S&S Cycle - Drag Pipes Style Exhaust: Carb Jetting and Troubleshooting
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Poor performance with drag pipes? Bruce Tessmer of S&S Cycle, Inc., walks us through some relatable demonstrations, explaining the science behind "drag pipe sag" and why you lose performance with drag pipes. Using Dynojet runs and multiple tests on ways get around drap pipe problems, troubleshooting drag pipes is made easy. But, as Bruce tells you; tuning your performance carb to fix an exhaust problem is like putting your arm in a sling to cure a headache.
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Haha "well, less power to you" but I love the sound my shovel makes with drag pipes so it was great to see the lollipop improved mid-range response. Thank you S&S for these excellent videos!
I can't tell you how many times I've tried to explain this to people. Even people who claim to be bike builders. I'm gonna save this video, your explanation and simulation with the slinky is phenomenal. Thank you!
Glad you found it useful!
I've been trying to explain this concept of resonance for awhile to a few folks I ride with but while I understand the concept, it's hard to explain to those that don't. The slinky has been the best example I've seen so far. My drag pipes are not equal length. I can actually feel a 'shudder' from my engine in the low/mid range with more carbon fouling in my rear plug. The different resonance is affecting how that rear cylinder is pulling fuel and dumping exhaust but many can't wrap their head around the idea. Much respect to your explanation good sir🤘
Thanks so much for making this video. It was 100% informative without being patronizing, or trying to sell something. I wish more vendors would follow your lead. The knowledge gained is priceless.
Loud pipes save lives! Text messaging idiots kill people. Drag pipes on my 03 1200C and I let people know I'm riding beside them or just in their general area. Houston traffic is insane. It gets them looking around instead of looking at their phone. Free flow air cleaner, bumped up the pilot jet and it runs great. Doesn't cough through carb and no backfire on deceleration. Not trying to squeeze every half hp just a good sounding quick scooter to get me out of a jam before it happens. Be safe.
Bro this dude is low key funny as fuck! He's throwing shade so calmly
Thumb Screw!!! Awesome. I can deal with the slight power decrease and keep my sound. Thanks.
I put drag pipes on my 2000 big dog ,boy did they put a lot of ugly stuff on that bike , exhaust pipes to start ,put on drag pipes very loud ,so I added full face helmet to my head ,best thing i ever did ,never noticed any change in performance..
Great video, Ive never seen a better explanation. The great thing is that these type of videos help all riders and performance enthusiast.
Wow that 1/4 Bolt difference ! This video is really one of the most question answering one i have ever seen. Everything discussed is then tested/dyno'ed. That's a lot of work and thank you for that. Cheers !
Even though I know it's not good for me, I still have to have a big fat piece of pie after dinner. It just tastes good. Drag pipes....I wish there was a fix, but there's no other way to get that sound. Gotta have that sound.
Thanx for clearing this topic up. I now have a better understanding on what the "big deal" is to use mufflers on the street. Thanx guys!
This guy's a solid teacher and straight faced funny
thanks S&S. I got the bike with the kit and pipes as it stands now. I rebuilt the carb the other day and checked the jetting. I'm trying the tips suggested in the video as all the "usual culprits," timing, plugs, ,wires, ( new Accel coil and wires and plugs), have been adressed. But I have no problem replacing the pipes with ones with mufflers. Those S&S looked sharp.
Thank you for such an educational video. I had never understood the reversion. I appreciate you very much.
Nice! Nothing like the genius professor to solve a problem. Thank you
Glad we could help!
Hello , thanks for the tip and information , I have a 250 yamaha virago live here in Brazil , I installed a direct 85 cm exhaust and makes a great noise, and really noticed a little lower in performance between 3:04 march after to see your video understood why , as a solution added a tailpipe of VW wolksvagem , and believe me, the power has increased considerably thanks and wishes
Been 10 or 11 years since I first watched this video - no idea why YT put it in my feed again today.. :D
In any case: I nearly caused a geriatric street-riot (man, those old folks were *pissed*) back when we took delivery of a bike featuring an older S&S T-series engine (T111? not sure any more) which was running drag pipes. It had spent a few weeks on a container-ship but it did start right up - and about a minute later, folks were running out of their houses towards us, yelling obscenities. :D
I still can't believe these pipes are street-legal in some places. The noise may sound awesome in videos, but when you're actually on/near the bike when you fire the thing up, it feels like you just unleashed a minor earth-quake. I do admit however that they look absolutely stunning and that the bike did lose some of its visual uniqueness after it had been converted for street-use by putting on the smallest adjustable slip-ons we could find.
Still: If you really *hate* your neighbors or want to be viewed as one of those South Park bikers ("brap-brap-brap-brap-brap!") I *guess* there's nothing better than a set of drag-pipes.. ;)
Excellent reversion explanation with the Slinky!
Really helpful, I was thinking of going straight pipes but heard about the problems, thanks for the advice.
Excellent video,. !!!! I've been telling people this for over 35 years, !!! On motorcycles and,. Cars,, 2 1/2 inch,,, pipes and warlock mufflers,,,, will kill your low in torque,,, !!!! There is absolutely no way to build more horsepower and torque at the top end,,. Without taking it away from low mid-range,,. !!!!
Great explanation! Thanks for going into the fundamentals.
Bruce I would like to thanks you for this tip I used a wing nut application on my 1992 xlh sporty boarded out from 883 to 30thou over 1200 full bottom to top with rebuilt with a SS supper E drag pipes. and a Andrews N4 cam ..... this was the most amazing difference I found in all the time i been jet changing ,,..
thanks again . works great.l
The mufflers you had and drag pipes with baffles are almost completely identical except one thing stock exhaust with mufflers have headers crossover so it basically makes it to be 2-1 exhaust system. As a result connecting to cylinders to work together. So basically in the video you proved how good is 2-1 systes🤠
Thank you for this excellent video! The dyno results say it all. And I appreciate your opinion on drag pipes!
At last, an informative lesson on exhaust system. Good man....
Thank you. You inspired me to not make a straight pipe for my stock bike when I get it. Your video discussed working on a carbureted bike, but had information very helpful to a fuel injected sport bike.
I plan to build a turbo kit for my bike. I was interested in getting or making a straight pipe exhaust, before I build the kit, to increase power & efficiency, but you confirmed for me that naturally aspirated engines should have a little back pressure in their exhaust, for low end use.
Turbocharged engines, are the ones that should have absolutely no back pressure in their exhausts, because they get that from the the turbine itself. As for noise. turbochargers, ironically, have a muffler like effect on exhausts, but the turbo system itself creates noise, but I have a feeling that a turbo kit, with its straight pipe after the turbine, and it's vent to atmosphere blowoff valve, would have better noise pollution then a pure straight pipe exhaust.
Thanks again, you have been very helpful to my research. I hope no one here hates me for being into sport bikes, or what I'm planning. I recently became very interested in getting a bike, after being into cars & car Motorsports for many years, but I don't understand why there's stress between sportbikes and choppers/cruisers.
Great video Mr. Wizard. Keep up the great works! Very informative lesson, even a child could learn from. In you next lesson could you stuff a potato in each pipe for that cool Harley potato sound. Then to help with that coolness put some bad ass heat wraps on those pipes. That equation should fetch you a surprise on the dino. Word to the wise people. If you try to impress others by looking and sounding cool, you know your a dork. Stay Up!
You guys are amazing, thanks for all the info and the time put into it.
I learned a little about carb jetting I didn't know before
Nice Video. Great explanation on exhaust reversion. Thank you.
Great and informative vid, thank you!
great lesson, Teach!
Good video, i have a 1985 fxef superglide fatbob with drag pipes on, good luck finding any other types of pipes for that, sometimes throwing away drag pipes is not an option, i understand exhaust flow better than alot of people due to i work on building custom exhaust on vehicles, motocycles are no different whan it comes to flow, flat washer welded to a bolt gained me just over 80 horse on a dyno on a stock engine with a stock carb.
well I learned something and that is good thanks for the information
Excellent and interesting. I shared a link to this video many times.
the term is lolli-popping...i used eye bolts and they worked like a charm, also gave the pipes a meaner sound
Anti-reversion cones up by the port used to be a big thing in V8s. Also, if you drill a small hole at the "top of the port" in the tube, it'll pull in air and create an after burn in the pipe, speeding up the exhaust flow. Smokey Yunick knew a lot of tricks. Exhaust flow management is a black art. Straight pipes move sewer better. LOL
Great Stuff Man Thank you!
This god!
Someone that understands that its not "lost back pressure" that causes straight pipes to do this. THANK YOU!
very useful info, thank you...
Worth watching good one
Sooo Cool! Excellent explanation!!! Thanks
Glad it helped!
baffles in drag pipes kill top end, i drilled 1/2 inch holes ,stagered like a machine gun cooling jacket,about 12 holes facing down and out,no more reversion ,you gotta jet with pipe changes
it worked for me and its easy to do
I prefer a good 2 into 1 system over anything. I've had HD's since 1969 and have tried them all when it comes to exhaust. Thanks for the video.
2 into 1 are garbage! Ever hear of lollipops?
@@DawnNLN-ee2kh They're garbage to you and what I like to run. Happy riding with your lollipops.
Excellent video!
good advice - should have explained about the HP advantage of the two into one pipes, several out there, D&D , Thunderheader and Vance & Hines which back 14 years ago I installed on my 2003 S&S 124 inch motor. The Fatboyis a 1991.
Before the motor work it was dyno'd @ 137 Hp and 151 foot pounds of torque which at that time Terry from Vance & Hines ( the designer of the pro pipe) said it was the highest numbers he heard of. I still tweeked the baffels to accommodate back pressures with a reverse cone like the Thunheader. The motor is still running very strong with 60 thousands over intake valves , the super G carburetor bored to 47 and a half mm with a thunderjet and the heads reworked by John Sachs. Straight pipes are loud but not for performance.
please do a comparison with mufflers and a 2 into 1
that's a great video, I've been telling customers that drag pipes are for drag racing for 30+ years, ( and catching a lot of crap for it...)but can go get the drag pipes out of the dumpster and do one more run with torque cones in them? Maybe 2 runs.... torque cones and torque cones with thumb screws.
+Ivan Gonne Sorry, the recycling truck already came and took them away.
Let me just say this about that: Torque cones are in the same catagory as the bolts and thumb screws. They will help and you may get acceptable results - for a certain value of "acceptable", but mufflers are still the way to go!
OK, this makes perfect sense.... I've got questions:
Given that baffles and even a bolt near the end of the pipe makes such a difference (love the thumbscrew test) and since you guys have this type of testing/tuning down pat (and explain it very well) I'd love to see a second part testing torque cones, crossover tube, and what might turn out to be more than decorative, those "fish tail" or "flame" ends on pipes which would seem to have a similar effect as just making the end of the pipe bigger, and lastly just the length of the pipe......... all of these potentially having an effect on resonant reversion and thus, sag.
It would be interesting to see how those stack up and if any are a complete solution or close to it.
Excellent presentation thoroughly explained regarding exhaust systems. As per instructions relating to drag pipes or the sound, it appears the 90° may be the best option but still not as good as a muffled system, (Slip On). Any input here would be appreciated.
I just installed the Khrome Werks Performance Plus baffles in my drag pipes on my 77 ironhead sportster, running a Super E carb. Before, the bike lacked low-mid range, hiccuped and popped at a steady mid rpm. Great WOT performance.
The baffles aren't as restrictive as the ones in this video (no packing). The low-mid range is actually acceptable now. The bike still hiccups a bit at steady mid range rpm, may have to re-jet the carb. High rpm is still just as good. Sounds great but less rasp.
I run a Stage 2 Evo with 1 3/4" drag pipes with those baffles....nothing to complain about.
alright awesome thanks for getting back to me
Interesting never heard about the drag pipes making it run rich, with the increased air flow my yamaha runs too lean now. Mid range is fine but I lost my top end, will fix this weekend with bigger jets for more fuel.
Interesting as hell.
"well less power to you" lmao
I've ran drag pipes I've got them to work. regretted the carbs messed with the idle and and adjusted the valves and ran it on a dynamic both before and after my tweaks. I fixed the problem. it helped alot. espetially if your bike is tuned and stock for a exhaust for an exhaust with a baffle you can't just strait pipe it. drag pipes are decent. if your motor is tuned for it. just because someone is older dosnt always mean wiser
dyno not dynamic. auto correct I hate you
this guy is cracking me up. just the straight shit.
You may find something more to your liking by searching "Spongebob Squarepants" on UA-cam. Good luck!
I’ve got drag pipes on my ‘75 FX shovelhead. It’s 9:1 compression with the Andrews A2 cam, anti reversion cones at the head, 72 main jet in the super E. it runs well, cam comes alive just off idle and steadily makes more power as the RPM increases to scary territory. Not saying it makes as much power as it could, but it doesn’t suffer any drivability issues that’s for sure. Sounds bad ass too.
What an informative video. Very well crafted.
My 1998 carburated xl1200c (Sportster custom) has Screaming Eagle 1 slip-on drag pipes (and K&N air filter). I wonder how my bike would perform on the dyno. I believe this exhaust is 50/50 decibel emission. DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF THESE PIPES ARE BAFFLED?
The best way to adjust a Carb for Drag Pipes in to throw away the drag pipes lol .
That just made me loose it in laughter.
But so True !
I would like to have seen results for the baffles without any of that packing.
Could you please provide a link to the other two videos you mentioned?
Enjoyed this video. I was wondering would this have a similar effect with injection? I have a tunable fuel controller running on my bike.
While it is true that injection can be tuned more effectively, to eliminate the rich condition caused by a carb "double dipping" or adding fuel twice to a reversion pulse, you will still have reduced intake and exhaust flow. The problem will be less pronounced, but you will still lose power in the mid RPM range.
i had same prob bout 6 yrs ago , i ended up running a 1/4 -20 ss bolt 1in long with a ss wing nut to the inside of the exhaust kinda like the thumb bolt in video but instead haveing the wing nut on the inside of the exhaust and it fixed my prob, bike runs great now havent had any more issues in the 6yrs ive been running it , may not work for every one but just figured id mention what i did to mine and that it fixed my prob just incase it may help someone else with there prob , worth a try wing nut and a bolt could be a cheap fix or temp fix to some one out there .hope it help's some one .thanks
The "lollipop" can sometimes help with the reverberations as well.
Seriously good video. Why it's not on Discovery?
Because here we actually learn something.
What would be an appropriate exhaust system for city cruising that still gives you a deep sound?
This is an amazing fucking video and explanation……absolutely fantastic!
So if a guy wanted something louder than stock on a 2005 vn800A what would be an acceptable pipe that wouldn’t require re jetting? Thanks for any answers.
Try tuning the drag pipes with mini baffles in it. You get the sound and performance
so I have always taken baffles, cut them in half and then installed them in my drag pipes. OR I install a set of anti reversion cones at the head. I get decent results. Keep in mind I do this with ol skool choppers. We arent talking about performance bikes. But these methods always work well enough. Mid range performance is decent and no popping and backfiring on decel.
ive got a 85 evo. all stock. compression at 95#, all factory jettins (at their lowestfactory jetting) and a v&h performance exhaust. 2 to 1. Ive fouled 3 plugs this summer. Plugs are ngk bpr5eix-11. any ideas??
I have the older E model carb..how do i deal with air bleed adjustment on that one? Is it possible to adjust?
I was thinking about Dragging my Yamaha 250 Route 66. As nice as that V twin sounds with straight pipes, i cannot fight facts that are proven here. And on a 250, you need all the power you can get!
If you are drag racing, that is a good application for drag pipes. All they have to do is to make power at high rpm and win races. They just aren't a good choice on the street where the engine has to perform well in a lot of different circumstances.
Even if i got custom headers fit for the exhaust for that bike, Would i still lose power?
CrispyTurtl3
You would have to ask the manufacturer. We don't make anything like that. Sorry.
I’m curious about exhaust port torque cones.
They work great on Drag pipes..
Not everything is about power. I do understand efficiency but the sound of drag pipes of yesteryear is what made a Harley what it is today. What about power cones at the top of the pipes at the exhaust port?
Challenge with drag pipes is lack of physical volume. We’ve seen a number of tweaks, but a legit muffler will always make better power (that may mean flatter curve as much as a big number).
ok so I have a 82 silverwing that I just straight piped and do u have to go bigger or smaller on the jet to not damage the motor?
lmao, "less power to you". love it
I run kromwerks HP baffles in my drag pipes on my 83 Shovelhead.
How are they, any videos?
Anything you do to the exhaust you must tweak the carb. The issue isn't the use of drag pipes on the street. The issue is using the S&S carb with drag pipes on the street. Work up the CV or slap on a Mikuni and you will make it work way better then with the S&S. They are not a bad carb, but they aren't that good either. A Mikuni will walk the dog on a shorty E or G all day long. It's just a 2 circuit carb with a pump, and an added air bleed to help cure it's overlap stumble. Ls and Bs were better carbs. Just because S&S makes it doesn't mean it is the best performing or the best choice. Their 883 to 1200cc conversion is a great example. You don't get the power for the money over any other kit.
What about heat wrapping (fiberglass/titanium/whatever else) and ceramic coating your pipes? Could this help with the harmonic feedback? I'd like the see the Dynojet comparison of that.
Heat wrapping is intended to keep the exhaust gasses hotter, and, theoretically moving faster since they are aren't losing as much energy as dissipated heat. While this looks way bad-ass, it probably won't have a pronounced effect on the street, since it is more of a racing thing. S&S has never done any dyno testing to determine the effect on harmonic reversion.
Great vid!
What's you guy's opinion on Thunder Monster baffles installed in drag pipes? That "glasspack" looked like a load compared to TM products.
+InvictvsNox We have not tried these particular baffles. They may help with the drag pipe sag, but will not be as effective as a set of mufflers.
S&S Cycle, Inc Ah, okay. I figured they would sort of make the system count as a muffler.
Thanks for the reply.
wow 80 hp Ihave 21/4 inch porkers with AR cones and !/2 inch coupler nuts on a 3/8 inch bolt at the end of pipe (internal) havnt been on a dyno but im happy withthat I figured that out 15 yesrs ago!!! hell ill dig thrm drags out of the dumpste any ole time I HATE THE WAFER?BAFFLED PIPES!!!
That was great. are S&S pipes " tuned" to enhance performance or just to look good?
bobknight33 With a name like S&S Power Tune Exhaust, you would think so! However the goal of street exhaust systems is to be NOT TUNED, de-tuned if you will. Drag pipes are tuned which is why they perform well at high rpm and poorly in the mid-range. An exhaust system that is de-tuned can perform well across the entire rpm range. The S&S motto is Proven Performance®. We are a performance company, so everything we sell makes more power. S&S exhaust will improve your performance, and we can prove it! Hope that helps.
BTW - they look fabulous too!
Thanks for educating me on why the bike is not running right. Time to put the muffler back on.
If I have a stock vstar 1100 custom would it be ok to install a thumbscrew in the headers and looks the muffler all together?
We deal almost exclusively with v-twins built in Milwaukee, but the concept is the same. You can give it a try, but assuming that bike has EFI, you'd want to make sure to recalibrate.
What about torque cones?
I use tthis to try and wise up meatheads, thanks
Cool vid, but why didn't yall try torque cones?
Or lollipops!
How about antirevergen cones any luck there
I solved my drag pipe problem long before this video in a similar way as the thumb screw method. I welded different size washers on a 1/4 bolt about 4 inches from exhaust tip end, until I could feel the bike doing what it does best, Run like a scalded dog. Mine however is an old iron motor and a different breed altogether than these newer engines, with hemi domed pistons, cams and larger carb. It should help for any resonance in any bike exhaust though. We didn't have dynos in my day, you tuned by the seat of your pants! Ahh technology!
Any data showing how exhaust port torque cone compares to the lollipop trick?
R McFar yeah. Funny how he left those out...🤔
I just installed a brand new s&s super e carburetor and it's dripping gas from what seems to be the bottom of the accelerator pump housing ? Everything seems to be tight, I surly didn't disturb anything around there or anything factory at all for that matter . What could be the problem ? Not rebuilt, used,etc.... Brand new ! Please help !?
Hey Kevin, please reach out to our tech support team directly via email at sstech@sscycle.com.
I have an 89" super G stroker kit in an 89 xlh 1200 Sporty with non stock pipes with the baffles removed an have a problem with the bike jerking under 3000 r.p.m. It will run all day at 60-70 miles an hour. This video gave me some good tips. Anything else someone recommends?
+James Cordes Try putting the baffles back in those pipes as an experiment. If the problem goes away, you can say in a loud and authoritative voice: :We'll there's your problem!" That would indicate that harmonic reversion is the culprit. If not you should check out the usual suspects - igniton timing, bad plugs or wires, maybe a plugged passage in the carb, among others. Feel free to call our tech line! (866) BIG-BORE (244-2673)
Same problem here. Put in baffles--my drag pipes flare out to 2.5" at the end. The baffle solved the jerky, but caused hesitation under 3000rpm on a slow roll throttle acceleration, and occasional sneeze in carb--does it once, then no more. BUT it still sneezes on hesitation and takes off. Pilot jet may need to go larger. May remove baffles in the end.
What about those torque cones?
They fix it
Great video and great explanation, but here's an idea place some baffles if the drag pipes and this will resolve the issue of the drag pipe sag" and you still have that awesome sound.
5TRYD4 Take a look at the video at about 9:00. We do just that.
S&S Cycle, Inc yes you did haha. I did pay attention but my memory let me down. But yet another taught smaller baffles 4" w/o fibre glass. All smiles :)
Have you tried torque cones ? I need a high mount exhaust for my sportster scrambler to clear the swing arm from the exhaust do to longer rear springs.. how ever all those style exhaust are strait through exhaust with out baffles ... I was thinking maybe a torque cone or adding a hi flow baffle like the hp plus baffles to solve my dilemma I'm in ... I would much rather have a muffler exhaust but it seems there's not much options for the solid mount sportys for my exhaust application
Torque cones will help with reversion and will smooth out the torque curve, but they are pretty restrictive and will also reduce top end horsepower. Mufflers are a better deal, but if you want to run a straight pipe, they will help.
10-4 the only reason I ask is because I need a high mount short exhaust system for my 95 sportster like a shotgun exhaust and none of those exhaust options have mufflers so I'm kind of hosed ... all the good exhaust systems out there are for the 04 and up sportys ... I wanted to leave my se slip ons how ever with my 15in rear shocks the swing arm hits the exhaust ... just trying to figure out a way to make strait through shot gun pipes perform well for my sportster scrambler build
99 G.POUND S&S 113. V HINES DRAG PIPES.......RING IT OUT'' OR GO HOME.......ALL DO RESPECT OF THE TALENT/SKILLS,,LET ME DO A WHOLE SHOT ON THAT SLING GE...BRUCE,,,JUST KIDING BROTHER......BONE CRUSHER......
What if I have the stock cv carb? same issues possibly?
+Bill Hill You may have the same issues, but they may not be as pronounced. The stock carb is smaller and velocity will be higher, which may overcome some of the issues. But being smaller, the stock carb won't deliver the top end horsepower. Big trade-off.
don't those mufflers just have removable baffles just like the ones for the drag pipes?
Some S&S Mufflers do have removable baffles, but there is still baffling (not confusing) structure still in the muffler, so the "drag pipe sag" is not an issue. The difference between baffles in a muffler and in a drag pipe is the cross-section area and the volume of the muffler. You can have a baffle in a muffler and not restrict the flow very much. Not so a drag pipe.