As a mechanical engineer who did far more sheet metal than I would have preferred, this is familiar. [Shudder.] Everyone thinks sheet metal design is EASIER. Only BAD sheet metal design is easier. And sheet metal tooling design, as you mentioned is mind blowingly subtle sometimes. Nice work.
It is well known that it took the Russians some years to perfect the sheet metal stampings needed for making sheet metal receivers for the AKM that was the sheet metal version of the AK-47. The first general issue AK-47 used receivers milled from solid steel and was heavier and more expensive to make.
The first general issue AK-47 used a stamped receiver that's nothing like the later AKM, but the Russians were crap at it so went to milled for a while.
Once visited the Sterling factory in Dagenham, and they made every component in the factory. The most interesting was a locked caged that contained gold plated sterling SMGs !
Saw them in a printed magazine in the 80´s ..Yes, they were a arab gulf state contract. Not as elegant as authentic damascene: ua-cam.com/video/4KM7ySNWuqU/v-deo.html
Ah but isn't this the ultimate result in the quest for reliability and durability? Bren mags were of a similar sturdy nature and came in hefty transit cases. It's definitely a lesson from WW2. Which begs the question as to why RG 5.56 mags were so flimsy.
@@zoidersEverything is always a balance of quality and cost. Not sure if this is relevant to the UK, but there is also always the idea of disposable magazines popping up, so magazines are made cheap and not very durable. Then someone decides it is too expensive and they have to reuse those cheap and not very durable magazines.
The licensed Indian made SAF MC 1A & SMGC 1A1 follows the more elaborate construction of the commercial Sterlings...including the magazine. Build quality was surprisingly good till about the late 90s, after which it mostly went to rat-poo.
Lithgow Small Arms Factory in Australia produced Sterling Submachine Gun Magazines for the F1 Submachine Gun, the agreement between Sterling Armaments and the Australian Government was informal, basically, Australia could produce them for free, so long as they did not sell them to other nations. Australia produced the magazines and F1 Submachine Guns until 1973, and were phased out in the 1990's. Apparently a few L2A3's and L34a1's were also in inventory in the ADF and were phased out in the 1990's as well!
Yes the L34A1 was issued to both the Commandos (Reserve) and SASR though till the 90s when it was replaced by the MP5SD3. A number of them L34s were stolen from the Williamtsown 2 Cdo base armoury in the 80s and later showed up with some organised crime types.
Very clever solutions to early problems. Some lessons need to be learned more than once. Early MP5s had straight mags before adopting curved ones in later production models. And for the same reason of enhanced reliability.
Thanks for another great video. The Sterling is the only SMG I have shot so my experience is limited but it was excellent on both semi and full auto: reliable, ergonomic, easy to keep on target and accurate enough to get me my OTC marksman's qualification.
The Canadian C1 SMG "Sterling" magazines were simplified ever further compared to the "army" pattern magazine you showed. The C1 magazine had a stamped steel follower that omitted the rollers for a more conventional follower design. While probably not as good as the original sterling mag they seemed good enough as I don't recall them being a source of issues during my brief stint as a reservist in the late 1980's.
I imagine that latter designs in other weapons just reduced the surface of the follower that make contact with the interior of the magazine, to achieve similar effect without resourcing to rollers.
Funny how they bothered with magazine development for a weapon that can only hit secondary characters and never the actual dangerous ones attacking your ship, outpost or space station.
I was on the range during my army service (RMP) in BAOR when the rollers on one of the lads mags jammed as he canted the SMG to the right the rounds all rolled out of the ejection port. If it can happen it will, no matter how daft it might seem.
That's what happens when you load/unload mags twice a day 365 days of the year for guard duty. It buggers them and then they end up back in circulation.
A decade or so after I last fired the SMG, unimpressed by its accuracy (well, compared to an SLR/SA 80) but never having had any concerns about the magazines, I worked for the patent attorney firm, Heron & Rogers, that did Sterling's patents. Today I am working for another IP firm, and have a signed photograph from Frank Whittle in my office!
For a moment I thought you had lost it! Until I was able to zoom in, I was sure that code at the bottom of the military mag said, 'CHINA'. Thanks for illustrating how complicated a bit of sheet metal with a spring can be. I tend to think that the simple change to double feed was in itself a huge help to reliability, though that was probably a bit complicated to work out. The coil spring was a bit surprising; I had never seen that in a magazine before.
Sadly, I have no slat for Sterling magazine--they, even the knock-offs, are just too much the cat's meow. But, it's definitely cool to see inside the business part of things. And, a rather clear and precise Patent being rather a hen's tooth, too.
Great video as always and very helpful to see the depth of design features and the origins in the patents. One has to wonder how Sterling would have got on if they hadn't been stitched so many times by HMG. I nearly spat my sausage out at 15.38 ua-cam.com/video/uYMlOV_sCjM/v-deo.html when the stamped marking CRIIIA appeared to read "CHINA"!
12:04 the punches and dies have to be made for cutting these. Before the time of EDM machines that was done by hand and was a very precise job. I have watched a lot of these videos at the time I had finished my research on reamers and was talking to Ivan the Troll on EDM and maybe the possibilities on making a barrel. I was not convinced it could be done as small, but he managed produce a mandrel to hold the electrodes to electrically erode rifling instead of swaging it with rifling buttons. Very interesting to see double stack magazines in SMGs, but they are even more rare in pistols. For pistols the Russian MP443 has it, and maybe some others but these are very rare. I am very excited about the design perspective it brings when you look at 3D printing and the possibilities of casting receivers in metals or even steel with vacuum casting. Sheet metal can be formed with punches and dies. EDM machines are the way to go to make punches and dies. You need a large tonnage hydraulic press to get good quick results. No idea on how much tonnage you would need, but the larger the place where the force needs to be applied the more tonnage you need. Maybe you can get around this with having a punch that cuts on small portions at one time i.e. a slanted cutting surface. Also the follower in the magazine could be one casted part. With fluid 3D printing you can have high enough definition to make parts out of jewelers casting resin to do vacuum casting with. :) I like the rollers in the Sterling magazine. Very cool! Greetings, Jeff
Thanks for making a video on the Sterling magazine! I keep making incorrect assumptions in some of my comments on your previous videos so I'll just leave it at that.
So cleaning a STEN's magazines is definitely part of the program, esp. In sandy/dusty evviroments....not as critical for the Sterling. Still best practices.
17 mins of nerdy storytelling about the magasine of an obsolete gun Ill never see irl ? Yes please ! (Gun tism is real, thank you for showing all the documentation and drawings, looks like it took a lot of research to make that vid)
I really enjoy the nerdy stuff on this channel. The only thing I didn't click to was putting the spring into a "box" of 4 guide ribs. Doesn't its diameter increase when it compresses? Can't it cause the coils to rotate and stand diagonally to accomodate this increase? Or it's not that tight? Also, British patent database is a pain.
Now, I must clarify my words. Compression spring outer diameter increase is a thing, indeed, but the Sterling mag inner rail box tolerances should accomodate that amount. What could be interesting is if this box of rails allowed the normal pitch decrease while blocking longitudinal waves in the spring (say, when mag is dropped). Yes, I still can't find the patent and just play with imagination here.
And the soundtrack to this vid is the clog dance from la fille mal gardee ....you know the one rat a tat tat ...pause for removing the jam rat a tat tat etc ad infinitum 👍
You mean which members of the Tory party had shares in Royal Ordnance? To the stage where industrial espionage was carried out by the security services on behalf of same said individuals?
Wow - any sources on that Zoiders? I didn't go down the FOI or interviewing routes for my book as I had to draw the line somewhere (the SA80 chunks grew like topsy as it was), but I'd love to hear more.@@zoiders
@@jonathanferguson1211Well someone gave RO the AR18 drawings from the Sterling office didn't they? This predates the Internet so someone would have to get into a locked cabinet in order to "borrow" them. It's a bit fishy. It's also something they have been known to do.
@@jonathanferguson1211 Sterling were rather convinced they had been nobbled and said as much when the first Enfield examples showed up on the RO stand at international arms fairs in the UK. So much so they put a bullpup together to prove their point.
Just wondering how long will it take to get a firearms license in Switzerland because I’ve talked to Swiss people and some say I have to live there for 10 years before I can even get one some say longer some say I can get one straight away I’m just not sure if they’re saying that so I don’t move there
If you have the right to own firearms in your home country, you can get acquisition permits straight away. Or you can apply for an exemption under certain circumstances. Otherwise it's when you get your residence permit "C", which could be 5 or 10 years depending.
Perhaps I missed it, but is anyone else making such magazines for other full auto guns. I did not note the patent date, but I assume the patent is now expired.
@@BlokeontheRange i wonder if the spiral spring concept could be applied to rifle mags, but in tandem. that is two of them, due to length of the cartridges. But, then bottlenecked rifle rounds are much easier to feed through a mag than is the case with a 9x19 round. So maybe no good reason for a roller and round springs held in by side projecting magazine guides for say 5.56.
Probably, a very naive question, but still. Why don't we see these tricks on every mag elsewhere? They seem very rational, and they ended up working -- so, why not? In, say, bolt design, the tendency to pick the best solutions has driven us to rotating bolts, with lugs in the front part, on 99% assault rifles and machine guns. Why don't mags converge to some "best practice"?
We see ribs very often now, but I think that with modern tolerances we don't need the rollers. Btw the black dog .22 AR mags use the guided coil spring system.
@ 15:38. "CHINA"?? Nope! CR111A Pert or drawing number. Then, there is the story of the Lithgow "knock-off" for the Oz SMG F1. Every so often, a UK Sterling mag would find its way into the Oz system. If it fitted and worked,nobody but the "eagle-eyed" armourers and the hard-core "enthusiasts" would notice or care. Oz has long regularly trained with Sterling-equipped forces, like NZ, Singapore, etc. In times of yore, L1A1 mags and parts thereof seemed to "float about" somewhat.
As a mechanical engineer who did far more sheet metal than I would have preferred, this is familiar. [Shudder.] Everyone thinks sheet metal design is EASIER. Only BAD sheet metal design is easier. And sheet metal tooling design, as you mentioned is mind blowingly subtle sometimes. Nice work.
It is well known that it took the Russians some years to perfect the sheet metal stampings needed for making sheet metal receivers for the AKM that was the sheet metal version of the AK-47. The first general issue AK-47 used receivers milled from solid steel and was heavier and more expensive to make.
The first general issue AK-47 used a stamped receiver that's nothing like the later AKM, but the Russians were crap at it so went to milled for a while.
Once visited the Sterling factory in Dagenham, and they made every component in the factory.
The most interesting was a locked caged that contained gold plated sterling SMGs !
That would very likely be for Quatar or one of the other Emirates. Valmet sold them gold plated rifles as well.
@@zoiders The ValMet rifles sold to Qatar were chromed, but otherwise you're likely correct.
@@Tunkkis One Prince sees chrome rifles then he wants gold ones for his own body guard. The pimping never ends.
Saw them in a printed magazine in the 80´s ..Yes, they were a arab gulf state contract. Not as elegant as authentic damascene: ua-cam.com/video/4KM7ySNWuqU/v-deo.html
Always good to know that provision is made for cack, whether it be sand-grooves or cack-rollers. Cheers 😊
Really fantastic bit of design. It almost goes OTT in the quest to make the magazine reliable, sturdy and long lived
Ah but isn't this the ultimate result in the quest for reliability and durability? Bren mags were of a similar sturdy nature and came in hefty transit cases. It's definitely a lesson from WW2. Which begs the question as to why RG 5.56 mags were so flimsy.
@@zoidersEverything is always a balance of quality and cost.
Not sure if this is relevant to the UK, but there is also always the idea of disposable magazines popping up, so magazines are made cheap and not very durable. Then someone decides it is too expensive and they have to reuse those cheap and not very durable magazines.
@@88porpoise Holy mansplaining batman!
"I will have to go through my Stengun magazine collection". Definitely well past entry level gun nerd.
The licensed Indian made SAF MC 1A & SMGC 1A1 follows the more elaborate construction of the commercial Sterlings...including the magazine. Build quality was surprisingly good till about the late 90s, after which it mostly went to rat-poo.
Great video Mike. Something I've always meant to strip and look at and never have.
Lithgow Small Arms Factory in Australia produced Sterling Submachine Gun Magazines for the F1 Submachine Gun, the agreement between Sterling Armaments and the Australian Government was informal, basically, Australia could produce them for free, so long as they did not sell them to other nations. Australia produced the magazines and F1 Submachine Guns until 1973, and were phased out in the 1990's. Apparently a few L2A3's and L34a1's were also in inventory in the ADF and were phased out in the 1990's as well!
Yes the L34A1 was issued to both the Commandos (Reserve) and SASR though till the 90s when it was replaced by the MP5SD3. A number of them L34s were stolen from the Williamtsown 2 Cdo base armoury in the 80s and later showed up with some organised crime types.
Thank you for the review of the Sterling mags and all that goes into their manufacture. The Sterling is iconic.
Very clever solutions to early problems. Some lessons need to be learned more than once. Early MP5s had straight mags before adopting curved ones in later production models. And for the same reason of enhanced reliability.
Thanks for another great video. The Sterling is the only SMG I have shot so my experience is limited but it was excellent on both semi and full auto: reliable, ergonomic, easy to keep on target and accurate enough to get me my OTC marksman's qualification.
I wonder if ze Gerrmans took a sneaky look at the Sterling mags when the MP5 stick mags were found to be sub optimal? 17:37
The Canadian C1 SMG "Sterling" magazines were simplified ever further compared to the "army" pattern magazine you showed. The C1 magazine had a stamped steel follower that omitted the rollers for a more conventional follower design. While probably not as good as the original sterling mag they seemed good enough as I don't recall them being a source of issues during my brief stint as a reservist in the late 1980's.
I'm still holding out hope that Bloke, Chap, Othias, May(mae?), Ian, and Rob can get together to do a video someday.
Probably get a video about who makes the softest toilet paper that lasts for 2hours ....but fascinating nevertheless 👍😁
I believe May-Mae is pronounced "meem"... ;-)
Channel awesome of guns
I imagine that latter designs in other weapons just reduced the surface of the follower that make contact with the interior of the magazine, to achieve similar effect without resourcing to rollers.
The cartridges in the magazine themselves rolling could do far more to reduce friction than the follower rolling on the case.
Funny how they bothered with magazine development for a weapon that can only hit secondary characters and never the actual dangerous ones attacking your ship, outpost or space station.
I was on the range during my army service (RMP) in BAOR when the rollers on one of the lads mags jammed as he canted the SMG to the right the rounds all rolled out of the ejection port. If it can happen it will, no matter how daft it might seem.
That's what happens when you load/unload mags twice a day 365 days of the year for guard duty. It buggers them and then they end up back in circulation.
Excellent video as always, explains why my SMG was so reliable 😊
Thanks Bloke, that nerdiness was most enjoyable.
I appreciate the nerdery. I'd probably even like some nerdery on the crackle paint finish that some guns have.
It was a baked on paint made by Trimite Ltd.
It reminds me of the paint on the dashboard of later MGBs.
A decade or so after I last fired the SMG, unimpressed by its accuracy (well, compared to an SLR/SA 80) but never having had any concerns about the magazines, I worked for the patent attorney firm, Heron & Rogers, that did Sterling's patents. Today I am working for another IP firm, and have a signed photograph from Frank Whittle in my office!
For a moment I thought you had lost it! Until I was able to zoom in, I was sure that code at the bottom of the military mag said, 'CHINA'.
Thanks for illustrating how complicated a bit of sheet metal with a spring can be. I tend to think that the simple change to double feed was in itself a huge help to reliability, though that was probably a bit complicated to work out. The coil spring was a bit surprising; I had never seen that in a magazine before.
Black Dog use one in their AR-22 mags - one of the things I spotted *after* making the video, lol! Maybe fodder for a quick short?
@@BlokeontheRange Blimey! You're right! I checked one of my Black Dog mags, and there it is! 😄
Thanks for the deep dive.
Nerdery 101 - love it.
Nearly everyone forgets how crucial magazine design is to a firearm.
Sterling mag video? *slides over tissue box*
Just watched the vid. I never noticed the guide rails before. They're better than I thought they were.
Sadly, I have no slat for Sterling magazine--they, even the knock-offs, are just too much the cat's meow. But, it's definitely cool to see inside the business part of things. And, a rather clear and precise Patent being rather a hen's tooth, too.
Disassembled STEN mag is giving me Glock vibes.
Thank you! What a lovely magazine. Viele Grüße
"We can't make it right, how do we fix it"
"Buy from us."
Do you know how they modified those to hold the blaster gas for the BlasTech contract?
Great video as always and very helpful to see the depth of design features and the origins in the patents. One has to wonder how Sterling would have got on if they hadn't been stitched so many times by HMG. I nearly spat my sausage out at 15.38 ua-cam.com/video/uYMlOV_sCjM/v-deo.html when the stamped marking CRIIIA appeared to read "CHINA"!
That was very interesting, thank you for the video. Maybe I'll do one myself in relation to this. I also own a Sterling magazine.
12:04 the punches and dies have to be made for cutting these. Before the time of EDM machines that was done by hand and was a very precise job. I have watched a lot of these videos at the time I had finished my research on reamers and was talking to Ivan the Troll on EDM and maybe the possibilities on making a barrel. I was not convinced it could be done as small, but he managed produce a mandrel to hold the electrodes to electrically erode rifling instead of swaging it with rifling buttons.
Very interesting to see double stack magazines in SMGs, but they are even more rare in pistols. For pistols the Russian MP443 has it, and maybe some others but these are very rare. I am very excited about the design perspective it brings when you look at 3D printing and the possibilities of casting receivers in metals or even steel with vacuum casting. Sheet metal can be formed with punches and dies. EDM machines are the way to go to make punches and dies. You need a large tonnage hydraulic press to get good quick results. No idea on how much tonnage you would need, but the larger the place where the force needs to be applied the more tonnage you need. Maybe you can get around this with having a punch that cuts on small portions at one time i.e. a slanted cutting surface.
Also the follower in the magazine could be one casted part. With fluid 3D printing you can have high enough definition to make parts out of jewelers casting resin to do vacuum casting with. :)
I like the rollers in the Sterling magazine.
Very cool!
Greetings,
Jeff
As far as i remember, from stripping and refinishing them, the Sterling was all induction brazed not welded ?
I recently repainted a Sterling and yes it was indeed brazed.
Thanks for making a video on the Sterling magazine! I keep making incorrect assumptions in some of my comments on your previous videos so I'll just leave it at that.
Great Info , Great Video 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Love side loading magazines , don't know why just do .
They are so pretty!
10/10 for using the word "cack" 👌🏻
I the m45 magnis very similar and they are very reliable and they are double stack for 36 rounds
Nice gun sir
Neat design, for sure. What Sten mag loading tool do you use/suggest?
The clip-on lever-type one. I think it's Mk.4.
Not the box one with the brass ring
@@BlokeontheRange Thanks!
So cleaning a STEN's magazines is definitely part of the program, esp. In sandy/dusty evviroments....not as critical for the Sterling. Still best practices.
MP 28 magazine.
"Vorsprung Durch Technik"; in 1920, not in 1940.
17 mins of nerdy storytelling about the magasine of an obsolete gun Ill never see irl ? Yes please ! (Gun tism is real, thank you for showing all the documentation and drawings, looks like it took a lot of research to make that vid)
Such a good magazine.. .
I would say NaCl - salty enough for you?
You forgot about the feed ramp being integrated into the magazine and not the firearm.
Bloke have you ever had the chance to play with the Owen gun?
Nope, sorry.
So long as Brits engineer something that's not a car electrical system in the rain, they can out do the Germans. Fantastic magazine to be sure.
I really enjoy the nerdy stuff on this channel. The only thing I didn't click to was putting the spring into a "box" of 4 guide ribs. Doesn't its diameter increase when it compresses? Can't it cause the coils to rotate and stand diagonally to accomodate this increase? Or it's not that tight?
Also, British patent database is a pain.
It doesn't expand laterally , it just shortens.
@@BlokeontheRange okay, I'll have to trust you, because it's completely unobvious to me. But I'm no engineer, so.
Now, I must clarify my words. Compression spring outer diameter increase is a thing, indeed, but the Sterling mag inner rail box tolerances should accomodate that amount. What could be interesting is if this box of rails allowed the normal pitch decrease while blocking longitudinal waves in the spring (say, when mag is dropped). Yes, I still can't find the patent and just play with imagination here.
Jam rate for mp18 snail drums
And the soundtrack to this vid is the clog dance from la fille mal gardee ....you know the one rat a tat tat ...pause for removing the jam rat a tat tat etc ad infinitum 👍
I look forward to a submachine gun family tree video.
Just what was it that the government had up its third point of contact that caused it to work so hard to destroy Sterling?
You mean which members of the Tory party had shares in Royal Ordnance? To the stage where industrial espionage was carried out by the security services on behalf of same said individuals?
Wow - any sources on that Zoiders? I didn't go down the FOI or interviewing routes for my book as I had to draw the line somewhere (the SA80 chunks grew like topsy as it was), but I'd love to hear more.@@zoiders
@@jonathanferguson1211Well someone gave RO the AR18 drawings from the Sterling office didn't they? This predates the Internet so someone would have to get into a locked cabinet in order to "borrow" them. It's a bit fishy. It's also something they have been known to do.
Did they? I haven't seen any evidence of that. @@zoiders
@@jonathanferguson1211 Sterling were rather convinced they had been nobbled and said as much when the first Enfield examples showed up on the RO stand at international arms fairs in the UK. So much so they put a bullpup together to prove their point.
my husband brought a parts kit for the sterling
Sodium Chloride
Just wondering if there is any noticeable difference between the sterling and the knock off issue tissue when it comes to feeding?
Not heard of any.
Just wondering how long will it take to get a firearms license in Switzerland because I’ve talked to Swiss people and some say I have to live there for 10 years before I can even get one some say longer some say I can get one straight away I’m just not sure if they’re saying that so I don’t move there
If you have the right to own firearms in your home country, you can get acquisition permits straight away. Or you can apply for an exemption under certain circumstances. Otherwise it's when you get your residence permit "C", which could be 5 or 10 years depending.
Any experiences with WW2 experimental suppression systems?
Nope, sorry.
❤❤❤❤❤
Here is a throughly iodized salty comment
The nerdy stuff is just fine ... I can't however, donate.
Perhaps I missed it, but is anyone else making such magazines for other full auto guns. I did not note the patent date, but I assume the patent is now expired.
Very, very expired. I don't think anyone's using rollers, but Black Dog uses the guided helical spring for their .22 mags.
@@BlokeontheRange
i wonder if the spiral spring concept could be applied to rifle mags, but in tandem. that is two of them, due to length of the cartridges. But, then bottlenecked rifle rounds are much easier to feed through a mag than is the case with a 9x19 round. So maybe no good reason for a roller and round springs held in by side projecting magazine guides for say 5.56.
Probably, a very naive question, but still. Why don't we see these tricks on every mag elsewhere? They seem very rational, and they ended up working -- so, why not? In, say, bolt design, the tendency to pick the best solutions has driven us to rotating bolts, with lugs in the front part, on 99% assault rifles and machine guns. Why don't mags converge to some "best practice"?
We see ribs very often now, but I think that with modern tolerances we don't need the rollers. Btw the black dog .22 AR mags use the guided coil spring system.
@@BlokeontheRange Thanks!
As requested, une commentaire salé.
Better une commentaire salé than une commentaire sale XD
Undertale music?
words
*salty comment*
@ 15:38.
"CHINA"??
Nope! CR111A Pert or drawing number.
Then, there is the story of the Lithgow "knock-off" for the Oz SMG F1. Every so often, a UK Sterling mag would find its way into the Oz system. If it fitted and worked,nobody but the "eagle-eyed" armourers and the hard-core "enthusiasts" would notice or care. Oz has long regularly trained with Sterling-equipped forces, like NZ, Singapore, etc. In times of yore, L1A1 mags and parts thereof seemed to "float about" somewhat.
This is a salty comment.
Sterling. The choice of the modern women's royal air force 😅😅😅😅