Can We Learn Lessons From Wigan?
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- The plan for Wigan was supposed to change the churches there, and it did for all the wrong reasons!
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If the church focuses on Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ first, everything else will fall into place. Thank you for sharing. God bless you and yours 🙏
lol, nope, it's too late, should have stayed away from gays, abortions, trans, and just had your silly little prayer groups inside the empty tomb, trying to force religion on the real world was always doomed, there's a reason church is only one day a week - no one would go if it weren't for hell. and it's dawning on people hell is another made up doodad.
I do wonder where the idea came from that there would be enough laity and retired clergy to keep these churches going.
I wonder if the laity and retired clergy actually want to be committed to week-in week-out service - what did retirement mean for them?
I can see that, if a church has no clergy then the laity may feel like withdrawing funds - who pays for goods/services they are not getting?
Another common feeling I have heard is that the Church has loads of money - I've always answered this as being building rich but cash poor - but when money can be found for (unnecessary IMO) reparation, etc I can see why folk think it doesn't add up.
Surely better to find money for more clergy above all else? Without a shepherd the flock will scatter - or never be gathered in, in the first place.
This reminds me of the Joni Mitchell song ‘Big Yellow Taxi’. “They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.” The line about they wanted communion and were offered handicrafts is heartbreaking.
Asked for bread and were given a stone, as Our Lord said
don't you think it's strange that god isn't drowning people, isn't that the go to solution?
@@HarryNicNicholas No, it's not.
That was the whole premise and genius of the parish system which meant that every part of the country had a parish priest. Jesus mets people’s needs first but now clergy seem to be in meetings rather than being pastoral. Plus they turned away people who went forward for ordination and now they are training laity?! As someone else has mentioned. Preach the gospel, look after people, respect traditions and you can still make it relevant because it is. It’s been relevant for 2000 years.
OUR traditional service at 8am each Sunday is growing as we the mature congregation enjoy the traditional liturgy. The 10am service is far more focussed on families and children and that’s growing also. Services should be focussed on their specific audience. 🇦🇺🇦🇺
I agree. A church should have a good database of their congregation not just for contact info but the ages of the people. That way one knows who your target audience is and how and what to preach to that age group in general. IMO, more emphases should be put on homiletics training for the clergy.
"Services" should be focused on God
This is sooooo true.
The Sunday service is to please our Lord God, not to please human.
I'm directly affected by one of these 'experiments' here in Cornwall. Unbelievably, at no time has anyone involved questioned why some parish churches have been failing, or elucidated what a successful parish church looks like and what things are necessary to achieve that kind of success.
Even the most basic practical matters of common sense were not addressed when the radical changes were happening. For example, our group of 13 churches is now led by two women despite there being a marked absence of men in the congregations. I've absolutely nothing against women, but even my own ordained sister has said that's not a sensible decision. I've not heard of any serious attempt to investigate what has been happening in each church and make specific plans to help each church return to growth.
My vision would be parish ministry where the vicar lives alongside the people in the parish, is committed for around a decade at least, spiritually vibrant and a person of prayer, (definitely not woke - wokism is founded on atheism, but that's another issue!), faithful, and definitely knows how to preach the gospel and teach from the whole of the Bible.
"If your church has a woman pastor, you have neither a pastor nor a church!" - John F. MacArthur.
Is there a study of how women lead parishes and men led parishes compare? Growth, happiness of parishioners, spiritual depth, vision,.... would be interesting. Men and women just approach things differently, according to how God has created them....
@@hamsterbox4732These are my thoughts too. If such a study has been done, I've not heard about it. But the C of E is plainly captured by feminism (which was the first stage of entry for the full atheistic ideology of cultural Marxism which has now captured much of the C of E) and whether or not a few women are able to buck the trend, there's no denying the damaging results overall.
It would be interesting to hear a comment from the Apostle Paul on our present situation!@@simeonyves5940
@@donbenson9381 I am not looking to judge, but if gifts are different, may be these gifts are complementary put together, rather than played out against each other. Men and women should not be in competition about who is better, but complementary to achieve set goals: Grow your church, feed your sheep!
If its the brainchild of Welby its bound to fail. Wigan deserves better. They have great rugby teams. Cheers Dan.
I was chatting to somebody about this and the fact that vicars/ministers seem to be more and more church managers, the pastoral side inside and outside the church seems to be getting a bit lost. Jesus walked with his disciples, he did not manage them all from home and asked for updates….
In my local church we no longer have a choir or bell ringing before services…I rarely go…we also share our vicar…I live near Truro
At the church I joined 3 years ago, we did both. They planted a new service (aimed for students) and revitalised the morning traditional service, and worked well, and the church is growing. However, different from these other churches, we have 1 vicar and 1 curate for the whole church.
No vicars or curates in my King James Bible. If you ever get trully saved and begin to understand and obey the Pure and Preserved word of Almighty God ( King James Bible ) you should know that temple worship and the priesthood was abolished by the Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary ( Hebrews 7, 8 & 9 ) Your church buildings and procedures are found nowhere in my King James Bible New Testament.
2 questions for you :
Have you any idea where the evil Christ denying modern bibles ( post 1881 ) come from ?
Do you know where that vile blasphemous term ' vicar ' comes from ?
Going to ' church ' isn't Christian doctrine or practice.
But ‘being Church’ is and it’s such a privilege to work with those who love the Lord Jesus in helping others to discover the same. Where there is unity, the Lord commands a blessing 😁 Amen
enjoy it while you can.
Surely they would want to fund successful churches and learn from them. Not starve them of resources.
The combination of "Close down existing churches" and "fresh expressions in village halls" sounds like asset stripping to me. It's as if the ABC is business man from a corporate background.
I think a more businesslike approach could really help the church. A ruthless focus on growing the customer base (congregation) by meeting their needs (spiritual and otherwise) at a sustainable cost. Offer different brands (high church, messy church etc) to different customer segments (older, younger) in order to better meet their needs. Nationally coordinated marketing (missionary) plans plus locally tailored campaigns. Consider a franchise model alongside centralised delivery. Try lots of different approaches. All while keeping Christ at the centre of it all.
@@benh715 [sorry, a bit long!]
It’s a logical argument but I think Welby was chosen almost entirely because he was that businessman, as they were thinking along the same lines. Welby has been nothing short of a disaster. The trouble with the corporate view is firstly they seldom see a falling footfall as solely something to fix by rectifying that; they look at the resources and assets and are just as happy selling off or closing a problematic business division as they are fixing it. Secondly, it fails to model how a spirit filled community works. Such a community really is quite different to an H&M outlet or Tesco Express. Hiring new-build community halls just wreaks of a business trying to lower fixed overhead costs, not a congregation reaching out to engage with a community. If a church doesn’t have a genuine home it withers away, every time.
How about choosing the ministering guy who has a track record of growing congregations? Did Selby do this Southam? (genuine question, I have no idea). What exactly was his success in the church that fast tracked him to the top job?
"Offer different brands (high church, messy church etc) to different customer segments".
Exactly - but what you are doing here is using a little business speak to describe community engagement, not corporatism. A church needs a minister, and that minister needs to be employed full time in that community. Respect to the vicars who have two or three churches to look after, its huge undertaking but its done at the expense of community outreach.
My previous church (that was Baptist btw) was a great example. They were basically down to a regular congregation of 4 or 5 elderly ladies with no minister, no music, no children's groups, etc. They knew their church was on its lasts legs and about to be closed so they basically said "okay, last throw of the dice", had a bit of whip round between them and a little help from the Baptist Union, and funded a junior minister for two year. He moved into the manse with his young family and immediately set about knocking on doors on the estate, stuck his foot in the door of the local schools, etc. Within two years we had a regular congregation of about 150 across two Sunday services, messy church, a band, regular baptisms, midweek services, two fulltime staff members (trainees), and a church extension project. We even absorbed a local Congolese church(!) (it became a very eclectic congregation! Everybody loved it though). I hear the minister has since moved on to a new church, and my old church has now been without a minister for a couple of years. The congregation is again falling back as church community interaction falls. The two are directly proportional IMO, two or three dozen regularly attend there I think now.
Our current church has seen something a little similar. A decent sized CofE, congregation of around 300 in the morning service, the evening service was growing healthily, approaching 100 (was around 30-ish when we first started going). Our vicar (sort of) "retired" recently, the recruitment process was so long and drawn out to replace him (over a year, plenty of applicants) the congregation just drifted away. I did ask one of the associate ministers why the CofE moves so slowly, she said it was partly because the church feels it's helpful for the new minister to start without any influence from the era of the previous minister. Sorry, but that’s just insane!! That has no mapping to the business world. Perhaps, if the last vicar was leaving under a dreadful cloud(!) I get the argument to take a breath but if the outgoing vicar is successful and the new minister is relatively junior there is a much stronger argument to run the two in parallel, not leaving a void of over a year! Now the guy is faced with "welcome to your new post, first job is to find out why we've lost a third of our congregation this year and go replenish it. No pressure!". It was all completely avoidable.
So, no, the CofE is not a corporate, in fact Welby and his bishops adopting a corporate managed-decline asset management view of the church is one of the churches biggest problems. A church is a local congregation of Jesus followers getting out into their community, getting to know people, and engaging with people. People are actually really hungry for this. The higher church leadership starving local congregations of resources is the issue. A parish is the sum of the congregations, a diocese is the sum of those Parishes. Localism not corporatism is the answer, and it’s the job of the bishops to enable those local congregations are properly resourced to get out there and do their thing.
Our Derbyshire parish was coerced into a 4-parish Minster several years ago.
Some PCCs had a vote, our "vicar" didn't offer a vote, just told us what was going to happen. At no point was the congregation given full disclosure of what was happening. I spoke up at an AGM, but was ignored, or, worse, an attempt at making me look stupid was attempted.
That person is now preaching climate nonsense to an average, aging, congregation of 10.
Many of us left, or simply never went back after the place reopened.
There's 1 full-time vicar in the minster (so bossy he's nicknamed "bishop ****") 2 part time, and the others either laity or non-stipend volunteers.
At any one time either 1 or 2 of the 3 paid clergy are not available.
It's madness.
It’s about contact with and care of people - those already part of the church and those seeking a haven in the midst of challenging times. Pastoral care has been sacrificed for ‘blue sky thinking’ as in worldly management structures? I believe in change and letting go of patently unworkable situations but such drastic cutting leaves people bereft of care and discipleship
It is no surprise that the house church movement is thriving. I love my church but if it was closed I would still find somewhere to worship.
There are many problems. I saw the recent Diocese of Portsmouth magazine and of six clergy ordinations there were 5 middle aged women and one younger man. The feminization of the church will not attract younger men - and even older men.
It will not attract a Bible Believing Christian. Women Preachers are *Unbiblical* and a Sure Fire sign of *Apostasy* as they are *utter Defiance* against God!
Is it really the model, or rather the heart that's amiss? CofE needs "new models" like a hole in the head. What's needed is a fresh outpouring of Holy Spirit!!!!!!!!!
A few years ago, Archdeacon Bob Jackson highlighted the difference between a 'bright idea' and a 'good idea'. A good idea is one which can be shown, by careful research backed by solid statistics, to actually work in practice. A bright idea may turn out to be a good idea - but most don't, so don't burn any boats until the evidence is clear.
I was a Bishop's Council member in a diocese looking at embracing this new style of working now being pushed. I piped up and said 'This sounds great! Can we go and visit somewhere where it is already in action, and learn from their experience?' The Bishop never spoke to me again.
Why is the Church of England addicted to 'bright ideas'?
If the church doesn’t have enough money to pay for Clergy, they should get paid secular jobs. St.Paul was a tent maker, by trade. He worked when he was Pastor of a very poor church. Biblical answer to a Biblical problem. Wonder what ABC would do if he had to work for a living.
Thanks for this Rev Dan. I wish I could play your video at our next PCC. I’m struggling to get our older congregants to understand the threat we are facing. I’m an STP supporter but why aren’t we ALL, including the bishops, fighting for church unity and real growth? I don’t want a schism but it’s already happened and I’m afraid that our little Norman church will never see a stipendiary minister again. How long can we depend on retired clergy? I’m concerned that some of them will never get to enjoy their retirement properly. And the church itself means something to many those who have yet to come to Jesus. Will it be allowed to crumble away? Or just as sadly, be sold off as a nice conversion project?
you can't win, it's too late, should have stuck to prayer and hymns, trying to make people align with the sky daddy was doomed to fail, even christians don't want religion.
Yup, Dan doesn't miss a beat
Fun fact: Did you know 85% of the anglican communion lives in the global south?
The Church of England as represented by our Archbishops and most (not all!) of our bishops has completely lost the plot. For The Plot see The Bible. God is love, yes, but Jesus is Lord. This is beyond depressing but thank God there are still pockets of salt and light in this country. We must beware of losing our savour and just conforming to the world around, no good to anybody. Thank you for your channel.
@@elainehill8517 "conditional security" is an Arminian Teaching, Confirmed and Condemned as *Damnable Heresy* by the 1619 Canons of Dort. Those who fall away were *never* Saved in the First Place, 1st John makes that Clear as the Grave! Please, Repent of it and Believe the Gospel, which *Clearly* reveals in the 6th and 10th Chapters of the Gospel of John, that the Sheep *Cannot* lose their Salvation!
@@elainehill8517 Liberals use love to determine what scripture means, conservatives use scripture to determine what love means. Both sides would agree with that statement. That's the problem.
I'd err on the side of liberalism. for a lot of conservatives, jesus is still on the cross.
If it's new, funky and innovative it'll work, won't it???
I wonder whether you have figures for Blackburn Diocese where the bishops are planning not to decrease the number of clergy but to invigorate parishes and put more into local mission
I was a reader in Wigan when they initiated 'transforming Wigan' unfortunately it has destroyed what was a thriving christian community. They ignored the pleas of the established congregations, instead focussing on becoming all things to all people. 'Fresh expressions,' it wasnt so much about gaining new disciples and inclusivity, as getting the coffers in. Which has totally backfired.
Also relying on the laity to take on the responsibility of the clergy, many of whom have not been 'called ' to do so. The C of E is business minded not spiritually minded its dying 'Ichabod' the glory/ Holy Spirit has departed.
Im glad I left when I did.
The pastoral relationship is everything. If folk think that a church is not interested in them they will go elsewhere or (worst scenario) stop worshipping altogether.
1 Timothy 6 v 10. "For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows." Why is the C of E so concerned about money when they should be working to make disciples first and foremost. Jesus himself said in Matthew 6:33 "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." But there again if you are not an Orthodox Bilbe-believing church then you won't follow this, will you? Chris x
Money is the root of all evil beyond my daily basics bills food ect im not interested in money it only did me harm all my life. Id happily do a church job for nothing so long as i had food and a roof over my head
In the wealthy's defense, they don't love money, they love what it buys them 🤨
Often when you try to ve something for everyone, you end us speaking for no one. I work at the university of Manchester, there is a thriving Catholic and Muslim Chaplaincy, and currently no Anglican Chaplaincy, so no Christian representation for the largest denomination at the University. That's indicative of the Anglican community as a whole.
There are plenty of examples of city churches being “re-planted”. Of course, they wouldn’t think of speaking to them or using their model…
If any company, no matter what financial dire straits they might be in or not, tried to 'streamline' their assets like this, they *will go out of business!* The Cof E has, apparently, £10 BILLION, through investment benefits, and can easily pay all their clergy, fix all their church buildings (though I feel that some can be sold), and *pay, at least as part-tine, their church officers like Churchwardens!*
If parishes, en masse, refuse to pay their parish shares, what can Lambeth Palace do? There is no legal requirement to pay it,,and it will make the AoC and House of Bishops and the General Synod sit up and take notice - would they lay off vicars, curates, deacons? A lot of them *are already* non-stipendary! And so much that goes on in a parish church is voluntary already.
So what could they do? They'd have to listen to us, spot these stupid policies like LLF, and get back to Bible basics from the top down. Maybe many more parishes could join GAFCOM, and every piece of income could go into their church, and pay their vicars, curates and church officers *directly,* and forget the C of E.
As they say, MONEY TALKS even in the Church!
I meant "...STOP these stupid policies..."
"As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be: nothing must be changed" depends on having the financial resources to keep a traditional church and the traditional style of ministry going. I expect many dioceses are not able to do this, and, consequently there is a crisis. A friend of mine who is on his diocesan synod (not Oxford) told me that the budgeted cost to the diocese concerned is now £74,000 a year. How is that going to be paid for? I can see why changes are taking place.
Hmmm.... Yes, reducing the number of clergy is likely to cause problems. But as I see it the NT offers almost the opposite solution; the NT ministry appears to involve MULTIPLE 'elders' (Presbyters/Priests) in every local church as basically a lay ministry. Not to mention that close study suggests that the episkopos/bishop is not a distinct rank in the church but actually simply a different way to describe the 'elders'.
Hear hear!!
I think that there is a need for some changes. There is a need for the laity to be more involved under the direction of the clergy. The clergy cannot do it all. Clergy need to loosen the reigns of power. The priest in the church I attend will not allow any evangelism because he can't do it. Many churches for example have laity running Alpha or Christianity Explored courses. This frees up time for the clergy to do things only they can do. Also I have seen many cases where people who have a spouse die, after the funeral, a time where they really need help are abandoned by the clergy, but not the laity.
Those with the grandiose plans to grow a church and who will not be held to account for dumb ideas will always blame others. It sounds like these plans want the church to be a social club that may mention Christ but only according to their definition. To grow a church look at those that grow. Surprise, surprise they adhere to an orthodox view of the Bible, in many cases the traditional service is what people want.
Thanks for your honest reporting Rev, though the article focuses, perhaps, too much on the negatives, which I don’t deny, to be fair.
I am blessed to be a member of one of the Wigan churches that is definitely thriving. My heart truly goes out to those affected negatively by the closures. However, I would also say that some good has come as a result of this initiative - specifically the gradual development of worship communities around such things as the likes of food pantries etc. I am involved, myself, in two of these developments.
Along with one or two others, I received a word at the beginning of the pandemic, which in my case was “Turn the churches inside out.”
To sum such developments as being ‘handicrafts’ and the like is being somewhat cynical. (Not your words I know, Rev.)
Welby has the reverse of the midas touch. Everything he touches turns to dust. What they are doing to Permission to Officiate ministry is shameful. The number of retired ministers offering themselves will soon start falling too.
@dominionphilosophy3698 I already walked away, and am looking to Join either COFEC, or the Evangelical Connexion, I Humbly and Gently Suggest you do the same. Love and Peace.
is it true the anglican church is having trouble getting insurance cos of the abuse lawsuits?
at offset=5:00 "£176M allocated to anticipate 89375 new disciples.." equates to £1969 per new person, but unclear how SDF is 'buying' such extra believers. Also "[only] 12704 witnessed to date" does not disclose how much [of this £176M budget] has actually been spent. Perhaps a significant proportion of new spending has been the establishment of new "diversity, equality and inclusion" officers and the emphasis of "social justice warriors" to appease the woke left. This is all secular vernacular, and not a scriptural edict. Time for House of Bishops to wake up from their woke sleep, and notice that 75% of all worldwide Anglican Communion members (Global South and GAFCON) are remaining firm in the Gospel narrative.
It will go the way of Fresh Expressions. Too many holes in the dam and too many foxes in the vineyard.
@dominionphilosophy3698 This isn't the muppet show you two.
To entertain such a question makes one wonder how rediculas and pointless the CoE and all of protestantism is. The fact of entertaining such a question brings to mind, 2Timothy ch4 vrs 3,4.
Can I ask rev Dan. If the church is so bad and you are not happy.. 1 why not move to the higher Anglican Church under the bishop of ebbsfleet or leave the Church of England.
Keep your Wigan
Please could you not wave your hands about all the time. It makes it hard to watch you.
Not agree. Love your explanations, Rev Dan. Here in Germany we've got the same problems and false solutions - only 2 years later.
@pfarramtseebachjohannesrei2055 Nicht Jesus in meine Plane reinhämmern sondern unser Leben nach Jesu Plänen gestalten. Leider versagt da unsere lutherische Kirche im grossen Stil und wird noch mehr Menschen verlieren. Wir sind jetzt Teil einer Freikirche in Potsdam, weil wir bisher dort keine evangelische Kirche fanden, die eine Vision zum Kirchenaufbau/Evangelisation und Jesus nachfolgen im Zentrum hat.😢.
Alles Gute Ihnen im Osten und Gottes Segen. Der Osten braucht Jesus und visionäre Gemeindeleiter, und wenn nicht innerhalb der Großkirchen, dann eben außerhalb, was ich Schade finde, denn letztlich sitzen die großen Kichen auf ner Menge Geld, und Assets, die den Freikirchen dann nicht zur Verfügung stehen.😢.