A Tale of Two Sterlings: Mk.4 (open bolt) vs Mk.6 (closed bolt), First Impressions
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- Опубліковано 10 сер 2024
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Thanks to supporters, BotR now has a second Sterling SMG subgat! This one is a factory original Mk.6, the factory closed bolt version. Bloke has been doing sterling work (geddit?!?) with his open bolt Mk.4 for a number of years now, and the opportunity to add a closed bolt Mk.6 to the channel collection couldn't be passed up.
Here's the lads' first impressions on the 50m range!
0:00 Introduction to Sterling Mark 4 and Mark 6
1:40 Mike's Shooting Impressions
4:57 Fabien's Shooting Impressions
6:20 Comparison of Sterling Mark 4 and Mark 6
8:32 Discussion on Ease of Shooting
11:14 Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks
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I bought a 16" barreled Mk.6 when they first entered the US in the 1980s. I don't recall ever shooting it before I sent it off to Bill Fleming for a full auto open bolt conversion. At the time there were no L2A3 parts to be had, so Bill modified what was in the gun. The importer later acquired some L2A3 parts, including a proper bolt and barrel, which I was able to install myself. I ended up with a true L2A3 which has been a "blaster" to shoot. And unlike Imperial Storm Troopers, I am able to hit what I aim at.
Ah... nostalgic.... back in the early nineties here in India, factory fresh 1A1s in old spec (Splendid almost Sterling things) were still being issued to the Police here. By OFB standards these were really nicely made specimens. Sadly some time towards the end of the 90s, SAF started introducing the 'upgraded' 1A1 SMGC .... essentially the only upgrade being a second 'interceptor' sear forward of the main sear, meant to deal with accidental bump or slip discharges....the other main 'upgrade' was cheapening of fit and finish....awful finish, to put it kindly. Magazines too became dodgy.
Kargil War time production magazines were specially super dodgy.
Small Metal Gun. Best looking Small Metal Gun ever.
As a young man I used to be issued one of those, I loved them, them mags are probably the best beer bottle openers ever designed, enjoy them.
The 1st machine gun i ever fired was a sterling, i was 14 or 15 yrs old, my dad was a cop in the RUC, sum inspector had the idea of teaching cops teen kids how to safely handle guns and shot, and combine it with the summer school that the cops had for there kids, they had lots of programs like this, fun days, barbecues and trips to different countries hosted my that countries police force, i got to go to Germany for 3 weeks with them, it was for kids that families had suffered badly in the Troubles, but this 1 time we got to go to the police range and got to handle and shot all different types of RUC weapons, Sterling SMG, M1 Carbine, Ruger mimi14, .38/.357 revolver, PPK&PP pistol and the 1 i liked the most, the old SLR, i was army barmy as a kid and kinda still am, my dad was kinda disappointed i didn't follow in his footsteps, i join the army, was a part timer in the royal irish for almost 3yrs. Im still not sure what the reason was, weather it was because of safety or self defence, sum kids found their parents gun and shot themselves or sumbody else, messing around with it, i know my dad always had a fear i would be mistaken for him by the IRA, he did get to take home M1 Carbines and Sterling for a time, he was under heavy treat. he learnt us to shoot & fish years before this. and he did hand me his walter PP 1 time because sum IRA guys tried to come our home and kill him, which was spicy,not to say the least, brown trouser time for me lol
I have the E11 version. I'd like to see a shooting comparison with that.
Carried one in Ireland in the 70s when carrying the man pack radio. Put loads of rounds down range training. A lovely handy little weapon, reliable, light and easy to use . In fact I don't remember a single jam or stoppage . Surprisingly accurate right out to 200m.
I well remember the bickering once getting into the back of a Land Rover as the guy with the Sterling (a lance corporal) refused to swap seats with the private with the SLR despite him pointing out that if Mr Sterling opened fire all the cartridge cases would go into Mr SLRs face. Fortunately, the Colour Sgt appeared and sorted things out!
The National Firearms Act of 1934 was where the obscene short-barrel rifle was concocted. Originally the minimum barrel length was 18 inches, but in the early '60s, Congress amended the law to shorten rifle barrels to 16 inches, to accommodate surplus M1 carbines being released onto the market.
Which is why the minimal barrel length for shotguns is still 18" (not counting weird pistol-grip only 'firearms'). That had always puzzled me, until I found out about the surplus M1 Carbines and their 17 3/4" barrels.
@@jic1 Yeah, I wondered the same thing until Ian McCollum talked about it during a special Forgotten Weapons episode on SBR rules during the pistol brace brouhaha.
I heard that this Act also makes it so difficult to buy silencers in the US.
@@scottrobinson3281 Expensive (due to a $200 tax stamp) and time-consuming mainly, from what I've heard. Although apparently suppressor paperwork has been going through lightning-fast recently.
@@scottrobinson3281it really depends on the time and place.
It’s been $200 since 1934 so inflation has gradually made that from “basically a ban” to “an annoyance”.
The paperwork is fairly benign sort of like getting a passport. But back in the day you needed the chief of police in your jurisdiction to sign off saying you weren’t a criminal. Many refused to sign under any circumstances = defacto ban. That was worked around with “trusts” which didn’t need a sign off. Now trusts need the same background check as individuals but now the police don’t get any say. They just get a notification. It’s on them to contact the atf if they have proof you are a criminal.
Now the biggest hassle was the wait time. It’s varied anywhere from 2 days to 2 years depending on when and what. In the 80s and 90s the atf was famous for losing your paperwork and taking over a year. Now with eforms it can take a month or less.
Silencers did not become common till trusts in the early 2000s (timed with $200 falling below half the cost of a can)
SBRs were extremely UNcommon pre 1986 as if you were gonna do that paperwork. Might as well have a Maching Gun (pre 1986 you could add new MGs to the registry). And even then SBRs didn’t really take off until cans since the can makes a 16” gun so long. Also semi auto short barreled pistols were not popular until recently. And then came the braces for those…..
I trained with the sterling whilst serving in the Canadian army.
The Stirling is still my all time favourite from my collection. I got mine years ago, all original with Rhodesian Army markings. In my opinion easily the best open bolt smg ever fielded. The Sten MK5 with the adjustable frontsights is a great shooter as well! Thanks for the great content Mike! Any update on firing that Welrod with wipes? Waiting for my BT Station Six...
That Welrod went to a new owner many years back. Getting genuine new wipes would have been a non starter in any case.
Watch the assault of Piz Gloria in the film On His Majesty's Secret Service to see the Sterling SMG in its full glory.
Looking forward to the eventual nerdy vid on testing the API thing. It would be good to see some high speed video of the bolt closing on a live round vs a dummy. That ought to be definitive, right? If API you should see the bolt begin to slow down before it fully closes... accellerometer data will be super interesting too.
Love the way the stock is designed and the finish is badass too!
Cold War pipe Gats. I have never shot a closed bolt conversion that I was impressed with. The open bolt design lockup is just better handling but always a bit of a surprise after the trigger pull. Thanks Bloke and Chap for taking us to the range. And congrats Bloke for the new pew.
Long live Elbonia !!!
I did see that patch!
When I was in armourer training in Borden 38 years ago where we were taught on the Sterling. The round fires while the momentum of the bolt is still moving forward effectively acting like a heavier bolt and spring. It's interesting to see that in action.
it is called advanced primer ignition, and is used on several open bolt weapons
I too had that “weird” moment when, many years ago now, I first went to load a closed bolt Sterling, having fired the L2A3 a few times as a cadet. Not sure which model the closed bolt version was, it belonged to a friend, but this was not in the US so it did have the normal L2A3/Mk 4 length barrel. Too much time had elapsed since I had lost shot an L2A3 for me to really notice any difference, other than with the aforementioned handling of course.
That was a Mk 6 without the barrel having been cut off like mine here.
@@BlokeontheRangeThis was in Europe, sort of, not the US, so no silly barrel length rules. Don’t recall it looking chopped so I’d always assumed it was a Mk 6, but with a standard length barrel, but your comments on the Mk 6 not taking standard parts make me now wonder if it was actually a Mk 8. Its owner worked for an RFD at the time and thus he had lots of Gucci kit. Anyway more Sterling content is always welcome.
If it looked like a Mk.4 (no barrel nut, no protruding barrel) but was closed bolt semiauto, and was as it came out the factory, it was a Mk.8
Very interesting, guys. Thanks for showing them to us.
Great comparison guys looking forward too the strip down in the workshop ❤
Nice Elbonian patch Bob
I love the giddy enthusiasm from the two of you getting to do this.
I think I've said it before - here on FB - that I really wish I had bought one of the closed-bolt Sterlings when they came on the U.S. market about ten years ago. Actually, I should have bought two, so I could turn one into a Stormtrooper carbine, but both would have been SBR'ed.
The sterling's I fired in the 1980s had a fixed firing pins, if you rapidly pulled the trigger, even with semi auto set, it would suddenly go fully automatic, I thought it was a pretty poor weapon.
When you told chappie to shoot five, I was expecting an insert of the Brigadier ordering “five rounds, rapid“
I had an L2A3 that had be an converted to semi auto in the mid 80's. A mate in the same club had a new mark 8 , he had our local gunsmith cut the barrel down to service length before he put a round through it. He preferred shooting mine as it has a nicer action. At the time, I also noticed the weight difference between the two.
Mk IV Sterling remains a personal fave of mine, if nothing I'm like to ever have in my safe.
Damn, wish I had target frames that move like that.
The Mk6 recoil buffer spring ruins the constant recoil cycle by effectively acting as a hard stop for the bolt's rearward travel. Hence the gun being snappier.
I honestly don't think the Mk.4 spring is man enough without advanced primer ignition, I think the bolt would hit the end cap.
@@BlokeontheRange What would happen if you put a block inside the open-bolt Sterling so that the bolt travel is limited to the same distance as the closed-bolt Sterling? I suspect you'll experience a noticeable increase in felt recoil. If so, how close would it get to the closed-bolt recoil?
A rigid block would be different, cos on the closed bolt Sterling it's the springs which limit the rearward travel, there's no hard stop. It's slightly annoying that you can't just swap the springs around to look, they're not the same diameter and don't interact with the bolt in the same way.
@@BlokeontheRange If the block matches the full inside diameter so that it also compresses the spring, that may get a comparable result.
The reason I'm suggesting it at all is because I'm very skeptical of Advanced Primer Ignition as it applies to open-bolt submachine guns. I've seen several high-speed videos that show hammers striking firing pins, and in all cases the hammer has time to come to a complete stop and even rebound slightly before the bolt begins to move. Admittedly, the footage was from closed-bolt guns, but if there's not enough time for the bolt to start moving before the hammer comes to a stop in a closed-bolt gun, I don't see how there's enough time for the fixed firing pin to crush the primer, start ignition, and cause pressure to build up in an open-bolt gun before the bolt travels that final fraction of a millimeter and stops against the barrel or trunnion.
I suspect the real difference in felt recoil boils down mainly to the closed-bolt coming to an abrupt stop due to the shorter maximum travel.
I would love to see Advanced Primer Ignition proved or disproved once and for all, whether by a reasonably close comparison between open-bolt and closed-bolt to see whether Advanced Primer Ignition really does anything, or at least high-speed footage at a sufficient framerate to be able to tell the difference between the bolt slamming to a stop against a barrel or trunnion, and rapidly decelerating before being pushed rearward. I wonder if Ian's camera is up to the task?
Rounds from a Sterling in the black at 50? I'm impressed. Mind you I was always crap with these!
It requires a level of skill that nobody issued with one of these in the Army will ever have had enough rounds in practice to develop. Chappie's a good shot but look at the difference!
I had a Mk8 closed bolt here in the UK before the ban, it was so nice to shoot but it did like hot ammo to shoot reliably
Excellent video and great comparison of two guns with the same form factor but completely different firing mechanisms. I don’t think many contemplate the tangible differences in shooting feel between open and closed bolt when inside the same gun body. I’d like to see another comparison between an original design open bolt and a reconfigured closed bolt gun to gage the difference.
I've since worked out how to get the closed bolt bits into the open bolt gun (you need to switch the sear too) so I can compare 1:1.
@@BlokeontheRange : I can’t wait to see that. Do you know of any closed bolt Uzis in Switzerland? That would be another interesting open/closed bolt comparison.
Yup, I know of at least one closed-bolt Uzi.
Very interesting. I bought my wife a machine gun experience fir her 50th. One of the guns was a Sterling. On that day, a significant percentage of the cartridges were going off out of battery (enough so that the cases were exploding and bits were jamming up the works). I can only assume it had something to do with primer hardness because the cartridges were dropping into the chamber correctly when we tried to diagnose the issue. When I say a significant percentage, I mean something over 25%. So I would agree that in the Sterling advanced primer ignition is possible.
There's some hot British contract Hirtenbirger ball that likes to go off out of battery in Sterlings. Runs fine in STEN's though.
Nice vid. Since one use a annular hammer and sear the other does not they are not the same trigger function. I have a wise lite sterling sporter (mk6 clone 16") fun to shoot. annoying to clean.
They're exactly the same trigger mechanism with a narrower sear and an extra tail on the sear cradle to make sure that the sear cradle is fully depressed to guarantee actuation of the tripping lever. There is no annular hammer, it's a spring powered linear striker. What you probably think is an annular hammer isn't a hammer and does not move with respect to the bolt, it's held against it by the mainspring and the force from the mainspring is transmitted to the bolt through it.
I use a Wiselite to burn through garbage ammo. I have no idea how a sterling can be destroyed. But I have tried.
As for those springs I have no idea how they can be so strong and everything still functions fine.
Open bolt has to stop and reverse the momentum of the bolt, closed bolt is a blowback from a no momentum position hence a more snappy cyclic rate ?
Throw it in the bergen and tab away...Loved it. RAMC
I've always loved the E11 blaster. Too bad they are terribly inaccurate.
The accuracy was actually fine, it's just that the standard Imperial Stormtrooper armour interfered with the use of the stock and sights. Have you noticed that they were *always* shot with the stock folded?
@@jic1 😂 in perspective accuracy isn't bad when shooting from the hip?
Carried an SMG in 90/91 on Op Granby.
I loved it,simplicity.
The CETME C2 was a lookalike but mechanically diferent.
Lol what a great intro
Blocking bar in the Wiselite, like the semi only UZI has or a smaller diameter reciever like the semi auto only Thompson?
Blocking bar in the bottom of the receiver. The bolts even start life with the same initial cuts, but then the open bolt and closed bolt ones take different machining paths after a certain point.
stormtroopers love it
Their grouping is bad though, 50 moa.
I've thought that a fix pin open bolt sub gun could have a split bolt with two recoil springs, a short spring to drive part of the bolt the pin home to begin ignition with a
follow-up spring driving the rest of the bolt home to catch the recoil a full intensity.
Not sure I follow what the point of this would be, the entire bolt catches the recoil, it's the whole advanced primer ignition thing...
@@BlokeontheRange What they're talking about sounds like an unnecessarily complicated version of the 'dead blow' weight in a Ruger PC Carbine bolt, which is intended to shorten bolt travel, and reduce bolt bounce and felt recoil.
One of the few SMGs that I would own if I could, can’t afford the price in US.
At 1:05 -- it was the national firearms act of 1934 ["NFA '34"] that brought the concept of SBRs to the US; it was GCA '68 that codified that 16" rifle barrels were the minimum "non-NFA" length [down from the formerly 18 freedom units...]
Has anyone ever tracked down the suspiciously Hk looking fixed stock that Sterling sold as part of their "police carbine" package?
I have to say that for practical purposes the breech block slamming forward on every shot is not detrimental to accuracy.
Once you've mastered it, which is harder to do.
Where did you get that Elbonian patch?
www.varusteleka.com
How do you identify your hits on target? Being an archer I have arrows to show me, lol! 😊
The holes in the target kinda give the game away ;)
It would have been nice to see the fired cases. I would suspect the closed bolt gun to produce dirtier cases than the open bolt gun. Reasoning? The closed bolt has to have greater mass and spring tension to keep the case in the chamber long enough for the bullet to exit the barrel, but still starts to open sooner than the open bolt allowing more gas to leak backwards. The open bolt has momentum working for it and this keeps the chamber sealed a bit longer than the closed bolt. The open bolt is traveling forward has forward energy that will need to be expended before it can start to travel backwards, while the closed bolt has only inertia to be overcome, and no momentum.
An interesting thing to look at indeed!
Hoss semi auto in a Sterling is obscene as hell let alone a closed bolt!!!!! and the revenuers and their entire bloodlines be damned straight to the 9th circle of hell!!!!!
I bet the local gun shop gets out the posh nibbles and shamper's when they see you at the door . How do you tell your missus about another new bang stick ?( Or do you sneak it in when she's out ,like I do 😜)........👍
He tells her with a you tube video.
I don't know how Swiss tax law works, but could guns purchased for the channel be deductible business expenses?
How do you know which bullets holes are made by you in a target peppered with holes?
All the other holes are patched over. The fresh holes that are not patched over are the ones made by us.
I think some of the difference bloke noted about dry firing vs live fire on the open bolt may be due to friction of stripping a round, not entirely sure though. I don’t own any open bolt guns to test sadly.
There's so little friction you can't feel the difference between no cartridge and a dummy cartridge. It's the bolt slapping the back of the barrel rather than being turned by the gas pressure.
@@BlokeontheRange I was totally just making an assumption as I have less than 100 rounds through an open bolt sub gun. A buddy has a registered Mac 11 and a slathering of lager uppers, id love to get some high speed and see how much impact API has. Great content as always
Jesus I used one of these on guard duty. 🇬🇧
What range is this i dont recognise it?
No full auto firing?
Have you ever thought of installing a red dot sight on these Sterlings? I’m sure that you and the Chap should be able to design a decent adapter to use the perfs on the barrel to mount a piece of Picatinny rail so a dot coukd be mounted??? Aesthetics and history ignored it might make an interesting comparison to the modern 9MM carbines.
I managed to get hold of an original rail for the mk 6, so yes 😁
@@BlokeontheRange I can’t wait to see that!
Btw, I’d love a my 6, “Where do you get ‘em.”
There's a few still around in Switzerland... if you live in Switzerland...
Pray Tell Bloke - what's a "good price?"
CHF 1000
Okay...
But...
Which one is going to get the StarWars upgrade and get turned into an E-11?
Does an open bolt have long lock time or long unlock time? 😆
I understand that this video wasn't filmed in Switzerland. May I ask were It was?
Just wondering, why do you understand that the video wasn't filmed in Switzerland?
@@BlokeontheRange probably my English is not good enough... Will keep listening to you until I grab the accent.
Jealous. Some of my friends here in Canada managed to obtain Sterlings (converted auto to semi) before the evil govt made them part of a new class of prohibs (converted autos). I'm in the prohib class that allows me to own FALs and AKs but I wasn't quick enough to snag a converted auto. Regardless, the same evil govt has declared that we can't take our prohib rifles to the range any more. Sigh.
Switzerland looks great for gun ownership. I spent a month there instructing on a UN military crse and quite enjoyed it. Some aspects that gave me pause were the cost of living and the seemingly over-controlled nature of life there. Still, beautiful, nice people who aren't hoplophobes, respect for traditional values etc...
Can you still shoot them on private land, or are they strictly collectors' items only now?
@@jic1 No. Restricted and grandfathered prohibited guns can only be shot on approved ranges. In reaction to a scumbag murdering 4 Mounties with an illegally owned prohib (HK 91) in 2004, the liberal government overreacted (once again) and declared that transport permits would no longer be granted in order to take prohib rifles to the range. That was 20 yrs ago and we're still waiting for that to change. I don't know if that was extended to other categories of grandfathered prohibs (converted autos, short barreled pistols). I suspect they got swept up in it as well.
Stupid move. Made no sense. Legal, licensed gun owners had nothing to do with that crime, but, that's the liberal way.
👍🏿
Just so you know...I supported Freedonia in the Elbonian war of Freedonian oppression.
I still watch your videos.
Interesting comparison. I expected the groups for the closed-bolt Sterling to be tighter. Still, castrated machine guns are like kissing your wife with a mask on...
I have a mate who is licensed to build machine guns, who has a full-auto Sterling and it is a truly pleasant gun to shoot.
I have used it out to a successful 300 mtrs, admittly I was artillery
How high did you have to hold?
The reference to the shower is lost on me. But a closed bolt SMG sounds really, really nice.
It's a UK advertisement . Shampoo , being advertised as being so good you no longer need to take " two bottles " ( shampoo and conditioner ) " into the shower " with this particular brand you just " wash and go "
Tanks(sic) a lot!
A great weapon but very dangerous if mishandled or dropped
*NFA (national firearms act)
I perfer a closed bolt unless it's a full auto and I'm putting down alot of rounds in full auto other wise open bolts are only good for catching flys,leaves,sticks,dirt and what ever else finds it's way in that open hole... just a opinion from a American point of view..
Fascinating how you have such a different sense of operation, between two almost identical examples of the same weapon. Of course, a Sterling without the giggle switch is as satisfying as kissing your sister, unless you're twisted that way! 😉
Gee Bloke, how come your mom lets you have TWO sterlings?
Bloke looks like Brian from Regular Car Reviews
Now that you say that i will never unsee it.
Might be a fun collaboration in that
@@Khar_Toba I haven't watched that channel for a while, but if my memory isn't playing tricks on me I seem to remember that he was also a gun guy, so you might be right.
I hope this video you’ve managed to acquire yourself a scope
I don’t dig open bolt semi, open bolt full…. Another story.
If I'm not mistaken that is a full-auto, it's just pinned at semi to make it easier to take to the range.
During the second world war, they were made for 10 shillings each
They weren't made during the second world war... And the STEN, which was made in the second world war, didn't cost 10 shillings, more in the region of £5-ish, possibly as low as around £3/10/- for the cheapest ones (but nobody actually knows what the real cost was).
Why do they look so rotten in the thumbnail.
crackle finish paint. People don't expect it.
Flexing on the poors/those in hostile jurisdictions.