You might even be able to argue that Sauron was actually incapable of willingly taking off the Ring once he forged it. From Letter 211: "Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even [Sauron's] own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought." It would make sense that his dependency on the Ring went more than just physical.
Damn, this always happens. A good quote I really could have used in the video and one I have used on other videos :D . Thanks very much, I will reference your comment in my end of month response video - it's a great point!
@@TheRedBook Thanks! It's likely I remembered it from your past video. I'm glad you brought up the clarification Tolkien made that "one need not boggle at Sauron's spirit carrying the Ring back to Mordor." I feel like he's saying "use your imaginations, people!"
@@HenhousetheRed Exactly! A lot of people take it as some cop out on Tolkien's part but it should not be so confusing to imagine Sauron being able to manipulate this physical ring containing his spirt. Still, a video will be good to talk about that in detail!
Exactly, it wasn't just a tool, especially not to Sauron. It was a major slice of his own soul. The strongest urges of his ego were what the ring was physically made of. He would never dream of removing it, it was literally and spiritually a part of him.
I agree. The comment sections on my videos are so good that I started doing comment response videos recently. I don't see ones like this on many other Tolkien channels!
I think this may be something that Tolkien didn't initially get pinned down perfectly, and later made more clear in other writings. I *do* think the quote at 12:20 makes it sound like the Ring was "waiting for him," and we *are* told that he was merely a spirit. But later Tolkien clearly decided Sauron had had it with him in Numenor, so if you want to call canon Tolkien's "latest words" on a subject, then just have to accept that, in spite of the earlier writing and in spite of the fact that only his spirit escaped Numenor. It's all well and good to craft fancy explanations and justifications, but I suspect the truth is that when Tolkien wrote the first stuff he just was in a different frame of mind. He was a human author, and therefore imperfect.
First video with a brand new microphone - I hope it's somewhat of an improvement! Maybe an end to annoying comments about volume or quality (one can hope). This is another video about Sauron and another video about Númenor. Please leave your thoughts and comments and I will once again pick the best for my Appendices video. It's best to leave your comment as its own and not a response to this comment. Support The Red Book - www.patreon.com/theredbook
Great work! I think either way, the outcome would've been the same: the corruption of Numenor. I've always thought of Sauron having some or all the Nine during the Black Numenoreans' worship of Melkor and creating some of the Nazgul way back then, which he would send to Umbar.
Thank you so much for making all these videos. They are so thoroughly researched and well put together, really great work. Times are rough for me right now but watching your videos before bed helps my anxiety and provides an escape into the lore of a world I love. Seriously thanks!
I completely agree. I can't imagine Sauron willingly being separated from the ring. He didn't necessarily need it to corrupt the Numenoreans-- they were already 90% othe way there-- but it surely helped to turn them to him, as opposed to just turning away from the Valar. And what reason would he have for leaving it in Middle Earth? No matter what kind of spells he might use to hide it, it would always be safest with him. Virtually no one could resist him while he wielded it. And he had poured so much of his power into it, he would have felt insecure without it. It just doesn't make any sense for him to have left it behind. The new microphone sounds good. I used to always turn my volume all the way up to hear you, but this time I didn't have to.
I agree. I've never been convinced by the arguments about him leaving it. They all seem to stem from that one quote in The Silmarillion that I cover in the video - which doesn't even have to mean what many think it means. Hopefully the volume is better for more people. I should (maybe) get fewer comments about it now!
@@anglerfish4161 Sauron raised the sea like a mountain and cast the mighty armada out of the sea according to the History if Middle Earth books. He was just playing with those egoist Numenoreans like toys
Glad you checked out a more recent video. The one you commented on before was pretty old and I wish I never responded to a Screenrant article in the first place :D
Always took it as Sauron carrying the Ring off as a shadow might, with a breeze of air, travelling unseen from the lands of Numenor had he brought it with him to Numenor. Well-done this was a great video as always.
I absolutely agree with you, and I love your explanation. I've always thought that, concidering what purpose it was made for, how much it mattered for him and how he was attached to it, it makes no sense for Sauron to leave it behind. And although I have a vague understanding of how he could carry it back, I'd love to hear you explanation of this dilemma - so accurate, heavily backed up by the sourse material, and neat, as always😌
I'll do my very best! It's a question I see come up time and time again and it would be cool to make a video good enough to answer the question for some people :D that's always an aim for these Questions & Answers videos. Being a reference used by others.
Tolkien was a very devout Catholic, and Catholic writers such as Rose Zimbardo said that he stood by standard church metaphysical doctrines (as developed most notably by Thomas Aquinas). These doctrines teach that there is a hierarchy of substances, which here we can oversimplify as Spirit and Matter. Higher substances can exert control over lesser ones, and Spirit is higher than Matter. Angels are of a spiritual substance (with greater angels having power over lesser angels, etc). But the upshot was that angels, being of spiritual substance, can move mere matter by (at a minimum) changing the location of physical objects. This is laid out (somewhat inconsistently) in Aquinas’ Summa Theologica and other books. Seems to me that we can import Catholic theology into Tolkien’s legendarium, and since Sauron corresponds to an angelic being, he should be able to transport a ring around without much trouble. At least that’s how I see it.
@@TheRedBook Sorry I missed the premiere. Had to have a shower. If you haven't seen it I recommend you watch young and and the elvish. And twilight. Rings of power. I laughed man for five years minutes straight 😂😂😂😂😂😂🖐️
Excellent explanation. I would add to why the Numenorians wouldn't have noticed or felt desire for the Ring, the Ring was as you pointed out is visually plain and ordinary. Likely hidden by some mischief of Sauron from the eyes of Man and while the Ring was lost from Sauron it created desire in beings as it sought it's way back to it's Master while in Sauron's possession in Numenor it WAS with it's Master. The Ring could find no being in Arda that possesses Sauron's power and malice so there was no reason for the Ring to create desire in men. In short the Ring had absolutely no desire to be with anyone else and likely whatever will it seemed to have while out of Sauron's possession Sauron's will would have dominated that of the Ring anyhow.
Firstly, the new mic sounds great. As the professor himself said, not even Sauron was powerful enough to part with the ring. Being dispossessed of it destroyed his last physical body. As for carrying it back to middle earth his possession of it was enough for it to be with him. I have always thought this and indeed interpreted the taking it up again passage in the same way as you. I even like the awkwardness of the way he writes this in the Silmarillion, in places half remembered or unclear is how myth should come to us,again the beauty and genius of Tolkien shines through. Thanks and keep up the good work.
I always thought he took the ring with him and wore it on Numenor (as you state, Tolkien said that he did so it is hard to imagine he didn't unless perhaps he sent it away to Mordor during his time on Numenor). The question of how the dead and disembodied Sauron transported it back with him is far more of a conundrum and I look forward to your explanation! Also why Ringwraith armour didn't fall through them....
I definitely can answer that question and look forward to making that video. As for the Ringwraiths - easy answer is that they had physical forms - we just can't really see them! If you walked into a Ringwraith, you'd bump into them.
Since three of the Nazgul where Numenorian Lords and the Nazgul appeared before the time of Ar Pharazon, do you think Sauron was in Numenor before his capture in a different form and lead to the shadow falling on Numenor?
Good question Ali. Well, I don't think Sauron ever went to Numenor before he was taken there as a hostage - mostly due to his reaction at seeing it. He really seemed to gaze at it like someone who had never witnessed such a thing before - filling him with hatred and envy. But, it's always possible! As for the Nazgul, well Tolkien says "three were great lords of Númenórean race". Numenorean race does not necessarily mean "Men on the Kingdom of Numenor". By the time Sauron was handing out rings, Numenoreans had already settled lands east of their island, and it's entirely possible that these 3 lords were Men "of" Numenor but living in Middle-earth. I wouldn't personally attribute an early visit of Sauron to the shadow over Numenor, it really seems to be their own doing at that time and it makes it more significant and powerful that they fell into their own demise. Yet, again, it is possible. A lot of this stuff is a mystery to us. edit - Just to add. I may reference this comment in my Appendices response and give a bit more detail on my thoughts.
@@TheRedBookyeah I was contemplating if he brought any of the rings with him. I didn’t realize that the 9 were already around prior to him going to neumanor. Plus if he gave rings to people on neumanor you figure that it would be the king but their lives weren’t increased. And if it were regular men made sorcerers then I’d assume they would have brought them to valinor to fight the valar and then they would have been lost. But sauron didn’t need the ring to manipulate the elves. And they’re much harder to corrupt than man. So sauron being a maiar and a shape shifter i don’t think it’s at all necessary for him to need the ring to manipulate neumanor and cause it’s downfall. The maiar are extremely powerful. You think of luthien being only half and able to put morgath to sleep. Saruman was able to manipulate Gandalf and the white console with his voice. And they both were students of aule. Not that they got the ability to deceive from him. But they were both very capable at manipulation. Maybe you could make a video on if Saruman would have been able to cause the downfall of neumanor with his voice. I’d think he would be able to from the way he controlled Rohan. Yeah there’s a huge difference. But Saruman wasn’t even there personally. I don’t know if Sauron would trust leaving the ring in middle earth though. Especially with the elves knowing about it. Sure he believed no one could destroy it. But he did fear Aragon using it against him. I think he brought it with him. But I don’t think he needed it to corrupt neumanor. He’s got plenty of feats without it to come to that conclusion in my eyes. But yeah do you think Saruman would have been able to corrupt neumanor with his voice? If not what if he wasn’t limited in his power as an astari? I feel if he were at full strength he would have been able to do it easily.
Great post and very thought provoking. I must admit I always thought Sauron left the ring behind due to the quote 'there he took up again his great ring'. However thinking about the nature of the maiar - and what you have referenced as to be separate post - I will be very interested in your thoughts on how Sauron escaped as a spirit and carried the ring with him. I must say though I absolutely love the quality of your visuals to go along with each video. The art is excellent and fits the theme well. :)
Bit of an oversight by the Valar to destroy Númenór and Sauron's body, but allow his spirit to take the ring back to Middle Earth. I guess by the time he regained consciousness in spirit form, the ring was still on his body underwater and he knew where that was.
Fantastic ideas! I never imagined that he would willingly part with the Ring. It’s quite literally the greater part of his power. He would need it to exert his will enough to move so quickly in finalizing the ruin of Numenor, in my opinion. What is more interesting is that he was able to carry the ring with him at the time, as a disembodied spirit. Why couldn’t he have done the same after the Last Alliance? Had he been reduced in power too many times to achieve such a feat again? I don’t think so. I think it had something to do with Isildur cutting the Ring from Sauron’s hand. I believe since it was the 1st act in someone claiming the Ring from Sauron, against his will, that the “Cutting of the Ring” may have been more than just physically separating the Ring from Sauron’s person. It began severing him from his power in a mystical sense as well.
You are pretty much approaching my own thoughts on this too - especially in regards to the difference between Sauron on Numenor and Sauron in the Last Alliance. I was going to make a video discussing just when Isildur actually took the ring from Sauron as there are multiple answers to that. Perhaps I could end up making that first and then reference it in my Numenor video - or vice versa. And yes, you hit the nail on the head about Sauron parting with the ring. Why would he need to? It makes no sense. It's out of character and doesn't fit with the situation. Of course he took it.
@@TheRedBook I very much look forward to your upcoming videos on this! Also, I think you brought up a very good point about the Ring. Who exactly knew of it’s existence, power, & significance? Everyone assumes it to be common knowledge, but I doubt that. Did Isildur intend to cut the Ring from Sauron’s hand or was it a byproduct of Isildur slaying Sauron with Narsil? We may never know. We do know that it soon passed out of knowledge, even amonst the Wise. Edit: Actually (after cracking the book) the way the passage in the Silmarillion reads, it does seem that he did cut the Ring from Sauron on purpose, & that Sauron “forsook his body & his spirit fled”. Very interesting.
If you're going to discuss how Sauron could spirit the ring away upon his death in Numinor, I'd be interested to hear why you don't think he could have done that when slain during the war of the last alliance.
Because sauron had been "lain low" by elendil and gil galad previous to the ring actually being cut from his fingers. Plus this happened after he already had spent a large portion of his energy first creating the ring then recreating his phyiscal body after said fall of numenor
I don’t think he could take it with him because Isildur physically took it. I don’t think the Ring could be ever be rendered non-corporeal, that would defeat its purpose as a tie to the physical world. Tolkien’s description of Sauron’s spirit fleeing Numenor implies that he still had some power and influence on the physical world, probably, because he was still in possession of the Ring at the moment of his death. If his physical form had been slain by Elendil or Gil-Galad, before he lost possession of the Ring, then he likely would have carried it with him in the same manner and simply reappeared shortly afterwards. Not possessing the Ring greatly diminished his ability to draw power from it and thus when Isildur cut it from his hand he lost his physical form. In fact he was laid so low that he, temporarily, lost all but the feeblest attachment to the physical world. Nevertheless because it was not destroyed it still bound him to Middle-Earth and allowed him to slowly regain a significant part of his power. He was not “destroyed” be the destruction of the Ring. He simply lost all ties to the physical world and his spirit was rendered so completely powerless that it could never rise again. It actually makes complete sense that he must have had the Ring in his possession in Numenor. A bigger question I have is why didn’t the Last Alliance attempt to find and destroy the rings of the Nazgûl?
@@trekstarsam2494 Because Sauron didn’t “die” in the typical sense of the word. In the Akallabeth Tolkien states that “his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea”. He was robbed of his “fair” form and was never again able to take that form again, but he did have a physical form that could be seen and felt. When his fair form was destroyed he was still wearing the Ring and still at full strength. We know the Maiar could alter their forms at will, Sauron was especially known for doing that in the Silmarillion, this form he assumed was physical enough to carry the Ring out of the deep along with him. His “body” however would’ve needed a boat and, likely, was damaged beyond any usefulness. It makes sense too that he must’ve had his Ring with him because he was able to rebuild a “body” as soon as he returned to Mordor. Unlike in the War of the Last Alliance when he lost all physical form and existed as a spirit that took hundreds of years, perhaps thousands, to re-incarnate. We don’t even know for certain that the shadow falling on Mirkwood indicated that he had an actual “body” or if he was just a black cloud of darkness and corruption moving though the woods. Up to that point, at least, he had absolutely no physical form at all. Even if the Orcs at Gladden Fields had found the Ring and managed to find Sauron we can’t be sure he could’ve taken it up immediately, although, he certainly would’ve “recharged” much faster becoming a far greater threat within a few centuries instead of taking nearly 3000 years.
@@robertstrawser1426 But he didn't lose all physical form. Only in the movies is that a part of the plot, he has his tyrant form during the war of the ring. Gollum even says Sauron laid his hands on him and burned him.
Until I read the letter I had assumed he left the ring behind. And while there is no arguing with the author as to canon, I think it does boggle belief how he carried it as a spirit, at least as far as most of us understand a spirits ability to interact with the physical world which is why a further explanation was needed in the letter. Maybe there are different levels of being disincarnated for a Maiar?? It makes me wonder why he didn't just whisk it away from Isildur though.
I agree. Also the here would have been the danger of having the ring taken from him- he was a prisoner after all! What if they stripped him of everything as war trophies, unknowingly taking the ring?
People always do argue with the author. Take the widespread mistaken belief that Arda was flat before the Downfall. Tolkien himself is on spoken record in an interview as saying it was always a globe.
@@theradgegadgie6352 Oh...? And here I was thinking Tolkien especially brilliant for managing to combine both a flat and round world into the same cosmology!
Before I knew the Letters I assumed Sauron left the Ring behind. The story-logic points this way: if the Ring does not avail Sauron against Numenor, he must find another way to encompass its fall. "Took up again the Great Ring" reads most naturally as him taking it up again for the first time since his submission to Ar-Pharazon. So (with no authority whatsoever and contradicting the author's own explanations) I prefer to keep the Ring away from the Downfall. A related question is: what happens with the Nine Rings? Do the Nazgul keep them? How does Sauron get them back? I guess the foundations of Barad-Dur have some pretty elaborate security systems but it would be interesting to know more. The sound is fine. A couple of gentle comments: Voiceover guy sounds North American, he says "shown" for "shone". "Gesture" has a soft G. But thanks again for lovely content, great atmosphere as always
I know many people ask themselves if Sauron could carry Ring to Mordor how is it that he couldn’t just take it off from Isildur’s neck by spirit doing. The answer lies in his state of power, although drowned in cataclysm of Ellena island, he still had great power with him (obviously enough to still interfere with material objects as a spirit form but maybe only directly with those carrying the piece of his own soul/will). That same strength was used to make new clothes for him trough manipulation of great reservoir of his own power that could be used at any time without gathering or meditating, the One. So he could have used his own power on his own power in One Ring in order to carry it or create a new physical form. After his finger being cut by Isildur, that same strength needed to directly interfere with the One in near presence with it went away, as keeping the form “alive” needed continous power exerted trough ring, without it no power in electric circuit, and most esentially, that power, gone, for good. Thats why he couldn’t grab it from Isildur’s neck in spirit form. And for those who want dome scientific explenation of carrying the ring across the ocean in spirit form remember all Ainur before taking their earthly bodies, in spirit form, had impact in changing/making of Arda.
Awesome video! It always made sense to me that Sauron took the Ring to Nùmenor. One question that I would love to possibly see a video on is this: What would have happened if Ar-Pharazôn was allowed to wage war on Valinor, and the Valar did not appeal to Eru? Would the Numenoreans fight the Elves of Valinor? Without the interference of the Valar, who would win, and what would happen afterwards? Maybe the downfall of Numenor, while tragic and regrettable, prevented an even worse future for Middle Earth. Thanks again for all that you do!
If an invisible ring wraith can biff someone with a mace or sword, or sport some nifty dark outfits, why shouldn't a temporarily bodily inconvenienced Sauron not be able to take his ring about with him. Of ALL the aspects of suspending disbelief, why should THAT be the aspect that people say "Wait! No! That's simply not believable. Huge islands instantly being submerged? Sure, fine. A world going from flat to round? Bring it on! Leaving his body, flitting across an ocean, then undisembodying himself, but now in a body that shows he's a naughty fellow? Surprised we don't see more of that! But he keeps his ring with him? What do you take me for! Do you think I'll swallow just anything?" The ring the broke the camel's back.
Sauron absolutely took and possessed the one ring at all times and was , in my opinion, easily able to take it with him back to Mordor, he was after all an extremely gifted and powerful Mair spirit. So taking the ring and wearing it to me would be very easy for this Being of immense power to achieve! I also love your channel thank you!
It's nice to read a comment that seems to completely agree with what I have said in the video 😅 . I was quite surprised by how many people still said he didn't take it or couldn't return with it! Thanks :D
@@TheRedBook I don’t really understand how others don’t or can’t see all the magic and power of Sauron and the other powerful creatures of middle earth 🌍!
I think people like the mechanics being explained instead of just using their imagination. I get a lot of "This character couldn't have done this because at this other time this character didn't do it" as if everything regimented and exactly the same in all situations. I don't get it...
@@TheRedBook I totally agree and I really love your channel and content thank you so much! Without people like you I’d have to find time to read all the material and I just don’t have time but you can break it down and REALLY bring it to life for me so again thank you!
A Middle Earth RPG group that I used to be a part of a long time ago came up with our own head-canon for this part of the story... In our version, Sauron took the ring with him to Numenor. He then began to corrupt Ar-Pharazon and his inner circle, bringing them over to Morgoth worship. Sauron then convinced Ar-Pharazon to desecrate the Hallow of Eru, the holy shrine near Numenor's highest peak, by erecting a statue of Morgoth there. This shrine, which was originally meant to be a private place where only the king was allowed to enter while making prayers to Eru, now became a secret shrine to Morgoth where Ar-Pharazon and the lords closest to him could meet in secret while planning to expand their cult of Morgoth to the wider populous. Later, after Ar-Pharazon had left to make war upon the Valar, and the waves began to swallow the island, Sauron made his way up to the shrine. The statue of Morgoth within had an outstretched hand, with it's palm facing up. As Numenor sank, Sauron removed the one ring, set it upon the palm, and then through magic cause the stone hand to close a fist around the ring. Moments later the waves rushed into the shrine, washing Sauron away and smashing his body against the rocks below. When the waves receded, though, the shrine and the peak of Meneltarma were still above the water, the only bit of Numenor not swallowed by the sea. Many years following the fall of Numenor, a group of pirates out of Umbar, blown by a storm, came upon this last remnant of the island. Upon entering the ancient shrine, the fist of the statue of Morgoth crumbled to dust, revealing the one ring. The pirate captain took the ring for himself, and as he did there was a great rumbling, forcing him and his men back to their ship as the peak of Meneltarma and the shrine now finally sunk below the waves. Once back in Umbar, the pirate captain used the ring to aid him in murdering rivals and bringing torture upon his own crew. The corruption of the ring, though, drove him towards uncontrollable levels of paranoia and violence to such an extant that he was eventually reduced to being an outcast and desert brigand, commanding only a small gang who followed him strictly out of fear. While in the desert, this group was set upon by a ringwraith, who had been hunting for the ring upon it's return to Middle Earth. In this confrontation the ring bearer's gang fled him, and the ringwraith stabbed the ring bearer with a morgul blade, before disappearing back into the night itself. Now alone in the desert, and slowly succumbing to the morgul blade's effects, the ring bearer was overcome by a compulsion to head north. He forgo thirst and hunger, his mind disappearing into darkness, as he crawled across the Haradwaith and entered Mordor. His corpse-like body eventually reached Barad-dur and shambled into the tower, and with his last bit of energy he collapsed at the feet of Sauron's throne. As his body made it's final transformation into formless wraith, it blew away as dust, leaning nothing but the ring at Sauron's feet. And as Sauron, sitting in his throne now once again began to take physical form, the Witch King picked up the ring and returned it to his master's finger.
Tom Bombadil and Galadriel both show that a being of great personal power can actually make one of the Great Rings disappear, rather than the other way around. It's only because the One Ring is so much more incredibly powerful than Men and Hobbits that they disappear when wearing it. One could also say this about Elrond and Gandalf to a degree - in the latter case, hiding Narya so artfully that even Saruman couldn't see it to take it away from him during his captivity in Orthanc.
In terms of Sauron taking the ring with him to numenor, I kind of figured that he would see that as his chance to really see what he could do with his ring. I think that is why he push things so far with them, because that was a kind of test run to see how far he could get them to take it
Here's a simple question to ask oneself, in order to clarify why Sauron *had* to take the Ring with him to Numenor: where the hell would he HIDE it at home, if he hadn't taken it? Who, or what, would he trust to guard it? Hewas on Numenor, after all, for FIFTY-SEVEN YEARS, according to the sources, and I can't imagine why he'd want to do without it, OR leave it unattended for even a fraction of that time. Besdies, he clearly wasn't prepared to lose the ring when he eventually did later, at the end of the Second Age, so how could he be prepared for it now?
“Took up” is slightly archaic English for “Started using”, and does not imply the person did not have the object at hand. A master smith may take up his hammer and craft a fine sword. A king may take up his banner and march to war. A herald may take up his horn and announce the kings arrival. It means “wield”. So Sauron may take up his ring and start using it to gather his armies, etc. It does not mean he did not already have it with him.
@@TheRedBook yes, the four kings with no faces, i use this AI a lot, so i recognized some patterns. ^^ I had the same ideas form some videos of mine, and i did a lot, a very lot of tlkien related images ^^
I think you know how I feel about this topic, Steven. You are, of course, right as usual. I cannot argue with the case you presented. It was over when you quoted Tolkien. Nevertheless I have some issues: (1) Tolkien told us that Sauron has his maximum power whether he had the ring or not. Do you see where I'm going with this? That tells me he had the One Ring power even if it were left behind. (2) I want you to explain how Sauron's ëala was able to carry the ring out of the depths of the Belegaer, but couldn't when Sauron's body lay on the ground after Gil-galad and Elendil cast him down. Joshua actually did a whole video on this topic for me. (3) How could Sauron hide the power he wielded with Ring in Numenor. It is do evil and powerful, there had to be some sense that this bloke had something on him or with him. I don't think Sauron is capable of turning down the power of his Ring. Love your video and new mic. Great investment!😁👍
Hello Enerdhil, I'll probably pick up on one or two of these points in my response video but I'll briefly respond here. 1) I am unaware of any such Tolkien quote.Tolkien merely says that without the ring (while it still existed) Sauron was not diminished. This is not equal to Sauron being at his greatest. He was enhanced while he had the ring. If we call that "Maximum power" then Sauron certainly would have physically needed the ring with him. 2) A lot of people have asked this but I don't think both scenarios are the same. Sauron being able to do one while being unable to to do the other doesn't mean neither happened but I will expand upon this in the future 3) As said in another comment, I don't really believe this is a thing. I agree that certain individuals with keen senses and perception could see some "magic" at work. Like Gandalf seeing through Saruman's voice but I would not talk of turning down the power, or others just knowing something magical was going on. The whole point is that you would be falling to his corruption, domination, persuasion without realising it was happening. That's the whole point. It enhances Sauron's natural skills of deceit. If it made them more obvious then it's hardly an enhancement. I won't be able to have a big discussion in this comment section about these points, but as I said, I may talk about them in the Appendices video.
While I'm on the subject, I want to ask. In the relevant passage, it is stated that while Ar-Pharazôn took Sauron as captive to Númenor, he also took his servants. How can you explain this issue? For example, was the Nazgûl also taken to Númenor?
That quote doesn't mean he took Sauron's servants. It means that Sauron being taken as a hostage was for himself and all his servants. Basically, a way to control Sauron and all his servants in Middle-earth, by holding the Dark Lord himself in sway.
I couldn't imagine any reason for Sauron to leave his Ring, the greatest amplifier of his power and part of his self, behind in some cupboard in Baradûr. Like you said, the Númenorians knew nothing of it and I'm confident he would have been able to keep it hidden on his person if he needed to.
It is an interesting question. However, it isn't the main question here. If he took the ring with him to Numenor, then when he died with Numenor he was able to carry the ring away in spirit form. If this sequence of events was true, how did he lose the ring on Orodruin when he was killed. He should have been able to carry the ring away again.
After he returned to Mordor, he used the ring to create a new physical body. In effect, unlike his earlier form which he had manifested of hisself, this was not Sauron's body, but the Ring's body which Sauron then inhabited while it existed and it only existed while he wore the Ring. When the Ring was cut from his hand, he no longer had the power to manifest enough of a physical body to take the ring from Isildur who now had physical possession of it.
@@jimhart4488 "After he returned to Mordor, he used the ring to create a new physical body".... This still doesn't answer the point of the question, how could he have *brought* the ring *back* if he was wearing it when Numenor was cataclysmically destroyed and sank? Remember, Eru Iluvatar was the cause, the ring would not have been able to survive Eru's wrath, especially considering Sauron's (essentially an angel/demigod) body could not survive. If he *did* bring it with him, it would have sunk beneath the waves and would have been trapped under a (albeit small) continent's worth of debris... that is, if it even left remains on Arda at all; Eru Iluvatar *did* completely remake the shape of Arda after all....
@@cheesehands3112 Well, I took the point of esmann's question to be why couldn't he take the ring away from Orodruin. That is the question I tried to answer. As for Numenor, see my primary comment on this. I don't believe he took the Ring to Numenor, so there is no question as to how he brought it back as he had left it in Mordor.
@@jimhart4488i don’t think that’s the case. It seems so in the movies. But he had a physical body during the lord of the rings. They didn’t show it but golem talks about it. I haven’t read the books myself but I have watched tons of videos on Tolkiens work. My understanding is Gil gilad and elindel actually landed killing blows on Sauron. Dying in the process but yeah Sauron was on the ground half dead when ilsildor cut the ring off his finger. I think it’s because ilsildor had possession of it. So Sauron’s spirit couldn’t overcome an actual physical being possessing it. Idk maybe I’m wrong.
@@forfun6273 There are plot holes in LOTR, in both the books and movies. Sauron's connection to the One Ring and his ability to take physical form is one of them. Tolkien left inconsistencies and contradictions in both the published works and the notes. The Hobbit did not begin as a precursor to anything. It was just a story to entertain children. It grew into the Lord of the Rings, and as it did, the already published account created problems for the larger story. The Necromancer in The Hobbit seems to have been a physical person in the Hobbit, and the Ring was just a magic ring that made one invisible. The Ring took on greater importance in LOTR and had far greater powers than simple magic, and the Necromancer became Sauron, who forged the Ring and poured so much of his strength into it that it left him weakened when he lost it. But just how was he weakened? And exactly when? These things are not clearly stated and much is left to the reader to work out. It is not a surprise that different readers can work things out differently.
Quite personally I always felt that sauron's comment about driving the numenoreans into the sea, was very similar to when Frodo told Gollum if you ever touch me again you shall be cast yourself into the volcano. Almost like he saw it, or through sheer force of willpower just made it happen. I believe this is one of the main traits of the ring, is either seeing into or affecting the truth of things. Quite frankly, I think the ring allowed Sauron to see the numenoreans drowning, but he did not realize in what context, and that he would also die. This would also connect to what he did with denethor, driving him to Madness by showing him bits and pieces of the future that were not what they seemed. In summary, my conclusion is, do not argue with Sauron.😂
I like to think of Sauron persuading a sea serpent or other creature to bear the ring from Numenor across the sea to Middle Earth, maybe in its belly. Then from Umbar, say, an unknowing man, orc, or warg might have carried the body of the serpent to Barad Dur, where Sauron could gut his catch and "take up" his ring. Completely made up, but a fun way to connect the dots in my head.
Greatly looking forward to the upcoming video you mentioned. I think my own confusion re. the forms of the Ainur stem from certain characters like Melian and the Istari. If it's said they are Incarnate, is the idea that this form is really Fanar, or does Incarnate strictly mean Hröar?
That's definitely the kind of stuff I will talk about but I can say that yes when one of these beings becomes one of the Incarnate, they can't just abandon that form as they would with a raiment. They are tied to it. It's an explanation of why Saruman when he abandoned his duty didn't assume some other form. He came to Middle-earth as one of the Incarnate and he only left that form when he died in The Shire. Melian interacted with the world in a way where she physically became a part of it. She couldn't have become pregnant without being one of the Incarnate. The very act itself having her rely more on that form but in a far more "pure" way when compared to the likes of Sauron and Morgoth who became physically bound to the world through evil deeds and the will to control the physical.
@@TheRedBook excellent, I think this is also really tied to another conversation about exceptions. I look forward to all of your content, but these sort of breakdowns for me truly expand upon my own limited understanding. Thank you!
I think the thing to remember is that at no point in time was he ever separated from the ring while his body was being destroyed. The reason why he was so important after his body/soul was destroyed last time was it was separated from the ring. The only thing he lost from Numenor was the ability to look pleasing.
Tolkien does also say that each time Sauron rebuilt himself, he did lose a part of his 'will' - or strength of spirit. "The effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realsation of its imagination". But this also doesn't mean that without the ring (While it still existed and was owned by him) that he was weaker - which a lot of people seem to think most likely due to the movies.
@@TheRedBook I think he wasn’t weaker in total sense but he had difficulty accessing his power/abilities/imagination on how to do it. If you chop off my left hand I will have difficulty to writing but it’s a matter of component. Reattach it and I should be able to write fine. It is interesting to compare the nearly indestructible ring to the indestructible soul. I think the ring did something for Sauron, besides affect people. Wasn’t there mention of Sauron being enhanced by the ring’s existence? I think that may be a book reason to conclude without it he’d be weaker (though not correct). I thought I read somewhere in the new materials (morgoths ring maybe) released that Sauron with the ring was nearly on the level of a vala.
@@albdamned577 Not enhanced by its existence but enhanced through its use. So, Sauron after making the ring was Sauron. Sauron using the ring was Sauron enhanced. Sauron without the ring was Sauron. Sauron with the ring's destruction was severely diminished Sauron. This is something I will talk about in some video about what the ring actually did for Sauron, explaining why he made it beyond "To dominate others". Quite a lot to cover as you have hinted at.
@@TheRedBook yeah that is a good way of describing the “power up”. Lol it just occurred to me Sauron “forgot” how to look good. Beyond the controlling of the other ring wearers, I always figured that the ring essentially did what the other rings did, slow entropy (not the word Tolkien would use but essentially it’s that). The way morgoth is described in the beginning could crush and destroy middle earth literally. He prevented existence from settling into 1 state. If you are able to conserve that power level into the future, you could do anything. There’s some sci-fi stories that explore that thought.
It has always been just a bit of a plot hole concerning the manner in which Sauron’s disembodied spirit managed to whisk the physical, indestructible ring away from the abject, tempestuous destruction of Numenor by Eru Illuvatar. Tolkien equivocated just a bit, noting (as the host has mentioned) that it was no great stretch of the imagination to posit that a ghostly Sauron somehow lifted the ring and carried it away when his spirit fled the cataclysm to Mordor. It wasn’t one of Tolkien’s better explanations, in my opinion, because the very bedrock of LOTR later centered so pivotally upon the conundrum presented by Sauron’s physical separation from the ring, and his inability to locate it, find it, get hold of it, etc. No small consideration. Though Sauron’s ring may have been able to survive the maelstrom of Numenor’s destruction, would not the One Ring have vanished with the rest of Numenor’s physical ruins and remnants, as just one more trifle? How would Sauron’s disembodied spirit have somehow gravitated back, after the catastrophe, to an eradicated locale, to simply hone-in on the ostensibly buried/vanished ring and take it away? That begs the question as to why Sauron’s banished spirit could not have simply dragged the ring along with him before Isildur managed to get his hands upon it after the “death” of Sauron following the battle of the Last Alliance. If Sauron could drag the thing, spiritually speaking, from the fury of Numenor’s destruction, then surely he could have nicked it and fled when Gil-Galad and Isildur & company finally overthrew him, physically. It would also seem to be easier for a disembodied Sauron to hover-about and pursue Isildur, keeping track of the ring’s subsequent movements at the very least. Tolkien didn’t spill much ink on the matter, seemingly because he thought it best left to reasonable imagination. But there seems to be no question that Sauron brought his “Precious” to Numenor. Perhaps it is best to posit that, upon recognizing his imminent physical destruction with the oncoming obliteration of the kingdom, Sauron prepared some enchantment ahead of time that would allow him to “spirit away” his ring after being separated from his body. Otherwise, it’s just a minor plot-hole that can be overlooked, in my opinion. Certainly, when Sauron abandoned Numenor’s collapse as a spectral being, he did not have the aid of his later henchmen (The Nine) to help him secure the ring. He obviously made some artful provision to save both the ring and his own spiritual life-force, even as Numenor was obviously under the swift and irrevocable wrath of Illuvatar.
My understanding is that while Sauron was stuck in a spiritual or ghostly form, he could still interact with the physical world, just in a diminished capacity, especially when he still had the ring in his possession as an anchor. This would help explain why after the ring was lost to Isildur it took thousands of years for him to reform as a physical being. To put it another way, he may have been able to move a twig or speak in a whisper even as a ghost, but not pick up a hammer or command servants (beyond the nine), and thus grabbing and carrying back a ring wouldn't have been beyond him. That said, once the ring was destroyed, his connection to the physical world broken, and the best part of his inherent strength was lost, then he became wholly impotent to return to a physical form. TLDR, Sauron as a disembodied spirit after the fall of Numenor, while weaker for having his first physical form destroyed, was still stronger than it was after being killed again and losing his ring to Isildur, and again when the ring was destroyed.
Thanks for the video. The only thing I am wondering about: How did he manage to bring the Ring to Mordor as a spirit? How did he do that? Otherwise it really makes sense that he took the Ring to Númenor...
The Ainur shaped the world itself without physical forms - they exist naturally without them. Sauron being able to move a ring containing his spirit is one of the least impressive things he'd ever be able to do. But as I say in the video, I will cover that question in a video of its own.
i imagined Spirits lie on a spectrum in how much they can interact with the seen/physical world. And even though Sauron's physical body was destroyed, because he put so much of himself physically into the ring (so much so that upon the ring's destruction Sauron lost the ability to take physical form and interact with the seen/physical world entirely)
My favorite line in the Silmarillion was when Al’Pharazon commanded him to come “and Sauron came.” It’s chilling. Nope. Not afraid. Not cowed. Just strong in his own power. He knew he could master Pharazon, ring or no.
Another example of a Maia carrying something without a physical body would be Arien, who “forsook her form and raiment” and carried the sun into the sky. Though I completely understand why people who’ve only read the quote from the Silmarillion would think this. It’s not too hard to believe that if Sauron could convince the Gwaith-i-Mirdain he was an emissary of the Valar without using the Ring, then he could also deceive the already falling Númenoreans. And I don’t know if the letters are more conical than Christopher Tolkien’s edit if the Silmarillion, since surely he would have read all the letters and have been cross referencing that information with other notes and drafts. Given the tremendous level of detail and long span of time over which this material was written, it’s not hard to believe that there could be some inconsistencies. They seem so few and far between when it comes to Tolkien only because he was so proficient in making new ideas fit into older ones so we aren’t trained to believe he makes mistakes.
Taking up the ring again- is used in the archaic sense by Tolkien. The meaning is rather like taking up your sword, that is, to gather up your weapons and prepare to use them. Since Sauron wasn't actively using the ring to project his power at the time he would have had to take it up again, not unlike a warrior that may keep a weapon (on the mantle or even on his person) ready to take it up again in a time of need.
Speaking of Sauron surviving the fall of Numinor. What do you think he thought happened? Would he have thought it was an act of Eru or the Valar? I would think that experiencing such an immensely powerful act would have an effect on how he sees the world.
Yes, not only did Sauron know what had happened but it directly influenced his plans going forward. By the time the Istari arrive, Sauron believes the West (and Eru) have pretty much abandoned Middle-earth and left it to its fate, the Changing of the World makes Sauron think Aman's removal is some sign that Middle-earth is now on its own. He's wrong, of course.
I think the Shadow of Morgoth to be so powerful that evil creatures cannot long repent in Middle Earth. It's said Sauron did for a limited time after the fall of Morgoth when Eönwë told him he couldn't pardon another Maia and that he had to return West, but he didn't go. In another video people asked, were Orcs irredeemable? The way Tolkien wrote them, yes. Assuming one surrendered, the peoples of Middle Earth were to treat them with mercy and not torture them, it said. But there is no tale on whether one did to live out its life peacefully in captivity. Gollum was no orc, but he didn't take to captivity. If the Sons of Elrond continued their quest to eradicate orcs from the Misty Mountains, then perhaps some orc-child or female begged for mercy and they had to take them back to Imladris (Rivendell) and keep them alive in dungeons, if they didn't fight or flee on the journey.
The One ring could change size depending on who wore it. It could slip from ones finger if it desired to do so. This means the ring could change form. Who is to say that Sauron, the master of the ring could not change its form to anything he wished? Sauron himself was a shapeshifter. Sauron and the ring are one.
I think it's easy to imagine that Sauron would be able to hide the ring from the view of others if he willed it. It's one of the least fantastical elements of Tolkien's stories in my opinion.
@@TheRedBook Agree with that as we saw Gandalf and the others able to make their rings invisible or unseen. Disagree with it changing into something else, like a hollow ball to float to the surface.
His physical form was destroyed in Numenor. Unless he had some great scuba gear that could counter Ulluvatar. The minds of the Numenorians were already twisted at this point. Manipulation would've been easy at that point.
Unfortunately I boggle, whether Tolkien thought I need do so or not, when I try to visualise a ghost float a ring across the ocean in a non-comical way and I also find it difficult to reconcile with what happens after his next death.
Quite a few people feel that way about it. I don't personally find it so strange but I am looking forward to sharing thoughts in a video about this strange event.
My thought has always been that Sauron left the ring in Mordor. Being a captive and hostage in the power of the Numenoreans, initially posed a risk that the ring would be taken from him even if the Numenoreans were unaware of what it actually was. So he would have left in a secure place in Mordor. I think his connection to the ring was such that, though he could draw upon the full power of the ring when wearing it, and because he had poured much of his power into the ring he was much weaker without it, he could still draw on some of its power even if he was not wearing it. After the destruction of Numenor and the death of Sauron, his spirit returned to Mordor where he used the ring to form a new body. In this new body, formed by the power of the ring, he had to physically possess the ring to maintain the body it created. In other words, this body was an embodiment of the power of the ring which Sauron's spirit inhabited. When Isildur cut the ring from his hand and severed the connection, the body disintegrated and Sauron was unable to fully manifest in physical form without the ring. Sauron was still a Maiar spirit and still powerful, but because now most of what remained of his power was in the ring, he was much weaker without the ring than with it. But while it was lost, or possessed by Gollum who did not use it to exert power over others but was content to eat fish in a mountain cave, Sauron slowly gathered what power he could manifest to control the Nazgul and reclaim the Dwarven rings from which he could draw power as well. When Gandalf cast the ring into the fire and read the words, it seemed to awaken the ring and Sauron became aware of this increase his efforts to find it, both to regain his form and to keep it out of the hands of someone who might try to use it against him (though the only ones who probably had the strength necessary to do so were other Maiar like Saruman or Gandalf).
I have not read anything that would say Sauron could still use the ring when he wasn't in possession of it. Tolkien also says Sauron was not diminished without it (he just wasn't 'enhanced'). I also don't really agree with this idea of the body being bound to the ring. Like other fallen beings who were incarnated, he willed a shape once again and had a physical form but that's a form that could still be slain - which we see at the end of the Second Age. There's debate about when Isildur actually took the ring from him but I lean towards it being when Sauron was already mortally wounded and was still within his body - the severing of the ring causing some major shock to the system as it was being taken by another living thing and not just remaining on his body as his spirit left it. Sauron also had a physical form in the Third Age while the ring was not in his possession. Which seems to dismiss the idea of a body having to be made to tie it to the One Ring. He doesn't have to regain a form, he is physically sitting in his tower during The Lord of the Rings. It also wasn't throwing the ring into the fire that had awoken some desire to find it within Sauron - the desire came from finding Gollum and finally understanding that the ring was still around and even having a name and place to focus on for a search.
@@TheRedBook Did he have a physical form in the Third Age when he did not have the ring? I can't recall anything that says that. All I can recall is that he "took shape" which I read to mean a kind of ghostly presence, but not a solid form. I don't think we know what shape he took while in Barad-Dur other than he was perceived as a giant eye as portrayed in the movies. We do know that he poured much of his power into the One Ring which would suggest he was diminished without it. The Ring being thrown in the fire didn't necessarily awaken something in Sauron as much as it did awaken something in the Ring so that it wanted to return to Sauron. Until then, it seemed to content to stay with Gollum or Bilbo. What I meant to describe was a changing relationship between Sauron and the Ring between the Second and Third Age, and after it was taken but Isildur, a change in Sauron himself diminishing his ability manafest physical form--which could have been due to the shokd of having the Ring cut from his hand.
This interpretation makes psychologically total sense. Sauron would not part from the OR when he was going to surrender to Ar Pharazon. However it doesn't solve what is for me the biggest contradiction of the LotR : if the OR comes with Sauron after his death in Numenor, why doesn't it come with him when his finger is cut off by Isildur ? Actually the latter is less fatal than the former because nobody "dies" when his finger gets cut off. So what is the fundamental difference between these 2 events ?
I don't think Sauron would have left It behind in Middle Earth upon his arrest by Ar-Pharazon; would you leave the most powerful piece of you in a lock box thousands of miles away, either unguarded or guarded by deviants? But once he changed his form fair, would he need to continue its use? Probably not; The minds of Men were greatly weakened by this point in time due to hundreds of years of unrest with their mortality- a spiritual depression. Even gollum knew he only needed it at times ( feeling the burden it caused during use) and stashed it away though close by always; I'm sure Sauron understood this even better. Maybe The Ring was so powerful that, like any addiction, it had indelible negative effects, even on Sauron. Though not on his finger but in a pocket, like Bilbo, or a chain like Frodo carried it, The Ring chose to stay with Sauron and since it was no where stated that The Ring was forcible separated from its bearer, Sauron, followed him to Mordor after the flood. In this way, Sauron remained in possession of the device and could later actively use it once he was sure he, and It, were concealed. Just like the addict doesn't display his devices in risky company. Once alone, in the recesses of their dark places, they employ that power to whatever ends. I don't think Sauron even needed to wear It into battle but possibly did so as a fortificant. Why would someone, something like this Dark Lord need fortification?? Had he worn The Ring so long in his concealment that it had done the negative work and made him less confident without It? Was his constant wearing of The Ring his undoing. I have no clear ideas past this and have yet to do due diligence in reading. I read a lot but am a poor maker of study time. Thank you for giving us wonderful stories and doing all the hard work.
My belief is that he took the ring. Why wouldn't he? The Silmarillion text is confusing but your explanation of your interpretation is very convincing as is your explanation of why no one else took note of it. I've never understood why Sauron's ability to take the ring with him after Númenór's destruction is questioned. Garden variety ghost stories often have them able to affect physical object. Sauron is a powerful maia with a strong connection to the One Ring. Why wouldn't he be able to take the ring back with him?
haha yes you are basically in the same boat with me on that one. It makes sense to me that Sauron could carry the ring off as a spirit but it is a common question and I am looking forward to expanding on my thoughts about it. And I also agree completely with your simple "Why wouldn't he?". I've never read a convincing argument as to why Sauron would abandon the One Ring when taken as a hostage...
My problem with all of that is when Numenor sank, and he fled disembodied to wherever, how did he take the ring with him, assuming he had it with him? No fingers, what was it on?
@@TheRedBook Right. even in the modern folklore of ghosts and haunted houses, disembodied spirits can make noises, disturbances and move objects. I don't see why this idea seems so far-fetched to some people when it comes to Tolkien's mythos, which is chock-full of "magic" and spiritual forces.
I don’t want to sound arrogant, but this is 1 of those times when I ponder how unimaginative fans can be! Having never thought about this before, seeing your video pop up made my mind work quickly. Maybe he swallowed the Ring, then regurgitated it at a safer time on the island? Maybe he disguised it as a simple gold piercing on his nose or ears? Not very dignified for Sauron, I know, even resembling modern goth/punk fashion! What do you think of these alternatives? Of course, your answer is simplest: as a Maia, he is powerful enough to make The Ring invisible like Galadriel did. Now I have a related question for you: *What should have actually been done with Sauron after he surrendered to Ar-Pharazon? What should have been done in the given context, with the arrogance of the king mixed with mistrust and secrecy with the elves?*
It doesn't make sense for him to come out in battle alone (or surrender) without it, though that has been the thought with regard to the line. More likely he had it until death and as his spirit reformed near his body, it was still on his remains under the sea. So either he took it in spirit-form like a Ringwraith carrying cloak and knives or he summoned a sea monster like the Watcher in the Water to return his remains to Middle Earth. If he spent an age next to his undersea body, then that could explain how the Ringwraiths could still be active without him.
From a "devil's advocate" perspective, he might have left the Ring behind as a sort of insurance policy, knowing that if it still existed in safekeeping, he couldn't be utterly destroyed. He went in surrender, after all, and though he did plan to overthrow Numenor, he had no way of knowing the extent of the Valinorian response, and he must have considered the possibilities of being captured by members of his own order of being- what would they do with a captured Ring?
I've never felt that anyrhing said Sauron didn't take the One Ring with him; merely that it makes little sense how he got it back to Mordor, afterward. It seems weird that his defeat at the hands of Elendil and Gil-Galad was somehow more damning than literal divine intervention, yet he could reform, and recover his Ring, and carry it back to Mordor. Did it roll along the road, from the west coast, all the way to Mordor? Did he follow the newly curved earth, and come up in the far east we know so little about? His spirit could wield it, yet he didn't skulk near Isildur, and reclaim it when the King of Gondor and Arnor was slain. He had supernatural power, to be sure, but sadly it's never explained what all those powers can do.
I don’t think Tolkien’s quote in The Silmarillion implies any period of disuse of the One Ring. “Again,” in this context, can easily be read as a resumption of use or a continuation of use in a new setting, i.e. back in Mordor. Sauron had been using the One Ring before capture by Ar-Pharazon, he took up the use of his ring again in Numenor, and when Numenor was obliterated, Sauron’s took up the use of his ring again there. There is plenty of room for nuance, and Tolkien makes it abundantly clear that Sauron had the ring in Numenor. As for spirits carrying the ring, the Nazgul themselves were sent to retrieve it however they might. They had no real bodies, yet it is clearly understood that they had the capacity to bring the ring back to Sauron.
"When His Spirt of Haterd arose from the Abyes.Borne on a Dark Wind He Returned to the Tower and Took Up Again His Ring.But His Rage was Not Less.For Never Again could He Appear Fair to Elves and Men.Herafter His Power was Terror Alone.Black and Burning Hot With a single Yellow Eye. Was His Form Now"
Sauron having the ring does not diminish his deviousness in Numenor whatsoever as the creation of such a ring was devious in and of itself - so “naturally he would have had the one ring”.
I actually did read the Silmarillion passage to mean he left the Ring in Barad-dur. It seems unnatural to me to think that the phrase only refers to him not using the Ring during the very brief period after the fall of Numenor. That said, given what Tolkien says in the letter, the ambiguity is clearly resolved the other way. The only thing I still don’t really buy that Tolkien says there is that he would have used it to corrupt the minds of the Numenoreans. The point of the Ring was to influence other ring bearers after all, so it seems odd that it would also give him greater influence over other people. You could argue that he needed it because so much of his native power was in it, but this seems difficult to square with how easily he influences Saruman, a much more powerful entity than Ar-Pharazon, without the Ring. None of that means he wouldn’t take the Ring, of course, but it’s one of the few things where I don’t quite accept what Tolkien says.
The One Ring allowed Sauron to dominate the other rings, and so had no purpose in Numenor but... So much of his "self" was poured into the ring that having it with him made him complete and maximized his power. As for whether any one knew of the ring, it was a plain gold band and so who would pay attention to such plain trinket in a land of such wonders. His taking up the ring once back in Mordor simply meant he put it back on to wield it.
Agreed, I really can't imagine he would leave the Ring in Mordor, I guess he could leave it with ringwraiths but I don't think he would leave his "source of power" behind. But I am curious how he carried the Ring from Númenor to Mordor, guess I will find out in your future video, btw new mic sound great
Thanks :) I have been told it's a vast improvement. As for that topic - I feel bad not covering it here. Though, it most definitely will be a video as I have a few Sauron/Numenor video ideas written down. It's just such a commonly asked question that I think it's worth focusing on it completely in its own video.
Anyone else thing Sauron should have just taken back a nazgul ring & give Ar-Pharazon a ring of power? And once he turns Numenor evil, keep it as his greatest servants rather than trick them all to getting killed? I think the reason Sauron didn't did this was because he hated the line of Beren & Numenorians for defeating him so irrationally wanted their destruction.
I had not considered that the Numenoreans would not have learned of Sauron's Great Ring during the War of the Elves and Sauron. The Rings of Power were the prima facia reason for the War. The preservation protocols were Sauron's intellectual property and the Dark Lord wanted to take possession of the fruits of his IP. I wonder what Gil-Galad told Tar-Minastir about the cause of the conflict. If the Numenoreans did not know about the Great Rings, did Pharazon (not worthy of the Ar-) not know who Sauron really was? Bringing a dude who was said by your ancestors to regularly shapeshift into a werewolf (among other things) home with you, on a boat sounds unwise on its face, much less that same dude having "the Deceiver" at the end of his name. I suppose at the end of the day, they were peas in a pod, an yet it was a pod in which there could be only one pea.
@Al B Damned @The Red Book Sauron may not be deminished by not being in possesion of the Ring BUT I strongly suspect that the physical seperation (also maybe the "forced" seperation of the Ring by Isildur) did hinder him to use it effectively and to rebuild his body as fast as he did after Numenors destruction, since it was his primary source of Power. I would suggest the forced seperation of the Ring as a paralyzed body-part: yes, it is still there (hence he is not directly "diminished" when not physically in touch because it´s not destroyed) but accessing its power became much harder (hence he takes much longer to manifest). This also makes sense in a way that Sauron/Gandalf as Ainur actually were great spirits and a physical appearence to interact with Arda and its inhabitants did bring limitations/dangers to them. Saurons "rapport" to the Ring(I imagine it as a weak cognitive link) is still possible with it as a seperated "part" of him BUT that is probably about it... How strong could this "rapport" truly be if it does not even give Sauron the ability to, at the very leaaaast, vaguely show its location for Sauron to find it? -> extremly weak I would guess. Also the lore is often not very clear or even contradictory and the relationship of Sauron and his Ring is a good example: In LotR (The Shadow of the Past) Gandalf tells Frodo that: "This is the One Ring that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power." To conclude: to say the forced seperation of Sauron and his Ring would have no negative effect in his power/usage of power is not tenable. EDIT: whoever reads this, my mentioning of a paralyzed body part should not be mistaken as offense. It is just hard to compare a spiritual being living in the physical world to a completely-physical being such as us men.
it depends what you mean by power though. If Sauron without the One Ring is just Sauron and with it he is Enhanced Sauron. Then surely after thousands of years as Enhanced Sauron, it's removal from his direct influence would mean he had "lost power" even if he himself wasn't diminished and returned to being "just Sauron" ? Also, power can mean more than inherent natural will/influence/"power". Sauron's power stretches to his subject, his land, his empire. Sauron without the ring was not as great as he was with it but again, that doesn't mean he himself was weaker - he just wasn't stronger. Still. I take your points on board. Especially in regards to Sauron's physical form - already causing some sort of weakness - yet allowing him greater control over the physical world and its inhabitants.
@@TheRedBook "wordly power" such as armies/wealth can definetly be taken into consideration of the "broader" term of "power". But I was speaking about his "inherit power" as a great spirit. And yes: Sauron + Ring > Sauron - Ring but at the same time my reasoning from above gives very strong indication that Sauron - Ring != Sauron(before creation of the Ring) *if not even* Sauron - Ring < Sauron(before creation of the Ring). In the citation Gandalf speaks directly about the loss of the Ring and its connected impact on Saurons (likely inherit) "power". Just losing the enhancement-effects of the Ring would not lead to losing the control of his orc-armies (~ martial/worldly power) BUT if the direct /easy access to the power of said Ring is not given anymore.. that would in turn lead to a loss of "spiritual/will power" as well as to the loss of control/domination over his orc-slaves.
If Sauron had left the Ring behind in Mordor, how could he have stopped one of his henchmen from taking it for himself? Or how could he possibly have hidden it there so he could be sure nobody else could get it/find it? Some kind of super magical spell? Possibly. But surely he wouldn't have trusted ANY of his henchmen with the thing he'd put a huge amount of his power into, and I doubt that he would willingly leave it, even with the most powerful spells to hide it - spells can always be broken if you know how.
@@TheRedBook Yeah, Sauron's smart. He knows how to play men like Ar Pharazon like a fiddle. Inserting himself into the power structure of a colonial empire that already runs using quasi Sauron like methods and principle seems like an easy task. "Wealth, power, glory, you can have it all! Look at how magnificent and glorious I am, and you humbled even me!" Building up the Numenorean ego doesnt seem very difficult at all, and Sauron's been in this business a long time. He has all kind of esoteric knowledge to offer them. His gameplan was so brilliant. I think he couldve reigned as god king of Numenor and therefore the world pretty much forever if he hadnt overplayed his hand. Invading Valinor was a crazy risk even from Saurons perspective. If I were him Id want to leave the Valar well alone lol. I think the Numenoreans are at their best with their backs to the wall-like Isildur or the later Rangers of the North-and at their absolute worst when theyre powerful and secure. You even see this in Gondor.
I've always wondered why the Valar didn't intervene when Sauron was brought back to Numenor as a prisoner. Wasn't there still some kind of standing warrant for his arrest after the end of the First Age? The Valar must have known he was there. For that matter, why did Iluvatar allow Sauron to escape yet again when he destroyed Numenor? Tolkien's divine powers never seem to do a thorough job of dealing with enemies from their own ranks. Oops, Sauron escapes to spread death and misery. Again. To be honest, I think there are points in Tolkien's stories that don't work perfectly, and we just have to accept them for the sake of the larger narratives. The question of where the ring was during the fall of Numenor is one of these.
actually didn't think of that, could Sauron need the ring to stay material somehow? at least, before Numenor drowned. it is a very interesting question that i never seen brought up before. i am willing to see what this video theorizes.
No, he didn't need it to have a physical form but after losing his physical form, the presence of the ring certainly aided him in retaking shape far quicker than he would have otherwise. This is an issue with evil beings becoming "of the Incarnate" and I will try and discuss this in more detail when I talk about Sauron taking the ring from Numenor as a spirit.
@@TheRedBook keep the good work! love it when you post about the Dark Lords. i think i saw you talk Morgoth with someone called Girl from Gondor or something, i need to get to that one.
Definitely my favourite topic, as my list of videos shows! Got so many Dark Lord ideas for videos that I could dedicate the channel to that. And yes, that was a good chat, give it a chance when you can!
@@TheRedBook can you someday take a look at the Vile Eye's character analysis on Sauron? i would love to see what you think. it is a bit sad that it focuses more on the story than how the character became what he is. the degradation from the most powerful Legendarium character to a shadow of his former self. a good vid, but i found the "character analysis" kind of lacking.
@@enocescalona Is that the same guy who recently did the Morgoth one? I watched the Morgoth one as it was recommended. I'm always up for analysing these characters. I can check out his Sauron one since I didn't know that existed.
Regardless of that Prof Tolkien wrote "Sauron naturally had the Ring with him," it makes little sense that the fëa of Sauron could carry a material object back to Barad Dur when his hröa had been destroyed. Sauron KNEW he could corrupt the Numenoreans and worried that someone would take the Ring from him while a prisoner. His power was undiminished while not wearing it. The question overlooked is how did he continue to dominate the Nazgul without direct control of the Nine? There is no statement in the letters or published works that Sauron kept the Nine with him when going to Numenor. It makes more sense to leave his Ring and the Nine locked in Barad Dur, guarded by the Nazgul who were already slaves to his will. Tolkien revised many bits of the story and this is likely one he could have clarified if confronted with this contradiction. In contrast, Eru RETURNED the fëa of Gandalf to Middle Earth in the same place as his old hröa fell. Thus Gwaihir was able to return the reintegrated wizard PLUS Glamdring to Lorien for him to be robed in white. Sauron had no such intervention.
Having him physically killed in Numenor but somehow having the ring fly away makes no sense. If his spirit can control the ring and physically move it, then he also should not have been able to have lost it by having it cut off his finger.
I read your comment after watching the video and decided upon his death he was "unconscious" for a time. Then upon regaining consciousness his spirit was with what was left of his body under the sea. He then waited until he was substantial enough to move objects, like the Ringwraiths or Barrow-wights. Alternatively, he could have used his shadow to summon a sea monster, like the Watcher of the Water, to bring his body to Middle Earth. Once back in Barad-dûr, he could rebuild it. As to Isildur cutting it off, he may have regained consciousness as a spirit after his body was cast into the fire, if that's how they destroyed it, which I think likely. But he couldn't find the Ring as either spirit or body rebuilt without seeking for it. Then either the Ring itself or by command of his shadow betrayed Isildur to the orcs.
What I want to know is: did Mordor always look like a volcanic dump? If Sauron declares himself the King of Men, why don’t men question why he lives in a rusty tower next to an active volcano, surrounded by a wasteland of ash, with lots of orcs - who clearly hate men - in tow. You would think men would be like, nah I think this guy doesn’t really represent our be interests. Or did Mordor look like the nice part of town back then?
But, if Ar-Pharazon was not aware of Sauron's ring, how then was isildur aware of it, let alone seeing it on Sauron's finger and being able to cut it off?
These are different events at different times, involving different people. A lot of people keep comparing Sauron on Numenor with Isildur and it's not a 1:1 thing. Sauron didn't seem to be hiding the ring in Mordor, Isildur knew what the ring was, Sauron had already been defeated and Isildur took the ring from his body. There's loads of reasons :)
If Tolkien himself says it in a letter then so it is. Anyway, Sauron did not need the One Ring to corrupt and overthrow Numenor. It was a tool created to gain dominion over the Elves via the rings of power. I would agree Sauron was unlikely to leave it behind though. Yet even without the ring, as is told in LOTR, Sauron was able to rule over basically all mortal Men who were not descended from the Elf-friends of old.
How come he was able to take the ring back to Mordor in the form of his spirit after his physical form was destroyed at the destruction of Numenor, yet he could not do the same when the ring was parted from his physical form when Isildur cut the ring from his physical form at battle of the last alliance of Elves and Men?
Tolkien wrote that the One Ring was with Sauron in Numenor, so that is the canon. Sauron's form was destroyed in the Fall of Numenor and his spirit escaped with the OR by some power of the Maiar. That's supposedly the canon. So, when Isildur cut the OR from Sauron's hand and destroyed his physical form, why didn't Sauron's spirit once again escape and take the One Ring with him? In both cases, Sauron's spirit is separated from his physical hand, but in the first the OR is taken by his spirit and in the second not. If Sauron escaped with the OR when he is in Numenor, then the LotR trilogy makes no sense.
The Ring remained in Mordor. In Akallabeth, the penultimate narrative in the Silmarillion, we read that, first, Sauron lost his physical body at the fall of Numenor and, second, that he "took up again" the Ring when he returned in Middle-earth: "But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr..."
I really don't understand why some people leave comments on these videos when they haven't watched them. There's nothing to respond to here because... I talk about that in the video that you are commenting on.
@@TheRedBook I did. It's just that Tolkien doesn't leave us any space for conjecture here. I mean no disrespect. I just say that your fan theory is nice but does actually contradict the source material. That's all.
But that's the problem. Tolkien's letter is contradictory. Even if I were to agree with you that somehow the ring survived the destruction of Numenor (which would mean that Sauron's ring is more powerful than the power of the god Eru) and that his spirit took the ring to Mordor, why didn't Sauron take the ring from Isildor when he died ? If he couldn't take it from him while Isildur himself was wearing the ring, then he could definitely find and take the ring from the Great River.
@@nikolakulic3810 - It's not contradictory. Tolkien never directly states anywhere else that Sauron didn't take it. There's that one quote from the edited SIlmarillion that can be interpreted in multiple ways. There's no other quote saying he didn't take it but there's a quote saying he did take it. I don' know why people are choosing to ignore Tolkien's own words here. The ring "surviving" Numenor does not mean it is more powerful than God. That's a strange interpretation. Eru wasn't killing Sauron or destroying the ring, he was destroying Numenor and changing the World. Sauron and his ring got caught up in it. Why would this destruction unmake the ring?? Why do we assume Sauron knew the ring was in the river? Sauron never found the ring after he lost it. Sauron taking the ring from a living being who has claimed it and taking it from his own destruction on Numenor are two entirely separate events. Being able to do something at one time does not mean that the exact same thing should or could happen at another time under entirely different circumstances. Even if I couldn't explain Sauron not being able to take the ring as a spirit at the Last Alliance it does not change that he still did when he died on Numenor.
Hm, no I don't see it like that. In addition to the part about "he took up is ring ..." the Silmarillion states, that he became a council through his wit and strong will. The ring wouldn't help in that, because it only corrupts people that wear the lesser ring. I interpretate the whole thing as Sauron left the ring in Barad Dur kind as an anchor, and like a reminder to his servants, that he will be back "soon" (I guess heavily guarded by some Nazgul). A ghost handling the ring like you suppose, doesn't make any sense. If that was the case, he just could have snatched the ring out of the hands of Isidlur, flew away with it, and rebuilt a body somewhere else. He wouldn't even have lost on inch of his powers. But he had to flee, powerless and shapeless. Maybe the problem is those lost tales series. As far as I remember, some of the points and exclamations in the lost tales are contradicting what is written in the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings. And as far as I remember, Tolkien himself dismissed the lost tales.
My points are not from the lost tales, they are from the author himself in Letters - written at a later date than the text used in The Silmarillion with the line that is completely down to interpretation "took up". He says Sauron took it and I've still never read a good enough reason to say that he didn't take it.
Both mean the same thing "high, royal, noble" basically a title for a king. Tar is Quenya and Ar is Adunaic. This change occurred when the Men of Numenor started to drift away from the Elves.
unfortunately, there's always a niggling conflict at the heart of the legendarium...if sauron-as-spirit was able to return the ring from the ruin of númenor, why wasn't he able to flee with it after he was slain by elendil and gil-galad in the second age?
been going through all your videos, and you answered my question already: tolkein specifically said (in a letter, i think?) that sauron took the ring with him to numenor, and that makes perfect sense actually...he couldn't bear to give-up, even temporarily, possession of the ring. i guess the reason he was able to keep hold of it during the downfall of numenor, and _not_ when isuldur cut his finger off is *intent.* isuldur made an intentional act, which happened to take possession of the ring, so sauron wasn't able to keep hold of it, but that wasn't the case in the temple of melkor. anyhow, thanks for all your amazing work helping us understand the legendarium. ✌🏻😎
Until this video, I had actually concluded with equal conviction the opposite. Sauron was fearful of Numenor and their power and sophistication. How could he have any confidence as a prisoner the ring would not be detected and taken from him? To the point of him needing possession of it to dominate people, this clearly is not the case as he successfully dominated his entire 3rd Age following and beings no less than Saruman himself without it. And obviously it would have sunk when his body was destroyed, and he would have had a much easier time reforming his body when he returned to Mordor and “took it up again” versus the later scenario after Isildur took it. That logic and the actual text on him taking up his great ring again after the destruction of Numenor had me conclude he left it back in Mordor with the Nazgûl, etc. That said, the Tolkien letter apparently states the opposite and the arguments on him being able to hide it, etc have merit. A plot hole either way I guess. Even Tolkien isn’t perfect…
You might even be able to argue that Sauron was actually incapable of willingly taking off the Ring once he forged it. From Letter 211: "Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even [Sauron's] own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought." It would make sense that his dependency on the Ring went more than just physical.
Damn, this always happens. A good quote I really could have used in the video and one I have used on other videos :D . Thanks very much, I will reference your comment in my end of month response video - it's a great point!
@@TheRedBook Thanks! It's likely I remembered it from your past video. I'm glad you brought up the clarification Tolkien made that "one need not boggle at Sauron's spirit carrying the Ring back to Mordor." I feel like he's saying "use your imaginations, people!"
@@HenhousetheRed Exactly! A lot of people take it as some cop out on Tolkien's part but it should not be so confusing to imagine Sauron being able to manipulate this physical ring containing his spirt. Still, a video will be good to talk about that in detail!
Exactly, it wasn't just a tool, especially not to Sauron. It was a major slice of his own soul. The strongest urges of his ego were what the ring was physically made of. He would never dream of removing it, it was literally and spiritually a part of him.
This is a great point, but then how could Sauron not overuse the Ring and end up revealing his special power to Ar-Pharazon?
Compliments on pronunciation and cadence, the best on YT.
Thanks Phil :D . I must be doing something right if you've stayed subscribed for so long!
THIS is a great comments section. More info in it than most LOTR UA-cam vids!
I agree. The comment sections on my videos are so good that I started doing comment response videos recently. I don't see ones like this on many other Tolkien channels!
I think this may be something that Tolkien didn't initially get pinned down perfectly, and later made more clear in other writings. I *do* think the quote at 12:20 makes it sound like the Ring was "waiting for him," and we *are* told that he was merely a spirit. But later Tolkien clearly decided Sauron had had it with him in Numenor, so if you want to call canon Tolkien's "latest words" on a subject, then just have to accept that, in spite of the earlier writing and in spite of the fact that only his spirit escaped Numenor. It's all well and good to craft fancy explanations and justifications, but I suspect the truth is that when Tolkien wrote the first stuff he just was in a different frame of mind. He was a human author, and therefore imperfect.
First video with a brand new microphone - I hope it's somewhat of an improvement! Maybe an end to annoying comments about volume or quality (one can hope). This is another video about Sauron and another video about Númenor. Please leave your thoughts and comments and I will once again pick the best for my Appendices video. It's best to leave your comment as its own and not a response to this comment.
Support The Red Book - www.patreon.com/theredbook
Sound good . Its clearer but the previous microphone wasn't bad . It was good but this is Better. Or sharper
@@shanenolan8252 I also never noticed anything wrong with the previous one. But i guess it does sound clearer now.
I had to lower the volume.😂 Great new mic!
Very clear but I had to lower the volume
@@SA-bq1us People having to turn the volume down is definitely a big improvement over saying they couldn't hear me at max volume.
Great work!
I think either way, the outcome would've been the same: the corruption of Numenor. I've always thought of Sauron having some or all the Nine during the Black Numenoreans' worship of Melkor and creating some of the Nazgul way back then, which he would send to Umbar.
Thank you so much for making all these videos. They are so thoroughly researched and well put together, really great work. Times are rough for me right now but watching your videos before bed helps my anxiety and provides an escape into the lore of a world I love. Seriously thanks!
I'm glad my videos can have such an effect :D thanks for the comment!
I completely agree. I can't imagine Sauron willingly being separated from the ring. He didn't necessarily need it to corrupt the Numenoreans-- they were already 90% othe way there-- but it surely helped to turn them to him, as opposed to just turning away from the Valar.
And what reason would he have for leaving it in Middle Earth? No matter what kind of spells he might use to hide it, it would always be safest with him. Virtually no one could resist him while he wielded it. And he had poured so much of his power into it, he would have felt insecure without it. It just doesn't make any sense for him to have left it behind.
The new microphone sounds good. I used to always turn my volume all the way up to hear you, but this time I didn't have to.
I agree. I've never been convinced by the arguments about him leaving it. They all seem to stem from that one quote in The Silmarillion that I cover in the video - which doesn't even have to mean what many think it means.
Hopefully the volume is better for more people. I should (maybe) get fewer comments about it now!
Yeah, and even if he could do it relatively easily without the Ring... Why /not/ use it if he could? To give the Númenoreans a sporting chance?
@@anglerfish4161 Sauron raised the sea like a mountain and cast the mighty armada out of the sea according to the History if Middle Earth books. He was just playing with those egoist Numenoreans like toys
In-Depth and Polished, my man cannot miss.
Glad you checked out a more recent video. The one you commented on before was pretty old and I wish I never responded to a Screenrant article in the first place :D
@@TheRedBook Haha fair enough man, but at the same time you raised interesting facets of lore re Sauron and I enjoyed all 3!
Always took it as Sauron carrying the Ring off as a shadow might, with a breeze of air, travelling unseen from the lands of Numenor had he brought it with him to Numenor.
Well-done this was a great video as always.
I absolutely agree with you, and I love your explanation. I've always thought that, concidering what purpose it was made for, how much it mattered for him and how he was attached to it, it makes no sense for Sauron to leave it behind. And although I have a vague understanding of how he could carry it back, I'd love to hear you explanation of this dilemma - so accurate, heavily backed up by the sourse material, and neat, as always😌
I'll do my very best! It's a question I see come up time and time again and it would be cool to make a video good enough to answer the question for some people :D that's always an aim for these Questions & Answers videos. Being a reference used by others.
I always considered Sauron just as spellbound by the ring as anyone else who comes into contact with it, so COULD Sauron have even left it behind?
Tolkien was a very devout Catholic, and Catholic writers such as Rose Zimbardo said that he stood by standard church metaphysical doctrines (as developed most notably by Thomas Aquinas). These doctrines teach that there is a hierarchy of substances, which here we can oversimplify as Spirit and Matter. Higher substances can exert control over lesser ones, and Spirit is higher than Matter. Angels are of a spiritual substance (with greater angels having power over lesser angels, etc). But the upshot was that angels, being of spiritual substance, can move mere matter by (at a minimum) changing the location of physical objects. This is laid out (somewhat inconsistently) in Aquinas’ Summa Theologica and other books. Seems to me that we can import Catholic theology into Tolkien’s legendarium, and since Sauron corresponds to an angelic being, he should be able to transport a ring around without much trouble. At least that’s how I see it.
Your channel is the best Tolkien channel there is bro. I love every video. Thank you for the wonderful commentary and analysis
Very welcome, thanks very much :) !
Can't wait for it mate. When it comes to you and rainbow Dave aka Tolkien Untangled, I wait with anticipation 😁👍👍
I bet the Broken Sword can't wait to see this aswell. 😁
Thanks, Alan. This one took a while but I think it's a good video! Hoping others agree :D
"'Do not speak that name so loudly!' said Strider."
@@TheRedBook
Sorry I missed the premiere. Had to have a shower.
If you haven't seen it I recommend you watch young and and the elvish.
And twilight. Rings of power. I laughed man for five years minutes straight 😂😂😂😂😂😂🖐️
Excellent explanation. I would add to why the Numenorians wouldn't have noticed or felt desire for the Ring, the Ring was as you pointed out is visually plain and ordinary. Likely hidden by some mischief of Sauron from the eyes of Man and while the Ring was lost from Sauron it created desire in beings as it sought it's way back to it's Master while in Sauron's possession in Numenor it WAS with it's Master. The Ring could find no being in Arda that possesses Sauron's power and malice so there was no reason for the Ring to create desire in men. In short the Ring had absolutely no desire to be with anyone else and likely whatever will it seemed to have while out of Sauron's possession Sauron's will would have dominated that of the Ring anyhow.
Firstly, the new mic sounds great. As the professor himself said, not even Sauron was powerful enough to part with the ring. Being dispossessed of it destroyed his last physical body. As for carrying it back to middle earth his possession of it was enough for it to be with him. I have always thought this and indeed interpreted the taking it up again passage in the same way as you. I even like the awkwardness of the way he writes this in the Silmarillion, in places half remembered or unclear is how myth should come to us,again the beauty and genius of Tolkien shines through. Thanks and keep up the good work.
I always thought he took the ring with him and wore it on Numenor (as you state, Tolkien said that he did so it is hard to imagine he didn't unless perhaps he sent it away to Mordor during his time on Numenor). The question of how the dead and disembodied Sauron transported it back with him is far more of a conundrum and I look forward to your explanation! Also why Ringwraith armour didn't fall through them....
I definitely can answer that question and look forward to making that video. As for the Ringwraiths - easy answer is that they had physical forms - we just can't really see them! If you walked into a Ringwraith, you'd bump into them.
@@TheRedBook Well, then we will wait and see for the full video. You promised loremaster, you promised...
@@TheRedBook
I am not a big fan of Zombie Wraiths either.😒
Since three of the Nazgul where Numenorian Lords and the Nazgul appeared before the time of Ar Pharazon, do you think Sauron was in Numenor before his capture in a different form and lead to the shadow falling on Numenor?
Good question Ali. Well, I don't think Sauron ever went to Numenor before he was taken there as a hostage - mostly due to his reaction at seeing it. He really seemed to gaze at it like someone who had never witnessed such a thing before - filling him with hatred and envy. But, it's always possible!
As for the Nazgul, well Tolkien says "three were great lords of Númenórean race". Numenorean race does not necessarily mean "Men on the Kingdom of Numenor". By the time Sauron was handing out rings, Numenoreans had already settled lands east of their island, and it's entirely possible that these 3 lords were Men "of" Numenor but living in Middle-earth.
I wouldn't personally attribute an early visit of Sauron to the shadow over Numenor, it really seems to be their own doing at that time and it makes it more significant and powerful that they fell into their own demise. Yet, again, it is possible. A lot of this stuff is a mystery to us.
edit - Just to add. I may reference this comment in my Appendices response and give a bit more detail on my thoughts.
@@TheRedBook Do you think those great Numenorian lords were running independent states, or were they more like governors?
@@TheRedBookyeah I was contemplating if he brought any of the rings with him. I didn’t realize that the 9 were already around prior to him going to neumanor. Plus if he gave rings to people on neumanor you figure that it would be the king but their lives weren’t increased. And if it were regular men made sorcerers then I’d assume they would have brought them to valinor to fight the valar and then they would have been lost. But sauron didn’t need the ring to manipulate the elves. And they’re much harder to corrupt than man. So sauron being a maiar and a shape shifter i don’t think it’s at all necessary for him to need the ring to manipulate neumanor and cause it’s downfall. The maiar are extremely powerful. You think of luthien being only half and able to put morgath to sleep. Saruman was able to manipulate Gandalf and the white console with his voice. And they both were students of aule. Not that they got the ability to deceive from him. But they were both very capable at manipulation. Maybe you could make a video on if Saruman would have been able to cause the downfall of neumanor with his voice. I’d think he would be able to from the way he controlled Rohan. Yeah there’s a huge difference. But Saruman wasn’t even there personally. I don’t know if Sauron would trust leaving the ring in middle earth though. Especially with the elves knowing about it. Sure he believed no one could destroy it. But he did fear Aragon using it against him. I think he brought it with him. But I don’t think he needed it to corrupt neumanor. He’s got plenty of feats without it to come to that conclusion in my eyes. But yeah do you think Saruman would have been able to corrupt neumanor with his voice? If not what if he wasn’t limited in his power as an astari? I feel if he were at full strength he would have been able to do it easily.
Great post and very thought provoking. I must admit I always thought Sauron left the ring behind due to the quote 'there he took up again his great ring'. However thinking about the nature of the maiar - and what you have referenced as to be separate post - I will be very interested in your thoughts on how Sauron escaped as a spirit and carried the ring with him. I must say though I absolutely love the quality of your visuals to go along with each video. The art is excellent and fits the theme well. :)
Bit of an oversight by the Valar to destroy Númenór and Sauron's body, but allow his spirit to take the ring back to Middle Earth. I guess by the time he regained consciousness in spirit form, the ring was still on his body underwater and he knew where that was.
Fantastic ideas!
I never imagined that he would willingly part with the Ring. It’s quite literally the greater part of his power.
He would need it to exert his will enough to move so quickly in finalizing the ruin of Numenor, in my opinion.
What is more interesting is that he was able to carry the ring with him at the time, as a disembodied spirit.
Why couldn’t he have done the same after the Last Alliance? Had he been reduced in power too many times to achieve such a feat again?
I don’t think so. I think it had something to do with Isildur cutting the Ring from Sauron’s hand. I believe since it was the 1st act in someone claiming the Ring from Sauron, against his will, that the “Cutting of the Ring” may have been more than just physically separating the Ring from Sauron’s person. It began severing him from his power in a mystical sense as well.
I agree with you. Isildur physically removed the One Ring from Sauron whereas after the Fall of Númenór, nothing like that happened.
You are pretty much approaching my own thoughts on this too - especially in regards to the difference between Sauron on Numenor and Sauron in the Last Alliance. I was going to make a video discussing just when Isildur actually took the ring from Sauron as there are multiple answers to that. Perhaps I could end up making that first and then reference it in my Numenor video - or vice versa.
And yes, you hit the nail on the head about Sauron parting with the ring. Why would he need to? It makes no sense. It's out of character and doesn't fit with the situation. Of course he took it.
@@TheRedBook I very much look forward to your upcoming videos on this! Also, I think you brought up a very good point about the Ring. Who exactly knew of it’s existence, power, & significance? Everyone assumes it to be common knowledge, but I doubt that. Did Isildur intend to cut the Ring from Sauron’s hand or was it a byproduct of Isildur slaying Sauron with Narsil? We may never know. We do know that it soon passed out of knowledge, even amonst the Wise.
Edit: Actually (after cracking the book) the way the passage in the Silmarillion reads, it does seem that he did cut the Ring from Sauron on purpose, & that Sauron “forsook his body & his spirit fled”. Very interesting.
If you're going to discuss how Sauron could spirit the ring away upon his death in Numinor, I'd be interested to hear why you don't think he could have done that when slain during the war of the last alliance.
Because sauron had been "lain low" by elendil and gil galad previous to the ring actually being cut from his fingers. Plus this happened after he already had spent a large portion of his energy first creating the ring then recreating his phyiscal body after said fall of numenor
I don’t think he could take it with him because Isildur physically took it. I don’t think the Ring could be ever be rendered non-corporeal, that would defeat its purpose as a tie to the physical world. Tolkien’s description of Sauron’s spirit fleeing Numenor implies that he still had some power and influence on the physical world, probably, because he was still in possession of the Ring at the moment of his death.
If his physical form had been slain by Elendil or Gil-Galad, before he lost possession of the Ring, then he likely would have carried it with him in the same manner and simply reappeared shortly afterwards.
Not possessing the Ring greatly diminished his ability to draw power from it and thus when Isildur cut it from his hand he lost his physical form. In fact he was laid so low that he, temporarily, lost all but the feeblest attachment to the physical world. Nevertheless because it was not destroyed it still bound him to Middle-Earth and allowed him to slowly regain a significant part of his power.
He was not “destroyed” be the destruction of the Ring. He simply lost all ties to the physical world and his spirit was rendered so completely powerless that it could never rise again.
It actually makes complete sense that he must have had the Ring in his possession in Numenor.
A bigger question I have is why didn’t the Last Alliance attempt to find and destroy the rings of the Nazgûl?
@@robertstrawser1426 Apparently he drowned when numenor sank, why didn't the ring sink to the depths of the sea?
@@trekstarsam2494 Because Sauron didn’t “die” in the typical sense of the word. In the Akallabeth Tolkien states that “his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea”. He was robbed of his “fair” form and was never again able to take that form again, but he did have a physical form that could be seen and felt. When his fair form was destroyed he was still wearing the Ring and still at full strength. We know the Maiar could alter their forms at will, Sauron was especially known for doing that in the Silmarillion, this form he assumed was physical enough to carry the Ring out of the deep along with him. His “body” however would’ve needed a boat and, likely, was damaged beyond any usefulness.
It makes sense too that he must’ve had his Ring with him because he was able to rebuild a “body” as soon as he returned to Mordor. Unlike in the War of the Last Alliance when he lost all physical form and existed as a spirit that took hundreds of years, perhaps thousands, to re-incarnate. We don’t even know for certain that the shadow falling on Mirkwood indicated that he had an actual “body” or if he was just a black cloud of darkness and corruption moving though the woods. Up to that point, at least, he had absolutely no physical form at all. Even if the Orcs at Gladden Fields had found the Ring and managed to find Sauron we can’t be sure he could’ve taken it up immediately, although, he certainly would’ve “recharged” much faster becoming a far greater threat within a few centuries instead of taking nearly 3000 years.
@@robertstrawser1426 But he didn't lose all physical form. Only in the movies is that a part of the plot, he has his tyrant form during the war of the ring. Gollum even says Sauron laid his hands on him and burned him.
What do you think of the steampunk version of Númenor?
It's still on the video idea list.
Until I read the letter I had assumed he left the ring behind. And while there is no arguing with the author as to canon, I think it does boggle belief how he carried it as a spirit, at least as far as most of us understand a spirits ability to interact with the physical world which is why a further explanation was needed in the letter. Maybe there are different levels of being disincarnated for a Maiar?? It makes me wonder why he didn't just whisk it away from Isildur though.
I agree. Also the here would have been the danger of having the ring taken from him- he was a prisoner after all! What if they stripped him of everything as war trophies, unknowingly taking the ring?
People always do argue with the author. Take the widespread mistaken belief that Arda was flat before the Downfall. Tolkien himself is on spoken record in an interview as saying it was always a globe.
@@theradgegadgie6352 Oh...? And here I was thinking Tolkien especially brilliant for managing to combine both a flat and round world into the same cosmology!
@@YadraVoat So did he, probably, until he abandoned it.
Before I knew the Letters I assumed Sauron left the Ring behind. The story-logic points this way: if the Ring does not avail Sauron against Numenor, he must find another way to encompass its fall. "Took up again the Great Ring" reads most naturally as him taking it up again for the first time since his submission to Ar-Pharazon. So (with no authority whatsoever and contradicting the author's own explanations) I prefer to keep the Ring away from the Downfall.
A related question is: what happens with the Nine Rings? Do the Nazgul keep them? How does Sauron get them back? I guess the foundations of Barad-Dur have some pretty elaborate security systems but it would be interesting to know more.
The sound is fine. A couple of gentle comments: Voiceover guy sounds North American, he says "shown" for "shone". "Gesture" has a soft G. But thanks again for lovely content, great atmosphere as always
Great video as always! Thank you!!
Most welcome :)
Superb video!
Thank you Cameron :)
I know many people ask themselves if Sauron could carry Ring to Mordor how is it that he couldn’t just take it off from Isildur’s neck by spirit doing. The answer lies in his state of power, although drowned in cataclysm of Ellena island, he still had great power with him (obviously enough to still interfere with material objects as a spirit form but maybe only directly with those carrying the piece of his own soul/will). That same strength was used to make new clothes for him trough manipulation of great reservoir of his own power that could be used at any time without gathering or meditating, the One. So he could have used his own power on his own power in One Ring in order to carry it or create a new physical form. After his finger being cut by Isildur, that same strength needed to directly interfere with the One in near presence with it went away, as keeping the form “alive” needed continous power exerted trough ring, without it no power in electric circuit, and most esentially, that power, gone, for good. Thats why he couldn’t grab it from Isildur’s neck in spirit form. And for those who want dome scientific explenation of carrying the ring across the ocean in spirit form remember all Ainur before taking their earthly bodies, in spirit form, had impact in changing/making of Arda.
Great video!!!!
Awesome video! It always made sense to me that Sauron took the Ring to Nùmenor. One question that I would love to possibly see a video on is this:
What would have happened if Ar-Pharazôn was allowed to wage war on Valinor, and the Valar did not appeal to Eru?
Would the Numenoreans fight the Elves of Valinor? Without the interference of the Valar, who would win, and what would happen afterwards? Maybe the downfall of Numenor, while tragic and regrettable, prevented an even worse future for Middle Earth.
Thanks again for all that you do!
If an invisible ring wraith can biff someone with a mace or sword, or sport some nifty dark outfits, why shouldn't a temporarily bodily inconvenienced Sauron not be able to take his ring about with him.
Of ALL the aspects of suspending disbelief, why should THAT be the aspect that people say "Wait! No! That's simply not believable.
Huge islands instantly being submerged? Sure, fine.
A world going from flat to round? Bring it on!
Leaving his body, flitting across an ocean, then undisembodying himself, but now in a body that shows he's a naughty fellow? Surprised we don't see more of that! But he keeps his ring with him? What do you take me for! Do you think I'll swallow just anything?"
The ring the broke the camel's back.
Sauron absolutely took and possessed the one ring at all times and was , in my opinion, easily able to take it with him back to Mordor, he was after all an extremely gifted and powerful Mair spirit. So taking the ring and wearing it to me would be very easy for this Being of immense power to achieve! I also love your channel thank you!
It's nice to read a comment that seems to completely agree with what I have said in the video 😅 . I was quite surprised by how many people still said he didn't take it or couldn't return with it! Thanks :D
@@TheRedBook I don’t really understand how others don’t or can’t see all the magic and power of Sauron and the other powerful creatures of middle earth 🌍!
I think people like the mechanics being explained instead of just using their imagination. I get a lot of "This character couldn't have done this because at this other time this character didn't do it" as if everything regimented and exactly the same in all situations. I don't get it...
@@TheRedBook I totally agree and I really love your channel and content thank you so much! Without people like you I’d have to find time to read all the material and I just don’t have time but you can break it down and REALLY bring it to life for me so again thank you!
A Middle Earth RPG group that I used to be a part of a long time ago came up with our own head-canon for this part of the story...
In our version, Sauron took the ring with him to Numenor. He then began to corrupt Ar-Pharazon and his inner circle, bringing them over to Morgoth worship. Sauron then convinced Ar-Pharazon to desecrate the Hallow of Eru, the holy shrine near Numenor's highest peak, by erecting a statue of Morgoth there. This shrine, which was originally meant to be a private place where only the king was allowed to enter while making prayers to Eru, now became a secret shrine to Morgoth where Ar-Pharazon and the lords closest to him could meet in secret while planning to expand their cult of Morgoth to the wider populous.
Later, after Ar-Pharazon had left to make war upon the Valar, and the waves began to swallow the island, Sauron made his way up to the shrine. The statue of Morgoth within had an outstretched hand, with it's palm facing up. As Numenor sank, Sauron removed the one ring, set it upon the palm, and then through magic cause the stone hand to close a fist around the ring. Moments later the waves rushed into the shrine, washing Sauron away and smashing his body against the rocks below. When the waves receded, though, the shrine and the peak of Meneltarma were still above the water, the only bit of Numenor not swallowed by the sea.
Many years following the fall of Numenor, a group of pirates out of Umbar, blown by a storm, came upon this last remnant of the island. Upon entering the ancient shrine, the fist of the statue of Morgoth crumbled to dust, revealing the one ring. The pirate captain took the ring for himself, and as he did there was a great rumbling, forcing him and his men back to their ship as the peak of Meneltarma and the shrine now finally sunk below the waves. Once back in Umbar, the pirate captain used the ring to aid him in murdering rivals and bringing torture upon his own crew. The corruption of the ring, though, drove him towards uncontrollable levels of paranoia and violence to such an extant that he was eventually reduced to being an outcast and desert brigand, commanding only a small gang who followed him strictly out of fear.
While in the desert, this group was set upon by a ringwraith, who had been hunting for the ring upon it's return to Middle Earth. In this confrontation the ring bearer's gang fled him, and the ringwraith stabbed the ring bearer with a morgul blade, before disappearing back into the night itself. Now alone in the desert, and slowly succumbing to the morgul blade's effects, the ring bearer was overcome by a compulsion to head north. He forgo thirst and hunger, his mind disappearing into darkness, as he crawled across the Haradwaith and entered Mordor. His corpse-like body eventually reached Barad-dur and shambled into the tower, and with his last bit of energy he collapsed at the feet of Sauron's throne. As his body made it's final transformation into formless wraith, it blew away as dust, leaning nothing but the ring at Sauron's feet. And as Sauron, sitting in his throne now once again began to take physical form, the Witch King picked up the ring and returned it to his master's finger.
Tom Bombadil and Galadriel both show that a being of great personal power can actually make one of the Great Rings disappear, rather than the other way around. It's only because the One Ring is so much more incredibly powerful than Men and Hobbits that they disappear when wearing it. One could also say this about Elrond and Gandalf to a degree - in the latter case, hiding Narya so artfully that even Saruman couldn't see it to take it away from him during his captivity in Orthanc.
Soo true
In terms of Sauron taking the ring with him to numenor, I kind of figured that he would see that as his chance to really see what he could do with his ring. I think that is why he push things so far with them, because that was a kind of test run to see how far he could get them to take it
Here's a simple question to ask oneself, in order to clarify why Sauron *had* to take the Ring with him to Numenor: where the hell would he HIDE it at home, if he hadn't taken it? Who, or what, would he trust to guard it? Hewas on Numenor, after all, for FIFTY-SEVEN YEARS, according to the sources, and I can't imagine why he'd want to do without it, OR leave it unattended for even a fraction of that time.
Besdies, he clearly wasn't prepared to lose the ring when he eventually did later, at the end of the Second Age, so how could he be prepared for it now?
“Took up” is slightly archaic English for “Started using”, and does not imply the person did not have the object at hand. A master smith may take up his hammer and craft a fine sword. A king may take up his banner and march to war. A herald may take up his horn and announce the kings arrival. It means “wield”. So Sauron may take up his ring and start using it to gather his armies, etc. It does not mean he did not already have it with him.
Your videos are awesome
Nice use of midjourney for illustration ! good idea !
Haha was it that obvious? It's the strange non-faces isn't it?
@@TheRedBook yes, the four kings with no faces, i use this AI a lot, so i recognized some patterns. ^^ I had the same ideas form some videos of mine, and i did a lot, a very lot of tlkien related images ^^
I think you know how I feel about this topic, Steven. You are, of course, right as usual. I cannot argue with the case you presented. It was over when you quoted Tolkien.
Nevertheless I have some issues:
(1) Tolkien told us that Sauron has his maximum power whether he had the ring or not. Do you see where I'm going with this? That tells me he had the One Ring power even if it were left behind.
(2) I want you to explain how Sauron's ëala was able to carry the ring out of the depths of the Belegaer, but couldn't when Sauron's body lay on the ground after Gil-galad and Elendil cast him down. Joshua actually did a whole video on this topic for me.
(3) How could Sauron hide the power he wielded with Ring in Numenor. It is do evil and powerful, there had to be some sense that this bloke had something on him or with him. I don't think Sauron is capable of turning down the power of his Ring.
Love your video and new mic. Great investment!😁👍
Hello Enerdhil,
I'll probably pick up on one or two of these points in my response video but I'll briefly respond here.
1) I am unaware of any such Tolkien quote.Tolkien merely says that without the ring (while it still existed) Sauron was not diminished. This is not equal to Sauron being at his greatest. He was enhanced while he had the ring. If we call that "Maximum power" then Sauron certainly would have physically needed the ring with him.
2) A lot of people have asked this but I don't think both scenarios are the same. Sauron being able to do one while being unable to to do the other doesn't mean neither happened but I will expand upon this in the future
3) As said in another comment, I don't really believe this is a thing. I agree that certain individuals with keen senses and perception could see some "magic" at work. Like Gandalf seeing through Saruman's voice but I would not talk of turning down the power, or others just knowing something magical was going on. The whole point is that you would be falling to his corruption, domination, persuasion without realising it was happening. That's the whole point. It enhances Sauron's natural skills of deceit. If it made them more obvious then it's hardly an enhancement.
I won't be able to have a big discussion in this comment section about these points, but as I said, I may talk about them in the Appendices video.
This certainly answers how quickly Sauron was able to corrupt Ar-Pharazon and his court
While I'm on the subject, I want to ask. In the relevant passage, it is stated that while Ar-Pharazôn took Sauron as captive to Númenor, he also took his servants. How can you explain this issue? For example, was the Nazgûl also taken to Númenor?
That quote doesn't mean he took Sauron's servants. It means that Sauron being taken as a hostage was for himself and all his servants. Basically, a way to control Sauron and all his servants in Middle-earth, by holding the Dark Lord himself in sway.
I couldn't imagine any reason for Sauron to leave his Ring, the greatest amplifier of his power and part of his self, behind in some cupboard in Baradûr. Like you said, the Númenorians knew nothing of it and I'm confident he would have been able to keep it hidden on his person if he needed to.
Leaving it in a cupboard with a note in Tengwar saying "Sauron's secret stash, KEEP OUT!"
@@TheRedBook He left it under the "LAIR, SWEET LAIR" doormat, no one ever checks there!
@@anglerfish4161 That's where Saruman also keeps the infamous keys of Orthanc. Hiding them from Gandalf.
Where does the artwork you use come from? It’s beautiful.
Links to all artwork are in the description of each video, definitely go and check out the pages of the artists!
It is an interesting question. However, it isn't the main question here.
If he took the ring with him to Numenor, then when he died with Numenor he was able to carry the ring away in spirit form.
If this sequence of events was true, how did he lose the ring on Orodruin when he was killed. He should have been able to carry the ring away again.
After he returned to Mordor, he used the ring to create a new physical body. In effect, unlike his earlier form which he had manifested of hisself, this was not Sauron's body, but the Ring's body which Sauron then inhabited while it existed and it only existed while he wore the Ring. When the Ring was cut from his hand, he no longer had the power to manifest enough of a physical body to take the ring from Isildur who now had physical possession of it.
@@jimhart4488 "After he returned to Mordor, he used the ring to create a new physical body".... This still doesn't answer the point of the question, how could he have *brought* the ring *back* if he was wearing it when Numenor was cataclysmically destroyed and sank? Remember, Eru Iluvatar was the cause, the ring would not have been able to survive Eru's wrath, especially considering Sauron's (essentially an angel/demigod) body could not survive.
If he *did* bring it with him, it would have sunk beneath the waves and would have been trapped under a (albeit small) continent's worth of debris... that is, if it even left remains on Arda at all; Eru Iluvatar *did* completely remake the shape of Arda after all....
@@cheesehands3112 Well, I took the point of esmann's question to be why couldn't he take the ring away from Orodruin. That is the question I tried to answer. As for Numenor, see my primary comment on this. I don't believe he took the Ring to Numenor, so there is no question as to how he brought it back as he had left it in Mordor.
@@jimhart4488i don’t think that’s the case. It seems so in the movies. But he had a physical body during the lord of the rings. They didn’t show it but golem talks about it. I haven’t read the books myself but I have watched tons of videos on Tolkiens work. My understanding is Gil gilad and elindel actually landed killing blows on Sauron. Dying in the process but yeah Sauron was on the ground half dead when ilsildor cut the ring off his finger. I think it’s because ilsildor had possession of it. So Sauron’s spirit couldn’t overcome an actual physical being possessing it. Idk maybe I’m wrong.
@@forfun6273 There are plot holes in LOTR, in both the books and movies. Sauron's connection to the One Ring and his ability to take physical form is one of them. Tolkien left inconsistencies and contradictions in both the published works and the notes. The Hobbit did not begin as a precursor to anything. It was just a story to entertain children. It grew into the Lord of the Rings, and as it did, the already published account created problems for the larger story. The Necromancer in The Hobbit seems to have been a physical person in the Hobbit, and the Ring was just a magic ring that made one invisible. The Ring took on greater importance in LOTR and had far greater powers than simple magic, and the Necromancer became Sauron, who forged the Ring and poured so much of his strength into it that it left him weakened when he lost it. But just how was he weakened? And exactly when? These things are not clearly stated and much is left to the reader to work out. It is not a surprise that different readers can work things out differently.
Quite personally I always felt that sauron's comment about driving the numenoreans into the sea, was very similar to when Frodo told Gollum if you ever touch me again you shall be cast yourself into the volcano. Almost like he saw it, or through sheer force of willpower just made it happen. I believe this is one of the main traits of the ring, is either seeing into or affecting the truth of things. Quite frankly, I think the ring allowed Sauron to see the numenoreans drowning, but he did not realize in what context, and that he would also die. This would also connect to what he did with denethor, driving him to Madness by showing him bits and pieces of the future that were not what they seemed. In summary, my conclusion is, do not argue with Sauron.😂
I like to think of Sauron persuading a sea serpent or other creature to bear the ring from Numenor across the sea to Middle Earth, maybe in its belly. Then from Umbar, say, an unknowing man, orc, or warg might have carried the body of the serpent to Barad Dur, where Sauron could gut his catch and "take up" his ring. Completely made up, but a fun way to connect the dots in my head.
Greatly looking forward to the upcoming video you mentioned. I think my own confusion re. the forms of the Ainur stem from certain characters like Melian and the Istari. If it's said they are Incarnate, is the idea that this form is really Fanar, or does Incarnate strictly mean Hröar?
That's definitely the kind of stuff I will talk about but I can say that yes when one of these beings becomes one of the Incarnate, they can't just abandon that form as they would with a raiment. They are tied to it. It's an explanation of why Saruman when he abandoned his duty didn't assume some other form. He came to Middle-earth as one of the Incarnate and he only left that form when he died in The Shire. Melian interacted with the world in a way where she physically became a part of it. She couldn't have become pregnant without being one of the Incarnate. The very act itself having her rely more on that form but in a far more "pure" way when compared to the likes of Sauron and Morgoth who became physically bound to the world through evil deeds and the will to control the physical.
@@TheRedBook excellent, I think this is also really tied to another conversation about exceptions. I look forward to all of your content, but these sort of breakdowns for me truly expand upon my own limited understanding. Thank you!
I think the thing to remember is that at no point in time was he ever separated from the ring while his body was being destroyed. The reason why he was so important after his body/soul was destroyed last time was it was separated from the ring. The only thing he lost from Numenor was the ability to look pleasing.
Tolkien does also say that each time Sauron rebuilt himself, he did lose a part of his 'will' - or strength of spirit. "The effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realsation of its imagination". But this also doesn't mean that without the ring (While it still existed and was owned by him) that he was weaker - which a lot of people seem to think most likely due to the movies.
@@TheRedBook I think he wasn’t weaker in total sense but he had difficulty accessing his power/abilities/imagination on how to do it. If you chop off my left hand I will have difficulty to writing but it’s a matter of component. Reattach it and I should be able to write fine. It is interesting to compare the nearly indestructible ring to the indestructible soul. I think the ring did something for Sauron, besides affect people. Wasn’t there mention of Sauron being enhanced by the ring’s existence? I think that may be a book reason to conclude without it he’d be weaker (though not correct). I thought I read somewhere in the new materials (morgoths ring maybe) released that Sauron with the ring was nearly on the level of a vala.
@@albdamned577 Not enhanced by its existence but enhanced through its use. So, Sauron after making the ring was Sauron. Sauron using the ring was Sauron enhanced. Sauron without the ring was Sauron. Sauron with the ring's destruction was severely diminished Sauron. This is something I will talk about in some video about what the ring actually did for Sauron, explaining why he made it beyond "To dominate others". Quite a lot to cover as you have hinted at.
@@TheRedBook yeah that is a good way of describing the “power up”. Lol it just occurred to me Sauron “forgot” how to look good. Beyond the controlling of the other ring wearers, I always figured that the ring essentially did what the other rings did, slow entropy (not the word Tolkien would use but essentially it’s that). The way morgoth is described in the beginning could crush and destroy middle earth literally. He prevented existence from settling into 1 state. If you are able to conserve that power level into the future, you could do anything. There’s some sci-fi stories that explore that thought.
It has always been just a bit of a plot hole concerning the manner in which Sauron’s disembodied spirit managed to whisk the physical, indestructible ring away from the abject, tempestuous destruction of Numenor by Eru Illuvatar. Tolkien equivocated just a bit, noting (as the host has mentioned) that it was no great stretch of the imagination to posit that a ghostly Sauron somehow lifted the ring and carried it away when his spirit fled the cataclysm to Mordor.
It wasn’t one of Tolkien’s better explanations, in my opinion, because the very bedrock of LOTR later centered so pivotally upon the conundrum presented by Sauron’s physical separation from the ring, and his inability to locate it, find it, get hold of it, etc. No small consideration.
Though Sauron’s ring may have been able to survive the maelstrom of Numenor’s destruction, would not the One Ring have vanished with the rest of Numenor’s physical ruins and remnants, as just one more trifle? How would Sauron’s disembodied spirit have somehow gravitated back, after the catastrophe, to an eradicated locale, to simply hone-in on the ostensibly buried/vanished ring and take it away? That begs the question as to why Sauron’s banished spirit could not have simply dragged the ring along with him before Isildur managed to get his hands upon it after the “death” of Sauron following the battle of the Last Alliance. If Sauron could drag the thing, spiritually speaking, from the fury of Numenor’s destruction, then surely he could have nicked it and fled when Gil-Galad and Isildur & company finally overthrew him, physically. It would also seem to be easier for a disembodied Sauron to hover-about and pursue Isildur, keeping track of the ring’s subsequent movements at the very least.
Tolkien didn’t spill much ink on the matter, seemingly because he thought it best left to reasonable imagination. But there seems to be no question that Sauron brought his “Precious” to Numenor. Perhaps it is best to posit that, upon recognizing his imminent physical destruction with the oncoming obliteration of the kingdom, Sauron prepared some enchantment ahead of time that would allow him to “spirit away” his ring after being separated from his body. Otherwise, it’s just a minor plot-hole that can be overlooked, in my opinion.
Certainly, when Sauron abandoned Numenor’s collapse as a spectral being, he did not have the aid of his later henchmen (The Nine) to help him secure the ring. He obviously made some artful provision to save both the ring and his own spiritual life-force, even as Numenor was obviously under the swift and irrevocable wrath of Illuvatar.
My understanding is that while Sauron was stuck in a spiritual or ghostly form, he could still interact with the physical world, just in a diminished capacity, especially when he still had the ring in his possession as an anchor. This would help explain why after the ring was lost to Isildur it took thousands of years for him to reform as a physical being.
To put it another way, he may have been able to move a twig or speak in a whisper even as a ghost, but not pick up a hammer or command servants (beyond the nine), and thus grabbing and carrying back a ring wouldn't have been beyond him.
That said, once the ring was destroyed, his connection to the physical world broken, and the best part of his inherent strength was lost, then he became wholly impotent to return to a physical form.
TLDR, Sauron as a disembodied spirit after the fall of Numenor, while weaker for having his first physical form destroyed, was still stronger than it was after being killed again and losing his ring to Isildur, and again when the ring was destroyed.
Was he dead or dying when ilsildor cut the ring off? I know the movie isn’t right. But I haven’t read the books to know for certain.
Thanks for the video.
The only thing I am wondering about: How did he manage to bring the Ring to Mordor as a spirit? How did he do that? Otherwise it really makes sense that he took the Ring to Númenor...
The Ainur shaped the world itself without physical forms - they exist naturally without them. Sauron being able to move a ring containing his spirit is one of the least impressive things he'd ever be able to do. But as I say in the video, I will cover that question in a video of its own.
@@TheRedBook Thanks! Looking forward!!
i imagined Spirits lie on a spectrum in how much they can interact with the seen/physical world. And even though Sauron's physical body was destroyed, because he put so much of himself physically into the ring (so much so that upon the ring's destruction Sauron lost the ability to take physical form and interact with the seen/physical world entirely)
The Barrow-wight could touch things, like Frodo and his companions and clothes, swords and treasure. Somehow the severed hand was animated.
My favorite line in the Silmarillion was when Al’Pharazon commanded him to come “and Sauron came.” It’s chilling. Nope. Not afraid. Not cowed. Just strong in his own power. He knew he could master Pharazon, ring or no.
Another example of a Maia carrying something without a physical body would be Arien, who “forsook her form and raiment” and carried the sun into the sky.
Though I completely understand why people who’ve only read the quote from the Silmarillion would think this. It’s not too hard to believe that if Sauron could convince the Gwaith-i-Mirdain he was an emissary of the Valar without using the Ring, then he could also deceive the already falling Númenoreans. And I don’t know if the letters are more conical than Christopher Tolkien’s edit if the Silmarillion, since surely he would have read all the letters and have been cross referencing that information with other notes and drafts. Given the tremendous level of detail and long span of time over which this material was written, it’s not hard to believe that there could be some inconsistencies. They seem so few and far between when it comes to Tolkien only because he was so proficient in making new ideas fit into older ones so we aren’t trained to believe he makes mistakes.
Taking up the ring again- is used in the archaic sense by Tolkien. The meaning is rather like taking up your sword, that is, to gather up your weapons and prepare to use them. Since Sauron wasn't actively using the ring to project his power at the time he would have had to take it up again, not unlike a warrior that may keep a weapon (on the mantle or even on his person) ready to take it up again in a time of need.
Speaking of Sauron surviving the fall of Numinor. What do you think he thought happened? Would he have thought it was an act of Eru or the Valar? I would think that experiencing such an immensely powerful act would have an effect on how he sees the world.
Yes, not only did Sauron know what had happened but it directly influenced his plans going forward. By the time the Istari arrive, Sauron believes the West (and Eru) have pretty much abandoned Middle-earth and left it to its fate, the Changing of the World makes Sauron think Aman's removal is some sign that Middle-earth is now on its own. He's wrong, of course.
I think the Shadow of Morgoth to be so powerful that evil creatures cannot long repent in Middle Earth. It's said Sauron did for a limited time after the fall of Morgoth when Eönwë told him he couldn't pardon another Maia and that he had to return West, but he didn't go.
In another video people asked, were Orcs irredeemable? The way Tolkien wrote them, yes. Assuming one surrendered, the peoples of Middle Earth were to treat them with mercy and not torture them, it said. But there is no tale on whether one did to live out its life peacefully in captivity. Gollum was no orc, but he didn't take to captivity. If the Sons of Elrond continued their quest to eradicate orcs from the Misty Mountains, then perhaps some orc-child or female begged for mercy and they had to take them back to Imladris (Rivendell) and keep them alive in dungeons, if they didn't fight or flee on the journey.
The One ring could change size depending on who wore it. It could slip from ones finger if it desired to do so. This means the ring could change form. Who is to say that Sauron, the master of the ring could not change its form to anything he wished? Sauron himself was a shapeshifter. Sauron and the ring are one.
I think it's easy to imagine that Sauron would be able to hide the ring from the view of others if he willed it. It's one of the least fantastical elements of Tolkien's stories in my opinion.
@@TheRedBook Agree with that as we saw Gandalf and the others able to make their rings invisible or unseen. Disagree with it changing into something else, like a hollow ball to float to the surface.
His physical form was destroyed in Numenor. Unless he had some great scuba gear that could counter Ulluvatar. The minds of the Numenorians were already twisted at this point. Manipulation would've been easy at that point.
Unfortunately I boggle, whether Tolkien thought I need do so or not, when I try to visualise a ghost float a ring across the ocean in a non-comical way and I also find it difficult to reconcile with what happens after his next death.
Quite a few people feel that way about it. I don't personally find it so strange but I am looking forward to sharing thoughts in a video about this strange event.
My thought has always been that Sauron left the ring in Mordor. Being a captive and hostage in the power of the Numenoreans, initially posed a risk that the ring would be taken from him even if the Numenoreans were unaware of what it actually was. So he would have left in a secure place in Mordor. I think his connection to the ring was such that, though he could draw upon the full power of the ring when wearing it, and because he had poured much of his power into the ring he was much weaker without it, he could still draw on some of its power even if he was not wearing it. After the destruction of Numenor and the death of Sauron, his spirit returned to Mordor where he used the ring to form a new body. In this new body, formed by the power of the ring, he had to physically possess the ring to maintain the body it created. In other words, this body was an embodiment of the power of the ring which Sauron's spirit inhabited. When Isildur cut the ring from his hand and severed the connection, the body disintegrated and Sauron was unable to fully manifest in physical form without the ring. Sauron was still a Maiar spirit and still powerful, but because now most of what remained of his power was in the ring, he was much weaker without the ring than with it. But while it was lost, or possessed by Gollum who did not use it to exert power over others but was content to eat fish in a mountain cave, Sauron slowly gathered what power he could manifest to control the Nazgul and reclaim the Dwarven rings from which he could draw power as well. When Gandalf cast the ring into the fire and read the words, it seemed to awaken the ring and Sauron became aware of this increase his efforts to find it, both to regain his form and to keep it out of the hands of someone who might try to use it against him (though the only ones who probably had the strength necessary to do so were other Maiar like Saruman or Gandalf).
I have not read anything that would say Sauron could still use the ring when he wasn't in possession of it. Tolkien also says Sauron was not diminished without it (he just wasn't 'enhanced').
I also don't really agree with this idea of the body being bound to the ring. Like other fallen beings who were incarnated, he willed a shape once again and had a physical form but that's a form that could still be slain - which we see at the end of the Second Age. There's debate about when Isildur actually took the ring from him but I lean towards it being when Sauron was already mortally wounded and was still within his body - the severing of the ring causing some major shock to the system as it was being taken by another living thing and not just remaining on his body as his spirit left it.
Sauron also had a physical form in the Third Age while the ring was not in his possession. Which seems to dismiss the idea of a body having to be made to tie it to the One Ring. He doesn't have to regain a form, he is physically sitting in his tower during The Lord of the Rings. It also wasn't throwing the ring into the fire that had awoken some desire to find it within Sauron - the desire came from finding Gollum and finally understanding that the ring was still around and even having a name and place to focus on for a search.
@@TheRedBook Did he have a physical form in the Third Age when he did not have the ring? I can't recall anything that says that. All I can recall is that he "took shape" which I read to mean a kind of ghostly presence, but not a solid form. I don't think we know what shape he took while in Barad-Dur other than he was perceived as a giant eye as portrayed in the movies. We do know that he poured much of his power into the One Ring which would suggest he was diminished without it.
The Ring being thrown in the fire didn't necessarily awaken something in Sauron as much as it did awaken something in the Ring so that it wanted to return to Sauron. Until then, it seemed to content to stay with Gollum or Bilbo.
What I meant to describe was a changing relationship between Sauron and the Ring between the Second and Third Age, and after it was taken but Isildur, a change in Sauron himself diminishing his ability manafest physical form--which could have been due to the shokd of having the Ring cut from his hand.
This interpretation makes psychologically total sense. Sauron would not part from the OR when he was going to surrender to Ar Pharazon.
However it doesn't solve what is for me the biggest contradiction of the LotR : if the OR comes with Sauron after his death in Numenor, why doesn't it come with him when his finger is cut off by Isildur ?
Actually the latter is less fatal than the former because nobody "dies" when his finger gets cut off. So what is the fundamental difference between these 2 events ?
I don't think Sauron would have left It behind in Middle Earth upon his arrest by Ar-Pharazon; would you leave the most powerful piece of you in a lock box thousands of miles away, either unguarded or guarded by deviants? But once he changed his form fair, would he need to continue its use? Probably not; The minds of Men were greatly weakened by this point in time due to hundreds of years of unrest with their mortality- a spiritual depression. Even gollum knew he only needed it at times ( feeling the burden it caused during use) and stashed it away though close by always; I'm sure Sauron understood this even better. Maybe The Ring was so powerful that, like any addiction, it had indelible negative effects, even on Sauron.
Though not on his finger but in a pocket, like Bilbo, or a chain like Frodo carried it, The Ring chose to stay with Sauron and since it was no where stated that The Ring was forcible separated from its bearer, Sauron, followed him to Mordor after the flood. In this way, Sauron remained in possession of the device and could later actively use it once he was sure he, and It, were concealed.
Just like the addict doesn't display his devices in risky company. Once alone, in the recesses of their dark places, they employ that power to whatever ends. I don't think Sauron even needed to wear It into battle but possibly did so as a fortificant. Why would someone, something like this Dark Lord need fortification?? Had he worn The Ring so long in his concealment that it had done the negative work and made him less confident without It? Was his constant wearing of The Ring his undoing.
I have no clear ideas past this and have yet to do due diligence in reading. I read a lot but am a poor maker of study time. Thank you for giving us wonderful stories and doing all the hard work.
My belief is that he took the ring. Why wouldn't he? The Silmarillion text is confusing but your explanation of your interpretation is very convincing as is your explanation of why no one else took note of it.
I've never understood why Sauron's ability to take the ring with him after Númenór's destruction is questioned. Garden variety ghost stories often have them able to affect physical object. Sauron is a powerful maia with a strong connection to the One Ring. Why wouldn't he be able to take the ring back with him?
haha yes you are basically in the same boat with me on that one. It makes sense to me that Sauron could carry the ring off as a spirit but it is a common question and I am looking forward to expanding on my thoughts about it.
And I also agree completely with your simple "Why wouldn't he?". I've never read a convincing argument as to why Sauron would abandon the One Ring when taken as a hostage...
My problem with all of that is when Numenor sank, and he fled disembodied to wherever, how did he take the ring with him, assuming he had it with him? No fingers, what was it on?
How did the Ainur shape the world without physical bodies?
@@TheRedBook Right. even in the modern folklore of ghosts and haunted houses, disembodied spirits can make noises, disturbances and move objects. I don't see why this idea seems so far-fetched to some people when it comes to Tolkien's mythos, which is chock-full of "magic" and spiritual forces.
I don’t want to sound arrogant, but this is 1 of those times when I ponder how unimaginative fans can be! Having never thought about this before, seeing your video pop up made my mind work quickly.
Maybe he swallowed the Ring, then regurgitated it at a safer time on the island? Maybe he disguised it as a simple gold piercing on his nose or ears? Not very dignified for Sauron, I know, even resembling modern goth/punk fashion! What do you think of these alternatives?
Of course, your answer is simplest: as a Maia, he is powerful enough to make The Ring invisible like Galadriel did.
Now I have a related question for you: *What should have actually been done with Sauron after he surrendered to Ar-Pharazon? What should have been done in the given context, with the arrogance of the king mixed with mistrust and secrecy with the elves?*
It doesn't make sense for him to come out in battle alone (or surrender) without it, though that has been the thought with regard to the line. More likely he had it until death and as his spirit reformed near his body, it was still on his remains under the sea. So either he took it in spirit-form like a Ringwraith carrying cloak and knives or he summoned a sea monster like the Watcher in the Water to return his remains to Middle Earth. If he spent an age next to his undersea body, then that could explain how the Ringwraiths could still be active without him.
From a "devil's advocate" perspective, he might have left the Ring behind as a sort of insurance policy, knowing that if it still existed in safekeeping, he couldn't be utterly destroyed. He went in surrender, after all, and though he did plan to overthrow Numenor, he had no way of knowing the extent of the Valinorian response, and he must have considered the possibilities of being captured by members of his own order of being- what would they do with a captured Ring?
I've never felt that anyrhing said Sauron didn't take the One Ring with him; merely that it makes little sense how he got it back to Mordor, afterward. It seems weird that his defeat at the hands of Elendil and Gil-Galad was somehow more damning than literal divine intervention, yet he could reform, and recover his Ring, and carry it back to Mordor. Did it roll along the road, from the west coast, all the way to Mordor? Did he follow the newly curved earth, and come up in the far east we know so little about? His spirit could wield it, yet he didn't skulk near Isildur, and reclaim it when the King of Gondor and Arnor was slain. He had supernatural power, to be sure, but sadly it's never explained what all those powers can do.
I don’t think Tolkien’s quote in The Silmarillion implies any period of disuse of the One Ring. “Again,” in this context, can easily be read as a resumption of use or a continuation of use in a new setting, i.e. back in Mordor. Sauron had been using the One Ring before capture by Ar-Pharazon, he took up the use of his ring again in Numenor, and when Numenor was obliterated, Sauron’s took up the use of his ring again there. There is plenty of room for nuance, and Tolkien makes it abundantly clear that Sauron had the ring in Numenor. As for spirits carrying the ring, the Nazgul themselves were sent to retrieve it however they might. They had no real bodies, yet it is clearly understood that they had the capacity to bring the ring back to Sauron.
I assumed there was no way Sauron could've taken the Ring as he couldn't have transported it back. But this makes sense.
"When His Spirt of Haterd arose from the Abyes.Borne on a Dark Wind He Returned to the Tower and Took Up Again His Ring.But His Rage was Not Less.For Never Again could He Appear Fair to Elves and Men.Herafter His Power was Terror Alone.Black and Burning Hot With a single Yellow Eye. Was His Form Now"
Never though of this question. For the algorithm.
Sauron having the ring does not diminish his deviousness in Numenor whatsoever as the creation of such a ring was devious in and of itself - so “naturally he would have had the one ring”.
Well reasoned :D
I actually did read the Silmarillion passage to mean he left the Ring in Barad-dur. It seems unnatural to me to think that the phrase only refers to him not using the Ring during the very brief period after the fall of Numenor. That said, given what Tolkien says in the letter, the ambiguity is clearly resolved the other way. The only thing I still don’t really buy that Tolkien says there is that he would have used it to corrupt the minds of the Numenoreans. The point of the Ring was to influence other ring bearers after all, so it seems odd that it would also give him greater influence over other people. You could argue that he needed it because so much of his native power was in it, but this seems difficult to square with how easily he influences Saruman, a much more powerful entity than Ar-Pharazon, without the Ring. None of that means he wouldn’t take the Ring, of course, but it’s one of the few things where I don’t quite accept what Tolkien says.
The existence of the ring corrupted Saruman, who was especially wise in ring lore, Saurons possession of it was not a necessity.
The One Ring allowed Sauron to dominate the other rings, and so had no purpose in Numenor but... So much of his "self" was poured into the ring that having it with him made him complete and maximized his power. As for whether any one knew of the ring, it was a plain gold band and so who would pay attention to such plain trinket in a land of such wonders. His taking up the ring once back in Mordor simply meant he put it back on to wield it.
Agreed, I really can't imagine he would leave the Ring in Mordor, I guess he could leave it with ringwraiths but I don't think he would leave his "source of power" behind. But I am curious how he carried the Ring from Númenor to Mordor, guess I will find out in your future video, btw new mic sound great
Thanks :) I have been told it's a vast improvement.
As for that topic - I feel bad not covering it here. Though, it most definitely will be a video as I have a few Sauron/Numenor video ideas written down. It's just such a commonly asked question that I think it's worth focusing on it completely in its own video.
@@TheRedBook Understandable, looking forward to that video
Anyone else thing Sauron should have just taken back a nazgul ring & give Ar-Pharazon a ring of power? And once he turns Numenor evil, keep it as his greatest servants rather than trick them all to getting killed?
I think the reason Sauron didn't did this was because he hated the line of Beren & Numenorians for defeating him so irrationally wanted their destruction.
I had not considered that the Numenoreans would not have learned of Sauron's Great Ring during the War of the Elves and Sauron. The Rings of Power were the prima facia reason for the War. The preservation protocols were Sauron's intellectual property and the Dark Lord wanted to take possession of the fruits of his IP. I wonder what Gil-Galad told Tar-Minastir about the cause of the conflict. If the Numenoreans did not know about the Great Rings, did Pharazon (not worthy of the Ar-) not know who Sauron really was? Bringing a dude who was said by your ancestors to regularly shapeshift into a werewolf (among other things) home with you, on a boat sounds unwise on its face, much less that same dude having "the Deceiver" at the end of his name. I suppose at the end of the day, they were peas in a pod, an yet it was a pod in which there could be only one pea.
@Al B Damned @The Red Book Sauron may not be deminished by not being in possesion of the Ring BUT I strongly suspect that the physical seperation (also maybe the "forced" seperation of the Ring by Isildur) did hinder him to use it effectively and to rebuild his body as fast as he did after Numenors destruction, since it was his primary source of Power.
I would suggest the forced seperation of the Ring as a paralyzed body-part: yes, it is still there (hence he is not directly "diminished" when not physically in touch because it´s not destroyed) but accessing its power became much harder (hence he takes much longer to manifest). This also makes sense in a way that Sauron/Gandalf as Ainur actually were great spirits and a physical appearence to interact with Arda and its inhabitants did bring limitations/dangers to them.
Saurons "rapport" to the Ring(I imagine it as a weak cognitive link) is still possible with it as a seperated "part" of him BUT that is probably about it... How strong could this "rapport" truly be if it does not even give Sauron the ability to, at the very leaaaast, vaguely show its location for Sauron to find it? -> extremly weak I would guess.
Also the lore is often not very clear or even contradictory and the relationship of Sauron and his Ring is a good example:
In LotR (The Shadow of the Past) Gandalf tells Frodo that: "This is the One Ring that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power."
To conclude: to say the forced seperation of Sauron and his Ring would have no negative effect in his power/usage of power is not tenable.
EDIT: whoever reads this, my mentioning of a paralyzed body part should not be mistaken as offense. It is just hard to compare a spiritual being living in the physical world to a completely-physical being such as us men.
it depends what you mean by power though.
If Sauron without the One Ring is just Sauron and with it he is Enhanced Sauron. Then surely after thousands of years as Enhanced Sauron, it's removal from his direct influence would mean he had "lost power" even if he himself wasn't diminished and returned to being "just Sauron" ?
Also, power can mean more than inherent natural will/influence/"power". Sauron's power stretches to his subject, his land, his empire. Sauron without the ring was not as great as he was with it but again, that doesn't mean he himself was weaker - he just wasn't stronger.
Still. I take your points on board. Especially in regards to Sauron's physical form - already causing some sort of weakness - yet allowing him greater control over the physical world and its inhabitants.
@@TheRedBook "wordly power" such as armies/wealth can definetly be taken into consideration of the "broader" term of "power".
But I was speaking about his "inherit power" as a great spirit.
And yes:
Sauron + Ring > Sauron - Ring
but at the same time my reasoning from above gives very strong indication that
Sauron - Ring != Sauron(before creation of the Ring) *if not even*
Sauron - Ring < Sauron(before creation of the Ring).
In the citation Gandalf speaks directly about the loss of the Ring and its connected impact on Saurons (likely inherit) "power". Just losing the enhancement-effects of the Ring would not lead to losing the control of his orc-armies (~ martial/worldly power) BUT if the direct /easy access to the power of said Ring is not given anymore.. that would in turn lead to a loss of "spiritual/will power" as well as to the loss of control/domination over his orc-slaves.
If Sauron had left the Ring behind in Mordor, how could he have stopped one of his henchmen from taking it for himself? Or how could he possibly have hidden it there so he could be sure nobody else could get it/find it? Some kind of super magical spell? Possibly. But surely he wouldn't have trusted ANY of his henchmen with the thing he'd put a huge amount of his power into, and I doubt that he would willingly leave it, even with the most powerful spells to hide it - spells can always be broken if you know how.
I always assumed he just keistered it. (Oh, just the thought)
🤘🧙♂️🤘
Maybe Sauron's just very persuasive.
He certainly is. If Tolkien had said he never took the ring, I'd have no problem accepting it. Sauron was a great deceiver before ever forging a ring.
@@TheRedBook Yeah, Sauron's smart. He knows how to play men like Ar Pharazon like a fiddle. Inserting himself into the power structure of a colonial empire that already runs using quasi Sauron like methods and principle seems like an easy task. "Wealth, power, glory, you can have it all! Look at how magnificent and glorious I am, and you humbled even me!" Building up the Numenorean ego doesnt seem very difficult at all, and Sauron's been in this business a long time. He has all kind of esoteric knowledge to offer them. His gameplan was so brilliant. I think he couldve reigned as god king of Numenor and therefore the world pretty much forever if he hadnt overplayed his hand. Invading Valinor was a crazy risk even from Saurons perspective. If I were him Id want to leave the Valar well alone lol. I think the Numenoreans are at their best with their backs to the wall-like Isildur or the later Rangers of the North-and at their absolute worst when theyre powerful and secure. You even see this in Gondor.
I've always wondered why the Valar didn't intervene when Sauron was brought back to Numenor as a prisoner. Wasn't there still some kind of standing warrant for his arrest after the end of the First Age? The Valar must have known he was there. For that matter, why did Iluvatar allow Sauron to escape yet again when he destroyed Numenor? Tolkien's divine powers never seem to do a thorough job of dealing with enemies from their own ranks. Oops, Sauron escapes to spread death and misery. Again.
To be honest, I think there are points in Tolkien's stories that don't work perfectly, and we just have to accept them for the sake of the larger narratives. The question of where the ring was during the fall of Numenor is one of these.
Maybe it was sent back to middle earth on one of the ships of the faithful. Or even a bit before through an emmisary.
actually didn't think of that, could Sauron need the ring to stay material somehow? at least, before Numenor drowned. it is a very interesting question that i never seen brought up before. i am willing to see what this video theorizes.
No, he didn't need it to have a physical form but after losing his physical form, the presence of the ring certainly aided him in retaking shape far quicker than he would have otherwise. This is an issue with evil beings becoming "of the Incarnate" and I will try and discuss this in more detail when I talk about Sauron taking the ring from Numenor as a spirit.
@@TheRedBook keep the good work! love it when you post about the Dark Lords. i think i saw you talk Morgoth with someone called Girl from Gondor or something, i need to get to that one.
Definitely my favourite topic, as my list of videos shows! Got so many Dark Lord ideas for videos that I could dedicate the channel to that. And yes, that was a good chat, give it a chance when you can!
@@TheRedBook can you someday take a look at the Vile Eye's character analysis on Sauron? i would love to see what you think. it is a bit sad that it focuses more on the story than how the character became what he is. the degradation from the most powerful Legendarium character to a shadow of his former self. a good vid, but i found the "character analysis" kind of lacking.
@@enocescalona Is that the same guy who recently did the Morgoth one? I watched the Morgoth one as it was recommended. I'm always up for analysing these characters. I can check out his Sauron one since I didn't know that existed.
Regardless of that Prof Tolkien wrote "Sauron naturally had the Ring with him," it makes little sense that the fëa of Sauron could carry a material object back to Barad Dur when his hröa had been destroyed. Sauron KNEW he could corrupt the Numenoreans and worried that someone would take the Ring from him while a prisoner. His power was undiminished while not wearing it. The question overlooked is how did he continue to dominate the Nazgul without direct control of the Nine? There is no statement in the letters or published works that Sauron kept the Nine with him when going to Numenor. It makes more sense to leave his Ring and the Nine locked in Barad Dur, guarded by the Nazgul who were already slaves to his will. Tolkien revised many bits of the story and this is likely one he could have clarified if confronted with this contradiction. In contrast, Eru RETURNED the fëa of Gandalf to Middle Earth in the same place as his old hröa fell. Thus Gwaihir was able to return the reintegrated wizard PLUS Glamdring to Lorien for him to be robed in white. Sauron had no such intervention.
You think it's strange that an Ainu could manipulate matter without a physical form? I don't know why this confuses so many people.
Having him physically killed in Numenor but somehow having the ring fly away makes no sense.
If his spirit can control the ring and physically move it, then he also should not have been able to have lost it by having it cut off his finger.
I read your comment after watching the video and decided upon his death he was "unconscious" for a time. Then upon regaining consciousness his spirit was with what was left of his body under the sea. He then waited until he was substantial enough to move objects, like the Ringwraiths or Barrow-wights. Alternatively, he could have used his shadow to summon a sea monster, like the Watcher of the Water, to bring his body to Middle Earth. Once back in Barad-dûr, he could rebuild it. As to Isildur cutting it off, he may have regained consciousness as a spirit after his body was cast into the fire, if that's how they destroyed it, which I think likely. But he couldn't find the Ring as either spirit or body rebuilt without seeking for it. Then either the Ring itself or by command of his shadow betrayed Isildur to the orcs.
What I want to know is: did Mordor always look like a volcanic dump? If Sauron declares himself the King of Men, why don’t men question why he lives in a rusty tower next to an active volcano, surrounded by a wasteland of ash, with lots of orcs - who clearly hate men - in tow. You would think men would be like, nah I think this guy doesn’t really represent our be interests. Or did Mordor look like the nice part of town back then?
But, if Ar-Pharazon was not aware of Sauron's ring, how then was isildur aware of it, let alone seeing it on Sauron's finger and being able to cut it off?
These are different events at different times, involving different people. A lot of people keep comparing Sauron on Numenor with Isildur and it's not a 1:1 thing. Sauron didn't seem to be hiding the ring in Mordor, Isildur knew what the ring was, Sauron had already been defeated and Isildur took the ring from his body. There's loads of reasons :)
If Tolkien himself says it in a letter then so it is. Anyway, Sauron did not need the One Ring to corrupt and overthrow Numenor. It was a tool created to gain dominion over the Elves via the rings of power. I would agree Sauron was unlikely to leave it behind though. Yet even without the ring, as is told in LOTR, Sauron was able to rule over basically all mortal Men who were not descended from the Elf-friends of old.
How come he was able to take the ring back to Mordor in the form of his spirit after his physical form was destroyed at the destruction of Numenor, yet he could not do the same when the ring was parted from his physical form when Isildur cut the ring from his physical form at battle of the last alliance of Elves and Men?
Tolkien wrote that the One Ring was with Sauron in Numenor, so that is the canon. Sauron's form was destroyed in the Fall of Numenor and his spirit escaped with the OR by some power of the Maiar. That's supposedly the canon. So, when Isildur cut the OR from Sauron's hand and destroyed his physical form, why didn't Sauron's spirit once again escape and take the One Ring with him? In both cases, Sauron's spirit is separated from his physical hand, but in the first the OR is taken by his spirit and in the second not. If Sauron escaped with the OR when he is in Numenor, then the LotR trilogy makes no sense.
What if Sauron saved a ring of power for the king of Númenor?
The Nazgul were around long before Sauron went to Numenor.
@@TheRedBook True, but what if he spared one of the rings for the king.
@@oldmangranny5oldmangranny56 - The Nazgul first appeared years before and Ar-Pharazonjourned West with the Great Armada, he wouldn't have had a ring.
The Ring remained in Mordor. In Akallabeth, the penultimate narrative in the Silmarillion, we read that, first, Sauron lost his physical body at the fall of Numenor and, second, that he "took up again" the Ring when he returned in Middle-earth:
"But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr..."
I really don't understand why some people leave comments on these videos when they haven't watched them. There's nothing to respond to here because... I talk about that in the video that you are commenting on.
@@TheRedBook I did. It's just that Tolkien doesn't leave us any space for conjecture here. I mean no disrespect. I just say that your fan theory is nice but does actually contradict the source material. That's all.
It's not a fan theory. I'm quoting the author himself.
But that's the problem. Tolkien's letter is contradictory. Even if I were to agree with you that somehow the ring survived the destruction of Numenor (which would mean that Sauron's ring is more powerful than the power of the god Eru) and that his spirit took the ring to Mordor, why didn't Sauron take the ring from Isildor when he died ? If he couldn't take it from him while Isildur himself was wearing the ring, then he could definitely find and take the ring from the Great River.
@@nikolakulic3810 - It's not contradictory. Tolkien never directly states anywhere else that Sauron didn't take it. There's that one quote from the edited SIlmarillion that can be interpreted in multiple ways. There's no other quote saying he didn't take it but there's a quote saying he did take it. I don' know why people are choosing to ignore Tolkien's own words here.
The ring "surviving" Numenor does not mean it is more powerful than God. That's a strange interpretation. Eru wasn't killing Sauron or destroying the ring, he was destroying Numenor and changing the World. Sauron and his ring got caught up in it. Why would this destruction unmake the ring??
Why do we assume Sauron knew the ring was in the river? Sauron never found the ring after he lost it. Sauron taking the ring from a living being who has claimed it and taking it from his own destruction on Numenor are two entirely separate events. Being able to do something at one time does not mean that the exact same thing should or could happen at another time under entirely different circumstances. Even if I couldn't explain Sauron not being able to take the ring as a spirit at the Last Alliance it does not change that he still did when he died on Numenor.
Hm, no I don't see it like that. In addition to the part about "he took up is ring ..." the Silmarillion states, that he became a council through his wit and strong will. The ring wouldn't help in that, because it only corrupts people that wear the lesser ring. I interpretate the whole thing as Sauron left the ring in Barad Dur kind as an anchor, and like a reminder to his servants, that he will be back "soon" (I guess heavily guarded by some Nazgul).
A ghost handling the ring like you suppose, doesn't make any sense. If that was the case, he just could have snatched the ring out of the hands of Isidlur, flew away with it, and rebuilt a body somewhere else. He wouldn't even have lost on inch of his powers. But he had to flee, powerless and shapeless.
Maybe the problem is those lost tales series. As far as I remember, some of the points and exclamations in the lost tales are contradicting what is written in the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings. And as far as I remember, Tolkien himself dismissed the lost tales.
My points are not from the lost tales, they are from the author himself in Letters - written at a later date than the text used in The Silmarillion with the line that is completely down to interpretation "took up". He says Sauron took it and I've still never read a good enough reason to say that he didn't take it.
Well now I have to Google how he took the ring from Numenor as a spirit
Might be faster than waiting for my video on it 😅
@@TheRedBook I love how you perfectly built that up and knew we'd all be disappointed 😂
Believe me it will be way better as its own video :D !
Whats the difference between „Tar“ & „Ar“. My name is Tarik.
Both mean the same thing "high, royal, noble" basically a title for a king. Tar is Quenya and Ar is Adunaic. This change occurred when the Men of Numenor started to drift away from the Elves.
unfortunately, there's always a niggling conflict at the heart of the legendarium...if sauron-as-spirit was able to return the ring from the ruin of númenor, why wasn't he able to flee with it after he was slain by elendil and gil-galad in the second age?
Different time, different place, different situation.
@@TheRedBook true...lol, only eru ilúvatar knows for sure, i suppose. 🤣
been going through all your videos, and you answered my question already: tolkein specifically said (in a letter, i think?) that sauron took the ring with him to numenor, and that makes perfect sense actually...he couldn't bear to give-up, even temporarily, possession of the ring. i guess the reason he was able to keep hold of it during the downfall of numenor, and _not_ when isuldur cut his finger off is *intent.* isuldur made an intentional act, which happened to take possession of the ring, so sauron wasn't able to keep hold of it, but that wasn't the case in the temple of melkor. anyhow, thanks for all your amazing work helping us understand the legendarium. ✌🏻😎
But how did he bring the ring withou a physical form? I think that may be a problem in the continuity...
The Ainur can interact with the world without taking physical form, they helped shape it before taking bodies.
Maybe if someone claims the ring for themselves Sauron can't do anything about it until they die or lose it. I'm just trying to make sense of it.
Cheers
Just realized the first Tar of Numenor ruled 400+ years 😅
Until this video, I had actually concluded with equal conviction the opposite.
Sauron was fearful of Numenor and their power and sophistication. How could he have any confidence as a prisoner the ring would not be detected and taken from him?
To the point of him needing possession of it to dominate people, this clearly is not the case as he successfully dominated his entire 3rd Age following and beings no less than Saruman himself without it.
And obviously it would have sunk when his body was destroyed, and he would have had a much easier time reforming his body when he returned to Mordor and “took it up again” versus the later scenario after Isildur took it.
That logic and the actual text on him taking up his great ring again after the destruction of Numenor had me conclude he left it back in Mordor with the Nazgûl, etc.
That said, the Tolkien letter apparently states the opposite and the arguments on him being able to hide it, etc have merit.
A plot hole either way I guess. Even Tolkien isn’t perfect…