Who Poisoned Joffrey In The Books and Was It An Accident?
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- Did you know in the books it isn't clear if Joffrey was the target of his own poisoning or if it was actually supposed to be Tyrion? This short uses evidence from A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, A Dance with Dragons and The Winds of Winter.
A Game of Thrones theory explained, prepare for The Winds of Winter release date with a theory video of George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire book series and something to think about while waiting for HBO's House of the Dragon Season 2.
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I always liked the idea that Littlefinger and Joffery planned to poison Tyrion at his wedding but Joffery forgot and ate the pie himself
Lil Homie was wasted during this too
😂🎉
Dumb ways to die *cue song*
In that case Joffrey didn't forget. He saw Tyrion wasn't eating and basically goaded him into eating his poisened pie, but in a really stupid way.
That's such a stupidly childish and arrogant thing for Joffery to do, I would outright say this is canon. Instead of some grand conspiracy against the throne, Joffery in all of his pride, was undone more by circumstance and his own petulant greed. Very in line with the writing.
It's my favorite part about Joffery's death in the books.
He wasn't the target.
It would be perfect if Tyrion was really the target and Joffrey died due to his own dickishness. Classic Martinesque poetry.
Your username fits
I think this makes the most sense but Olenna had no reason to help Littlefinger kill Tyrion, so how could he possibly know she played with Sansa's hair net? And why even have ser Dontos give her the hairnet in the first place?
I mean it makes sense to make Sansa believe she was the one responsible for the poisoning (whether it be Tyrion or Joffrey), to make her easier to control/manipulate. But if the poison was really in the cream topping on the pie & Olenna wasn't an accomplice, then how does that make any sense?
And again, I think during Tyrion's chapter when it actually went down, it definitely seemed like it was the pigeon pie, not the wine. I think a couple of the guests even mention the pie, before Cersei brings attention to the wine cup. And Littlefinger definitely had a motive, but I just can't make sense of the rest of it 🤷🏼♂️
Joffrey WAS the target: we have confirmation about it in the books, when Olenna speaks to Margery about wanting to protect her from a monster (Littlefinger was previously feeding Olenna misinformation and real facts about Joffrey).
Not sure about the books but didn’t olenna tell margeary that she wouldn’t have let her marry joffrey coz he is a monster? Does that exchange happen or shpuld i just read the books
-Littlefinger wants to poison Tyrion
-Joffrey is poisoned instead
Littlefinger: *Task failed successfully*
Suffering from success.
I suppose I'll call it a win, let's try that again.
Except that for Littlefinger, Joffrey is a great king to have on the throne. He's irrational, impulsive, and weak, and he's easy to manipulate. For someone like Littlefinger, he's an ideal monarch.
@@bradsimpson8724No doubt, which is why if this theory is true, his target wasn’t Joffrey. The point being, however, is that even though Joffrey is the one who dies, Littlefinger can (and I guess does, ultimately ) still make that work in his favor.
As we all know… chaos is a ladder.
@@bradsimpson8724Yeah but the next in line was Tommen, who was all those things but not volatile, mild and even more easily led.
I love this version of his death more. The idea that Joffrey’s death was an accident caused by his own doing. It makes his death so much more sweeter. 😊
It makes no sense if you read the books. Joffrey, not Tyrion, was ALWAYS the intended target.
More sweeter? C'mon, you're a book reader.. You know better.
@@kingofpendragon It makes allot of sense in the books, nobody capable of killing Joffery even had a reason to.
@@Hestaka You sound quite dense. Stannis leeched Edric so that Melisandre could put an end to all of the usurpers. Joffrey was a USURPER, & Melisandre saw his demise in the flames. You people are reaching hard on this one. And you obviously did not READ & COMPREHEND THE BOOKS.
@@kingofpendragonits been proven that mellisandre gets her predictions wrong all the time. Stannis is not azor ahai
“How would you say the king died?”
Choked on pigeon pie. 🙄
“So you would blame the bakers??!”
Or the pigeons, just leave me out of it 😒
God I love Tyrion!!
As much as I liked this dialogue, I am also at a loss to the reasoning of it. Like how can the baker be at fault for someone choking on his pie 😂.
@@RM-wf4mw- I think the idea behind it is that the bakers would have to be responsible for planting the poison in the pie, even if they had done it under duress……there would be evidence of someone tampering with the pie if the poison was placed there after the pie was fully baked. So, the bakers would have to be involved in some way.
The thing is, Tyrion has always been good at sarcasm, him saying it could be the baker's fault is as ridiculous as them saying that Tyrion is at fault because how can it be Tyrion's fault?? Quoting Tyrion, "What kind of an imbecile arms an assassin with his own blade?". @@RM-wf4mw
@@RM-wf4mwsarcasm
@@RM-wf4mwyes, that’s the point! 😅 he’s saying that blaming anyone for someone else choking (if we’re leaving the poison out of it) is ridiculous. Tyrion is saying that it’s Joffery’s fault for chocking and trying to charge him for murder over Joffrey’s death is as preposterous as blaming the bakers that made the pie. Again, this is under the assumption that the poison detail is left out, since the line is “chocked on pigeon pie” not the pie he ate was poisoned.
Preston Jacobs also made this conclusion in his theory videos about the Purple Wedding; that Tyrion was the intended target not Joffrey.
Purple wedding? 🤔
@@user-vn5zs7xw2i It's the fan-term for Joffrey's wedding, it became so popular that even GRRM and the HBO Production crew used it.
Didnt even also theorize it was Cersei who did it?
Alright but in the books, we learn that little finger did it along with olenna
@@richardthomas9497 😮😮😮... I knew about the red wedding, thought someone confused red and purple. 😅😅😅😅
Anyway, thanks for the explanation. 😊😊
Cersei: You killed Joffrey!
Lady Tyrell: No, no, the poison killed him. *I MURDERED HIM!*
Richard TRAITORO Hellsing!
hellsing abridged?
💅💅💅
Girlboss
sighhhhhh
A theory is that Olenna did want to kill Joffrey but hoped Oberyn would be blamed. Oberyn had crippled the older Tyrell son (there are two older brothers in the books) and she wanted revenge for that. Oberyn also hated the Lannister and was known for using poison so he would be the most likely to get blamed
Wouldnt make much sense since in the books, Oberyn cripples Willas Tyrell in a jousting tournament. Jousting is dangerous and everyone knows the risks, even then, Oberyn and Willas kept writing to each other and became good friends.
So no, I doubt that Olena would be as dumb and petty for an accident. Considering her character.
@@theberserker6000 if we assume she in fact did it, she must knew someone would be blamed for it. Is hard to think she could anticipate Tyrion being blamed for it, because as bad as the relationship between him and Cersei was, he was still a Lannister and the boy's uncle (and we don't know to what extend she would be aware of the how much Cersei hated and distrusted him or if Tywin wouldn't not interfere to refute such accusation which would bring such shame to his family) so who better to be blamed than Oberyn, who everyone knew hated the Lannisters and as he had just arrived to King's Landing. Also, Willas migh have forgiven Oberyn, but that doesn't mean Olenna would. Remember also that Dorne and The Reach have been enemies for centuries. In the end, even if she had no desiree for revenge, Oberyn meant nothing to her and she needed a scapegoat and who's better to be seen as a poisoner than the red viper
I don't think Oberyn did anything at the wedding, but I do think he poisoned Tywin
@@theberserker6000sounds like you read the books but did you forget the part where she calls oberyns paramour “the serpents whore” in the garden and they have a argument over it, the tyrell men at arms getting into fights in taverns with dornish soldiers. Joffrey getting taught jokes about Dornish ppl the fact that they seat oberyn and his party as far away from the tyrells as possible without being disrespectful. There is a blood fued between the tyrells and the Dornish going back centuries.
@@akaraniqI do too. Especially since they said his corpse made the sept smell so bad for weeks. And he was having constipation. There’s a poison that makes men drown in their own poisons. I believe that’s what oberyn gave Tywin
It was implied that Olenna poisoned him by taking a small jewel like stone from Sansa’s hair net. However in the book, if I recall correctly, Joffrey didn’t just choke. He writhed in agony, foamed at the mouth, and tried to rip his own throat out in an attempt to breathe. It was actually less brutal in the show than in the book.
In the show he started fucking bleeding from the face, it was obviously poison.
Yes it’s shown that the poison was taken from Sansa hairnet, but that could’ve been done by someone other than Ollena, also, Sansa and Tyrion are married, so if he’s the target then the poison being-on her makes it far easier for whoever applied the poison to reach Tyrion.
There’s a really good series by Preston jacobs on the purple wedding, he makes it quite clear that in the book Ollena probably had no part in the killing, and there’s a lot of evidence for Tyrion being the target
@@anguswaterhouse9255 yes, I never said it wasn’t poison. I’m saying that them saying he merely choked and the show was worse is wrong. It’s much more graphic and severe in the book. Littlefinger asks Sansa if anyone messed with her hair, and Sansa recalls that Olenna did. Littlefinger then explains that he made sure Joffrey died so that Margaery could marry Tommen. GRRM has already said they wanted Joffrey’s death to appear as just a choking but they hadn’t seen the poison work before and didn’t know it would obviously be poison. They later worked that statement into Olenna’s speech to Jamie. I understand there’s other theories and that’s fine. But I’m going to go off what the book and it’s author says
It was Sansa necklace not her hairnet. She never wears a hairnet !
@@genevievechampoux5356 it’s her necklace in the show, in the book it’s her hairnet
Yes. Littlefinger explains to Sansa that her hair net had the poison and that Olenna slight-of-handed it to Joffery's cup. Tyrion finds purple liquid in the cup after he dropped it. In the show Olenna admitted to Margery she killed Joffery to spare her from such a vile marriage.
If I recall from the book Sansa had a unique hair piece with strange orbs inlayed in it and when Joffrey died it was missing pieces plus she was originally meant to be whisked away by the clown knight who was working for little finger and her disappearance is also why Tyrion was blamed as well
Yes she had a hairnet of amethysts, that Dontos tells her to wear on Joffrey's wedding as it will take her home. Olenna also stops her and "fixes" it on her head before the wedding. Sansa later realizes one of the amethysts is missing
@@rubenfajardo7064that to me seems like a massive misdirect tho. For one very simple reason. Why would anyone in Olenna's position be personally involved in the actual assassination? Why take that risk? Makes no sense.
@@biggt0820probably the same reason in the show, Joff was an absolute psycho and Olenna was trying to protect her granddaughter?
@@psychedelicsoul3260olenna is also the least likely suspect. They literally let her leave the city they’re so certain she has nothing to do with jofferys death, so that could also be why she chose to do it. Just least likely to get caught.
@@biggt0820that is not even the problem here.
How tf you kill someone with a garnet of amethyst?
It does look like a Red hering
That poison was called The Strangler and it actually does react that way. Its the same poison that Maester used to try and poison Melisandre. You might be right about it beinf tyrion though, as it was Littlefinger who orchestrated it and her potential escape, though the book does say that Littlefinger was approached to do this but it doesnt sau who. Littlefinger probably wanted Tyrion dead so he could get to sansa but i suspect olenna really did want Joffrey dead.
Or so Littlefinger says. The most prominent lier in the entire series.
@@Birruaze Honestly this entire thing, basically the whole plot of game of thrones, was started by Littlefinger and Lysa. They had Jon Arryn poisoned because they presumed it would incite a rebellion. Little finger sent the assassin after bran as well later and lied about his dagger which got Ned and Cat suspecting the Lannisters.
Littlefinger knew he would get the Vale and he probably planned to marry Sansa and become the head of winterfell and the vale and essentially become the warden of the north.
Yet despite all this scheming and essentially orchestrating the entire plot of game of thrones, he gets himself killed by Arya like a dummy because he tried to set the starks up against one another even after learning Bran was a rolling wifi connection to the past and future. Literally, it started as early as season 5 but the final seasons of got show was basically characters totally flipping and abandoning their established personality traits to do the dumbest shit possible as they speedrun their own deaths.
@@darkerdaemon7794it was Joffrey that sent the assassin to Bran
@@jt5765 It was littlefinger, actually. But he might've very well put it in Joffreys head that he should do it.
@@darkerdaemon7794How the fuck would LF know that Brandon would fall commatose. It needed to have been someone in Winterfell to do it. LF is smart, but not omniscient. Joffrey attempted to murder Bran.
It also makes sense that MULTIPLE people were trying to kill Joffrey.
Or that Little Finger was attempting both. Olena uses the poison to kill Joffrey, while Little finger also plans for Tyrion to die.
Having both of them die would actually probably be the most beneficial for Little Finger, as there would be MASSIVE trust issues going forward for everyone trying to figure it out.
It was Cersei that had Tyrions pie poisoned. The plot Littlefinger and Olenna had for Joffrey was supposed to happen later on in the feast.
Think about this:
Martin confirmed that the poison was used to make it look like he choked. Olena isn't stupid. She wouldn't put the poison in wine which is something you can't choke on.
@@KingSlayer_. And where exactly did he confirm this.
@@Th1sUsernameIsNotTaken I think it's this one: "
@@TemariNaraannaschatz your post says nothing.. lol
@@Th1sUsernameIsNotTaken Oh for fs sake, youtube and it's stupid deletion nonsense. I'll try again:
it's the first thing you find on google if you put in GRRM on the purple wedding, it's from Independent.
"I think the idea with Joffreys death was to make it look like an accident - someone's out celebrating, they haven't incented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught up in his throat it's very serious."
Not to mention how Tyrion was in a prime position to expose Littlefinger for all his financial crimes as Matter of Coin...
Or my personal theory, Stannis the Mannis, had the lord of light give Joff a food alergy, and Joffrey just died of a bad allergic reaction
Cersei did describe to Jamie that it was as though some demonic spirit had him by the throat. But mark my words it's going to be revealed TWOW that Cersei poisoned him by accident trying to poison Tyrion.
Great theory😂😂😂😂😂
@@KingSlayer_.Sounds like the kind of stupid thing she would do
That's such R'hlor thing to do.
Sansa wore a bejewelled hair net . And guess who has been fixing her hair during the wedding ? Olenna . And later Sansa noticed a black amethyst missing from the net .
In the books?
@@derianvandalsen Yes in the books
Doesn't Oleana claim it? Something along the lines of "Did you really expect me to marry my granddaughter to that monster?" I remember little finger asking Sansa if she noticed someone fixing her hair and telling her where the net actually came from but I swear I remember Oleana admitting it somewhere. Currently going through the books again, I'm in Clash of Kings rn.
@@katrinascarlet5637she doesn’t say that in the books but her and little finger definitely planned it together in the books. The real mystery is what was little finger promised by Olenna to help kill Joffrey
he promised he granddaughter would be free ?
You forget that Littlefinger also set up the dwarf minstrel show specifically to cause friction between Tyrion and Joffrey right before the latter's assassination. This strongly implies his intention was exactly what happened: Joffrey is killed and Tyrion is implicated for regicide and sentenced to death over it. The only thing Littlefinger didn't count on was Jaime and Varys foiling the last part of his plan and allowing Tyrion to escape with his life
Jofferys death on the television show was epic. The special effects and acting was outstanding!
Something I noticed on a recent reread of asos is that while olenna did fix Sansa's hair, shortly before this Tyrion notes that shae was arraying Sansa's hair net as well. Additionally, shaes quarters were located very near the kitchens according to Tyrion and so could have easily given the poison amethyst to a cook or serving man to poison the pie
I just can’t help but wonder why Olenna would approach Sansa kinda out of nowhere at her granddaughter’s wedding unless it was to grab the poison. And Shae is her handmaiden so it makes sense she would be their to attend her but to also go back to the kitchen because she’s a servant who would be kept more out of sight🤷♀️
The only reason I don't think olenna did it is because i subscribe to the theory that tyrion was the target (see preston jacobs theory on the poisoning) and olenna had no motive to kill tyrion as well as the fact that it is very risky for her to plant the poison at the wedding @@beautiful.nightmare13
I hadn't thought of that. Shae was not happy with Tyrion's marriage. Though she was more unhappy at being a servant, in the book she was set up in her own mansion until Stannis' seige made Tyrion bring her into the Red Keep.
@@movieloverfan18 if Tywin was already sleeping with her, could she have interpreted a bad joke or line from Tywin about his son and saw an opportunity to please him and be rid of the Imp at the same time ? This short and the comments blew my mind I love it
except that each pie did not have an exact person to go to
That makes a lot of sense. What about the ghost of highhard that saw the girl with snakes as her hair which was suppose to be Sansa with the poison. Maybe George put that to further throw us off
It could be, people take the dreams and phrophecies TOO literal or as 100% truth when a lot of them are heavily symbolic and not obvious. It could have just been been a foretelling of Sansa being told her amethyst hair net was poisonous. Then again I also believe the intent was to poison Joffrey, Tyrion and Tywin from several parties. Basicslly to free Sansa up, protect and strengthen Margery and slowly kill Tywin in revenge for Elia.
What about the Ghost of High Heart’s prophetic dream?
“… I dreamt of a maid at a feast, with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."
My point here is that it seems that Sansa definitely had the poison in her hair…
Possible. But Tyrion saw Shae touch Sansa's hairnet. Sansa doesn't remember or mention it to LF. The poison could be in Sansa's hairnet, but the poisoner or the target weren't ones we thought. The poison was in the hairnet to either implicate Sansa, or blackmail her. If someone at the party realised it was poison in her hair, everybody would think Sansa was aware of it.
The poison came from Sansa hairnet. Sir dontos made sure she wore it. Olenna straightened Sansa’s hairnet at some point during the wedding and when she did took the poison from where it was disguised as an amethyst. Margaery was in no danger of being poisoned since she was most likely in on it. The poison was the same poison Maester Cressen tried to kill Melisandre with but instead ended up killing only himself. It’s called The Strangler I believe. This was all made very clear so I have no idea how this video is trying to claim otherwise
I know right. This channel is lying about things that are very clearly researchable. I think this guys channel should be fucking deleted tbh
he reason olenna wanted tyrion dead was because she wanted to marry sansa to the heir of high garden margaery even said that they were gonna bring her to highgarden to marry her to the hei
tyrion was the target
What would have been funnier is if Joffrey paid someone to kill Tyrion then they posioned his pie without telling Joffeey about the plan 😂
Daaammnn! That makes a lot of sense! I never picked that up the first time I read it
Where can I read the book
Joffrey was definitely the intended target. In the books the Tyrells repeat often that "Margaery drank from it too!". It's a bit weird how often they repeat it, almost like they are afraid of being suspected.
Olenna and Margaery likely planned it together, so she would know when to stop drinking. IIrc the large cup they drink from was also a gift from the Tyrells
Having Sansa involved was likely Littlefinger's idea, he wanted to set up Tyrion as the killer. It was LF's idea to include the show with the dwarfs to further antagonize Tyrion, and he set up Sansa's escape to make it look more suspicious.
Sansa would have less reason to escape if Tyrion had died. When Sansa was hoping to marry a Tyrell she did not want to escape, LF likely wanted her married to Tyrion so she would want to escape. He might even have suggested it to Tywin, he most likely informed Tywin of the Tyrells plan to marry Sansa. It was important for LF to get that done before the purple wedding so Sansa would be motivated to leave
Why did joffery start dying then after he ate the pie? Why involve littlefinger and sansa? that massive wine goblet mace gave them was also getting poured without anyone drinking it. When would olenna or one of her family even put the poison in? tyrion doesnt see anyone reach down for the goblet and drop some poison stone in? Wouldnt it make much more sense that littlefinger wanted to kill tyrion as tyrion knows the truth about the valyrian steel dagger and is married to sansa who littlefinger loves?
@rarestpepe3917
The poison was likely put in during the dwarves jousting, LF arranged that as a distraction.
Tyrion wasn't watching the goblet the whole time, and it's not like it would have been difficult to slip something into it. They could just pretend to move it slightly.
Arranging it the way they did made it harder for anyone to suspect them. LF arranged everything, but made sure to stay far away when it happened, only Dontos could connect him to it. All Olenna had to do was to take the poison from Sansa and put the poison in the goblet at the right time. Getting the poison another way would involve another person that could connect her to it, and it would be hard for her to frame Sansa for it.
LF definitely wanted to kill Tyrion, but he was hoping to kill two birds with one stone by framing Tyrion for it, another reason why he involved Sansa as well, connects Tyrion to it. Involving Sansa also helped isolate her, forcing her to stay hidden, as she was wanted for murder, making her more dependent on him.
LF tried to kill Tyrion before. The Kingsguard who nearly killed Tyrion during Blackwater was likely told to do it by Joffrey, and LF likely gave him the idea, like he gave him the idea to execute Ned.
LF is always careful to stay several steps away when he tries to kill someone, he does not want to go at Tyrion directly. A big part of his strategy is to make sure no one knows what he wants
he reason olenna wanted tyrion dead was because she wanted to marry sansa to the heir of high garden margaery even said that they were gonna bring her to highgarden to marry her to the hei
@@avon8794 he reason olenna wanted tyrion dead was because she wanted to marry sansa to the heir of high garden margaery even said that they were gonna bring her to highgarden to marry her to the hei
@@avon8794 but he did not drink wine for a long time when he started chocking and he started chocking immediately after he ate from the pie
Except the fact that in the books it is stated that a poison capsule was placed in the decorative hair net given to Sansa Stark to wear and it was missing after Joffrey's murder
Joffrey drank from the goblet while he was eating the pie. You can't rule out the wine.
I had this theory too. I believed it was either Littlefinger or Olenna who planned on killing Tyrion so they could wed Sansa off.
Makes no much sense. Olenna wouldnt want Margaery marrying Joffrey anyway. What makes more sense is MARGAERY KNOWING ABOU THE PLAN, and stop drinking so she wouldnt be poisoned too. But actually drinking from it before, so the Tyrells wouldnt look suspicious
That actually makes sense as they were trying to marry her off to Wylas first.
It makes NO SENSE at all. Why’d the Tyrell’s risk provoking the Lannisters OVER SANSA??? Olenna cared about her granddaughter, and didn’t want Joffrey abusing her. Compared to that, she didn’t give a fig about Sansa.
@@kingofpendragongranted, everyone also wants to be warden of the north. With Robb being in the war and eventually dying, and all thw other brothers disappearing or dying, that makes sansa one of the most valuable people in the realm.
People saying "olleana wouldn't let Marge marry evil Joffrey" MFs this is Westeros. Olleana knew of Joffrey's nature and let it happen because they needed Joffrey until Marge gets pregnant and gives birth to a boy, (why marry her to a 8 year-old?, think nerds don't buy what a known lier says), them they can take over. it makes more sense to kill Tyron and blamed on Oberyn, makes Sansa free to married someone else, and someone who both the Tyrells and Lannisters hate gets the blame.
Littlefinger was most likely lying to buy Sansa's trust, made seem as if he killed her hated captor.
Tyron was the target, it was in the pie, not the Wine.
Don't buy the plotlines of the show.
But the true is will never know because GuRM is lazy
My theory is that it was Margery acting on her own. Littlefinger and Olena were planning on murdering Tyrion to get Sansa but Joffery dying stopped them. It's implied that Olena took the poison out of her hair during the feast but she wasn't able to use it.
'Why would Littlefinger tell Sansa that it was him?' is something I'm seeing a lot in these comments. Oh, I don't know, it's not like lying to Sansa and taking the credit for killing the man who massacred her family would make her trust him more.
Another possibility is that olenna didnt use poison but instead a food or substance Joffrey was allergic too but Margarey wasn't
Why Margaery couldnt simply know about the plan and the time to stop drinking from his cup after Olenna Wave or wink?
he reason olenna wanted tyrion dead was because she wanted to marry sansa to the heir of high garden margaery even said that they were gonna bring her to highgarden to marry her to the hei
Very good theory i never thought about it, and it wasn't baelish first attempt to kill Tyrion it's the second, the first one is when mandon moor failed to kill tyrion, that's mostly baelish's doing since mandon is from the vale, and tyrion thought its odd that cersei used mandon to kill him rather than boros and meren so is mostly littlefinger's doing
The thing with this theory is that it gives Olenna nothing to do with the murder plot. if it was in Tyrion's pie, then she probably wasn't involved in the plot at all, since she didn't have access to the pie (it would have to be the unknown LF-agent server dude who put lemon cream on Tyrion's pie, who also hid the poison there.) Its worth noting then when he and Sansa and talking about what happens, LF doesn't volunteer Olenna's identity; he waits for Sansa to mention who touched her hair, then explains the plot... or makes up a story on the spot that matches with what Sansa already knows. (his explanation is definitely at least a little untruthful/scheming as he mentioned the fate of Lollys Stokeworth in the King's Landing riots during his Tyrell negotiations... when the riots happened after he left to negotiate with the Tyrells) So what was the purpose of Olenna touching Sansa's hair? Was it completely innocent? Sansa later notices 1 gemstone missing... so Olenna probably didn't take a 2nd one? Perhaps she was just confirming her fears that it was the Strangler, and going to warn Margaery about it?
Its also kinda poetic justice if Joffrey is killed because of the way he mistreated Sansa, thus making Olenna decide he'd mistreat Margaery as well and decide to kill him. This theory undercuts that completely. And the wine does change color from red to purple over the course of the wedding chapter.
I still like this Tyrion-pie idea, though. It makes a lot more sense than an overly-convoluted LF-to-Dontos-to-Sansa-to-Olenna-to-the-goblet regicide.
Would be illogical. She probably would have preferred that the wedding went smoothly. Margaery got pregnant and had a first son and then off Joffrey. That way the Tyrells would hold the throne with a "legitimate" heir. And the women being great-grandma and mother would rule behind the throne.
With Joffrey dead Margaery could have been passed with regard to Tommen. Also, Tommen in the books is too young. And still under the influence of his mother. So there is no power to gain for years.
@@dgray3771 yeah I agree completely. Joffrey's death makes the whole Tyrell-Lannister regime look weak; Tommen can easily turn into Joffrey 2.0 once Cersei starts focusing on him; though probable, the Margaery-Tommen match is no sure thing; a lot of Margaery's power would derive from having children and raising her kids to be pro-Tyrell, which isn't gonna happen any time soon with Tommen as her husband; its stupid for Olenna to orchestrate an elaborate regicide plot involving LF, Dontos and Sansa, if she has to do the actual poisoning herself.
That said... though its maybe a bit of a risk to try to put an infant on the throne? (before Tommen, I think the youngest person to sit the Iron Throne was 11-year-old Aegon III? and there are precedents for passing over younger candidates in favor of their uncles: 6-year-old Aerea&Rhaella passed over for Jaehaerys I; baby Maegor passed over for Aegon V; Aerys II named Viserys his heir after Rhaegar's death, rather than Rhaegar's son Aegon.) Plus, what's the point of that Sansa I ASoS scene where Sansa confesses that Joffrey is a monster, if not to set up that Olenna's gonna do something about it?
@@Mj_Jetson Olenna could have done something. Poisoned Tyrion so that Sansa was free and could have married one of her grandsons, giving the Tyrells the key to the north.
Red herring, the old woman was just helping sansa.
The whole murder wedding is mess on purpose, LF lies
he reason olenna wanted tyrion dead was because she wanted to marry sansa to the heir of high garden margaery even said that they were gonna bring her to highgarden to marry her to the hei
why was Sansa told the hairnet with the poison was "Justice for your father" if the target was Tyrion instead of Joff?
Yeah, this dude is dull. Joffrey was the threat to Olenna’s Margery, not Tyrion. Olenna heard disturbing tales about Joffrey, not Tyrion. This idiot makes no sense.
A lie, probably
people lie you know
“In the books” Bro loves that sentence
Maybe becuas theres a lot of dumbasses who thinks hes talking about the series
So in the books, Joffrey’s death was a happy little accident
not really, this video is fake, olena killed joffrey in the book too
@@robertorpg2132 he reason olenna wanted tyrion dead was because she wanted to marry sansa to the heir of high garden margaery even said that they were gonna bring her to highgarden to marry her to the hei
@@robertorpg2132 liar negative iq
he reason olenna wanted tyrion dead was because she wanted to marry sansa to the heir of high garden margaery even said that they were gonna bring her to highgarden to marry her to the hei
@@tianlandahl4590 your reasoning is stupid, Tyrion was already married to Sansa in the books and in the show when the purple wedding happened.
It makes sense why she immediately went to accuse Tyrion. Might have known about the plan and didn't want it to be for nothing, and a lot of the time in medieval Europe people were knowingly falsely accused to protect the known assailants or the controversy that came with it.
My personal theory is that 3 people were supposed to be poisoned during the wedding by different parties. Tywin, Tyrion and Joffrey were supposed to be poisoned except something went horribly wrong with one attempt. Tyrion for being a jerk/freeing Sansa up, Joffrey to free and protect Margery and then Tywin as revenge for Elia and her children.
oooo, I believe it's not too later, story wise, when Tywin is found by Tyrion on the toilet. There has been speculation that Tywin was there when he died because he, too, was poisoned
@@sanctuarygaming4984his corpse had an awful smell too, which hints toward being poisoned also
To be honest it wouldve been much more cooler if it was revealed that Tywin was the one who orchastrated the whole thing. He only cares about his family legacy and Joffery definately would tarnish the legacy - he uses that and frames tyrion knowing Cersei would blame him. That way he kills two birds with one stone
It would be a good callback, at least in the show, to the scene where Tywin sends Joffrey to bed. He asks Pycelle to administer 'essence of nightshade' to help Joffrey sleep.
Tywin would have made it so oberyn would be accused for it, otherwise it doesnt make any sense for a character like him to do that, why the fuck would he want to blame tyrion for that
tywin is not that brutal
Holy shit, I didn't know that. That makes Tyrion's whole story so much more depressing. Imagine going to prison for an assassination attempt on yourself.
Dont beloeve anything you hear lmao. This guy is talking out of his ass don't just start believing bullshit after a single fucking short. Whats wrong with people
I always thought that it was not the goblet. In the show, they point out one of the birds dead in the pie. This always made me wonder if the pie was the poison since Joffrey was the only one who ate it. Hearing about it from the books makes me happy to see if wasn’t completely wrong
I love how it’s ambiguous in the books
Preston Jacobs fan?
Of course!
Aren't we all!!
@@videobooks3I've also watched Preston Jacobs theory videos. What sets him apart from other ASOIAF theory channels is that he analyses GRRM's earlier science fiction stories in comparison to fantasy world of Westeros.
I have to read these books, they’ve been collecting dust on my shelf
Dude got charged with his own murder attempt. Oh dear
Sounds like Olenna was only after Joffery, but Little Finger had his own plans for both Joffery *and* Tyrion.
I haven’t read the books, I’ve only watched the show a gazillion times lol But this is fascinating because everything that I thought was true, apparently isn’t. So I’m rewatching it in a different light. As a watcher of the show, Olenna confessed the crime to Jaime. When Jaime tells Cersi this, he says, “I know she did it. If you were Olenna, who would you rather see your granddaughter married to? Joffrey or Tommen?” And that made sense to me and I considered it case closed. But I always felt like there was something more because of the way Tyrion stared at the cup. Confusion? Was this meant for me? Silly I put so much into a cup lol but I pay attention to expressions and try to read detail. The only thing I need to read now is the damn books. 🤦🏼♀️
I’ve heard Olenna wants Tyrion dead so she can marry Sansa to Wilias Tyrell, the heir to Highgarden in the books
Oh great it was even more complicated than I thought😮
I had no idea series and movies were that much different from original books. Thank you for your awesome content
Pretty sure this isn't true.
LF and Oleynna set it up so that Tyrion and Sansa would most likely be accused of the crime. But mainly that tyrion would be accused from LFs POV.
In the books it is done and the scene described much better also, as there is a clear moment where Oleynna interacts with Sansa and her necklace (which held the poison), i.e. this is then inferred later on to be the point in time she took the posion from the necklace. Olyenna then dumps the poison into Jeffrey's food or drink right after tyrion serves him food/drink
except that makes no sense! margarey was drinking from the same wine goblet joffery was drinking from and it was getting knocked around and spilled every which way. why would olenna involve sansa and littlefinger and dontos anyways? what wouldve happened if ser dontos just got drunk and forgot to give or tell sansa about the hair net. what if sansa decided not to wear it? what if littlefinger turned olenna in for regicide? what if god forbid margarey drank from the wine cup while it was poisioned? also joffery only started coughing and choking AFTER he ate the pie. he drinks the wine beforehand and nothing happened. Who brought in the pie? a nameless servant most likely a servant hired by littlefinger as he was organizing the whole thing. Who did this server leave the pie for? Tyrion! Its also makes sense for littlefinger to try and kill tyrion as tyrion knows the truth about the valyrian steel dagger and is married to his one true love of sansa
It isn't true. This guy is talking complete nonsense and stating it like its fact.
he reason olenna wanted tyrion dead was because she wanted to marry sansa to the heir of high garden margaery even said that they were gonna bring her to highgarden to marry her to the hei
olenna would not want sansa to be acussed of it
It was Tywin. He knew he couldn't control him. He knew that he could still control Tommen. Then he'd train him to rule the way he wanted. And that would probably have been the best for the kingdom. He's ruthless, but Tywin is the most effective ruler in Westeros.
He is pragmatic, thats why he has been able to make his domain recover from his father tytos mess, and westeros recover from blackfyre rebellion
@@mermilsTywin wasnt hand during the last Blackfyre rebellion. I like Tywin but I feel he gets alot more credit than what he's due
@@mermilsthe last blackfyre rebellion wasn't even fought in Westeros.
@@adib3011 but who paid it, if it wasnt westeros.
It was in The Stepstones and around Mir, Lys, and Tyrosh
I’ve always said no one would make that kind of play without Tywin knowing something was up and he was real quick to take Cersei s word for it
It’s also possible that Tyrion knew Geoffrey would eat his pie.
Pause
Can you imagine accidentally killing the king 😂
Look up the first prophecy attributed to Nostradamus, two lions and a cage.
That is EXACTLY what you imagined.
Interesting but I think there would be easier ways to kill Tyrion? And there was a huge part in the books where LF spreads rumors about Joffrey at Highgarden.
But the "poison in the cup/cake" plan seems dangerous with Margery sharing the cup/food with Joffrey? A big risk for Olena..?
When i read it i thought Cersei poisoned Tyrion's pie to kill him but instead it killed Joffrey. And later on littlefinger revealed to sansa that he was the one who did that.
Also it was implied that olenna is the one who picked the "jewel" from Sansa's hairnet to posion someone. But i dont see why Oleena wanted to posion Tyrion instead of Joffrey.
You could see it in multiple angles. Which is what i love about GRRM's Work. There might jot be a right answer.
It was quite openly doscussed in the book,though. Sansa missed an "amethyst", and Olenna and Littlefinger conspired to kill Joffrey. We even hear Olenna's reasoning, she was afraid for Margery's life, wanted another king for her. I find it unnecessary to create mysteries where there os none.
This isn't it. See Dontos gave Sansa the hairnet, Olenna took the strangler stone/poison of it & passed it on to Maegary who poisoned her shared wine with Joffrey. Sansa escaped with Dontos when Joffrey was choking & Tyrion was blamed. Tyrells didn't want Maegary married to a monster & knew they could manipulate Tommen (hence her giving him kittens) which feeds off Cersei's paranoia later on. Tyrion was collateral damage. That's all.
It was this way in the TV show, except for the part about Olenna giving the stone to margerie, but in the books it was different
@@sharlenelopez2033 It was exactly as I said it was.
I know you believe that but there's things you are assuming in there.
@@komikbookgeek it's not a belief, it's what happened. Please enlighten me on what I'm assuming, though - & you need to back it up with what actually happened, as I did.
@cityfolkferal it's the "passed it on to Maegary who poisoned her shared wine" you are asumming that happened.
But Littlefinger admited it to Sansa that he and Olena did it in a storm of swords when Sansa escaped the Red Keep after the wedding
It would be very LF of him to twist his motivations to fit the events that happened, regardless of his intentions, to look most powerful to Sansa. Just a possibility. I still think Joffrey was the target, and he expected Tyrion to die for his murder.
Littlefinger is also a liar. We can't *just* take his word.
biggest liar in the series he just wanted to make himself look better before sansa becasue he killed her tormenter
The idea that it was by accident would be hilarious
When I first saw the death in the episode, i thought his mother mistakenly poisoned her own son and her target was Marjorie since the cup looked like hers and Cercie hates her.
Probably still was meant for Joffrey, Little finger gave a whole dialogue in the books about vesting High garden and planting steeds about Joffrey's cruelty in order for Mace Tyrell to hear it and suggesting Loras to be a king's guard in order to protect Maergery, but Olenna kwowing Loras's wild temper would result in either the death or Joffrey and Loras or the death of Loras and as a result kill Joffrey to avoid that. Unless he lied about that to Sansa of course, bit still, in order for hik to gain the iron throne he couldn't have an unpriditable ruler on the throne so I still think Joffrey was the intended target.
I believe it was Tywin. He knew it wasn't Tyrion and wanted him tried anyway.. He wouldn't let murder of his own blood slide with anyone else for the sake of their image.
His motive? Well, Margaery and Olenna weren't the only ones thinking Tommen would be easier to manipulate and control... & Joffrey had already proven himself a sadistic idiot.
I also believe Tywin was doomed to die that night with or without Tyrion's crossbow. He was poisoned, probably by Oberyn & the Martell's to ensure justice for Ellia regardless of the outcome of the trial by combat
Wait....... YOU BLEW MY MIND
First time I see this idea and my reading of the books never conclued to that. That's so neat to find out this exist, literally changing a lot of thing in the serie
Multiple poisoning attempts? Cercei wants to poison tyrion and might poison the pie, littlefinger wants tyrion dead and might either blame him or kill him directly. Hell, even joffrey himself sends a hitman at a cripple at one point. He might have poisoned something and mistook which slice of the pie was poisoned or something.
Everyone stands there poker faced while joffrey chugs poison to wash down poison. Althewhile nobody knows he is allergic to some ingredient.
That's why the "i didn't expect for it to be that horrible" line, the boy probably took enough poison to kill a family of elephants.
Winds of winter and a dream of spring will never be released!
Ok 🤡
@@syndicalistcat3138 call him a clown but he's shooting at %50
Prolly dream
But I think wow will come out
@@distranthegloriouslydeform9259 straight up! No reason why Martin couldn’t put out these books other than he doesn’t want to! Raking in all that cash from the TV shows why publish books
@@BlindMansRevenge2002 The obvious reason is that he can't get the pieces to fit together and wrap up the story. He's still doing a shit-ton of other work, including publishing books, so it's hardly about money in that sense.
I always suspected Tywin, wanting to put Tommen on the throne instead, since Joffery basically prolonged the war, with his psychopathic actions. Getting rid of Tryion to the wall, would be the cherry on top for him.
That's why I deeply love those books. They're so covered with mystery, there's a lot of things we don't know but we can still theorize about it.
I vote Cersei tried to poison Tyrion.
Accidentally killing her own son ate away at her psyche, spiraling her into madness.
he reason olenna wanted tyrion dead was because she wanted to marry sansa to the heir of high garden margaery even said that they were gonna bring her to highgarden to marry her to the hei
It is an interesting idea. Ser Dontes got Sansa out right after the poisoning. And Tyrion's death could also be a distraction. And he did want her free to remarry. However as the marriage is not consummated, I think Littlefinger does not consider it valid even though Tyrion is still alive.
Little finger: Chaos is a ladder.
*Accidentally poisons Joffrey*
Little finger: Whoops.
I always wondered why they didn't suspect littlefinger. It was known that joffrey tortured his women which would have cost him money. And then he subsequently disappeared right afterwards. For a bunch of smart people they were pretty dumb
No, I believe it was the Tyrells. Mace gifts the goblet to Joffrey and supposedly Joffrey “shares” the wine with Margaery, which means she’d have to hold at it at some point to insert the wine. It couldn’t have gone any better for the Tyrells as they are’nt suspected at all since it was said that Margaery shared the cup.
1. Littlefinger wants to poison Tyrion
2. Margeary fed Joffrey of Tyrion's pie
3. Olenna Tyrell took the responsibility
Oh but Olenna spilling the beans to Jaime was heavenly!
There are actually many more reasons tho, Tyrion was given the title of Master of Coin after Ttwin returns after the war, and he started to see that Littlefinger basically screwed everything up, he gave every possible job in Kings Landing to his own minions, made the system of taxation overly complicated in order to laundry money for himself without no one noticing while making any other Future Master of Coin having a living hell to discover how said system works, basically making himself irreplacable
Tyrion was finding the truth quicly about Littlefinger schemes, and how much money and power he was gathering in the realm, Littlefinger HAD to kill him
nice difference but not sure if I would prefer it.. I liked the idea that Joffrey was planned to be the one poisoned cause he was so unbearable and Littlefinger would get Sansa for himself because he expected no one else but her to be blamed so she had to run... the book version is then just like an unlucky coincidence, accidental failure.. however the plan in the books makes more sense tho
This is an example of a life well lived is the best revenge
Honestly im half convinced Littlefingers "chaos is a ladder" is just him bluffing for when things accidentally work out better then expected
This is a fantastic example of how a simple little change can effect a whole story.
Met a dude who had jofferys dead face tattooed on him! I couldn't believe he had jofferys dead face with the blood and everything
In the books it's clearly laid out (if you can pick up context clues) lady olenna gave sansa the hair net that had tears of lys and margery took one gem and dropped it in the wine after she took her drink
That Littlefinger played the game well...but not well enough.
Littlefinger: "Whoops... You know what? I can work with this."
It's the BEST red herring.
It makes SO much sense for Joffrey to be the target, to free Margery from him and rid the throne of him.
And yet...poisoning Tyrion frees Sansa, who the Tyrells were planning to use to claim the North, and it frees king's landing of Tyrion who was casting light on too many scoundrels and was a bit TOO smart for people's liking. He was a threat to Littlefinger's power who we know played a part in Arryn's poisoning and conspired with Olenna to remove Ty for probsbly similar reasons.
I was so hoping that little finger wasn't a piece of shit , but turns out he was😅
While I was watching the scene, I honestly thought he was choking, the camera showing the cake several times.
But the idea he was so stupid to kill himself to a plan he made is amazing
That thumbnail image looks amazing btw, where did u get it?
It’s at least nice of little finger to hire jousting dwarves so Tyrions last moments would be a happy day at his beloved nephew’s wedding.
Describing Left Eye as the Harley Quinn of the group is probably the BEST comparison. She don’t look like she can do much but you walking away with a nub and limp.👏🏾👏🏾
Would have been funny if he was just allergic to something in the pie 🤣🤣
littlefinger even said whilst spiriting Sansa away that he often makes moves that even seem counterproductive to confuse his enemies. could be a way of twisting his failure to murder tyrion into "part of the plan all along"
This is a much cooler idea than what happened in the show.
What if Cersei put the poison in Tyrions pie hence her screaming "you killed him"
Plot twist: Joffrey had a severe peanut allergy that was unknown to their understanding of science at the time, hence the speculation that it was an elaborate murder plot.
Tyrion was also uncovering little fingers plot to put the crown in severe debt
My favorite theory is that there are at least three parties unaware of each other trying to murder Joffrey:
-Olenna and possibly Littlefinger
-Tywin himself
-Oberyn
Didn't the books say that one of the stones in the hairnet gifted to Sansa by Lady Tyrell was actually crystallized poison? (In the movie, the gift was a necklace). Lady Tyrell touched the hairnet and removed the stone, then went over to speak to Margery, and covertly slipped the poison into Jeoffry's goblet. I swear the books left us in no doubt as to the poisoner. The television series is where it came in question.
I love the number of theories bouncing around about Joffrey's murder. It's like real life because an assassination makes everyone question motives and who could be responsible.
imagine accidentally killing the king 💀
Damn, I never thought of that. Good work.