I have to thank Father Heers for his book "The New Ecclesiology of Vatican II". I was a traditional Catholic opposed to the liturgical and theological innovations that originated in the great confusion of the Second Vatican "conciliabulo". To my Orthodox brethren, who have a similar background to mine, I would recommend warmly the reading of this remarkable book that can help us a lot in strengthening our Orthodox Faith.
Thank you, Father Peter, for this excellent exposition of the inversion tactic of deceit first introduced and established in the prefiguring spirit of anti-Christ, in Genesis 3:4&5... The quotation from the questioner is a flawed real-life argument for the claim that the Church can be represented in fullness & incompleteness at the same time...
Hi Fr. Heers, would you ever consider debating or even having a long form discussion with a Trent Horn or Jimmy Akin? I would really love to see this and maybe it would help to expose some Catholics to the fullness of the Truth in Christ that is Orthodoxy.
Not sure but I went to look for the page that Fr. Peter pulled up and it seems that GOARCH took down that blasphemous nonsense. Glad someone brought it up and hopefully we can keep the Hierarch in check and remember to please pray for them to do the right things.
If you have a Pope and Magisterium that issues these documents, why do you need a fallible layman to interpret what the infallible Pope says? The Church Fathers would actually agree with Fr.Peter, they would never teach anything blasphemous or heretical like the Latin saint John Bosco who claims the Pope is equal to God.
@@ΆγιοςΙερώνυμος-χ2γ Do you know what papal infallibility is??? Describe it. Plus if papal infallibility actually meant what many think that the pope is always right then why does he go to confession and receive sacraments??? Plus provide sources of St John Bosco saying the Pope is equal to God???
I think having fits over the GOARCH statement that clearly apes RC teaching isn’t necessary. I think I understand it but having read the VII docs ages ago, I find it in accord with his the OC applies its teaching in grace. We are not always capable of receiving the grave God has for us. It’s not - can’t be - all or nothing. Grace formed the Scripture. Anyone who interacts with Scripture can receive grace, more or less. VII simply teaches that separated churches and communities, by virtue of the Scripture, baptism and other pieties participate still to a lesser extent in the life of the Church. It’s like when I go to Confession it’s no doubt imperfect. But it’s not nothing. As I progress, hopefully my confessions & repentance approach perfection. Obviously, the more perfect my heart, the more grace I can receive. The grace doesn’t change; God in His just mercy provides what I can handle and honors my openness/closedness to Him. In the Liturgy we pray that the Eucharist be unto us “according to each one’s individual needs.” Recognizing that grace is imparted to all via the common gifts of life & sunshine, etc. means, too, that those who read & apply the scripture are not left completely bereft. It’s a gift through the Church to all. It’s dangerous, yes, and many are deluded. But even in the Church many remain ignorant or deluded. Nothing is automatic. Nothing is all or nothing. Acknowledging that other folks who confess Christ and seek salvation in Him aren’t completely separated from Him or bereft of grace and are in some manner within the orbit of the Church is hardly new or modernist.
To RCs, grace is created. Anyway, from the Orthodox side one either is in the Church or is not, there are no degrees of communion such as Vatican II says for the RCC. One is either in communion, or not. This is why all Orthodox Christians are Chrismated and communed. There's no tiers to "membership" like being only baptized in the Church (entry level member), or being baptized and having first communion (partial member), or being baptized and communed and confirmed (full member). All Orthodox Christians are the latter. We also don't have "imperfect communion" of those who are in heterodox communities.
@@LadyMaria clearly didn’t respond to what I wrote. And nobody says anything about degrees of membership. But it’s clear in scripture, praxis, & sense that there are degrees of proximity to the Truth. Even you are moving toward the Center, and I assume confess when you’ve moved away.
@@traceyedson9652 I clearly did respond to the jist of it, omitting response to things I didn't find needful to reply to. **I** said something about degrees of membership, which is what the RCC teaches, and is pertinent to your comment, which I did read actually. (You could have used some paragraph separation.) My response had to do with your idea of grace. Yes, people can have grace of God as God wills, though it is outwardly if not in the Church; that does not mean one has any tie to the one Church either (hence why I mentioned degrees of "membership" in the RCC and those outside having imperfect communion which I guess you didn't understand - these are different degrees of inward and outward grace). The uncreated grace of God will lead one to the Church if one is receptive. They won't remain where they are. They will look for the Truth. If they do not look for the Truth and stay put then they have not been receptive to God's grace. We confess but we have God's grace infused in us at baptism and Chrismation in the [Orthodox] Church. We don't have the "state of grace" idea that RCs have.
@@traceyedson9652Good thing you don't bother. People who don't really have a point usually resort to strawmen; and people who are fond of battling strawmen of their own making are rarely open to good faith exchanges.
With due love and respect to my Orthodox brethren, I'm always moved to reflect on Gods mercy seeing that since the Great Schism, Orthodxy has remained a generally unfruitful wing of Christianity seemingly wrapped in bitterness and contumely within its ranks and general apostolic unfruitfulness (and strange obsession with Catholicism) without. While the Roman church has continued to permeate the entire globe with its apostolic enterprise becoming more and more truly catholic, Orthodoxy (and Protestantism in general) remain trapped in their medieval enclaves in the levant and eastern Europe with very little to show beyond (currently constituting less than a fifth of Christendom). This demonstrates how God, in His mercy may permit error for a time for His own glorious purposes, but never allows it to spread beyond its assigned limits. Job 38:8-11 Psalm 89:9 Jeremiah 5:22
What was Jesus Christ referring to when he said in Mathew 23:9 when he says not to call anyone on earth father? And why do we call men in the Orthodox as well as the Roman Catholic Churches “fathers”?
@EasternChristian333 "Protestantism...focusing on one or two passages..." begat 40,000 sects. Not sure how that approach squares with, "Not one jot or tittle is changed". - Jesus Seems like all the Bible passages deserve careful consideration. Otherwise, you end up with people waving pit vipers around in church, because - "Look at this passage in Matthew..."
@EasternChristian333 "Protestantism...focusing on one or two passages..." begat 40,000 sects. Not sure how that approach squares with, "Not one jot or tittle is changed". - Jesus Seems like all the Bible passages deserve careful consideration. Otherwise, you end up with people waving pit vipers around in church, because - "Look at this passage in Matthew..."
I have to thank Father Heers for his book "The New Ecclesiology of Vatican II". I was a traditional Catholic opposed to the liturgical and theological innovations that originated in the great confusion of the Second Vatican "conciliabulo". To my Orthodox brethren, who have a similar background to mine, I would recommend warmly the reading of this remarkable book that can help us a lot in strengthening our Orthodox Faith.
Christ is not an adulterer. He gave his whole self to his bride Church,Orthodoxy.
True but He is full of mercy. He made Hosea take back his adulterous wife. A typology to show His grace and mercy.
@@ntlearning point being, the mercy is the re entering union.
Thank you, Father Peter, for this excellent exposition of the inversion tactic of deceit first introduced and established in the prefiguring spirit of anti-Christ, in Genesis 3:4&5... The quotation from the questioner is a flawed real-life argument for the claim that the Church can be represented in fullness & incompleteness at the same time...
Thank God for Fr Peter 🙏
Hi Fr. Heers, would you ever consider debating or even having a long form discussion with a Trent Horn or Jimmy Akin? I would really love to see this and maybe it would help to expose some Catholics to the fullness of the Truth in Christ that is Orthodoxy.
I would consider it
Would Trent or Jimmy?
Not sure but I went to look for the page that Fr. Peter pulled up and it seems that GOARCH took down that blasphemous nonsense. Glad someone brought it up and hopefully we can keep the Hierarch in check and remember to please pray for them to do the right things.
Amazing
It’s a fair critique, forgive me for being crass. Inviting Trent Horne to a conversational debate would be helpful
It feels like much of our problems today stem from the failed council at Crete.
Where's Erick Ybarra the great refuter of Orthodoxy who professes loyalty to the Church Fathers as a Roman Catholic to refute this presentation
If you have a Pope and Magisterium that issues these documents, why do you need a fallible layman to interpret what the infallible Pope says?
The Church Fathers would actually agree with Fr.Peter, they would never teach anything blasphemous or heretical like the Latin saint John Bosco who claims the Pope is equal to God.
@@ΆγιοςΙερώνυμος-χ2γ Do you know what papal infallibility is??? Describe it. Plus if papal infallibility actually meant what many think that the pope is always right then why does he go to confession and receive sacraments??? Plus provide sources of St John Bosco saying the Pope is equal to God???
I think having fits over the GOARCH statement that clearly apes RC teaching isn’t necessary. I think I understand it but having read the VII docs ages ago, I find it in accord with his the OC applies its teaching in grace. We are not always capable of receiving the grave God has for us. It’s not - can’t be - all or nothing. Grace formed the Scripture. Anyone who interacts with Scripture can receive grace, more or less. VII simply teaches that separated churches and communities, by virtue of the Scripture, baptism and other pieties participate still to a lesser extent in the life of the Church. It’s like when I go to Confession it’s no doubt imperfect. But it’s not nothing. As I progress, hopefully my confessions & repentance approach perfection. Obviously, the more perfect my heart, the more grace I can receive. The grace doesn’t change; God in His just mercy provides what I can handle and honors my openness/closedness to Him. In the Liturgy we pray that the Eucharist be unto us “according to each one’s individual needs.” Recognizing that grace is imparted to all via the common gifts of life & sunshine, etc. means, too, that those who read & apply the scripture are not left completely bereft. It’s a gift through the Church to all. It’s dangerous, yes, and many are deluded. But even in the Church many remain ignorant or deluded. Nothing is automatic. Nothing is all or nothing. Acknowledging that other folks who confess Christ and seek salvation in Him aren’t completely separated from Him or bereft of grace and are in some manner within the orbit of the Church is hardly new or modernist.
To RCs, grace is created.
Anyway, from the Orthodox side one either is in the Church or is not, there are no degrees of communion such as Vatican II says for the RCC. One is either in communion, or not. This is why all Orthodox Christians are Chrismated and communed.
There's no tiers to "membership" like being only baptized in the Church (entry level member), or being baptized and having first communion (partial member), or being baptized and communed and confirmed (full member). All Orthodox Christians are the latter. We also don't have "imperfect communion" of those who are in heterodox communities.
@@LadyMaria clearly didn’t respond to what I wrote. And nobody says anything about degrees of membership. But it’s clear in scripture, praxis, & sense that there are degrees of proximity to the Truth. Even you are moving toward the Center, and I assume confess when you’ve moved away.
@@traceyedson9652 I clearly did respond to the jist of it, omitting response to things I didn't find needful to reply to.
**I** said something about degrees of membership, which is what the RCC teaches, and is pertinent to your comment, which I did read actually. (You could have used some paragraph separation.)
My response had to do with your idea of grace. Yes, people can have grace of God as God wills, though it is outwardly if not in the Church; that does not mean one has any tie to the one Church either (hence why I mentioned degrees of "membership" in the RCC and those outside having imperfect communion which I guess you didn't understand - these are different degrees of inward and outward grace).
The uncreated grace of God will lead one to the Church if one is receptive. They won't remain where they are. They will look for the Truth. If they do not look for the Truth and stay put then they have not been receptive to God's grace.
We confess but we have God's grace infused in us at baptism and Chrismation in the [Orthodox] Church. We don't have the "state of grace" idea that RCs have.
@@LadyMaria well, we’re not going to settle this here. We’re not really talking about the same thing.
Blessings
@@traceyedson9652Good thing you don't bother. People who don't really have a point usually resort to strawmen; and people who are fond of battling strawmen of their own making are rarely open to good faith exchanges.
With due love and respect to my Orthodox brethren, I'm always moved to reflect on Gods mercy seeing that since the Great Schism, Orthodxy has remained a generally unfruitful wing of Christianity seemingly wrapped in bitterness and contumely within its ranks and general apostolic unfruitfulness (and strange obsession with Catholicism) without. While the Roman church has continued to permeate the entire globe with its apostolic enterprise becoming more and more truly catholic, Orthodoxy (and Protestantism in general) remain trapped in their medieval enclaves in the levant and eastern Europe with very little to show beyond (currently constituting less than a fifth of Christendom). This demonstrates how God, in His mercy may permit error for a time for His own glorious purposes, but never allows it to spread beyond its assigned limits.
Job 38:8-11
Psalm 89:9
Jeremiah 5:22
What was Jesus Christ referring to when he said in Mathew 23:9 when he says not to call anyone on earth father? And why do we call men in the Orthodox as well as the Roman Catholic Churches “fathers”?
Welcome to the Orthodox Ethos. Fr. Peter Heers answers so many questions. A search of the videos likely has answers to many of your questions.
What did He say right after that verse
We made a video on this very topic, you can watch it here! ua-cam.com/video/5K8m2BADWrI/v-deo.htmlsi=6ztzFKwIPhiz9Ywt
@EasternChristian333 "Protestantism...focusing on one or two passages..." begat 40,000 sects.
Not sure how that approach squares with, "Not one jot or tittle is changed". - Jesus
Seems like all the Bible passages deserve careful consideration. Otherwise, you end up with people waving pit vipers around in church, because - "Look at this passage in Matthew..."
@EasternChristian333 "Protestantism...focusing on one or two passages..." begat 40,000 sects.
Not sure how that approach squares with, "Not one jot or tittle is changed". - Jesus
Seems like all the Bible passages deserve careful consideration. Otherwise, you end up with people waving pit vipers around in church, because - "Look at this passage in Matthew..."
Master Splinter 🤣
Rose was s student of slavophile Kireyevsky.
Father Seraphim Rose just pointed out what was happening in American Orthodoxy.
Yes. Indeed.