Norway Is Down to Folk at Eurovision
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
- How does folk music contribute to nation-building? Are “Fairytale” and “Ulveham” basically the same song? What is a bailiwick?
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Man, Norway actually did something bold with folk music instruments and beautiful vocals sung in their language, and they finish dead last. This is why we can't have nice things.
Same sentiments for Estonia and Armenia. These are the kind of Eurovision songs that actually deserve to be on top just for the fact that they actually REPRESENT the country instead of embodying the style of another by singing bland standard english songs...
Ulveham is a pure gem .
To overthink further could this be why many former Soviet and former Yugoslav countries also send folksy music, to reinforce their national identity, to reclaim it from the nationalities they were assimilated with for so long
Yes, you cannot convince me otherwise!
I am glad Croatia went away from doing something folksy, artsy, or poppy this year. I am still not sure what Baby Lasagne is, but at least it is not what they usually send
@@jakieemI mean it's for sure not folk, but there's clearly a folk aesthetic and you could even say the lyrics invoke some folk themes (not just because he sold his cow, but because it's talking about feeling forced to leave the country life behind in a modernizing world). So you're right but also I wouldn't say they left folk completely behind.
(I could talk at lengths about the lyrics of that song, I think they go a lot deeper than a lot of people realize)
Fanny, I heard term "turbofolk" from Rambo Amadeus in early nineties. Belgrade is capital of turbofolk.
which is probably why the 90s became so folky and ethnic and ballady, the eastern bloc came to show off their nations as much as possible now that they were just given a chance and western europe, who was adjusting and trying to not get relegated, was probably trying to follow along so they laid off on the europop (mostly, uk didn't give a fuck and spain did have a lot of natural ballads already that decade)
Ulveham is one of my absolute favourites this season, I hope they go far ❤
😭
@@cheese_enjoyer2441 ABSOLUTELY robbed 😭
I'm literally grieving. Biggest rob of Eurovision
Sometimes I underestimate how much research you put into these. Big respect.
Not enough.
Great presentation, but some - especially some latter points - are either entirely wrong or entirely out of context.
@@SebHaarfagreFor example?
How to forget the wonderful "Nocturne". It is old, but it fits perfectly in this tradition, in a time when all over the world, the New Age music was in the charts. The New Age music suits perfectly that mythical Europe.
In Norway, the expression "Helt Texas" means out of control.
Yes, but not in a bad way, it is based on our love for western movies, cowboys and Clint Eastwood movies... we respect a good duel with revolvers over a dispute, but also, we think that is "wild". So Texas has been linked to "wild", like a renegade who gives his principles higher value than the law.
This was not overthinking. - It is a very nice lesson for people that like to learn.
As an Australian who has watched Eurovision since Gina G, I don’t understand how the best Eurovision UA-cam channel is American. 🤷♂️
Haha. This is just another example of the wellknown and historically resistant nonlogic of eurovision, in every way. If you just think it over it makes absolutely sense😊
and I dont understan why Australia and Israel is in this competichion at all... its a riddle
I believe it is because a true objective analysis of Eurovision and its related contents needs to come from someone who can do it from a true objective point of view.
Hahaha, the non-logic of your answer shows you're a true fan♥️🙋♀️😊
@@heidifarstadkvalheim4952 As to Israel, basically because it's part of the EBU [European Broadcasting Union]. Note, however, that even though Morocco [which competed once and then never again] and a lot of other Middle Eastern countries are ALSO in the EBU...because Israel, which has been hated intensely since its inception [and not without good reason] by most of the nations in the region, gets to participate and win, the other nations of the Middle East refuse to take part in Eurovision, though I'm pretty sure as EBU members, they still have to broadcast it). As to Australia, even though they are well outside the confines of the EBU, they get to join the show because they're massive Eurovision stans and have been so for years, which led to them being given a courtesy run in 2016. They did so well that they've just kept being invited back since.
Good Norway! If only Sweden could send a song in swedish.
Ehem when froken sunsk ehem ehem
@@ariw8612 Fröken Snusk usch. No thank you!
Exactly! They missed a huge opportunity to have Molly Sandén sing in Swedish at ESC 2024. I mean C’mon.. she IS the voice of Eurovision the movie.
@@evolv.eyea it was kind of a huge missed opportunity, she has an incredible voice.
NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! I am a Swede and the lyrics in the Swedish songs are … 🦨🦨🦨🦨 But even in English the lyrics stinks.
The nøkkelharpe is a very old instrument. Some historians believe it has its origins in the middle ages. It was used a lot in the 1600s in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and also Germany, but was replaced by other instruments. The only place it still was used was in Uppland in Sweden. The folk music in Norway wasn't created during the 1800s, but documented and experimented with. The national romance era wasn't just in Norway, but also in Europe and the USA.
I have felt like a lot of the folk inspired song entries in MGP showed in the video, have been kinda cringe (not Secret Garden, Rybakk and Keiino) and I have never voted for any of them even though I like folk music. Ulveham on the other hand is good. It wasn't made for MGP originally, and that really shows. I think they won because the song was different from the other entries, Gåte is a well established band and the stage show was the best this year. Gåte is said to be one of the best live bands in Norway. So Gåte didn't win just because it is folk, but because they are a very good band with a lot of experience with a song that is different from the usual pop song.
It`s called the jew's harp or jaw harp in English ;)
@afrog2666 It is not though. It's key harp in English ;)
I love the song. Gåte is amazing.
As a major in Medieval Scandinavian Culture with lifelong fascination for Medieval Ballads, your analysis was spot on. The ”inception” layers was a great way to explain how the medieval themes get wrapped into folk music in post-medieval times. To add a nuance, themes and characters in medieval ballads revolve around saints (Catholic saints) and magic; magic in Catholic times has the older layers of pre-Christian religion wrapped into it (that’s where elves, trolls, werewolves etc. come from). So there’s one more inception layer there :)
It is this subject matter that places the origin of Medieval ballads in medieval times, even though they were written down later (as you wrote, the oldest in the 16th century). This is because in Protestantism the saints’ lives are not a lively theme anymore and can’t generate new topics. So if a song about ”Karin” has themes associated with the life (and martyrdom) of St. Catherine, that amalgam originates from Catholic times. Which in Norway end in 16th century.
Ok, the other thing I wanted to ask is for you to review Italy’s entry and please include a continuation of your European folklorist / culturologist analysis with that song. As it definitely has folk roots, people have pointed out taranta and pizzicata as where this song stems from; as well as articulation and accent that make me connect it with Neapolitan dialect - but I don’t know much about this area so some digging in would be super interesting.
Thank you for this super interesting essay on European culture and the role of folklore in expression of national identities, as manifested in the entries countries send to ESC. You gave me so much joy to ponder these topics again. And yes, you are definitely making a very solid point there.
Thanks so much, and I appreciate the additional information! It was fun to learn about your history and folklore and I barely scratched the surface. - MB
You say you have a major in history (though more specified) yet you say yourself he's spot on *AND* that what emerged had layers of "pre-Christian" (meaning Norse) layers wrapped into it. I assume you know Norway was christianized around 1100?
Your comment does not add up.
Either you say he's "spot on" and you wrote something completely different than what you meant, or he's not "spot on". He's saying more or less that Kulokk and folk music was "invented" in the 1800's (300 years after the start of the farmer communion and 14 years before its end, mind you) as a part of National Romantic efforts to create a national identity which apparently never existed nor did music.
I have OCPD. I get annoyed, because nothing of this makes sense, nor that you get so many likes.
Is it me who misunderstood?
Because I took everything literally, at least I think I did.
@@SebHaarfagre Well, obviously, folklore is not "invented" in the 1800's. Folklore has always existed, but we don't have reliable records of what it looked like and sounded like until it started to get recorded - which happened to a large extent and in the most significant way in the 1800's, with some examples from earlier centuries as well. During this recording process, there is a lot of choice and random and a lot of personal decisions that influenced what got written down, how it was shaped and modified, what the performer recalled and how the performer also had modified (most often unintentionally) what was handed down to them by the oral tradition. So it is true that the shape in which we recognise Norway's folklore today was created in the 1800's, but that doesn't mean that an individual song or a singing style originated in that century - in fact, we have no way of knowing when they did. We can only rely on circumstantial evidence, which is tantalizing and frustrating.
We should also recognize that "folklore" (oral song tradition) contains a mix of different categories / genres and themes, which may themselves have very different origin. For example, the "lokk" singing technique developed in the countryside as a way for people to project their voice far away. The medieval ballad, on the other side, partially stems down from earlier aristocratic circles and was initially made popular through the court literature. How do we know that: because of the subject-matter which is traceable to written sources, which required literacy to become popular, and literacy was connected to the more "elite" levels of the society. Some of these sources have been the lives of saints, and those sources were only "a thing" during Catholic times. The arrival of protestantism in Norway pushed this kind of literature to an underground and exclusively to oral transmission, where the themes got transformed by many many instances of personal interpretations that are inevitably done by the oral performers (often times a carrier of an oral tradition, e.g. folk singer, doesn't know that they are changing something about the song). Another, and very important, indication we have about the medieval ballads being "medieval" and not of 19th century origin, is their similarity across nations which had historically close contacts and exchange of written literature. This exchange is known to have happened between Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and even England. This is why today it is possible to "map" many of the songs in the national compendiums of medieval ballads to each other across these countries.
Finally, within the body of what we call "medieval ballads", we also recognise different types and can trace the origin of their subject matter to different sources. I gave the example of the so-called "natural-mythical" sub-type, which contains mythical beings like elves and trolls. It is obvious that it was not Catholicism which produced the idea of "elf" and "troll", we do have records of these creatures as far back as in the Elder Edda, and all the way until the Middle Ages we keep seeing them in late-medieval sagas (themselves often set in Christian times). It has been interesting to me personally to trace how the meaning of what "elf" is has transformed through these sources, from what seems to have been a high-status deity in the Norse source (with all caveats that even Norse sources are primarily written down during Christian times, however, we do also have runic inscriptions with mentions of elves as well, so we know at least that the word existed and in a "good way"), to a nature spirit in its later transformations, associated with danger and hostility towards humans. But now I digress: the ballad "Ulveham" does not belong to this sub-type; but is dealing with subject of magic (witchcraft), curse, murder, and "evil stepmother" / "evil mother in law" (a very popular theme we see across the medieval ballads of all countries I mentioned above). I don't know how far back the origin of this motif goes. I would look into how witchcraft was treated in society and by the Church during Catholic vs Protestant times (neither approved of it, of course, but their disapproval manifested in different ways), and would also look at what sources we have about the tense relationship between generations (specifically for women) and whether there was a change there, or it's always been a problem.
@@overthinkingit You're partly coming across as if Norwegian culture as a phenomenon was invented in the 19th century. That's, quite obviously, not true. Before that, it was considered less important, and as you correctly identify, collecting and promoting the culture was a part of a very conscious nation building.
This resulted in the national romantic movements across art forms, where ancient traditions in architecture, art, music, and literature was brought into new works inspired by the general romantic movement and by the idea that each nation was special. Far from CREATING the traditions, it made them suitable for upper society. This happened several places, think Grimm in Germany, or even your own country's idea of manifest destiny.
Oral traditions have been continuous since the early viking age (approx 800 AD), and the interesting part here is how both stories, music, dialects, and art styles developed differently across Norway. Due to Norway's geography, most people didn't travel far from their home, which meant traditions varied a lot. The medieval ballads were a mix of old Norse culture, folk culture, Christian legends (more than actual religion), and jesting, and were told in different variants. The ones we know today have been compiled and reconstructed from several sources. But the important point here is that even if they weren't _collected_ until mid 19th century, that does not mean that they aren't older. The variations in their telling is an indication of age, as is the topic - shapeshifting is very much a typical Norse theme.
Melodies were often not fixed to the text, and it's therefore safe to say that a ballad that has been orally transmitted in various variants for centuries has been performed with wildly different melodies. That does not mean that they are not old, just that they do not have a fixed tradition. By the way, this goes for almost _all_ music until we got notation systems that could annotate more than chanting.
Nøkkelharpe is a Swedish 15th century instrument, whose use diminished during the 19th century.
Other than that, your analysis isn't totally off. The synthesis of folk traditions and modern tradition to create something modern and national is definitively something that Norwegians started to do during romanticism, and continued to do in contemporary music, jazz, metal, and pop. I believe you are correct in pointing out that this is something typical for nations that need to break free from something bigger, and I think this is also why you find these strong traditions in Norway and Balkan who broke free from colonial powers during the national romantic period. Swedes, on the other hand, haven't really done anything great with their folk music except some jazzy stuff. France, Italy, Germany, and Spain, as you correctly identify, have had more of an interest in creating a cultural identity around _being_ the central power.
@@silviarasheva253 The "person turned into a wolf for the specific purpose of making them kill their brother" motif dates back to at-least the Eddas, as that is what Odin does to two of Loki's children. Also another song and motif but Torsvisa/Torekallvisa is just the plot of Þrymskviða, with some mutations (names have morphed or been changed entirely, the woman Tor(ekall) has to impersonate is now usually stated to be his sister, rather than his wife SIv, etc.).
Also isn't the idea that this all came from the aristocracy generally considered outdated? Like it's not like the medieval non-aristocratic Scandinavians were all utterly illiterate. One academic book I have on Norwegian rune inscriptions even makes notes (about the medieval, post-viking-era) of if the inscriptions seem to have been made by someone with an academic background or not based on their rune usage and style. Meaning there was a parallel non-academic rune tradition. In fact runes were used for writing in Dalarna i Sweden until the early-1900's, with, as far as I can tell, no aristocratic backing. Indeed it was after the spread of more formal education that this rune tradition died out. But sure, the average Scandinavian peasant could probably not afford a hundreds of pages long collection of hagiographies. But a) hagiographies were often/usually collected from oral traditions in the first place, b) it's odd to assume the average Scandinavian had no idea about the stories of the saints, who in their day-to-day religious practice were often about as important as Jesus or Mary themselves, or had no stories about these figures of their own, c) a lot of the stories about saints featured in such ballads often have little relation to their formal hagiographies, and d) given all that all you'd really need is one priest who enjoys telling the stories of the saints to his parish and then those could spread and get turned into songs, which are more practically useful for memorization and transmission for an oral tradition, but would be purely artistic for a literary one.
Ulveham is the best song Norway has sent since 2006!! I love Alvedansen, and the Norwegian language ! Alvedansen is my all time favourite Eurovision song 🩷🇳🇴🩷
Very surprised that in a discussion of folk music at Eurovision, you didn't mention the juggernaut of Moldovan folk music that is Zdob şi Zdub. You Overthinkers didn't think that they would make it out of the SFs in 2022, but they didn't just make it out, they took all of Europe (and the assembled media room) with them. Their success within Moldova, and their 6th, 12th and 7th placing on the Eurovision stage suggests that their form of folk resonates within their culture, while also speaking beyond their national culture into a broader European musical heritage.
Let's not be too harsh.😊 Their apology video was epic and I loved it. Love the channel as well ❤
I fell in love with Gåte back in 2001 when they first appeared. They were friends of my friends, we were all in high school then. I have seen them live 5 (?) times, and it’s always magical:)
What I love about this song is the absolute conflict between good and evil, sort of like sitting around a campfire when it's really dark. The song is so brutally evil, suppressive and dark, but then you have the image of the milkmaid on the mountain top singing the cows home, which is the absolute symbol of innocence, freedom and carefreeness. Another Norwegian band that masters this balance is Ulver. I particularly like the album Kveldssanger.
"Overthinking It" is THE BEST and deepest Eurovision related channel here on UA-cam ♥.
Absolutely
Fun fact: On Alexander Rybaks first tour he actually did a Gåte cover. I think it was "Ola I" from their second LP Iselija (2004).
That was a lot of overthinking! 😲🤕 Very well done 👌
Gåte’s music is a dark, mesmerizing and stunningly beautiful take on Nordic folk. Where they flirt with elements from traditional Norse and pagan music as well as from more modern genres like rock and industrial.
The chorus is a socalled KULOKK, - the maiden calling the cattle in from the the mountains. The roots of this song is a thousand years old.
This reminds me of Nightwish, but instead of vampires, its vikings
Bro I am from Norway and i literally couldn't put my finger on why this song gave me crazy goosebumps every time. You explained it perfectly.
I love my country's song this year but I do think part of the reason they were chosen was that they are an established household name in Norway, everyone knows the band Gåte, they stood out from the crowd being the only "harder" song, and the live performance slaps!
I hope they do well at eurovision this year as it may encourage other known artists in Norway to take a chance at eurovision. I also think they are in a genre of their own this year, closest song being Ireland which has a completely different feel.
About the spelling; is that A with an O on top the same as the Danish one? Like in the band Maneskin?
Sorry, i cannot get it out of my keyboard, but i think i do know the sound because it also exists in the Frisian language.
Tia.
@@LeafHuntress the Danish and Norwegian alfabet uses the same characters yeah, always thought måneskin came from Norwegian but you're right it could come from danish. An equivalent English sound could be the a in small or the o in organ.
@@LeafHuntressyes it is the same letter and sound :)
I didnt know Gåte, and none of the freinds I talked to had either. If it was about the artist being known Keiino would probebly have won.....
@@adelheidbreidvikMaybe a generational split. Gåte was pretty big around 2000-2010 so younger generations might not know them
My winner this year
Seeing Gåte's performance at the national final and hearing the song for the first time it quickly went to my number 1 spot and a definite favorite!
PS, LOVE your work, guys ... can we Aussies possibly entice you to slap on the sun-screen, grab a stubby and give us a deep dive into Australia's "One Blood" any time soon? Would dearly love to hear your take on our entry this year. IT'S CULTURAL!!! THERE'S DIDGERIDOO MUSIC AND NATIVE LANGUAGE!! AND a bloke in a skirt .... XXX Big Hugs!
Yes! An Overthinking deep-dive into One Blood is a must! 💕💕
Yes please!!! I hope they do it!
Super interesting take! What you said about France is quite accurate btw, there's this sense of national identity based on the "chanson" era, which ended becoming the stereotype people know France for and the only thing people expect from France on Eurovision lol When we sent Füllen I knew there was no chance of winning, but honestly I didn't know it would be SO poorly received, it's like people got really upset they didn't get their Ratatouille soundtrack for another year.
I loved Fullen! (sorry, can't figure out how to get the dots above the u 🙄). I thought they were totally robbed - they were SO good!!!!
@@aekelly oops I wrote it wrong myself, it's Fulenn without the dots and two n's xD
I voted 20 times for Fulenn, didn't make the blindest bit of difference...
I loved it, the language, the story, the song. My countryfolk liked Voilá*(double douze points de Pays Bas!) but it was too ... for me. I knew about & liked La Zarra** & love Slimane,(not this song btw) but all of them are so formulaic.
Fulenn was different, daring, like dancing in the forest with the devil. 🙂
*have you seen André Rieu & Emma Kok with Voilá?
** especially the postcard with her riding a Frisian
@@aekelly If you want to get the ü, you need to first type " so shift plus the key to the right to the one next to the L;
then follow with the vowel of your choice: ä, ë, ï, ö, ü, ÿ. It also works with capitals: Ä, Ë, Ï, Ö, Ü.
So while it's not necessary for the title of this song, you now know how to write Überhaupt. 🙂
I think culturally popular countries like France are actually at the disadvantage here. Take me, a Ukrainian: nobody has a clue what Ukrainian culture is supposed to be like, so we won with "1944" - a song with Crimean Tatar lines in lyrics. Almost no one but small minority in the country speaks it, but most foreigners wouldn't be able to tell because they know nothing about us.
You, on the other hand, are at a disadvantage because your culture (or, at least, a simplified version of it) is represented everywhere, so when you presented an aspect of it that didn't fit international expectations it left people confused. The only way would accept it, if only you would continue to send chanson.
Thanks for mentioning Spanish Tanxugueiras! 🥰
Terra was the best song, IS still the best song. I'm Dutch & still annoyed that i missed out on the chance to vote for that. Luckily i can listen to their other songs.
It's not only that they are folk, they are god damn GÅTE! Legends in the alternative rock/folk rock scene that even young norwegian punks like me respected 20 years ago... Seriously, where have they been since then?🤔
Point is, this is partly a comeback thing and a nostalgia reaction too, I believe.
Last place, even with one of the most technically difficult performances. I thought the public votes would save us, but no, they just are not that into music or something 🤨
I have feelings about this.
@@overthinkingit I am overthinking it. The gyroscopic drum and bass from Switzerland was awesome, but I thought Norway would be an actual contestant, all though on somewhat different premises.
Should’ve gotten top 10 at the very least. I gave all my votes to Norway from Switzerland
Norway was my second favorite. I can't believe so few people voted for it...
As a German I really would like some folk Elements in our Eurovision-Songs, would be much better, then the generic radio-pop, Germans seem to love.... On the other Hand: the most well known type of Folk in Germany is bavarian Volksmusik, and that stuff is very allergic to modernity and ... ,you know, ...bavarian😐. I won't mention the other reason, why music, which invokes tradition and Patriotismus is kind of difficult for Germans...
I think it's time you get over with "that other thing" - although my country was on the receiving end of that hing, it was almost a century ago, and Germany did put an effort to make it up for it afterwards. Most of us living now are born when all was over.
I see no reason why some Turks in Berlin can be proud of their motherland to the point it sometimes looks like they have no connection with the country they actually live in (or even are born there), and ethnic Germans cannot.
And I think that reluctance can be counterproductive, in a sense that people who are actually proud of being German, yet conditioned to avoid expressing that pride, and on top watching how immigrants (not just Turks, I've used'em just as an example) can and do that freely may become dissatisfied. IMO, this is the at least part of the reason of the rise of the conservativism, nationalism and right-leaning ideas in the West.
@@igortirkajla8042 it's not that easy: First: the German sceptism of everything patriotic or over the top traditional exists not only because of some vague feeling of guilt, but also functions as a protection mechanism of our young and fragile democratic culture. The failed Artist gained a lot of his power, because they used traditions and culture as an Instrument to create a feeling of cultural supremacy. Second: before the war there were three main types of "Mainstream" popular music in Germany: Schlager, Volksmusik and Jazz. The Nazis banned Jazz and instrumentalized Schlager and Volksmusik as dumb propaganda tools. That causes alot of problems to this day, Schlager became an oversimplified Version of modern Pop music, which does not allow for complexity or deeper societal relevance in music and text. Volksmusik in the other hand has become an unmoveable Monolith, not allowed for changing, because of that It's music only for very old people, or people who romantisize certain time periods.
@@jorgkunischewski9363
"the German sceptism of everything patriotic or over the top" - I have many friends in Germany, and have visited several times - I won't say I know better than you, but I'm not entirely sure that Germans are that sceptic, actually. To me it seems more than they are conditioned to act in a certain way, in public spaces at least. I also know that anecdote isn't an evidence, but I'll use it as an illustration why I think so (not, the only, but one of the reasons) - friend of mine (who is Philosophy major, I'm pointing that out b/c she is very smart and observant, yet very progressive) has married recently in conservative German family in Ulm. Her conclusion is that, at least there, there is a dominating sense of German pride. So I'm inclined to think it's there in other places too, but, as I said, it's still societally unacceptable to express it.
"Schlager became an oversimplified Version of modern Pop music" - same goes for turbo-folk (I'm from Serbia), yet we did send Hurricane couple of years ago, and many people loved it. I think it's the same - I'd, for one, love to see from you something like Ella Endlich from couple years back, despite it being essentialy ridiculous. Simply it's enjoyable in some guilty pleasure-ish and campy way :)
"Volksmusik in the other hand has become an unmoveable Monolith" - yes, I think that it will be considered more as joke entry. But, on the other hand, it is part of your culture, with all its flaws. If people indeed dislike it, and don't wan't to be represented with something like that, that's fine - I was just wondering what if they actually do like it, and they censor themselves, or hide it, because of the current cultural climate.
Okay I got carried away a bit, there are nice efforts to make Volksmusik cool again, and there are some dope Schlagers Out there, I just wanted to make clearly, that "Just get over it" does not really work, especially now, when they are winning votes again, all over Europe. Also post war escapism might play a much bigger role in (almost) ruining this Genres.
Okay I got carried away a bit. There are nice efforts to combine Volksmusik elements with more modern elements, and there is some cool Schlager out there. I just wanted to point out that the the issue is more complicated, than "get over it". And as I said i would really like some german folk elements in the ESC, but it needs to be based in the modern world, to have even the slightest chance in Germany and internationally. And personally, as a northwestern german, i am a bit tired of everything bavarian, seen as representative for germany.
Actually from no spaniard's perspective, they do have "national identity folk music*, and it's still flamenco, imo it dwarfs everything else as ultraspanish that I've heard. I could be wrong though.
Also gw Norway, your song is my absolute favourite this year, I don't think it can be dethroned by anything. I haven't had a clear fav in EV since... lemme think, since 2021 and Dark Side. Oh! not that long ago as I thought.
Flamenco by no way representative of Spain as a whole.
flamenco is very andaluz and romani, tbh it always registered me as a bavaria type of situation where to outsiders yeah it's how they see the country since it's what it gets exported but in the actual country it's definitely more regional, whereas chancon and country idk if you can fully narrow down to one region, like sure, paris and bum fuck nowhere usa but they have managed to become very "this is the whole nation"
I think Norwegians generally have a very eclectic taste in music. I mean Frank Zappa was as popular as any other American pop star back in the days. He really was huge in Norway.
I'm from Norway and I'd never heard of Gåte 🙈I still voted for them ofc, I just fell in love with their performance 💚
That's weird and understandable at the same time. They've been around since the 90's or something, but are still niche.
You are probably very young 😊
@@ysteinnordli7988 i don't think it's that 😅 I'm a 31 yo lady 😅
Young and promising! 😉
Bare ungdommen 👍
@@TheFrkSofa You've most likely heard the song "Sjå attende" somewhere on the TV or radio at some point.
to further talk about Norway sending Haba Haba, don't forget to mention Guri Schanke, who performed a heavily latin-inspired piece, that Norway sent to ESC. I think Norway just appreciates cultural songs in general.
tbf latin pieces were rather common in that era even by non latin countries, like with finland 2004
The very first Eurovision YT I have ever watched turned out to be American. And I don’t need to go elsewhere, because this one nailed it.. funny, and well researched, and.. as a Norwegian, I think I’ll have to go listen to the «Ulveham» song now.. Managed to only catch bits and pieces so far.
Thank you for really have done real research for the entry giving those who watch importent background of the song! Great job!
Wow! He really is overthinking it! I'm impressed!!!
Norway seems like a very down to earth country with proud traditions despite it currently being rich. Not a snobby country like its neigbour :D
Love your anslyses! Ulvehamn to me a possible winner of ESC this year. I will defenitly vote for it! The old folktale/song is not just norwegian. Versions of it in all of skandinavia. The traditional music instrument featured in Ulvehamn is a swedish key harp, nyckelharpa in swedish!
The keyharp was used in all of scandinavia
this made me think. Here in Argentina we have folk music but is more like native folk music, modernized but still very native inspired. We lost the Tango, that is more like folk music from the old city.
Nobody seems to be talking about Norway winning in 1995 with very folky song
I wish there were more folk songs sung in native languages at Eurovision. It is the best way to introduce your culture to other countries. Lots of countries send generic pop songs that say nothing about their culture. For example, I learn nothing about Sweeden from their ESC entries other than the fact they have lots of music producers.
Well said 👏👏👏 I absolutely agree with you. Now, if you close your eyes and listens to the songs, you wouldnt guess which country the songs are from cause most songs sounds the same). It ruins the whole point of Eurovision. It also has to do with the infiltration of songwritrs, especially Swedish, who writes songs for a lot of national finals all over Europe, and these songs are usually cooy-pasted songs we have heard so many times before.
Norway usually sends very different style of songs in Eurovision, and are one of the most diverse countries..
I had my hopes for Gothminister, but Gåte will do.
It is nice to see the research gone into this video. As a Norwegian, the folk music was a rich source for the drive for independence between 1814 and 1905. While the old Norwegian state entered into unions with Denmark and Sweden, the core of the nation's culture lived on in the rural communities of the country, with music being an important cultural carrier.
Very good video with interesting analysis. Just wanted to nitpick one thing, Ulveham was not the only folk song in MGP this year, there was also Eya, which was a mix of Norwegian folk and Latino pop. They are of course very different though so they didn't split votes that much.
It sounds pretty Latin to me so I didn't count it but the count was highly subjective, I'm sure someone else would have had very different numbers. Feel free to ignore that part, except maybe to note that Sanremo doesn't have NEARLY that much folk stuff, so there's clearly something different about Norway. - MB
@@overthinkingit The biggest folk elements are in the instrumentation, with the mouth harp (a really cool instrument which I've seen some people confuse with a synth) and the Hardanger fiddle, and the melody of the post-chorus which seems to be inspired by the traditional folk tune "Fanitullen". I get why you see the latin influence more clearly, but it's definitely just as much Norwegian folk.
@@sugarinmywoundsas a Norwegian I second that!👍🏼
Great analyzing, but if it was true that countries under threat would send folk music to ESC, then Finland and the baltics should have sent nothing but folk the last few years. I think there's a whole other reason for it. In Norway we're simply proud of our country, music and thousand year old traditions, especially when we can showcase it abroad. At home it's not so important :P Edit: and yes I love Gåte and I love Ulveham!
well all baltics and finland have sent at least one song containing their native language in the past two years, it probably helps that unlike ukraine they're not at war and they are in nato and stuff so they probably feel a lot safer
@@lexezlao Yes but he was talking about Norway which only has a tiny border towards Russia and is one of the founding members of NATO - so makes no sense. Songs in their own language hardly qualifies as folk music.
@@peacefulminimalist2028 oh I think Norway here doesn't qualify for the in danger part they just simply decided to do folk
Could also just be baby steps for the baltics since, well, mainly Latvia, aren't exactly the most folkic of countries
Italy indeed doesn't have folk music which represents them nationally... it's strictly a local thing and highly overlooked nationally. Their national folk music is in a way the "musica leggera", the one you often see at Sanremo and sometimes Eurovision. It's the only kind of music that unifies the country
So glad Alvedansen got a shoutout. It was the entry that made me a fan and changed my outlook on the world.
It's interesting that Germany did a much better job of capitalising on the Lily Allen / Kate Nash popularity than the UK did - Satellite is unintentionally hilarious but you can see why it won and it's undeniably fun. Doesn't help that it fell in the nadir of our refusal to take the competition even the tiniest bit seriously!
Thumbsed this up before even watching the video. Whatever the reason they won, I'm glad that they did. I feel like folk music in general is a harder sell these days than it was back in the days of "Alvedansen" (great entry, by the way), so it's nice to see a country like Norway (which has become kind of a minor powerhouse) embracing it, though of course also wrapping it up in something that's more palatable to the modern fandom.
Turbo-folk differs from country music in manner that it breaks away with tradition and rural setting. Musically, both styles are product of postmodernism.
1. Mentions Guernsey, fails to see it's next to Jersey, fails to deliver an eastcoast-westcoast US joke that's RIGHT there.
2. It's about Folk in ESC, Norwegian language in ESC, but NO mention of the 1995 winner Nocturne, Secret Garden... *boohoo*
3. Talks about Sami in an ESC video without mentioning the 1980 Norwegian Eurovision song: instant withdrawal of any ESC cred!
4. I don't understand where you got the chart @ 7:45 from... the UK is probably one of the most diverse countries in Europe, it's just that that diversity is snowed under a layer of "Britishness" to quote Gwynfor Evans:"Britishness...is a political synonym for Englishness which extends English culture over the Scots, the Welsh, and the Irish." You've got the languages:English, Scots, Ulster Scots, Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Welsh & Cornish, that's just the languages, not to speak about the many dialects... So Ethnically & linguistically it should be way higher than the others, while the religious diversity is on par or even lower than some of the others.
5. Benidorm 2022 is absolutely the worst example you could've picked, they won the popular vote! It wasn't sent to ESC because of a corrupt jury.(hey Poland, remind you of something?)
6. Polka... you guys really cannot get over the fact that Polka is an important European type of music can you? Nor that you missed the prediction of Moldova getting the popular vote(after Ukraine of course) for what you guys called a "western how down" however you spell that. 🙂
7. While i would concede that country music is very US-centric, harking back to a mythical past, the music known as Americana is more Appalachian bluegrass, East Texan swamp blues & Louisianian zydeco. At least outside the US. By the by, only about 10% of the US lives in "that small town", the rest are coastal metropolitan elites, though how one can be 'elite' at something by being in the majority is mystifying to me. On that pick up truck sitting in traffic on an 8 lane highway, have you been watching Not Just Bikes?
8. Nyckelharp is older than that.
9. Kulning/however you spell the cow calling is awesome & you should have put a clip of it in this video, anyone who reads this should look it up, it's magical!
10. The US is just too big to understand, hence the caricature of the Texas cowboy who listens to country, is fat & loud while using a large camera to snap photos on holiday in Europe, without understanding how to be silent in a church. This image may be several decades out of date... (no coastal elites were harmed in making that sentence ;-)
11. love you guys for making these videos ❤
Just join the Discord already and fact check these BEFORE we record them. :)
Yes, come over, we have cookies! Or maybe we don't. Or we do, but I bake them at home, 15 km Southeast of Paris, and you just have to come for them.
Such a great video. Thanks! I saw Gåte live in Oslo last night. I've followed them as a band for almost 15 years. I'm unsure what I think of them going to Eurovision though. The Eurovision version of Ulveham is so choreographed, clean and tailored for the kind of event that Eurovision is and it lacks that raw freedom that Gåte has always delivered live. I don't want them to loose that. I want them to be sucsessfull and have all the opertunities this brings. I just hope this will help more people discover the rest of Gåte's songs and that amazing atmosphere they manage to create at their concerts.
I'm sure there are many people like me discovering Gåte thanks to Eurovision. I still can't believe what Ulveham does to me, every single time I hear it something awesome happens inside me. I understand your concerns about them losing their identity, but that staging is also magical, I think they can't do a better job than this ! I don't know if I'll ever have the chance to see them live, but I'm sure I will do everything just to make that happen one day in my life !
BEG TO DIFFER!!! The national folk music of the Victorian age in the UK was Music Hall!!! (Oh eye-eye-eye, missus, don't sit on my artichokes, don't cha know!!!)
Are we talking like, the Oom-Pah-Pah song from Oliver?
@@overthinkingit Yeah, pretty much ... I wasn't actually alive then, but those crowd-pleasing "common" songs were definitely the voice of the sing-along hoi-polloi (look it up). Ooo-er, Missus, THAT'S not a banana! Oh oy-yoy-yoy and stamp me ticket if you will, Mister P'liceman!
The subtitle that you showed at the start of the video is not entirely accurate.
That line can only be heard (with a sharp ear) during the 'storm' voice at the end, while the line that you did play was "she cursed me to walk lonely in the woods".
Thanks, I definitely remember being confused trying to follow along with the lyrics. - MB
Hi from Norway. Great analysis. You got almost everything right and that is impressive, but the main reason we listen to folk music in the Nordic countries is that we love it. I have folk music CDs that I listen to in my car on my way to and from work, and it isn't because I feel threatened by foreign cultures, or even for nostalgic reasons. It's genuinely a core part of the culture. I also think you got a detail about Alexander Rybak partly wrong. The association I got when I saw him was that he was an incarnation of the nordic fairy tale creature Nøkken/Nykkjen/Näcken who lives in water and plays his violin to lead honorable people astray, a lot like Greek Sirens. It is national romanticism, but it's based on much older folk tales. What Americans often get wrong is that people from homogeneous countries need strong nationalistic symbols to unite them just as Americans do, but that isn't necessarily true if they are already one people. Bonus fact: The Swedish contribution to Eurovision 2024 is written and performed by Norwegians with double citizenship, so they could in principle have won in both countries and go on stage twice in the same contest.
Great to have you back. You have so many interesting perspectives on what might seem entries of a rather frivolous and weird competition. Ulveham wasn't my favourite, but I agree with you about the analysis of us Norwegians and our penchant for injecting National Romanticism in culture wherever we can.
This video is essentially a quarter of my university dissertation, I'm so glad other people actually get excited by it all too!!!
This channel is doing a lot for debunking the stereotype about ignorant Americans. Great video, thank you all!
Its always refreshing when somebody sends an actual band to Eurovision.
The intro to the song is some very old «calling for the cows to come back from grassing in the wild», to safely return before night to be milked in the morning. A summer tradition when cows get to grass in the mountains.
Wonderful research, as always!
Nice video! I also think this idea expands well into the dutch song this year, Joost really tried to include some 'dutch' music genres which would represent our country.
If you argue with the epoch of national romanticism in Norway, then you would also have to look at this musical epoch in other countries. In classical music, this is an important period, Beethoven, Liszt, Chopin etc. Here in Germany, this was also the phase in which people collected old things, for example the Brothers Grimm's fairy tales (and here we have the connection to Norway...). Alongside Schubert and Schumann, who set poems of the time to music, it was of course Wagner who tackled the material of the ancient Germanic tribes. Hm, perhaps Germany should do something along these lines. Nemo has his Mozart passages, but Wagner probably didn't exist at the ESC yet.
Why hasn't anyone combined Wagner with metal or rap yet, that's just a brilliant idea.
And yes, of course I'm a fan of Norwergen 2024.
You should listen the Norwegian Eurovision entry from 1980 - Sámiid ædnan (The first Eurovision-song ever with sami joik) Fun fact: This joik was also in the American horror movie “The Thing”. (a great and fun movie scene) 😍
We must not forget Elin & The Woods either, who came 3rd in MGP 2017 with First Step in Faith (Oadjebasvuhtii):-)
And I personally love "Ándagassii" which reached the final in 2008!
Eya had Norwegian folk in it so Ulveham wasnt the only one.
True, although I doubt it was all that much of a spoiler candidate as far as splitting-the-folk-vote hypothesis goes. 😊
It have appeard a nøkkelharpe dated 1524.
Its made recordings with it.
That is before any english were spoken in America.
Loving this new season of Overthinking Eurovision. As an Aussie can I please humbly request an analysis of “One Mikali”/“One Blood” for the Australian entry this year?🙏🏻
Love that song. But part of the lyrics I can't really penetrate. Do you know a little more by any chance? I get the reference to the golden ratio and the golden spiral, and apparently spirals are an important symbol in Aboriginal culture? Can you for example make sense of the chorus? Why are they referencing Fleetwood Mac and I presume Janet Jackson, and who is Mickey? And is 'Entertaining the gods' some kind of proverb?
"What you gonna do in the real world, Mickey?
What you gonna do when you see?
Milkali (Milkali kutju), milkali
Escape with us to the planets
To the Fleetwood Macs and the Janets
Milkali la while entertaining the gods"
I also would really love to see a dive into the aboriginean culture and the roots of the spiritual journey, pretty please? :3
I am Dutch and what I learned from this video is that happy hardcore is our folk haha.
No but really, I love folk music. Mainly British folkrock and Celtic/Irish folk, but I've been searching for actual Dutch folk that isn't something like Andre Hazes sr. (If anyone has any recommendations lemme know!) Every year there is at least one folky song at Eurovision that I immediately like (Like Norway this year! And also Europapa haha). But still... I keep hoping for Ireland to send in a folk song as gaeilge like only they can. That would be so cool!
Dang, this was so well researched and to the point. Way 'overthought' ofc, and probably swooshed over the head of 95% ov Eurovision fans. But I loved it.
Now please give us a similar analysis of how this song will do in the great finale in may. Does it capture the 'zeitgeist' of Europe 2024? Does it get good jury points as well as televotes?
We are notoriously bad at predictions! We thought Trenulețul would definitely not qualify! Don’t listen to us! (But thanks for the kind words.)
Can't wait for your Ireland video! Although they accomplish something with video editing that I don't know if they can replicate on stage, which makes me really sad. They have the chorus as dreamscapes - which I think really makes the genre shifting make a lot more sense, and I feel like more people would connect with it if they could see that.
In 2011 i wish we would have sent "Vardlokk" instead. It was a song in norwegian with folk-like notes mentioning a "volve", a norse witch and fortuneteller. It was so pretty
playing his unaging little heart out haha
He must have a very ugly portrait up in the attic...
Impressiv analysis. Very impressiv analysis.
The only three things missing are "Samii
ædnan" from 1980, "Voi, voi" from 1960 and the Norwegian links to Guernsey.
I think you definitely hit the nail on the head with the national romance era tie-in.
Norwegian culture is very much based around looking to carve out a national identity as a proclamation of independence and sovereignty after severing ties with the Danish- and Swedish unions.
The reason that notion has carried on beyond that period in the mid 1800's is likely because it remained relevant long after that initial wave of art and culture.
The next dissolution with Sweden did not occur until 1905. At which point that sense of self-identity was again re-invigorated by the reinstatement of a Norwegian monarch.
Then it was tested yet again with the invasion and occupation by Germany a mere 35 years later during WW2, which in the aftermath birthed phrases like "9th of April, never again" (the date of the invasion) to remind the nation to never again allow a foreign nation to threaten Norwegian sovereignty.
So the image of Norway literally painted by those romantic painters of the mid 1800's didn't fade with time, likely because it had continued reason to be reiterated and protected just like the nation itself.
Really enjoyed your answer👍👍👍Norway is pretty young as an independent nation.
Damn, I wish Poland choose proto-Slavic inspired Witch-er Tarohoro. It would be an awesome analysis of yours 🔥
Nyckelharpa is Sweden's national instrument. And I think kulning is the swedish word for the cow call. I believe norweigans have another word for it.
Kulokk and nookelharpe
Nøkkelharpe 😊@@triplef-funfromfreddy4356
Kulning in swedish, Kveding in norwegian.
It's worth to note that Gåte was formed in the late 90s, and have for the most part always been a folk-rock band. So I don't think it's about us not sending (many) folk music entries to ESC because we don't listen to it ourselves, but we collectively think it won't do well in the competition. And, that the competition has been seen as a bit tacky, and there are alot of snobbish musicians and songwriters, well, all over the world.
While not fully on topic, and more of an ADHD tangent:
I think I saw back in ye olde 2006, when "Alvedansen" attended Eurovision, there were some curious about why Norwegian traditional music would be about elves...
Well... elves are tradition. :P
Elves from fantasy stories are of Norse origins (in all the Nordic countries, and old Germanic beliefs as well.)
Elves and Dwarves come from the same stories as the Norse gods, example... in myth rather than Hollywood movies, Mjølnir doesn't "pick" who can lift it, Thor instead has a belt crafted by the Dwarves (Dvergr) that make him strong enough to lift it, I mean... the dude lifted Midgardsormen (the world serpent)
The elves also came in two flavors, the Elves (Alfr) and the Black Elves (Svartalfr)
The Elves were surface folk, and I do believe they were the ones who spun the yarn that could bind Fenris (The big bad wolf.)
The Black Elves lived under ground like the Dwarves, but I don't recall a lot about them other than how creative the names of where they lived were. :P
The Elves lived in Alfheim (basically translates to Elf Home)
The Black Elves lived in Svartalfheim (basically Black Elf Home) so creative. :P
But basically, Tolkien copied a lot from Norse and Germanic myths, and popularized the Elves and Dwarves in fantasy settings, I mean... he even called the area Middle Earth... that's basically just translating Midgard into English :P
And of all things, the language he created for the Elves, was based off of Finnish... though, their language does sound very unique compared to the rest of the Nordics, as we can communicate in our own languages to each other and get a gist, Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian is close, Icelandic is a lot closer to our old Norse languages, so we can pick up a word now and then, Finnish however... not even a chance. :P
I don't even know why I wrote all this, I'll just blame it on my ADHD and say sorry to whoever stumbles upon my random ramblings.
So happy that Norway for the 3rd year in a row catches your attention!!! Norway, France (your second 2024 video) and Serbia are the biggest conteder for the victory this year I believe. Most other pop entries, and crazy entries will cancel each other in some way so that the 3 aforementioned will really stand out this year with great stagings.
Gåte is also an amazing band to see live 8 out of 10 recomendation.
Really great video and deep dive!
This was a great video, that made me think of so many things. Thanks for that! (that is meant interely genuinly, in case thant was lost in text).
Firstly when you mentioned an american folkstyle, that had captured both the national and the international imagination of what the usa was, as a scandinavian, my mind imedietly whent to jazz ;)
The nationalromantic era was a cultural era that happened in all of europe and russia and not just norway (though it may not have been your intent to imply otherwise). All the european countries found a renewed fascination with their nations ancient histories and their folk culture. The english regained their fascination with the legend of king arthur, the song of beowulf became big in both Denmark and England where the text is found. In Germany the Grimm brothers collected and wrote down fairytails. So did other people in their own conutries not to mention the newly written fairytails, that where not folktales but written by authors in a similar style to folktales. Composers from around europe drew inspiration from their national folk music traditions, many european countries national dress is from that time period and so on.
Latsly I thought of the fact that there is another thing at play when the scandinavian countries send a folk-inspired style song to eurovision. There may also be an idea that it will do well, because of the popularity of fantasy and viking genres in tv an cinema that often have an element of scandinavian folkmusic in their musicscoring (wich ofcourse has more to do with the nationalromantic era once again, and it's influence on american filmmusic tradition).
I apologise this was so long.. my mind, just kind of whent all over the place.
Impressed by your deep dive into norwegian culture!
Ulveham was not the only folk inspired song in MGP this year, you also had Ingrid Jasmins “Eya”
Sounds Latin to me, not Nordic. But I'll totally admit that part of the video was just me listening to songs rapid fire and going with my gut on whether they were Norwegiany, it would not hold up to peer review. - MB
@@overthinkingit The song is a blending of both Nordic folk and Latin elements, at least that’s how it was marketed during the competition
@@Kanabai1871 To me as a Norwegian I can clearly hear the Nordic folk elements in Eya. A very interesting mix by an artist with roots in both cultures.
I must say I'm impressed by your dedication to pronounce foreign words/names more or less correctly. You _almost_ nailed "Knut". Not bad!
There were actual Norwegians from the Discord who listened to a rehearsal. Any correct pronunciations are thanks to them. - MB
Impressive stuff, and pretty correct about Norways image I think
I am so extremely impressed with your research! As a Norwegian, I can confirm that you are spot on!
you should check out helvegen by wardruna, especially the one with aurora, it invokes a viking instinct i can't explain. this goes for the intro to the show Vikings too...
Love this! Excellent writing and research. Even as a norwegian, I learned something and had a couple of revelations! I think you are spot-on in your analysis and theory!
What the heck was the cypher at 13:39 ?!?!? I went to the website and found a photo of a fist punching an ABBA logo saying “Solve the puzzle, save the future”.
No idea what you’re talking about. Just a random upload glitch. 🤷♂️
Great video!!!
Hi
I really liked this intelligent analysis, well done 🤗
I'd say the UK *has* sent a folk song that fits the bill of an early 20th century sound - Rock Bottom by Lynsey DePaul and Mike Moran in 1977 (which, funnily enough came 2nd to a classic French chanson). The genre being Vaudeville/Music Hall & Variety. The duelling pianos, the slightly cabaret feel, the social commentary with a slightly comic/tongue in cheek feel. Flying the Flag in 2007 also tapped into that somewhat, especially lyrically - but with that pop sound layered over it.
Thank you for noticing us, We are very confindent to be a successful relatively even country. Insanely rich, but stored away. One doesnt like to brag. Nonetheless, Norways entry this year is absolutetly smashing
A real band
I don't know if Tanxuguieras is a great example since they did win the popular vote at Benidorm that year and only lost with the juries XD
It is the second Sami song Norway has sent, 1980 Sami Ædnan, it is partly in Norwegian, and in Sami, political. While Norwegians and Sami hasn't always had the best history, Norway is very fond of their Sami culture side.
Don't worry no one understands 'murica.
Great analysis, I enjoyed your overthinking as much as I love Ulveham, and that's a big amount!
The lyrics:
I was such a beautiful maiden
With an evil stepmother, my mother died
She made me into a sword and a needle
And sent me off to the King’s estate
And the wrath my stepmother felt the most
When the nicest liked me the best
And then the chorus..
She gave me a skin, as grey as the wolf
She cursed me to walk lonely in the woods
Never will I be whole and well
Until I get to drink my brother’s blood
And the chorus again
And this is what the guy is growling:
So I ripped out her left side
So her blood ran wild
So I got to drink my brother’s blood
Translating these lyrics isn’t the easiest, not even for me as a Norwegian. She sings in mostly Nynorsk and some of the words are very old, I actually had to Google the meaning of them.
Spot on!