Cool speaker. My first speakers had horns, my second speakers had horns, and now I have two pairs of Klipsch speakers. Even 1975 when I bought my first speakers and had great hearing, I loved a little extra on the high end.
The only thing I would change(personal preference) is to remove the waveguide screws and hit them with some flat black spray paint or get some black screws from lowes,Home Depot. It would match the ones on the woofer better
Hey Ron, thanks for commenting. You and I think alike. For my restorations, I do just that on the screw heads to make them blend in seamlessly. If I get around to it, may do that for these too, a quick visual improvement for sure.
Hello Scott. Another fine comparison video. Question: have to upgraded the Cap in the NL Advents. I run / listen to a SxS pair of NLA both with new 13mf caps replaced. Makes a noticeable difference. I also run stacked OLA speakers with those caps (and grill cloth) upgrades. Fantastic sounding as well. The OLA have to vintages of crossovers. If you need any addl. info on crossovers I have all the schematics etc.
Hi Pat. As of now, I have left them original, but I do have another set of OLA Walnut that need restoration. So I am planning to upgrade the caps in that set, then do a comparison and even try stacking.
Hi I have been designing and building speakers and after building a couple of pairs of towers tmm and MTM I decided I wanted to design a 2 way old school throw back speaker like the Advent but the problem is finding a 10" woofer that can be crossed over at a higher frequency. You want to cross around 1400 Hz because that's when they really start beaming that's probably why the Advent doesn't have such a big sound stage. In the wave guide they used a comprehensive driver on yours because they can be crossed over at a lower frequency and take care of some of the mid bass duty which is maybe why the diy speakers sound blended in the mids . I used just a stout tweeter that can be crossed over at 1400 to meet my woofer with what is called a 3rd order high pass and 3 rd order low pass filter for the crossover that way I can reduce the crossover frequency and reduce distortion. I ported mine with a down firing port to make it easier to place and I use short speaker stands. If not the port will make to much bass off the floor so I designed them for stands. I set out with goals and I surpassed anything I imagined . I also made multi layer cabinets and liined the insides and I used hard solid oak over.75 MDF with a industrial flooring adhesive. They weigh 80 lbs a piece and have no vibration. I also used top notch ofc pure copper wire, silver solder, and high end capistors and inductors . All of it made a huge difference in the sound. I probably put a $1000 into them but they are worth it I never had a speaker that sounded good and I owned some $10000 speakers and these sound much better. I have few other nice designs but they are my reference pair
@@stereoniche Thank you very much and I enjoy watching your channel. I'm a big fan of vintage gear which got me started. I know I can talk a little too much about my speakers 😂 but I appreciate that you actually took the time to read this. ✌️
You will appreciate my current project. Started working with a professional designer to modify one of his existing designs which is an open baffle (OB) speaker in a TMW design with a horn loaded compression driver. Because this is a design he had done in the past, knew the drivers would play well with each other, knew the crossover points etc. But I wanted to make a few changes. First change was to bi-amp the speaker as my personal belief is that, in most TMW designs, there is a benefit from separately powering the woofer. First, getting full performance from most woofers requires quite a bit of power (200 plus wpc). Second, it really opens up your options for the TM portion of the speaker because the TM portion typically doesn’t need that much power. Second, OB are not known for bass performance, so I wanted to add a second woofer. At first, I was just going to invent the original design to be a WMTMW. I decided against this for 2 reasons. One, that results in a really tall speaker. Second, having a woofer 5 feet off the floor is not a great location for a woofer for bass response. The final design is a MTWW design. The ideal configuration would have been MTMWW, but a second midrange would not fit under the woofers and still keep the tweeter anywhere near ear height (Yes, I am using huge, ie 15” woofers). The advantages of this design is that I should have improved bass response compared to the original design which had only one woofer per side and was completely passive. Also, there is no change in the attenuation portion of the crossover because I am using just one midrange per the original design. Crossover changes are minimal. The downside is that the original design features physical time alignment. That speaker was fashioned out of a 3.5” piece of hardwood and angled back. I’m using 1.75” butcher block and really can’t do physical time alignment. I am really concerned about time alignment because the midrange is not close to the woofers so I am using a processor which has both room correction and allows me to do time alignment. I’m hoping that this will be my “end game” speaker. The drivers and wave guides alone are around $2,000 (wave guides are custom built for the compression driver I am using). I am cautiously optimistic that it will turn out well as I am starting out with a proven design and working the designer who created this design to make my changes. But changes can introduce unexpected problems and you never know for sure until the speaker is completed and listened to. So we will see. I salute anyone who goes down the DIY rabbit hole in any form!!!!
@@BostonMike68OB speakers have a sound that I like and from a DIY perspective, are easier to build. Downside as you know is that you don’t get the cabinet reinforcement for the bass (Hence the reason for dual 15” woofers). The use of dual 15” woofers forces my tweeter (horn loaded compression driver) to be mounted higher on the baffle than what would be ideal (36” give or take). However, with the improved dispersion of the horn/waveguide, I think I have room to have the tweeter a little higher than optimal. Second, the waveguide/horn allows the tweeter to play lower than it otherwise could (crossover point of 1.2kHz). My midrange is only playing from that point lower until the woofers kick in around 180-200Hz. You can really think of this as a 2-way designs sitting on a pair of powered subs! lol! The end result is a big speaker which will probably be over 100 lbs. each. Hopefully, all the time and expense will be worth it.
I’m sorry, but a wave guide is about A LOT more than just blending in with the woofer! Tweeters in general tend to beam sound and a wave guide can decrease this tendency to beam and greatly improve the tweeter’s dispersion pattern. Second, this particular speaker looks more like a horn. Horns amplify the sound coming out of the speaker which often means that it can increase the useable frequency response of the driver. Dispersion and amplification are NOT mutually exclusive and a horn can both increase useable frequency response and improve dispersion. How well any of this works depends on the skill and expertise of the designer. I would caution anyone considering just modifying an existing design. It is easy to address one issue and in the process create another one. For example, the horn in this speaker will increase the loudness of the tweeter which may require the addition of attenuation in the crossover or maybe a change in the degree of attenuation. Unless you have full confidence in the person who designed the retrofit, I would not do this. Most of the time, if a speaker does not suit your needs, a different speaker that does suit your needs is easier than trying to modify your existing speakers. There is one exception to this: GR-Research offers retrofits for many older speakers. As I understand it, they will test the speaker, identify the problems and attempt to correct them. Usually this takes the form of changes in the crossover and/or improvement in parts quality of the crossover. If this interests you, I would get on UA-cam and see if Danny Ritchie of GR-Research has already done a video on changes he made to your speaker of choice. If nothing else, those videos will give you a better idea of what services he offers (And no, I do not work or nor am I affiliated in any way with GR-Research). There are probably other companies that do this as well. I wish it was a simple as just making a simple change. Most of the time, it’s not. I’ve gone down the DIY rabbit hole a number of times and what you come away from that is new found respect for all the factors designers take into account when making a good design.
Advent speaker, hanno un loro fascino vintage non sono d'accordo con chi tende a modificarla,un amico ricordo che cambio',alcuni componenti nel crossover dopodiché il suono perse qualcosa,io penso che i progettisti di allora conoscevano molto bene il suono.grazie mille per il video
Sono completamente d'accordo! La mia prospettiva è sempre stata quella di mantenere lo sforzo progettuale dell'ingegnere. Che ti piaccia o lo odi, il design originale è l'espressione artistica dell'ingegnere del suono. Anche se ritengo che sia opportuno sostituire i condensatori, questi dovrebbero essere il più vicino possibile alle specifiche originali per preservare il suono. Cerco sempre di ripristinare eventuali altoparlanti o apparecchiature, se possibile. Nei pochissimi casi in cui i cabinet sono irreparabili, cercherò di recuperare i componenti in modo che altri altoparlanti possano essere ripristinati.
IMO, Horns distort the intended "3d Image" of the music. While you may be getting a slightly expanded sound field.. its a sound field that has been Distorted, to achieve this feet. The highs are most effected.. which is why the tweeters sound very different than they should. I say, that its like Cupping your hands to make your voice louder. While it amplifies the sound... it also changes its characteristics. The effect of cupping your hands, is far more notable than a horn speaker... but there still is a notable difference. The level that you might actually notice the difference, largely depends on the quality of the Drivers themselves. A driver that is not very accurate, will tend to have more distortions, and wont be able to reveal the full 3D Image to such a level of Clarity (if at all). I personally own a paid of Large Advents, gifted to me from a man that was downsizing. At that time, I already had fallen in LOVE with a pair of refurbished EPI 100v speakers. I found the Advents to have a slightly lower bass level... and a lot more power in the bass at higher volume levels... which is expected, as they are larger drivers. However... I felt that the bass that they produced, was far too "Exaggerated" for music... especially at mid to high volume levels. It made them too un-natural for my tastes. That said... they make EXCELLENT Home Theatre boosters. When watching a Bluray of "The Polar Express"... the part where the Train first rolls in... The amount of bass power was able to shake the room, as if I had a high powered subwoofer system (which I do not). I have often wondered if there was a problem with the crossovers in the Advents... but IMO, that would probably not effect the Bass... only the Highs.. right?! I do have to say... that If you have never heard / owned a pair of EPI 100v speakers... that you pick up a pair. Get the ones with the Upgraded Tweeter (it has a plastic mounting Bezel around it, rather than a fiber-board bezel)... as it has much greater definition, clarity, and imaging. The EPIs are a sealed 2way, with a very powerful 8" woofer.. and a very unique CONCAVE (inverted) tweeter / mid. The designer also made the woofer to use larger gauge wire windings... to act as a natural way to cancel out high frequencies that would go to the woofer.. so as not to need an additional crossover part, that would/could change the sound. The tweeter itself, is ABSOLUTE MAGIC !!! Years ago, I went into my friends Slot-Car + 80s Arcade... and he was playing some Disco.. like Earth, Wind and Fire. Disco, is extremely detailed and dynamic... and this can cause a lot of issues with poor quality drivers, distorting the many different instruments and vocals together. But here.. the sound was Crystal clear... and all over the room. The "Sweet Spot" / Soundstage was... almost the entire Room area that I was in! I was completely blown away by the sound... and I began to hunt for these speakers, as I really wanted a Pair! The old man was a huge Pack-Rat / Hoarder, and he had various stacks of Magazines, DVDs, paperwork, parts and pieces, boxes, figures..etc... all over the place. My ears are very sensitive, similar to yours. I used to be able to hear the Whine of my grandmothers CRT TV... even from a good +30 ft away from it. Anyway... I must have spent a good 10 to 15 minutes, TRYING to find these speakers, in an area that was about 20 ft squared (the room extended a good 80? ft long.. but I could tell it wasnt that far away). After all of that time, and failing... I gave up, and asked my friend what the hell those speakers were... and WHERE the hell they were! He pointed to the front of the store... right in front of the large glass window. I still didnt see them, so he walked me over to them. One was laying on its side, with nearly 2ft worth of magazines on top of it. The other was about 5ft away from it.. vertically oriented, with stuff on top of it as well. One of the speakers was partially behind a Sit-Down racing games sign (Atari's Race Drivin). Both were about 1ft in front of the stores glass window. Basically put... it was some of the worst placements for speakers... and yet.. they were flippin Amazing! SO crisply detailed, yet not Harsh / Shouty. The bass was deep (far deeper than you would ever imagine, from such a small sized woofer) punchy, clean, luscious. The mids were equally crystal clear, clean, and detailed... and again.. not being overly harsh. The 3d soundstage was unlike anything Id ever experienced.. blowing away a pair of Di-Pole Ribbon tweeters, that I had heard years before. But what really floored me.. was how the speakers basically "Vanished" from the room. If someone put a blindfold on you... spun you around 30x, and asked you to FIND them.. you literally wouldnt be able to do so. They were that "Holographic" in their "Projection" of the "3D Image". When I finally got my hands on my own... I was initially forced to place them under my PC Desk, due to a lack of space. I thought the highs and soundstage would be severely crippled and muffled... But I was completely blown away, as it sounded as if they were not covered over / blocked, at all. Eventually, I would move them to my long attic.. for optimal listening.. and man.. it was just as an amazing experience as ever. Something I noticed fairly early into my listening... was when I was playing a song whos lyrics that the singer was so "Muddy", that it was impossible to recognize what words that he was singing. But OMG... this the EPIs were so clear, and non-distorting.. that for the first time in my life.. I was able to fully hear and understand what lyrics he was singing. I was shocked to my core... as I had heard this song for decades, on many different speakers and headphones... and NEVER could previously understand what he was singing.
Part 2: Anyways... with the larger open space of the attic... I was able to place them about 8ft apart... and they could project in the empty carpeted floor, about 20ft, before there were any structures and objects. One of the more amazing things... was that you didnt have to stand right in the center of the room.. to get that perfect "Sweet Spot" sound. In fact, you could almost be directly in front of the left speakers path (about 1ft closer towards center) ... and still get a perfect sweet spot sound / image). You didnt really notice a drop-off in levels, until you got directly in the line of one speaker... and even then, it was still really good... just a tad notable in some losses. The EPI's tweeter / mid... is FAR more refined and accurate, than the Advents "fried-egg" driver. Personally, I found the Advents tweeter to be a little to mid-harsh.. and the highs to be a bit too "Visible" (artificially noticeable). They definitely didnt "Vanish" into the room, like the EPIs... and while they had decent definition... they were nowhere near as accurate, so that same song where the EPIs could separate the music from the vocals so well.. that you could understand the lyrics... the Advents couldnt quite reach that level of Clarity and Replication. Now... the only other speaker that blew me away in a very different manor.. was a set that I heard at a 2nd hand shop... which are in storage at the moment. I cant recall the brand name... and I believe they are very obscure. While the bass was not that good on them... the mids were so Luscious and Buttery Smooth.. that I had to have them. They used what I believe is a 3" dome Midrange driver. The tweeter and woofer, were just "Acceptable"... but the mids, were unlike anything I had heard before... as usually, mids are just way too Harsh for my ears. With these... I really enjoyed the mids, even cranked up quite loud. As good as the EPIs are with mids... they can be a hair harsh for my taste. A little EQ works wonders for that. As such... Ive wanted to try to install those dome Mids, with the EPIs inverted tweeters & woofers... to see if that might take the EPIs to an even greater level. Note: Re my experience with Ribbon tweeter.. it was from a tiny Radio-Shack bookshelf speaker. A 2way, with a dual pole ribbon set, mounted under a metal dome mesh. The clarity was quite amazing.. but because the sound was able to travel in a full 360 degrees at the same time... it actually caused timing based distortions. Sort of like "Echos" that shouldnt have been there... where you would hear the same sounds, but slightly off timed. It might be interesting for very "Airy" music.. but for the most part, it ruined the actual 3d image to the point of being non-listenable, to me. I also once snagged a pair of PC based Planer drivers. I cant recall their name.. .but its slogan was "Drenched in audio" or something like that. Anyways.. to my ears, they didnt sound that good at all. The only other interesting thing I have experienced in speakers that was Unique, was a "WOOX" boombox from Phillips. The Woox driver is basically a Passive-Radiator.. however, it has a very unique 3 ring expansion on it.. and.. if you take the thing out, you will note that there are actually TWO of these, spaced about 1 inch apart. The Depth and power of the bass that these little 5 to 6 " drivers could produce, was simply astounding. Not only that.. but at full volume levels.. the bass never Distorted. Not even a Little bit. The other drivers in it were also very clean and clear... making them some of the better speakers that Ive ever heard. Sadly... when the Woox drivers got Foam-Rot... there was nothing that could be done to save them. Id later see that Phillips did in fact make some Woox passive assembly's, that were made of a tough clear Plastic... which would be indestructible. The Boom Box itself had special EQ modes, that would boost the low-end, in order to be able to "Excite" the passives much greater.. at lower volume levels. I often thought about trying to duplicate the WOOX passives, in a larger diameter full-size speaker... using 3 foam ring kits. Maybe use a Vacuum press, to create an actual plastic set of them. I think what differentiated them from typical passives... was in their potential levels of Excursion. They could travel / expand much further than typical passives of the same diameter. Also... from what I read while researching them... is that the Woofers that they used in those speakers... were Custom made to have a higher excursion distance themselves. Which explains why they could handle much much power / thump.. without Distorting.
@@stereoniche Im relatively new to the Audiophile group. My first introduction, was due to me constantly breaking my headphones. They usually wouldnt last more than 3 months time... I believe I had went to CompUsa, and they had something like a Koss or Sony, and Sennheiser. The Sennheiser HD 500 's were about $130, where as the others were like $80. I didnt have a lot of money.. but I thought that maybe if I spent more.. that the headphones might last longer. What sold me, was the fact that the Sennheisers had a removable / replaceable cable. I remember thinking to myself.. that if these last and sound the same as all of the other Sub-$100 headphones... Im gonna Cry. When I finally was ready to try them, it was like 2am. At that time, I had my PC hooked up to a Pioneer 5.1 surround sound receiver that I had bought when I was 17 (Im 50 now, and its still working as good as the day I bought it). I had 4 fullsize Techniques 12" 3-way speakers (200 watts each), for my surround system. Anyways... I put the headphones on, and went to play a DVD on my system. Suddenly the music BLASTED out loudly... and I realized that I probably forgot to toggle my Speakers off. I ripped the headphones off, and Dove for the Amps toggle... only to realize, that None of the speakers were On. The 3d Soundstage was so Convincing... that it completely fooled me. I totally was blown away. They were just the start that got me hooked on what Audiophile ACTUALLY meant. But according to Senns site.. they were the very Bottom tier of their Audiophile lineup. Eventually, I found someone on Craigslist, that was selling a Mint pair of HD590 's. I believe I paid about $150 for them. At the time that I first tried them.. they sounded bass-anemic.. but.. I thought that maybe it was a fluke, and got them anyways. When I got them home.. I had a similar experience. They had a high frequency range that totally DESTROYED the clarity and quality of the HD500 's.. but the bass was lacking.... UNTILL... I played some high definition audio through them.. such as a DVD, high-res youtube vids, CDs or Flac files. Then there was Thunderous and LOW bass... that went FAR beyond what the HD500 's were capable of. Turned out that the HD590s were of such sensitivity and accuracy.. that they revealed every flaw in my Low quality MP3s.. that I initially tried with them. Where as the 500's were able to mask the imperfections of those low quality mp3s. Now... I have always been interested in speakers, computers, basic electronics, woodworking.. and more. I used to collect various speakers.. often finding them cheap at Thrift shops. I was always interested in seeing how different speakers sounded, and how they differed internally. I began experimenting with trying to mix and match drivers.. and make my own speakers. Interestingly enough, I had accidentally discovered the magic of Open-Baffle speakers, when I was first making a mock-up box for a small speaker box. I realized that they sounded great at a certain box shape / volume. However, after cutting and assembling the thing... I realize that when I added the rear back piece to fully seal them... they didnt sound nearly as good. I would quickly learn that the box itself was almost never the issue with speakers. And that by trying to just wire in more drivers, or swapping drivers around.. the sound quality rarely ever improved. Eventually I would find out why. I would find those EPI speakers, and see just how different those Drivers really were. I would do research into these differences.. and then I began searching for other high quality speakers / drivers... rather than just picking up low quality speakers.. just because they looked good / interesting "externally". I could usually tell by picking a speaker up. The modern speakers are ported.. and have much weaker "Eco-Woofers". (Much like my Techniques woofers) They have much smaller and weaker magnets... and they use weaker Coils. As a result, they distort way too much. Furthermore... I realized the magic of fully sealed speakers, vs Ported. Ports make "Artificial" sounding and "Droning" bass... and they also suffer from port Chuffing distortion issues... and much more. When hearing the bass from my EPIs... the bass was so much more Enjoyable and Realistic.. that I put my Techs on the Curb, instantly. The Phillips passive radiator speakers were also a decent comparable level of quality.. that FAR succeeded over any Ported speaker that Id ever heard. Especially when playing at louder volume levels.. which is where ported sound gets super muddy and droning. Ive probably owned about 30 different pairs of speakers in my life... Only to realize that most were total trash. But when I found the "real deals".. it was life changing. Best Regards
To me, a speaker that has "pinpoint" imaging is an absolutely poor performer. That the Advent receives a 15 rating implies, to me, one of above average (in a scale of 20 total) and is seemingly not representative of what you actually heard. Is the imaging of the Advent really that collapsed? I must say that even the least expensive speakers I have of the many I own images far better than pinpoint (again, I assume "pinpoint" denotes a very small, collapsed soundstage).
To be honest with you, I was having just this kind of thought myself. After further consideration, I came to the same conclusion that I over valued that part of their performance. It is very narrow, indeed. So I am rethinking how I can update the scale to correct it. To be clear, they "Image" very well, but the "Soundstage" is narrow.
I think sometimes you're hunting for an adjective that describes what you hear. For example, when you describe hearing instrument separation, are you alluding to details, such as attack and decay. This is more pronounced if listening to a close mic 🎤 on a piano. The hammers strike the strings and you may or may not hear the hammer strike. Same thing with guitar 🎸 string pluck. This may or may not be what you're describing in separation. Perhaps you're referring to the various instruments? While listening you can identify one instrument vs another? I'm just not sure what message your telling us? When you give rated sensitivity, those numbers may not be accurate. Published numbers don't necessarily match reality. If you're using the same source and the same amplifier settings, how do they compare in volume to the Advent? What about power handling and dynamics? These should figure into a rating comparison IMHO. Thanks for your videos. These are only suggestions.
This review of a wave guide speaker does not reflect the performance of other wave guide speakers. Far from it. If the the horn had a compression driver like a B&C D250 or better a Radian 475pb and good crossover designed from the late Zilch. That Advent would not be close in any sound aspect, especially not in imaging and sound stage. Guaranteed. This unknown creature from an unknown designer with unkown parts does in no way reflect a good waveguide design.
Given they are all DIY, don't you think each would have their own signature? Even one designed by late Zilch himself may or may not appeal to you like it may appeal to others. All subjective just like the designs themselves.
Without knowing the components or crossover of the diy wave guide it is hard to compare it against the advent. I was curious on the “flavor” of the wave guide design also. Meaning what level of drivers was the wave guide using? Are they jbl selenium? With Dayton woofer? Or high end DE250 with JBL woofer of some sort. With the scores given against the advent speakers I would assume that cheap components were used to make that speaker. The critique of “klipsch” people like the sound meaning that it is very high ended is something I would associate with a compression driver like the jbl selenium 220
Cool speaker. My first speakers had horns, my second speakers had horns, and now I have two pairs of Klipsch speakers. Even 1975 when I bought my first speakers and had great hearing, I loved a little extra on the high end.
Sounds like you like horns! :-)
I'd LOVE to see the plans for that WaveGuide speaker! Perfect next project before I try to build some Klonwalls. Perfect size too.
The only thing I would change(personal preference) is to remove the waveguide screws and hit them with some flat black spray paint or get some black screws from lowes,Home Depot. It would match the ones on the woofer better
Hey Ron, thanks for commenting. You and I think alike. For my restorations, I do just that on the screw heads to make them blend in seamlessly. If I get around to it, may do that for these too, a quick visual improvement for sure.
@@stereoniche I kinda like the silver screws.
Hello Scott. Another fine comparison video. Question: have to upgraded the Cap in the NL Advents. I run / listen to a SxS pair of NLA both with new 13mf caps replaced. Makes a noticeable difference. I also run stacked OLA speakers with those caps (and grill cloth) upgrades. Fantastic sounding as well. The OLA have to vintages of crossovers. If you need any addl. info on crossovers I have all the schematics etc.
Hi Pat. As of now, I have left them original, but I do have another set of OLA Walnut that need restoration. So I am planning to upgrade the caps in that set, then do a comparison and even try stacking.
A relevant comparison would have been the "factory" Advents to a pair of Advents that have been modified with waveguides
Hi I have been designing and building speakers and after building a couple of pairs of towers tmm and MTM I decided I wanted to design a 2 way old school throw back speaker like the Advent but the problem is finding a 10" woofer that can be crossed over at a higher frequency. You want to cross around 1400 Hz because that's when they really start beaming that's probably why the Advent doesn't have such a big sound stage. In the wave guide they used a comprehensive driver on yours because they can be crossed over at a lower frequency and take care of some of the mid bass duty which is maybe why the diy speakers sound blended in the mids . I used just a stout tweeter that can be crossed over at 1400 to meet my woofer with what is called a 3rd order high pass and 3 rd order low pass filter for the crossover that way I can reduce the crossover frequency and reduce distortion. I ported mine with a down firing port to make it easier to place and I use short speaker stands. If not the port will make to much bass off the floor so I designed them for stands. I set out with goals and I surpassed anything I imagined . I also made multi layer cabinets and liined the insides and I used hard solid oak over.75 MDF with a industrial flooring adhesive. They weigh 80 lbs a piece and have no vibration. I also used top notch ofc pure copper wire, silver solder, and high end capistors and inductors . All of it made a huge difference in the sound. I probably put a $1000 into them but they are worth it I never had a speaker that sounded good and I owned some $10000 speakers and these sound much better. I have few other nice designs but they are my reference pair
Seems like you put in some great effort and learned a great deal to create your own perfect speaker. Job well done!
@@stereoniche Thank you very much and I enjoy watching your channel. I'm a big fan of vintage gear which got me started. I know I can talk a little too much about my speakers 😂 but I appreciate that you actually took the time to read this. ✌️
You will appreciate my current project. Started working with a professional designer to modify one of his existing designs which is an open baffle (OB) speaker in a TMW design with a horn loaded compression driver. Because this is a design he had done in the past, knew the drivers would play well with each other, knew the crossover points etc. But I wanted to make a few changes. First change was to bi-amp the speaker as my personal belief is that, in most TMW designs, there is a benefit from separately powering the woofer. First, getting full performance from most woofers requires quite a bit of power (200 plus wpc). Second, it really opens up your options for the TM portion of the speaker because the TM portion typically doesn’t need that much power.
Second, OB are not known for bass performance, so I wanted to add a second woofer. At first, I was just going to invent the original design to be a WMTMW. I decided against this for 2 reasons. One, that results in a really tall speaker. Second, having a woofer 5 feet off the floor is not a great location for a woofer for bass response. The final design is a MTWW design. The ideal configuration would have been MTMWW, but a second midrange would not fit under the woofers and still keep the tweeter anywhere near ear height (Yes, I am using huge, ie 15” woofers).
The advantages of this design is that I should have improved bass response compared to the original design which had only one woofer per side and was completely passive. Also, there is no change in the attenuation portion of the crossover because I am using just one midrange per the original design. Crossover changes are minimal. The downside is that the original design features physical time alignment. That speaker was fashioned out of a 3.5” piece of hardwood and angled back. I’m using 1.75” butcher block and really can’t do physical time alignment. I am really concerned about time alignment because the midrange is not close to the woofers so I am using a processor which has both room correction and allows me to do time alignment. I’m hoping that this will be my “end game” speaker. The drivers and wave guides alone are around $2,000 (wave guides are custom built for the compression driver I am using). I am cautiously optimistic that it will turn out well as I am starting out with a proven design and working the designer who created this design to make my changes. But changes can introduce unexpected problems and you never know for sure until the speaker is completed and listened to. So we will see.
I salute anyone who goes down the DIY rabbit hole in any form!!!!
That's sounds something I was thinking about trying. I have a couple of unfinished projects I need to get finished this spring
@@BostonMike68OB speakers have a sound that I like and from a DIY perspective, are easier to build. Downside as you know is that you don’t get the cabinet reinforcement for the bass (Hence the reason for dual 15” woofers). The use of dual 15” woofers forces my tweeter (horn loaded compression driver) to be mounted higher on the baffle than what would be ideal (36” give or take). However, with the improved dispersion of the horn/waveguide, I think I have room to have the tweeter a little higher than optimal. Second, the waveguide/horn allows the tweeter to play lower than it otherwise could (crossover point of 1.2kHz). My midrange is only playing from that point lower until the woofers kick in around 180-200Hz. You can really think of this as a 2-way designs sitting on a pair of powered subs! lol! The end result is a big speaker which will probably be over 100 lbs. each. Hopefully, all the time and expense will be worth it.
I’m sorry, but a wave guide is about A LOT more than just blending in with the woofer! Tweeters in general tend to beam sound and a wave guide can decrease this tendency to beam and greatly improve the tweeter’s dispersion pattern. Second, this particular speaker looks more like a horn. Horns amplify the sound coming out of the speaker which often means that it can increase the useable frequency response of the driver. Dispersion and amplification are NOT mutually exclusive and a horn can both increase useable frequency response and improve dispersion. How well any of this works depends on the skill and expertise of the designer.
I would caution anyone considering just modifying an existing design. It is easy to address one issue and in the process create another one. For example, the horn in this speaker will increase the loudness of the tweeter which may require the addition of attenuation in the crossover or maybe a change in the degree of attenuation. Unless you have full confidence in the person who designed the retrofit, I would not do this. Most of the time, if a speaker does not suit your needs, a different speaker that does suit your needs is easier than trying to modify your existing speakers. There is one exception to this: GR-Research offers retrofits for many older speakers. As I understand it, they will test the speaker, identify the problems and attempt to correct them. Usually this takes the form of changes in the crossover and/or improvement in parts quality of the crossover. If this interests you, I would get on UA-cam and see if Danny Ritchie of GR-Research has already done a video on changes he made to your speaker of choice. If nothing else, those videos will give you a better idea of what services he offers (And no, I do not work or nor am I affiliated in any way with GR-Research). There are probably other companies that do this as well.
I wish it was a simple as just making a simple change. Most of the time, it’s not. I’ve gone down the DIY rabbit hole a number of times and what you come away from that is new found respect for all the factors designers take into account when making a good design.
Advent speaker, hanno un loro fascino vintage non sono d'accordo con chi tende a modificarla,un amico ricordo che cambio',alcuni componenti nel crossover dopodiché il suono perse qualcosa,io penso che i progettisti di allora conoscevano molto bene il suono.grazie mille per il video
Sono completamente d'accordo! La mia prospettiva è sempre stata quella di mantenere lo sforzo progettuale dell'ingegnere. Che ti piaccia o lo odi, il design originale è l'espressione artistica dell'ingegnere del suono. Anche se ritengo che sia opportuno sostituire i condensatori, questi dovrebbero essere il più vicino possibile alle specifiche originali per preservare il suono. Cerco sempre di ripristinare eventuali altoparlanti o apparecchiature, se possibile. Nei pochissimi casi in cui i cabinet sono irreparabili, cercherò di recuperare i componenti in modo che altri altoparlanti possano essere ripristinati.
IMO, Horns distort the intended "3d Image" of the music. While you may be getting a slightly expanded sound field.. its a sound field that has been Distorted, to achieve this feet. The highs are most effected.. which is why the tweeters sound very different than they should. I say, that its like Cupping your hands to make your voice louder. While it amplifies the sound... it also changes its characteristics. The effect of cupping your hands, is far more notable than a horn speaker... but there still is a notable difference.
The level that you might actually notice the difference, largely depends on the quality of the Drivers themselves. A driver that is not very accurate, will tend to have more distortions, and wont be able to reveal the full 3D Image to such a level of Clarity (if at all).
I personally own a paid of Large Advents, gifted to me from a man that was downsizing. At that time, I already had fallen in LOVE with a pair of refurbished EPI 100v speakers.
I found the Advents to have a slightly lower bass level... and a lot more power in the bass at higher volume levels... which is expected, as they are larger drivers. However... I felt that the bass that they produced, was far too "Exaggerated" for music... especially at mid to high volume levels. It made them too un-natural for my tastes. That said... they make EXCELLENT Home Theatre boosters. When watching a Bluray of "The Polar Express"... the part where the Train first rolls in... The amount of bass power was able to shake the room, as if I had a high powered subwoofer system (which I do not). I have often wondered if there was a problem with the crossovers in the Advents... but IMO, that would probably not effect the Bass... only the Highs.. right?!
I do have to say... that If you have never heard / owned a pair of EPI 100v speakers... that you pick up a pair. Get the ones with the Upgraded Tweeter (it has a plastic mounting Bezel around it, rather than a fiber-board bezel)... as it has much greater definition, clarity, and imaging. The EPIs are a sealed 2way, with a very powerful 8" woofer.. and a very unique CONCAVE (inverted) tweeter / mid. The designer also made the woofer to use larger gauge wire windings... to act as a natural way to cancel out high frequencies that would go to the woofer.. so as not to need an additional crossover part, that would/could change the sound.
The tweeter itself, is ABSOLUTE MAGIC !!!
Years ago, I went into my friends Slot-Car + 80s Arcade... and he was playing some Disco.. like Earth, Wind and Fire. Disco, is extremely detailed and dynamic... and this can cause a lot of issues with poor quality drivers, distorting the many different instruments and vocals together. But here.. the sound was Crystal clear... and all over the room. The "Sweet Spot" / Soundstage was... almost the entire Room area that I was in! I was completely blown away by the sound... and I began to hunt for these speakers, as I really wanted a Pair!
The old man was a huge Pack-Rat / Hoarder, and he had various stacks of Magazines, DVDs, paperwork, parts and pieces, boxes, figures..etc... all over the place. My ears are very sensitive, similar to yours. I used to be able to hear the Whine of my grandmothers CRT TV... even from a good +30 ft away from it. Anyway... I must have spent a good 10 to 15 minutes, TRYING to find these speakers, in an area that was about 20 ft squared (the room extended a good 80? ft long.. but I could tell it wasnt that far away). After all of that time, and failing... I gave up, and asked my friend what the hell those speakers were... and WHERE the hell they were!
He pointed to the front of the store... right in front of the large glass window. I still didnt see them, so he walked me over to them. One was laying on its side, with nearly 2ft worth of magazines on top of it. The other was about 5ft away from it.. vertically oriented, with stuff on top of it as well. One of the speakers was partially behind a Sit-Down racing games sign (Atari's Race Drivin). Both were about 1ft in front of the stores glass window. Basically put... it was some of the worst placements for speakers... and yet.. they were flippin Amazing! SO crisply detailed, yet not Harsh / Shouty. The bass was deep (far deeper than you would ever imagine, from such a small sized woofer) punchy, clean, luscious. The mids were equally crystal clear, clean, and detailed... and again.. not being overly harsh.
The 3d soundstage was unlike anything Id ever experienced.. blowing away a pair of Di-Pole Ribbon tweeters, that I had heard years before. But what really floored me.. was how the speakers basically "Vanished" from the room. If someone put a blindfold on you... spun you around 30x, and asked you to FIND them.. you literally wouldnt be able to do so. They were that "Holographic" in their "Projection" of the "3D Image".
When I finally got my hands on my own... I was initially forced to place them under my PC Desk, due to a lack of space. I thought the highs and soundstage would be severely crippled and muffled... But I was completely blown away, as it sounded as if they were not covered over / blocked, at all. Eventually, I would move them to my long attic.. for optimal listening.. and man.. it was just as an amazing experience as ever. Something I noticed fairly early into my listening... was when I was playing a song whos lyrics that the singer was so "Muddy", that it was impossible to recognize what words that he was singing. But OMG... this the EPIs were so clear, and non-distorting.. that for the first time in my life.. I was able to fully hear and understand what lyrics he was singing. I was shocked to my core... as I had heard this song for decades, on many different speakers and headphones... and NEVER could previously understand what he was singing.
Part 2: Anyways... with the larger open space of the attic... I was able to place them about 8ft apart... and they could project in the empty carpeted floor, about 20ft, before there were any structures and objects. One of the more amazing things... was that you didnt have to stand right in the center of the room.. to get that perfect "Sweet Spot" sound. In fact, you could almost be directly in front of the left speakers path (about 1ft closer towards center) ... and still get a perfect sweet spot sound / image). You didnt really notice a drop-off in levels, until you got directly in the line of one speaker... and even then, it was still really good... just a tad notable in some losses.
The EPI's tweeter / mid... is FAR more refined and accurate, than the Advents "fried-egg" driver. Personally, I found the Advents tweeter to be a little to mid-harsh.. and the highs to be a bit too "Visible" (artificially noticeable). They definitely didnt "Vanish" into the room, like the EPIs... and while they had decent definition... they were nowhere near as accurate, so that same song where the EPIs could separate the music from the vocals so well.. that you could understand the lyrics... the Advents couldnt quite reach that level of Clarity and Replication.
Now... the only other speaker that blew me away in a very different manor.. was a set that I heard at a 2nd hand shop... which are in storage at the moment. I cant recall the brand name... and I believe they are very obscure. While the bass was not that good on them... the mids were so Luscious and Buttery Smooth.. that I had to have them. They used what I believe is a 3" dome Midrange driver. The tweeter and woofer, were just "Acceptable"... but the mids, were unlike anything I had heard before... as usually, mids are just way too Harsh for my ears. With these... I really enjoyed the mids, even cranked up quite loud. As good as the EPIs are with mids... they can be a hair harsh for my taste. A little EQ works wonders for that. As such... Ive wanted to try to install those dome Mids, with the EPIs inverted tweeters & woofers... to see if that might take the EPIs to an even greater level.
Note: Re my experience with Ribbon tweeter.. it was from a tiny Radio-Shack bookshelf speaker. A 2way, with a dual pole ribbon set, mounted under a metal dome mesh. The clarity was quite amazing.. but because the sound was able to travel in a full 360 degrees at the same time... it actually caused timing based distortions. Sort of like "Echos" that shouldnt have been there... where you would hear the same sounds, but slightly off timed. It might be interesting for very "Airy" music.. but for the most part, it ruined the actual 3d image to the point of being non-listenable, to me. I also once snagged a pair of PC based Planer drivers. I cant recall their name.. .but its slogan was "Drenched in audio" or something like that. Anyways.. to my ears, they didnt sound that good at all.
The only other interesting thing I have experienced in speakers that was Unique, was a "WOOX" boombox from Phillips. The Woox driver is basically a Passive-Radiator.. however, it has a very unique 3 ring expansion on it.. and.. if you take the thing out, you will note that there are actually TWO of these, spaced about 1 inch apart. The Depth and power of the bass that these little 5 to 6 " drivers could produce, was simply astounding. Not only that.. but at full volume levels.. the bass never Distorted. Not even a Little bit. The other drivers in it were also very clean and clear... making them some of the better speakers that Ive ever heard. Sadly... when the Woox drivers got Foam-Rot... there was nothing that could be done to save them. Id later see that Phillips did in fact make some Woox passive assembly's, that were made of a tough clear Plastic... which would be indestructible. The Boom Box itself had special EQ modes, that would boost the low-end, in order to be able to "Excite" the passives much greater.. at lower volume levels.
I often thought about trying to duplicate the WOOX passives, in a larger diameter full-size speaker... using 3 foam ring kits. Maybe use a Vacuum press, to create an actual plastic set of them. I think what differentiated them from typical passives... was in their potential levels of Excursion. They could travel / expand much further than typical passives of the same diameter. Also... from what I read while researching them... is that the Woofers that they used in those speakers... were Custom made to have a higher excursion distance themselves. Which explains why they could handle much much power / thump.. without Distorting.
LOTS of history there John. I am waiting for Part 3.
@@stereoniche Im relatively new to the Audiophile group. My first introduction, was due to me constantly breaking my headphones. They usually wouldnt last more than 3 months time...
I believe I had went to CompUsa, and they had something like a Koss or Sony, and Sennheiser. The Sennheiser HD 500 's were about $130, where as the others were like $80. I didnt have a lot of money.. but I thought that maybe if I spent more.. that the headphones might last longer. What sold me, was the fact that the Sennheisers had a removable / replaceable cable. I remember thinking to myself.. that if these last and sound the same as all of the other Sub-$100 headphones... Im gonna Cry.
When I finally was ready to try them, it was like 2am. At that time, I had my PC hooked up to a Pioneer 5.1 surround sound receiver that I had bought when I was 17 (Im 50 now, and its still working as good as the day I bought it). I had 4 fullsize Techniques 12" 3-way speakers (200 watts each), for my surround system.
Anyways... I put the headphones on, and went to play a DVD on my system. Suddenly the music BLASTED out loudly... and I realized that I probably forgot to toggle my Speakers off. I ripped the headphones off, and Dove for the Amps toggle... only to realize, that None of the speakers were On. The 3d Soundstage was so Convincing... that it completely fooled me. I totally was blown away.
They were just the start that got me hooked on what Audiophile ACTUALLY meant. But according to Senns site.. they were the very Bottom tier of their Audiophile lineup. Eventually, I found someone on Craigslist, that was selling a Mint pair of HD590 's. I believe I paid about $150 for them. At the time that I first tried them.. they sounded bass-anemic.. but.. I thought that maybe it was a fluke, and got them anyways.
When I got them home.. I had a similar experience. They had a high frequency range that totally DESTROYED the clarity and quality of the HD500 's.. but the bass was lacking.... UNTILL... I played some high definition audio through them.. such as a DVD, high-res youtube vids, CDs or Flac files. Then there was Thunderous and LOW bass... that went FAR beyond what the HD500 's were capable of. Turned out that the HD590s were of such sensitivity and accuracy.. that they revealed every flaw in my Low quality MP3s.. that I initially tried with them. Where as the 500's were able to mask the imperfections of those low quality mp3s.
Now... I have always been interested in speakers, computers, basic electronics, woodworking.. and more. I used to collect various speakers.. often finding them cheap at Thrift shops. I was always interested in seeing how different speakers sounded, and how they differed internally. I began experimenting with trying to mix and match drivers.. and make my own speakers.
Interestingly enough, I had accidentally discovered the magic of Open-Baffle speakers, when I was first making a mock-up box for a small speaker box. I realized that they sounded great at a certain box shape / volume. However, after cutting and assembling the thing... I realize that when I added the rear back piece to fully seal them... they didnt sound nearly as good.
I would quickly learn that the box itself was almost never the issue with speakers. And that by trying to just wire in more drivers, or swapping drivers around.. the sound quality rarely ever improved.
Eventually I would find out why. I would find those EPI speakers, and see just how different those Drivers really were. I would do research into these differences.. and then I began searching for other high quality speakers / drivers... rather than just picking up low quality speakers.. just because they looked good / interesting "externally". I could usually tell by picking a speaker up. The modern speakers are ported.. and have much weaker "Eco-Woofers". (Much like my Techniques woofers) They have much smaller and weaker magnets... and they use weaker Coils. As a result, they distort way too much.
Furthermore... I realized the magic of fully sealed speakers, vs Ported. Ports make "Artificial" sounding and "Droning" bass... and they also suffer from port Chuffing distortion issues... and much more. When hearing the bass from my EPIs... the bass was so much more Enjoyable and Realistic.. that I put my Techs on the Curb, instantly. The Phillips passive radiator speakers were also a decent comparable level of quality.. that FAR succeeded over any Ported speaker that Id ever heard. Especially when playing at louder volume levels.. which is where ported sound gets super muddy and droning.
Ive probably owned about 30 different pairs of speakers in my life... Only to realize that most were total trash. But when I found the "real deals".. it was life changing.
Best Regards
To me, a speaker that has "pinpoint" imaging is an absolutely poor performer. That the Advent receives a 15 rating implies, to me, one of above average (in a scale of 20 total) and is seemingly not representative of what you actually heard. Is the imaging of the Advent really that collapsed? I must say that even the least expensive speakers I have of the many I own images far better than pinpoint (again, I assume "pinpoint" denotes a very small, collapsed soundstage).
To be honest with you, I was having just this kind of thought myself. After further consideration, I came to the same conclusion that I over valued that part of their performance. It is very narrow, indeed. So I am rethinking how I can update the scale to correct it. To be clear, they "Image" very well, but the "Soundstage" is narrow.
I think sometimes you're hunting for an adjective that describes what you hear. For example, when you describe hearing instrument separation, are you alluding to details, such as attack and decay. This is more pronounced if listening to a close mic 🎤 on a piano. The hammers strike the strings and you may or may not hear the hammer strike. Same thing with guitar 🎸 string pluck. This may or may not be what you're describing in separation.
Perhaps you're referring to the various instruments? While listening you can identify one instrument vs another? I'm just not sure what message your telling us?
When you give rated sensitivity, those numbers may not be accurate. Published numbers don't necessarily match reality. If you're using the same source and the same amplifier settings, how do they compare in volume to the Advent?
What about power handling and dynamics? These should figure into a rating comparison IMHO.
Thanks for your videos. These are only suggestions.
Everyone making megaphone speakers now. Booooo!!!
What do you mean by megaphone?
@@BostonMike68 look up the definition of megaphone if that helps
@@bingdong8571 it's not a megaphone, it's a wave guide.
This review of a wave guide speaker does not reflect the performance of other wave guide speakers. Far from it.
If the the horn had a compression driver like a B&C D250 or better a Radian 475pb and good crossover designed from the late Zilch. That Advent would not be close in any sound aspect, especially not in imaging and sound stage. Guaranteed.
This unknown creature from an unknown designer with unkown parts does in no way reflect a good waveguide design.
Given they are all DIY, don't you think each would have their own signature? Even one designed by late Zilch himself may or may not appeal to you like it may appeal to others. All subjective just like the designs themselves.
Without knowing the components or crossover of the diy wave guide it is hard to compare it against the advent.
I was curious on the “flavor” of the wave guide design also. Meaning what level of drivers was the wave guide using? Are they jbl selenium? With Dayton woofer?
Or high end DE250 with JBL woofer of some sort.
With the scores given against the advent speakers I would assume that cheap components were used to make that speaker. The critique of “klipsch” people like the sound meaning that it is very high ended is something I would associate with a compression driver like the jbl selenium 220