I can easily see that Nenya was dearest to Celebrimbor as in some texts (sorry, forgot where) it is said that he was in love with Galadriel, so entrusting her Nenya was also a sign of affection. (I feel for him - unrequited love can be one of the most harrowing experiences in life, how must that be if you are supposed to live for millenia). I think it's plausible that he made some considerations as to give which ring to its future bearer.
This is one of the consequences of the many versions of Galadriel that Tolkien developed over the years. The text you speak of is in Unfinished Tales, specifically an older version of the text in "Galadriel and Celeborn" where Celebrimbor loves Galadriel but she turns to "Celeborn of the Trees". There's even two versions of Galadriel obtaining Nenya. So, her history is quite complex and has many traditions.
@@curtislangford3181 The background stories of Celebrimbor and Galadriel and their kinship changed through several writings, you are referring to the Silmarillion version. They were seemingly not closely related in Unfinished Tales, and Tolkien did not finish the story of either one.
About the three: 1. Do we ever see the Three in immediate action or only their long term effects? Does Vilya assist Elrond with the flooding of the Bruinen and assist with Frodo's healing, or is that all Elrond? Does Narya help Gandalf the Grey survive the dark fire of the Durin's Bane? Does it assist Gandalf the White reverse the leechcraft of Wormtongue or is that Gandalf alone? We can see the work of the Two in the timeless atmosphere and beauty of Rivendell and Lorien and this is the primary purpose and power of the Three. Otherwise we are never told when they are actively in use. 2. What are the other powers of the Three? We know that the original Rings of Power enhanced the abilities of the wearer, but not what that entailed. If you are a smith does it make smithing easier? If you are capable of Craft or the Arts of hand and mind, are those abilities enhanced and if so, how much? The appearance of magic or supernatural power in Tolkien's works is often accompanied by, "it seemed" and "as if" as Tolkien preserves the mystery of magic in his Legendarium. To further complicate the matter, it may be that the powers of the Three change to fit the hand that they grace. 3. Nenya, Narya, and Vilya are also referred to as the Rings of Water, Fire, and Air respectively. Is this association merely an homage to the Silmarils and largely symbolic, or does it imply additional powers imbued into the Three by Celebrimbor? In Art theory, healing is often associated with the color blue (Vilya), and with the element of water (Nenya) so, it makes sense that healing powers would be part of the repertoire of those rings. Other power questions off the top of my head include: Does Gandalf get a +10 on those off stage fireballs in Moria? Is he immune to fire while wearing Narya? Can Galadriel breathe underwater? Does Elrond need to breathe at all with Vilya on his finger, or are the powers of the Three more subtle and less vulgar? You can know a lot about a given thing in the Legendarium and still have so many questions. And, that is just one more reflection of the genius of Tolkien and why I am endlessly in love with and fascinated by his mythology.
1 - I think that's the point with the three. We are talking about "active" use but they are both passive and active. Elrond and Galadriel maintaining their realms as you say. Though, I DO believe that the attack of the flood at the Ford was due to the authority of Elrond and the ring he held. That's what I think, and I see it as a defence of the realm from the invasion of the evil of the Ringwraiths. They did not have the authority of the Lord of Imladris and they were punished. Just like invaders of Lothlorien would suffer under Galadriel. As a natural healer, I also like to think the ring held by Elrond would benefit him in that regard. We know they are rings of healing too, enhancing the natural spirit and "power" of the bearer. Why wouldn't it aid Elrond the healer? I don't think Narya helped Gandalf in any way against the Balrog, nor do I think it aided him dealing with Grima. I think with the latter it was the natural power of Gandalf the White, a far greater force of nature than the poisonous words of Grima. 2 - This is something I have had trouble getting to grips with as well. I tend to see it as enhancing the natural spirit of the bearer, but I wouldn't think it would make a swordsman a better swordsman, but it could perhaps make someone more convincing if they were already someone with a power of words. That kind of thing. Someone who holds a natural charisma and authority may seem even greater. That's how I see it, rather than some skill being enhanced. Though, it's very vague. I like the idea that you suggest of Craft or arts of hand and mind maybe being enhanced, but that would be through the power of the ring unlocking potential? 3 - I don't agree at all with some powers being given, like immunity to fire or breathing underwater. I see the elements as being symbolic, referencing the Silmarils and their place in the world. Galadriel with a longing to return over the sea (water), Elrond with his father overhead shining as a star (air), Gandalf 's entire purpose being to inspire hope in a world about to be plunged into war, kidling of hope (fire). I would look to the symbolism more than secret arts or gifts, yet we DO know that the rings aren't all equal, especially if one is mightiest and one is chief, perhaps there are more secrets there?
@@TheRedBook Gandalf does almost always know the right thing to say to turn despair into hope and courage renewed. I have always though that, more than the other Rings, Narya preserved its bearer rather than wherever Gandalf happened to be. I've wondered at times what would have become of Saruman and Orthanc if he had received the Ring of Fire. Could Isengard be the center for the resistance to the Shadow? A place for the champions of the Free People to recover, rearm, and receive council before heading back into the fray? Or, would Saruman lock it away in a closet with Isildur's stuff and continue to focus on himself rather than his mission?
@@beatleblev - Well, it's difficult to work out motivations for Saruman and the Ring of Fire when we know that Gandalf carrying the ring was a late addition to the text. This is why when we think of why Saruman didn't take the ring from Gandafl it can be a bit questionable. Yet, if we just plainly look at the text, he didn't take it from Gandalf, and perhaps didn't attempt to take it. If we are talking about natural enhancement through rings of power, its entirely possible that Saruman would be incredibly dangerous having the Ring of Fire in his possession. That voice, coupled with that ring. Can only imagine how persuasive he would be with it. I can't see Saruman not using it or just keeping it as a treasure with his other stolen treasures. I see him using it and probably not in the way it was intended to be used.
what is power? what is magic? the rings were magical, made with secret knowledge Sauron gifted the elves. Magic is the ability to turn thoughts, feeling and wishes into reality. the rings, i believe, are concentrated wishes focused on a physical object through spiritual power/energy. the same way the one ring made the bearer more like sauron, the three imbued their users with a bit of the spirit Celembrimbor made them with. on the second point. is perhaps magic a mere ilusion? or did they actually have the power to stop or slow time? perhaps their conservation power is only one that allows one to keep the memories of a time long pass. Perhaps Rivendel and lothlorien simply seem to be special to the eyes of our young and little travelled hobbits.
Tolkien always had that very subtle magic style, from what I’ve dug up the three’s purpose and the promise of Sauron at the time was to heal the land, Cemlibrimbor wanted tools to halt the decay and heal the damage from the war with Morgoth, and if you look at how Rivendell and Lothlorien were explained the nature of their power is the healing of the land and a power to keep timeless their realms, or the decay left in the land by Morgoth would have made them like say, the once Greenwood, Mirkwood, where the elves had no ring to stave it off. It’s not a power to dominate or control or gain for the wearer to be more effective in a fight, though clearly it could help lol, Elrond led the First Alliance as general in the first fight against Sauron so it has some power to help their army, protect life, but not overtly offensive in their nature because their purpose is to help life to thrive and protect from corruption of the dark power, just my thought - awesome convo!
Exactly. The idea that power should be used to rule: this is the ideology of Tolkien’s villains. In the design of Eru, power is to be used in service to others: and in particular, in the service of those wiser than oneself. As we see from Maedhros’ words to Fingolfin, wisdom is the chief quality a ruler should have: not power. Fingolfin’s challenge to Melkor even calls him out on getting this backwards. He calls Melkor “wielder of thralls”. This is an insult, the harshest one he can think of: but the way that most people in the real world think this sounds like a complement. Until you understand the context. Thousands of elves willingly followed Fingolfin out of *literal paradise* and across the Helcaraxë where many died and many more suffered. They followed him into lands they didn’t know anything about under what they thought would be perpetual darkness: knowing only that in those lands was the evil which had just destroyed their home and killed their king. He did not force anyone to come, nor did he force anyone to continue the journey. He could not have done so. When Fingolfin arrived in Middle Earth, a King willingly abdicated in his favor: and in perhaps the most loving way possible. Fingolfin never told anyone to bow, never asked for power, never sought it or flaunted it. No one even realized how powerful he had become until the moment when he rode out to certain death across Anfauglith, and they mistook him for Oromë. Fingolfin was empowered by his vassals, who willingly followed him and served him out of love. He did not need to spend his power to keep their loyalty. Morgoth did. Fingolfin could have simply refused to answer a challenge from Morgoth: but Morgoth could not refuse to answer his challenge. Fingolfin is none too delicately pointing out that Morgoth does not have as much power as he claims he has: that his servants have a lot of leverage over him because he has mistreated them. That rule through fear is inherently unstable and liable to be overthrown. But a king who is beloved, will never be usurped.
Vilya, the ring of air, with a blue stone, made of gold Nenya, the ring of water, with a white stone, made of mithril Narya, the ring of fire, with a red stone, metal unknown. A minor inconsistency: Valmar of many bells, the city of the Valar in Valinor, is called 'Valimar' later on in the same book. Here's a good plot hole: the one Silmaril that was taken from Morgoth's iron crown was reworked into a fabulous necklace called the Nauglamir. Thus was Elu Thingol and the kingdom of Doriath ensnared in the doom of the Noldor. What happened to the Nauglamir? It seems to just vanish. Earendil wears the Silmaril upon his brow as he sails into the uttermost west to plead the cause of Elves and Men against Morgoth. No mention is ever made of the fate of the fabulous necklace.
Great video and I don't think this is an inconsistency. Like you said, the leader of a group needn't be its strongest member and being the strongest member doesn't necessarily mean leadership.
Usually authority comes from power, whether one's own or from another as a promise or agreement. That's how a governor can give an order and the state's powers ie government agencies with the power carry it out.
Good stuff. It reminds me of descriptions of the Knights of the Round Table, because you get various superlatives applied to each one, and at first glance they might seem contradictory but if you dig into the meanings (as of course Tolkien would) they actually aren’t.
Proud to be an engaged subscriber since your 5th upload, and thanks again to Geekzone for listing your channel on his. Can't believe that one of the first things I posted was comparing your accent to Inspector Campbell's one 🤣 I love all English accents but the Northern ones in particular it seems. Good thing though that you include subtitles, there is usually just 1-2 words per video I don't understand but compulsively interested as I am I want to understand every single one of them.
Haha was that you? I know we talk on most videos but I forgot who it was who said I sounded like that 😂. Yeah I've had a few people say I'm too quiet and stuff as well, but I try to just sound as natural as I can. Well natural at reading a script! I love talking Tolkien though. I don't want to upload then pretend to engage and move on to the next video. I like the comments and discussions!
@@TheRedBook Ah no, you don't sound to quiet to me! The only time I would not immediately understand a word is if it is short, unexpected and with vowel sounds that are typical for these Northern accents. Yup, that was me. Before posting it I had the feeling that I would be wrong but really I had his voice present and I had not heard enough Scottish to properly identify it.
As a veteran, often the mightiest of our ranks were not the chief. Strength does not equate to good leadership. To a hammer, everything is treated like a nail.
Thanks! And yeah, it sucks but I don't know if that's a good count after just under 3 months? I thought I'd have more by now 😂. Maybe because I don't spam my content everywhere or beg for subscribers? I was hoping people would just like the videos and it would build from there.
Another interpretation may come from the roles each of the Three performed. Vilya preserved and healed the spirit and the memory of the First Age, and it was in Rivendel, where it resided with Elrond, that all the knowledge, memory and remembrance of the First Age were most apparent. Nenya preserved and healed the material aspect of the First Age. If Rivendel was the place where the memories of it felt the strongest, Lothlorien was the place where the that age lived the strongest. Trees grew tallest and didn't age, and all manner of species that were no longer found in Middle Earth, were still found there. Vilya stopped time, by keeping the memories of the past alive, Nenya stopped time by keeping the past alive. As such, one can argue that if the role of the spirit is greater then the role of the body, then Vilya is the mightier of the two. However, as the body is the anchor for the spirit in this world, then Nenya is the chief. Any way we think about this, that leaved Narya at the bottom of the hierarchy, as its domain was bound to the preservation of hope and courage and did the least to stop the advance of time, except for the wearer itself, for whom it provided elevation of world weariness and fatigue.
throught Unfinished Tales or somewhere else in Tolkien´s legendarium, there were hints that Nenya was always ever meant to be wear by Galadriel alone, since Celebrimboor gave it to her even before giving the other rings to Gil-Galaad (who later gave Narya to Cirdan with Celebrimboor acceptance on his choice too), and all this was done around the same time or even slightly earlier than when Sauron made the One Ring himself. So the idea about Galadriel being the actual cheif of the Noldor gives back some reference on how devotely Celebrimboor was toward his aunt, pretty much mirroring the same situation on how the Silmarills were done by Feänor by his niece inspiration too, just being different about that he was able to give back in return that same devote admiration for her in a better way than his grandfather did. Vilya later being the mightiest was given for aiding the help on the High King of Noldor, Gil-Galaad, too, but his position was mostly a shared appointment by Galadriel actually not wanting to held power on herself alone, as she actually should have had earlier precedence over him, as she was closer to his family origins than Gil-Galaad himself, but as then only males could lead then - the position was shared on the Rings by that way on the Sapphire-one, and continued the same way, later on as Gil-Galaad passed it to Elrond as a safe-keeper if he passed away too.
yes it seems the idea rellies that Elrond´s ring was the main supporter or active frontal force to stand against the foes or evil forces, but still the leading power behind their frontal defensive was Galadriel´s one all time. It´s somewhat as the dynamic on Varda and Manwe, where the latter is the mightiest and frontal leader of the Valar and Eru´s power, however the actual real power is hidden besides him at the figure of Varda who shared her power to him, and was more hated and feared than Manwe by Melkor himself. This dynamic is repeated on the rings of power and their respective wearers, as eventhough Elrond does a straightforward offensive-defensive support against evil, it´s all along with Galadriel power to put the end to all as it actually happened on Dol-Guldur eventually.
Really liked this one! Great music and art choice! I agree, “Mightiest” and “Chief” aren’t necessarily the same …it’s like saying Boromir was a mighty man (which is very true) but that doesn’t really equate to him being the wisest or bravest of the fellowship. Great Vid 💍
Awesome deep dive, the mightiest may not always be the lead, but instead be the support for the leadership. Tolkien always said as well that in the third age the Skalds and scholarship knew only the legend and lore among men, only elves who became reclusive with time knew the truth of the history of middle earth, so seeming inconsistent info between writings can be seen as different ages recollections about the same events and truth is a interpretation rather in his writings so there is room for multiple telling if a person is in a later age. Awesome deep dive, love the channel!
Have you ever considered this to be a mistake on Tolkien's part? Can you think of any other "inconsistencies" or "plot holes" that you would like to see discussed? What do you think about the mysterious Three Rings and what would make one mightier than the other? Share your thoughts!
Thanks for the video. So far, the only story element I would not call an inconsistency but a weak point (because it feels like a forced literary decision) is the fact that Sauron in spirit form was able to save the ring from apocalyptic waves and currents and carry it over the sea. Also, it still seems somewhat odd to me that Glorfindel apparently did hardly play a part in the War of the Ring after saving Frodo, he should have joined the Grey Company. Would have loved to hear him ponder about Minas Tirith and its architectural parallels to Gondolin.
@@Crafty_Spirit both are great points actually. Both are often brought up and some even refuse to accept the Sauron one! I'm sure I'll discuss the Sauron one naturally in other Numenor related videos but the Glorfindel one definitely could be a speculative video. Why was he in Middle-earth, that kind of thing...
Hi Steven! Fantastic, as usual. I was wondering if you'd ever be interested in covering the development of Galadriel and the perhaps superficial inconsistency with Tolkien equating her level of "power" as being the, or almost the, equivalent of Fëanor's and this, as well as Tolkien's explicit statement of the following being fact, making her the second most "powerful" of all the Eldar? Also, what examples in the texts might support/foreshadow these much later developments.
@@lauraheffner5342 hello! That would definitely be a good video. I have an idea about Galadriel in relation to her exile, which covers some of the development of her character. I'll take this comment on board though and see what can be done!
The way I understand it, Nenya is the Chief because it is the most powerful. It is the only ring made of mithril, and it preserves Lothlórien much better than Vilya preserves Rivendell. Vilya is called mightiest because, as I see it, it can be used as a weapon whereas Nenya cannot. I believe Vilya was used to take out the Nazgul during the chase.
Elrond says none of the three were made as weapons of war. Vilya protected Imladris but I'm sure Nenya would protect Lothlorien too. In fact, it did when it was assaulted.
@@TheRedBook, I'm sure war wasn't it's main purpose. But I'm under the impression, based on the very little evidence there is, that Vilya is more able to interact with and affect physical matter whereas Nenya is more of a spiritual artifact. I have trouble seeing Vilya as more powerful than Nenya because, other than it being called "mightiest" once, all other evidence points to Nenya being greater overall. Starting from it being made of superior materials (diamond and mithril, as opposed to sapphire and gold) and being called "Chief", it was also the first ring to be given away by Celebrimbor, and Frodo specifically remarks that the magic in Lothlórien seems far more powerful than in Rivendell. I know people can argue that's because Galadriel is more powerful than Elrond, but I think the ring is the main responsible for the difference because the "magic" that Frodo notices is literally just the ring doing what it was meant to do, which is something that Galadriel on her own cannot do.
it also involves the nature of the stones at the center of the Rings: diamonds are the sky stones as stars, as the only remaining Simlarill in mirror that mightyness and the hardests gems also. Sapphiire and ruby of the other two rings come closer in second place after the Diamond, and as equal polar opposites of the power behind their leader of Diamond. The Sapphire has some slight higher power as representative on Water against the Ruby/Fire ring. So the higher spiritual power relies with the clear Diamond of Heaven, then the raw material world is hold along Water Balance of the Sapphire ring, and finally a fiery passionate but positive lower-spirituality commitment got on the Rudy one.
I wonder what the Valar do all day during the second and third ages? Just sit around on their thrones being glorious? They don't seem to answer prayers unless you sail to the Undying lands and appeal directly.
They aren't supposed to answer prayers in that way. Their role should be diminished as the world settles. I do have a video about their role after Morgoth’s fall. Its called. Of the Valar in Middle-earth.
I think Nenya was considered the "Chief" of the three rings of power because the three rings were intimately linked with one another and ultimately the one ring. It allowed Galadriel to know the thoughts of the other ring bearers and communicate with them across vast distances. I don't remember Elrond being able to communicate with Gandalf but there are several instances of Galadriel being able to communicate with the other ring bearers and actually being able to control their actions such as when Frodo fought off Shelob and said words unknown to him. It seems she had the power to know others thoughts when she was close to them but this may have already been an inherent power. It is similar to the master stone of the palantiri. Not necessarily more powerful but the other stones were linked to it. Nenya was the chief of the three rings but the one ring still had the power to corrupt all the rings.
I have this headcanon that the Three were made to represent the three great Noldor houses. Fire for Feanor (whom has been linked to fire, from his naming to his manner of how his hroa departed from the world), air for Fingolfin and his family's affinity for the skies (how Manwe's eagles seem to love helping his descendants and of course, Earendil the star) and water for Finarfin (and his kinship to Aqualonde). As such, Finarfin also happens to be the king of the Noldor in Valinor (or if you subscribe to idea of Gil-Galad being of the house of Finarfin as the son of Orodreth so through him his house is also the ruling one in Middle Earth), hence, the ring that is meant to symbolize him and his house is chief to the Three while it is Fingolfin's descendants who continues to do the mightiest deeds in Middle Earth. This is such a weak explanation but this HC is still something I'm quite fond of. 😂
It's probably that many of the things that come in threes are all tied together - Rings, Silmarils, Houses - can seem to link them all to fire, water, air.
The main motivation behind the elves' making of the rings of power is clearly stated in letter 131 and is also mentioned at the beginning of the video. However, in Unfinished Tales it is mentioned that Celebrimbor made the Three with a different power and purpose than the Nine and Seven. Now, when I evaluate these two sources together, I feel like there is a contradiction. Doesn't the difference between the Three and the others in terms of the purpose of construction indicate a difference in this motivation? Since Celebrimbor made the Three for a different purpose than the others, "to preservation, understanding, making and healing" as per the motivation expressed in letter 131, doesn't it show that the Nine and the Seven were also made for a different purpose than the Three? If so, wouldn't this create a conflict in terms of compatibility with the main motivation? I can't get this into my mind.
Totally agree with your explanation. Sauron was actually right. Frodo failed to toss the ring into the fire. It took an act of Eru Iluvatar to destroy the ring in Orodruin.
My ever expanding list of future videos is going to cover this point. You may disagree with my conclusion in it but I definitely want to talk about Eru's involvement in affairs and what it means.
@@TheRedBook I feel like the ending of the One Ring is the best guide to Eru’s methods and plans, and the way Eru prefers to take action in the world. When Eru acts directly against evil in the world, as when the Valar call upon him, the results are overwhelming and destructive. But in the Ainulindale, all Melkor’s music is ultimately turned in on itself and to Eru’s purpose, providing its own defeat and unwittingly becoming part of the great harmony, just as The Ring ultimately destroys itself through its own nature and actions via the damage it had done to Gollum. This is why the Dagor Dagorath has never resonated with me and why I’m glad Tolkien abandoned it. There must be a better answer to the problem of evil than a dead guy running it through with a magic sword.
I think mightiest of the 3 refers to how the ring is used. Here's my opinion: Galadriel's ring was capable of protecting all of Lothlorian by hiding the Elves from the rest of the world. Kinda like an invisible shroud. It was also responsible for the realms' beauty as far as growing things (trees, flowers, etc). -it was said that once the One ring was destroyed, all 3 rings lost their power. Lothlorian ended up rotting away after Galadriels ring lost its power. - considering how it protected Lothlorian and how long it had I'd say it was the Chief of the 3. -2nd most powerful would be the Elven Ship Lords (cant remember his name) ring. Which he gave to Gandalf before sailing to the undying lands - Gandalf's ring had the power to bolster men's hearts and give them courage whenever it was around. And Gandalf used it throughout the War of the Ring. Especially while in Rohan and while defending Gondor. Elronds ring is 3rd. Mostly because I can't remember if it does anything. AM I WRONG?
It's the thing sometime with us humans, we assume that the strongest must be the leader, we assume that power is equal to authority. But might and leadership are two different things.
A driver has authority over his car. When it comes to pushing things forward, a car is quite a lot mightier than a human. The question is: what do you measure? Do you measure the same things?
there is some underlying common gentlemann saying then about "ladies never ever finishing troubles but knew how to finish them" so Nenya being the ring of Galadriel indeed was the cheif one, wereas Elrond´s one (and formerly from Gil-Galaad too) was just the one doing the frontal stand-up of conflicts. All rings were important anyway, also Narya´s role just couldn´t be overlooked either as complementary essential of the work.
I am not sure if this is an inconsistency, but if we accept Tolkien's own definition of "canon" - "Has this appeared in print?" - can we suppose that Galadriel's line about Celeborn "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn" in The Mirror of Galadriel can actually be interpreted as proof that Celeborn was a Telerin Elf of Aman? Could Tolkien have overlooked this? It's some time since I read their history in Unfinished Tales and I don't remember exactly if Tolkien ever mentions why he changed Celeborn's ancestry there.
I wouldn't count on it, especially with so many changes and a lack of a final thought before Tolkien's death. Celeborn, sadly, exists as an unfinished character it seems. Early versions have him speaking Telerian as a native language, and it makes him a wood-elf in early versions. Then it changes to him being a Grey-elf, then in LotR he is a kinsman of Thingol. His ancestry is left unspoken, be that Sindar or Teleri. The Silmarillion saying he had been a prince of Doriath. Tolkien does say about 15 years after these early versions that Celeborn was a Grey Elf. It's these "alternate version" in UT that make him a Teler. It's ... messy.
Thank you for the info! Does Celeborn appear anywhere in HoME? I have a vague recollection he does but I can't seem to find him anywhere in the indexes, either as Celeborn, Keleborn or Teleporno. But then I was convinced the hint of Earendil slaying Ungoliant was in the Lost Tales, when it actually was in The Shaping of Middle-Earth. Do you think this could be good stuff for your Tolkien Archive series? ;)
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 Oh yeah, he makes an appearance in quite a few volumes. A couple with some brief mentions due to the path of the Fellowship, but others in a bit more detail. His name is mentioned in the Lost Road and other writings, but its speaking of a tree. Another tree of silver mention in Morgoth's Ring but a brief mention that he fought to defend Alqualonde with Galadriel against the Noldor - one of Tolkien's many sainthood of Galadriel changes, but one implying he was in Valinor. Sam mentions him in the epilogue to Lord of the Rings found in Sauron's Defeat. His first appearance is shown in The Treason of Isengard with the names Tar and Finduilas struck out with Aran and Rhien following. Then a bit of family tree stuff in The War of the Jewels - some confusion about Nimloth perhaps being the niece of Celeborn and some other interesting bits. I think the Archive series could probably have a decent length video about Celeborn!
@@TheRedBook Good question! Not sure I'm versed enough to make an answer yet, but I'll work on it! That's the fun part of discussing complicated ideas online, maybe: the fact that everyone comes from a different starting point in how much they're aware of the story. I'd like to say that negativity was already present before the rings were made, and that their forging only accelerated its intensity and scope, but I'm not quite sure this is true (not sure if Morgoth [Sauron's master] had appeared yet), so ultimately I'll have to come back to this later!
»Seldom have we had such delight in strangers, and it is fair to hear words of the Ancient Speech from the lips of other wanderers in the world.« Tolkien evoked, what was my first literary homeland. I only heard some of your essays, but you already uncovered some of my half forgotten roots. Thank you for that. Down in the comments, you speak about the plan to set straight the all to modern powerlevel logic, i.e. how it does not work in regard to living mythos. I want to encourage you to deal with this topic. It is an ugly thing in our times and we have to remember each other from time to time, that it holds no truth.
Professor Corey Olsen brought up one part he considered a "plot hole" he started by saying 99% of the so called plot holes people bring up are not inconsistencies. When Sauron was a prisoner in Numenor and it was sunk and destroyed he apparently didn't have the one ring on his person or it would've fell to the bottom of the ocean when he lost his physical body. He went to say that according to some Tolkien notes, Sauron didn't bring it with him when he was captured, so it seems inconsistent with Sauron's character to depart without his ring, he treasured it over everything else, he wouldn't have left it for decades somewhere while he was corrupting Numenor. This would be a great topic as I can think of a few scenarios of why the ring was left behind that don't seem so egregious in my opinion. Thanks and have a great day.
This is one I will cover but Tolkien clearly states in Letter 211 that Sauron carried the ring with him as a spirit after the Downfall. His power of domination largely "depended on it" as Tolkien says, so we shouldn't find it confusing that he could carry it off as a spirit. Tolkien also says in the same letter that Sauron "naturally had the One Ring" and it helped him dominate the minds of the Númenóreans. There is only one part that confuses people about where the ring and that is when The Silmarillion says that Sauron "took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr" when he returned to Middle-earth. But I will happily cover this as one of the "inconsistencies" at some point!
Not a mistake. Like with Manwe and Melkor. Melkor was most powerful and even called "mightiest" but Manwe was chief and king of Valar because of his allegience, purity, and loyalty to Eru are of the highest quality. Elrond's ring could have more bulk power but Galadriel's could be more controllable and most able to act in tune with it's master, and therefore able to hold its domain in the most harmony. That domain would doubtless grow more prosperous and would be seen as the greater kingdom. Its possible that Gil Galad received the rings before Celebrimbor could fully explain their intimate details and he gave Galadriel the ring he should have kept himself. Or even he knew it and gave her that ring on purpose knowing that she was now the eldest and most powerful of all their kindred and he wanted her to have that to complement her nature.
Maybe we could get some more history on where the rings went so after they were mthere they were made who was in possession of them and where did they go at least mentioned
Do you mean a history of the rings? I could do that if there's something interesting I could add to the discussion. Maybe when Tolkien introduced them, or how different versions of text have the rings with different people, etc.
@@TheRedBook Right, exactly. I know for certain that Gil Galad had one, and I'm pretty sure he gave it to Elrond. So, a history from the moment they were forged and who took them, lost them, etc. Just like the One ring: we have a clear history of that ring.
@@geschaftsmanngeschaftsmann6891 - Yes, there is one point of contention with the Red Ring because of two different texts speaking of when it was handed over but... Celebrimbor held all three at one point. Nenya was given to Galadriel and she kept it the entire timeline after. Vilya went to Gil-galad and he gave it to Elrond. Gil-galad also received Narya, giving it to Cirdan, who then held it without using it until Gandalf arrived over the sea. A video could be useful with dates, etc.
@@TheRedBook Excellent! That fits nicely with those who were present in the Council of Elrond! I'm amazed, but not surprised. Yes, Cirdan would be a worthy keeper. Righto, it's definitely an idea. Yes, it is kinda redundant, but redundancy can be good for the sake of the channel? Maybe some dialog between Cirdan and Celebrimbor, Cirdan and Gandalf, etc...even if only imagined what they would've discussed? Thanks for providing this knowledge, it's definitely helpful in seeing the entire story.
Another reason why Nenya might be chief of the three may be due to the fact that Celebrimbor apparently loved Galadrial, and, though that love wasn't reciprocated, he may have considered it the chief of the Three as a sign of his regard for her.
I prefer your theory that Vilya was greatest because as the first Celebrimbor forged, it was dearest to him. It was the first manifestation of what the elves sought with The Rings Of Power, the first template made into a feasible artefact. Then, Nenya was the most powerful because it was the third and last one, one he had perfected the smithing process. Sounds the best to me…
@@TheRedBook Yeah, I meant the opposite! The theory that makes most sense to me is that Nenya is “chief” of the 3 as the first one, while Vilya is most powerful as the last one.
@@MistaGify - That does make sense to me as well but if it came out that the chief ring was the one he made last and put some monumental effort into finishing his work, then I'd accept that and understand it.
@@TheRedBook That doesn’t make sense because if the chief ring was the last one, with the most monumental effort put into it, then that ring would be the chief AND mightiest ring. Instead, 1 ring is chief and another is mightiest. I believe my theory is more watertight.
@@MistaGify - I don't necessarily agree because might ≠ authority. He could have made two rings, with one of them possibly with a more direct purpose that effects the physical world, he then makes a third ring to bind them all together, or perhaps have a part of the other two as well as its own gifts, making it the authority but NOT the mightiest. I could quite easily believe it was the last to be made but also the first for the reasons you stated. We will never know!
Nenya's role was to bind the other two rings to itself and to make all three repellent of the "Morgoth ingredient." Vilya is the source of power enhancement, so it's the "mightiest." Since fire is more corrupted than air and water, Narya is kept in check Vilya and Nenya.
Yes, I really want to do a video on that. I was going to call it "How powerful is ?" and just talk about how power doesn't work in Tolkien the way people like that think...
@@TheRedBook I mean there's even LotR channels that can be bad about it. Like how powerful is Gandalf the Grey vs White vs Pre Istari, and they'll put these versions essentially on a bar graph, which is absurd. I think it's just easier for most people to oversimplify it that way instead of taking the time to delve into the inner workings of how Tolkien's world is structured.
Oh yeah, not all channels are created equal. A lot are purely movie focused and I'm guessing they talk in that way more than others? It seems to be popular though. Probably a product of superhero obsessed viewers? Seems crazy to me to constantly talk about hypothetical power battles ...
@@TheRedBook Well you seemed to have found a format that fills a niche that has been difficult (at least for me) to find. You reference rewritten material and you address details that many of the larger channels typically brush aside or gloss over. Your video about Gandalf being misunderstood by Sauron was a very solid breakdown. I've noticed your subscriber numbers being on the rise and it's impressive that you've managed to find an opening in what is a very saturated topic on UA-cam. Your channel may not appeal to the movie watchers necessarily, but I think you're on the right path here. So let me offer some encouragement and just say, well done.
@@cherub3624 It's appreciated. Always appreciate the support. A lot of channels cover the 'lore', the characters, the stories, but there was definitely some analysis missing from UA-cam. I don't really know what a lot of channels think about the content because most don't share thoughts on it - just the information and anyone who has read Tolkien over and over for years will already know it. It was one reason I wanted to start a channel. I also wanted it to be a Tolkien channel and not one that mixes in adaptation stuff all the time or always compares the text to it.
Chief Ring versus mighty Ring it's all about symbolism the chief ring is the symbolic ring worn by galadriel who had lived in in the undying lands and her father was son of one of the three great Kings of elves and Finarfin was the last great king of the Noldor.... And she was his daughter so obviously she's going to have what you would call more Station or social clout and since she has more Clout, Influence the ring Nenya was chief of the rings only in that it represented her clout this is very easy to understand what is meant by this and Elron who is male and younger is going to have more might and Power so the ring Vilya is going to fit him better obviously because he has less clout less station than her.... Just like if you brought in Finarfin he is going to have more clout than his daughter he is going to have greater station and even more so than him Ingwe or Olwe so that if one of those wore Venua the clout or station or the chiefness would be even greater than galadriel........ I don't understand what the confusion would be on this interpretation it's very clear to me...... But just because Celebrimbor(I know it's spelled wrong but my apologies) loved galadriel does not mean that it has more powers it just means that he held it in greater value and that's all it means...... I would say that the second most powerful is gandalf's ring in for the life of me I can't remember it that true name of it it's on the edge of my mind and it's late..... But as a Maia in the flesh form he would need the Ring of fire Vilya and the Firestone had to have more power because they would be in direct conflict with the enemy whereas Nenya was more of a subtle and protective and cleansing type ring that was still very powerful but it was more of a subtle indirect power that had a repelling power of evil which worked better for galadriel anyway since she was more of a magic user than gandalf or elron.....
Melkor was 'mightiest' until he was no longer considered a part of them but Tolkien tends to use the words 'strength' and 'strongest' with Tulkas. Funnily enough, when a lot of readers discuss "power" they tend to just mean characters bashing fists against each other - which should mean Tulkas appeals to them since he's strongest but certainly not wisest or "most powerful".
Seeing this as an inconsistentcy is just "power levels brainrot". Like which ring has a bigger number. Simply saying: captain of a sports team is not automatically the best player on the team.
I can easily see that Nenya was dearest to Celebrimbor as in some texts (sorry, forgot where) it is said that he was in love with Galadriel, so entrusting her Nenya was also a sign of affection. (I feel for him - unrequited love can be one of the most harrowing experiences in life, how must that be if you are supposed to live for millenia). I think it's plausible that he made some considerations as to give which ring to its future bearer.
This is one of the consequences of the many versions of Galadriel that Tolkien developed over the years. The text you speak of is in Unfinished Tales, specifically an older version of the text in "Galadriel and Celeborn" where Celebrimbor loves Galadriel but she turns to "Celeborn of the Trees". There's even two versions of Galadriel obtaining Nenya. So, her history is quite complex and has many traditions.
Isn't Galadriel his Great Aunt? And didn't Tolkien say the Elves are unaccustomed to such Strange incestuous behavior?
@@curtislangford3181 The background stories of Celebrimbor and Galadriel and their kinship changed through several writings, you are referring to the Silmarillion version. They were seemingly not closely related in Unfinished Tales, and Tolkien did not finish the story of either one.
About the three:
1. Do we ever see the Three in immediate action or only their long term effects? Does Vilya assist Elrond with the flooding of the Bruinen and assist with Frodo's healing, or is that all Elrond? Does Narya help Gandalf the Grey survive the dark fire of the Durin's Bane? Does it assist Gandalf the White reverse the leechcraft of Wormtongue or is that Gandalf alone? We can see the work of the Two in the timeless atmosphere and beauty of Rivendell and Lorien and this is the primary purpose and power of the Three. Otherwise we are never told when they are actively in use.
2. What are the other powers of the Three? We know that the original Rings of Power enhanced the abilities of the wearer, but not what that entailed. If you are a smith does it make smithing easier? If you are capable of Craft or the Arts of hand and mind, are those abilities enhanced and if so, how much? The appearance of magic or supernatural power in Tolkien's works is often accompanied by, "it seemed" and "as if" as Tolkien preserves the mystery of magic in his Legendarium. To further complicate the matter, it may be that the powers of the Three change to fit the hand that they grace.
3. Nenya, Narya, and Vilya are also referred to as the Rings of Water, Fire, and Air respectively. Is this association merely an homage to the Silmarils and largely symbolic, or does it imply additional powers imbued into the Three by Celebrimbor? In Art theory, healing is often associated with the color blue (Vilya), and with the element of water (Nenya) so, it makes sense that healing powers would be part of the repertoire of those rings. Other power questions off the top of my head include: Does Gandalf get a +10 on those off stage fireballs in Moria? Is he immune to fire while wearing Narya? Can Galadriel breathe underwater? Does Elrond need to breathe at all with Vilya on his finger, or are the powers of the Three more subtle and less vulgar? You can know a lot about a given thing in the Legendarium and still have so many questions. And, that is just one more reflection of the genius of Tolkien and why I am endlessly in love with and fascinated by his mythology.
1 - I think that's the point with the three. We are talking about "active" use but they are both passive and active. Elrond and Galadriel maintaining their realms as you say. Though, I DO believe that the attack of the flood at the Ford was due to the authority of Elrond and the ring he held. That's what I think, and I see it as a defence of the realm from the invasion of the evil of the Ringwraiths. They did not have the authority of the Lord of Imladris and they were punished. Just like invaders of Lothlorien would suffer under Galadriel.
As a natural healer, I also like to think the ring held by Elrond would benefit him in that regard. We know they are rings of healing too, enhancing the natural spirit and "power" of the bearer. Why wouldn't it aid Elrond the healer? I don't think Narya helped Gandalf in any way against the Balrog, nor do I think it aided him dealing with Grima. I think with the latter it was the natural power of Gandalf the White, a far greater force of nature than the poisonous words of Grima.
2 - This is something I have had trouble getting to grips with as well. I tend to see it as enhancing the natural spirit of the bearer, but I wouldn't think it would make a swordsman a better swordsman, but it could perhaps make someone more convincing if they were already someone with a power of words. That kind of thing. Someone who holds a natural charisma and authority may seem even greater. That's how I see it, rather than some skill being enhanced. Though, it's very vague. I like the idea that you suggest of Craft or arts of hand and mind maybe being enhanced, but that would be through the power of the ring unlocking potential?
3 - I don't agree at all with some powers being given, like immunity to fire or breathing underwater. I see the elements as being symbolic, referencing the Silmarils and their place in the world. Galadriel with a longing to return over the sea (water), Elrond with his father overhead shining as a star (air), Gandalf 's entire purpose being to inspire hope in a world about to be plunged into war, kidling of hope (fire). I would look to the symbolism more than secret arts or gifts, yet we DO know that the rings aren't all equal, especially if one is mightiest and one is chief, perhaps there are more secrets there?
@@TheRedBook Gandalf does almost always know the right thing to say to turn despair into hope and courage renewed. I have always though that, more than the other Rings, Narya preserved its bearer rather than wherever Gandalf happened to be. I've wondered at times what would have become of Saruman and Orthanc if he had received the Ring of Fire. Could Isengard be the center for the resistance to the Shadow? A place for the champions of the Free People to recover, rearm, and receive council before heading back into the fray? Or, would Saruman lock it away in a closet with Isildur's stuff and continue to focus on himself rather than his mission?
@@beatleblev - Well, it's difficult to work out motivations for Saruman and the Ring of Fire when we know that Gandalf carrying the ring was a late addition to the text. This is why when we think of why Saruman didn't take the ring from Gandafl it can be a bit questionable.
Yet, if we just plainly look at the text, he didn't take it from Gandalf, and perhaps didn't attempt to take it. If we are talking about natural enhancement through rings of power, its entirely possible that Saruman would be incredibly dangerous having the Ring of Fire in his possession. That voice, coupled with that ring. Can only imagine how persuasive he would be with it. I can't see Saruman not using it or just keeping it as a treasure with his other stolen treasures. I see him using it and probably not in the way it was intended to be used.
what is power? what is magic?
the rings were magical, made with secret knowledge Sauron gifted the elves. Magic is the ability to turn thoughts, feeling and wishes into reality.
the rings, i believe, are concentrated wishes focused on a physical object through spiritual power/energy.
the same way the one ring made the bearer more like sauron, the three imbued their users with a bit of the spirit Celembrimbor made them with.
on the second point. is perhaps magic a mere ilusion? or did they actually have the power to stop or slow time? perhaps their conservation power is only one that allows one to keep the memories of a time long pass. Perhaps Rivendel and lothlorien simply seem to be special to the eyes of our young and little travelled hobbits.
Tolkien always had that very subtle magic style, from what I’ve dug up the three’s purpose and the promise of Sauron at the time was to heal the land, Cemlibrimbor wanted tools to halt the decay and heal the damage from the war with Morgoth, and if you look at how Rivendell and Lothlorien were explained the nature of their power is the healing of the land and a power to keep timeless their realms, or the decay left in the land by Morgoth would have made them like say, the once Greenwood, Mirkwood, where the elves had no ring to stave it off. It’s not a power to dominate or control or gain for the wearer to be more effective in a fight, though clearly it could help lol, Elrond led the First Alliance as general in the first fight against Sauron so it has some power to help their army, protect life, but not overtly offensive in their nature because their purpose is to help life to thrive and protect from corruption of the dark power, just my thought - awesome convo!
background music is great
I agree!
Hearing another worthy angle on Tolkien is always a pleasure. I feel you offer a distinguished analytical subtlety and nuance.
Thanks! The aim has always been to try and offer something different when it comes to Tolkien on UA-cam :D
Exactly.
The idea that power should be used to rule: this is the ideology of Tolkien’s villains. In the design of Eru, power is to be used in service to others: and in particular, in the service of those wiser than oneself. As we see from Maedhros’ words to Fingolfin, wisdom is the chief quality a ruler should have: not power. Fingolfin’s challenge to Melkor even calls him out on getting this backwards. He calls Melkor “wielder of thralls”. This is an insult, the harshest one he can think of: but the way that most people in the real world think this sounds like a complement. Until you understand the context. Thousands of elves willingly followed Fingolfin out of *literal paradise* and across the Helcaraxë where many died and many more suffered. They followed him into lands they didn’t know anything about under what they thought would be perpetual darkness: knowing only that in those lands was the evil which had just destroyed their home and killed their king. He did not force anyone to come, nor did he force anyone to continue the journey. He could not have done so. When Fingolfin arrived in Middle Earth, a King willingly abdicated in his favor: and in perhaps the most loving way possible. Fingolfin never told anyone to bow, never asked for power, never sought it or flaunted it. No one even realized how powerful he had become until the moment when he rode out to certain death across Anfauglith, and they mistook him for Oromë. Fingolfin was empowered by his vassals, who willingly followed him and served him out of love. He did not need to spend his power to keep their loyalty. Morgoth did. Fingolfin could have simply refused to answer a challenge from Morgoth: but Morgoth could not refuse to answer his challenge. Fingolfin is none too delicately pointing out that Morgoth does not have as much power as he claims he has: that his servants have a lot of leverage over him because he has mistreated them. That rule through fear is inherently unstable and liable to be overthrown. But a king who is beloved, will never be usurped.
The king would not be usurped by those that love him but by his enemies those that do not love him
@@stevemiller4494 Thats a lot of work if he is loved by most.
Vilya, the ring of air, with a blue stone, made of gold
Nenya, the ring of water, with a white stone, made of mithril
Narya, the ring of fire, with a red stone, metal unknown.
A minor inconsistency: Valmar of many bells, the city of the Valar in Valinor, is called 'Valimar' later on in the same book.
Here's a good plot hole: the one Silmaril that was taken from Morgoth's iron crown was reworked into a fabulous necklace called the Nauglamir. Thus was Elu Thingol and the kingdom of Doriath ensnared in the doom of the Noldor. What happened to the Nauglamir? It seems to just vanish. Earendil wears the Silmaril upon his brow as he sails into the uttermost west to plead the cause of Elves and Men against Morgoth. No mention is ever made of the fate of the fabulous necklace.
Nice! As you say, the subtleties of difference between might and importance/greatness are easily missed.
Subtle is the word I would also use. Power, Might, Greatness - not synonyms !
Great video and I don't think this is an inconsistency. Like you said, the leader of a group needn't be its strongest member and being the strongest member doesn't necessarily mean leadership.
Usually authority comes from power, whether one's own or from another as a promise or agreement. That's how a governor can give an order and the state's powers ie government agencies with the power carry it out.
Just want to say this channel is incredibly insightful. Beautiful work!
Good stuff. It reminds me of descriptions of the Knights of the Round Table, because you get various superlatives applied to each one, and at first glance they might seem contradictory but if you dig into the meanings (as of course Tolkien would) they actually aren’t.
Proud to be an engaged subscriber since your 5th upload, and thanks again to Geekzone for listing your channel on his. Can't believe that one of the first things I posted was comparing your accent to Inspector Campbell's one 🤣 I love all English accents but the Northern ones in particular it seems. Good thing though that you include subtitles, there is usually just 1-2 words per video I don't understand but compulsively interested as I am I want to understand every single one of them.
Haha was that you? I know we talk on most videos but I forgot who it was who said I sounded like that 😂. Yeah I've had a few people say I'm too quiet and stuff as well, but I try to just sound as natural as I can. Well natural at reading a script!
I love talking Tolkien though. I don't want to upload then pretend to engage and move on to the next video. I like the comments and discussions!
@@TheRedBook Ah no, you don't sound to quiet to me! The only time I would not immediately understand a word is if it is short, unexpected and with vowel sounds that are typical for these Northern accents.
Yup, that was me. Before posting it I had the feeling that I would be wrong but really I had his voice present and I had not heard enough Scottish to properly identify it.
Great point with Melkor and Manwe!
As a veteran, often the mightiest of our ranks were not the chief. Strength does not equate to good leadership. To a hammer, everything is treated like a nail.
Great video Mellon, can’t believe you only have 721 subscribers.
Thanks! And yeah, it sucks but I don't know if that's a good count after just under 3 months? I thought I'd have more by now 😂. Maybe because I don't spam my content everywhere or beg for subscribers? I was hoping people would just like the videos and it would build from there.
@@TheRedBook Mellon you deserve more subs, your content is really good
Another interpretation may come from the roles each of the Three performed. Vilya preserved and healed the spirit and the memory of the First Age, and it was in Rivendel, where it resided with Elrond, that all the knowledge, memory and remembrance of the First Age were most apparent. Nenya preserved and healed the material aspect of the First Age. If Rivendel was the place where the memories of it felt the strongest, Lothlorien was the place where the that age lived the strongest. Trees grew tallest and didn't age, and all manner of species that were no longer found in Middle Earth, were still found there. Vilya stopped time, by keeping the memories of the past alive, Nenya stopped time by keeping the past alive. As such, one can argue that if the role of the spirit is greater then the role of the body, then Vilya is the mightier of the two. However, as the body is the anchor for the spirit in this world, then Nenya is the chief. Any way we think about this, that leaved Narya at the bottom of the hierarchy, as its domain was bound to the preservation of hope and courage and did the least to stop the advance of time, except for the wearer itself, for whom it provided elevation of world weariness and fatigue.
throught Unfinished Tales or somewhere else in Tolkien´s legendarium, there were hints that Nenya was always ever meant to be wear by Galadriel alone, since Celebrimboor gave it to her even before giving the other rings to Gil-Galaad (who later gave Narya to Cirdan with Celebrimboor acceptance on his choice too), and all this was done around the same time or even slightly earlier than when Sauron made the One Ring himself. So the idea about Galadriel being the actual cheif of the Noldor gives back some reference on how devotely Celebrimboor was toward his aunt, pretty much mirroring the same situation on how the Silmarills were done by Feänor by his niece inspiration too, just being different about that he was able to give back in return that same devote admiration for her in a better way than his grandfather did.
Vilya later being the mightiest was given for aiding the help on the High King of Noldor, Gil-Galaad, too, but his position was mostly a shared appointment by Galadriel actually not wanting to held power on herself alone, as she actually should have had earlier precedence over him, as she was closer to his family origins than Gil-Galaad himself, but as then only males could lead then - the position was shared on the Rings by that way on the Sapphire-one, and continued the same way, later on as Gil-Galaad passed it to Elrond as a safe-keeper if he passed away too.
yes it seems the idea rellies that Elrond´s ring was the main supporter or active frontal force to stand against the foes or evil forces, but still the leading power behind their frontal defensive was Galadriel´s one all time. It´s somewhat as the dynamic on Varda and Manwe, where the latter is the mightiest and frontal leader of the Valar and Eru´s power, however the actual real power is hidden besides him at the figure of Varda who shared her power to him, and was more hated and feared than Manwe by Melkor himself. This dynamic is repeated on the rings of power and their respective wearers, as eventhough Elrond does a straightforward offensive-defensive support against evil, it´s all along with Galadriel power to put the end to all as it actually happened on Dol-Guldur eventually.
Very nice channel bro, keep going!
Appreciate it!
Really liked this one! Great music and art choice! I agree, “Mightiest” and “Chief” aren’t necessarily the same …it’s like saying Boromir was a mighty man (which is very true) but that doesn’t really equate to him being the wisest or bravest of the fellowship. Great Vid 💍
Exactly, the brothers are a good example. I'd say Boromir was mightier but Faramir was wiser ... a big difference!
Awesome deep dive, the mightiest may not always be the lead, but instead be the support for the leadership. Tolkien always said as well that in the third age the Skalds and scholarship knew only the legend and lore among men, only elves who became reclusive with time knew the truth of the history of middle earth, so seeming inconsistent info between writings can be seen as different ages recollections about the same events and truth is a interpretation rather in his writings so there is room for multiple telling if a person is in a later age. Awesome deep dive, love the channel!
Have you ever considered this to be a mistake on Tolkien's part? Can you think of any other "inconsistencies" or "plot holes" that you would like to see discussed? What do you think about the mysterious Three Rings and what would make one mightier than the other? Share your thoughts!
Thanks for the video. So far, the only story element I would not call an inconsistency but a weak point (because it feels like a forced literary decision) is the fact that Sauron in spirit form was able to save the ring from apocalyptic waves and currents and carry it over the sea.
Also, it still seems somewhat odd to me that Glorfindel apparently did hardly play a part in the War of the Ring after saving Frodo, he should have joined the Grey Company. Would have loved to hear him ponder about Minas Tirith and its architectural parallels to Gondolin.
@@Crafty_Spirit both are great points actually. Both are often brought up and some even refuse to accept the Sauron one! I'm sure I'll discuss the Sauron one naturally in other Numenor related videos but the Glorfindel one definitely could be a speculative video. Why was he in Middle-earth, that kind of thing...
Hi Steven! Fantastic, as usual. I was wondering if you'd ever be interested in covering the development of Galadriel and the perhaps superficial inconsistency with Tolkien equating her level of "power" as being the, or almost the, equivalent of Fëanor's and this, as well as Tolkien's explicit statement of the following being fact, making her the second most "powerful" of all the Eldar? Also, what examples in the texts might support/foreshadow these much later developments.
@@lauraheffner5342 hello! That would definitely be a good video. I have an idea about Galadriel in relation to her exile, which covers some of the development of her character. I'll take this comment on board though and see what can be done!
@@TheRedBook Thanks Steven!
Great video. Your channel has amazing content!
Thanks again. I think this is actually my least popular video :D I thought it was an interesting topic to explore.
@@TheRedBook
It is an interesting topic. I like how you discuss subtext, you do it very well.
Thanks
Should be thanking you for watching ;) !
@@TheRedBook no its my pleasure sir
The way I understand it, Nenya is the Chief because it is the most powerful. It is the only ring made of mithril, and it preserves Lothlórien much better than Vilya preserves Rivendell.
Vilya is called mightiest because, as I see it, it can be used as a weapon whereas Nenya cannot. I believe Vilya was used to take out the Nazgul during the chase.
Elrond says none of the three were made as weapons of war. Vilya protected Imladris but I'm sure Nenya would protect Lothlorien too. In fact, it did when it was assaulted.
@@TheRedBook, I'm sure war wasn't it's main purpose. But I'm under the impression, based on the very little evidence there is, that Vilya is more able to interact with and affect physical matter whereas Nenya is more of a spiritual artifact.
I have trouble seeing Vilya as more powerful than Nenya because, other than it being called "mightiest" once, all other evidence points to Nenya being greater overall. Starting from it being made of superior materials (diamond and mithril, as opposed to sapphire and gold) and being called "Chief", it was also the first ring to be given away by Celebrimbor, and Frodo specifically remarks that the magic in Lothlórien seems far more powerful than in Rivendell.
I know people can argue that's because Galadriel is more powerful than Elrond, but I think the ring is the main responsible for the difference because the "magic" that Frodo notices is literally just the ring doing what it was meant to do, which is something that Galadriel on her own cannot do.
The detail which might help with this issue is that Celebrimbor shared his love to Galadriel and so he gave the ring which mattered the most to her.
That's one version of the tale, possibly overruled by another! Though, I tend to take all versions in if these legendary stories.
it also involves the nature of the stones at the center of the Rings: diamonds are the sky stones as stars, as the only remaining Simlarill in mirror that mightyness and the hardests gems also. Sapphiire and ruby of the other two rings come closer in second place after the Diamond, and as equal polar opposites of the power behind their leader of Diamond. The Sapphire has some slight higher power as representative on Water against the Ruby/Fire ring. So the higher spiritual power relies with the clear Diamond of Heaven, then the raw material world is hold along Water Balance of the Sapphire ring, and finally a fiery passionate but positive lower-spirituality commitment got on the Rudy one.
I wonder what the Valar do all day during the second and third ages? Just sit around on their thrones being glorious? They don't seem to answer prayers unless you sail to the Undying lands and appeal directly.
They aren't supposed to answer prayers in that way. Their role should be diminished as the world settles. I do have a video about their role after Morgoth’s fall. Its called. Of the Valar in Middle-earth.
I think Nenya was considered the "Chief" of the three rings of power because the three rings were intimately linked with one another and ultimately the one ring. It allowed Galadriel to know the thoughts of the other ring bearers and communicate with them across vast distances. I don't remember Elrond being able to communicate with Gandalf but there are several instances of Galadriel being able to communicate with the other ring bearers and actually being able to control their actions such as when Frodo fought off Shelob and said words unknown to him. It seems she had the power to know others thoughts when she was close to them but this may have already been an inherent power. It is similar to the master stone of the palantiri. Not necessarily more powerful but the other stones were linked to it. Nenya was the chief of the three rings but the one ring still had the power to corrupt all the rings.
I have this headcanon that the Three were made to represent the three great Noldor houses. Fire for Feanor (whom has been linked to fire, from his naming to his manner of how his hroa departed from the world), air for Fingolfin and his family's affinity for the skies (how Manwe's eagles seem to love helping his descendants and of course, Earendil the star) and water for Finarfin (and his kinship to Aqualonde). As such, Finarfin also happens to be the king of the Noldor in Valinor (or if you subscribe to idea of Gil-Galad being of the house of Finarfin as the son of Orodreth so through him his house is also the ruling one in Middle Earth), hence, the ring that is meant to symbolize him and his house is chief to the Three while it is Fingolfin's descendants who continues to do the mightiest deeds in Middle Earth.
This is such a weak explanation but this HC is still something I'm quite fond of. 😂
It's probably that many of the things that come in threes are all tied together - Rings, Silmarils, Houses - can seem to link them all to fire, water, air.
The main motivation behind the elves' making of the rings of power is clearly stated in letter 131 and is also mentioned at the beginning of the video. However, in Unfinished Tales it is mentioned that Celebrimbor made the Three with a different power and purpose than the Nine and Seven. Now, when I evaluate these two sources together, I feel like there is a contradiction. Doesn't the difference between the Three and the others in terms of the purpose of construction indicate a difference in this motivation? Since Celebrimbor made the Three for a different purpose than the others, "to preservation, understanding, making and healing" as per the motivation expressed in letter 131, doesn't it show that the Nine and the Seven were also made for a different purpose than the Three? If so, wouldn't this create a conflict in terms of compatibility with the main motivation? I can't get this into my mind.
Totally agree with your explanation. Sauron was actually right. Frodo failed to toss the ring into the fire. It took an act of Eru Iluvatar to destroy the ring in Orodruin.
My ever expanding list of future videos is going to cover this point. You may disagree with my conclusion in it but I definitely want to talk about Eru's involvement in affairs and what it means.
@@TheRedBook
I may not agree with you, but I love hearing or reading your take on everything Tolkien.😁
@@TheRedBook I feel like the ending of the One Ring is the best guide to Eru’s methods and plans, and the way Eru prefers to take action in the world. When Eru acts directly against evil in the world, as when the Valar call upon him, the results are overwhelming and destructive. But in the Ainulindale, all Melkor’s music is ultimately turned in on itself and to Eru’s purpose, providing its own defeat and unwittingly becoming part of the great harmony, just as The Ring ultimately destroys itself through its own nature and actions via the damage it had done to Gollum. This is why the Dagor Dagorath has never resonated with me and why I’m glad Tolkien abandoned it. There must be a better answer to the problem of evil than a dead guy running it through with a magic sword.
I think mightiest of the 3 refers to how the ring is used.
Here's my opinion:
Galadriel's ring was capable of protecting all of Lothlorian by hiding the Elves from the rest of the world. Kinda like an invisible shroud. It was also responsible for the realms' beauty as far as growing things (trees, flowers, etc).
-it was said that once the One ring was destroyed, all 3 rings lost their power. Lothlorian ended up rotting away after Galadriels ring lost its power.
- considering how it protected Lothlorian and how long it had I'd say it was the Chief of the 3.
-2nd most powerful would be the Elven Ship Lords (cant remember his name) ring. Which he gave to Gandalf before sailing to the undying lands
- Gandalf's ring had the power to bolster men's hearts and give them courage whenever it was around. And Gandalf used it throughout the War of the Ring. Especially while in Rohan and while defending Gondor.
Elronds ring is 3rd. Mostly because I can't remember if it does anything.
AM I WRONG?
It's the thing sometime with us humans, we assume that the strongest must be the leader, we assume that power is equal to authority. But might and leadership are two different things.
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A driver has authority over his car. When it comes to pushing things forward, a car is quite a lot mightier than a human. The question is: what do you measure? Do you measure the same things?
there is some underlying common gentlemann saying then about "ladies never ever finishing troubles but knew how to finish them" so Nenya being the ring of Galadriel indeed was the cheif one, wereas Elrond´s one (and formerly from Gil-Galaad too) was just the one doing the frontal stand-up of conflicts. All rings were important anyway, also Narya´s role just couldn´t be overlooked either as complementary essential of the work.
I am not sure if this is an inconsistency, but if we accept Tolkien's own definition of "canon" - "Has this appeared in print?" - can we suppose that Galadriel's line about Celeborn "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn" in The Mirror of Galadriel can actually be interpreted as proof that Celeborn was a Telerin Elf of Aman? Could Tolkien have overlooked this? It's some time since I read their history in Unfinished Tales and I don't remember exactly if Tolkien ever mentions why he changed Celeborn's ancestry there.
I wouldn't count on it, especially with so many changes and a lack of a final thought before Tolkien's death. Celeborn, sadly, exists as an unfinished character it seems.
Early versions have him speaking Telerian as a native language, and it makes him a wood-elf in early versions. Then it changes to him being a Grey-elf, then in LotR he is a kinsman of Thingol. His ancestry is left unspoken, be that Sindar or Teleri. The Silmarillion saying he had been a prince of Doriath. Tolkien does say about 15 years after these early versions that Celeborn was a Grey Elf. It's these "alternate version" in UT that make him a Teler. It's ... messy.
Thank you for the info! Does Celeborn appear anywhere in HoME? I have a vague recollection he does but I can't seem to find him anywhere in the indexes, either as Celeborn, Keleborn or Teleporno. But then I was convinced the hint of Earendil slaying Ungoliant was in the Lost Tales, when it actually was in The Shaping of Middle-Earth. Do you think this could be good stuff for your Tolkien Archive series? ;)
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 Oh yeah, he makes an appearance in quite a few volumes. A couple with some brief mentions due to the path of the Fellowship, but others in a bit more detail.
His name is mentioned in the Lost Road and other writings, but its speaking of a tree. Another tree of silver mention in Morgoth's Ring but a brief mention that he fought to defend Alqualonde with Galadriel against the Noldor - one of Tolkien's many sainthood of Galadriel changes, but one implying he was in Valinor.
Sam mentions him in the epilogue to Lord of the Rings found in Sauron's Defeat. His first appearance is shown in The Treason of Isengard with the names Tar and Finduilas struck out with Aran and Rhien following. Then a bit of family tree stuff in The War of the Jewels - some confusion about Nimloth perhaps being the niece of Celeborn and some other interesting bits.
I think the Archive series could probably have a decent length video about Celeborn!
@@TheRedBook Thank you, Steven, and looking forward to new videos! ;)
It's interesting how after the rings were made the world changed once then after the rings were unmade or destroyed the world changed again
Do you think Middle - earth was better with the rings having been made, or did they only bring negativity?
@@TheRedBook Good question! Not sure I'm versed enough to make an answer yet, but I'll work on it! That's the fun part of discussing complicated ideas online, maybe: the fact that everyone comes from a different starting point in how much they're aware of the story. I'd like to say that negativity was already present before the rings were made, and that their forging only accelerated its intensity and scope, but I'm not quite sure this is true (not sure if Morgoth [Sauron's master] had appeared yet), so ultimately I'll have to come back to this later!
»Seldom have we had such delight in strangers, and it is fair to hear words of the Ancient Speech from the lips of other wanderers in the world.« Tolkien evoked, what was my first literary homeland. I only heard some of your essays, but you already uncovered some of my half forgotten roots. Thank you for that. Down in the comments, you speak about the plan to set straight the all to modern powerlevel logic, i.e. how it does not work in regard to living mythos. I want to encourage you to deal with this topic. It is an ugly thing in our times and we have to remember each other from time to time, that it holds no truth.
Professor Corey Olsen brought up one part he considered a "plot hole" he started by saying 99% of the so called plot holes people bring up are not inconsistencies. When Sauron was a prisoner in Numenor and it was sunk and destroyed he apparently didn't have the one ring on his person or it would've fell to the bottom of the ocean when he lost his physical body. He went to say that according to some Tolkien notes, Sauron didn't bring it with him when he was captured, so it seems inconsistent with Sauron's character to depart without his ring, he treasured it over everything else, he wouldn't have left it for decades somewhere while he was corrupting Numenor. This would be a great topic as I can think of a few scenarios of why the ring was left behind that don't seem so egregious in my opinion. Thanks and have a great day.
This is one I will cover but Tolkien clearly states in Letter 211 that Sauron carried the ring with him as a spirit after the Downfall. His power of domination largely "depended on it" as Tolkien says, so we shouldn't find it confusing that he could carry it off as a spirit.
Tolkien also says in the same letter that Sauron "naturally had the One Ring" and it helped him dominate the minds of the Númenóreans.
There is only one part that confuses people about where the ring and that is when The Silmarillion says that Sauron "took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr" when he returned to Middle-earth.
But I will happily cover this as one of the "inconsistencies" at some point!
Not a mistake. Like with Manwe and Melkor. Melkor was most powerful and even called "mightiest" but Manwe was chief and king of Valar because of his allegience, purity, and loyalty to Eru are of the highest quality. Elrond's ring could have more bulk power but Galadriel's could be more controllable and most able to act in tune with it's master, and therefore able to hold its domain in the most harmony. That domain would doubtless grow more prosperous and would be seen as the greater kingdom. Its possible that Gil Galad received the rings before Celebrimbor could fully explain their intimate details and he gave Galadriel the ring he should have kept himself. Or even he knew it and gave her that ring on purpose knowing that she was now the eldest and most powerful of all their kindred and he wanted her to have that to complement her nature.
Maybe we could get some more history on where the rings went so after they were mthere they were made who was in possession of them and where did they go at least mentioned
Do you mean a history of the rings? I could do that if there's something interesting I could add to the discussion. Maybe when Tolkien introduced them, or how different versions of text have the rings with different people, etc.
@@TheRedBook Right, exactly. I know for certain that Gil Galad had one, and I'm pretty sure he gave it to Elrond. So, a history from the moment they were forged and who took them, lost them, etc. Just like the One ring: we have a clear history of that ring.
@@geschaftsmanngeschaftsmann6891 - Yes, there is one point of contention with the Red Ring because of two different texts speaking of when it was handed over but...
Celebrimbor held all three at one point. Nenya was given to Galadriel and she kept it the entire timeline after. Vilya went to Gil-galad and he gave it to Elrond. Gil-galad also received Narya, giving it to Cirdan, who then held it without using it until Gandalf arrived over the sea.
A video could be useful with dates, etc.
@@TheRedBook Excellent! That fits nicely with those who were present in the Council of Elrond! I'm amazed, but not surprised. Yes, Cirdan would be a worthy keeper.
Righto, it's definitely an idea. Yes, it is kinda redundant, but redundancy can be good for the sake of the channel? Maybe some dialog between Cirdan and Celebrimbor, Cirdan and Gandalf, etc...even if only imagined what they would've discussed?
Thanks for providing this knowledge, it's definitely helpful in seeing the entire story.
I kept hearing "mate" and then I realized it's "might" 😅
I'm going to take a guess and say English isn't your first language?
Another reason why Nenya might be chief of the three may be due to the fact that Celebrimbor apparently loved Galadrial, and, though that love wasn't reciprocated, he may have considered it the chief of the Three as a sign of his regard for her.
I prefer your theory that Vilya was greatest because as the first Celebrimbor forged, it was dearest to him. It was the first manifestation of what the elves sought with The Rings Of Power, the first template made into a feasible artefact.
Then, Nenya was the most powerful because it was the third and last one, one he had perfected the smithing process.
Sounds the best to me…
Think you got the names flipped the wrong way, unless you mean something else by greatest? Vilya more powerful and Nenya the greatest? Let me know!
@@TheRedBook Yeah, I meant the opposite! The theory that makes most sense to me is that Nenya is “chief” of the 3 as the first one, while Vilya is most powerful as the last one.
@@MistaGify - That does make sense to me as well but if it came out that the chief ring was the one he made last and put some monumental effort into finishing his work, then I'd accept that and understand it.
@@TheRedBook That doesn’t make sense because if the chief ring was the last one, with the most monumental effort put into it, then that ring would be the chief AND mightiest ring.
Instead, 1 ring is chief and another is mightiest. I believe my theory is more watertight.
@@MistaGify - I don't necessarily agree because might ≠ authority. He could have made two rings, with one of them possibly with a more direct purpose that effects the physical world, he then makes a third ring to bind them all together, or perhaps have a part of the other two as well as its own gifts, making it the authority but NOT the mightiest. I could quite easily believe it was the last to be made but also the first for the reasons you stated. We will never know!
good observations - t/y
You're welcome :)
Consider the possibility that you can have a chief ring and a mightiest ring without being the same ring.
Nenya's role was to bind the other two rings to itself and to make all three repellent of the "Morgoth ingredient." Vilya is the source of power enhancement, so it's the "mightiest."
Since fire is more corrupted than air and water, Narya is kept in check Vilya and Nenya.
People see everything in terms of "power levels" now thanks to growing up with anime.
Yes, I really want to do a video on that. I was going to call it "How powerful is ?" and just talk about how power doesn't work in Tolkien the way people like that think...
@@TheRedBook I mean there's even LotR channels that can be bad about it. Like how powerful is Gandalf the Grey vs White vs Pre Istari, and they'll put these versions essentially on a bar graph, which is absurd. I think it's just easier for most people to oversimplify it that way instead of taking the time to delve into the inner workings of how Tolkien's world is structured.
Oh yeah, not all channels are created equal. A lot are purely movie focused and I'm guessing they talk in that way more than others? It seems to be popular though. Probably a product of superhero obsessed viewers? Seems crazy to me to constantly talk about hypothetical power battles ...
@@TheRedBook Well you seemed to have found a format that fills a niche that has been difficult (at least for me) to find. You reference rewritten material and you address details that many of the larger channels typically brush aside or gloss over. Your video about Gandalf being misunderstood by Sauron was a very solid breakdown. I've noticed your subscriber numbers being on the rise and it's impressive that you've managed to find an opening in what is a very saturated topic on UA-cam. Your channel may not appeal to the movie watchers necessarily, but I think you're on the right path here. So let me offer some encouragement and just say, well done.
@@cherub3624 It's appreciated. Always appreciate the support.
A lot of channels cover the 'lore', the characters, the stories, but there was definitely some analysis missing from UA-cam. I don't really know what a lot of channels think about the content because most don't share thoughts on it - just the information and anyone who has read Tolkien over and over for years will already know it.
It was one reason I wanted to start a channel. I also wanted it to be a Tolkien channel and not one that mixes in adaptation stuff all the time or always compares the text to it.
Chief Ring versus mighty Ring it's all about symbolism the chief ring is the symbolic ring worn by galadriel who had lived in in the undying lands and her father was son of one of the three great Kings of elves and Finarfin was the last great king of the Noldor.... And she was his daughter so obviously she's going to have what you would call more Station or social clout and since she has more Clout, Influence the ring Nenya was chief of the rings only in that it represented her clout this is very easy to understand what is meant by this and Elron who is male and younger is going to have more might and Power so the ring Vilya is going to fit him better obviously because he has less clout less station than her.... Just like if you brought in Finarfin he is going to have more clout than his daughter he is going to have greater station and even more so than him Ingwe or Olwe so that if one of those wore Venua the clout or station or the chiefness would be even greater than galadriel........ I don't understand what the confusion would be on this interpretation it's very clear to me...... But just because Celebrimbor(I know it's spelled wrong but my apologies) loved galadriel does not mean that it has more powers it just means that he held it in greater value and that's all it means...... I would say that the second most powerful is gandalf's ring in for the life of me I can't remember it that true name of it it's on the edge of my mind and it's late..... But as a Maia in the flesh form he would need the Ring of fire Vilya and the Firestone had to have more power because they would be in direct conflict with the enemy whereas Nenya was more of a subtle and protective and cleansing type ring that was still very powerful but it was more of a subtle indirect power that had a repelling power of evil which worked better for galadriel anyway since she was more of a magic user than gandalf or elron.....
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Tulkas was the mightiest of the Valar but Manwe was Chief amongst them…..
Melkor was 'mightiest' until he was no longer considered a part of them but Tolkien tends to use the words 'strength' and 'strongest' with Tulkas. Funnily enough, when a lot of readers discuss "power" they tend to just mean characters bashing fists against each other - which should mean Tulkas appeals to them since he's strongest but certainly not wisest or "most powerful".
Awe-some
Thanks for joining the channel! And thanks for commenting on what seems to be my least popular video :D
Seeing this as an inconsistentcy is just "power levels brainrot". Like which ring has a bigger number.
Simply saying: captain of a sports team is not automatically the best player on the team.
Ahoy, mateys! Which one's tha matey-est among ye?
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8:19 He was tho. Melkor was the Lord of All and Manwë simply refused to obey him.
teh Watcher in teh Water is a corrupter!