We started last year a DUPR 4.0 group with 24 players. Since ai play from 2016 I thought my level is around 4.0 and at the beginning I was rated around 4.1. Then, because of my tennis elbow problems, my play decreased a bit. In addition to that the group had more then 5 3.o players which caused a huge frustration since partnering any of these players led to a loss. My level now is 3.64 or something and will be incredible hard to increase to improve the DUPR level since all wins now are based on 0.009 peaces. So, out of 6 very competitive games I would need to win 5 per each session in the next few months to change something. I also noticed I enjoy less when DUPR is involved and the play is organized with random partners where sometimes it just doesn't depend on you. Anyway, love to play as much as I can because Puckleball keep me fit. Thanks for the great analysis. Hope scoring system will improve in the future.
A couple of yrs ago if your team lost to a higher rated team but the game was close the losing teams Dupr would go up…then it changed …if you win your Dupr goes up ( more if the team you beat is stronger) if you lose your rating goes down ( more if the team is weaker) . The change wasn’t communicated well and if you played with a friend who was weaker and you lost ( as expected) your Dupr went down…so it encouraged you to be very select on your partner resulting in…playing less tournaments
The folks I know who have played a 100 or so matches seem to have a DUPR near to their actual abilities. The problem seems to be when you start out you may, for example, be a 4.5-5 player but enter a 3.5-4.0 tournament, sometimes unaware of your actual 'ability' and this can take the 3.5--4.0 player/s rating down. But as I understand it as, or if, the 4.5-5, player eventually plays more and is ranked at 4.5-5.0 after a few tournaments then the player/s who lost to her/him will find their DUPR increased as the system notes s/he was not 3.5-4 to begin with. It does seem to be the case before someone has played a bunch of tournaments/matches their DUPR can be a lot higher or lower than their actual ability, I'm not sure how this can be remedied?
It's a mistake to discount how your partners performance affects your DUPR. Until a rating system can account for the fact that the other team may hit 85% of the balls to my partner, who can be attributed to giving 8 points to the other team and I only gave up 2 points -- I will consider DUPR to be a farce.
A big issue for all but the professional players is "isolationism", or "imbred ratings". You mentioned it briefly when you talked about Florida vs South Dakota. But just as an example... take 50 pickleball players you know and sort them from skill low to high. Then split those people into 2 groups, the best players in one, and the worst in another, and reset their ratings. Now have them play 1000 games in their group. The worst of the best players will end up around 2.5 level DUPR, and the best players in the worst group will end up around 5.5 DUPR. The problem here is that DUPR has no ability to actually measure ACTUAL skill, it just measures wins/losses. It then performs a rating modification, but again, it cannot tell if someone has an error rate of 50% or 2%. If their opponents are operating at an error rate of 95% (literally just picked up a paddle and whiff almost every ball), then the person with the error rate of 50% (who would be a low 2.0) may, in a crowd of newbies, reach 5.0 DUPR. Obviously the people who actually join tournaments or leagues where matches are entered into DUPR are going to be, by default, better players than someone who just shows up to the park to play once a week and will never play a tournament. But the effect is there. Sure, the next big pro may come out of North Pratte Nebraska, but it's more likely that some of the 5.0s in North Pratte Nebraska would struggle to beat the 3.0s in Orlando Florida, because the North Pratte players are only playing North Pratte players, whereas people from all around the world may consider moving to Orlando for the pickleball scene, so it's attracting high level players from all over North America. Always remember that DUPR cannot assess skill. It just looks at who is beating who, and if the people you play against aren't playing against many different opponents from many different city centers, and even more, many different states, many different countries, then there will be islanding, imbreeding, isolationism inherent in your DUPR rating.
But no on can assss skill except by competition. It's the only thing that counts. Someone might have terrible technique, and big holes in their game, but they have one big weapon and know how to compete, and find a way to win....you never know which is th better team or player until you get out There
Here is my frustation, in a dupr rated match I carried my team to a victory but because my partner has a higher rating they get more points after the victory when I barely get anything. How the heck am I supposed to build my rating then?
Yeah, a guy who I know how the same thing happen. He is a 3.9 and played with a 5.1. They won the tourney. The 5.1 went up way more than his. I guess DUPR thinks the 5.1 carried him. 😂. Meanwhile he got most of the balls
Shouldn’t always rate a team with the same dupr. Many teams have one player that is better than the other. Like in my case. I’ve carried my partners to gold in the last tournament where people were coming up to me saying they couldn’t believe it and we both get the same rating.
One way to fix the rating system is to have a professional rated referee to rate each player’s skill. In order to play dupr sanctioned tournaments the player has to get rated first by a referee or pro. Referee would make some money for their time as well.
There is one point made here about DUPR ratings that I think needs clarification - I think. DUPR is not rating actual "skill level" just the ability to win/score, and I know that sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not. There is a distinction between skill level and overall ability to win/score. You use the example that a 60yo woman with a 4.5 DUPR should "theoretically be the same skill level" as a 22yo male 4.5; but again, DUPR isn't directly measuring skill. A 22yo male might be able to win/score at a certain rate based less on skill-based dynamics and more on athleticism, court coverage, power, etc. A 60yo woman might have similar athleticism, power etc, but more likely wins/scores based on experience and technique, like well-executed drop shots, resets and dinks. So while a match where these two are on opposite sides may score somewhat even, their play will be quite distinct. Most people would recognize that the 60yo woman is "more skilled", even if her team loses to the young hotshot. I see this all the time - especially with young, new players who have strong tennis backgrounds - they barely know anything about real pickleball skills, yet, but they can win games while they learn. LMK if you agree.
There is absolutely a difference between players of different ages. I witnessed a game this past summer where 2 60+ 4.0 level players played against 2 college kids who had started playing that summer. There was one point where the 4.0's were just moving the ball back and forth from one side of the court to another and making the kids sprint after the ball. It reached a point where the 2 kids were on the same side of the court running sprint drills back and forth. In the end, they won the point and ended up winning the game based on sheer athletic ability and speed.
This makes no sense. All that matters in any game is wins or losses. If you can win consistently using horrible tactics and technique you are better than someone else that cannot. Win/Loss=Black/White.
@@MrGbustamante it actually makes a lot of sense, you just essentially said the same thing by acknowledging a difference between winning/losing and technique. The winner is better overall, but it doesn't mean they have equal particular skills. I'm not saying DUPR ratings are wrong, just that the terminology of "skill rating" can be (sometimes) a little misleading.
@@user-jc6pr5el5g Agreed but a rating system cant be perfect. It does a decent job of sorting out play levels. Yeah I hate getting beat by very athletic players with great ball striking skill and no real pickleball "skill" but I guess once I get to 4.0 it wont matter as I should be able to overcome it and their natural skill wont be enough.
I think it needs to be recognised that there are issues with ratings and tournaments need to step up and resolve some of the issues. Pickleball seems almost unique in my experience of having a range of tournaments not just by numerous age bands but also by numerous rating levels for each age. A big tournament is effectively running 50+ individual competitions, which seems crazy but has been almost universally adopted without anyone seemingly trying anything different. Some of the rating issues could be solved by perhaps merging all the entrants into only one or maybe two ability levels, allowing the first few games to sort those participants into cohorts of similar estimated level, then having some bracket games to decide the placings in each cohort. I doubt many people would deliberately lose games at the start to get in a weaker cohort just for the chance to win that section's knockout bracket/medal.
Two summers ago I my partner and I won Gold in a 4.0 tourney. The tourney wasn't aligned with DUPR and most of the teams we beat wouldn't verify our victories on DUPR. That seemed pretty cheap to me. (In fact it was mostly the higher-rated teams which refused.) ______________ Just played a "strict" DUPR league for 4.0 - 4.5. My (different) partner and I are each solid 4.0+ players ... but we didn't mesh well as a team. (We tried *multiple* strategies / tactics. Even when we settled on "reversing" the strong side / weak side (which crazily worked the best for us) we still lost more than we won.) We got hammered in the league and my DUPR is now in the toilet. It's a lot easier/quickler to LOWER your DUPR than it is to INCREASE it. "Oh well...!" Gotta play a lot more DUPR matches.
My son starts his first National Junior Pickleball tournament today. This afternoon there’s a 2 hour evaluation session/clinic. That way they can make sure everyone is in the proper division. All participants are also required to have a DUPR account. Their singles and doubles scores will be entered. The last day they’re going MLP style, which won’t be entered. I love the format. Not sure it would scale to adult tournaments, but at the very least pre-tournament evaluations would be helpful to eliminate sandbagging. I know tournament directors can move people around at their own discretion, but does that ever happen?
Yes, do you know the ALW story? The very first tournament she entered, since she had no history, she was entered at 3.0 (doubles) but the end of the tournament (four matches, I think) she was 4.0.
There's only one way to do it. Everybody self-rates. If you win too much at the level you're playing at, then you get bumped up to the next level. If anyone wants to bump himself up a level, he can for a given tournament.
That's kinda how tennis does it. If you win a lot, you get moved up. There are however 2 frames of thought on this. 1) people are paying money and should get to play where they want. Who wants to pay $100 each and be out in 2 games. And 2) you shouldn't be allowed to sandbag
The DUPR system is pretty good. It just needs a LOT more data. As for UTPR, imo, they suck. I played in one UTPR tournament. They told us to self-rate at about 1 point higher than our DUPR ratings as their system was different. IT was a national qualifier, so sandbagging was everywhere. We entered in the over 65's at 4.5. Dues to not enough teams, they combined several age groups. One team in our group was in their 50s and were DUPR rated at 4.4 and 4.7. They wiped out everyone else in the field, giving up only 14 points in the round robin of 5 games to 15. Also, the tournament was very expensive, costing me $140 for one event. I felt like I got mugged. I'll never play in a ATPR event again, and I definitely think other tournaments like the Nationals should not use their system in any way.
That is a pickleball problem. The organizers know they can gouge TF out of you and you'll still play. I used to play in tennis tournaments with my wife. We paid $50 each. Got a shirt, tournament bag, dinner on the Saturday with a cocktail. So even if you lost 2 straight, you got something. As my one buddy put it...."I paid $100 to enter, didn't even get a granola bar. And was home in time to have breakfast with my family". It will only change when people stop entering these high priced tournaments.... But that won't happen.
It's the best. I don't play in tournaments. So I'm always asked, "what's your rating?". My answer is, "I'm a solid 2.0" 😂...... They roll their eyes because I beat 5.0's
I still don't understand why pickleball tournament registrations do not integrate DUPR or UTPR in.. if the tournament is supposed to be at 3.5 level for example, why is a player with a DUPR of 4.3 even allowed to register? I just don't see this discussed and am confused why. Why should I declare my rating at registration when there is literally a database and algorithm calculating it? Would clean up a MASSIVE portion of this.
If doubles the tournaments I've played in stipulate combined DUPR, say under 7. So a 4.3 can play with a 2.7, to use your example. In theory these two playing against two 3.5 players will have a relatively even match up.
I already posted a comment but wanted to respond to yours. There is a team near me that have a DUPR around 4.7. but they were allowed to enter the golden ticket tournament in 3.5 because it used the UTPR. Do I think they were big losers...yep. I used to play in tennis tournaments. And they clearly state that if you are sandbagging, the tournament director can kick you out.... That's his pickleball should be
There should be a rating for mixed doubles. My male partner and I are doing much better in men's doubles but with my mixed partner I am not doing so well. This gives me a lower DUPR rating than what I actually am compared to my male partner. Because my rating is 3.6 and my male partner is 4.2 our average DUPR is 3.9 we can qualify to play in the 3.5 bracket although we play in the 4.0 men's doubles bracket.
DUPR is excellent. The key is to get as many matches logged as possible. When you plateau at a certain level (where reliability % >60) then you’ll have to play UP with more skilled players, regularly, to see any big change in your rating. I always play with 4.0ish players and that is where my rating has stalled. If I play a 4.75 and beat them my 4.0 will spike to near that level. It’s a good system.
Enjoyed presentation. DUPR has made progress in making more accurate ratings which still has a way😮 to go. I have played in 11 tournaments with only the last 5 being entered into DUPR - in earlier tournaments players would object to games going into DUPR to protect their ratings. If tournament games cannot be entered then what is the point? Anyhow that’s more or less been fixed. The problem arises when players play in narrow milieus - it is easy to gain artificially high ratings. An example, I play most of my play in NJ but😂 travel often so my DUPR rating is compared with others in the local area. An administrator in OKC blocked me from playing 3.5 or above but due to a quirk of fate I was able to play and was better than 11 out of 16 players in competition. The reason is because they play a narrow group of people repeatedly. Nothing is more aggravating to a player than being denied a chance to play - without being given a chance to see where they stand. Hopefully, more and more games will be recorded from all sources to create a national data base which is real. My daughter played soccer and every game was recorded and compared from when she was 11 years old so by the time shed was 16 - a team in NJ could be compared to a Northern California team to a Virginia team, etc. Pickle ball is still relatively new so ….
This video was highly informative and does a great job of taking a complex subject and breaking it down so that it can be understood by all viewers. Outside of 4s or 5s do player ratings really matter??? If you stink you stink not sure I see the point in rating 1-3
I think DUPR are doing their best but seems like some fundamental flaws which I wish they would address. Firstly, they seem to have fundamentally broken the ELO system in a couple of ways in order to keep people happy rather than actually have an accurate rating system. I can see why they would want positive public opinion, but if the cost is making the entire thing less accurate then I'm not convinced it's a good precedent. Secondly, the problem you highlight with forecasting an accurate expected result for a pair with different ratings and penalising a player who might have had very little chance to impact the result is dubious at best. Ideally each pair should have their own rating which is used whenever that pair play together. (I know this would result in the need for many more pairs ratings than individual ratings, and I know that there would be little or no data for most pairs which is the drawback. Perhaps some estimate of a players individual doubles rating could still be calculable from their pairs ratings and then combinable with any prospective partners to prevent sandbagging by just switching partners.)
A first step would be to stop using the word sandbagging and call it what it is - cheating. That might start to address for example, the issue where 4.0 plus rated players enter a tournament at 3-3.5 “because everyone else is doing it”.
I think DUPR would be ok if it consistently linked with Pickleball Brackets. As it stands - at least for me, it found some of the matches I've played but misses some/many and I can't figure out how to "relink it" so it will include all my PB matches.
I feel there is a giant jump between 3.5 and 4.0 based on the self rating descriptions. But I get it… it’s a guideline. When I play DUPR games tho, my ratings drop to about 2.5. So I think it ends up looking like Dunning Kruger effect but it’s guided by the ratings descriptions. So it’s not as if I think I’m better than 2.5, and I’m delusional. I feel it’s more of the quality of self rating descriptions.
I'm not sure how great the UTPR is. There are guys in my area that were able to enter the 3.5 "golden ticket" tournament. Yet they are playing in the 5.0 at Mission Hills PPA.....yep, I think the same as the guy you interviewed....losers who want a 50 cent medal.
I could care less. I play for fun. Will never enter a tournament as i learned a long time ago competing in tournaments like golf, tennis, softball etc. There will always be cheaters. Why bother. If you are not a pro, you suck.
I don't compete in tournament so I don't care about rating and when I travel and play rec games, no one cares about my rating...to make some weaker players to play one more shots, I will just have to play more on the defensive side.
Criticisms of rating systems like DUPR are often founded in ignorance. I see a lot of complaints that have misconceptions behind them, or more often people thinking their abilities are better than they are. Insufficient data is an issue no matter the algorithm. For those who complain that they are really a higher DUPR have a simple solution--play more documented matches.
I find female dupr should be half point lower when comparing to male dupr. So if female dupr is 5.0 and playing VS male she would be 4.5. Senior is harder to asses since age takes affect widely and persons health fitness
We started last year a DUPR 4.0 group with 24 players. Since ai play from 2016 I thought my level is around 4.0 and at the beginning I was rated around 4.1. Then, because of my tennis elbow problems, my play decreased a bit. In addition to that the group had more then 5 3.o players which caused a huge frustration since partnering any of these players led to a loss. My level now is 3.64 or something and will be incredible hard to increase to improve the DUPR level since all wins now are based on 0.009 peaces. So, out of 6 very competitive games I would need to win 5 per each session in the next few months to change something.
I also noticed I enjoy less when DUPR is involved and the play is organized with random partners where sometimes it just doesn't depend on you.
Anyway, love to play as much as I can because Puckleball keep me fit.
Thanks for the great analysis. Hope scoring system will improve in the future.
6:36
I have played with 4.5 women who are worse than 3.5 men of the same age. It's a major problem.
This taught me a lot! I’m excited for what UTPR has to bring to the rating system. Idk if they’ll be better, but they talk a big game
A couple of yrs ago if your team lost to a higher rated team but the game was close the losing teams Dupr would go up…then it changed …if you win your Dupr goes up ( more if the team you beat is stronger) if you lose your rating goes down ( more if the team is weaker) . The change wasn’t communicated well and if you played with a friend who was weaker and you lost ( as expected) your Dupr went down…so it encouraged you to be very select on your partner resulting in…playing less tournaments
The folks I know who have played a 100 or so matches seem to have a DUPR near to their actual abilities. The problem seems to be when you start out you may, for example, be a 4.5-5 player but enter a 3.5-4.0 tournament, sometimes unaware of your actual 'ability' and this can take the 3.5--4.0 player/s rating down. But as I understand it as, or if, the 4.5-5, player eventually plays more and is ranked at 4.5-5.0 after a few tournaments then the player/s who lost to her/him will find their DUPR increased as the system notes s/he was not 3.5-4 to begin with. It does seem to be the case before someone has played a bunch of tournaments/matches their DUPR can be a lot higher or lower than their actual ability, I'm not sure how this can be remedied?
Weird to key up the Dunning-Kruger effect and then say it lead to sandbagging, it leads to the opposite actually
That Is true, I misinterpreted
4.5 age 25 is not the same as 65.
4.5 men is not the same as 4.5 women.
It's a mistake to discount how your partners performance affects your DUPR. Until a rating system can account for the fact that the other team may hit 85% of the balls to my partner, who can be attributed to giving 8 points to the other team and I only gave up 2 points -- I will consider DUPR to be a farce.
Love this!!!
Thanks for using my video in the opening scenes. No more sand bagging for me 😂😂😂
A big issue for all but the professional players is "isolationism", or "imbred ratings". You mentioned it briefly when you talked about Florida vs South Dakota. But just as an example... take 50 pickleball players you know and sort them from skill low to high. Then split those people into 2 groups, the best players in one, and the worst in another, and reset their ratings. Now have them play 1000 games in their group. The worst of the best players will end up around 2.5 level DUPR, and the best players in the worst group will end up around 5.5 DUPR.
The problem here is that DUPR has no ability to actually measure ACTUAL skill, it just measures wins/losses. It then performs a rating modification, but again, it cannot tell if someone has an error rate of 50% or 2%. If their opponents are operating at an error rate of 95% (literally just picked up a paddle and whiff almost every ball), then the person with the error rate of 50% (who would be a low 2.0) may, in a crowd of newbies, reach 5.0 DUPR.
Obviously the people who actually join tournaments or leagues where matches are entered into DUPR are going to be, by default, better players than someone who just shows up to the park to play once a week and will never play a tournament. But the effect is there. Sure, the next big pro may come out of North Pratte Nebraska, but it's more likely that some of the 5.0s in North Pratte Nebraska would struggle to beat the 3.0s in Orlando Florida, because the North Pratte players are only playing North Pratte players, whereas people from all around the world may consider moving to Orlando for the pickleball scene, so it's attracting high level players from all over North America.
Always remember that DUPR cannot assess skill. It just looks at who is beating who, and if the people you play against aren't playing against many different opponents from many different city centers, and even more, many different states, many different countries, then there will be islanding, imbreeding, isolationism inherent in your DUPR rating.
But no on can assss skill except by competition. It's the only thing that counts. Someone might have terrible technique, and big holes in their game, but they have one big weapon and know how to compete, and find a way to win....you never know which is th better team or player until you get out There
Here is my frustation, in a dupr rated match I carried my team to a victory but because my partner has a higher rating they get more points after the victory when I barely get anything. How the heck am I supposed to build my rating then?
Yeah, a guy who I know how the same thing happen. He is a 3.9 and played with a 5.1. They won the tourney. The 5.1 went up way more than his.
I guess DUPR thinks the 5.1 carried him. 😂. Meanwhile he got most of the balls
Shouldn’t always rate a team with the same dupr. Many teams have one player that is better than the other. Like in my case. I’ve carried my partners to gold in the last tournament where people were coming up to me saying they couldn’t believe it and we both get the same rating.
Good news! Based on my experience if you teamed up with me I would lower your rating despite you being imminently capable of carrying weaker players.
One way to fix the rating system is to have a professional rated referee to rate each player’s skill. In order to play dupr sanctioned tournaments the player has to get rated first by a referee or pro. Referee would make some money for their time as well.
That is a great way to sand bag. It is easy to mess up to get a lower rating though your actual skill set is higher.
There is one point made here about DUPR ratings that I think needs clarification - I think. DUPR is not rating actual "skill level" just the ability to win/score, and I know that sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not. There is a distinction between skill level and overall ability to win/score. You use the example that a 60yo woman with a 4.5 DUPR should "theoretically be the same skill level" as a 22yo male 4.5; but again, DUPR isn't directly measuring skill. A 22yo male might be able to win/score at a certain rate based less on skill-based dynamics and more on athleticism, court coverage, power, etc. A 60yo woman might have similar athleticism, power etc, but more likely wins/scores based on experience and technique, like well-executed drop shots, resets and dinks. So while a match where these two are on opposite sides may score somewhat even, their play will be quite distinct. Most people would recognize that the 60yo woman is "more skilled", even if her team loses to the young hotshot. I see this all the time - especially with young, new players who have strong tennis backgrounds - they barely know anything about real pickleball skills, yet, but they can win games while they learn. LMK if you agree.
There is absolutely a difference between players of different ages. I witnessed a game this past summer where 2 60+ 4.0 level players played against 2 college kids who had started playing that summer. There was one point where the 4.0's were just moving the ball back and forth from one side of the court to another and making the kids sprint after the ball. It reached a point where the 2 kids were on the same side of the court running sprint drills back and forth. In the end, they won the point and ended up winning the game based on sheer athletic ability and speed.
This makes no sense. All that matters in any game is wins or losses. If you can win consistently using horrible tactics and technique you are better than someone else that cannot. Win/Loss=Black/White.
@@MrGbustamante it actually makes a lot of sense, you just essentially said the same thing by acknowledging a difference between winning/losing and technique. The winner is better overall, but it doesn't mean they have equal particular skills. I'm not saying DUPR ratings are wrong, just that the terminology of "skill rating" can be (sometimes) a little misleading.
@@user-jc6pr5el5g Agreed but a rating system cant be perfect. It does a decent job of sorting out play levels. Yeah I hate getting beat by very athletic players with great ball striking skill and no real pickleball "skill" but I guess once I get to 4.0 it wont matter as I should be able to overcome it and their natural skill wont be enough.
I only play doubles so I don’t see how it can be that accurate. Where I live everyone just self rates. I do get tired of sandbaggers in tournaments.
I think it needs to be recognised that there are issues with ratings and tournaments need to step up and resolve some of the issues. Pickleball seems almost unique in my experience of having a range of tournaments not just by numerous age bands but also by numerous rating levels for each age. A big tournament is effectively running 50+ individual competitions, which seems crazy but has been almost universally adopted without anyone seemingly trying anything different.
Some of the rating issues could be solved by perhaps merging all the entrants into only one or maybe two ability levels, allowing the first few games to sort those participants into cohorts of similar estimated level, then having some bracket games to decide the placings in each cohort. I doubt many people would deliberately lose games at the start to get in a weaker cohort just for the chance to win that section's knockout bracket/medal.
more weight should be given to tournaments with stronger field. Tournaments should have a strength rating based on field rating total
Two summers ago I my partner and I won Gold in a 4.0 tourney. The tourney wasn't aligned with DUPR and most of the teams we beat wouldn't verify our victories on DUPR. That seemed pretty cheap to me. (In fact it was mostly the higher-rated teams which refused.)
______________
Just played a "strict" DUPR league for 4.0 - 4.5. My (different) partner and I are each solid 4.0+ players ... but we didn't mesh well as a team. (We tried *multiple* strategies / tactics. Even when we settled on "reversing" the strong side / weak side (which crazily worked the best for us) we still lost more than we won.)
We got hammered in the league and my DUPR is now in the toilet. It's a lot easier/quickler to LOWER your DUPR than it is to INCREASE it.
"Oh well...!" Gotta play a lot more DUPR matches.
My son starts his first National Junior Pickleball tournament today. This afternoon there’s a 2 hour evaluation session/clinic. That way they can make sure everyone is in the proper division. All participants are also required to have a DUPR account. Their singles and doubles scores will be entered. The last day they’re going MLP style, which won’t be entered. I love the format. Not sure it would scale to adult tournaments, but at the very least pre-tournament evaluations would be helpful to eliminate sandbagging. I know tournament directors can move people around at their own discretion, but does that ever happen?
Yes, do you know the ALW story? The very first tournament she entered, since she had no history, she was entered at 3.0 (doubles) but the end of the tournament (four matches, I think) she was 4.0.
There's only one way to do it. Everybody self-rates. If you win too much at the level you're playing at, then you get bumped up to the next level. If anyone wants to bump himself up a level, he can for a given tournament.
That's kinda how tennis does it. If you win a lot, you get moved up.
There are however 2 frames of thought on this. 1) people are paying money and should get to play where they want. Who wants to pay $100 each and be out in 2 games. And 2) you shouldn't be allowed to sandbag
The DUPR system is pretty good. It just needs a LOT more data. As for UTPR, imo, they suck. I played in one UTPR tournament. They told us to self-rate at about 1 point higher than our DUPR ratings as their system was different. IT was a national qualifier, so sandbagging was everywhere. We entered in the over 65's at 4.5. Dues to not enough teams, they combined several age groups. One team in our group was in their 50s and were DUPR rated at 4.4 and 4.7. They wiped out everyone else in the field, giving up only 14 points in the round robin of 5 games to 15. Also, the tournament was very expensive, costing me $140 for one event. I felt like I got mugged. I'll never play in a ATPR event again, and I definitely think other tournaments like the Nationals should not use their system in any way.
That is a pickleball problem. The organizers know they can gouge TF out of you and you'll still play.
I used to play in tennis tournaments with my wife. We paid $50 each. Got a shirt, tournament bag, dinner on the Saturday with a cocktail. So even if you lost 2 straight, you got something.
As my one buddy put it...."I paid $100 to enter, didn't even get a granola bar. And was home in time to have breakfast with my family".
It will only change when people stop entering these high priced tournaments.... But that won't happen.
The only thing sharper than this videos outro is this Chanel’s content!
Be unrated and beat rated is so satisfying. Lol!
It's the best. I don't play in tournaments. So I'm always asked, "what's your rating?". My answer is, "I'm a solid 2.0" 😂...... They roll their eyes because I beat 5.0's
I still don't understand why pickleball tournament registrations do not integrate DUPR or UTPR in.. if the tournament is supposed to be at 3.5 level for example, why is a player with a DUPR of 4.3 even allowed to register? I just don't see this discussed and am confused why. Why should I declare my rating at registration when there is literally a database and algorithm calculating it? Would clean up a MASSIVE portion of this.
If doubles the tournaments I've played in stipulate combined DUPR, say under 7. So a 4.3 can play with a 2.7, to use your example. In theory these two playing against two 3.5 players will have a relatively even match up.
I already posted a comment but wanted to respond to yours.
There is a team near me that have a DUPR around 4.7. but they were allowed to enter the golden ticket tournament in 3.5 because it used the UTPR. Do I think they were big losers...yep.
I used to play in tennis tournaments. And they clearly state that if you are sandbagging, the tournament director can kick you out.... That's his pickleball should be
There should be a rating for mixed doubles. My male partner and I are doing much better in men's doubles but with my mixed partner I am not doing so well. This gives me a lower DUPR rating than what I actually am compared to my male partner. Because my rating is 3.6 and my male partner is 4.2 our average DUPR is 3.9 we can qualify to play in the 3.5 bracket although we play in the 4.0 men's doubles bracket.
Agreed. And that is a flaw with DUPR. Your rating goes down because your partner is shit.
DUPR is excellent. The key is to get as many matches logged as possible. When you plateau at a certain level (where reliability % >60) then you’ll have to play UP with more skilled players, regularly, to see any big change in your rating. I always play with 4.0ish players and that is where my rating has stalled. If I play a 4.75 and beat them my 4.0 will spike to near that level. It’s a good system.
You should have one rating that you keep the entire year as in tennis
I'm more of a UTI rating kind of lady :)
Enjoyed presentation. DUPR has made progress in making more accurate ratings which still has a way😮 to go. I have played in 11 tournaments with only the last 5 being entered into DUPR - in earlier tournaments players would object to games going into DUPR to protect their ratings. If tournament games cannot be entered then what is the point? Anyhow that’s more or less been fixed. The problem arises when players play in narrow milieus - it is easy to gain artificially high ratings. An example, I play most of my play in NJ but😂 travel often so my DUPR rating is compared with others in the local area. An administrator in OKC blocked me from playing 3.5 or above but due to a quirk of fate I was able to play and was better than 11 out of 16 players in competition. The reason is because they play a narrow group of people repeatedly.
Nothing is more aggravating to a player than being denied a chance to play - without being given a chance to see where they stand.
Hopefully, more and more games will be recorded from all sources to create a national data base which is real.
My daughter played soccer and every game was recorded and compared from when she was 11 years old so by the time shed was 16 - a team in NJ could be compared to a Northern California team to a Virginia team, etc.
Pickle ball is still relatively new so ….
Banger after Banger. You don't miss Wes
Don't care about ratings, unfortunately without it I will miss out on some games.
This video was highly informative and does a great job of taking a complex subject and breaking it down so that it can be understood by all viewers. Outside of 4s or 5s do player ratings really matter??? If you stink you stink not sure I see the point in rating 1-3
I think DUPR are doing their best but seems like some fundamental flaws which I wish they would address.
Firstly, they seem to have fundamentally broken the ELO system in a couple of ways in order to keep people happy rather than actually have an accurate rating system. I can see why they would want positive public opinion, but if the cost is making the entire thing less accurate then I'm not convinced it's a good precedent.
Secondly, the problem you highlight with forecasting an accurate expected result for a pair with different ratings and penalising a player who might have had very little chance to impact the result is dubious at best. Ideally each pair should have their own rating which is used whenever that pair play together. (I know this would result in the need for many more pairs ratings than individual ratings, and I know that there would be little or no data for most pairs which is the drawback. Perhaps some estimate of a players individual doubles rating could still be calculable from their pairs ratings and then combinable with any prospective partners to prevent sandbagging by just switching partners.)
Awesome video!
Just like Fargo rating in pool
A first step would be to stop using the word sandbagging and call it what it is - cheating. That might start to address for example, the issue where 4.0 plus rated players enter a tournament at 3-3.5 “because everyone else is doing it”.
I think DUPR would be ok if it consistently linked with Pickleball Brackets. As it stands - at least for me, it found some of the matches I've played but misses some/many and I can't figure out how to "relink it" so it will include all my PB matches.
I feel there is a giant jump between 3.5 and 4.0 based on the self rating descriptions. But I get it… it’s a guideline. When I play DUPR games tho, my ratings drop to about 2.5. So I think it ends up looking like Dunning Kruger effect but it’s guided by the ratings descriptions. So it’s not as if I think I’m better than 2.5, and I’m delusional. I feel it’s more of the quality of self rating descriptions.
I'm not sure how great the UTPR is. There are guys in my area that were able to enter the 3.5 "golden ticket" tournament. Yet they are playing in the 5.0 at Mission Hills PPA.....yep, I think the same as the guy you interviewed....losers who want a 50 cent medal.
Very good information they need to rate for age groups and gender
I could care less. I play for fun. Will never enter a tournament as i learned a long time ago competing in tournaments like golf, tennis, softball etc. There will always be cheaters. Why bother. If you are not a pro, you suck.
Nice tips
I don't compete in tournament so I don't care about rating and when I travel and play rec games, no one cares about my rating...to make some weaker players to play one more shots, I will just have to play more on the defensive side.
Yes the avg joes does not care.
Criticisms of rating systems like DUPR are often founded in ignorance. I see a lot of complaints that have misconceptions behind them, or more often people thinking their abilities are better than they are.
Insufficient data is an issue no matter the algorithm. For those who complain that they are really a higher DUPR have a simple solution--play more documented matches.
I think the whole rating system is flawed.
People get 3.5+ and have mixed wins and losses with no consistency in shot placement.
I don’t like the DUPR rating…it’s not accurate at all
Record the matches. Those records get analyzed by AI to account for error rate, speed and accuracy and age.
dont care about the rating system. just play ball and stay healthy.
I find female dupr should be half point lower when comparing to male dupr. So if female dupr is 5.0 and playing VS male she would be 4.5. Senior is harder to asses since age takes affect widely and persons health fitness
What? If a female only plays against males and her dupr is 4.5 than she’s a 4.5?
Pro or amateur, the rating matters or you are a loser
DUPR is so trash
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