guys let me know if you'd like more collabs like this! and thanks TGS for hanging out on stream PS: everything is so account and playstyle dependent that it's impossible to really make a good tier list. I personally won't make one, but this discussion was still fun.
@@jamiekb9v Good collab and thanks for clearing the Ayaka thing. Can you watch my last video and see how good performs a 100% F2P Ayaka in recent abyss? [can’t post the link] Tysm!
Honestly I feel like you were focusing more on which DPS was easiest to 36 star the abyss, while TGS was focusing on which DPS could deal the most dmg with f2p gear consistently and that's the reason behind the majority of disagreements you guys had. I also agree that Hu Tao is better DPS than Raiden, but wouldn't recommend pulling her over archon
love this content, you are two of my favorite genshin ccs because of your positive and honest attitudes. I can always tell how much you guys love Genshin
Nilou doesn't have as great as reputation as neuvillette because she's niche, but just in terms of resin investment to damage output, she's there at the top imo. She wants all the hp% artifacts, doesn't even need talent levels, you just need level 90 and a playable weapon and she already deals a lot of aoe damage. That's what f2p players would want imo
considering how her kit works, nilou is the easiest unit to be disabled by the enemy lineup. neuvillette only weakness is hydro immunity otherwise he works regardless of the content
I think you misunderstood his criteria which made this discussion feel kinda like you were talking about completely different things. He didnt make his video considering a new player trying to get 36 stars with scuffed artifacts. Rather, he limited vertical investment and access to niche buffers. Nothing was stopping any of the characters on this list from having a min maxed late game artifact set and talents.
Why wouldnt f2ps have access to niche buffers if they arent new players though? F2P means nothing with how many primos the game hands you. Most F2P players have clear favourite characters and build their accounts around them, that means pulling shenhe for ayaka etc. F2P is a useless qualifier due to how different people play this game while not spending money. Someone logging in 2x a week since launch is in this category, same as someone playing everyday and getting every primo or someone who just pulls 1x per year and gets a high con unit. Zajef is F2P for all intents and purposes. You just simply wont find a consistent average for F2P to build a definition around. Account Age is a much more meaningful factor that can be used to advise players.
@@luminous3558 F2Ps have access to niche buffers. They all pretty much need C6 for the main DPS to be competitive though, which is where things become not relatable. These niche buffers are only rerunning with their respective main DPS, meaning you're always risking getting a constellation of the main DPS by pulling, which is far from being the best thing to do from a F2P perspective. That's why they're penalized. I'm a 1.1 player and I have C3 Sara (some of them I got on the standard banner by getting insanely lucky) and C4 Gorou (one was given for free). Not that long ago I didn't even have C2 of them. Meaning you either need to luck out and have a rerunning banner of a 5 star character you actually want, or need to risk getting a constellation of the main DPS. Add onto that fact that these C6s often make night&day difference (compared to, say Xingqiu C6, while being very good isn't gamebreaker and doesn't suddenly make a DPS viable) and now you know why niche buffers are penalized.
The same argument with clorinde or any other reaction carry. One becomes better with furina or with yelan. The only one that is free from this "becomes better with X" is the dragon daddy.
@@andersongomes3211 arle has higher solo damage than neuv but most people arent good enough at the game to play her like that. It's actually nuts how strong arle is even without Bennett, but with bennett she just becomes the highest dps unit in the game.
@@james-bx4wr Exactly. But we have to use some criteria for ranking. Personal dmg? Contruibution for the overall team dmg? I would put arle and dragon daddy up there for personal dmg.
That's like saying Bennet is the sub dps of the National team lol. He gives a huge attack buff and pyro particles,and he would be the last member to replace,but that doesn't mean Xiangling isn't the subdps and Bennet the support
54:34 yeah, nilou is the DPS, no question. Cuz what's doing the damage? the bloom. It simply doesn't exist without her and even if we ignore that, her passive is giving alot of damage to the bloom, so that's a factor It's like how other characters just need to apply the element for nilou to do damage, like candace just needs to apply hydro for arlachino to do more damage
Your favorite unit will most likely be ranked lower than you'd want them to be, because since they are your favorite unit, you are more likely to do some slight vertical investment. Whether thats something like going for crowns when you'd usually leave talents at 8/9, spending the extra couple of weeks in the mines for "better-than-kqm-standard" artifact pieces, investing in potentially bis but niche supports (that fall out of the scope of this vid btw), fishing for 4* weapons or refinements, throwing away precious copies of a weapon to refine for that small boost, fishing for 4* constellations, etc etc etc.
@@jamiekb9v I know. I'm speaking to the X mains in your comment sections who are pissed that you don't think their favorite unit is SSS omega OP tier for f2p, dolphins, whales, babies, and sweat lord gamers.
True, I completely agree with that. People always tend to overestimate their favourite characters. What I don't agree with is ccs gaslighting certain chrs because they don't like them or worse cuz certain tc said so ealry on in the game.. I think this is very bad for newer players, who they seem to care about soo much.. I hate when people trying to push their own bias towards certain units when instead of objectively ranking them. When u argue with every single chr placement, it's clearly just for the sake of making a video. Arguments made for argument's sake are BAD! U can say certain dps is trash because they're hard to play but u can't say certain dps is trash because they don't have enough dps when u can see form the very video they're watching that they clearly do. You can tell even tgs was annoyed several times during this discussion, because jamie seem to completely ignore the premise of this discussion.The video is titled top 10 best 5*dps f2p and not how day 1 players can 36 star. It's clear form the video that tgs assumes presence of staple 5 star supports and moderate investment into all chrs.Also saying some chr is bad because they see one all 5 star team is what makes me think they're biased Every top dps in this list has atleast one all 5 star team which in most cases is their best team. I also think certain people don't know what they're talking about, especially those who think "certain X mains are angry and think their main is SSS", when all said people are doing is pointing out that said chr is not as bad as people make them out to be
I think I agree with you mostly (especially on Raiden, Hutao), the only point I'd disagree with is on Nahida. I think calling her a dps stretches the definition too much but I can see your point. Also I'd be really interested if you did a top speedrun DPS list that accounted for worthwhile 5* weapons and early constellations. There don't seem to be any lists of this kind on youtube and you'd be one of the best to do it.
thanks! although I've never been interested in making tier lists personally. especially something like speedrunning, where fundamentally players just pick their favourite DPS and learn how to optimise them as much as possible. most players only care about how fast they are compared to someone with the same character, and if not they learn.
51:26 That's so true, and that's why I don't get why people say she's restrictive. She legit works with more units than most other main DPSes; sure you can only use dendro and hydro but you honestly can use ANY dendro and hydro that's a lot 😭 she hard carries skill issue, build issue, roster issue, she truly is free half of the abbyss 💛
Very interesting... I'm honestly a little disappointed in Navia myself with R2 WGS and no cons obviously. She wrecked the 4.3 abyss that was made for her (similar clear times to my C1 R1 Tao) but ever since then I couldn't justify using her over my other units. I do think there is perhaps some inconsistency in investment but I would prefer still to play plunge tao (which doesn't care about C1) over Navia any day of the week.
@@aerohydra3849 I also use her with WGS and she's by far my favourite DPS , the only DPS i would pick over her is Neuvellite But to be fair you kinda needs zhongli or chiori with her , if you don't , then the only super meta team she is navia Bennett xianling furina
@@kingdoom5022 GMC the true meta choice! But technicly you can really put any random geo unit as the fourth unit and she will work, like, even C6 Gorou is not an entirly terrible option just for the crit damage buff.
This was so frustrating to watch. Bro ignored what tgs said until he repeated a bunch. For example, "This list isn't for new players, I'm gonna assume you have the staple supports" and then you follow up with "if there is no furina" (wrio) or "if you don't have kazuha" (Chlorinde) Or "i could put a 4 star here" when it's titled "top 10 5 star dps." Or when he literally said "xianyun is niche so I'm not putting much value on it for this list" and then you start talking about how it's an all 5 star team... like bro pay attention You were also aggressive, like you weren't trying to have a discussion, you were just arguing for the sake of arguing. Like saying "this is a controversial take" for every character on the list. He even called you out on it. Also, your viewer abyss runs aren't that useful of a metric. Most of the time they're either newer players who don't have that many characters, or they have bad builds. Which isn't the criteria for his list
Newer players looking for recommendations are the exact type of people who would watch a video titled "Top 10 Best 5* DPS For F2P 2024". TGS may not have intended for the parameters to be about pull value, but that will be the focus takeaway for a signficant amount of people watching. They will watch tier lists and think "ok should I pull this guy?". Hence discussing and scrutinizing the list from that angle is completely valid and a good idea. Btw TGS enjoyed this discussion a lot.
@@jamiekb9v I don't disagree with the idea of a different take but it didn't seem like you acknowledged that your "different take" was contrary to the rules TGS outlined in his original video. It was like you were trying to find fault in his ranking because you were coming at it from a perspective of low investment accounts looking for their first 36 stars. It would be one thing if you said "yeah character "A" being well invested makes sense here but if they aren't well invested they might drop more relative to Character "B" not being well invested. But you just went from your "different take" and actually constantly asked "Do you really think this character should be this high" as if you couldn't believe it and you were using low investment accounts with bad artifacts as your example. Again, I agree with coming at them from different angles but it honestly sounded like you believed your "different take" was the right take, rather than just another potential view. You constantly would find fault in his rankings saying you disagreed and used your own rules (ignoring TGS's original rules) and kept going back to your first 36 star runs. It's really just a matter of doing a better job of acknowledging the original ranking/perspective while then talking about how the ranking could change if you used a different perspective (rule set). I don't think you meant anything mean by it though.
I have HuTao C0 on Dragon. She is just not good enough. I will pick Wryo/Furina/XL over her every day. Many Hutao players have overinvested in artifacts and have Homa. Definitely I rank Raiden higher. Regarding Wryo his Furina/XL team is very strong but outside of that he feels mid. Arli as f2p is ok cos you can use it on gladiator. I have her on her signature and in that case she is right there with Neuvi.
@@ixirion I don't have energy issue/don't have to keep my ult for the next room, I don't like circle impact, and Raiden hb is just kuki with no healing and a bit more electro (I also don't have nahida on this account 'x') and Wryo doesn't feel good to play for me, the combo are weird, the energy for xiangling tend to be a bit hard to get, the damage is not good enough and again, I don't like circle impact, well it's too bad with him to be fair
@@Ohenheim In wryo team Furina is on fav and in my case C0 on R5 Widsith he does 120+ k melts and the team dps is rly high. Regarding Raiden she has the advantage that for example in XL teams you can go EM sands and still get her burst in cooldown. Thats a huge dps gain. Again in Raiden case you a circle impact only during first slash. I however my have skewed perception of Raiden cos mine is on Engulfing and high investment artifacts. also the benefit of raiden is her versatilty In any sort of AOE content Raiden/Venti/Furina is crush. you need to deal with pyro - Raiden double hydro, you are against cryo/hydro - rational boss requires quicken - Raiden/Fichl etc you may have preference but if we are talking rating at mid investment Raiden is the better pick than HuTao. At high investment it becomes situational. The existence of Arlechino /Liney/XL/ Diluc plunge makes HuTao just an option to select.
Saying Nahida is dps of that team is like saying Bennet is the sub-dps of the national team. I mean sure Bennet gives a huge buff and pyro particles,and he would be the last person to replace in that team, but that doesn't mean Xiangling isn't the sub dps dealing most of the damage and the Bennet the support Its also good to note his spread team is close to quickbloom in usage,where he is the dps the team is built around What alof of ppl are looking for in pulling a dps is to pull up a side that is struggling to clear, to clear, so it makes sense to put him there, alot of people may not be able to clear with DH hyperbloom,and Alhaitham can be what makes the difference between clearing and not clearing.
if that's what they are looking for then nahida is that difference maker. in fact yesterday we even helped more people get 36 star on stream with this concept. try comparing a full 4 star hyperbloom team vs adding in nahida, the difference is enormous. plus her being able to slot in 2 hydro teammates is also massive for 12-1-2 pyro shieldbreaking. again, no one is saying alhaitham is weak (I even say in this video he could be in this top 10 list), the point is nahida's that impactful, she could be 2nd.
@@jamiekb9v maybe you didn't read the last para.If they are struggling with Nahida+2H or Nahida+2E then Alhaitham might be what makes the difference.Im assuming they already have her
@sauravthegreat that's a specific scenario. Also just because his agg teams (where he is majority but less than 50% usually) are used more doesn't change the fact that its dps is wayyy lower than hyperbloom.
It’s so interestig seeing how a units theoretical value differs from their practical value for me. And when I say that I do mean me specifically, I don’t mean to generalize for others experiences. I’ve always found raiden underwhelming except in hyperbloom (yeah), ayaka was my first premium dps and she’s been benched for so long, and I actually have an easier time 36* with a dehya mono Pyro team than an international team with childe as the driver instead. And that’s fully skill issue, but it’s also the reality of how the game is for me. Units are silly sometimes 😂
I think it is up to the player if it wants to masterize some characters or not, Childe international requires a lot of skill to double swirl, and keep the rotation correctly. Sometimes we just have to beat abyss with what we are truly comfortable.
@@Solairexz i think you’re right. perhaps there’s a timeline out there where I could play international, but I play on mobile + have ADHD which makes memorizing rotations difficult and even harder to break them correctly for greater dps so for me it’s truly the past of least resistance to use other characters and why I didn’t spend a lot of time getting better at it
Really loved seeing you guys together in 1 video. I do wish you let tgs build a list based on your standard rather than trash his list based on standard he didnt use. It felt like a bit of a disservice to him, when he would have had a completely different list if using the same standards as you. For example, he had to explain several times throughout your discussions that his list was based more on the dps ceiling for f2p rather than the floor (as you do with viewer abyss runs). I hope you guys collaborate again though
no trashing, we get along well. we were literally joking (it didn't make this videos edit) that this was just a fun short stream to do before the euros final started. it was all a bit of fun with the stream chat. apologies if british humor doesn't always translate over the internet.
26:46 that point. Yae actually feels great on chevrouse teams and because fischl doesn't get A4 procs in chev teams, she's not supercharged so that brings yae higher in chevrouse teams
Arlecchino/Fischl/Beidou/Chev team will activate Fischl's A4 quite reliably, Beidou and Arlecchino are constantly applying their respective element causing a bunch of overloaded reaction.
Characters like yae miko and lynney are both just better than wriothesley and I think that's not a controversial take And talking about thresholds that need to be met and damage falling off under certain conditions, both of them don't have that, they just have a consistent damage profile that keeps on going with a multitude of supports Even navia is like that, sure you might wanna end in 2 skills but you can always use a 3rd one in emergencies Navia from a practical perspective has proven herself to be better than wriothesley and childe I feel like
No lie, I clear way easier and faster with navia than hutao at the same level of investment. I'd easily swap the two, especially since navia hits different elemental requirements much easier. Double geo double Pyro clears the same as double hydro or hyperbloom navia when she needs to deal with different shields. They can each run plunge teams with xianyun too but navia's version has more aoe and isn't reaction dependent
@@Nerdslayer0ngl stop giving us anecdotes as proof of anything. It's an anecdote and if you use an anecdote as the main or only reason why you're right or to prove that your point is true then you're just appealing to the anecdotal fallacy. It's illogical my guy.
@@Nerdslayer0because going of most people personal anecdotes, neuv does the most damage in the game by far, its not even close. But guess what, what I just said can be something to be considered in a conversation but if I'm saying neuv is better than arle because of anecdotal situation A or B then you're literally just illogical or even delusional.
@@Nerdslayer0 see I love navia and I'm pulling her in 7 hours. But the nice things about calcs is it tells us something Either your navia and her teams are way more invested Or you have a massive skill issue. Hu Tao, played properly does wayy more damage than navia, like it's not even close But navia's consistency is definitely a factor for which I want her places higher, but not higher than Hu Tao
I watched this live, was a really good discussion. As an Ayaka main, I think you're the only cc who shares the same opinion on Ayaka as me when you labelled her as one of the most fun characters to play I was like "this guy is incredibly based", cus I agree completely Also I feel the raiden hate is overblown atm, when I use my alt or help clear my friend's accounts, raiden makes things so much easier. She's a really solid unit all around
Nobody wants to pull for C3R1 Raiden just to get good DPS out of her. It was OK with her release-hype, but "never again" Otherwise she's just a support
@@jeanwinter5275 With Chev you doN't really need C3R1, it is such a misinfo. I cleared with her easily with with C5 Chev when I had her on C0, C1 and C2 as well. She is the best dps? No, not at all. You need C3R1? Hell no. She is just a nice all-arounder at C0, not the best dps, but have some nice up-sides with how flexible she is.
@@jeanwinter5275 You don't need C3 though, C0 with Catch works perfectly fine. In fact I value her as a hyperbloom trigger as well. She's a very flexible dps with a solid kit, with good f2p options
Tbh Ayaka mostly fell off because of the enemies line-up And honestly Ayaka is only fun with Shenhe, the quill management to be able to buff her burst is pretty satisfying to pull off. And since most people dont own Shenhe (stuck on hoyo's basement), people's opinion on Ayaka are pretty bad
Not sure if this was a part of the criteria when ranking or not but I would also use resin efficiency as a positive for Raiden at the F2P level. EoSF being usable on 3 out of 4 units on Raiden National I feel is really important when taking into a F2P player or even maybe a more casual player that lets their resin cap for a day or two.
As a Raiden main, buddy, you made my day for real. The cope of "Raiden is bad" is getting out of hand, even though I've been playing her for 2 years continuously without having any trouble 36-starring the Abyss. No matter what the abyss through at me ( expect for electro resistance enemies ofc)
@@stylerxo3654 like rest of the characters ? Even then i would argue that's not the case because , her abyss usage rate is almost consistently high with the other top dps . the second reason being her utility & DMG she provides is still above average
You realize how poor of an argument "i'm not having any trouble 36*" is, right? Like, when people say Raiden is "bad", mostly they don't mean it in a way that means Raiden doesn't clear. They mean she's bad comparatively to better DPS characters and/or fell off. As a Raiden haver it's been ages I didn't use her precisely because there's just better options (but she's not BAD). The usage rates argument is also insanely bad and I'm surprised you mentioned this considering you're under a video with TGS, which like to repeats a lot that usage rates isn't a good argument to judge whether a character is good or not
@@osmano8498 When I mentioned clearing the Abyss, it was to show how reliant I am on her even after 2 years, not that she is *the best* DPS. I've seen people in the live chat of the same video talking about how trash her damage is, and I mentioned the usage rate because it indicates that the majority of players still choose her because of the comfort and reliability she offers. Don't you think you're kind of exaggerating by saying it's insanely bad metric ? Who hurt you, bro? I have all the top DPS characters like Arlecchino, Neuvillette, and Navia, with decent F2P to top 1% builds, and I do believe Raiden deserves to be in the top 10 best DPS list. That was my main point.
I still think Raiden is one of the few characters that has as much value for f2p as it does for dolphin investment. Her ease of use and not needing zhongli for interupt resist is so much more valuable than its given credit. Plus her vertical investment makes her stay relevant for a long time.
Doesnt matter if she does so much less damage than modern characters. If you cant meet the DPS check without high con supports then it doesnt matter if you dont get interrupted. Also characters like navia bring their own interrupt resist with crystallize while others slot xingqiu or zhongli, its not that rare of a thing.
45:38 what do you mean, if X person is a Hu Tao main or is meta oriented in any way, they pull yelan. Pretty much everyone should have furina and then it comes to pulling C1 or a whole other character that on the whole is a pretty good character. The choice is obviously enough and in single target, both C1 double hydro and C0 xianyun have similar ceilings but in aoe it's even better
Dang your Wriosthley argument would invalidate my new favorite character, Clorinde -- and yet onlining her team Aggravate team helped me 36★ my first Abyss
its ok I'm a clorinde main myself yet in this video i'm arguing shes too high in his video! 😅 and everything is account dependent so ultimately all that matters is what worked for you
@@jamiekb9v I hear ya, I think its worth having exceptions to the idea of 'Main DPS' in general. In particular to Clorinde the way she enables Fischl -- or just having a whole mess of reactions in other archetypes, I think makes her bring something unique to the table even if most teams don't have her pulling away clearly from the 2nd place dps on the team. I heard you lionize Overload as her best team, and while I lack a good Chevreuse rn, I do look forward to building it. It's interesting too, that's the one team archetype for her that bucks the trend of not being clearly "Main" dps.
Wow so sad that hu tao has this proklem. Alhaitham has this problem (the most too), childe, etc. Like just because a character isnt doing the majority dont mean nothing. I also compared gameplay between navia and clorinde and their times were the same.
@@jamiekb9v is Clorinde better than Al Haitham? thats kind of the vibe i got from what you were saying, since her quickbloom is about as good as his hyperbloom and her aggravate is better than his spread, plus she also has overload. or is his flexible rotations better?
I totally agree with your Wriothesley, Hu tao and Nilou takes. I have very decent investment across my 2 ids. I feel like Wriothesley isn't that strong when I play him in abyss. When playing with Xiangling i have to increase her ER a lot to comfortably rotate my team. Then again when i use the same core with Navia or Raiden whole team performs much better ans clear much faster as well. And Nilou, she is literally blessing. I have no sig or constellation but she feels much better rhan other characters with 5* weapons. I joined after Hu tao's debut banner. She was so praised back then that I went getting her C0 and weapon on 2.3. I was very disappointed tbh. Now that we have hyperbloom I don't feel like she is that strong of a dps. But if you include xianyun i think that spot is arguably justified.
I think it's good to have different perspectives from players, because each one has different build and stats, for example me, as dps I have Neuvilette, Alhaitham, Wriothesley and Navia. Unfortunately, the one that performs the worse is Navia, probably because I invested less on her than the other 3, her domain is too niche and I kinda feel desmotivated to farm it. While the other dps have general domains. Btw, my navia crits is 87/177, 1900 atk with SS r1.
Fr tho I agree with Jamie with Raiden, whenever I just wanna clear a half when I'm in doubt I just slap any Raiden team cause there's literally a Raiden team to anything and it's gonna be easy cause of her kit. Her and Bennett just wont die tbh If you're F2P Raiden is one of the Char you should be pulling. She's just so comfortable to play like if you ask me to say a Character that defines comfort in this game, It's her. Perfect Interruption resist and elevates your teams ER issue makes her teammates crappy build works.
I think the reason that characters like nahida furiina kazuha arent included here cus they are classified as "support" and can be played as support while literally everyone in the lost aside from nilou is useless from off field
Hu tao dmg contribution at C0(okay so initially I was gonna do realistic 4 star weapons like dragons bane r1 or r3 but all the calcs I saw were primarily fjords followed by death match. So just assume all are BP weapon for C0 hu tao and support are C0 R0 except 4stars who are C6) Furina, bennet and xiangling (BP weapon hu tao) - 40% Furina, baizhu and yelan (BP weapon hu tao) - 48% xianyun, furina and xingqui - 60% xianyun, furina and yelan - 54% sucrose, yelana and bennet - 82% Zhongli, chiori and yelan - 43% Yelan, furina/xingqui and zhongli - 45%/44% respectively Chevreuse, bennet and fischl - 53% Furina, bennet and yelan - 59% On average hu tao team contribution is round up to 53% vs wrio who is round up to 59% Mind you wrio only used widsith in all of them. Hu tao used fjords in most or deathmatch. And I indiscriminately used teams for wrio, didn't matter how random. For hu tao I skipped teams with 2 sub dps that didn't buff hu tao at all, becaus if hu tao was already doing the minority of the team dps in teams where she is getting buffed by the sub dps, imagine what she would look like with 2 sub dps not buffing her at all. It wiuld make her average even lower. My inference from this is that wriotheslet and hu tao have very similar dmg contributions to their teams for C0 So then why does wrio get so much criticism and no hu tao for this by Jamie??
Wriothesley (C0) team damage contribution; Wrio, nahida, bennet and lynette - 78% nahida, bennet and xiangling - 70.77% zhongli, bennet and xiangling - 73.3% shenhe, layla and kazuha - 65.6% Zhonglj, chiori and shenhe - 58% Furina, yelan and jean - 39% Furina, bennet and xiangling - 55% Kuki, nahida and furina - 30% So as someone mentioned above, a main dps has to be doing 55% of the teams damage and wrio was doing that in most of these teams. Also these are from GCsim and GCsim is bad for comparing damage between teams but for seeing team dmg contribution it is likely more accurate than normal calculations done manually by people. So that's the first myth that is in this video. Wriothesley does do the majority of his team dps. It obviously varies depending on C0 investment but regardless.
Regardin Wryo I think there are few factors -his best team is Furina /Xl -his dmg numbers are not great in vacum and depend on proper melts -he hits often with a lot of small numbers few ppl actually have Wryo ir know how to play him
@@putent9623 well. depends if you pull weapons from time to time. As f2p I have 2 R5 widsith + Engulfing, Homa, Elegy, TT, Crimson, Al weapon, 2 R5 fav swords, 3 fav bows, 2R4 spears. Total probably 14-15 limited chars for 2.5 y play 1.0. player will have much more. The point is in time and for your fav chars you can get upgrades a const or weapon. pulling weapons is also resin efficient + you need favs Widsith protype etc.
In terms of Wriotheseley, he's one of the only 5 star DPS I have yet I still cannot justify leveling him because the number of teams he has is literally one (I only had xingqiu and mona for him). Because good hydros are 5 stars, it's difficult to justify wrio taking your best hydro when there are so many characters who can utilise them better. And to apply enough cryo for Xiangling without hydro means building a cryo character who is competing with meta supports and more versatile DPS (for my account, might not apply to others). I would personally consider Xiao or Wanderer instead just because they can do as much as wrio without c6 faruzan and still fit in more diverse teams Now that I have Furina, I can finally level Wrio for fun, but only because I'm already farming her domain for the other 5* DPS or drivers I would rather vertically invest (Xiao, Wanderer, c6 yanfei, sucrose, nahida). Otherwise he would have remained level 1 with my Eula, Diluc, Chiori... At higher investment once I've built 2 teams that can 36*, maybe I would consider Wrio even if I never got Furina
I think on-field main dps nahida is still really strong. Thats what was missed. Like kazuha or furina cant be on field whereas nahida can. And nahida isn’t necessarily stronger than alhaitham but for f2p i think nahida dps should be top 2 and alhaitham (even without nahida) should still be top 3
imo big problem of this video is not knowing full list because is harder to argue about position if you dont know who is higher on the list and who is not on the list
him saying limited vertical investment and also saying nahida does no dmg is insane.... have u seen the damage her chain does and how much EM she give to the team....
I think a major point to address besides just "f2p investment" is also domain investment. You can use kqm standards, but some domains just have ass value when farming. For example, I would rate someone that doesnt use artifacts that are in ESF, deepwood, marechau hunter or something you can't strongbox lower on the list since the investment level is higher for the resin opportunity cost for the account overall. Hence for me, someone like arle or navia would never even be top 8 since the healing set and the burning set on my account are just dead sets.
as other ppl pointed out, i think you completely missed the point of TGS's video. this isn't a "highest value pull" video. you keep going back to the argument of "what helped me clear abyss on bad accounts was X" which is the criteria for "value". i also think you had some crazy takes like on wristhley you argue he's not the DPS of the team because his dmg share was roughly even with xiangling, but later you go to say nahida should be on the list even though she doesn't answer the standard you set for wristhley - "have a high enough dmg share". you also keep proposing 4* characters to the list. the title of the video is "... Best 5* DPS...". i also completely disagree with your hu tao take but that's probably because of my account state. i think saying "i couldnt clear with hutao, i had to use hyperbloom" is either a big self-expose, or that simply hu tao's artifacts on that account were dogshit (or maybe other elemental requirements for shield breaks were needed, but that's out of the discussion). we all know crit carries need better artifacts, no shit hyperbloom clears better than who has 10 good rolls on their artifacts. crit carries need like...30-roll builds. accounts who struggle to clear abyss don't have that, otherwise they wouldn't struggle. my disagreement on hutao aside, i think you simply came into this with the wrong mindset, which IMO made for a poor video. you also came off as a bit of a contrarian here, you disagreed on everything except neuv, which is fair, you're entitled to your opinion, just saying how it felt to me.
you can watch my channel, I have dozens of hu tao speedruns, tc & guides over the years. some ppl say I even promoted hu tao bennett vv vape in the western community first. i know how to play her more than you can believe 😅
57:00 you see Jamie this is where you misunderstand the concept of the video. It's not for people that want to get their first 36 star and that's it It's for people like me, who have cleared easily since 4.1. who have good artifacts, who have broken supports available for both sides, who's got the artifact investment and the game knowledge Who's gonna perform well for me? And the answer is arlachino is top 2 when you put the proper artifacts on her I don't care about raiden's comfort when my well invested ( in terms of artifacts) arlachino can just wipe the floor with everything But turn that arlachino into a clorinde, and yeah, I'd prefer raiden's utility cuz the damage isn't that far off practically speaking
i feel like Al Haitham most of the time is like vertically investing in your HyperBloom team if you never use strictly quicken. so he wouldn't be a priority DPS for F2P
1:01:56 disagree, just play nahida xingqiu double dendro it's fine And have you tried playing baizhu infield hyperbloom? I know it sounds cringe but him having shields and him being a tall male means he can very easily stay close to enemies. It is so easy, you can play double hydro, you get infinite heals. The abyss feals SOO easy with baizhu hyperbloom. So again, nahida is the utility, but that utility can change hands
Onfield nahida is clunky and not fun t play. Hyperbloom has no aoe or fun factor without alhaitham. If you don't own alhaitham don't even bother with dendro man.
@@D4C_267 I actually find 2hydro HBloom pretty fun due to rotation flexibility and I've done a couple of abyss runs where I did not find Alhaitham to be particularly better at least in my standard of investment.
I would like to see a team archetype and sub archetype ranking video for aoe and single target scenario by TGS and a reviewed by you. Like hyperbloom , hypercarry , no main dps(national , double hydro hyperbloom), freaze , swirl setups , bloom (nilou ,kaveh) , mono element (mono pyro ,mono hydro,mono geo) etc
"no main dps" is the most common archetype, just build your supports right. I always count how many damage sources I have in the team. Usually it's three. Some teams allow for Four, but everything dies even before I switch to the fourth character, so it's only for bosses without invulnerability phases. National is actually pretty bad in this regard (comperatively). There are much-much better teams, namely quickbloom - nobody believed me in TC discords when Cyno came out and quickbloom-Raiden tests started. Most TCs are keeping their heads in the sand.
Great video and I would put Navia higher as well. I think the fact thet you can play so much different characters with her and she still good is a very good thing. Yeah, the weapen stuff is annoying, but you can just craft the Fontaine weapen and build teams around it.
This was hard to watch, honestly. You invite another creator onto your stream to discuss their tier list. Can’t think of a more daunting prospect to begin with, yet TGS does it. And you do not much more than challenge every single one of his choices (knowing very well that there is no such thing as an objective tier list, there are too many factors and considerations), while laughing and joking with your chat. How nice it would have been if you two would have had a good discussion and come to a joint point of view, instead of you trying to ‘get’ him at every turn. At times it almost felt like a roast. Also, you talked at least twice as much as him. Not a good look it you invite someone into your space. I’ve always liked you in your content, but here you came across as very unsympathetic and sometimes plain rude. And before anyone calls me a TGS fan boy, I have no particular opinion about him either way, I don’t enjoy his content more than Jamie’s.
The thing that frustrates me about the “f2p” dialogue is how people constantly equate f2p as either being “new” “casual “ or “bad at the game “ You don’t just stop being f2p after playing for a year, and it’s incredibly realistic for a f2p player to have 5+ five star characters and a few R5 four star weapons after a year of playing. Also having good artifacs has nothing to do with being f2p or not. I’d love to see this kind of discussion more focused on the long term growth of a f2p account rather than assuming like “best two 5 stars to speed run a first abyss clear “ Also we all know 4 star characters can be as strong as 5 stars but nobody actually likes being told “just play xaingling “ when their question is about which 5 star on fielder to get. I think a lot of Jamies’ arguments would have made more sense if the tierlist was “most primogem efficient 5 stars for new players “
thats a fair point, however the issue with that is there is nothing that stops f2p players from pulling strong C1s or C2s and signature weapons either that are the bigger upgrades than small teammate differences. But that would also make this tier list concept fall apart too. In fact thats exactly what i do in genshin, hsr, and wuwa. Ultimately, this is just a video concept TGS decided to do with his own parameters on what he considers "F2P" for this video idea. Just like I prefered to look at it for new players looking to get 36 star as those are the types of people who I believe are most likely to click a "top 5 star for f2p" titled video looking for help. its all subjective.
@@jamiekb9v agreed, allowing cons or signature weapons would definitely be reasonable for f2p who are planning out their pulls well in advance. I feel like that kind of long term budgeting/account planning doesn’t get talked about enough.
If you compare with Xiangling teams yeah, Hu Tao is unviable for the same reason as Wriotheseley. But if someone put a watergun to your head and asked you to only use 5* hypercarty teams, would Hu Tao make the top 10? I don't have her, I don't play her, I don't mind her being number 5 cause the specific order doesn't matter as much as what you already have on your account imo. As long as Neuvu Archie are top 3 😂
My fav CCs collaborating and start it off talking soccer. This is peak. Also Allez les bleus 🇫🇷 congrats to Spain 🇪🇸 tho they were the best team the entire tourney
Ngl I couldn't make it past the first part of the video. Already saw TGS's video so I knew what his list was going to be. But the discussion here didn't provide much imo. Also some of the takes seemed kinda...pointless? For example, questioning "is it unwise to pull on the weapon banner?". Most if not all viewers on a TC's 1 hour content video will be aware that the weapon banner is a scam and thus doesn't need an explanation. There was also the "main DPS" discussion - namely for Wrio. If Wrio is doing 40% of the dmg for a given team, then he's the main DPS (why there was an argument on this...idk lol). Trying to dig into semantics or "feels" crafting distorts the usefulness of the discussion and just doesn't provide anything. Also, the parameters of rating a given character should be upheld throughout the discussion - which in this case are the assumptions TGS set in his video. Referring to a couple points brought up such as "improving a team by replacing with a 4 star" (though this was addressed but shouldn't have happened) or too much emphasis on "ability to full star clear abyss". Kinda gave an arguing for the sake of arguing vibe. TL:DR Small gap of expectations vs reality for me personally. Discussion was more content based than necessarily TC based. P.S. Navia should be top 5 minimal fr fr
i also got my first 36 star with raiden.. if alhaittam as a hyperbloom driver gets to be in top 3 then raiden should easily be number 2 if not 1. raiden is just so smooth. easy to build. most resin efficient artifact. and she makes the team happen.
To be fair, she is pretty good for F2P investment. Collei is one of the best characters in Nilou teams, and she's completely free and only gets better with constellations. Nahida is the best character in the game, so she should be prioritized. And then the final slot can be Barbara, who is also free, and you're fine.
@@stylerxo3654Yea u pull a singular Nilou and you already have a relatively strong team in the context of having bare investment (Barbara, Collei, DMC, all free units) due to the nature of how the transformative Dendro reactions are Nilou's very high ceiling helps her a lot in a strict f2p tier list, combined with how u can just "spam skills" but still having a lot of room for skill expression if relevant makes her potent under TGS' conditions imo
@@yoda5358 and the team can be flexible to build for specific chambers, too. If it's a mix between AOE and ST, you can pull Alhaitham and swap the team around, Xingqiu as the second Hydro and YaoYao as the second Dendro. There's also Kinich coming soon, and he's said to be a Bloom DPS, which immediately makes me think Nilou.
@@willpickering5829 Yes because she is an absurd character who has an entire f2p team that is uncontested by other teams as opposed to vying for xiangling, xingqiu or bennett or even a swirler.
At 42:00, do you think arle or any other dps mentioned in this video is any better at surviving here than hutao?(talking about cryo aura and one shot potential). Why do ccs always feel like they need to trash talk hu tao? She's one of the best single target dps in the game!The argument always is how hard she is to play...like how hard is to press jump!? Also, full 5 star team is one of the options.. I paly her with furina xingqiu charlotte and she does fine even with my terrible build. As a cc you should realise that the same arguments against her can be made against every onfield dps. If this is the case then I'd argue that neuvilette is the most shit chr to play with out a shileder because with hutao atleast im not losing my dps for 10 sec if i get knocked out of my chagerd atk unlike neuviltte.(I can't even remember the no of time this happend to me just today in the abyss12 1 2) I know neuvilette is better than most dps chrs in game but still the point is very vaild and i never hear any one say hes a bad chr because of this one issue.. Some how this concerns every ccs only when it comes to hutao's case Do you think an avg player who is not skilled enough to paly hu tao cancels can play arrlechino without a shileder and not die within 5 secs against some one like kenki??!
Literally, it’s such a stupid argument ppl still make to this day and idk why, tge if the average person according to these CCs can’t do a simple fucking jump Cancel, how are they expected to play arlecchino without a zhongli
@@jsk1429people way overestimate how hard it is to play arle, like it's so incredibly easy to stay alive as her since you're basically always at full stamina, just needing to spam autos also gives you way more brain power to divert to attack patterns
@@pioneershark2230I own all the above mentioned 5 stars.. Regardless of what any tc/cc says, either they're all shit to play without a shileder or they're all good to play...(totally depends on you skill.. if u need a shielder for hu tao then u need a shielder for neuvilette/arle as well) No single chr is objectively better at survival than others, except maybe kokomi onfiled This is just a misconception spread by some TCs/CCs form ealry on in the game
@@Floppyturtle-rt1jwneuv is for sure but aside from that I agree. I play lyney and I don't need or want a shield. Well ganyu on the other hand is actually impossible imo. Unless you're that good. She doesn't rely on burst and e like lyney but regardless people overestimate shields. But it's fair ig.
I'd consider nahida more of a support than DPS. Yes the team is built around her but she's more of enabling seed generation than actually doing the damage. Its the same as saying yelan is the dps in hutao teams or xiangling is the dps in neuv teams. Its a different case to nilou where she basically works like xian yun. Xian yun is kinda the main character providing the damage in those teams the same way nilou is providing them super blooms. In that way these 2 units can be considered the DPS in the team compare to nahida. Nahida functions more like an enabler, the hyperbloom reaction doesnt change just by adding her. If anyone's doing the DPS in that team its kuki/raiden. Why not just mention them instead and focus on their nahida teams.
Wriothesely does do the most damage in all of his teams, bith MeltVape and Freeze. I feel like Jamie just doesnt have the experience with Wriothesely to understand his comps. Wriothesely will also be doing the most damage in his Emilie variants, unlike Cyno.
to be fair, i've probably played wriothesley in abyss on like 15~ different accounts at this point. not saying im a wriothesley god or anything but its a good amount of experience with many account situations and levels of investment
Wrio does the most as a single character in his teams, but in a comp like Yelan+Furina, they do the majority of the team dmg combined. Compare this to Navia, who is actually 70%+ of the team dmg by herself. I agree with Jamie in the idea that a main DPS should be at least like 55%+ of the team's dmg on their own. Because if they aren't the majority of the total team DPS, can they be considered "main"? But TGS is not using that as his criteria, which I think they should've clarified for each other at the start.
@@Yelan-n8d yes, and in my opinion, drivers are not main DPS. Because they are driving the reactions for the other team members to do majority dmg. TGS clearly thinks differently, and that's fine. But that's why I would've ordered this list differently.
Kuki hyperbloom without nahida still deals way lota dmg... Yes nahida does make a huge difference but all hyperbloom needs is c2 kuki hydro and a good dendro applier ( that we don't have many except for nahida, alhaitham) but still it's not nahida who is contributing in the main dmg its the 1000 em kuki..she is only applying lots of dendro...
53:48 yeah in pretty much every Fontaine abyss it's been like. Nope, can't play nilou there cuz that And even when she could, and now this is going away from nilou. You couldn't play the kokomi variant, the hypothetical “best” variant cuz you needed hydro damage to deal with dendro Specters or like alhaitham damage to deal with more single target So people that glaze kokomi for being so good with nilou, she's often the first character to go when things aren't optimal. She isn't an optimal S tier support, stop the cope
Alhaitham, especially for a newer F2P player, is not even in top 10 dps I would recommend. How is he above Arle is a mystery for me, and generally, I never understood the hype about him (I have him). Clunky character with a clunky team.
Skill issue I must say, you're just salt because spread cant deal damage like how vape and melt deals damage because they're a multiplier while spread is additive dmg. Me as alhaitham main without sigmature weapin and only relying to harbinger is dawn. 36 star was easy for me and I had no problems during runs, I had alhaitham first and he's the reason why I pulled for nahida (bcuz I skipped her release) doing abyss without nahida was still got but yeah nahida was an upgrade tbh, but it doesnt mean that you really need her because there are so many alternatives And I dont rely on hyperblooms dmg honestly, my kuki's on instructor and r5 sapwood blade My alhaitham's deals 70k per spread with harbinger of dawn and nahida cant deal that amount of dmg on dual hydro hyoerbloom. And yeah I tested nahida onfield hypebloom and its clunky as hell for me.
I slightly disagree with TGS on Navia. I think she feels great for F2P level of investment. The problem is that it is very difficult for everyone to give a non-bias opinion or give the accurate ranking since everyone experiences thing differently. for context, I have C1 Navia with high stat volume artifacts + R5 SS on my account and I can easily one rotate most ST boss but when I play C0 Navia with bare minimum artifacts + R5 Tidal on my friend’s account. yeah, it feels worse to me but when I did the excel calc or the gcsim. the damage isn’t bad at all despite it feeling worse. that’s what I meant about bias. Also, I’m glad that Raiden made it to the list. I think she get too much hate. I believe it stems from the fact that people were salty about C2 Raiden being way too strong compared to C0. It was indeed a very disgusting business practice and I won’t argue but that doesn’t invalidate Raiden at C0 by any mean.
Average DPS does 600-800k per rotation. My F2P DPS-Nahida does that while being off-field, like 69k procs (without Furina). She deserves #1 place as she's the best pick with bad artifacts for hyperbloom and she's also the best pick with cracked artifact set for a dps-role. But she was advertised as OP with just BS arts, which people did put on her afterall. Same goes for Navia and her "bad-in-AoE" label - it's a TC mistake on release which got spread. 1/2 of her skill damage is set in stone and only other half is counted by stacks. More enemies = more damage. Simple math. PLS make post-releases after a month since release at minimum. Let the rushed money-making "guides" be flawed - doesn't matter. But ffs make things right, better late than never. Like you main-ing Clorinde in overload - that's a rare situation considering what has been told in "guides"
nilou is sooo easy to build, i just got her on her rerun, im telling you, it took me like 10 minutes, i strongboxed some stuff into tenacity for 20% HP, i got 2 pc wanderers, and since hp is soo easy to roll i was just getting HP after HP, HP main stats out of nowhere, before that i had NO HP pieces other than from healing bonus set now i have 62K HP (level 80 still can be MILES better, and i got her P2W weapon, thats the reason of why i pulled i was like "if i get nilou it would be really really cool, she's a strong dps, i got C1 baizhu, i got C1 furina I AM NOT A WHALE I JUST GOT LUCKY I SWEARR im not whaling on this game LMAO, i got furina with festering desire, so nilou would be a GREAT addition). in conclusion this character is busted at lvl 50 i was melting bosses, which is where she works the worst imagine a pack of enemies
Its such a pointless video to make "top main DPSes for a F2P player". The whole point of a video like this is to tell F2P players the best way to allocate primogems and to not include Nahida on a list like that is dumb. Locking away characters into arbitrary categories is pointless.
Like they said DPS isn't the one necessarily the most damage or the one enabling them to make the most damage but the character you build your team "around", and lets be real here NOBODY builds their team around nahida or bennet. There are arguments for Furina since she is pretty much capable of being a DPS herself. (Having a Nahida onfield dps SUCKS due to little nuances regarding her loli model being extremly bad for driving teams)
Dude "pull value" is duch a garbage metric to judge characters, like it's only relevant if you're trying to get your first 36* clear, in which case Nilou would probably be the best 5* unit in the game, and that is not the consensus as far as I'm aware. I think Alhaitham's placement is justified for the criteria of this list, you yourself admit that nahida hb archetype deserves to be top 2, however nahida is not a "main dps" while Alhaitham is, and he is factually the ceiling of nahida's hb teams, justifying his position. You don't need Alhaitham to make a good hb team but that doesn't make him any less strong in a vacuum.
Another thing about pull value is that it assumes all 5*s are available at all times. if your sole goal is to 36* as soon as possible, you might just have to pull any characters currently on banner even if they're suboptimal.
Nilou can either be one of the worsts or one of the best depending on the lineup. If you actually look at the 4.5/4.6/4.7/4.8 abyss lineups, Nilou is actually barely viable there. That's 4 lineups in a row where Nilou is barely viable/not competitive.
Are Nahida and nilou dps, by definition,a dps is a damage dealer that has good personal damage , one is a sub dps that doesnt deal any form of significant damage without hyperbloom, the other is more of an enabler than a dps so what are they even doing on this list, both have very meager contribution to the damage of their teams. Hyperbloom is the only thing that is making Nahida here her personal damage is not on par with any dps here and as for nilou, her passive is the one dealing damage her personal damage is zero in her teams so why is she here, if we are putting Nahida here that means Baizhu or any dendro applicator can be featured here as well as hyperbloom is the one contributing damage in the team as the average hyperbloom teams dps is higher than the dps of a lot of f2p dpses on this list As for nilou she is an enabler she cannot be a dps in the team, she is just an enabler that opens up a new playstyle like xianyun why is she on this list her personal damage when played optimally is non existent Like Nahida and nilou are carried solely by reactions, though other characters her are carried by reactions like hutao, writhsley etc, they all contribute to the damage directly to the team Nilou and Nahida literally rely on reactions to do something, their personal damage is insignificant in a team The best topic where Nahida and nilou would fit in is best f2p teams in genshin Like if you make a damage contribution chart like for the other dps, you would see that their damage cannot be measured in percent except Nahida and even then she is dealing insignificant damage in the team By definition, nilou and Nahida cannot be dps they cannot be here, they should have been replaced by Lyney and Yae miko
Also more to the argument is that a typical dps has a rotation whether it is as simple as neuvillette’s or as hard to execute as hutao’s, and the rotation must be followed if not their team dps would fall no matter how simple it is As for Nahida and nilou, their teams can dish out very good damage without following any rotation of sorts like you can start with any character and end a rotation with any character in the teams and the teams dps would not fall of Unlike characters like hutao or neuvillette who have to comply to a setup if not the damage of the team would fall off. So nilou and Nahida don’t fit the bill to qualify as a dpses in the team
Honestly I would take lyney over hu tao. Not even talking C6 where hu tao is almost a nobody. But C0 I'm taking lyney C1 ill give hu tao but anything C2 and above is back to lyney.
@@jsk1429I've never seen C0 Hu Tao being ahead of C0 Lyney in clear times, it's either a tie or quite opposite. It's usually at C1 where she starts to surpass him but that's it, and that's from low cost speedruns as well where Tao is always at C1. Now if it's more about the middle ground, aka taking other things in factor such as comfort where shielded Tao is stronger than shielded Lyney then it is debatable.
@@Fam98KK I have both alhaitham and hu tao C0 , hu tao is much much better , alhaitham is really overrated , also if you don't have kuki C2 , nahida and xingqiu C6 , don't even bother rolling for him lol
Farm emblem for Xiangling unless you already have a good set Tartaglia can use lots of sets, I wouldn’t recommend heart of depth because 4pc is BARELY better than 2pc 2pc combos and doesn’t buff his burst (which is more important imo) you can get away with 2pc atk, hydro, em, noblese; heck even 2pc emblem if you don’t have any er and you’re struggling to get your burst back I even heard argument for 4pc emblem but I don’t know much about it so take it with grain of salt
1:07:15 in the presumption they already have nahida furina yelan kazuha and characters like that Obviously you pull all of them before pretty much any DPS except neuvillette and Arlachino. So the discussion is what do you do afterwards If you're pulling alhaitham before nahida you're kinda stupid but if you're pulling pretty much anyone before nahida you're kinda throwing
wriothesley was one of my first 5 star characters and... he... is not good, at c0. I have top 100 build on akasha and his best teams other than shenhe and he never feels like he's doing anything.
43:27 this is all so much cope. Her damage is very visibly very high and there shouldn't even be a discussion about it And in terms of convo execution. Man if you pull Hu Tao as you dps, you'll learn to charge cancel in two days of pulling her cuz it's not that hard, you just need to commit to it once
Problem with your HT take is that there's a multitude of other characters, making it a problem if you're not almost exclusively a HT main. If you're not, then having to "re-learn" the timings on her cancels every time you pick her up is a clear disadvantage.
My copy pasta of hu tao team dmg contribution. She is in the same boat as alhaitham and wriothesley lmaoo Hu tao dmg contribution at C0(okay so initially I was gonna do realistic 4 star weapons like dragons bane r1 or r3 but all the calcs I saw were primarily fjords followed by death match. So just assume all are BP weapon for C0 hu tao and support are C0 R0 except 4stars who are C6) Furina, bennet and xiangling (BP weapon hu tao) - 40% Furina, baizhu and yelan (BP weapon hu tao) - 48% xianyun, furina and xingqui - 60% xianyun, furina and yelan - 54% sucrose, yelana and bennet - 82% Zhongli, chiori and yelan - 43% Yelan, furina/xingqui and zhongli - 45%/44% respectively Chevreuse, bennet and fischl - 53% Furina, bennet and yelan - 59% On average hu tao team contribution is round up to 53% vs wrio who is round up to 59% Mind you wrio only used widsith in all of them. Hu tao used fjords in most or deathmatch. And I indiscriminately used teams for wrio, didn't matter how random. For hu tao I skipped teams with 2 sub dps that didn't buff hu tao at all, becaus if hu tao was already doing the minority of the team dps in teams where she is getting buffed by the sub dps, imagine what she would look like with 2 sub dps not buffing her at all. It wiuld make her average even lower. My inference from this is that wriotheslet and hu tao have very similar dmg contributions to their teams for C0.
Jump cancels at C0 are done to prevent her damage from plummeting and turning her worse than average DPS in the game. Jamie said it himself, he cleared 36* on viewer accounts because he stopped using Hu Tao. I did my jump cancels, I saw jstern tried doing viewer acc run with C0 Hu Tao as well. It's all the same. They did good runs because they had C1 Hu Tao with high investment supports. She isn't doing better than average DPS at C0 without the plunge team, and not optimizing her ruins her performance
@@xendell154 just to be clear, we are given yelan furina jean for the Hu Tao team. Of Bennet yelan kazuha. Which is things you won't see on scuffed accounts. Which is not what the premise of this video is.
I think Hu Tao is amazing. She always clear the dorito, magu kenki etc. faster than all my other DPS and I use her at C0. People say she’s worse at C0 because she’s hard, but I honestly don’t think she’s that hard at all. Clicking and jumping is a Genshin characters definition of hard because half the characters in this game just require oonga boonga button mashing.
9:39 well you could use furina with Bennet xiangling, help distribute damage and give navia a buff. Which also makes her er a little higher, allowing sac great sword to shine
At first I was like where is Furina, because list starts with on-field drivers/enablers for Xiangling, and Furina can do that and more right from off-field too. This list even nave Nilou, she is a off-field bloom buffer! Chevreuse, kuki, Nahida, Furina is not on list? I don't get it. This list needs to be split between actual high DPS that need certain support, vs driver/enablers that makes strong comps posible imo
Regardless Nilou should be included to represent bloom team type. IMO it's not comparable to Chevreuse since overload teams can still exist without her through viable alternatives (anemo synergy), while bloom without Nilou is a meme.
guys let me know if you'd like more collabs like this! and thanks TGS for hanging out on stream
PS: everything is so account and playstyle dependent that it's impossible to really make a good tier list. I personally won't make one, but this discussion was still fun.
@@jamiekb9v Good collab and thanks for clearing the Ayaka thing.
Can you watch my last video and see how good performs a 100% F2P Ayaka in recent abyss? [can’t post the link] Tysm!
I personally like this type of collabs . Please do it more ,
Honestly I feel like you were focusing more on which DPS was easiest to 36 star the abyss, while TGS was focusing on which DPS could deal the most dmg with f2p gear consistently and that's the reason behind the majority of disagreements you guys had.
I also agree that Hu Tao is better DPS than Raiden, but wouldn't recommend pulling her over archon
love this content, you are two of my favorite genshin ccs because of your positive and honest attitudes. I can always tell how much you guys love Genshin
Arle is #2 on a Japanese DPS tier list.
And just as I said, England got smashed
mate
LMFAOOOOOOOOOO
Chad
PAAINNN
TGS +1 point for the 2-1
Nilou doesn't have as great as reputation as neuvillette because she's niche, but just in terms of resin investment to damage output, she's there at the top imo. She wants all the hp% artifacts, doesn't even need talent levels, you just need level 90 and a playable weapon and she already deals a lot of aoe damage. That's what f2p players would want imo
nahida
not full potential without nahida
You don't really need a weapon on her I think
considering how her kit works, nilou is the easiest unit to be disabled by the enemy lineup. neuvillette only weakness is hydro immunity otherwise he works regardless of the content
I think you misunderstood his criteria which made this discussion feel kinda like you were talking about completely different things. He didnt make his video considering a new player trying to get 36 stars with scuffed artifacts. Rather, he limited vertical investment and access to niche buffers. Nothing was stopping any of the characters on this list from having a min maxed late game artifact set and talents.
no misunderstandings, thats exactly the point of this discussion. me seeing a perspective on his "Top 5* DPS" list from another angle.
Why wouldnt f2ps have access to niche buffers if they arent new players though? F2P means nothing with how many primos the game hands you.
Most F2P players have clear favourite characters and build their accounts around them, that means pulling shenhe for ayaka etc.
F2P is a useless qualifier due to how different people play this game while not spending money.
Someone logging in 2x a week since launch is in this category, same as someone playing everyday and getting every primo or someone who just pulls 1x per year and gets a high con unit.
Zajef is F2P for all intents and purposes.
You just simply wont find a consistent average for F2P to build a definition around.
Account Age is a much more meaningful factor that can be used to advise players.
@@luminous3558 F2Ps have access to niche buffers. They all pretty much need C6 for the main DPS to be competitive though, which is where things become not relatable. These niche buffers are only rerunning with their respective main DPS, meaning you're always risking getting a constellation of the main DPS by pulling, which is far from being the best thing to do from a F2P perspective. That's why they're penalized. I'm a 1.1 player and I have C3 Sara (some of them I got on the standard banner by getting insanely lucky) and C4 Gorou (one was given for free). Not that long ago I didn't even have C2 of them.
Meaning you either need to luck out and have a rerunning banner of a 5 star character you actually want, or need to risk getting a constellation of the main DPS. Add onto that fact that these C6s often make night&day difference (compared to, say Xingqiu C6, while being very good isn't gamebreaker and doesn't suddenly make a DPS viable) and now you know why niche buffers are penalized.
I was so brainwashed by Alhaitam top 3 dps narrative that I completely forgot that Nahida is a good argument against him.
The same argument with clorinde or any other reaction carry. One becomes better with furina or with yelan. The only one that is free from this "becomes better with X" is the dragon daddy.
@@andersongomes3211 arle has higher solo damage than neuv but most people arent good enough at the game to play her like that. It's actually nuts how strong arle is even without Bennett, but with bennett she just becomes the highest dps unit in the game.
@@james-bx4wr Exactly. But we have to use some criteria for ranking. Personal dmg? Contruibution for the overall team dmg? I would put arle and dragon daddy up there for personal dmg.
That's like saying Bennet is the sub dps of the National team lol.
He gives a huge attack buff and pyro particles,and he would be the last member to replace,but that doesn't mean Xiangling isn't the subdps and Bennet the support
@@nk30020 she's not.
54:34 yeah, nilou is the DPS, no question. Cuz what's doing the damage? the bloom. It simply doesn't exist without her and even if we ignore that, her passive is giving alot of damage to the bloom, so that's a factor
It's like how other characters just need to apply the element for nilou to do damage, like candace just needs to apply hydro for arlachino to do more damage
Damn i guess childe is the dps too, since without him xiangling wouldnt be vaping
@@putent9623without him the team gets unambiguously better lmao. (Even within that niche vape comp)
@@putent9623 Xiangling is still a top tier dps without Childe. What is Childe without Xiangling?? What is bloom without Nilou?
@@wilburforce8046 are you restarted?
@@sweatymobilegamer784 Neuv vape my guy. Same team core. But no Bennet cringe and better overall performance.
My two favorite genshin creators talking for over an HOUR? Sign me the fuck up
More like arguing lol
Your favorite unit will most likely be ranked lower than you'd want them to be, because since they are your favorite unit, you are more likely to do some slight vertical investment. Whether thats something like going for crowns when you'd usually leave talents at 8/9, spending the extra couple of weeks in the mines for "better-than-kqm-standard" artifact pieces, investing in potentially bis but niche supports (that fall out of the scope of this vid btw), fishing for 4* weapons or refinements, throwing away precious copies of a weapon to refine for that small boost, fishing for 4* constellations, etc etc etc.
funnily enough as we talk about in this video, I say many of my favourites (clorinde, hu tao) are ranked higher than i'd put them 😅
@@jamiekb9v I know. I'm speaking to the X mains in your comment sections who are pissed that you don't think their favorite unit is SSS omega OP tier for f2p, dolphins, whales, babies, and sweat lord gamers.
True, I completely agree with that. People always tend to overestimate their favourite characters.
What I don't agree with is ccs gaslighting certain chrs because they don't like them or worse cuz certain tc said so ealry on in the game.. I think this is very bad for newer players, who they seem to care about soo much..
I hate when people trying to push their own bias towards certain units when instead of objectively ranking them. When u argue with every single chr placement, it's clearly just for the sake of making a video. Arguments made for argument's sake are BAD!
U can say certain dps is trash because they're hard to play but u can't say certain dps is trash because they don't have enough dps when u can see form the very video they're watching that they clearly do.
You can tell even tgs was annoyed several times during this discussion, because jamie seem to completely ignore the premise of this discussion.The video is titled top 10 best 5*dps f2p and not how day 1 players can 36 star. It's clear form the video that tgs assumes presence of staple 5 star supports and moderate investment into all chrs.Also saying some chr is bad because they see one all 5 star team is what makes me think they're biased
Every top dps in this list has atleast one all 5 star team which in most cases is their best team.
I also think certain people don't know what they're talking about, especially those who think "certain X mains are angry and think their main is SSS", when all said people are doing is pointing out that said chr is not as bad as people make them out to be
I think I agree with you mostly (especially on Raiden, Hutao), the only point I'd disagree with is on Nahida. I think calling her a dps stretches the definition too much but I can see your point.
Also I'd be really interested if you did a top speedrun DPS list that accounted for worthwhile 5* weapons and early constellations. There don't seem to be any lists of this kind on youtube and you'd be one of the best to do it.
thanks! although I've never been interested in making tier lists personally. especially something like speedrunning, where fundamentally players just pick their favourite DPS and learn how to optimise them as much as possible. most players only care about how fast they are compared to someone with the same character, and if not they learn.
I'm a mobile player and neuvillette is a god send to my account
51:26 That's so true, and that's why I don't get why people say she's restrictive. She legit works with more units than most other main DPSes; sure you can only use dendro and hydro but you honestly can use ANY dendro and hydro that's a lot 😭 she hard carries skill issue, build issue, roster issue, she truly is free half of the abbyss 💛
The TC Expanded Universe is my favourite universe cause 20 people calc the same thing but they all get different conclusions from it
Every one has different standards bases investments levels and combos
@@Neir4869 oh I understand and it's not a dig, just really funny haha
I been playing the game for years and since i ever got navia , not once hu tao , alhaitham or raiden was able to clear faster in any chamber
Very interesting... I'm honestly a little disappointed in Navia myself with R2 WGS and no cons obviously. She wrecked the 4.3 abyss that was made for her (similar clear times to my C1 R1 Tao) but ever since then I couldn't justify using her over my other units.
I do think there is perhaps some inconsistency in investment but I would prefer still to play plunge tao (which doesn't care about C1) over Navia any day of the week.
@@aerohydra3849
I also use her with WGS and she's by far my favourite DPS , the only DPS i would pick over her is Neuvellite
But to be fair you kinda needs zhongli or chiori with her , if you don't , then the only super meta team she is navia Bennett xianling furina
@@kingdoom5022 GMC the true meta choice! But technicly you can really put any random geo unit as the fourth unit and she will work, like, even C6 Gorou is not an entirly terrible option just for the crit damage buff.
This was so frustrating to watch. Bro ignored what tgs said until he repeated a bunch.
For example, "This list isn't for new players, I'm gonna assume you have the staple supports" and then you follow up with "if there is no furina" (wrio) or "if you don't have kazuha" (Chlorinde)
Or "i could put a 4 star here" when it's titled "top 10 5 star dps." Or when he literally said "xianyun is niche so I'm not putting much value on it for this list" and then you start talking about how it's an all 5 star team... like bro pay attention
You were also aggressive, like you weren't trying to have a discussion, you were just arguing for the sake of arguing. Like saying "this is a controversial take" for every character on the list. He even called you out on it.
Also, your viewer abyss runs aren't that useful of a metric. Most of the time they're either newer players who don't have that many characters, or they have bad builds. Which isn't the criteria for his list
Newer players looking for recommendations are the exact type of people who would watch a video titled "Top 10 Best 5* DPS For F2P 2024". TGS may not have intended for the parameters to be about pull value, but that will be the focus takeaway for a signficant amount of people watching. They will watch tier lists and think "ok should I pull this guy?". Hence discussing and scrutinizing the list from that angle is completely valid and a good idea. Btw TGS enjoyed this discussion a lot.
@@jamiekb9v I don't disagree with the idea of a different take but it didn't seem like you acknowledged that your "different take" was contrary to the rules TGS outlined in his original video. It was like you were trying to find fault in his ranking because you were coming at it from a perspective of low investment accounts looking for their first 36 stars. It would be one thing if you said "yeah character "A" being well invested makes sense here but if they aren't well invested they might drop more relative to Character "B" not being well invested. But you just went from your "different take" and actually constantly asked "Do you really think this character should be this high" as if you couldn't believe it and you were using low investment accounts with bad artifacts as your example. Again, I agree with coming at them from different angles but it honestly sounded like you believed your "different take" was the right take, rather than just another potential view. You constantly would find fault in his rankings saying you disagreed and used your own rules (ignoring TGS's original rules) and kept going back to your first 36 star runs. It's really just a matter of doing a better job of acknowledging the original ranking/perspective while then talking about how the ranking could change if you used a different perspective (rule set). I don't think you meant anything mean by it though.
I felt the exact same way. Treating a fellow TC’er like this, on your turf no less, is just rude. This was not a fair discussion, this was a roast.
I have HuTao C0 on Dragon. She is just not good enough. I will pick Wryo/Furina/XL over her every day. Many Hutao players have overinvested in artifacts and have Homa. Definitely I rank Raiden higher.
Regarding Wryo his Furina/XL team is very strong but outside of that he feels mid.
Arli as f2p is ok cos you can use it on gladiator. I have her on her signature and in that case she is right there with Neuvi.
disagree I have both c0 on a account (raiden hutao), hutao feel quite a lot better, and wrio is just bad to play
Well to each thier own , i have C0 hu tao and alhaitham and i would pick hu tao any day over alhaitham lol
@@Ohenheim how Hutao is better than Rational? or Raiden HB?
also what do you mean Wryo is bad to play?
@@ixirion I don't have energy issue/don't have to keep my ult for the next room, I don't like circle impact, and Raiden hb is just kuki with no healing and a bit more electro (I also don't have nahida on this account 'x') and Wryo doesn't feel good to play for me, the combo are weird, the energy for xiangling tend to be a bit hard to get, the damage is not good enough and again, I don't like circle impact, well it's too bad with him to be fair
@@Ohenheim In wryo team Furina is on fav and in my case C0 on R5 Widsith he does 120+ k melts and the team dps is rly high.
Regarding Raiden she has the advantage that for example in XL teams you can go EM sands and still get her burst in cooldown. Thats a huge dps gain. Again in Raiden case you a circle impact only during first slash. I however my have skewed perception of Raiden cos mine is on Engulfing and high investment artifacts.
also the benefit of raiden is her versatilty
In any sort of AOE content Raiden/Venti/Furina is crush.
you need to deal with pyro - Raiden double hydro, you are against cryo/hydro - rational
boss requires quicken - Raiden/Fichl
etc
you may have preference but if we are talking rating at mid investment Raiden is the better pick than HuTao. At high investment it becomes situational. The existence of Arlechino /Liney/XL/ Diluc plunge makes HuTao just an option to select.
Saying Nahida is dps of that team is like saying Bennet is the sub-dps of the national team.
I mean sure Bennet gives a huge buff and pyro particles,and he would be the last person to replace in that team, but that doesn't mean Xiangling isn't the sub dps dealing most of the damage and the Bennet the support
Its also good to note his spread team is close to quickbloom in usage,where he is the dps the team is built around
What alof of ppl are looking for in pulling a dps is to pull up a side that is struggling to clear, to clear, so it makes sense to put him there, alot of people may not be able to clear with DH hyperbloom,and Alhaitham can be what makes the difference between clearing and not clearing.
if that's what they are looking for then nahida is that difference maker. in fact yesterday we even helped more people get 36 star on stream with this concept. try comparing a full 4 star hyperbloom team vs adding in nahida, the difference is enormous. plus her being able to slot in 2 hydro teammates is also massive for 12-1-2 pyro shieldbreaking. again, no one is saying alhaitham is weak (I even say in this video he could be in this top 10 list), the point is nahida's that impactful, she could be 2nd.
@@jamiekb9v maybe you didn't read the last para.If they are struggling with Nahida+2H or Nahida+2E then Alhaitham might be what makes the difference.Im assuming they already have her
@@jamiekb9v doesnt Haitham double hydro do better dmg than Nahida?
@sauravthegreat that's a specific scenario. Also just because his agg teams (where he is majority but less than 50% usually) are used more doesn't change the fact that its dps is wayyy lower than hyperbloom.
It’s so interestig seeing how a units theoretical value differs from their practical value for me. And when I say that I do mean me specifically, I don’t mean to generalize for others experiences. I’ve always found raiden underwhelming except in hyperbloom (yeah), ayaka was my first premium dps and she’s been benched for so long, and I actually have an easier time 36* with a dehya mono Pyro team than an international team with childe as the driver instead. And that’s fully skill issue, but it’s also the reality of how the game is for me. Units are silly sometimes 😂
I think it is up to the player if it wants to masterize some characters or not, Childe international requires a lot of skill to double swirl, and keep the rotation correctly. Sometimes we just have to beat abyss with what we are truly comfortable.
@@Solairexz i think you’re right. perhaps there’s a timeline out there where I could play international, but I play on mobile + have ADHD which makes memorizing rotations difficult and even harder to break them correctly for greater dps so for me it’s truly the past of least resistance to use other characters and why I didn’t spend a lot of time getting better at it
Really loved seeing you guys together in 1 video.
I do wish you let tgs build a list based on your standard rather than trash his list based on standard he didnt use.
It felt like a bit of a disservice to him, when he would have had a completely different list if using the same standards as you. For example, he had to explain several times throughout your discussions that his list was based more on the dps ceiling for f2p rather than the floor (as you do with viewer abyss runs).
I hope you guys collaborate again though
no trashing, we get along well. we were literally joking (it didn't make this videos edit) that this was just a fun short stream to do before the euros final started. it was all a bit of fun with the stream chat. apologies if british humor doesn't always translate over the internet.
26:46 that point. Yae actually feels great on chevrouse teams and because fischl doesn't get A4 procs in chev teams, she's not supercharged so that brings yae higher in chevrouse teams
Arlecchino/Fischl/Beidou/Chev team will activate Fischl's A4 quite reliably, Beidou and Arlecchino are constantly applying their respective element causing a bunch of overloaded reaction.
@@snailwhale6673 that's one team, so great. That's how that team works. It's not indicative of the grander scheme
TGS and Zajef seem to agree that Wriothesely belongs in the top 10 f2p list. That's more than enough for me.
As a Nilou main myself, I love how people recognize her strength ❤
Characters like yae miko and lynney are both just better than wriothesley and I think that's not a controversial take
And talking about thresholds that need to be met and damage falling off under certain conditions, both of them don't have that, they just have a consistent damage profile that keeps on going with a multitude of supports
Even navia is like that, sure you might wanna end in 2 skills but you can always use a 3rd one in emergencies
Navia from a practical perspective has proven herself to be better than wriothesley and childe I feel like
Bro navia being ten is actually insane considering she doesn’t even have a good geo buffer rn
No lie, I clear way easier and faster with navia than hutao at the same level of investment. I'd easily swap the two, especially since navia hits different elemental requirements much easier.
Double geo double Pyro clears the same as double hydro or hyperbloom navia when she needs to deal with different shields. They can each run plunge teams with xianyun too but navia's version has more aoe and isn't reaction dependent
@@Nerdslayer0ngl stop giving us anecdotes as proof of anything. It's an anecdote and if you use an anecdote as the main or only reason why you're right or to prove that your point is true then you're just appealing to the anecdotal fallacy. It's illogical my guy.
@@Nerdslayer0because going of most people personal anecdotes, neuv does the most damage in the game by far, its not even close.
But guess what, what I just said can be something to be considered in a conversation but if I'm saying neuv is better than arle because of anecdotal situation A or B then you're literally just illogical or even delusional.
@@Nerdslayer0 see I love navia and I'm pulling her in 7 hours. But the nice things about calcs is it tells us something
Either your navia and her teams are way more invested
Or you have a massive skill issue. Hu Tao, played properly does wayy more damage than navia, like it's not even close
But navia's consistency is definitely a factor for which I want her places higher, but not higher than Hu Tao
I watched this live, was a really good discussion. As an Ayaka main, I think you're the only cc who shares the same opinion on Ayaka as me
when you labelled her as one of the most fun characters to play I was like "this guy is incredibly based", cus I agree completely
Also I feel the raiden hate is overblown atm, when I use my alt or help clear my friend's accounts, raiden makes things so much easier. She's a really solid unit all around
Watch my last 2 Ayaka videos and keep your point. (Can’t post the link, sorry).
Nobody wants to pull for C3R1 Raiden just to get good DPS out of her. It was OK with her release-hype, but "never again"
Otherwise she's just a support
@@jeanwinter5275 With Chev you doN't really need C3R1, it is such a misinfo. I cleared with her easily with with C5 Chev when I had her on C0, C1 and C2 as well. She is the best dps? No, not at all. You need C3R1? Hell no. She is just a nice all-arounder at C0, not the best dps, but have some nice up-sides with how flexible she is.
@@jeanwinter5275 You don't need C3 though, C0 with Catch works perfectly fine. In fact I value her as a hyperbloom trigger as well. She's a very flexible dps with a solid kit, with good f2p options
Tbh Ayaka mostly fell off because of the enemies line-up
And honestly Ayaka is only fun with Shenhe, the quill management to be able to buff her burst is pretty satisfying to pull off. And since most people dont own Shenhe (stuck on hoyo's basement), people's opinion on Ayaka are pretty bad
Not sure if this was a part of the criteria when ranking or not but I would also use resin efficiency as a positive for Raiden at the F2P level. EoSF being usable on 3 out of 4 units on Raiden National I feel is really important when taking into a F2P player or even maybe a more casual player that lets their resin cap for a day or two.
As a Raiden main, buddy, you made my day for real. The cope of "Raiden is bad" is getting out of hand, even though I've been playing her for 2 years continuously without having any trouble 36-starring the Abyss. No matter what the abyss through at me ( expect for electro resistance enemies ofc)
Raiden is so underrated nowadays
@@Lokibhai69 she fell off.
@@stylerxo3654 like rest of the characters ? Even then i would argue that's not the case because , her abyss usage rate is almost consistently high with the other top dps . the second reason being her utility & DMG she provides is still above average
You realize how poor of an argument "i'm not having any trouble 36*" is, right? Like, when people say Raiden is "bad", mostly they don't mean it in a way that means Raiden doesn't clear. They mean she's bad comparatively to better DPS characters and/or fell off. As a Raiden haver it's been ages I didn't use her precisely because there's just better options (but she's not BAD).
The usage rates argument is also insanely bad and I'm surprised you mentioned this considering you're under a video with TGS, which like to repeats a lot that usage rates isn't a good argument to judge whether a character is good or not
@@osmano8498 When I mentioned clearing the Abyss, it was to show how reliant I am on her even after 2 years, not that she is *the best* DPS. I've seen people in the live chat of the same video talking about how trash her damage is, and I mentioned the usage rate because it indicates that the majority of players still choose her because of the comfort and reliability she offers. Don't you think you're kind of exaggerating by saying it's insanely bad metric ? Who hurt you, bro?
I have all the top DPS characters like Arlecchino, Neuvillette, and Navia, with decent F2P to top 1% builds, and I do believe Raiden deserves to be in the top 10 best DPS list. That was my main point.
I still think Raiden is one of the few characters that has as much value for f2p as it does for dolphin investment. Her ease of use and not needing zhongli for interupt resist is so much more valuable than its given credit. Plus her vertical investment makes her stay relevant for a long time.
Doesnt matter if she does so much less damage than modern characters. If you cant meet the DPS check without high con supports then it doesnt matter if you dont get interrupted. Also characters like navia bring their own interrupt resist with crystallize while others slot xingqiu or zhongli, its not that rare of a thing.
@@luminous3558 yeah dude be happy with your scara/cyno/Navia hypercarry that cant beat a simple Raiden national.
@@CLTh4nos all 3 of them can very easily
@@dazaiosamu7184 You either comparing different levels of investiments or you just watch too much of hoyo employe... I mean, content creators
45:38 what do you mean, if X person is a Hu Tao main or is meta oriented in any way, they pull yelan. Pretty much everyone should have furina and then it comes to pulling C1 or a whole other character that on the whole is a pretty good character. The choice is obviously enough and in single target, both C1 double hydro and C0 xianyun have similar ceilings but in aoe it's even better
Everyone should have yelan
Xingqiu works fine in that team to lol
Dang your Wriosthley argument would invalidate my new favorite character, Clorinde -- and yet onlining her team Aggravate team helped me 36★ my first Abyss
its ok I'm a clorinde main myself yet in this video i'm arguing shes too high in his video! 😅 and everything is account dependent so ultimately all that matters is what worked for you
@@jamiekb9v I hear ya, I think its worth having exceptions to the idea of 'Main DPS' in general. In particular to Clorinde the way she enables Fischl -- or just having a whole mess of reactions in other archetypes, I think makes her bring something unique to the table even if most teams don't have her pulling away clearly from the 2nd place dps on the team.
I heard you lionize Overload as her best team, and while I lack a good Chevreuse rn, I do look forward to building it. It's interesting too, that's the one team archetype for her that bucks the trend of not being clearly "Main" dps.
Wow so sad that hu tao has this proklem. Alhaitham has this problem (the most too), childe, etc. Like just because a character isnt doing the majority dont mean nothing.
I also compared gameplay between navia and clorinde and their times were the same.
@@Exzeph yep overload is great, and ill pray for your chevreuse pull luck 🙏
@@jamiekb9v is Clorinde better than Al Haitham? thats kind of the vibe i got from what you were saying, since her quickbloom is about as good as his hyperbloom and her aggravate is better than his spread, plus she also has overload. or is his flexible rotations better?
Nice video lord, niloumains assemble
You are very the cool
I love how the best characters in Genshin start with the letter N right now: Nilou, Nahida, Neuvillette, Navia, Noelle, etc
You aint sneaking in noelle without anyone noticing😭
@@NAPZ- yes I am ;)
I totally agree with your Wriothesley, Hu tao and Nilou takes. I have very decent investment across my 2 ids. I feel like Wriothesley isn't that strong when I play him in abyss. When playing with Xiangling i have to increase her ER a lot to comfortably rotate my team. Then again when i use the same core with Navia or Raiden whole team performs much better ans clear much faster as well. And Nilou, she is literally blessing. I have no sig or constellation but she feels much better rhan other characters with 5* weapons. I joined after Hu tao's debut banner. She was so praised back then that I went getting her C0 and weapon on 2.3. I was very disappointed tbh. Now that we have hyperbloom I don't feel like she is that strong of a dps. But if you include xianyun i think that spot is arguably justified.
I think it's good to have different perspectives from players, because each one has different build and stats, for example me, as dps I have Neuvilette, Alhaitham, Wriothesley and Navia. Unfortunately, the one that performs the worse is Navia, probably because I invested less on her than the other 3, her domain is too niche and I kinda feel desmotivated to farm it. While the other dps have general domains. Btw, my navia crits is 87/177, 1900 atk with SS r1.
Best colab ever
Fr tho I agree with Jamie with Raiden, whenever I just wanna clear a half when I'm in doubt I just slap any Raiden team cause there's literally a Raiden team to anything and it's gonna be easy cause of her kit. Her and Bennett just wont die tbh If you're F2P Raiden is one of the Char you should be pulling. She's just so comfortable to play like if you ask me to say a Character that defines comfort in this game, It's her. Perfect Interruption resist and elevates your teams ER issue makes her teammates crappy build works.
I think the reason that characters like nahida furiina kazuha arent included here cus they are classified as "support" and can be played as support while literally everyone in the lost aside from nilou is useless from off field
Hu tao dmg contribution at C0(okay so initially I was gonna do realistic 4 star weapons like dragons bane r1 or r3 but all the calcs I saw were primarily fjords followed by death match. So just assume all are BP weapon for C0 hu tao and support are C0 R0 except 4stars who are C6)
Furina, bennet and xiangling (BP weapon hu tao) - 40%
Furina, baizhu and yelan (BP weapon hu tao) - 48%
xianyun, furina and xingqui - 60%
xianyun, furina and yelan - 54%
sucrose, yelana and bennet - 82%
Zhongli, chiori and yelan - 43%
Yelan, furina/xingqui and zhongli - 45%/44% respectively
Chevreuse, bennet and fischl - 53%
Furina, bennet and yelan - 59%
On average hu tao team contribution is round up to 53% vs wrio who is round up to 59%
Mind you wrio only used widsith in all of them. Hu tao used fjords in most or deathmatch. And I indiscriminately used teams for wrio, didn't matter how random. For hu tao I skipped teams with 2 sub dps that didn't buff hu tao at all, becaus if hu tao was already doing the minority of the team dps in teams where she is getting buffed by the sub dps, imagine what she would look like with 2 sub dps not buffing her at all. It wiuld make her average even lower. My inference from this is that wriotheslet and hu tao have very similar dmg contributions to their teams for C0
So then why does wrio get so much criticism and no hu tao for this by Jamie??
Wriothesley (C0) team damage contribution;
Wrio, nahida, bennet and lynette - 78%
nahida, bennet and xiangling - 70.77%
zhongli, bennet and xiangling - 73.3%
shenhe, layla and kazuha - 65.6%
Zhonglj, chiori and shenhe - 58%
Furina, yelan and jean - 39%
Furina, bennet and xiangling - 55%
Kuki, nahida and furina - 30%
So as someone mentioned above, a main dps has to be doing 55% of the teams damage and wrio was doing that in most of these teams. Also these are from GCsim and GCsim is bad for comparing damage between teams but for seeing team dmg contribution it is likely more accurate than normal calculations done manually by people.
So that's the first myth that is in this video. Wriothesley does do the majority of his team dps. It obviously varies depending on C0 investment but regardless.
Regardin Wryo I think there are few factors
-his best team is Furina /Xl
-his dmg numbers are not great in vacum and depend on proper melts
-he hits often with a lot of small numbers
few ppl actually have Wryo ir know how to play him
R5 dragon bane is better than R1 BP or about the same if you balance the stats
@kingdoom5022 yeah R5. How many people have R5 vs f2p. Also I cannot recall a single wrio one having more than R3 widsith
@@putent9623 well. depends if you pull weapons from time to time. As f2p I have 2 R5 widsith + Engulfing, Homa, Elegy, TT, Crimson, Al weapon, 2 R5 fav swords, 3 fav bows, 2R4 spears.
Total probably 14-15 limited chars for 2.5 y play
1.0. player will have much more.
The point is in time and for your fav chars you can get upgrades a const or weapon.
pulling weapons is also resin efficient + you need favs Widsith protype etc.
In terms of Wriotheseley, he's one of the only 5 star DPS I have yet I still cannot justify leveling him because the number of teams he has is literally one (I only had xingqiu and mona for him).
Because good hydros are 5 stars, it's difficult to justify wrio taking your best hydro when there are so many characters who can utilise them better. And to apply enough cryo for Xiangling without hydro means building a cryo character who is competing with meta supports and more versatile DPS (for my account, might not apply to others). I would personally consider Xiao or Wanderer instead just because they can do as much as wrio without c6 faruzan and still fit in more diverse teams
Now that I have Furina, I can finally level Wrio for fun, but only because I'm already farming her domain for the other 5* DPS or drivers I would rather vertically invest (Xiao, Wanderer, c6 yanfei, sucrose, nahida). Otherwise he would have remained level 1 with my Eula, Diluc, Chiori...
At higher investment once I've built 2 teams that can 36*, maybe I would consider Wrio even if I never got Furina
Hell yeah genshin pvp content we needed.
Seriously it's fun to discuss this thing in the game considering each person have different perspective
I think on-field main dps nahida is still really strong. Thats what was missed. Like kazuha or furina cant be on field whereas nahida can. And nahida isn’t necessarily stronger than alhaitham but for f2p i think nahida dps should be top 2 and alhaitham (even without nahida) should still be top 3
imo big problem of this video is not knowing full list because is harder to argue about position if you dont know who is higher on the list and who is not on the list
him saying limited vertical investment and also saying nahida does no dmg is insane.... have u seen the damage her chain does and how much EM she give to the team....
I think a major point to address besides just "f2p investment" is also domain investment. You can use kqm standards, but some domains just have ass value when farming. For example, I would rate someone that doesnt use artifacts that are in ESF, deepwood, marechau hunter or something you can't strongbox lower on the list since the investment level is higher for the resin opportunity cost for the account overall. Hence for me, someone like arle or navia would never even be top 8 since the healing set and the burning set on my account are just dead sets.
as other ppl pointed out, i think you completely missed the point of TGS's video. this isn't a "highest value pull" video. you keep going back to the argument of "what helped me clear abyss on bad accounts was X" which is the criteria for "value". i also think you had some crazy takes like on wristhley you argue he's not the DPS of the team because his dmg share was roughly even with xiangling, but later you go to say nahida should be on the list even though she doesn't answer the standard you set for wristhley - "have a high enough dmg share".
you also keep proposing 4* characters to the list. the title of the video is "... Best 5* DPS...".
i also completely disagree with your hu tao take but that's probably because of my account state. i think saying "i couldnt clear with hutao, i had to use hyperbloom" is either a big self-expose, or that simply hu tao's artifacts on that account were dogshit (or maybe other elemental requirements for shield breaks were needed, but that's out of the discussion). we all know crit carries need better artifacts, no shit hyperbloom clears better than who has 10 good rolls on their artifacts. crit carries need like...30-roll builds. accounts who struggle to clear abyss don't have that, otherwise they wouldn't struggle.
my disagreement on hutao aside, i think you simply came into this with the wrong mindset, which IMO made for a poor video. you also came off as a bit of a contrarian here, you disagreed on everything except neuv, which is fair, you're entitled to your opinion, just saying how it felt to me.
you can watch my channel, I have dozens of hu tao speedruns, tc & guides over the years. some ppl say I even promoted hu tao bennett vv vape in the western community first. i know how to play her more than you can believe 😅
@@jamiekb9vyes you are my favorite hu tao simp.
57:00 you see Jamie this is where you misunderstand the concept of the video. It's not for people that want to get their first 36 star and that's it
It's for people like me, who have cleared easily since 4.1. who have good artifacts, who have broken supports available for both sides, who's got the artifact investment and the game knowledge
Who's gonna perform well for me? And the answer is arlachino is top 2 when you put the proper artifacts on her
I don't care about raiden's comfort when my well invested ( in terms of artifacts) arlachino can just wipe the floor with everything
But turn that arlachino into a clorinde, and yeah, I'd prefer raiden's utility cuz the damage isn't that far off practically speaking
i feel like Al Haitham most of the time is like vertically investing in your HyperBloom team if you never use strictly quicken. so he wouldn't be a priority DPS for F2P
1:01:56 disagree, just play nahida xingqiu double dendro it's fine
And have you tried playing baizhu infield hyperbloom? I know it sounds cringe but him having shields and him being a tall male means he can very easily stay close to enemies. It is so easy, you can play double hydro, you get infinite heals. The abyss feals SOO easy with baizhu hyperbloom. So again, nahida is the utility, but that utility can change hands
Onfield nahida is clunky and not fun t play. Hyperbloom has no aoe or fun factor without alhaitham. If you don't own alhaitham don't even bother with dendro man.
@@D4C_267 I actually find 2hydro HBloom pretty fun due to rotation flexibility and I've done a couple of abyss runs where I did not find Alhaitham to be particularly better at least in my standard of investment.
@@D4C_267 As an avid aggravate enjoyer and Tighnari fan I can't abide with this statement.
I would like to see a team archetype and sub archetype ranking video for aoe and single target scenario by TGS and a reviewed by you. Like hyperbloom , hypercarry , no main dps(national , double hydro hyperbloom), freaze , swirl setups , bloom (nilou ,kaveh) , mono element (mono pyro ,mono hydro,mono geo) etc
"no main dps" is the most common archetype, just build your supports right.
I always count how many damage sources I have in the team. Usually it's three. Some teams allow for Four, but everything dies even before I switch to the fourth character, so it's only for bosses without invulnerability phases.
National is actually pretty bad in this regard (comperatively). There are much-much better teams, namely quickbloom - nobody believed me in TC discords when Cyno came out and quickbloom-Raiden tests started. Most TCs are keeping their heads in the sand.
i think there's some confusion between DPS and hypercarry maybe
Great video and I would put Navia higher as well. I think the fact thet you can play so much different characters with her and she still good is a very good thing. Yeah, the weapen stuff is annoying, but you can just craft the Fontaine weapen and build teams around it.
TBH unnecessary "Debate", TGS's video was concise and precise already. The entire conversation was kinda cringe imo
This was hard to watch, honestly. You invite another creator onto your stream to discuss their tier list. Can’t think of a more daunting prospect to begin with, yet TGS does it. And you do not much more than challenge every single one of his choices (knowing very well that there is no such thing as an objective tier list, there are too many factors and considerations), while laughing and joking with your chat. How nice it would have been if you two would have had a good discussion and come to a joint point of view, instead of you trying to ‘get’ him at every turn. At times it almost felt like a roast. Also, you talked at least twice as much as him. Not a good look it you invite someone into your space. I’ve always liked you in your content, but here you came across as very unsympathetic and sometimes plain rude. And before anyone calls me a TGS fan boy, I have no particular opinion about him either way, I don’t enjoy his content more than Jamie’s.
The thing that frustrates me about the “f2p” dialogue is how people constantly equate f2p as either being “new” “casual “ or “bad at the game “
You don’t just stop being f2p after playing for a year, and it’s incredibly realistic for a f2p player to have 5+ five star characters and a few R5 four star weapons after a year of playing. Also having good artifacs has nothing to do with being f2p or not.
I’d love to see this kind of discussion more focused on the long term growth of a f2p account rather than assuming like “best two 5 stars to speed run a first abyss clear “
Also we all know 4 star characters can be as strong as 5 stars but nobody actually likes being told “just play xaingling “ when their question is about which 5 star on fielder to get.
I think a lot of Jamies’ arguments would have made more sense if the tierlist was “most primogem efficient 5 stars for new players “
thats a fair point, however the issue with that is there is nothing that stops f2p players from pulling strong C1s or C2s and signature weapons either that are the bigger upgrades than small teammate differences. But that would also make this tier list concept fall apart too. In fact thats exactly what i do in genshin, hsr, and wuwa. Ultimately, this is just a video concept TGS decided to do with his own parameters on what he considers "F2P" for this video idea. Just like I prefered to look at it for new players looking to get 36 star as those are the types of people who I believe are most likely to click a "top 5 star for f2p" titled video looking for help. its all subjective.
@@jamiekb9v agreed, allowing cons or signature weapons would definitely be reasonable for f2p who are planning out their pulls well in advance. I feel like that kind of long term budgeting/account planning doesn’t get talked about enough.
TGS 11- Jamie 0. Absolute classic
Most of my bros using neuvy hypercarry and nilou bloom for abyss 😭 btw love this long type content tho
If you compare with Xiangling teams yeah, Hu Tao is unviable for the same reason as Wriotheseley. But if someone put a watergun to your head and asked you to only use 5* hypercarty teams, would Hu Tao make the top 10?
I don't have her, I don't play her, I don't mind her being number 5 cause the specific order doesn't matter as much as what you already have on your account imo. As long as Neuvu Archie are top 3 😂
My Dehya C2 acts as my Neuv's C1.
Y'all indeed got smashed by spain.
My fav CCs collaborating and start it off talking soccer. This is peak. Also Allez les bleus 🇫🇷 congrats to Spain 🇪🇸 tho they were the best team the entire tourney
TGS-5
Jamie - 2
agree (for the most part) - 2 (nev and nilou)
draw - 1 (childe)
Ngl I couldn't make it past the first part of the video.
Already saw TGS's video so I knew what his list was going to be. But the discussion here didn't provide much imo. Also some of the takes seemed kinda...pointless?
For example, questioning "is it unwise to pull on the weapon banner?". Most if not all viewers on a TC's 1 hour content video will be aware that the weapon banner is a scam and thus doesn't need an explanation. There was also the "main DPS" discussion - namely for Wrio. If Wrio is doing 40% of the dmg for a given team, then he's the main DPS (why there was an argument on this...idk lol). Trying to dig into semantics or "feels" crafting distorts the usefulness of the discussion and just doesn't provide anything.
Also, the parameters of rating a given character should be upheld throughout the discussion - which in this case are the assumptions TGS set in his video. Referring to a couple points brought up such as "improving a team by replacing with a 4 star" (though this was addressed but shouldn't have happened) or too much emphasis on "ability to full star clear abyss". Kinda gave an arguing for the sake of arguing vibe.
TL:DR Small gap of expectations vs reality for me personally. Discussion was more content based than necessarily TC based.
P.S. Navia should be top 5 minimal fr fr
i also got my first 36 star with raiden.. if alhaittam as a hyperbloom driver gets to be in top 3 then raiden should easily be number 2 if not 1. raiden is just so smooth. easy to build. most resin efficient artifact. and she makes the team happen.
Navia has a new F2P weapon in natlan and it’s huge
1:16:29 was so funny🤣 Good video ♥
we want more tc pvp YEP
I smell some huge Nilou bias already
To be fair, she is pretty good for F2P investment. Collei is one of the best characters in Nilou teams, and she's completely free and only gets better with constellations. Nahida is the best character in the game, so she should be prioritized. And then the final slot can be Barbara, who is also free, and you're fine.
@@stylerxo3654Yea u pull a singular Nilou and you already have a relatively strong team in the context of having bare investment (Barbara, Collei, DMC, all free units) due to the nature of how the transformative Dendro reactions are
Nilou's very high ceiling helps her a lot in a strict f2p tier list, combined with how u can just "spam skills" but still having a lot of room for skill expression if relevant makes her potent under TGS' conditions imo
@@yoda5358 and the team can be flexible to build for specific chambers, too. If it's a mix between AOE and ST, you can pull Alhaitham and swap the team around, Xingqiu as the second Hydro and YaoYao as the second Dendro. There's also Kinich coming soon, and he's said to be a Bloom DPS, which immediately makes me think Nilou.
I think the record speedrun of genshin (starting the game to clearing abyss 12) was done by nilou. He beat the game f2p in 5 days
@@willpickering5829 Yes because she is an absurd character who has an entire f2p team that is uncontested by other teams as opposed to vying for xiangling, xingqiu or bennett or even a swirler.
At 42:00, do you think arle or any other dps mentioned in this video is any better at surviving here than hutao?(talking about cryo aura and one shot potential).
Why do ccs always feel like they need to trash talk hu tao? She's one of the best single target dps in the game!The argument always is how hard she is to play...like how hard is to press jump!?
Also, full 5 star team is one of the options.. I paly her with furina xingqiu charlotte and she does fine even with my terrible build.
As a cc you should realise that the same arguments against her can be made against every onfield dps.
If this is the case then I'd argue that neuvilette is the most shit chr to play with out a shileder because with hutao atleast im not losing my dps for 10 sec if i get knocked out of my chagerd atk unlike neuviltte.(I can't even remember the no of time this happend to me just today in the abyss12 1 2)
I know neuvilette is better than most dps chrs in game but still the point is very vaild and i never hear any one say hes a bad chr because of this one issue..
Some how this concerns every ccs only when it comes to hutao's case
Do you think an avg player who is not skilled enough to paly hu tao cancels can play arrlechino without a shileder and not die within 5 secs against some one like kenki??!
Literally, it’s such a stupid argument ppl still make to this day and idk why, tge if the average person according to these CCs can’t do a simple fucking jump
Cancel, how are they expected to play arlecchino without a zhongli
@@jsk1429people way overestimate how hard it is to play arle, like it's so incredibly easy to stay alive as her since you're basically always at full stamina, just needing to spam autos also gives you way more brain power to divert to attack patterns
@@pioneershark2230I own all the above mentioned 5 stars..
Regardless of what any tc/cc says, either they're all shit to play without a shileder or they're all good to play...(totally depends on you skill.. if u need a shielder for hu tao then u need a shielder for neuvilette/arle as well)
No single chr is objectively better at survival than others, except maybe kokomi onfiled
This is just a misconception spread by some TCs/CCs form ealry on in the game
@@Floppyturtle-rt1jwneuv is for sure but aside from that I agree. I play lyney and I don't need or want a shield. Well ganyu on the other hand is actually impossible imo. Unless you're that good. She doesn't rely on burst and e like lyney but regardless people overestimate shields. But it's fair ig.
I'd consider nahida more of a support than DPS. Yes the team is built around her but she's more of enabling seed generation than actually doing the damage. Its the same as saying yelan is the dps in hutao teams or xiangling is the dps in neuv teams. Its a different case to nilou where she basically works like xian yun. Xian yun is kinda the main character providing the damage in those teams the same way nilou is providing them super blooms. In that way these 2 units can be considered the DPS in the team compare to nahida. Nahida functions more like an enabler, the hyperbloom reaction doesnt change just by adding her. If anyone's doing the DPS in that team its kuki/raiden. Why not just mention them instead and focus on their nahida teams.
Wriothesely does do the most damage in all of his teams, bith MeltVape and Freeze. I feel like Jamie just doesnt have the experience with Wriothesely to understand his comps.
Wriothesely will also be doing the most damage in his Emilie variants, unlike Cyno.
Wrio-emilie team will have him as the most consistent dmg dealer.
to be fair, i've probably played wriothesley in abyss on like 15~ different accounts at this point. not saying im a wriothesley god or anything but its a good amount of experience with many account situations and levels of investment
Wrio does the most as a single character in his teams, but in a comp like Yelan+Furina, they do the majority of the team dmg combined.
Compare this to Navia, who is actually 70%+ of the team dmg by herself.
I agree with Jamie in the idea that a main DPS should be at least like 55%+ of the team's dmg on their own. Because if they aren't the majority of the total team DPS, can they be considered "main"?
But TGS is not using that as his criteria, which I think they should've clarified for each other at the start.
@@xanaviiihave you heard about the concept of ‘drivers’?
@@Yelan-n8d yes, and in my opinion, drivers are not main DPS. Because they are driving the reactions for the other team members to do majority dmg.
TGS clearly thinks differently, and that's fine.
But that's why I would've ordered this list differently.
Kuki hyperbloom without nahida still deals way lota dmg... Yes nahida does make a huge difference but all hyperbloom needs is c2 kuki hydro and a good dendro applier ( that we don't have many except for nahida, alhaitham) but still it's not nahida who is contributing in the main dmg its the 1000 em kuki..she is only applying lots of dendro...
ENGLAND LOST THE EUROS
Nahida is a support/sub dps not main. Ofc you can build her as main like many characters but let’s be fr about her main role
53:48 yeah in pretty much every Fontaine abyss it's been like. Nope, can't play nilou there cuz that
And even when she could, and now this is going away from nilou. You couldn't play the kokomi variant, the hypothetical “best” variant cuz you needed hydro damage to deal with dendro Specters or like alhaitham damage to deal with more single target
So people that glaze kokomi for being so good with nilou, she's often the first character to go when things aren't optimal. She isn't an optimal S tier support, stop the cope
Alhaitham, especially for a newer F2P player, is not even in top 10 dps I would recommend. How is he above Arle is a mystery for me, and generally, I never understood the hype about him (I have him). Clunky character with a clunky team.
Skill issue I must say, you're just salt because spread cant deal damage like how vape and melt deals damage because they're a multiplier while spread is additive dmg.
Me as alhaitham main without sigmature weapin and only relying to harbinger is dawn. 36 star was easy for me and I had no problems during runs, I had alhaitham first and he's the reason why I pulled for nahida (bcuz I skipped her release) doing abyss without nahida was still got but yeah nahida was an upgrade tbh, but it doesnt mean that you really need her because there are so many alternatives
And I dont rely on hyperblooms dmg honestly, my kuki's on instructor and r5 sapwood blade
My alhaitham's deals 70k per spread with harbinger of dawn and nahida cant deal that amount of dmg on dual hydro hyoerbloom.
And yeah I tested nahida onfield hypebloom and its clunky as hell for me.
How a Dendro can be above a Pyro, will always be a mystery to me aswell
LMAO Haitham at 2 is such a Glaze.
"You can replace Wriothesley with a 4 star"
Stabbing me straight through the heart, Jamie
i spent a lot of this video saying my mains are not that good either don't worry 😭
I slightly disagree with TGS on Navia. I think she feels great for F2P level of investment.
The problem is that it is very difficult for everyone to give a non-bias opinion or give the accurate ranking since everyone experiences thing differently. for context, I have C1 Navia with high stat volume artifacts + R5 SS on my account and I can easily one rotate most ST boss but when I play C0 Navia with bare minimum artifacts + R5 Tidal on my friend’s account. yeah, it feels worse to me but when I did the excel calc or the gcsim. the damage isn’t bad at all despite it feeling worse. that’s what I meant about bias.
Also, I’m glad that Raiden made it to the list. I think she get too much hate. I believe it stems from the fact that people were salty about C2 Raiden being way too strong compared to C0. It was indeed a very disgusting business practice and I won’t argue but that doesn’t invalidate Raiden at C0 by any mean.
Yeah spain smashed its coming home
Average DPS does 600-800k per rotation. My F2P DPS-Nahida does that while being off-field, like 69k procs (without Furina). She deserves #1 place as she's the best pick with bad artifacts for hyperbloom and she's also the best pick with cracked artifact set for a dps-role. But she was advertised as OP with just BS arts, which people did put on her afterall.
Same goes for Navia and her "bad-in-AoE" label - it's a TC mistake on release which got spread. 1/2 of her skill damage is set in stone and only other half is counted by stacks. More enemies = more damage. Simple math.
PLS make post-releases after a month since release at minimum. Let the rushed money-making "guides" be flawed - doesn't matter. But ffs make things right, better late than never.
Like you main-ing Clorinde in overload - that's a rare situation considering what has been told in "guides"
Bruh u have to be trolling. I have not seen any off field dps do over 500k C0R1.
@@putent9623 I did not talk about offfielders DPS, I told that Nahida with good arts does this much offfield
Am I crazy or did Zhongli became more valuable than Kazuha recently?
Yes You are crazy
Crazy
nilou is sooo easy to build, i just got her on her rerun, im telling you, it took me like 10 minutes, i strongboxed some stuff into tenacity for 20% HP, i got 2 pc wanderers, and since hp is soo easy to roll i was just getting HP after HP, HP main stats out of nowhere, before that i had NO HP pieces other than from healing bonus set now i have 62K HP (level 80 still can be MILES better, and i got her P2W weapon, thats the reason of why i pulled i was like "if i get nilou it would be really really cool, she's a strong dps, i got C1 baizhu, i got C1 furina I AM NOT A WHALE I JUST GOT LUCKY I SWEARR im not whaling on this game LMAO, i got furina with festering desire, so nilou would be a GREAT addition).
in conclusion this character is busted at lvl 50 i was melting bosses, which is where she works the worst imagine a pack of enemies
Its such a pointless video to make "top main DPSes for a F2P player". The whole point of a video like this is to tell F2P players the best way to allocate primogems and to not include Nahida on a list like that is dumb. Locking away characters into arbitrary categories is pointless.
Like they said DPS isn't the one necessarily the most damage or the one enabling them to make the most damage but the character you build your team "around", and lets be real here NOBODY builds their team around nahida or bennet. There are arguments for Furina since she is pretty much capable of being a DPS herself. (Having a Nahida onfield dps SUCKS due to little nuances regarding her loli model being extremly bad for driving teams)
Rare Jamie W with this one.
Dude "pull value" is duch a garbage metric to judge characters, like it's only relevant if you're trying to get your first 36* clear, in which case Nilou would probably be the best 5* unit in the game, and that is not the consensus as far as I'm aware.
I think Alhaitham's placement is justified for the criteria of this list, you yourself admit that nahida hb archetype deserves to be top 2, however nahida is not a "main dps" while Alhaitham is, and he is factually the ceiling of nahida's hb teams, justifying his position.
You don't need Alhaitham to make a good hb team but that doesn't make him any less strong in a vacuum.
Another thing about pull value is that it assumes all 5*s are available at all times. if your sole goal is to 36* as soon as possible, you might just have to pull any characters currently on banner even if they're suboptimal.
Nilou can either be one of the worsts or one of the best depending on the lineup. If you actually look at the 4.5/4.6/4.7/4.8 abyss lineups, Nilou is actually barely viable there. That's 4 lineups in a row where Nilou is barely viable/not competitive.
how do you get eligeble for the viewers abyss? cause im stuck on my alt and idk if its just me having a huge skill issue rn or the teams arent teaming
you just watch the stream and follow the instructions for joining the queue!
Are Nahida and nilou dps, by definition,a dps is a damage dealer that has good personal damage , one is a sub dps that doesnt deal any form of significant damage without hyperbloom, the other is more of an enabler than a dps so what are they even doing on this list, both have very meager contribution to the damage of their teams. Hyperbloom is the only thing that is making Nahida here her personal damage is not on par with any dps here and as for nilou, her passive is the one dealing damage her personal damage is zero in her teams so why is she here, if we are putting Nahida here that means Baizhu or any dendro applicator can be featured here as well as hyperbloom is the one contributing damage in the team as the average hyperbloom teams dps is higher than the dps of a lot of f2p dpses on this list
As for nilou she is an enabler she cannot be a dps in the team, she is just an enabler that opens up a new playstyle like xianyun why is she on this list her personal damage when played optimally is non existent
Like Nahida and nilou are carried solely by reactions, though other characters her are carried by reactions like hutao, writhsley etc, they all contribute to the damage directly to the team
Nilou and Nahida literally rely on reactions to do something, their personal damage is insignificant in a team
The best topic where Nahida and nilou would fit in is best f2p teams in genshin
Like if you make a damage contribution chart like for the other dps, you would see that their damage cannot be measured in percent except Nahida and even then she is dealing insignificant damage in the team
By definition, nilou and Nahida cannot be dps they cannot be here, they should have been replaced by Lyney and Yae miko
Also more to the argument is that a typical dps has a rotation whether it is as simple as neuvillette’s or as hard to execute as hutao’s, and the rotation must be followed if not their team dps would fall no matter how simple it is
As for Nahida and nilou, their teams can dish out very good damage without following any rotation of sorts like you can start with any character and end a rotation with any character in the teams and the teams dps would not fall of
Unlike characters like hutao or neuvillette who have to comply to a setup if not the damage of the team would fall off. So nilou and Nahida don’t fit the bill to qualify as a dpses in the team
45:00 ???? Bros acting like hutao hasn’t been the 2nd best character until chars like arle. Neuvilliette etc came out
Honestly I would take lyney over hu tao. Not even talking C6 where hu tao is almost a nobody. But C0 I'm taking lyney C1 ill give hu tao but anything C2 and above is back to lyney.
@@putent9623 hutao constellations are asssss, except for c1 but even at c0 hutao is better than lyney idk why anyone would even argue this
@@jsk1429I've never seen C0 Hu Tao being ahead of C0 Lyney in clear times, it's either a tie or quite opposite. It's usually at C1 where she starts to surpass him but that's it, and that's from low cost speedruns as well where Tao is always at C1.
Now if it's more about the middle ground, aka taking other things in factor such as comfort where shielded Tao is stronger than shielded Lyney then it is debatable.
C0 Hutao is a$$
Hutao fell off as soon as Dendro came out, Nahida and Alhaitham far better
@@Fam98KK
I have both alhaitham and hu tao C0 , hu tao is much much better , alhaitham is really overrated , also if you don't have kuki C2 , nahida and xingqiu C6 , don't even bother rolling for him lol
i have Childe on one of my alt accounts. Should I farm for Emblem and Hod in strongbox, or should i skipp Strongbox and go full on nymph?
Farm emblem for Xiangling unless you already have a good set
Tartaglia can use lots of sets, I wouldn’t recommend heart of depth because 4pc is BARELY better than 2pc 2pc combos and doesn’t buff his burst (which is more important imo) you can get away with 2pc atk, hydro, em, noblese; heck even 2pc emblem if you don’t have any er and you’re struggling to get your burst back
I even heard argument for 4pc emblem but I don’t know much about it so take it with grain of salt
1:07:15 in the presumption they already have nahida furina yelan kazuha and characters like that
Obviously you pull all of them before pretty much any DPS except neuvillette and Arlachino. So the discussion is what do you do afterwards
If you're pulling alhaitham before nahida you're kinda stupid but if you're pulling pretty much anyone before nahida you're kinda throwing
I would say except just neuvillette. Because arlechinno is dependant on bennett and ofc skill
45:45 yeah man, cryo only affects your plunges right
wriothesley was one of my first 5 star characters and... he... is not good, at c0. I have top 100 build on akasha and his best teams other than shenhe and he never feels like he's doing anything.
43:27 this is all so much cope. Her damage is very visibly very high and there shouldn't even be a discussion about it
And in terms of convo execution. Man if you pull Hu Tao as you dps, you'll learn to charge cancel in two days of pulling her cuz it's not that hard, you just need to commit to it once
Problem with your HT take is that there's a multitude of other characters, making it a problem if you're not almost exclusively a HT main.
If you're not, then having to "re-learn" the timings on her cancels every time you pick her up is a clear disadvantage.
My copy pasta of hu tao team dmg contribution. She is in the same boat as alhaitham and wriothesley lmaoo
Hu tao dmg contribution at C0(okay so initially I was gonna do realistic 4 star weapons like dragons bane r1 or r3 but all the calcs I saw were primarily fjords followed by death match. So just assume all are BP weapon for C0 hu tao and support are C0 R0 except 4stars who are C6)
Furina, bennet and xiangling (BP weapon hu tao) - 40%
Furina, baizhu and yelan (BP weapon hu tao) - 48%
xianyun, furina and xingqui - 60%
xianyun, furina and yelan - 54%
sucrose, yelana and bennet - 82%
Zhongli, chiori and yelan - 43%
Yelan, furina/xingqui and zhongli - 45%/44% respectively
Chevreuse, bennet and fischl - 53%
Furina, bennet and yelan - 59%
On average hu tao team contribution is round up to 53% vs wrio who is round up to 59%
Mind you wrio only used widsith in all of them. Hu tao used fjords in most or deathmatch. And I indiscriminately used teams for wrio, didn't matter how random. For hu tao I skipped teams with 2 sub dps that didn't buff hu tao at all, becaus if hu tao was already doing the minority of the team dps in teams where she is getting buffed by the sub dps, imagine what she would look like with 2 sub dps not buffing her at all. It wiuld make her average even lower. My inference from this is that wriotheslet and hu tao have very similar dmg contributions to their teams for C0.
Jump cancels at C0 are done to prevent her damage from plummeting and turning her worse than average DPS in the game. Jamie said it himself, he cleared 36* on viewer accounts because he stopped using Hu Tao. I did my jump cancels, I saw jstern tried doing viewer acc run with C0 Hu Tao as well. It's all the same. They did good runs because they had C1 Hu Tao with high investment supports. She isn't doing better than average DPS at C0 without the plunge team, and not optimizing her ruins her performance
@@xendell154 just to be clear, we are given yelan furina jean for the Hu Tao team. Of Bennet yelan kazuha.
Which is things you won't see on scuffed accounts. Which is not what the premise of this video is.
Wriosley is disablee char without c1
Navia and Wriothesley arent even in top 10.
I think Hu Tao is amazing. She always clear the dorito, magu kenki etc. faster than all my other DPS and I use her at C0. People say she’s worse at C0 because she’s hard, but I honestly don’t think she’s that hard at all. Clicking and jumping is a Genshin characters definition of hard because half the characters in this game just require oonga boonga button mashing.
TGS is not guilty 😁 I don't agree with everything but nobody plays hypercarries only
Disagreement is guaranteed
You got demolished as TGS said 😂
9:39 well you could use furina with Bennet xiangling, help distribute damage and give navia a buff. Which also makes her er a little higher, allowing sac great sword to shine
ah yes, bruteforce a problem to bruteforce a weapon to ideality
At first I was like where is Furina, because list starts with on-field drivers/enablers for Xiangling, and Furina can do that and more right from off-field too.
This list even nave Nilou, she is a off-field bloom buffer! Chevreuse, kuki, Nahida, Furina is not on list?
I don't get it.
This list needs to be split between actual high DPS that need certain support, vs driver/enablers that makes strong comps posible imo
Regardless Nilou should be included to represent bloom team type. IMO it's not comparable to Chevreuse since overload teams can still exist without her through viable alternatives (anemo synergy), while bloom without Nilou is a meme.
@@theburin Furina cannot drive Xiangling on her own lmao. Her hydro application is absolute dogshit for Xiangling.
What are your thoughts on using sigewinne in a klee furina team over bennett to buff furina further via hydro resonance and sigewinnes passive?
100 virgin Arlecchino simps vs that one chad Alhaitam enjoyer in the chat.