thank god you said it doesn’t matter about the length of the chain, I was thinking surely the chain only pulls from the top and the chain is slack at the bottom. A bit like my flat tyre, its only flat at the bottom😅
OMG you have the patients of a saint!!! I remember doing c.v joints compared to U'J's at collage and when the lecture explained that U'J's speed changes on opening and closing half the class lost the plot!! He gave up in the end and just said "just line your U'J's up or else the shaft will vibrate like fuck"!
If the inner radius matter, both sprockets front and rear will wear together, reduce the inner diameter , but keep the ratio. Thank you Matt for sharpening our brain.
But they don't wear equally. Remember, they are running at a ratio to one another, that means that the small gear (the front sprocket) is going to have more interactions with the chain than the rear. Now trying to estimate wear rate It's extremely difficult because the front sprocket is usually well protected while the rear is out in the elements. Rain, grit, ect.
Here is Rumsfelds quote: There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
Well shit. I watched the first video about 5 hours ago and commented on it. I'm just now getting around to watching this one... So it's clear to me now that he did the tests back-to-back. I still wonder if the tyre pressures changed between tests (via heating due to riding, weather, etc). With such a small change in RPM during the two tests, it's certainly something that should be accounted for. Of course, to Matt's point in the previous video, there's probably enough slop in the speedometer & tachometer to make up the difference between tests. Thanks, Matt!
Sorry Matt have to correct on that one, about 18:50 into the video you say drive spocket move 2 teeth and driven spocket move 1 tooth, they both move 2 teeth but because of the gearing 2-1 1rev on drive spocket is 1/2 rev on the driven spocket. Thanks for the videos, keep up the good work.
Chains are fun. Roller chains are amazing when you experiment with how loose the chain can be without riding over the drive sprocket. The way the slack in the chain flutters and takes on curves. I've only ever dealt with roller chain. ---I haven't been able to play with the chains on DOHC setups. I've always found them fascinating based on the different curvature they have. Can't tell if they're cycloid or involute. The only other place I've seen that type of chain is on a Vietnam era cannon. It wrapped around a curved casting and then went into the base. I assume the curve converts linear crank rotations into the proper trajectory for a linear increase in range.
You are right about the teeth count. CAD automatically generates the teeth based on the radius. Even the manual machines DRO calculates based on size. So I am pretty sure the more teeth the sprocket has the bigger its diameter will have to be but will be relative to pitch. I think you doing a video on pitch wouldn't be boring. It does go hand in hand with this video.
Dunno if anyone else has pointed this out re Jim. Apart from Matts point sprockets don't wear much in the bottom if the the radius between teeth. They wear on the face the chain pulls against i.e. the side of the tooth. That's why a knackered sprocket has hooked teeth. In any case if sprocket wear did affect the ratio it would affect the front sprocket 3 times more that the back sprocket due to it being about a third of the size. This would lower the ratio and raise the revs.
A lot of what people are saying would actually apply if they were talking about belts and pulleys. They don't seem to get that a sprocket/chain drive is essentially a gear drive.
@@garfunkle187 Yep I admit I wasnt thinking about how a chain actually gets driven by a sprocket. If you look at it tooth by tooth you realise it moves it by the pitch of the teeth. I've just written a comment that explains how I was thinking about it.
I'd assumed if the basic stuff like the air density/air temperature and road conditions or gear selected being the same for both chain tests was eliminated essentially what you showed wasn't going to affect anything in this video would explain it. The curve change of the worn teeth meaning the new chain is moving differently. Thanks for this.
My 2 cents. I believe that it is all because of the old chain causing more friction on the clutch. So the clutch actually slips more at times. That's the nature of it. It's the shock feedback absorber for the crankshaft. Even on a small bump in the road it slips minot amounts. So a new chain, with less friction is less slip "aka" less rpms.
What would cause the clutch to slip is load, I.e resistance to turning. This is called the clutches torque capacity. A fucked chain would have to be seized. It wasn't.
The only to resolve this is to revisit the bike in question, run a rpm/speed test with the new chain and note the result; then refit the old chain and repeat the test. Is there a difference? Acording to Matt (and engineering physics) there should be none. Any spurious results could only be the result of human error and/or tolerance errors in speedo & rev counter systems. For ease and accuracy, testing could be observed on a dyno or whatever rather than having to drive it a couple of miles up and Down the road.
Very interesting video matty, This almost hits on a question I asked you a few months back about which is Better smaller or larger diameter centrifugal clutches interns of performance or as u put it in this video "forces"
Hey Matt question here that I have not given much thought but has crept in head time to time: In power transfer in sprocket-chain system (motorcycles transmission) where is the stress, that ultimately results in the torque at the axis, in the sprocket system? is it evenly spread across all the teeth engaged with the chain? (least likely I guess) Is it just in the tooth that's about to separate or engage the chain roller (depending on the direction of drive) or is it spread in a decreasing function across all teeth engaged? I would think that's the case, right? Max stress at the first teeth and basically zero at the last teeth? unless that chain is taut far beyond what was meant to operate. Any thoughts?
One way to explain this even more fully is to compare it with a timing chain. Timing chains get worn in exactly the same way as drive chains. The equivalent of driving and driven sprockets are the crankshaft and the cam sprockets. If wear was going to make the cam sprocket turn faster (or slower) then the cam would gradually get out of step with the crankshaft until something goes bang. But that doesn't happen.
Good explanation and I can see your logic. You get the drift of what I'm saying. Just so everyone can get in to my weird head let say we have two sprockets (front and back). The front has a diameter of 10 and the back has a diameter of 20. Lets exaggerate and say the sprockets wear at a rate of 1 per revolution. So to start with we have a ratio of 2:1. We do 1 revolution of the rear. The front sprocket now measures 8 (the front revolves twice) and the rear 19 (no longer 2:1). One more revolution and the front now measures 6 and the rear 18. We now have a 3:1 ratio. That's what I had in my mind which would be true for a pully system. However if you think about it as a single tooth at a time. And each tooth moves the chain one pitch at a time then the ratio would remain constant. I was thinking that the wear on the pitch would have an effect but I don't think it would the more I think on it. All of this is pretty irrelevant to the original question you was answering as you have now said it was exactly the same sprockets and just the chain that was changed.
Jim, I really think you were going in the right direction. Read into the Shimano Biopace system and importantly the reasons for it's development. Matt got it wrong about the sprocket tooth I.D. Not wrong from the engineering standpoint but wrong from a wear and rear standpoint. Granted, at the extreme wear, the chain will simply be unable to follow the tooth profile and will derail. But prior to that there will be a slight ratio change. As you said, the difference will very likely be very negligible but it will be there. Also, 1/2 a revolution is 1/2 a revolution in any diameter sprocket, gear, pulley. That principle is what allows us to utilize ratios. The question is how much work it takes to get it to turn the 1/2 a rev. I'd like to close by saying that none of the above changes the message of the original video and the chain age will definitely not affect the engine RPM at the same speed in the same gear. Something else was at play there.
As long as the tooth count doesn't change the gearing does not change. However if the diameter changes the forces obviously change. If the chain with a given force (engine torque and front sprocket beeing static) pulls on that now smaller diameter, you're getting less torque at the rear axle than before. This is why there is sort of an optimal dimension for sprockets for a given chain sizing and tooth count. Not to mention that the non ideal geometry of a worn sprocket is probably gonna wreck that chain/sprocket long before anything measurable happens. Cheers
@@VasyaIvanovichPupkin its impossible to have a ratio change. the diameter is irrelevant in this case. all that matters is the tooth count. no matter how much wear the sprocket has, it will still have 44 teeth per revolution. what WILL change is that, when the "inner diameter" gets smaller, the chain will apply the engine torque closer to the center of the sprocket/wheel, which will result in a reduced acceleration. but the amount of wear is so small, that i doubt there is any dyno that can actually measure the difference. and that will only happen if we assume that the wear only happens at the rear sprocket. if we apply the same wear on the front sprocket too, then there would be almost zero difference. if anything, the front sprocket (which rotates about 3 times faster on most bikes) would have 3 times the wear and the "inner diameter reduction"
What about ambient temp and the effects it has on the rear tier. Will there be any change in the tier diameter if it’s hotter on one of the test rides?
Matt, Yay or Nay ? In a smooth, constant load scenario, with a chain tensioned top and bottom and no deflection caused by suspension, chain slap surge etc. etc. etc. i.e. to isolate and measure the impact of chain wear Once a chain link is in contact with the sprocket it is static relative to the sprocket and links either side of it . Take the third link in on the rear sprocket, relative to the sprocket and other links, it doesn't move until it is nearly off the sprocket at the other end. So the only real movement and friction occurs when the link is going from being ''straight'' to curved to the same degree as the sprocket and back ''straight'' again. So in that case, a warn chain would only ever be imparting 4 to 6-8 bad links worth of losses anyway; which is why it's basically negligible in terms of power losses. ps: shuddup about Hondas gear driven cams, they are the dogs danglies; ask Tim !
The majority of the loss is friction, and the friction is between the pin and the Bush inside the chain. As for how much of the chain, its treated like a system, not individual links
Matt just make a video in cad showing how to constrain a sprocket from the chain pitch, it might clear things up for people, you can also show some of the designs of sprockets, of how manufactures have done things differently to reduce wear and make “less” friction.... look at a 12 speed mtb rear cassette they have drastically changed the design of a standard tooth sprocket,
A chain has a "pitch", that pitch is constant, the chain rotates on a specific diameter with a given diameter of the sprocket, if the diameter changes the chain starts to "bind" it does not go around the sprocket nicely, if you lower the diameter you need to change either the pitch or the teeth count, I've noticed the same on the circular sawblade, if you keep the number of teeth, they get smaller and smaller as you sharpen it, unless you drop a tooth out. Hope that makes sense.
So I understand the number of teeth on drive vs driven is the constant that gives our ratio. How about a comparison between o-ring, x-ring, and "racing chains" with no type of sealing out contaminates, or lube retaining additions between the links. I would be curious to see the real world power loss, and how small or great it might be.✌
The Pre 96 DR650 and DR800 have a lot of similarities under the plastics and tanks. One of which is oil change interval (6000km) Why is it if I put a bore up kit in the 650 (say, to 800 ) there's always the recommendation to change oil much more frequently (say to 3000 or 1500km) Basically what im asking is: What factors affect these maintenance intervals?
A chain and sprocket set is like both a belt and gears at the same time, it has a set non changing ratio that won’t be effected in ratio by wear like gears, but it has a component that doesn’t effect the end result like a belt (pulleys would change ratio with wear and gears in between the sprockets would change the ratio if they were spectually different than another
I mean, radius is a consequence of tooth count. Radius is determined by the amount of teeth of the sprocket, but not the other way around. Edit: for example, you cant make an "Xcm" diameter sprocket that leads to, say, 36 and a half teeth, because it wont work, it needs to have a complete number of teeth. Funny fact, sprockets are not necesarily round, they can be squared or other shapes as long as the perimeter has a certain amount of teeth that correspond with the chain's pitch. Look to oval or squared bicycle sprockets.
@@phrodendekia And the example in your second paragraph will show exactly how the gear ratio changes with the radius of the said tooth, regardless of the total tooth count. Read into the Shimano Biopace system and importantly the reasons for it's development. Matt got it wrong about the sprocket tooth I.D. Not wrong from the engineering standpoint but wrong from a wear and rear standpoint. Granted, at the extreme wear, the chain will simply be unable to follow the tooth profile and will derail. But prior to that there will be a slight ratio change. As the OP said, the difference will very likely be very negligible but it will be there. Also, 1/2 a revolution is 1/2 a revolution in any diameter sprocket, gear, pulley. That principle is what allows us to utilize ratios. The question is how much work it takes to get it to turn the 1/2 a rev. I'd like to close by saying that none of the above changes the message of the original video and the chain age will definitely not affect the engine RPM at the same speed in the same gear. Something else was at play there.
@@VasyaIvanovichPupkin I agree in what you said except in that "1/2 a revolution is 1/2 a revolution in any case" An engine cam sprocket (imagine a Honda C90 for example) has always twice the amount of teeth the crank sprocket has, because as the engine turns once, the cam turns just 1/2 a rotation. What gives the ratio is the amount of teeth.
Speaking of slipping clutches, were we ? Anyway, I get the chain thing. Seems like, on first hearing that the guy has a point but it is plainly not so. My little Kawasaki GTO has had a shitty clutch pretty much forever it seems. Forgetting what the symptoms alluded to, I went through a stage of over-revving it when the engine note used to change, etc coz I like the sound ( slipping clutch ). Mechanic wisely told me not to mess around like that while at speed. Anyroad, various modifications like a new-old cylinder and piston were done around that time after bearing and what have you went to shit unsurprisingly. The bike has been fine again for a few years now except for the apparent slipping clutch especially when bike is hot or I hit some nasty bump. It's worth mentioning that the plates were supposed to have been changed out once already without any noticeable major improvement ( that was before the bearings exploded ). I am getting to the point honest. All I really know about this stuff I've learned in the past 10+ years from watching such as yourself, Andy, Craig, and others and I am rather at the mercy of the " technicians " as I don't really have the facilities to sort it myself, etc. My question is, are there any other causes that could result in clutch-slipping like behaviour and, if not, is it dangerous to ride around like that if it only really kicks in when super hot? I'm a loyal fan so any mention would be greatly appreciated and I respect thee enough not to spit the dummy out when you call me a retard. Bring it on bitch! It would be fun to find out if anybody can even make head nor tail of what I'm on about.
With that 3-gear setup with one idler... The tooth count of that idler gear doesn't matter at all, does it? It's still just the input/output gear ratio
correct, you just ignore the idler when working out the ratio. In fact you can ignore multiple idlers in a train simply because 1 tooth movement on drive means one tooth movement on 1st idler, 1 tooth on 2nd idler etc all the way down the line till final drive which moves 1 tooth so its simply the ratio of driven tooth count/driven tooth, its like "the length of the chain " example..."hope that makes sense"
Yes thats correct, just imagine its like a mirror for each gear. 20 to 10 to 40 ends in the same result, apart from a direction flip. I.e the drive and driven both rotate the same direction.
Is there an ideal sprocket size to use on the drive side at a particular engine? As you can influence the ratio either on the wheel sprocket or on the driveside.
All that a worn sprocket gets you is LESS power, right? Example: Still same speed at same RPM but as the rear sprocket wears down, the leverage It has from the centre of the axle is less.
Needing to adjust the chain is because of stretch. Even if there’s wear on the sprockets they’re still gonna move the same number of links per rev. Wear in a gear train doesn’t change the ratio just the slop in the system or backlash. Good lord some people are dumb.
OK, I'll stick my neck out... My guess is the inaccuracy of most motorcycle speedometers, and on some, the tachometers. I'm guessing this change is some kind of averaging error inside the ECM or inside the display. This is my guess because I can't think of another reason why simply changing the drive chain would cause any difference between rpm and speed.
Quite possibly. In the UK, in order to pass muster on an MOT, speedos are allowed to display up to 110% of actual speed (but not below it); a 10% margin of error is already above the 7% discrepancy (IIRC) originally measured.
A relatively easy way of testing this would be to video a gps speedometer sitting side by side with an electronic tacho. As explained it's going to show that there is a direct correlation between engine rpm and motorbike speed. If you then wanted to compare the 2 chains for the effects that they have you would also look at the output of a mass airflow sensor to see how much energy the bike is needed to go at a given speed. Sadly though it would be impossible to maintain the exact same rider position/orientation/etc well enough that the rider's drag wouldn't be the major contributing factor in any variation.
well explained! Matt, is there a difference on the engine load/efficiency or output etc when changing your gearing - ie, one taller on the front or two smaller on the rear = which if any would be better for the engine performance? (hope that makes sense?) cheers.
I don't get why this would confuse people.gear ratios are fixed to RPM same gear same rpm,and sprockets and chains are the same.you could explain this with a bicycle tell them to go outside and set a bicycles upside down then put a mark on the front sprocket strait up count ten teeth back put another mark then put a mark on the rear chain strait down lined up with a mark on the frame then turn the front till the second mark is straight up then count the teeth on the rear from the mark on the frame to the mark on the chain it will be ten teeth.
At 18:20, drive turns 2 teeth, driven turns 2 teeth. In your model driven simply has twice as many teeth. I like your videos but surprised you missed this
Bike with chain and V-Belt on a drill press are the same thing. The wheel/sprocket diameters are only factor as this produces the ratio of movement in radians excluding losses. Mechanism is just detail.
Movement that creates friction and so losses in the form of heat? Tighter radius for the chain to follow on smaller gears and other direction changes as well as worn out poor bearing surfaces in the links and contamination such as dirt and grease. I think thats it.
so even if a chain is so knackered and has worse efficiency t han a new one. it wouldn't alter the amount of "effort" an engine would take to move it. DID states that X ring chains are much more efficient, which helps transfer power better. wouldn't that mean the engine would do less to do the same?
A single idle gear doesn't have any effect on gear ratio, only on driven gear direction. So in a way, he's right that the chain acts as an idler. Unfortunately, he doesn't understand how idlers work either. For example, assume drive gear of 40t, driven gear of 80t, and an idle gear of 20t. Ratios are 40:20 and 20:80, so 2:1 then 1:4, which leaves you with 2:4 or 1:2. Now swap out the idle gear with the equivalent of your kilometer long chain, a 2000t gear. Ratios are 40:2000 and then 2000:80, or 1:500 and then 500:2, which results, again, in a ratio of 1:2. (Un)surprisingly enough, the final ratio in this case is the same as that of the drive to driven gear. If you want the idler to change, you need two stacked gears in the middle, as you sometimes see in lathe gear setups.
Honda used gear driven cam timing in some engines in the rc and vfr lineup instead of the traditional chain driven cam timing. This eliminated chain wear problems and the need to replace the timing chain after X amount of miles. But this also added complexity to the system and some noise (which some like).
@@Number63fr Ah so he meant the gear driven cam system Yeah I love the sound rc51s and old vfr800s make Donno why he said the system's horrible :| Anyway, thanx for answering mate
As I said in the original vid on this... No one has taken into account the distance of the wheel from the old chain to new chain in the swing arm. I didn't see that Stuart said in this question to you Mat that he actually moved the axle forward when fitting the new chain but this being the only variable not taken into account I'm guessing that's the variable in question?
Just to add... It's the distance from the output shaft centre to the rear axle centre, That's why your swing arm has slots and not fixed with an idler pulley so as you adjust your axle either forward or back you are effectively changing the wheel base of the bike...
@@dirtygarageguy I don't agree, as I said, the only variable in this question is the chain yes? And, over time you move your wheel back to adjust the tension, so in affect the chain is getting longer, so if that is the case the chain is rotating slower as it is getting longer. That is the only difference I can see with this original comment by Stuart.
Chain is rotating slower? No its not. The time taken for the chain to complete 1 'orbit' has increased that is true. But that has no bearing on ratios. It's like saying a longer chain is heavier. Yes it is, but is has nothing to do with what we're talking about... To add the velocity of the links hasn't changed
Hi, I know I'm a bit off topic. My 2007 Suzuki SV1000S keeps on losing all power when I keep the throttle steady at 160km/h. This is my average cruising speed when I'm on the highway. I have checked over the usual stuff that could be the reason for this problem. The bike loses all power for a few seconds and then I have to close throttle and then when I open throttle the problem goes away... Sometimes this power lose problem accure at 120km/h. Any thoughts??
Possibly TPS. The contacts spark and carbon build up messes with the ecu. I have been dealing with similar issue on my '06 650 for years now. You can rag the crap out of it in any weather and it's fine, but long steady cruising is killing it. I would not loose all power as you stated but get vague sign of trouble while on a highway. However, once you get off the highway, it would not idle and I have to keep throttle open at the traffic lights. A quick fix on the side of the road for me, is to turn the ignition, leave the engine stopped, twist the throttle idle to WOT about 10 times, then start the engine. Seems to recalibrate the readings for a while, and I am in no rush to drop $70 on a new TPS any time soon.
@@dirtygarageguy I dunno conrod?crank?piston?F1 teams are supposedly 3d printing pistons now(I'm guessing for a while) You just said ask a question so I'm asking....for a friend
Its lucky these people don't do clocks - if you look at simple church clocks it's all about ratios - once you add BHP people loose their minds on drive shafts.
and for us bikers who also fix vintage clocks & watches, the fusée chain has some parallels with a cvt transmission- constant torque irrespective of mainspring force. Watchmaking is just micro-mechanical engineering 😉.
driver may have eaten couple hotdogs and forget to shit= weight of driver can change slightly :D and most likely WIND DIRECTION AND SPEED was different while making "test" + your mentioned speedo "accuracy"= that different rpm result at 100 km/h
I dont think it would. It'd just 'spool' excess chain off of the drive gear, until taught. The rear sprocket wouldn't move until slack was out of the chain.
At 18.20 "when this turns two, this turns one" aeehm No!!.. I'm sure it's just a brain fart.. But wrong still.. One sprocket turn one tooth, the other turn one tooth too.. That's the point with chains and sprocket.
Ok that's not quite what I meant, but correct anyway. The chain is effectively an idler gear as its only job is to transmit drive from one sprocket to the other. if you change the diameter of an idler get you change the ratio. my analogy was rubbish. I was suggesting, when the chain sprocket wears, then the chain is now sitting at a different diameter, so the ratio between the sprockets is no longer the same as before. Just because it still has 10 teeth and the other has 5 its no longer the exact 2:1 ratio it was when new; its less. Over time the teeth deform as a result of the chain sitting deeper into the sprocket. Its exactly the same priceable as a belt drive. My Bridgeport mill has variable speed belt drive. The belt doesn't change diameter at all, but I adjust the pully diameters to change the ratios and the speeds. Lets go back to the machining stage. I specialise in yacht steering system, and we use SS50 5/8" pitch chain for the chain and cable systems and on some auto pilot drive connections to the main system between 2 sprockets. If a customer breaks damages his sprocket and I need to machine an new one. The number of teeth pre-sets the diameter of the sprocket; it has to be that diameter or the teeth will not fit around its circumference; you can't have 11 and a half teeth. That diameter is fixed at the centre of the chain rollers. So a 10 tooth sprocket is 2.002" dia. a 20T sprocket is machined to 3.995" so already they are not exactly 2:1 ratio. if the 20T sprocket wears .040" ( 1mm) on the radius the chain now sits on a diameter of 3.915. Like I said, very small amount 2% reduction, every revolution but over thousands it has to make a difference. My stainless boat chain wears evenly as it operates in both directions - you would know better than I how a bike chain wears - I don't deal with them. My Suzuki's were shaft drive and the Harley is belt. Still doesn't help poor Stewart as he didn't change the sprocket wear on the chain shouldn't make a difference on ratio as it still sits on the same diameter. That's why I went into engineering when I left school in 1974 and did a 4 year apprenticeship as a Machine tool fitter and turner. Every day has been a school day- always something new to learn.
As for idle gears, again incorrect. The chain is not like an idler gear, and even in idle gear arrangements changing the idle gear size doesn't change the overall ratio.
You used the bridgeport pulley system as an example of a chain and sprocket, again wrong. They are not the same system. A chain and sprocket are more like a toothed belt system...
I said the pricible is the same changing the diameter of the pully changes the speed doesn't matter if its a sprocket or pully.. If the relationship changes so does the speed. So what you are saying is if I change the size of a sprocket It'll run at the same speed?? Wrong! Physically impossible. Think it's exactly the same the teeth just provide a positive no slip drive.
What the bloke is saying would be true because when the pin on the chain is getting levered off sprocket it would get pulled out of the inner diameter and would get pulled higher up the side of the sprocket radius..... , BUT if the inner has worn so has the radius and the highest part of the tooth so it’s all bollocks
Its not a pulley its a toothed sprocket all that matters is the ratio of teeth between the front and back thats the whole point of this video diameter is Irrelevant.
@@riddioughp i did read again you are wrong but it not important. You could have the chain worn any way you like to any extreme you like but as long as the numbers of teeth stay the same and as long as the chain didn’t jump teeth the ratio would remain the same and so the speed at any rpm would stay the same too.
No I was definitely wrong. I was thinking in line with how a pully system would work. However when you look at it in terms of the teeth doing the driving then its all about number of teeth and pitch.
Hi matt, i am a bastard from Norway. And i am making a go kart with a Honda NSR 125 engine for ice driving, if i remove the balancing shaft on the engine wll it gain some power?or blow up? ❤️ Your videos 👌
Time is measures in seconds, minutes, etc. RPM is measured in revolutions per minute... obviously not the same thing. Different measurements use different units, smart guy
OK here's my two cents , the old chain is damaged dry doesn't fit anymore so the engine has to work harder , just like going up a big hill and more work takes higher RPMs . Maybe the engine is bogging down and making less power at a given rpm , more energy slipping past the rings and valves and a lot of bad wind in the crankcase and the engine is working to hold it all in. Or maybe the clutch is slipping. I stopped watching at 14:34. Gotta stop eating those refried beans!
When you explained it wasn’t the same as a gear train you should have also explained its not the same as a pulley .....looking at the comments bellow (didn’t help most of your sprocket drawings looked like pulleys 😅🤦♂️)
And how does a smooth pulley compare to a toothed one? Does it function fundamentally different form an Inverted Tooth Chain? I think you are missing some commonality there.
@@VasyaIvanovichPupkin pulleys allow infinitely small differences in gearing but sprockets cant move independently to the chain or each other so are forced to follow the ratio of the number of the teeth. You cant have a half or quarter tooth.
I don’t think this analysis is correct. The radius the chain effectively rides on is the important factor here. Tooth count primarily dives this but component wear and component design can move the radius around a little. We argued about this for a long tine in a cycling forum because a BMX company makes 44 1/4 tooth sprockets. What helped me understand this is to just imagine the same system but instead of a looped chain a chain that runs over the top of the sprockets and just goes in a bucket. This made it a little easier to see how the chain system isn’t really that different from a rope and pulley system. The radius matters. A 2:1 drive system by tooth count can yield slightly lower or higher ratio ratios depending on the state/design of the sprocket and chain.
If stretched chains affected ratio it would be _very_ bad news for engines with timing chains. (Yes, I know it _will_ affect timing, but NOT the ratio).
thank god you said it doesn’t matter about the length of the chain, I was thinking surely the chain only pulls from the top and the chain is slack at the bottom. A bit like my flat tyre, its only flat at the bottom😅
OMG you have the patients of a saint!!! I remember doing c.v joints compared to U'J's at collage and when the lecture explained that U'J's speed changes on opening and closing half the class lost the plot!! He gave up in the end and just said "just line your U'J's up or else the shaft will vibrate like fuck"!
Christ... one wouldn't think this kind of stuff would need explaining in such detail...
They walk among us.
If the inner radius matter, both sprockets front and rear will wear together, reduce the inner diameter , but keep the ratio.
Thank you Matt for sharpening our brain.
But they don't wear equally. Remember, they are running at a ratio to one another, that means that the small gear (the front sprocket) is going to have more interactions with the chain than the rear. Now trying to estimate wear rate It's extremely difficult because the front sprocket is usually well protected while the rear is out in the elements. Rain, grit, ect.
Here is Rumsfelds quote:
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are
known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't
know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't
know we don't know.
I’m still looking for the 2 stroke rubber bands so I can fix the power band on my dirt bike
Theyre short and snap real quick ;p
What colour powerband are you using?
I switched from red to orange, mellowed it out a bit.
Powerband in every gear is what you want not just a few
@Alastair lmao I totally believe and have heard people talk about it that way... if they only realized it’s a spring 😣🤦♂️
Spring that controls the power valve by rpm, before someone wants to correct me lol
Imagining a 1 km chain connecting two sprockets 1 m apart sent me into a fit of laughter, thanks.
Well shit. I watched the first video about 5 hours ago and commented on it. I'm just now getting around to watching this one...
So it's clear to me now that he did the tests back-to-back. I still wonder if the tyre pressures changed between tests (via heating due to riding, weather, etc). With such a small change in RPM during the two tests, it's certainly something that should be accounted for.
Of course, to Matt's point in the previous video, there's probably enough slop in the speedometer & tachometer to make up the difference between tests.
Thanks, Matt!
Sorry Matt have to correct on that one, about 18:50 into the video you say drive spocket move 2 teeth and driven spocket move 1 tooth, they both move 2 teeth but because of the gearing 2-1 1rev on drive spocket is 1/2 rev on the driven spocket.
Thanks for the videos, keep up the good work.
Sorry?
Chains are fun. Roller chains are amazing when you experiment with how loose the chain can be without riding over the drive sprocket. The way the slack in the chain flutters and takes on curves. I've only ever dealt with roller chain.
---I haven't been able to play with the chains on DOHC setups. I've always found them fascinating based on the different curvature they have. Can't tell if they're cycloid or involute. The only other place I've seen that type of chain is on a Vietnam era cannon. It wrapped around a curved casting and then went into the base. I assume the curve converts linear crank rotations into the proper trajectory for a linear increase in range.
man you kill me every time you pull the power rangers, its just so unexpected I jump my seat all the time then roll over laughing!
You are right about the teeth count. CAD automatically generates the teeth based on the radius. Even the manual machines DRO calculates based on size. So I am pretty sure the more teeth the sprocket has the bigger its diameter will have to be but will be relative to pitch. I think you doing a video on pitch wouldn't be boring. It does go hand in hand with this video.
Dunno if anyone else has pointed this out re Jim. Apart from Matts point sprockets don't wear much in the bottom if the the radius between teeth. They wear on the face the chain pulls against i.e. the side of the tooth. That's why a knackered sprocket has hooked teeth.
In any case if sprocket wear did affect the ratio it would affect the front sprocket 3 times more that the back sprocket due to it being about a third of the size. This would lower the ratio and raise the revs.
A lot of what people are saying would actually apply if they were talking about belts and pulleys. They don't seem to get that a sprocket/chain drive is essentially a gear drive.
The problem in my mind is more to do with wear and that would change the ratio
@@jimwoollard8329 But 1 tooth on the drive sprocket equals 1 roller on the chain equals 1 tooth on the driven sprocket. Diameter/wear doesn't matter.
@@garfunkle187 Yep I admit I wasnt thinking about how a chain actually gets driven by a sprocket. If you look at it tooth by tooth you realise it moves it by the pitch of the teeth. I've just written a comment that explains how I was thinking about it.
Fair play to Jim.
Chain drive is not equal to gear drive. The two gears are not mechanically locked together, the chain is more like a rope that doesn’t slip.
I'd assumed if the basic stuff like the air density/air temperature and road conditions or gear selected being the same for both chain tests was eliminated essentially what you showed wasn't going to affect anything in this video would explain it. The curve change of the worn teeth meaning the new chain is moving differently.
Thanks for this.
Nice explanation of drive/driven idle gears etc..
A good one would be a moped gearbox no?
My 2 cents. I believe that it is all because of the old chain causing more friction on the clutch. So the clutch actually slips more at times. That's the nature of it. It's the shock feedback absorber for the crankshaft. Even on a small bump in the road it slips minot amounts. So a new chain, with less friction is less slip "aka" less rpms.
What would cause the clutch to slip is load, I.e resistance to turning. This is called the clutches torque capacity. A fucked chain would have to be seized.
It wasn't.
Amazing...thank God you threw in some Del, he has been more spastic than usual 😁
The only to resolve this is to revisit the bike in question, run a rpm/speed test with the new chain and note the result; then refit the old chain and repeat the test. Is there a difference? Acording to Matt (and engineering physics) there should be none. Any spurious results could only be the result of human error and/or tolerance errors in speedo & rev counter systems.
For ease and accuracy, testing could be observed on a dyno or whatever rather than having to drive it a couple of miles up and Down the road.
Very interesting video matty,
This almost hits on a question I asked you a few months back about which is Better smaller or larger diameter centrifugal clutches interns of performance or as u put it in this video "forces"
We're getting to cvt etc soon
Hey Matt question here that I have not given much thought but has crept in head time to time: In power transfer in sprocket-chain system (motorcycles transmission) where is the stress, that ultimately results in the torque at the axis, in the sprocket system? is it evenly spread across all the teeth engaged with the chain? (least likely I guess) Is it just in the tooth that's about to separate or engage the chain roller (depending on the direction of drive) or is it spread in a decreasing function across all teeth engaged? I would think that's the case, right? Max stress at the first teeth and basically zero at the last teeth? unless that chain is taut far beyond what was meant to operate. Any thoughts?
I don't know if Cliff Mogridge is saying that changing the idler on a gear system changes the ratio, but it does not
One way to explain this even more fully is to compare it with a timing chain. Timing chains get worn in exactly the same way as drive chains. The equivalent of driving and driven sprockets are the crankshaft and the cam sprockets. If wear was going to make the cam sprocket turn faster (or slower) then the cam would gradually get out of step with the crankshaft until something goes bang. But that doesn't happen.
Good explanation and I can see your logic. You get the drift of what I'm saying. Just so everyone can get in to my weird head let say we have two sprockets (front and back). The front has a diameter of 10 and the back has a diameter of 20. Lets exaggerate and say the sprockets wear at a rate of 1 per revolution. So to start with we have a ratio of 2:1. We do 1 revolution of the rear. The front sprocket now measures 8 (the front revolves twice) and the rear 19 (no longer 2:1). One more revolution and the front now measures 6 and the rear 18. We now have a 3:1 ratio. That's what I had in my mind which would be true for a pully system. However if you think about it as a single tooth at a time. And each tooth moves the chain one pitch at a time then the ratio would remain constant. I was thinking that the wear on the pitch would have an effect but I don't think it would the more I think on it. All of this is pretty irrelevant to the original question you was answering as you have now said it was exactly the same sprockets and just the chain that was changed.
Jim, I really think you were going in the right direction. Read into the Shimano Biopace system and importantly the reasons for it's development.
Matt got it wrong about the sprocket tooth I.D. Not wrong from the engineering standpoint but wrong from a wear and rear standpoint. Granted, at the extreme wear, the chain will simply be unable to follow the tooth profile and will derail. But prior to that there will be a slight ratio change. As you said, the difference will very likely be very negligible but it will be there. Also, 1/2 a revolution is 1/2 a revolution in any diameter sprocket, gear, pulley. That principle is what allows us to utilize ratios. The question is how much work it takes to get it to turn the 1/2 a rev.
I'd like to close by saying that none of the above changes the message of the original video and the chain age will definitely not affect the engine RPM at the same speed in the same gear. Something else was at play there.
As long as the tooth count doesn't change the gearing does not change. However if the diameter changes the forces obviously change. If the chain with a given force (engine torque and front sprocket beeing static) pulls on that now smaller diameter, you're getting less torque at the rear axle than before. This is why there is sort of an optimal dimension for sprockets for a given chain sizing and tooth count. Not to mention that the non ideal geometry of a worn sprocket is probably gonna wreck that chain/sprocket long before anything measurable happens. Cheers
@@VasyaIvanovichPupkin its impossible to have a ratio change. the diameter is irrelevant in this case. all that matters is the tooth count. no matter how much wear the sprocket has, it will still have 44 teeth per revolution.
what WILL change is that, when the "inner diameter" gets smaller, the chain will apply the engine torque closer to the center of the sprocket/wheel, which will result in a reduced acceleration. but the amount of wear is so small, that i doubt there is any dyno that can actually measure the difference.
and that will only happen if we assume that the wear only happens at the rear sprocket. if we apply the same wear on the front sprocket too, then there would be almost zero difference. if anything, the front sprocket (which rotates about 3 times faster on most bikes) would have 3 times the wear and the "inner diameter reduction"
I always adjust my clutch to slip a bit at all times. Saves on brake pads and disks, as I can stop the bike with my feet.
What about ambient temp and the effects it has on the rear tier. Will there be any change in the tier diameter if it’s hotter on one of the test rides?
there's this thing called a sprocket ratio chart
Matt,
Yay or Nay ?
In a smooth, constant load scenario, with a chain tensioned top and bottom and no deflection caused by suspension, chain slap surge etc. etc. etc.
i.e. to isolate and measure the impact of chain wear
Once a chain link is in contact with the sprocket it is static relative to the sprocket and links either side of it .
Take the third link in on the rear sprocket, relative to the sprocket and other links, it doesn't move until it is nearly off the sprocket at the other end.
So the only real movement and friction occurs when the link is going from being ''straight'' to curved to the same degree as the sprocket and back ''straight'' again.
So in that case, a warn chain would only ever be imparting 4 to 6-8 bad links worth of losses anyway; which is why it's basically negligible in terms of power losses.
ps: shuddup about Hondas gear driven cams, they are the dogs danglies; ask Tim !
The majority of the loss is friction, and the friction is between the pin and the Bush inside the chain. As for how much of the chain, its treated like a system, not individual links
If the chain is one kilometre long I think your ratio will not be a big concern hahaha
Matt just make a video in cad showing how to constrain a sprocket from the chain pitch, it might clear things up for people, you can also show some of the designs of sprockets, of how manufactures have done things differently to reduce wear and make “less” friction.... look at a 12 speed mtb rear cassette they have drastically changed the design of a standard tooth sprocket,
Good idea about the cad. Fucking doing pushbike stuff though lol
@@dirtygarageguy hahaha but yeah, maybe not show the mtb cassette on the channel but please have a look, SRAM eagle 12 speed
A chain has a "pitch", that pitch is constant, the chain rotates on a specific diameter with a given diameter of the sprocket, if the diameter changes the chain starts to "bind" it does not go around the sprocket nicely, if you lower the diameter you need to change either the pitch or the teeth count, I've noticed the same on the circular sawblade, if you keep the number of teeth, they get smaller and smaller as you sharpen it, unless you drop a tooth out. Hope that makes sense.
So I understand the number of teeth on drive vs driven is the constant that gives our ratio. How about a comparison between o-ring, x-ring, and "racing chains" with no type of sealing out contaminates, or lube retaining additions between the links. I would be curious to see the real world power loss, and how small or great it might be.✌
I've done that video...
The Pre 96 DR650 and DR800 have a lot of similarities under the plastics and tanks. One of which is oil change interval (6000km)
Why is it if I put a bore up kit in the 650 (say, to 800 ) there's always the recommendation to change oil much more frequently (say to 3000 or 1500km)
Basically what im asking is: What factors affect these maintenance intervals?
A chain and sprocket set is like both a belt and gears at the same time, it has a set non changing ratio that won’t be effected in ratio by wear like gears, but it has a component that doesn’t effect the end result like a belt (pulleys would change ratio with wear and gears in between the sprockets would change the ratio if they were spectually different than another
)*
Radius dosen’t matter the tooth count does..🤯🤯. Never would have guessed this.. thx matt
I mean, radius is a consequence of tooth count. Radius is determined by the amount of teeth of the sprocket, but not the other way around. Edit: for example, you cant make an "Xcm" diameter sprocket that leads to, say, 36 and a half teeth, because it wont work, it needs to have a complete number of teeth.
Funny fact, sprockets are not necesarily round, they can be squared or other shapes as long as the perimeter has a certain amount of teeth that correspond with the chain's pitch. Look to oval or squared bicycle sprockets.
@@phrodendekia
And the example in your second paragraph will show exactly how the gear ratio changes with the radius of the said tooth, regardless of the total tooth count. Read into the Shimano Biopace system and importantly the reasons for it's development.
Matt got it wrong about the sprocket tooth I.D. Not wrong from the engineering standpoint but wrong from a wear and rear standpoint. Granted, at the extreme wear, the chain will simply be unable to follow the tooth profile and will derail. But prior to that there will be a slight ratio change. As the OP said, the difference will very likely be very negligible but it will be there. Also, 1/2 a revolution is 1/2 a revolution in any diameter sprocket, gear, pulley. That principle is what allows us to utilize ratios. The question is how much work it takes to get it to turn the 1/2 a rev.
I'd like to close by saying that none of the above changes the message of the original video and the chain age will definitely not affect the engine RPM at the same speed in the same gear. Something else was at play there.
@@VasyaIvanovichPupkin I agree in what you said except in that "1/2 a revolution is 1/2 a revolution in any case"
An engine cam sprocket (imagine a Honda C90 for example) has always twice the amount of teeth the crank sprocket has, because as the engine turns once, the cam turns just 1/2 a rotation.
What gives the ratio is the amount of teeth.
There will be NO ratio change between the drive and driven. What dont you understand about that? The ratio is between teeth, nothing else.
@@dirtygarageguy saved me commenting Matt. Can't see why they don't understand. To ask the question isn't daft but some of these ideas certainly are!
Speaking of slipping clutches, were we ? Anyway, I get the chain thing. Seems like, on first hearing that the guy has a point but it is plainly not so.
My little Kawasaki GTO has had a shitty clutch pretty much forever it seems. Forgetting what the symptoms alluded to, I went through a stage of over-revving it when the engine note used to change, etc coz I like the sound ( slipping clutch ). Mechanic wisely told me not to mess around like that while at speed. Anyroad, various modifications like a new-old cylinder and piston were done around that time after bearing and what have you went to shit unsurprisingly. The bike has been fine again for a few years now except for the apparent slipping clutch especially when bike is hot or I hit some nasty bump. It's worth mentioning that the plates were supposed to have been changed out once already without any noticeable major improvement ( that was before the bearings exploded ). I am getting to the point honest.
All I really know about this stuff I've learned in the past 10+ years from watching such as yourself, Andy, Craig, and others and I am rather at the mercy of the " technicians " as I don't really have the facilities to sort it myself, etc.
My question is, are there any other causes that could result in clutch-slipping like behaviour and, if not, is it dangerous to ride around like that if it only really kicks in when super hot?
I'm a loyal fan so any mention would be greatly appreciated and I respect thee enough not to spit the dummy out when you call me a retard. Bring it on bitch! It would be fun to find out if anybody can even make head nor tail of what I'm on about.
So the last demonstration was Isaac's chain Matt?
Ya the bastard of a stunt bike with a 60 tooth sprocket runs like fuck to get to the same speed 🤣
With that 3-gear setup with one idler... The tooth count of that idler gear doesn't matter at all, does it? It's still just the input/output gear ratio
correct, you just ignore the idler when working out the ratio. In fact you can ignore multiple idlers in a train simply because 1 tooth movement on drive means one tooth movement on 1st idler, 1 tooth on 2nd idler etc all the way down the line till final drive which moves 1 tooth so its simply the ratio of driven tooth count/driven tooth, its like "the length of the chain " example..."hope that makes sense"
Yes thats correct, just imagine its like a mirror for each gear. 20 to 10 to 40 ends in the same result, apart from a direction flip. I.e the drive and driven both rotate the same direction.
Is there an ideal sprocket size to use on the drive side at a particular engine? As you can influence the ratio either on the wheel sprocket or on the driveside.
Yes, to fit the space that's available. There is a max/min and ill be talking about that in the next video
@@dirtygarageguy 👍🏻 ok looking forward to that one
ever see a reference so subtle your not sure if its your own confirmation bias?
All that a worn sprocket gets you is LESS power, right? Example: Still same speed at same RPM but as the rear sprocket wears down, the leverage It has from the centre of the axle is less.
The other way around, the load is higher on the engine...
Needing to adjust the chain is because of stretch. Even if there’s wear on the sprockets they’re still gonna move the same number of links per rev. Wear in a gear train doesn’t change the ratio just the slop in the system or backlash. Good lord some people are dumb.
Hey Matt, where can I find the go go Power rangers clip? Searched everywhere...
ua-cam.com/video/OzTSmHgdS0Q/v-deo.html
@@dirtygarageguy legend
OK, I'll stick my neck out... My guess is the inaccuracy of most motorcycle speedometers, and on some, the tachometers. I'm guessing this change is some kind of averaging error inside the ECM or inside the display. This is my guess because I can't think of another reason why simply changing the drive chain would cause any difference between rpm and speed.
Quite possibly. In the UK, in order to pass muster on an MOT, speedos are allowed to display up to 110% of actual speed (but not below it); a 10% margin of error is already above the 7% discrepancy (IIRC) originally measured.
A relatively easy way of testing this would be to video a gps speedometer sitting side by side with an electronic tacho. As explained it's going to show that there is a direct correlation between engine rpm and motorbike speed. If you then wanted to compare the 2 chains for the effects that they have you would also look at the output of a mass airflow sensor to see how much energy the bike is needed to go at a given speed. Sadly though it would be impossible to maintain the exact same rider position/orientation/etc well enough that the rider's drag wouldn't be the major contributing factor in any variation.
FYI Churchill tank, has sprocket drive and idler.
since i set the slack of my chain to 1,5 inch (measured between underside chain and the street) never had any more problems
well explained!
Matt, is there a difference on the engine load/efficiency or output etc when changing your gearing - ie, one taller on the front or two smaller on the rear = which if any would be better for the engine performance? (hope that makes sense?) cheers.
Yes there could be a difference with load and efficiency, but not this would no effect what rpm the engine was doing at any given mph.
@@paulgregory39 cheers! this question wasn't in relation to the previous 'experiment'. i was just curious in general. cheers mate.
I don't get why this would confuse people.gear ratios are fixed to RPM same gear same rpm,and sprockets and chains are the same.you could explain this with a bicycle tell them to go outside and set a bicycles upside down then put a mark on the front sprocket strait up count ten teeth back put another mark then put a mark on the rear chain strait down lined up with a mark on the frame then turn the front till the second mark is straight up then count the teeth on the rear from the mark on the frame to the mark on the chain it will be ten teeth.
At 18:20, drive turns 2 teeth, driven turns 2 teeth. In your model driven simply has twice as many teeth. I like your videos but surprised you missed this
I was about to comment the same thing. Both sprockets would advance 2 teeth but the larger sprocket would travel half the number of degrees.
Yes, slip of the tongue, instead of teeth he meant degrees.
different tyre pressure at both tests?
The wear the character subject thinks would alter gear ratio is what causes slop and backlash SOURCE: it just occurred to me
Bike with chain and V-Belt on a drill press are the same thing. The wheel/sprocket diameters are only factor as this produces the ratio of movement in radians excluding losses. Mechanism is just detail.
No they're not...
What things affect the efficiency of chains and sprockets?
Movement that creates friction and so losses in the form of heat? Tighter radius for the chain to follow on smaller gears and other direction changes as well as worn out poor bearing surfaces in the links and contamination such as dirt and grease. I think thats it.
Great question... I smell a video coming
so even if a chain is so knackered and has worse efficiency t han a new one. it wouldn't alter the amount of "effort" an engine would take to move it.
DID states that X ring chains are much more efficient, which helps transfer power better. wouldn't that mean the engine would do less to do the same?
You'll need more throttle with a worn chain , but x rpm in y gear is still z mph
Its all about force and force applied over distance over time is power or (effort). Distance is the rotations.
You backup all your videos now right? As protection from dellend attacks?
A single idle gear doesn't have any effect on gear ratio, only on driven gear direction. So in a way, he's right that the chain acts as an idler. Unfortunately, he doesn't understand how idlers work either.
For example, assume drive gear of 40t, driven gear of 80t, and an idle gear of 20t. Ratios are 40:20 and 20:80, so 2:1 then 1:4, which leaves you with 2:4 or 1:2. Now swap out the idle gear with the equivalent of your kilometer long chain, a 2000t gear. Ratios are 40:2000 and then 2000:80, or 1:500 and then 500:2, which results, again, in a ratio of 1:2.
(Un)surprisingly enough, the final ratio in this case is the same as that of the drive to driven gear.
If you want the idler to change, you need two stacked gears in the middle, as you sometimes see in lathe gear setups.
16:51
Can you elaborate on the Honda system you mentioned mate?
Thanx
Honda used gear driven cam timing in some engines in the rc and vfr lineup instead of the traditional chain driven cam timing. This eliminated chain wear problems and the need to replace the timing chain after X amount of miles. But this also added complexity to the system and some noise (which some like).
@@Number63fr Ah so he meant the gear driven cam system
Yeah I love the sound rc51s and old vfr800s make
Donno why he said the system's horrible :|
Anyway, thanx for answering mate
Its horrible because its heavy, costly and produces higher losses...
@@dirtygarageguy Man you need to make a video to compare all these systems together
thanx for the reply
As I said in the original vid on this... No one has taken into account the distance of the wheel from the old chain to new chain in the swing arm. I didn't see that Stuart said in this question to you Mat that he actually moved the axle forward when fitting the new chain but this being the only variable not taken into account I'm guessing that's the variable in question?
Just to add... It's the distance from the output shaft centre to the rear axle centre, That's why your swing arm has slots and not fixed with an idler pulley so as you adjust your axle either forward or back you are effectively changing the wheel base of the bike...
It's not a ratio change it's a distance and time change.
Wheelbase, or chain length or any other dimensional change like this changes nothing, but something else does...
@@dirtygarageguy I don't agree, as I said, the only variable in this question is the chain yes? And, over time you move your wheel back to adjust the tension, so in affect the chain is getting longer, so if that is the case the chain is rotating slower as it is getting longer. That is the only difference I can see with this original comment by Stuart.
Chain is rotating slower? No its not.
The time taken for the chain to complete 1 'orbit' has increased that is true. But that has no bearing on ratios. It's like saying a longer chain is heavier. Yes it is, but is has nothing to do with what we're talking about...
To add the velocity of the links hasn't changed
Hi, I know I'm a bit off topic.
My 2007 Suzuki SV1000S keeps on losing all power when I keep the throttle steady at 160km/h.
This is my average cruising speed when I'm on the highway.
I have checked over the usual stuff that could be the reason for this problem.
The bike loses all power for a few seconds and then I have to close throttle and then when I open throttle the problem goes away...
Sometimes this power lose problem accure at 120km/h.
Any thoughts??
Possibly TPS. The contacts spark and carbon build up messes with the ecu.
I have been dealing with similar issue on my '06 650 for years now. You can rag the crap out of it in any weather and it's fine, but long steady cruising is killing it. I would not loose all power as you stated but get vague sign of trouble while on a highway. However, once you get off the highway, it would not idle and I have to keep throttle open at the traffic lights.
A quick fix on the side of the road for me, is to turn the ignition, leave the engine stopped, twist the throttle idle to WOT about 10 times, then start the engine. Seems to recalibrate the readings for a while, and I am in no rush to drop $70 on a new TPS any time soon.
Forged or billet which is best and why?
Billet what?
@@dirtygarageguy I dunno conrod?crank?piston?F1 teams are supposedly 3d printing pistons now(I'm guessing for a while)
You just said ask a question so I'm asking....for a friend
Unknown Unknowns - Donald Bush 2002, did you mean Donald Rumsfeld 😉
That was the joke...
Its lucky these people don't do clocks - if you look at simple church clocks it's all about ratios - once you add BHP people loose their minds on drive shafts.
and for us bikers who also fix vintage clocks & watches, the fusée chain has some parallels with a cvt transmission- constant torque irrespective of mainspring force. Watchmaking is just micro-mechanical engineering 😉.
so i just spent the last 3 hours on swigging vodka ......🤪 and what was it i wanted to say 🤔...oh i remember
driver may have eaten couple hotdogs and forget to shit= weight of driver can change slightly :D and most likely WIND DIRECTION AND SPEED was different while making "test" + your mentioned speedo "accuracy"= that different rpm result at 100 km/h
Hey Matt, can you do a video on how a slider clutch works
slipper clutch?
@@motopenguin8923 drag racing slider clutch
Have you been watching some Darkside Development videos?? ;-)
Good good 👍
For the top of the long chain to get tight it would have to jump teeth.
I dont think it would. It'd just 'spool' excess chain off of the drive gear, until taught. The rear sprocket wouldn't move until slack was out of the chain.
@@andreasharboe1631 yeah,i see what you mean.
At 18.20 "when this turns two, this turns one" aeehm No!!.. I'm sure it's just a brain fart.. But wrong still.. One sprocket turn one tooth, the other turn one tooth too.. That's the point with chains and sprocket.
....
Ok that's not quite what I meant, but correct anyway. The chain is effectively an idler gear as its only job is to transmit drive from one sprocket to the other. if you change the diameter of an idler get you change the ratio. my analogy was rubbish.
I was suggesting, when the chain sprocket wears, then the chain is now sitting at a different diameter, so the ratio between the sprockets is no longer the same as before. Just because it still has 10 teeth and the other has 5 its no longer the exact 2:1 ratio it was when new; its less. Over time the teeth deform as a result of the chain sitting deeper into the sprocket.
Its exactly the same priceable as a belt drive. My Bridgeport mill has variable speed belt drive. The belt doesn't change diameter at all, but I adjust the pully diameters to change the ratios and the speeds.
Lets go back to the machining stage. I specialise in yacht steering system, and we use SS50 5/8" pitch chain for the chain and cable systems and on some auto pilot drive connections to the main system between 2 sprockets. If a customer breaks damages his sprocket and I need to machine an new one. The number of teeth pre-sets the diameter of the sprocket; it has to be that diameter or the teeth will not fit around its circumference; you can't have 11 and a half teeth.
That diameter is fixed at the centre of the chain rollers. So a 10 tooth sprocket is 2.002" dia. a 20T sprocket is machined to 3.995" so already they are not exactly 2:1 ratio. if the 20T sprocket wears .040" ( 1mm) on the radius the chain now sits on a diameter of 3.915.
Like I said, very small amount 2% reduction, every revolution but over thousands it has to make a difference.
My stainless boat chain wears evenly as it operates in both directions - you would know better than I how a bike chain wears - I don't deal with them. My Suzuki's were shaft drive and the Harley is belt.
Still doesn't help poor Stewart as he didn't change the sprocket wear on the chain shouldn't make a difference on ratio as it still sits on the same diameter.
That's why I went into engineering when I left school in 1974 and did a 4 year apprenticeship as a Machine tool fitter and turner. Every day has been a school day- always something new to learn.
This is still wrong. Wear does not effect the ratio of a chain and sprocket system, never has, never will.
As for idle gears, again incorrect. The chain is not like an idler gear, and even in idle gear arrangements changing the idle gear size doesn't change the overall ratio.
You used the bridgeport pulley system as an example of a chain and sprocket, again wrong. They are not the same system. A chain and sprocket are more like a toothed belt system...
I said the pricible is the same changing the diameter of the pully changes the speed doesn't matter if its a sprocket or pully.. If the relationship changes so does the speed. So what you are saying is if I change the size of a sprocket It'll run at the same speed?? Wrong! Physically impossible. Think it's exactly the same the teeth just provide a positive no slip drive.
That relationship is called the ratio, and you said due to wear this ratio will change for chains and sprocket, but it doesn't.
What is your lube of choice Matt?
85w-90 gear oil. Or whatever yamalube makes.
durex play
@@mateuszbarya9098 how do you know Matt prefers that one? 🤔
The tears of heartbroken hookers.
Mixed with strawberry jam.
@@dirtygarageguy amazon? link please. 😁👌
What the bloke is saying would be true because when the pin on the chain is getting levered off sprocket it would get pulled out of the inner diameter and would get pulled higher up the side of the sprocket radius..... , BUT if the inner has worn so has the radius and the highest part of the tooth so it’s all bollocks
Its not a pulley its a toothed sprocket all that matters is the ratio of teeth between the front and back thats the whole point of this video diameter is Irrelevant.
@@jons6125 read again dude, I know -.-
@@jons6125 if you could unevenly wear a sprocket... (impossible) his theory would actually hold some merit
@@riddioughp i did read again you are wrong but it not important. You could have the chain worn any way you like to any extreme you like but as long as the numbers of teeth stay the same and as long as the chain didn’t jump teeth the ratio would remain the same and so the speed at any rpm would stay the same too.
No I was definitely wrong. I was thinking in line with how a pully system would work. However when you look at it in terms of the teeth doing the driving then its all about number of teeth and pitch.
👌👍
Hi matt, i am a bastard from Norway. And i am making a go kart with a Honda NSR 125 engine for ice driving, if i remove the balancing shaft on the engine wll it gain some power?or blow up? ❤️ Your videos 👌
Dont. Simple as that
Ok, thank you 👍
cant save everybody
Dude that is not right rpm is time.
Time is measures in seconds, minutes, etc. RPM is measured in revolutions per minute... obviously not the same thing. Different measurements use different units, smart guy
OK here's my two cents , the old chain is damaged dry doesn't fit anymore so the engine has to work harder , just like going up a big hill and more work takes higher RPMs . Maybe the engine is bogging down and making less power at a given rpm , more energy slipping past the rings and valves and a lot of bad wind in the crankcase and the engine is working to hold it all in. Or maybe the clutch is slipping. I stopped watching at 14:34. Gotta stop eating those refried beans!
When you explained it wasn’t the same as a gear train you should have also explained its not the same as a pulley .....looking at the comments bellow (didn’t help most of your sprocket drawings looked like pulleys 😅🤦♂️)
Yep my thought train was going more down the pully line on the original video.
And how does a smooth pulley compare to a toothed one? Does it function fundamentally different form an Inverted Tooth Chain? I think you are missing some commonality there.
@@VasyaIvanovichPupkin pulleys allow infinitely small differences in gearing but sprockets cant move independently to the chain or each other so are forced to follow the ratio of the number of the teeth. You cant have a half or quarter tooth.
I don’t think this analysis is correct. The radius the chain effectively rides on is the important factor here. Tooth count primarily dives this but component wear and component design can move the radius around a little. We argued about this for a long tine in a cycling forum because a BMX company makes 44 1/4 tooth sprockets. What helped me understand this is to just imagine the same system but instead of a looped chain a chain that runs over the top of the sprockets and just goes in a bucket. This made it a little easier to see how the chain system isn’t really that different from a rope and pulley system. The radius matters. A 2:1 drive system by tooth count can yield slightly lower or higher ratio ratios depending on the state/design of the sprocket and chain.
THIS IS TOTAL BOLLOCKS. What are you are talking about
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If stretched chains affected ratio it would be _very_ bad news for engines with timing chains. (Yes, I know it _will_ affect timing, but NOT the ratio).