world. I love you guys!
Ditto man. ❤
Anything for our favorite neighborhood Simpsons kin!
Thank you for existing, Max.
Next shot's for you!
This video was awesome Max, I wish you could do legacy of kain forever
Cheers to you Max
The Elder God didn't create the cycle of birth, death and rebirth. It just attached itself to the wheel of Fate and fed on the souls coming through it like a parasite.
Also, I should add that while the cycle of birth, death and rebirth does occur in the world of Nosgoth, it doesn't occur the way you describe in the video. When people die and are reborn, they do not live the same life again and again. One of the main plot points of the series is that Pillars of Nosgoth have to choose new guardians after death of previous ones and new guardians are completely different people. So Raziel would have to be tortured in the Lake of The Dead for 500 years only once per timeline. Still sucks for him though.
@@NolifeD1 And I had thought that elder god is a a metaphor of deep state/federal reserve pulling strings of government and society... 🤔🤔
@@NolifeD1 Exactly. I came here to post the same thing. This video is based on a serious misunderstanding of LOK lore.
@@NolifeD1 Vampirism (and indeed any immortal being) traps a soul, rendering it unable to be recycled. I see it as the number of souls being finite.
@@waynegoldpig2220 Yeah, I do not know where from Max took that info since he doesn't provide any sources in video itself or its description, but it's mostly incorrect.
"Given the choice, whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire; or to challenge the fates for another throw - a better throw - against one's destiny... what was a king to do? But does one even truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate... and thus defy the tyrannous stars." Kain.
I’m ashamed to say how I have forgotten how amazing these games are.
That was such a great intro.
That was the game that literally taught me English. Needless to say they are all very dear to me, but SR 2 and Defiance have a special place.
Just amazing writing and voice acting, well, as a whole it is really a piece of art.
@@MrXBOCAX I have rewatched the cutscene for both games so many times. The dialogues story and character are so great
Me: "If the world cannot live nor is incapable of living on, then I shall alter Fate to suit my inevitable Destiny. With each rebirth and each incarnation of existence and of design. All acts are bound to my hands and my hands alone. The disillusion of "choice" has been broken, or have I realized the meaning in becoming a God? My humanity is put into question, and without it, what are we but fragments of what is eternal? Or, what once was eternal?... What is Fate, if Destiny drives our choice?"
According to lore in Berserk, Causality does not cycle in a perfect circle, but a spiral. Things may always seem the same, but every push against the current might change things enough to change one's destiny.
Fate as it were, is not predetermined, but witnessed yesterday.
That's a most interesting theory to say the least.👍
On the other hand, insufficient pushback leads to events naturally playing out with an event delayed. The way its presented is that pushing back merely delays the inevitable if the conditions are not sufficiently changed so people could choose a better option than what was presented and our decisions all have consequences. Such as Griffith's decline and the eventual birth of Femto. If Guts stayed instead of leaving, if Griffith didn't try to regain the sense of control he lost by sleeping with the princess Charlotte and being detained/tortured, the other forces at work might have Griffith heading to a battle that ends up being a trap, he could have been kidnapped by nobles uninvolved with the Queen, the world being manipulated by the godhand could have had Guts being poisoned and Griffith might have chosen the sacrifice if he wasn't able to achieve his dream without it or if it meant it would be less costly for the world, being manipulated in other ways to suit his situation.
Thats why Guts is so curious, hes only ever pushed against his fate and despite every shortcoming he had and hardship endured, he survived and thrived. Even Raziel's descent had destroyed him to a degree but like Guts also became stronger for it. Eventually maturing past their initial goals and shifting priorities.
This is almost exactly what Kain tries to do. He attempts to change history with a loophole involving the soul Reaver. Whenever 2 incarnations of the reaver Meet in the same time and space, It creates a temporal paradox where history can theoretically be changed
The fact the series doesn't have a proper ending is kind of beautiful, it puts emphasis on the question and mirrors the uncertainty of our own reality.
Defiance has a proper ending that ends the whole story, it you play it after Blood Omen 2.
This game series is a forgotten masterpiece
It's fucking fantastic! I would like a rerelease of some sort.
@@ZenGaijin The closest we might come to that is a full 3D remake of the original Blood Omen. Apparently, there is a guy working on one and he has been in contact with SquareEnix to ensure his project doesn’t suffer the same fate as Streets of Rage Remake or Another Metroid 2 Remake upon completion.
You can find out more about it here:
facebook.com/BloodOmenResurgence
Forgotten not by us!
Never forgotten.
Only waiting to be rediscovered.
Kain is deified.
to quote a tumblr user on the Dark Souls games "so what if there's no hope? why on earth would that stop me from seeing how far i can get regardless?"
One must dare not to go hollow
don't you dare go hollow
ua-cam.com/video/qRFQ5RGDNrw/v-deo.html
Now you mention Dark Souls, I think FromSoft actually took some inspiration from Legacy of Kain, both fanchises have darkness around them although Dark Souls is more cryptic about its actual story. I see some similarities.
But if there's going to be a remake which is unlikely I sure hope its not in the same vain as Dark Souls.
@@Casketkrusher_ Same.
The reason of Raziel's free will is not because he is a wraith. He obtains free will at the end of Soul Reaver 2 because of the almost fatal paradox and him basically becoming a "living" paradox. Because as said several times, in Nosgoth, only paradoxes can alter the course of time/destiny. For example, Kain can only kill William because they both have the same sword from a different timeline.
I suspect people who believe in "spoilers" would steer well clear of saying anything about the connection between Raziel and the Soul Reaver, since it is one of the major twists that the whole series relies on. Then again, it is possible he just didn't understand.
I mean it isn't just about paradox. The conditions for changing fate in the Legacy of Kain series specifically require that two instances of the same being from different timelines be together in one place, primarily because anything done to the past version would ripple through to the future version and change its ability to in turn change the past version, creating the temporal equivalent of putting a microphone up against a speaker: disruptive feedback... The Soul Reaver IS Raziel's soul, so when Raziel procures the Soul Reaver, he fuses with another copy of himself.... and eventually becomes the sword itself... so his existence is a constant infinite recursion. And therefore from the moment he fuses with his future self, the very concept of fate starts to become unravelled around him...
He's even a triple-stack paradox when he wields the Soul Reaver while having the Wraith Reaver twisted around his arm.
@@SotiCoto yeah this is what I mean by paradox. Though as Kain says, Raziel is really free from fate when he is saved by him at the end of SR2. Raziel's fate was to completely be absorbed by the Reaver then, but the paradox of multiple iterations of his souls at the same time and place allowed Kain to save him and really free Raziel.
@@SotiCoto Raziel means "god is my mystery" and is an archangel in real life lore. He is also known as Gallitsur. He is the angel of all magic and mystery. He is the angel of the 2nd sphere of the sefirot descending from Keter. Fitting that this Raziel is taken in by the reaver, gains free will, and freely gives himself to the reaver when the time was right. This allowing Kain to finally see the "elder god" as well as purifying him into balance. This would allow Kain to be a sane balance guardian as well, and gives way to a future where perhaps the pillars remain, and vampire guardians could be born. Shame we didn't get to see that!
On a side note, I remember back when I was grade 3 that one of my classmates told me about this awesome game with a demon king and a cool guy with wings who gets his wings ripped off, that guy now wanders hell to get revenge
I never found that game
Till I watched this and thought, "holy shit, is this it?"
A most fortunate finding! I'm a bit surprised the wing ripping part was not enough for you to find it earlier
@@hugofontes5708 it was the wing part that made me say "oh god it is it"
@@Ry-bo9hi The series is definitely worth picking up.
Play them, you'd do yourself an injustice by not, but be warned: the story and dialogue will ruin other games for you forever.
@@xenogorwraithblade2538 Didn't ruin Silent Hill
"The first bitter taste of that terrible illusion... hope."
Kain's final words.
Dude.. My dad's gone now, but I remember him being so satisfied with that trippy ass ending. I remember him identifying with Kain and saying that he always knew he wasn't truly evil. And Raziel's ending was rough to watch for us. This series has many emotions wrapped into it and I will never let it be forgotten. I'm happy other people have seen the amazing story this game has to offer. Vae Victus. 💙
nietzsche talks abouts in his book "antichrist" understanding of greek soceity that "hope" is root of all evil.
@@meaningfulmindfulness15 Vae Victus.
@@Mareforyou How many people are sitting around right now, watching the world crumble, with HOPE that somebody will save them?
@@themarsh429 Too many sadly.
If the recent world has taught us nothing, it is time to start saving ourselves. Creating our own hope... like Kain did.
Amy Henning's legacy shall be remembered.
Dennis dyack too.
Legacy of Henning
@@PMauvais Defiance
Don't forget about Dennis Dyack, he is the creator of the LOK series.
I think this series ends with the most beautiful moment in the medium: Raziel's forgiveness of Kain.
"And I am not your enemy- Not your destroyer- I am. as before, your right hand. Your sword!"
Even in his damnation, Raziel has joy! He has cheated a worse face than damnation- the burden of hatred and vengeance. Through this, he gives Kain and Nosgoth a true chance at rebirth and purification. Even in the shackles of the Elder God, there was a chance at a better future and it all hinged on mercy and kindness.
After reading your comment, I think I finally understand what the edge of the coin is. I remember Raziel being unable to directly attack the Elder God because he is a wraith, and Kain is unable to know who the Elder God truly is and who is pulling the strings against him (and the pillars) because he is only in the meterial realm. The changing of fate is instead of these two characters destined to fight eachother, they join, and are able to change the predetermined fate that the Elder God and whoever else have tried to set for them.
Atleast, I think lol. I just finished Soul Reaver 1, 2, and Defiance after only playing Soul Reaver 1 20 years ago or so, so I'm still trying to get my brain around it.
And Kain trying to talk Raziel out of it because he truly thought he could find a better outcome for them both. The sadness in him when Raziel gets absorbed, then his eagerness to take a out 9n the Elder God, it was masterful writing and voice acting. Never been beaten in any other game.
@@erPiccoloTottipretty much. The edge of the coin was freeing Kain from Nupraptor's corruption and Freeing Raziel from his fate as the spirit in the sword. Kain thought he could have both, but then realised Raziel had to make the choice he made to help Kain become what he was fated to be. Kain didn't realise what the Elder God had been doing with Raziel since the start of 9f SR1.
So he didn't see that even though Raziel had free will, he had to be absorbed into the reaver to enable Kain to serve fully as Scion of Balance.
@@RobCrowley85 Raziel being absorbed in the Reaver is also a bit more complex. Raziel IS the Soul of the Reaver, a vampire messiah that was professed to save the world. But everything was upside down, Raziel didn't have angel like wings like Ianos, and more than that, he had no desire to save the world.
Throughout Defiance, Raziel purifies the guardians and in turn, purifies himself to the point where he no longer just accepts his destiny, but embraces it and puts it in motion by possessing Moebius in that final scene, knowing it would prompt Kain the stab him and begin the unification.
I love these games so much.
@@Kairac112 I know all that. I was talking from Kain's point of view, specifically. But you are right that he was prophesied to be the vampire saviour, just not in the way they thought he'd be.
Games i grew up with - Philosophy
Games these days - Gambling
Meanwhile in the 90s... _STRIP POKER_
Go play red desd redemption 2 and the new god of war
There were just as many shit games then as there are today
Money turns everything to shit.
That just sounds like human nostalgia colouring your memories in a warm yellow, don´t be fooled by your own intuition.
A more realistic consideration would be to admit that the games industry is one of the biggest global industries these days and the fastest growing one, meaning there is obviously going to be a lot of copying and mediocre products, but when not blinded, one can also clearly see that there are still great Game releases these days, some of which like the NieR series were even mentioned in the video.
P.S. Guys, if you don´t want swollen comments deconstructing oversimplified common notions that make you look like an idiot, I recommend thinking for a hot minute instead of immortalizing your brain diarrhea on the interwebs on a whim
fun fact: the writer of Legacy of Kain, Amy Hennig went on to write the uncharted games but was kicked out of ND by Neil Druckman
I NEVER KNEW WHO WROTE LoK holy shit that's awesome
@@deadlyninja112 she's really talented
@@rexnihilum7822 VERY talented i just didn't know she did LoK that's sad that its not as popular as it deserves to be cuz its not just ps2 nostalgia it also happens to be a really good game series
That guy is a tool!!!!
Now that makes me more sad. Shes such a phenomenal writer. No room for that in Neil druckmans world 😑
"Brought back from the precipice of Death by the Elder God."
Or perhaps he was merely there when he arrived to his unique resurrection....
Yeah, as the series is based on gnosticism,its possible that the real God of the LOK universe revived him and The Elder God simply took credit
It’s possible that he was never dead at all; merely ruined and eternally unconscious until suddenly awoken by whatever force suddenly wakes us in the day or night.
steeveewuzzheer1992 they flat out refer to Raziel as a paradox, so he could be more of a stand alone ouroboros, where the snake eats its own tail
@@timsievers2067 Yeah, by nature of raziels fate being immutable, he must survive in some fashion long enough for the ravenous soul inside the reaver to consume him. In this sense, no matter what, raziel will survive. Even if it has to go about by some crazy turn of events, history cannot abide raziel to not visit his place of death.
That coin quote is one of my favorites, as well as Janos’ thoughts on the humans. “They fear what they don’t understand and despise what they fear… they’re simply unenlightened and vulnerable to manipulation.”
On Kain’s dilemma though, he knew there was more to his fate than sacrifice or damnation, in fact had he sacrificed himself Nosgoth’s devastation may have been even greater. The pillar’s had another purpose than being the umbilical cord pumping life into Nosgoth, they were also a barrier holding back an ancient enemy, the Hylden. In the ancient battle between the Vampires and the Hylden the vampires struck a final blow to their sworn enemy, in constructing the Pillars the vampires saw the banishment of the Hylden into the demonic realm, and in their fall the Hylden gave the vampires their curse, infertility and an immortality sustained by an insatiable thirst for blood. The Pillars had to be under vampiric vigilance in order to be sustained, however in being freed from the wheel of fate the vampires were now despised by their one and only god who so relished in the purifying cycle of birth death and rebirth. The vampires began committing mass suicide in desperation to be reunited with their god, until Janos Audron was the sole remaining ancient vampire, sustained solely by his obligation to the reaver and his mission in giving guidance to Raziel in the future. However by then the elder god would manipulate Moebius into killing off the rest of the vampires, and the Hylden who had found a way to posses not only corpses but Mortanius himself, and use him and the circle to set their twisted machinations into motion. At that point it was too late, even had Kain sacrificed himself as the sole remaining vampire that would mean the extinction of the vampiric race and in turn the Pillars destruction.
Upon further contemplation Kain might have been ignorant of that fact, that his death would mean the absolute destruction of the pillars, but according Moebius Kain did know about the vampiric prophecies that saw Kain as a messiah of sorts, and Kain knew the pillars rightfully belonged to the vampires, he wanted to fulfill his role as the “Scion of Balance,” to take back the fate stolen from him by the Hylden and the Elder God.
You could say Kain’s gamble was in seeing his fate restored.
That is another pity of the game series never being completed.
The Hylden wasn´t given their proper due, they served briefly as villains in blood omen 2 and they sent demons after Raziel and manipulated the guardians.
But we never really see everything from their perspective.
We know they opposed the Wheel of Fate, there starving the Elder god of souls for the wheel.
So the Elder God ordered his minions, who would become vampires to wage war against The Hyldens, resulting in the Hyldens being banished to a demonic dimension.
From one point of view the Hyldens are the victims here unlawfully imprisoned for standing up against the elder god and the wheel of fate.
So seen in that aspect it would only be right for them to seek to escape their prison.
Well said.
Though there are also allusions to the idea that the "elder god" might in fact be nothing more than a parasite and that the hyldren knew that, as well as the the Vampire priests that created the forges, to repurpose the reaver into a weapon against it.
@@Erikjust I'm confused why the hylden would try to come and slay raziel/kain when they are disrupting that wheel of fate which they oppose?
@@realofficialbrandon I think it is because they oppose the Hyldens as well.
Slaying the scion of balance was needed to gain the heart of darkness to resurrect Janos to gain them the vessel they needed for the mass.
Also it is hinted that the scion of balance can re-imprison them.
Raziel as well is both the Hylden and the Vampire Champion.
He freed the Hylden with his actions, but at the same time through his sacrifice he purified the Reaver and restored the scion of balance ability to see true, thus giving Kain the option to once more bring balance to Nosgoth.
I was just thinking about how awesome the voice acting truly was. Although Raziel was driven by hate, he always seemed to keep his cool…but the first time he lost it, I got chills.
“Damn you Kain! You are not god! This act of genocide is unconscionable!”
I still get goosebumps.
Michael Bell is a gift and a masterclass voice actor
You have to listen to his and Kains Voice on German, it’s breathtaking
It's going to be hard enough doing a proper ending to LOK without Tony Jay and Rene Aubergenois, plus Micheal Bell isn't getting any younger and without him I don't think it'd work at all
The voice acting in that game, I feel, set the bar for everything that followed. IMO it hasn't been topped.
Conscience...? You dare speak to me of conscience? Only when you have felt the full gravity of choice should you dare to question my judgment!
Michael Bell is an incredible actor. He and Simon Templeman together made for some exceptional (verbal) sparring.
Don't forget Tony Jay and Richard Doyle as well.
Yeah, such iconic voice acting, coming from an era when it was first emerging, providing credence to its application. They were so great and tragically makes it very difficult for and sequels or remakes of the games...
legacy of kain is one of the most underrated series ever. Keep the flame living Max, maybe someday more people discover this series, and it will get what deserves.
It's one of my favorite series of all time. I actually wrote a book about the first game, Blood Omen. I want to make a movie about all the rest.
My UA-cam channel is LOK themed. I uploaded the intro videos 9 years ago.
@@karozans subscribed
@@trackerbuckmann1627 Thanks. I don't really upload content though. I'm just a big fan of Silent Hill and LOK.
Theres a port coming out for the Switch soon
Truth
Kain is the best character ever created in any medium. Absolute Shakespearean level, never before seen.
That's not how you spell Guts
@@nisan8544 Guts, although being an absolute inspiring character and a very representation of human will, is not wise nor intelligent as Kain is. Yet one could argue that Guts’ life is but a drop in the ocean of time Kain had navigated in, and if given the immortality of the vampires Guts may become satiated with his basic human needs/will for vengeance, love and so on, thus being able to move further in his interpretation of the world and its mechanics
@@d.a.u.dguts becomes skull knight
No Raziel is.
"History abhors a paradox." - says the historical paradox that is Raziel
"Tumbling, falling, burning with white hot fire, I plunged into the depths of the abyss. Unspeakable pain... relentless agony... time ceased to exist. Only this torture, and a deepening hatred of the hypocrisy that damned me to this hell.
An eternity passed... and my torment receded, bringing me back from the precipice of madness. The descent had destroyed me, yet...
I lived."
the original Joshua Graham
Still to this day whaiting for a game to top that intro. And yet the coin dont fall in that edge.
IMAGINE
Bars
This line and this line alone had me hooked forever on the whole series. All the voice actors were nothing short of perfect for their roles, most of all imho, Tony Jay.
Soul Reaver was trippy af. I was to young to appreciate the gameplay, but i am grateful i had an older brother to play it and expose to just how profound videogames can be in terms of a story telling medium.
Then MGS was the first game I bought on playstation and it was all downhill....
I was too young to grasp the concept of the game.. But I vividly remember the game play..
And how you could input a cheat code at the start of the game and instantly be able to go to the final boss area.
I think that, when you ask "do you seek a third option," you're slightly oversimplifying it. If it's one of the options, then it's really easy to get on a philosophical high horse and say "Yes, I shall seek a third option." But the real question is this: if you know that there is no third option - really truly KNOW it - do you still go on to seek it? And, if yes, what does that mean? Does it mean that you are bravely defiant in the face of absolute knowledge, or that you are a coward who refuses to face reality and engages in wishful thinking?
Depending on the outcome of course. You cannot stop time and history even if you rewrite it or encourage it. If you find out the hardway there's only two probabilities to a coin toss then landing on its side was wishful thinking from a coward. If it does land on it's side eventually you've just rewritten history.
@@jose507 Was it really wishful thinking from a coward, or the ambition of an optimist? There's no end to this discussion. Absolute knowledge and cause & effect may be the way the universe works, but the probability of exceptions may also exist. In reality, there's no such thing as absolute knowledge, the human brain is not flawless, and science changes over time as our understanding of physics expands. Until recently, it was "absolute knowledge" that nothing can move faster than the speed of light, but it's already been proven wrong. "The neutrino beam in question was clocked traveling 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light, and scientists only put the margin of error at 10 nanoseconds."
Imagine the biggest irony though is that you try to make your own destiny only to find out that it was predestined for you to exercise your own right, your own free will and still end up with the same outcome. Fighting destiny only to be playing it’s part and walking along it’s path it’s set for you.
@@jose507 Completely missed the question
It makes me so happy to see the fanbase and community of Legacy of Kain still going strong. As a child who watched my sister play the PS1 titles because I was still too scared at that age, these games and this story has stuck with me since then, and Kain remains one of, if not my favourite fictional characters.
Thank you for making this video.
You made a slight mistake in your interpretation of Kain’s motivations: Kain was unaware of the existence of the Elder God until the very end of Defiance, when Raziel tricked him into running him through, thereby enabling Kain to fulfil his role as the Scion of Balance by revealing the true enemy’s face.
A series that is becoming forgotten with time sadly.
i have never played or heard about it before now, i would like a remake and a conclusion to the series
@@mr.mysteriousyt6118 Play them, all of them, Blood Omen included. Prefer the Dreamcast version of SR1, emulated preferably, for the best graphics and performance, and if you play SR2 and Defiance on PC avoid Steam's version, it needs patches to run properly, so unless you're willing to patch it (not hard exactly) get it on GOG. Blood Omen is on the PS1 only, and it plays like Diablo, to some extent.
@@mr.mysteriousyt6118 you don't want a remake. This game is story driven and the voice performances are simply irreplaceable. Just buy them and play them. It was from an era before woke, PC crap and no remake could ever do it justice.
Not really, I mean sure its nowhere nearly as popular as it used to be due to being absent for nearly 2 decades, but its acquited into the video game hall of fame.
People are still talking about these games years later.
Many such games.. Time splitters, the getaway, driver, conflict desert storm, freedom fighters.. All would make for great remakes
This game series was a masterpiece. I thank you for making a video of it, for the sake of retaining it, as well as pulling the moral conundrum of Soul Reaver out of the proverbial Lake of the Dead. For the time being.
One of the most under-rated game series ever made. it's one of my favourite games!
An amazing story, incredible music and one of the first times I heard such great voice acting.
The LOK series probably led to games that has amazing voice acting. Awesome script and story too.
I plagiarized it so hard to impress my high school friends.
They were awesome, but they really dropped the ball on Turel. They didn't digitally alter the voice at all. They just had the voice actor growl. It didn't work in my opinion.
So many great quotes, and the reason I go on a rant about this series whenever I hear Simon Templemans voice.
'Alas, poor Nupraptor. I knew him well. Well, not really...'
'Vae Victus. Suffering to the conquered. Ironic, since I was now the one suffering.'
'Only once you have felt the full gravity of choice should you dare question my judgment.'
'Let's drop the moral posturing shall we? We both know there is no altruism in this pursuit, your reckless indignation brought you here; I counted on it! There's no shame in it Raziel, revenge is motivation enough; at least it's honest. Hate me, but do it honestly.'
If Dark Souls taught me anything, it's that any hurdle can be overcome with unrelenting persistence.
the endings of both share a lot of common threads.... the Nameless king refused to kindle the fire and so it needed to be hewn down and cast into the bonfire.... Baruch Hashem
also this is the same story as Evangelion, Lilith / Cain line the 7 eyes of Lilith may also relate to Zechariah 3:9. See, the stone I have set in front of you Yahusha! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says Yahuah Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.'
Eyes are explained by commentators to signify intelligence and wisdom. Eyes of the Lord are to be understood of His omniscience. "The ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and He pondereth all his goings" (Proverbs 5:21). "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good" (chap. Proverbs 15:3).
Yahusha then, is the Stone, or Branch mentioned in Isaiah 11 and Zechariah is a branch on the Sepirot tree, #noonblueapples giant's blood... Revelations is about the unveiling of the Bride and Groom, the lamb and the 144,000 who make up the body of Christ, baruch Hashem!
Epiphany is upon ewe...
I adore these games, everything about them is brilliant, I think I learned more philosophy and language from them than I did from the entire length of school. It's sad that the revival of this series was cancelled a few years ago, I hope the higher ups will see sense and bring it back, or at least give us some remasters.
Max, there was a final game Legacy of Kain: Defiance where Kain with Raziel's help and sacrifice manages to defeat the elder God. So the coin did land on its edge in the end.
Well he wasn’t completely defeated, just “burrowed deep”
@@vaevictis_ What exactly do you mean by "burrowed deep?"
(I haven't played the game.)
@@dlbyrd-gasca2730 the Elder God warns it cannot be killed and will return when Kain defeats him, and as he get buried in rubble, Kain tells him “until then, you’d best burrow deep”
@@vaevictis_ OH!
Cool line. 😎👍
@@dlbyrd-gasca2730 Kain and the a lot of the characters have a lot of great lines! The writing and voice acting for these games is great
Holy shit you're covering more LoK, THANK YOU, every person who continues to talk about this amazing series makes sure it stays alive.
X1000! Keep the fight alive sir!
Easily one of the best pieces of vampire fiction ever written.
... Here I go watching the entirety of LoK games, AGAIN
This series was such a gem! By the Elder God's, what would I not give for a HD remake to 'em all???
Okay, so I really, really enjoyed this video. A friend and I watched it together and had a fairly deep conversation as we went through it--we had to pause more than a few times to simply delve deep into various points. It was awesome! There was just one thing...
Please note that this will be a very lengthy comment. Apologies in advance.
Now, the thing I wanted to address is more on the lore side of things, and actually adds more to the deterministic factors you've been discussing throughout the video. I'm a long-time lore fan of the LoK series, and this is definitely not the first time the games have provided me with the chance to delve into the deeper, richer philosophical reasoning they held. Your framing of the games and its meanings, however, has provided an additional wealth to explore.
So... this all ties in with Fate. You said that Vampire "Wraiths, in the mythology of the Legacy of Kain games, are exempt from the Wheel of Fate." This isn't quite accurate. Although the Elder God does say something similar regarding Vampires; "There is no balance. The souls of the dead remain trapped. I cannot spin them in the wheel of fate. They can not complete their destinies."
This would mean that Vampirism, at its base, halts destiny. However, we must account for the Unreliable Narrator--and conniving schemers. Kain still had fate, even as a Vampire. He was fated to die at William the Just's tomb... and that was definitely going to be as a Vampire. In this, the Elder God must be lying. Of course, this merely postpones Kain's death--as he does die later.
There are also Vampire Wraiths in Soul Reaver, Vampires whose souls Raziel does not consume before they fade to the Spectral Realm, and those that are already dead (burnt or in a pool of water), will usually become Vampire Wraiths instead of standard Souls. You can often find them fighting the Sluagh or drifting about through the air, aimlessly.
These may have well already reached their fate--that to wander the Spectral Realm as a parasitic poltergeist.
Might I propose a slightly different framing to the Raziel conundrum? Raziel himself questioned the Elder God: "I wonder, Old One... Did you truly resurrect me, or were you simply there when I awakened from my torment in the Abyss? I suspect you found me merely convenient. Dropped in your lair by Kain, indestructible for some reason."
And this, too, could well be true. Consider the determinism at work. Raziel MUST enter the Reaver. Kain MUST die. These the Time Stream have set as anchored points in history. Even if it could withstand the changes to the stream if Kain killed William the Just (therefore preventing him from becoming the Nemesis and therefore side-stepping the Battle of the Last Stand led by King Ottmar)... as it was mentioned, to truly prevent Raziel from entering the Reaver would introduce a fatal paradox--where the "irritant" would be expelled.
But, as Raziel and Kain are often those very irritants... the Time Stream cannot remove them; there are too many destinies tied up in their existence. So, instead, the Time Stream merely reshuffles. Raziel and Kain NEVER escape their fate. And here's were I hit the meat of my argument.
Raziel was thrown into the Abyss, true. But he was not resurrected by the Elder God; he was unable to fully die. Because his soul CANNOT remain down there, it MUST enter the Reaver... I'd even go so far as to say it's Kain who is fated to be the tool through which Raziel enters the Reaver. If Kain isn't present for the event, I don't think it would stick...
...And so, Raziel became a Wraith--the vaunted "One Unbound Creature." No other wraith has this claim. Even if the Elder God's statement was true, and Vampires cannot be spun in the Wheel of Fate, they are not Unbound... just... locked in place for a time. As Kain still has a fate as the Scion of Balance, I don't take this as totally factual.
So... Raziel is allowed to do the things he does because he has an unmet Fate. That's part one. Part two: Kain MUST die. I'll even put a caveat on this and say that Kain must die by Raziel's hands. Now, Kain has already died once to Marauders sent by Mortanius... but this was before he was capable of meeting his Fate, and not at Raziel's hands. He was impure--as he stated, Nupraptor's madness infected his mind from birth. Secondly, he was already fated to do many other things that he simply COULD NOT stay dead for. So Mortanius' deal was simply a 'scripted' stepping stone... if it hadn't been Mortanius, it would have been something else. He HAD to come back to fulfill his role as Balance Guardian and Scion of Balance.
And so Blood Omen 1 plays out, and he is giving his fateful choice. But even after he chose to rule Nosgoth in its declining state, he still had much more to his Fate. Raziel wasn't alive (having died Wraith Raziel in the epic 'I. Renounce. You.' scene centuries prior). So even if Kain could have died at various points, Fate would not allow it. The best chance for Kain to die at Raziel's hands was during his battle with William the Just (as they both wielded the Soul Reaver, allowing a paradox to be introduced). If Kain died to the Reaver--with Raziel's soul inside of it--then his fate would be completed.
Kain survives this battle, and it changes history to reshuffle... because Kain wasn't dead, yet. In Defiance, we see Raziel rip the Heart of Darkness (taken from Janos Audron centuries ago, later to be returned by Raziel)... And Kain dies... at Raziel's hands... Is this the end of his Fate? Nope.
Kain returns to life to complete his role as the Scion of Balance--without his heart. How? Just like Raziel, Fate was not done with him. The determinism of his role mandates that he do something, heartful or heartless. And we all know Kain gets along just fine as heartless. And Raziel was STILL not in the Reaver. Ergo, these two cannot yet call their destinies complete.
Only one half of the prophecy muraled by the Ancients in their citadel has come to pass: the fiery eyed demon with the flaming blade had killed the Scion. Now the Vampiric Scion, wielding the Soul Reaver, must strike down the fiery eyed demon.
And this is where Raziel accepts his fate, possessing Moebius' corpse and allowing Kain to impale him. Here, he purifies Kain's corruption, and finally embraces his fate to enter the Reaver.
He appears to use his purified wraith-blade to purify Kain. And--as that is his older, twisted soul that once inhabited the Reaver--it could be said that there's almost always two Raziels running around in a paradoxical state (Raziel's soul wielding Raziel's soul...). That's some prime ability to be the "One Unbound Creature."
Where did the wraith-blade version of Raziel go, after it purified Kain? Is it now within Kain? Was it used up, finally dissipating into nothing, now that its final fated act was complete? Either way, I view this as the true fate of Raziel's soul--to purify Kain. And now there's another Raziel soul in the Reaver... perhaps even the same one that will later become the wraith-blade to another Raziel, and thus completing the cycle.
The determinism--where Raziel purifies Kain but also enters the Reaver--is upheld, despite the seeming impossibility of it all, because it would require two Raziel souls. But there's the loop. And maybe Kain will be fated reach his permanent death, now--with the Hylden driven off (events of Blood Omen 2, if we must admit its existence...) and the Elder God sent to "burrow deep."
But they're not gone; both the Sarafan Lord and the Elder God have vowed to return... But Kain is finally in a position to mete out Fate as well as embrace his own, proper Fate without Nupraptor's madness, Moebius' twisting, or the Elder God's hidden hand. He has the purity to see the Elder God, and perhaps other things... Does that mean he will survive? Maybe... maybe not.
Perhaps he's not fated to die, but to institute another Binding, to call forth other Guardians to replace those he had slain long ago. Maybe this will lock away the Hylden and subdue the Elder God. I'd always viewed the Elder God as hijacking the actual Wheel; I don't believe he is the true "Hub of the Wheel." He's eating those souls--growing large upon them, all the while Nosgoth drains of vitality until (in Soul Reaver 1) it has been reduced to a mere husk. Maybe this will restore true Balance, shunting Elder God off the Wheel--from acting like a plug in a tub, and allowing souls to properly be spun back into Nosgoth, and reinvigorating the land...
Maybe... maybe not. I suppose we'll never know. More's the pity.
With all this said, I'll wrap back around to the start of this comment. Despite Kain claiming that Raziel's "remaking" made him the "one unbound creature," I feel this, too, was an unreliable narration. The fact that Raziel is a wraith isn't technically what gives him the ability to do these things so much as the method and vehicle through which he imposes his free will within the deterministic system built by the Time Stream.
Certainly, there would be no wraith-blade without a wraith to become a blade... And certainly, Kain couldn't die by Raziel's hand if he's lying dead in the Abyss or in the Tomb of the Sarafan. But it couldn't be any old wraith, it had to be Raziel... and that... well, that's something of a unique resurrection quality.
Anyhow, I hope you've enjoyed this little discourse. I've thoroughly enjoyed writing it. If you've read this far, thank you for your time and interest. If you haven't... then ... "I. Renounce. You." (bit of LoK humor for ya)
-Lynx / Malkavian Logic
Very well stated. I have some disagreements with this video and you pointed out the major ones far more eloquently than I would have been capable of doing.
For me the main thing I want to push against now is that it is the Elder God who determined Kains fate and is thus it's author. Kain didn't even know of the Elder God until the very end nor was it ever stated the EG has any sort of ability to set fate. Kains fate was set by destiny which was merely the course of history. The EG was as much a slave to history as Kain was.
@@Ryoku1 Oh, hey! Is it time for me to go on another rant?
::rolls up sleeves::
Here we go...
There’s plenty of support for that *particular* thread of thought, actually! One that will take two posts, because they ‘only’ give us 10,000 characters per comment.
Yes, I’ve always treated it as the Time Stream being the true version of ‘Fate.’ And there’s even more to delve into, if you have the time to start looking at the events and the way the various characters perceive them.
As Kain said, “These chambers offer insight for those patient enough to look - in your haste to find me, perhaps you have not gazed deeply enough. Our futures are predestined - Moebius foretold mine a millennium ago. We each play out the parts fate has written for us. We are compelled ineluctably down pre-ordained paths. Free will is an illusion.”
I view this as one of the more pertinent lines, among a few others. Soul Reaver 2’s much better animated review of this disappointed me because it didn’t keep all the lines of this conversation. (And it’s not like they cared about lengthy cutscenes; they had one over nine minutes long...)
But let’s go back to William’s Tomb, shall we? (Poor William...)
It’s this exact scene that gives me a whole BUNCH of thoughts. Kain knows his fate is to die at Raziel’s hands. In the early moments, I believe that he merely hoped to do everything he needed to before he more or less LET that happen. (In the end, he does fight--knowing he has more to do--but loses... and then comes back ANYWAY... but I’m getting ahead of myself.)
In the WTJ Tomb, this snippet of conversation occurs...
Raziel:
“Your fatalism is tiresome, Kain.”
Kain:
“... and profoundly ingrained, Raziel. You must understand, our presence here doesn’t alter history. You and I meet here because we are *compelled* to - we have *always* met here. History is irredeemable.
“Drop a stone into a rushing river - the current simple courses around it and flows on as if the obstruction were never there. You and I are *pebbles*, Raziel, and have even less hope of disrupting the time-stream.
“The continuum of history is simply too strong, too resilient.
“Except... then how do we explain William, here?”
And, very quickly afterward... we have this conversation about the PULL that Raziel feels to kill Kain under the strain of a Paradox making time mutable:
Kain:
“We are hurtling toward our destinies, Raziel. What you feel is the pull of history rushing to meet us.
“This is where history and destiny collide.”
[The Reaver lunges at Kain - he stumbles against William’s sarcophagus and falls to the ground. As Raziel fights to resist the pull of the blade, Kain urges him with earnest intensity.]
Kain:
“If you truly believe in free will, Raziel, *now* is the time to prove it.
“Kill me now, and we both become pawns of history, dragged down the path of an artificial destiny.
“I was ordained to assume the role of Balance Guardian in Nosgoth, while you were destined to be its savior. But the map of my fate was redrawn by Moebius, and so in turn was yours...”
And so... Raziel resists killing Kain--at least for now. I have the notion that, were it not for the paradox occurring, Raziel wouldn’t have even felt the pull. He wouldn’t have even been allowed to consider that pull, it would merely have been a natural action he performed. Furthermore, I would postulate that the conversation would not have occurred the way it had outside of said paradox.
Likely, Raziel would have bitched and complained, Kain would have been sanctimonious, callous, and disparaging, and Raziel--blinded by his rage--would have simply ended Kain.
Note the many times in the script that the Elder God told him to “use his hatred” or give into his rage. Also note the number of times Moebius urges him to remember his hate and anger, if not in those exact terms.
It’s very clear the trap that the Elder God has set to catch these two in a careful loop. But then there’s Ariel, who says, “Those blind with rage are by destiny ensnared.”
Kain, in Blood Omen 1, comments, “I had been betrayed. In my haste, I had not realized it before. That sigil on his forehead. The Oracle of Nosgoth was in fact the Time Streamer Moebius. And I had followed his advice!”
Once again, he mentions “in his haste”... and this time in regards to his own hate, rage, and desire for revenge.
Where is all this leading? Well, I ask you... who--WHAT--was guiding Raziel’s hand in William’s Tomb? I didn’t see any tentacles holding his arm and tugging him to stab Kain with the Reaver. No, he wasn’t being compelled by the Elder God. He was being compelled by the Time Stream. It wasn’t the Elder God, the self-proclaimed engine of Fate, that got reshuffled.
Now, I’ll grant... the Elder God seems to keep all his memories across multiple time lines. He recalls actions that have been shuffled out of existence, he mentions events of futures in times past. Moebius can manipulate time, even going so far as to rewrite it... but I don’t think he can see events that he himself was not a part of changing. Similarly, it’s possible that his memories get rewritten just as Kain’s did at the end of Soul Reaver 2, when he suddenly remembers the Hylden. (I’m supposing that he only remembers them because, before, the trap the Hylden set was never sprung... because Janos remained dead.)
So one might think that the Elder God is just that... a god-like being outside of the flow of time. And this may be true to some extent. But... there’s curious *blind spots* he has which make me doubt this.
He mocks Raziel in the Spectral Realm in Defiance, where he’s holding Raziel captive. And as Raziel begins his harrowing escape, tells him, “Embrace your destiny” and repeatedly claims that Raziel can’t escape. Calls his attempts “clever” and laughs.
But then something very *interesting* occurs.
After all, this an an All-Knowing being, seemingly. Capable of seeing the various time streams as a whole, rather than only remembering one set line of events. This is similar to Kain remembering The Nemesis, despite there never being a Nemesis according to the Time Stream, but far more encompassing... Truly, the Elder God *seems* omniscient.
But when Raziel escapes, his tentacles *surge* up, tactlessly--no longer taking out small chunks in Raziel’s path, but in a panic, pulling down the entire ceiling. And in this moment, he *shouts*... a loss of composure. One word, “NO!” ...and yet that’s telling, isn’t it?
Why didn’t he foresee this? Shouldn’t he have known? If he was the “Prime Mover” as Kain dubbed him, the ultimate puppet master... this shouldn’t have upset him. Either the Elder God knew he would escape and would regain his pawn in another place, at another time--and so there’s nothing to worry about... or Raziel is truly incapable of defying the Elder God and doesn’t escape.
But he does escape. And this is not the only time we see such loss of control... such lack of true foresight. Let’s fast-forward to the final encounter between Raziel, Kain, and the Elder God.
As Raziel kills Moebius fully, he has this conversation:
Elder God:
“You have both traced your paths along the Wheel - this is where the journey ends.”
Raziel:
“You haven’t the means to kill either one of us.”
Elder God:
“Ah, but you can be *stopped.*”
Do you find it strange that his haughty being--who has no problem telling people how wrong, and foolish, and infantile their attempts to defy him are--actually lets this slide? He doesn’t say “Oh, yes, I can”... he tacitly *acknowledges* that Raziel is correct.
Worse, he lets Kain perceive this. Never let this particular shark of a Vampire (no, not like the Rahabim) smell the blood in the water.
He tells Kain that he will bury him. His specific words are these, “You may ponder the futility of your ambitions as you spend a deathless eternity beneath a mountain of rubble. You and your Soul Reaver will go equally mad as the eons pass. The Citadel of the apostates will become your living tomb.”
He basically just told Kain that he can’t kill him. Deathless eternity. For Eons. A *living* tomb. And this is why Kain replied thusly:
Kain:
“Your words are heartening -”
[Kain severs the tentacle.]
Kain:
“For you would not fear us unless we could truly do you harm.”
And the Elder God cries out in pain as the Reaver cuts him. Further more, we hear yet another loss of control--a shout. A *denial*:
“*NO*! You are *nothing*!”
And in the end, Kain does not kill the Elder God... and he becomes so haughty. But in all his boasting, he’s forgotten that he *didn’t* successfully wind up burying Kain and the Reaver with Raziel’s soul in it.
Maybe the Elder God cannot be destroyed as he said... but in parallel, he clearly can’t kill Raziel or Kain, either.
But let’s take all this and roll it back to our main point: Why didn’t the Elder God see this coming? Why couldn’t he kill Kain and Raziel? Why didn’t he foresee the purification of the Reaver, or Kain’s escape from the Elder God’s intended burial under a mountain of rubble?
Omnipresent... maybe. Omniscient? Doubtful. Omnipotent? Provably false.
The Elder God is not synonymous with the Time Stream or Fate. The Time Stream, to me, is the true Fate... and he’s as much of a false fate as he is a false god.
He is, much like Moebius, merely using his vast knowledge to manipulate events.
...more in the next post...
@@Ryoku1 The sequel has arrived! (This is where I launch into my head-canon, which is why--in addition to the character limit--I put this in a separate comment.)
My take? He HATED Vampires because he saw something in the Time Stream... something he experienced and could not escape. I think he hated Fate so much that he wanted to recreate destiny with himself as the victor. And that thing... was the Binding.
The Ancients were duped into worshipping because he knew they would come up against the Hylden... and in making a prison built of the very elements of Nosgoth, it would likewise imprison *him*. And, in a very similar self-fulfilling prophecy to Macbeth... he orchestrated the very faith that caused a holy war between the Hylden and the Ancients.
So the Ancients were cursed... and raised the Pillars of Nosgoth. The Elder God hates the Pillars. The ones in the swamp (perhaps built as a shrine to the actual pillars?) were torn down, his tentacles stilled wrapped around them when Raziel happened across him. Raziel called it a “guilty scene.”
And this is likewise doubled down in theory by the purification, using the same elements and style of bindings as the Pillars themselves. We see previous Pillar Guardians drawn to certain elements in the shrines (which were likewise in the Citadel of the Ancients).
So eventually, in that final shrine where the Reaver is purified, we see the Elder God *desperately* trying to prevent Raziel from cleansing the wraith blade. Technically, cleansing Raziel-the-Elder’s soul, if you think about it being his older self that had gone mad within the blade.
And then Kain is purified, so that he can truly assume his role as Scion of Balance unhindered. This implies something interesting, too. Perhaps the Elder God would have been visible to a pure Scion of Balance. And perhaps only a purified weapon such as the wraith blade cleansed by all the elements of Nosgoth can hurt him.
The Hylden were banished by the Pillars... I’m sure there’s a reason why and how that works. But it was also *clearly* affecting the Elder God. The Pillars were merely founded on the precepts of elemental nature inherent to Nosgoth. If he were truly the *natural* function of Nosgoth, why would the *natural* magics inherent to the world be a threat to him?
Raziel truly hit the nail on the head. The Elder God was a parasite... and I think the Pillars’ binding acted as an antiparasitic on a planetary and mystical level.
...Welp, that’s all from me, for now. Hope this was a fun little delve for everyone trawling the comments. See everyone next rant!
Something to consider: Mortanius figured out that the Hylden was possesing him. Which is why he sacrificed himself to Kain and had Kain set up to die in a resurrect-able way- He likely knew what mobius showed him ahead of time- as he and mobius were around 30 yrs ago around Ariel’s death. He talks of this when Raziel confronts him about the Heart of Darkness.
Also that even Mobius, who was tricked by the Elder God to set into motion everything, didn’t know what the Elder God really was. And realizing he was dubbed at his death, was horrified
@@LynxKlaw One of the biggest and most obvious evidence of everything you said in your posts, but also raises another aspect of the story, is something even Raziel mentions: everyone in his path is absolutely obsessed with demands of Kain's death. The Elder God, Moebius, Ariel, and others, all singing the same song: "kill Kain!"
Everyone was convinced Kain was a massive threat to them, but never for the same reasons. Ariel was driven to madness over centuries of an endless limbo, trapped at the pillars, unable to return to the Wheel because Kain refused to die. EG wanted him dead because he wanted to thrive, without any opposition, to eat souls forever. He knew that Raziel would be powerless to stop him, but he surely must've had some insight that Kain was his only threat (I think his simple hatred of vampires because "their souls remain trapped, I cannot spin them in the Wheel of Fate" was a flimsy excuse to further encourage Raziel to kill Kain and the rest of the vampires, which Moebius had all but extinguished many ages before).
Finally, Moebius served him, but this isn't really why he wanted Kain dead; he already knew his own fate would end by Kain's hands regardless of when and where Raziel killed him, even when Raziel threatened to kill him, including the one and only chance he could kill him while in possession of the Soul Reaver while at William's shrine, Moebius was still convinced that nothing would change the fact that he would only be killed by Kain after he'd already completed one of his main goals, which was to ignite the wholly successful genocidal war on the vampires. By the time Kain killed him, he'd still be the last surviving vampire. And thus, he would refuse his sacrifice, raise the Sarafan priests as vampires, and Raziel would become the perfect tool to be manipulated in pursuit of their real goals.
As for what those real goals were, we may never have a final answer (the Hylden have always come across as a separate party that, as far as I understand it, may as well have been manipulated by the Elder God too. Also fuck BO2's terrible writing). But to get back to my point, the most important people in Nosgoth absolutely wanted Kain gone, and I feel this means they feared him more than anything. After all, consider they were aware that Raziel was the one and only being that truly had free will, while simultaneously being confident that he would either be on their side, as a willing pawn or pliable tool to be used for eternity, as the Time Stream looped forever.
Ultimately it was Kain's knowledge, his words, that put Raziel on the one path that ultimately allowed Kain to assume his role as the Scion of Balance and be finally armed to oppose the Elder God. Kain believed in the "coin landing on its edge" but he couldn't have understood what it truly meant until it actually happened. His main goal was to restore the Pillars, to regain his role as Balance Guardian, without realizing that his true Destiny was to assume a much greater role than that.
However, it's perhaps even more the case that nobody knew this would happen precisely because they couldn't see the Time Stream being radically changed by Raziel's actions that introduced the most colossal of paradoxes, or perhaps, couldn't see far enough. At the very least, everyone was still aware that Kain was the very first vampire primed to take up his rightful place as a Guardian of the Pillars in literal ages, and that alone was the biggest threat to EG, Moebius, who still wished to cling to their respective seats of power, and Ariel (before being joined with the spirits of all previous Balance Guardians), who desperately wished to return to the Wheel because her spirit had been bound to the Pillars for so long. Kain was aware that the Pillars belonged to the vampires, but still he had been unaware of his true Destiny. And seeing as how dramatically the EG reacted at those times you pointed out, perhaps he knew, and that's why he was obsessed with his death.
Also I wanted to point out that the purification of the blade was from the unification of the spirits of all previous Balance Guardians (hence why it's called the Spirit Reaver), not the natural elements of Nosgoth. In other words, it was BALANCE ITSELF that was necessary to even see the Elder God, let alone wound him. He called himself the hub of the Wheel, but was in truth a spooling parasite that was "here and everywhere, now and always." I'd say the EG is the personification of Chaos, if nothing else for the sake of symmetry, but also because he's the root cause of everything wrong with Nosgoth. The Ancient Vampires had worshipped him, and once the Hylden cursed them with immortality (vampirism as we know it), they could not communicate with him anymore, and as they could no longer reproduce, vampire Guardians couldn't be born anymore; they couldn't tolerate this existence, so they started killing themselves in droves, which then shifted the natural order of Nosgoth so that humans would become the Guardians instead.
And my question at this point is this: was this actually part of the Wheel of Fate too? A massive change in balance that disrupted the world to a point the Pillars ended up corrupted seemingly for eternity? I don't think so. I think even the Elder God, as the characters know him, isn't the original god the Ancient Vampires worshipped. How could this be? Why would he have suddenly turned on his worshippers like this? Yes, the Hylden came and cursed the Ancients, but there's no doubt they would've continued worshipping him regardless. In fact, Raziel even jokes about how they may have merely wanted to silence the EG and killed themselves to escape his voice, as if he'd been tormenting them. That's one thing to consider, or maybe it's just a joke, but when I really think about it, I gotta say, something drastic must've changed that coincides with the cursing of the Ancients. think the god the Ancients worshipped was literally the entity we keep referring to as the Wheel of Fate, and the Lovecraftian (possibly Hylden) squid replaced it.
Another thing that occurred to me is the fact that Janos NEVER TALKS ABOUT KAIN. In fact, Janos and Kain are never even in the same time and place, let alone the same scene, as long as you ignore BO2 which shouldn't even be considered anyway (can't be considered canonical or an authentic sequel for various reasons). Janos was seemingly the only character who never acknowledged Kain's role in history or the plot, all he cared about was Raziel. When he considers the possibility he may have "misread the signs" when he realizes Raziel already has the Reaver, but as a wraith blade, this should've been a massive turning point for him. Even when he sees him for the first time, the first thing he says is "My child! What have they done to you?!" and later in the conversation he says "You have been cruelly tested." which seems to imply that he has NO IDEA what exactly happened to Raziel at all, let alone be aware of who did it and why. Janos was likely the most knowledgeable and aware person on all the prophecies and Destiny, yet it was as if Kain didn't exist in his mind at all. I wonder why. After all, Janos should've cared about Kain, even sympathized with him; a man robbed of his humanity and Guardianship, corrupted and turned into a vampire, cursed with the same curse he had suffered longer than any other living character, both being the very last of their kind (all the other Ancient Vampire Guardians died while he remained, sustained by his obligation as the Guardian of the Blood Reaver, and so on. Janos clearly sympathizes with Vorador, so why not Kain? Why was he so blind, so ignorant of Kain, and his Fated role as Scion of Balance? Another thing to consider.
"Call your dogs! They can feast on your corpses!" Ah, I love me some Vorador.
Great cutscene!
@@ericksanchez2496 I wanted the ps1 for ff7 but got LoKBO and nightmare creatures with it. LoK was the one I played the most lol. That opening cutscene was so ahead of its times. This is the game that sets the standard of what competent voice acting could do in aid to the story a few years before what kojima accomplished with MGS
@@jstratton1981 Totally agree! The voice acting was phenomenal. My older brother bought Legacy of Kain and I would watch him play it. Good memories.
A game that will always be dear to my heart. After so many years, Ariel's Lament is still my favourite song in all of games OST's
Without doubt one of the most well-written story arcs in video game history. It's an absolute shame that the story was never finished, and similarly disappointing that the games haven't received a remaster or remake. With a bit of love and effort, they could become the powerhouses they were always destined to be. R.i.p. Tony Jay. The gifts of your trade are missed.
(excluding Blood One 2)
@@MrOrcshaman Yeah, Blood Omen 2 was a different beast entirely. Not even the same writer, and Amy had to work her butt off to try and fix things storywise because of it, from what I've heard.
@@patriksvensson2360 I mean the game wasn't awful in terms of gameplay and setting, but it just wasn't up to standard of the other LOK games, especially the character motivations
@@MrOrcshaman To me, it was actually so off that I couldn't finish it. And I love both Kain as a character and Simon Templeman as a voice actor.
@@patriksvensson2360 yeah, what the hell did they do with Vorador 😬
Oh man the nostalgia I'm so happy to see this game being talked about
Christ I love this series. Formative experiences, each game was. Even Blood Omen 2. It saddens me that these games will be forgotten in time, and that they would not have a chance to survive if they were made today
One of my all-time fav series
Legacy of Cain was mainly influenced by Michael Moorcock's Elric novels. Through out many universes there is the recurring Eternal Champion.
I think Amy Henning was asked specifically about any Elric inspirations and she stated that she didn't know of Elric but its possible inspirations where drawn by other works that where inspired by Elric
Hey Max, just wondering: Have you played "Nehrim - At fate's Edge" and "Enderal - The Shards of Order"? These games also explore this idea of being trapped inside an eternal, recurring circle.
This was one of the all-time greats.
I designed a tattoo sleeve depiction of LoK for my friend, with the main characters, all woven together by the Elder God's tentacles
I always wanted a massive tattoo going up the length of my back of the Blood Reaver, but never had the baIIs to get it.
@@karozans that is a cool idea
I've got the soul reaver itself on my arm. I've always wanted to expand on it. I still might. This series is literally my all time favorite game series above all others.
Been thinking of getting one myself but as I dont draw it's really hard to get something together.
Played this on Ps1 when I was in middle school. Such a gem!
"Will the circle be unbroken."
Very cool video, yellow man.
Fun fact: Kain didn’t know of the elder god until the End of Legacy of Kain: defiance because at the end of the game Kain said “what the hell are you”
nice take max, however i would like to add something, look closely at Kain's face during the intro of soul reaver; you can see the resentment in him the "do i really have to do this" you can see the regret and pain in Kain at what must be done, then the ending of defiance brings it all full circle Kain is truly the must underrated hero in terms of growth from blood omen 1 to defiance
He knew it was coming eventually, he had to play the part of the villain and condemn Raziel but he certainly didn’t have to like it.
One of my favorite series as well. I loved the story telling and that gameplay was amazing. Some the most challenging puzzles that I can remember
Time for this franchise to return. One of the coolest series ever.
No. This is bad idea. No one should touch story so close to perfection. Maby movie, or TV series. But games are perfectly fine for where they ended.
@@pawemackowski451the games could be getting a remaster. I took the questionnaire they put out, which was pretty extensive. I voted for Blood Omen to get one first, because it's where the whole thing started and this, makes most sense.
One of the greatest game series of all time. Amazing characters and storyline and the voice acting is some of the best you'll ever hear.
I dint even know it existed, by how you depict the game and the story it should have been right on my radar, thanks max for letting me know such an amazing story.
The first game was made for PS1, so the graphics aren't that great, but the story starts there. Worth a play if you can get hold of it.
The game play in Soul Reaver 1 has kinda clunky controls and the number of block puzzles kinda sucks, but again the storyline and voice acting makes up for it. The rest of the other games are really good all around and keep to the story.
As someone already said, you can by 4 of them on Steam right now for 1 dollar each.
My youtube channel is LOK themed. You can watch the two intro videos I uploaded 9 years ago.
@@karozans Thank you, i will check it out.
The amount of time it must have been to write this episode could only been over "GREAT SPANS!"
Thanks a million for this video, Max. I deeply appreciate everything you do.
Given the choice, whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire; or to challenge the fates for another throw. I freaking love the legacy of kain series.
"There is no Free Will, we are only Passengers." -Dr. Robert Ford.
f@ck Robert Ford i choose the third option, and if you need a reason why, you will never understand the point of choosing the third option.
"There are no passengers, no drivers. There are only roadside mechanics." -Ford Owners
''there are no Ford, and no Ferrari... Only public transport''
-Me who has no money,2021
"There is no spoon"- bald kid in the Matrix
"Hodor" - Hodor.
Aw man I've been waiting for this video since I first found your channel, and you didn't disappoint
YES!! I LOVE this series! Your videos are always awesome, happy to see this.
great video! been absorbing a lot of information on the game series again recently thankyou for making this!
as soon as I saw the wiki page for causality It came to me, what if this was the route Miura had intended for berserk. Theoretically speaking you could replace Guts with Raziel and Griffith with Kayn. Maybe he intented to tell us some time that Griffith subjected Guts to the pain of the eclipse in order to make sure Guts would play along the role he intended him to have in the game he made with the sole purpose of defeating the god we see in the lost chapters
It's wonderful that they're still people that remember this incredible series and in my opinion this game has the best voice actors in gaming history and on top of that great soundtrack and ominous environments legacy of Kain forever!! ✌😭✌💔💔💔
♾🦉
9:26 we really don't know if Elder God really revived Raziel or not, in an alternate ending to SR 1. ( in which Raziel kills all vampires and Kain and at the end of the game questions Elder God whether it was simply there to meet Raziel when he came back to life.)
ua-cam.com/video/JStgRuot8lU/v-deo.html
30:20
I was cruising through youtube and clicked on this without much thought and was completely drawn into it. Great video looking forward to more.
Raziel The secret of God long been one of my favorite video game protagonists his rivalry with the fatalistic vampire Kain one of the only game series to tackle such difficult and very rarely explored topics such as fatalism existentialism and one's own place in the role of the universe
Truly a thought-provoking series that never should have died out
LETS GOOO IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS
This game is simply a forgotten masterpiece
Purest art itself!
Worth the love
"Can a coin land on its edge?" yeah, magnets!
I'm so happy I got to play the Soul Reaver series as one of my first series since me and my brother shared games.
Aaaaaaaaa dude I've been looking forward to hearing your take on this series for a while. Appreciate your effort and insight, thank you for covering this gem of a series! ❤️
Never heard of Legacy of Kain until you mentioned it in one of your previous videos. It sounds like a really interesting series and I think I want to get into it
I would love to see your take on Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, seeing as it deals with many of the same concepts as these games do. Great stuff as always, dude!
This is a fantastic consept Max, you described it well so we can understand, curse my fate, embrace my fate, or chose your own fate, if I had to chose one it would be chose my own fate, I don't want to be under any higher powers control and to live my life with free will of my own, thank you Max for this awesome video ✌️
Thank you so much for making a video about Legacy of Kain!!
That is my favorite moment of the games and I'm fangirling hard that you made a video inspired by it.
Even if, theoretically, we have no free will, it's an ever useful concept. If one considers all to be predetermined, it's a justification for immoral behaviour (most notably sloth). You are your own caretaker, and never forget that.
I will say: I seek free will, whatever that might mean. If blazing a path many consider to be wrong is what I deem to be right, I must take that path while still treading with the caution of potentially being wrong. If fate is the predicted life course people projected onto me, then my fate has changed many a times over the years at least.
That's why we all must believe in free will, if we are to function as a society.
I would say that if person uses predetermination as an excuse for immoral behavior, it wasn't exactly moral person in the first place. The realization that we are basically just result of genetics and environment made more patient and less angry with people, more understanding.. and able to better deal with our human bullshit.
I like to say we live in sort of a Schrödinger's free will state, where we are free to choose what we do, but the moment we take action it turns out the action is already part of predetermination: I can make a glass fall or not, but whatever I do turns out to be the direction I was predetermined to take my life towards.
@UCc8ukFp8JCgjtOqsWzp9wKA agreed. I've never seen determinism as an excuse to be a piece of shit. Even if free will doesn't exist, you still make choices within God's (or whatever you want to call it) channel. Morality still exists. Happiness and sadness, pain and joy, all exist. You'd have to be a real asshole to think that because things are predetermined that you can just meander around knocking things over and pissing in people's Corn Flakes
Apparently I follow a more nuanced approach to fatalism because I hear this a lot. That people would use fate as justification for being horrible or that if that’s the case then they don’t need to think or stuff along that line. I do believe in fate because even things that seem random are not random. The wind blows a certain way because Hot and Cold air hit in a specific way, that wind might nudge or push something enough to effect something, that in turn might effect a creature and cause and effect continues. Everything is and can be calculated but it’s just so massive that we might never be able to that.
Regardless of that we are not aware of the world, only ourselves and our own current moment. Our thoughts, actions as far as we are concerned exist in a bubble (even if that isn’t true) and so continue as you have and do what comes natural fate is not something for you to worry about. While I believe in it I also don’t care to acknowledge it because it does nothing more than acknowledgement.
Voice acting and writing are superb❤️
I like how Raziel's own inner monologue in SR1's opening is so perfect you paraphrased it for this video
Any video of Legacy of Kain deserved appreciation. Thank you for your hard work, and I genuinely have gratitude to the creator of this video who kept this legacy alive.
One of the many games that deserve a sequel or at least a remake, so that hopefully many people will recognize such a great game!
Thanks for the video, I always get a bit melancholic when I see that game or get reminded of it. And it bothers me so much that we didn't get a last game, such a shame...
Actually, I think determinism is the only way to read the universe. Although decisions are made, even microscopically in the 'collapse' of a wave function, the future and past are all predetermined, and the determinations of the present are not contradictory to those of the whole.
But there is a simple side to this: If everything is determined by your genes in conjunction with experience (the goings-on of the surrounding world), then you still have wiggle room to change your habits for the better within the spectrum that your genes/circumstance provide, even in response to the world's adversity. They are surprisingly flexible, and no matter what you do, it will be permanently engrained on the cause and effect of the future/past.
One has to also get a grip on the relative perpective of life. While in the grand scale of things, all variables are determined, it's also true that we are not all knowing beings. Thus, as acting as ourselves clearly affects the world around us it should not matter what our actions are going to be from the beginning of time: WE, as ourselves must take life seriosly for the relative moment to moment is all we have and all that we do today, right now, will determine what results we will have tomorrow. It might be marked as "destiny", and we won't be able to change it, but it's still us doing it.
@@Artemisarrowzz If eternal recurrence, were rather a spiral - I think that would justify the importance of the 'little freedoms' .. an infinite cycle that in fact grows - or perhaps (?) diminishes , depending on choice .. where there is choice. *If there is a "way out" , maybe it's to create a bigger circle ?
@@bill8383 But the point is that even in such case, if there's a choice to get out, it would be destiny too to find such choice. Something put in there by design. There's no way out of it.
@@Artemisarrowzz yes , but still a 'choice', even though every thing surrounding it is determined >> but if you think of it this way , that your 'one' choice acted to change the path in the entire spiral , one way or the other , or to simply leave it circling (as a circle rather than spiral) unmodified ... And that may be an extremely Important choice >> Ans so once again your 'choices' , in limited supply they may be , have an affect on things -- you have agency. And also your actions , and by that I mean 'choices' are important .. and so you in fact are important .. and not simply a deterministic drone , no? >> and I guess with this model there would be 3! - not simply a black and white choice > comply, rebel , or the coin lands on it's side ** however you wish to designate those in the spiral model, no? .. what do you think? -- this right here could be one of those 'points' .. haha .. which will you choose ?
@@Artemisarrowzz it's like freedom , paradoxically existing within a deterministic framework >> and it fits with another theory about adam and eve , being granted free will via a paradox >> because if you think about it how would you "command" free will if you were God .. that goes against the principle of free will >> so it required the agent of the snake - satan .. to lure eve and thereby adam into 'rebellion' .. knowing nothing of the 'ability' or motive to rebel , it would have never crossed their mind to do such >> but by committing rebellion , they had automatically proved free will by choosing to go against the word of god, the command of god >> By having something fall 'outisde' of God's will , a paradox was created by the name of satan >> by God having split into His self and His opposite , there now exists 'choice' within the deterministic framework and ultimate path of God's will >>> And, so all of this may have ultimately been put there by design , as all things would have to naturally coalesce into the will of God in the final say of things >> It does not mean the 'path' to get there is completely determined .. the 'end' may be determined , but the 'path' is not necessarily .. and some wise men might say , the journey is more important than the destination , which may or may not be actually true >> But you might ask what's the point of life .. and if it's rather a circular argument that 'life' is the point of life (ie the journey) .. then that doesn't sound so bad, right (?) .. I think so. Doesn't mean that the destination isn't more important like many religious would think .. But we are living life Now , so at the moment whilst we can't see outside this spiral-ic treadmill , Life may be the most important thing **** I'm not trying to convert you to either anti-nihilism or religion , but I like sharing my ideas and seeing what feedback others might give
Yes!!! Thanks for making this Video!!! I also think it’s a tragedy that it didn’t/hasn’t received an ending to this series but then again life imitates art and we are left with this idea of never ending, always repeating, and it’s weirdly meta how it all comes around over and over again just like the wheel of fate. Another good example of this is the O.A on Netflix…if u haven’t watched it yet I highly recommend it!!! And the cliffhanger of a canceled series kinda becomes an ending tied to our limited reality
Just came across this channel, brilliant video! Love the LoK series, it was one of my favourites when I was a kid and someday hope to a video about them on my channel. This definitely served as inspiration - thanks!
Always wanted to check this series out.
Didn't know what the hub bub was about without my philosophy googles on
Instant like for the video! I recently replayed the last game of the series after what feels like a decade and it's still as good as I remember. The ambience and aesthetics have a really unique vibe, especially running around in the spectral realm with Raziel :D
But to answer Max' question.. *If* the eternal loop of recurrence is true, I'd seek a third option. What ever that might be.. because I think the only thing that is eternal is (drumroll to make it less sad) death. *But* at the same time I curse fate :/
🥁💀😂
Thank you very much for the Legacy of Kain content, this series deserves much recognition.
Great video! Had me thinking about things I normally look right passed.
I never knew these games had such a beautiful story. Back in the day I played only for the combat. Thank you for this video! Also, the quality of your content is insane...
I was too young to understand how profound they were, but I never forgot them, and am really glad to see them being appreciated ^__^
Wow that's a great quote about the coin landing on its edge, especially in tandem with the "loneliest of lonely" dilemma from Nietzsche...
The only bone I would pick with you is whether or not nietzsche actually thought free will was 'real' or not, or what free will might even mean in a deterministic, pitentially repeating universe.
I think nietzsche would be more likely to say that "free will is real", and that it remains real, anf that it doesn't matter that you'd always make the same decision in the same circumstances (e.g. we are reacting spontaneously, freely, but in a very repeatable, replicatable way...)
That doesn't quite wash with the basics of determinism...but then nietzsche is about as 'eastern' as you can get without literally turning into Buddhism or Daoism...I think we was very happy to build a little 'inexplicability' into his work...
C'est toujours avec le même plaisir que je (re)découvre les vidéos de cette chaîne !
Je suis heureux que tu continue retourner.
Thank you for getting me to put on my thinking cap! And giving me some additional topics to discuss with people who don't quite see that video games can be so amazing.
The coin flip analogy bugs me because it always assumes a flat edge/flat surface. Then again, maybe it just adds symbolic depth by including the duality that a coin flip can’t happen without somewhere to land, and the interaction between the coin and surface can be infinitely novel. I’m probably overthinking this
one of my favorite games. I still own first 3 games of the series . i was obsessed with Kain, I choose free will
I'm always on the hunt for when a channel makes a good Legacy of Kain analytical video. It's always a great gem of a video when I do find one.
This video rocked. Awesome work!
I remember playing these games and watching my brother play them as well when they were first release, the storyline in this series is the stuff of legends. It's a freaking masterpiece, i still remember the cheat code for Blood Omen 2. You can start the game with the red and black armor from BO1, along with the soul reaver sword.
PS2: L1, R1, L2, R2, ○, □, 🔺️.
I never truly understood what Kain says after activating it? Sounds like "Go, she is" but that doesn't really make sense?
I remember watching my older brother play this game when I was a kid. I had no clue what was going on but I remembered it as very interesting and sinister. I'm always amazed about how even at such a young age, we already have a sense of profoundness.
Holy Shit, I've waited for so long for a video on this game, it is teeming with themes to explore. Thanks Max
What a great plot and explanation, so unique! Thanks for the vid
I think about this game often. It had such a profound affect on me at 12.
I can't help but envision that it helped build my intention in life to always have as much context to challenge my own perceptions of realty and people's reality. Ignorance runs deep, and so do ulterior motives.
Amazing game. And the music I hear almost everyday in my head.