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Do chains stretch?
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2018
- In this video we look at chain wear and does a chain stretch and more material tech stuff.
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Hi Matt, good explanation/demonstration of elastic and plastic deformation, but I did note you defined strain as the force applied 7:45, and stress as the way the material reacts (elongates) whereas its the reverse. Stress is measured in pressure units (psi, bar, pascals etc) and strain is a non dimensional ratio (of length). You had me scratching my head cos the graph was right.
Someone mentioned that in the comments, totally my boo boo, cheers dude
Had a chain break once. Old and neglected RK 520 on an RD500 (we called them RZ500's). Destroyed my engine case. After much investigation it turned out that one of the pins had elongated it's hole and bent itself out of there. The chain reaction of failures ensued!
Here's a link to my video that Matt is talking about.
ua-cam.com/video/Z_MGm4dy-8w/v-deo.html
Thanks Matt for watching it, and putting your engineering knowledge on it. If you don't think people actually think it stretches as opposed to wearing the pins and overall getting longer...you haven't spent enough time in the States. Damn English language!
"A chain doesn't stretch like a rubber band... I don't think anyone thought that".... you've not been on the Lexmoto Facebook group I see...
For what it's worth every now and again remove your front sprocket cover and give the whole area a clean as you tend to get a build up of shite so why run a cleaned chain though it?
Did that before the winter came. 2-3 spoons of old lube and road shit gathered. Done for the first time after 12k km (new bike)
Learned more from ur white board than any other youtube videos about chained lol thanks man
I turned on my puter and went to my home page, saw a story on "why does hp and torque cross at 5252 rpm" which I've seen Matt's video on, it was a young guy "engineering explained" who I've seen before, and when it was over 6 more vids popped up, AND this vid was one of the choices. I was impressed. ROCK ON Matt, I really enjoy your channel, and learn a bit along the way.
"They call me Hell
They call me Stacey
They call me her
They call me Jane
That's not my name
My names matt welcome back to the shop!"
I see what you did there hahahahahaha
YEY - someone noticed
so i clicked on this vid' thinking " well I'm not going to learn anything new from this one " but that was a really good vid'. My respect grows daily Matt . Top job.
Del could probably end up getting dirt in the o rings😂😂
If i was you I'd get rid of that knife before the missus sees it lol,
Actually, to be absolutely accurate, chains do stretch and spring back, minutely, a property of all metals under tension. But that is not permanent, of course. The stretch we're talking about here is wear of metal against metal of chain links. I know you are very detail- oriented so wanted to bring this to your attention!! 😀 Thanks for the great videos.
well the 'dinner with matt' vids are now going to be funny with that knife
A certain other motorbike channel would struggle explaning this. You have certainly put my mind straight on it. I hate to say I thought the metal actually stretched a few microns per link over time. Just sayin - good vid, educational to us non engineers. The explanation around elastic and plastic deformation was definately bonus material. Thanks.
evans and scotoiler mixed 50/50 would eliminate this I think...
re: Jason Coleman - I don't think it is just common sense, I really think it comes down to peoples background and experiences. I grew up only interested in computers and have come to learning mechanical maintenance later in life. If you grew up on a farm or mucking around with dirt bikes or even watching your father clean out the carbs on the lawnmower then yes I'm sure a lot of this stuff is piss easy for you. I'm not a thicko, but mechanically I grew up very ignorant. I'm man enough to say it and the whole reason I'm here is to continue changing it.
Over several years I've learned how to pull apart and clean calipers, bleed brakes, carburettors, valve clearances, etc. But way back when my bike instructors first mentioned the chain stretches and you have to use the adjusters, I had so much else to take in at the time I didn't bother asking HOW a fooking metal chain stretches. Because I don't have mechanical / engineering / metalworking background, physically wearing never occurred to me. Elastically stretching didn't really seem right either but that's what the word stretch fooking means to me. So I've always been a bit perplexed by this. I actually really like this word 'elongated' better. The chain overall becomes longer but none of those heavy metal pieces are individually stretching.
Thanks a lot Tepco and Matt for making your videos, all is clear. It's fucking hard trying to learn all this stuff on my own, this 'basic' stuff doesn't just come up over a cigarette break at work for people like me. Even simple jobs can become more involved when you've never done them before. Perfect example is right now I'm needing to change the coolant on my Toyota - thought I had watched enough videos to figure out draining, flushing, refilling with correct ratios and burping air in the system afterwards. Grabbed the manual from the library just in case and was all set to go - then I see the manual mentions removing the thermostat to help with the flushing. But to access that I have to remove the serpentine belt (refer section 1) and then remove the alternator (refer section 5). So if I want to do it properly there's two more procedures I've never done that I have to learn first. I'm 41 years old FFS and never changed a drive belt! I love it and get such a buzz when I manage to do these things and the car or bike still works... but it's not just common sense if you don't have the background. It's hard. Just like configuring an internet router would be for a mechanic, or a flying a Boeing would be for a doctor. Eh....
To see the wear of a chain hold it up sideways and notice the droop or arc. Engine o/h manuals give limits of dimension of pin centers of X number of links of a pulled chain. Great explanation with the knife. I paid teachers gobs of money before I understood that. You took a minute.
Thank you Matt your explanation has helped me.
Great job Matt - looking forward to the upcoming Materials 101.
I look forward to that video. While I have a better understanding of how materials react to stress and what the different measures mean than many around me do I still don't have a particularly good understanding of it and want to know more.
very well put!
Matt., that screaming goat /sheep is THE!! Most funny thing I've seen for yonks. Is it really making that scream. I love it.
Yes it is LOL
The strain and stress graph was amazing. In every single area of life this same analysis could be applied.
uu, I liked that: "that's not my name" "hello, my name is Matt".. lovely.
edit: and the rest of the video was awesome too.. I like that metal fatigue knowledge.. great!
Didn't the guy in the video express the tensile strength of steel in foot pounds (instead of psi or n/mm^2)? And then compare that number to the torque of the engine? Man he's shitting out of his mouth
Stephane Van Der Merwe Thought the same, didn't think the imperial system is that shit so it must be him
Yeah that guy didn't know anything about physics. If he did he wouldn't be mixing up his units!
Is there a chance that the analogy of stress vs strain was reversed? My understanding was that stress is the pressure applied (force per cross section) and strain is how much a material deforms as a percentage of its original length?
Was thinking the same thing. Strain is the direct result of the applied stress.
Huh. this video is kind of relevant to some calculations I did years ago out of curiosity regarding the amount of torque the tire sees. What that guy said (the amount of torque an engine produces is nowhere close to the rating for a chain) is simply incorrect, because he's forgetting gearing. And he fails to take into consideration the SIGNIFICANT amounts of stress that are applied in a situation not pure dyno pull. (bumps, braking, snapping the throttle, loss of traction).
The example I calculated is comparing an H2R to a Ninja EX500. the max final drive torque for an H2R is approximately 905 Ft/Lb, compared to the paltry 222 Ft/Lb for the EX500. Since you mention "should keep real world stress at 1/5 of yield rating", that means just doing a raw pull the H2R is already 10% of the MAX yield rating of a top grade chain, somewhere around 10,000 Ft/Lb.
Here's the link to the sheet. I also left in a few other engine/transmission combos.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e9KJ_14KDXcGa6-HbgobqE6rLjP1Gtu4wGsx12FRUpc/edit?usp=sharing
Why are you using torque (ft.lbs) - tensile strength is measured in psi not torque.....
Next intro music: Norman Bass: How U Like Bass. So many places to take a sample from for a video edit.
Keep up the quality content, really enjoy it all 👍
Oh I'm really looking forward to more metalurgy, I love that stuff.
One thing in particular I like is how different processes affect a metal with a specific composition differently like say taking a lump of aluminium and using half to make a cast piston and the other half to make a billet machined piston.
Just how much better are billet pistons than cast pistons anyway?
Great question and someone has sent me a forged and cats piston from the same engine, so we'll go into that then.
You're obviously a smart dude, but this is common sense buddy. You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the English language.
yeah the force pulls along the rivets making them bend and deform aka stretch.... of course they stretch lol
As always awesome video and I've learned a few new things :) Thank you
You still watching? LOL you've been hanging around this channel for years now dude - glad to see you're still here!
I watch on regular but don't always comment and I don't have any intentions to go anywhere as the quality of the content you're producing keeps getting better and better!!! Still remember few years ago just having my breakfast watching your ER5 video and you getting your arse out on the camera :D good times!
Nicely explained ol chap 👍🏻👏😎
my chains seemed to stretch when overtightened and the suspension makes the chain get tighter due to extreme wheel travel on dirt bikes(when compressed)...once i stopped adjusting my loose chain all the time i stopped buying chains all the time and started getting more than 50,000 miles on a dirt bike chain set...sure beveryone told me to adjust my loose looking chain but i never lost one and i even moved down from race bike chains to the cheap Tsubaki chain that has a crappy master link
Yeh I used to leave my chain just slightly loose enough that when I bottomed it out the chain went just tight. I never had chain issues.
The issue is that many riders don't understand the travel of swingarm and the affect when you have a fixed location of the driver sprocket. So depending on your ride and suspension set up and that distance then the slackness of the chain can be determined. However you can get to the point where too slack a chain can be dangerous. Too tight a chain causes other issues besides chain wear..
working load limit vs tensile strength
just when my eyebrow start to go up and i scratch my head, you take a knife and make all theory realy simple and obvious!! thats why i love this channel!! i want to know more about the "hooker" thing in the curve!
Hey Matt! Love the channel. Wondering if you could talk about stretching and single sided swing arms. Curious on how it changes the dynamics of a bike.
The average late model R6 motorcycle has about 114 links on the chain. Take into account a minute amount of wear elongation in that pin hole in each link, multiplied by most of the links, the result will be the chain will get more slack over time. It's really a series of stacking tolerances that amounts to a very small amount of slack in a chain.
The dude in the video you showed didn't take into account the multiplied forces from the crankshaft to the countershaft sprocket. Torque is multiplied through the transmission. Some 100 ft-lb crank will be much higher at the countershaft sprocket. Yeah chains are crazy strong. I'd like to see a variety of chain-break examples and see what it was that actually snapped.
You're an excellent teacher...
It's the weakest part of a chain that wears, namely the pins, which are made of soft steel so that they can have their ends deformed to secure them in place.
Split links have their pins made from hardened steel, which is why they last for decades and through many chain and sprocket replacements. In theory a chain made up of split links should outlast a conventional chain.
Chain life depends on the quality of the steel used in the chain links and pins, whether the chain was made by a top British or European manufacturer, whether the chain is maintained & lubricated, whether the chain is full enclosed, whether the chain runs in an oil bath and whether the bike has a slow drip feed total loss hot gearbox oil feed to the chain.
I've had a conventional high quality EU made chain outlast an Izumi O ring chain on a road bike by a few thousand miles. Never wasted my money on O ring chains since.
How the fuck anyone can say a chain does not stretch is beyond me .......so all that slack in my chain that was not there before is just magic I guess.
excellent. this is like a very entertaining mechanical engineering course...
Now I want to see if the plates themselves do stretch much at all. I mean everything (that is ductile) deforms to some degree under any load. Take some precise measurements on a bunch of the links and check later after use
LOL how precise? I can measure up to 1um but the repeatability is a bit sketchy. Most of the deformation will be elastic, however there will be fatgiue
The Workshop I forgot the rule- "never comment before the end of the video" you pretty much addressed everything I assumed you weren't going to ha.
Hope you'll do the video about the other metals. Thanks for the awesome explanation
Other metals? You'll have to jog my memory
@@dirtygarageguy You talked on the video about Yield/Stress and Strain, ultimate tensile strength. You said in the last minute. You're going to conduct an experiment at some point and see how other materials react. What's the Yield of those and so. I think that would be an awesome video. The explanation was super good and very easy to understand. Thanks for the great content
ua-cam.com/video/egGd7ZvP3wQ/v-deo.html
This is the playlist so far -
ua-cam.com/video/z25wcOJnbuQ/v-deo.html
@@dirtygarageguy 🤘🤘
The binding is totally gone with X-Ring chain or at least with the DID race chain. The O-ring chain out of the box had some binding where it doesn't want to move freely. DID X-Ring ERV3 = best chain. The free movement is immaculate even at the riveted master link. I wish bicycle chains had an X-ring option because the binding happens like O-ring chains. :(
The 2 dozen or so timing chains I've replaced or brought back to timing with offset woodruff keys suggest they do in fact stretch.
Brilliant video thank u ♥️👀👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
So ... am i right in thinking the front sprocket wears faster than the back one?
This is true, alas, chains wear due to lack of lubricant in the bearings, hence an enclosed chaincase in a Honda c90
Just watching this video again (that goat kills me). Quick question Matt. I read ages ago that a Timing belt will stretch less than a chain. Is this Cobblers.
Chains are going to strech, how much depends on the power they have to handle. Why do automatic camchain adjusters exist on pretty much every bike we see ;-) The guy in the video clearly used dirtbikes but made a mistake of making a statement towards streetbikes and more powerbikes. Sprockets taking the punch ;-)
First, how does "he" come to the conlcusion that the chain is "longer"......by looking at the slack?? Has the chain have to handle "worn" sprockets in his video/conclusion...I dont know and I dont care.
Every new chain on every new bike I have bought from the dealership always gets "longer" and you need to adjust the tension, period, or maybe the sprockets gets run in.... ;-)
Good video but you are talking about something that the "reference" didn't know about.
So is it actually the side plate 'O' hole itself that wears or the inside bushing? I'm a bit confused there.
The inside bushing - I'm making up a model to make it clearer
Oh i see, thanks a lot matt!
When I was 13 I built a motorized bike the first time I got it running my buddy rode it and the chain blew up into 5 different pieces. Im 20 and I ride motorcycles now. Fuck those Chinese engine kits.
isn't it already fucked when you hit the UTS? you're well in the plastic deformation when you hit UTS.
lol, i commented too early. sorry.
good song choice
yo bro it says on the manual for my xsr900 2019 that my chain tension should be 5mm to 15mm which when i have a feel on it, feels like a guitar string which is really tight. should i go with this or nah?
When you change one of the chains on your bikes do you think you could lay them next to each other get the old micrometer out and see how much it has stretched? Might be quite interesting.
Already on the cards dude
The Workshop nice!
my mind is growing ....not by any stretch of the imagination
LOL nice
As an American, I have a hard time understanding other accents sometimes. You start most of your videos with the same line. I have listened and listened, but I still can't make it out. All I get is blah, blah, blah Matt, welcome to the Workshop. Can you tell me what you are saying? It's driving me nuts!
MY name is Matt
Not quite clear on how torque and tensile strength are related. So say a chain is advertised as having the ultimate tensile strength of 10 Newtons, does it mean that I can run a maximum of 2 Newton metres of torque through it? Does sprocket ratio affect tensile strength?
Torque is force at a distance so a 10N chain for example could take a wheel torque of 10N if the radius of the sprocket was 1m.
So the force is linear, even with torque. There's no such thing as a twisting force.
@@dirtygarageguy ah, by the two 2N-m thing I referred to the part when you said that you don't want to subject a chain to more than one fifth of its advertised ultimate tensile strength daily.
Daily?
@@dirtygarageguy as in consistently. If I understood you correctly, you don't want your torque be anywhere near the ultimate tensile strength of your chain.
Yes that's true.
YES
Do chains get warm / hot in use? I assume the friction etc energy must go somewhere.
Must confess to being a cyclist, I came here at Ave's recomendation.
Yes mate - waste heat and part of thermodynamics. More coming soon
10 to the power of grey scull isnt it?
good video, the best even for non english talker like me
can't we just mount a steel or brass brush on the bike maybe near the front sprocket so it cleans off the shit all the time?
How would this work?
The Workshop for about 3 minutes. Saying that, if something could be done not a bad concept. I use a Grunge Brush to clean mine but they don't last long.
hmmm.. the wear on the chain by the steel or brass brush in the long term would be mental... and if you put a plastic brush, it wont last shite.... and it could also remove oil...
but... it would be great to have some brush that gets secure to the swingarm in a easy way to clean it once in a while, use a jackstand, put it in gear and let it clean it (careful with the fingers). Its kind of a pain in the arse cleaning it link by link with and old toothbrush!
guillo88
I like that idea. The Grunge Brush cleans 3 sides at once. Quite easily. Its about 10 dollars US.
use lasers! like that one fancy tool used to vaporize carbon buildup
How do I get to watch Dells workshop looks good LOL
No chains dont stretch, my bike keeps getting longer 😆😆
Worked with Oilfield Coiled Tubing. Fatigue management is huge. The higher the internal pressure while cycling over from a curved state to a straight state and back to a curved state the more fatigue. Until failure. Cheers Wanker. HaHa
Propper job. Time for a brew.
I think everything will wear when horses bang on it... Where does the power go when they talk about power loss? And Why is the power loss on the driveshaft so big?
This is along the lines of efficiency. If you put in 'X' amount of torque and over time this is power then how much of that 'power' is transfered from 1 sprocket to the other.
The power 'loss' is due to waste heat. The friction of all the links internally and between the sprockets and the chain is this waste heat. There's also noise, oscillation etc.
If you're talking about driveshafts then its the slide friction between gear teeth. We'll look at roller gears one day....
ok
That yanked my chain longer!
you answered you own question. chains do not stretch. they wear and open the hole and pins become smaller in diameter making it seam as if it is stretched.. It is worn.....Not stretched....
Refine 'stretched'
Why the goat, is there someting subliminal to catch or is just for shits?
just for the shits LOL
there is also a hippo wagging its tail while having a wet fart on the webs, maybe is more appropriate..
it's a rhetorical question right?
man, there's some really stupid people on the internet, doesn't matter how it happen, if it's longer so it stretched damnit
does peoples imagination stretch........
Young's modulus.
Go the Ting Tings!
Nwe knife in the post !!
Cosmic advice
Hi Matt,
really enjoy your approach to the various engineering matters and cutting the BS out.
Here is a clip of what appears to be a chain stretching on a drag racing bike. It had me thinking that it could be a flexible bushed swingarm, but the bike doesn't seem to swerve at all.Interested in your opinon:Cheers and thanks for your channel!ua-cam.com/video/u6ZsWwQ072E/v-deo.html
That's the chain oscillating due to losing traction - we'll cover this in detail soon
On the start line it seems tight like a guitar string, then on hard acceleration appears to become quite loose - the upper section stretching. Then off the throttle it tightens back up.
Surely a visual demonstration that chains do indeed stretch (elastic region of the stress-strain curve)
LOL they're pretty far from any real elastic deformation - the fatigue limit is pretty low on these chains. The slack that appears on the bottom of the chain is because of the upper side being under tension. The links are under load and there is clearance between each pin and bushing - this is that slack being taken up - this translates to the side of the chain not under load.
Great little clip
maybe I'm sleepy, but tensile strength in foot-pounds?
Yeah LOL I missed that one but noticed when doing the editing. Psi (force x area) is used, but in the real world (lol) MPa and GPa depending on the numbers/material being tested.
I was gonna give the guy the benefit of fucking up but then he did quote 'torque' or a bike.....
Who else has lost there chain breaker ???
You misspelled "yield" ya muppet.
"Chens"
1st
i think ill take advice from someone who didnt put that dumb song at the beginning of an educational video...
Dumb song? Is there such a thing?
@@dirtygarageguy a brain? Do u have 1?
Lol, are you going to dribble all over the comments or make a point?
@@dirtygarageguy i made my point in the first comment🤣 ur not very smart
You complained about a 5 second clip of a song you don't like. Some would call that childish...