Thank you for your comment. If I would have installed this "new" oil pump with the undersized specifications, it could have lead to catastrophic failures. I'm glad I found this issue, before the entire engine assembly. Regards Andreas
Great video. Please keep posting great infomation liek this. I'm new to air cooled BMW's. I bought and repaired/rebuyilt two this pasy year. I'm a British bike guy. Been rebuilding and riding them since I was 17. 40 years ago... My dad was a heavy equiptment mechanic bak in the 50's and 60's. He taught me a lot. Biggest benefit is the critical meausring and fitting of parts. Not to just bolt on new parts assuming all is good. Mausure and replace parts only when they are worn beyond spec. Sounds like you have had similar training from a machinest or an old style mechanic.
Yes it would be hard to stretch that rotor😄 Now I just have find a solution in order to continue with the engine assembly. Thank you so much!👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽 Cheers
I am watching your channel and the restauration. It's perfect what you are doing. At the time, when these /5, /6, /7 models were built, mineral oil was very common. Mostly 20W50 in summer. BMW advised to run the engine carefully worm after starting. The gap between the outer oilpump ring and the housing is small enough that the outer ring can slide in the housing on an oil film. And, if the engine runs, you always have overpressure in the closed oil pump. So there should be no risk to run the oilpump / outer ring with these dimensions. Also for the gear box. BMW adviced to use mineral oil SAE 80 or SAE 90. I used always SAE 90. Shifting was much smoother than with SAE 80. Even in winter. Of course after carefully running the engine worm after starting. These engines were made for daily drivers. Had 5 of them. Regards and good luck from Austria.
Hello, I am aware of the gap between the outer ring of the oil pump and the engine housing. Unfortunately the original outer ring is still perfectly within the factory specifications, despite being used for 50+ years. The new “OEM” BMW outer oil pump ring, is 0.005” (0.127mm) smaller is diameter! This is straight out of the box. According to the specifications, these parts are scrap or also called (Ausschuss) in German. I am aware that certain upgrades were made over the years to specific components, but running a loose oil pump within an aluminum housing is just calling for issues. I’ve spoken with a few enthusiasts from Europe and they also told me about this issue. They ONLY use “Good-Used” oil pump rotors in their engine nowadays, because they cannot afford to install lousy quality parts…especially when working with customer engines. This issues caught my attention, because for every engine I rebuild, every internal and external measurement is documented in engine rebuild sheet. Without this data, one will never know what quality the engine has been built to. Therefore it’s important to find these small, but BIG issues before the engine goes together. I hope this gives you an insight on what to look out for in case you decide to work on the oil pump area of this engine. Grüsse aus Kanada -Andreas
@@WorkshopRebuild Danke Andreas, hoffe, dass du das richtige Teil findest. Ich meine, dass selbst das neue Teil für ausreichend Öldruck sorgen wird, trotz des geringen Untermaßes. Meine Meinung. Nochmals Danke und viel Erfolg. Tolle Arbeit. Gruß Wolfgang
How do you know it is a BMW OEM part? The original part has a notch or dot punched in the outer and inner rotor, these should face to the outside, and the notches should align. I was wondering if that is really imported. I have assembled my r90S engine, and when I checked pictures later, I saw that I didn't pay attention to that, the dots are on the inside, possibly not even aligned. I planned to disassemble the clutch, flywheel, grrrrrrr (me being angry at myself), and install the oil pump as the manual says it should be done. If anybody has any info on this? Xavier
Yes, please do! One Facebook member had showed me 4 outer rotors that he purchased and he ended up using the old one, as all new ones were not within the factory specifications. This is either the clearance between the rotors and/or the clearance between outer rotors and engine housing. Please keep me updated about your parts. It will also help others😊👍🏽
The old oil pump rotors show wear on the inside surfaces. In order to create good vacuum between both rotors, you want all inner surfaces to be extremely smooth. All dimensions are critical when it comes to the oil-pump assembly and it’s best to replace them if they are worn. This way it will last another 50+ years. Regards Andreas
Thanks for the reply, makes sense. I saw in your engine assembly build that you installed an oil pump - did you come to a conclusion about the 'new' spec from BMW? @@WorkshopRebuild
Not at all! I found a good “original” used outer rotor for the install, but the new spec does not make any sense to me. You wouldn’t make an adjustment years later, without making changes to the housing diameter. Something I have yet to figure out!
Glad you figured something out to keep moving forward at least. I've just ordered one from Bayer since mine was scored. it's described as 'Improved version with oil pocket for better lubrication when starting the engine'. it will be curious to see what the diameter is. @@WorkshopRebuild
Yes, I'm glad I found a really good outer rotor! I hope the one you will get is not undersized as well. The ones with pockets are the newer versions, but it's hard to believe someone would change the tolerance-spec after 50 years. The old one that was within my R60/5 engine was still PERFECTLY within spec on the outside diameter, but the inner surface was not good enough to reuse. This means the clearance was just fine...anything smaller will cause more problems. Please keep me updated on your findings. Cheers
Let's talk about the inner rotor orientation... My '89 R100GS has the inner rotor with a chamfer/bevel on one side. I see it isn't mentioned anywhere but Snowbum's site and he casual mentions which direction the bevel faces as if it doesn;t matter. I found this info after I already installed mine backwards so I'd rather not mess with it. Getting that oil pump cover to seal was a pain that required pulling the tranny twice, and adding some silicone sealant to the cover along with the fresh o-ring.
I haven't personally worked on the R100GS myself yet, but maybe sometime soon. Depending on the design features of the engine block, camshaft and oil pump cover, the chamfer orientation is critical. If I would have already had these parts in my hand, I could have told you which way it should be assembled. The oil pump seal (o-ring) is the same for all models from 1970-1995. If you're not getting enough squeeze on your o-ring, you might have a warped oil pump cover or an o-ring of the wrong size. If you have any other issues that you encounter, feel free to reach out at any time...but I hope you're GS doesn't cause you more issues than you've already experienced. Regards Andreas
@@WorkshopRebuild Appreciate that. The chamfer does not seem to interact with anything on the cover, or or the camshaft. It spins freely in either orientation. After installing it I rode the bike for a few trips totaling an hour with no issues. I checked the oil pump cover for flatness with a machinist straightedge. Not a perfect method but it showed no bend. I may dig deeper into this rabbit hole this winter.
You’re very welcome! At the moment the supplier is looking into this for me (with immediate effect). The only info I found online about this topic was on this website: www.motorworks.co.uk/oil-pump-outer-rotor-ena53293-2.html Under description it reads: “Please note that BMW have changed tolerance specification on these rotors so the tolerance between the outside diameter and the crankcase is now significantly larger. This is normal.” To me this is not normal! If the clearance between the outer rotor and the engine housing is larger, you can loose vacuum between your inner rotor and outer rotor. There is a reason why the original outer rotor is larger😬 I try and find a solution ASAP to move on with the engine build. Thanks for your concerns. Regards Andreas
I did not contact BMW directly, but it would be worth speaking to them about this as it‘s a known issue for many enthusiasts! I‘ve contacted the supplier and they did not know of this issue and I am still „waiting“ for a refund. If I will ever get one…I‘m not sure🥲
Yes it is, and that's why I'm sharing these videos. I want as many people to know about the issues I run into and how they can be resolved. At the end of the day, the parts with flaws are not free 😅! I hope you have better success with your R90/6 and that you can get it back up and running. Let's just hope I don't run into any other issues lol. Regards Andreas
Hey there, thanks for the extremelly useful videos. I'm having issues with the engine after rebuilding it and I hope that you have an idea based on your experience with this kind of BMW engine what could be wrong. I assembled the engine like I used to do and prior to put back into the frame I made the oil pressure test with a gauge placed into the hole of the oil pressure switch. I cranked the engine with the starter motor and the oil pressure immediately went up to about 5 bar (I put all the oil pump components together by using thick assembly lube). After let it rest for about 5-10 minutes and repeated the cranking, the pressure gauge is actually doesn't show nothing. When I make the pressure switch hole free (disconnect the pressure gauge) and rotate the crankshaft the oil pressure comes back slowly. After I screw back the gauge, it shows the proper 5 bar again but after 10 minutes of pause the oil pressure disappears. I'm pretty sure, that the problem is around the pump, because after topping it up with assembly lube the pressure looks normal again. Before I put back the connecting rods I saw, that the oil came out from the holes of the crankshaft journals, and the oil is also can go through the rocker arms. The pressure valve is checked, the spring and piston replaced to original new ones and everything moves smooth within it. The oil pump cover is new (both the rotors are new and everything are within specs) and there's about a 0,1-0,15 mm gap between the engine block and the pump cover when all the screws are in their place and the O-ring is fitted. Thanks for any advice in advance, ps: I noticed a 1,5-2 [mm] drilled hole between the oil pump and the crankcase which one was blocked by some dirt. Am I right when I say that it is for lubricating the camshaft lobes by an oil squirt?
This is a possibility, but I wouldn't see why. All other clearances within the engine would still be the same, but not on the oil pump outer rotor. This seems a bit off to me. There are smaller clearances within this engine on the top end (pistons, bore, rocker arms etc.) and thicker oil would still be able to flow past these surfaces without any issues. I'm not sure if the newer bikes (/6 and /7) had different housing dimensions, but I will look into this. It's possible that the outer rotor diameter was changed AND the housing diameter! In this case, the outer rotor would be just fine for those models, but NOT for the /5 models. Just something I thought about the other day. Thanks for sharing your insight. Regards Andreas
I'm glad I could share this info with you! The engine drawing you can see hanging on the wall can be found on my website: workshoprebuild.com/ It will be featured in the upcoming engine rebuild video. Cheers
The oil pump outer rotor specifications are as following: 57.075mm to 57.100mm. If your rotor is within this tolerance, than you have a good outer rotor. On the other hand the engine housing specifications are: 57.200mm to 57.246mm. Anything within this tolerance means your engine housing is to size. Now the new oil pump outer rotor I received is 56.941mm! This is beyond the wear limit for the outer rotor, which means it cannot be used for the engine rebuild. The clearance between the rotor and the engine housing is also NOT within the specifications. Did you measure your original outer rotor or did you purchase a new one from a company? Please let me know as I am having issues with this.
@@WorkshopRebuild Hi,I keep thé original one that I fond on the bike. It seem to be all right. I see an old one in the parts I receveved this the bike but I dont know when this part Washington renew
@@PistonetSavon The outer rotor you you will reuse is most likely within factory specifications, because it is the original one. I'm glad you can reuse your old one. This way you won't have the same issues as me (haha!). I will see what solution I can find finish my engine. Thanks again for sharing this information with me. Regards Andreas
I personally don't want do that, because I am dealing with the supplier to sort out this issue behind the scenes. This won't just help myself, but it will also help everyone else down the line that orders from them. Many people ran into this issue before me and they dealt with it in their own way! I couldn't find any info online and that's exactly why I made this video. Hopefully I can resolve this issue and share an update in the next video. Thank you for your comment. Regards Andreas
Scrap parts can be fabricated in any machine shop, not just in China. Honestly, I wouldn’t put much trust in the stickers placed on parts packaging these days-they don’t really guarantee where the parts were actually made. It's unfortunate that it happened to be these exact parts, but for every problem there is a solution 😊
Smart guy for catching that.
Thank you for your comment. If I would have installed this "new" oil pump with the undersized specifications, it could have lead to catastrophic failures. I'm glad I found this issue, before the entire engine assembly. Regards Andreas
Great video. Please keep posting great infomation liek this. I'm new to air cooled BMW's. I bought and repaired/rebuyilt two this pasy year. I'm a British bike guy. Been rebuilding and riding them since I was 17. 40 years ago... My dad was a heavy equiptment mechanic bak in the 50's and 60's. He taught me a lot. Biggest benefit is the critical meausring and fitting of parts. Not to just bolt on new parts assuming all is good. Mausure and replace parts only when they are worn beyond spec. Sounds like you have had similar training from a machinest or an old style mechanic.
Man too bad it wasn't too big. Kind of hard to stretch it lol. Love your work! 😎
Yes it would be hard to stretch that rotor😄 Now I just have find a solution in order to continue with the engine assembly.
Thank you so much!👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽 Cheers
I am watching your channel and the restauration. It's perfect what you are doing.
At the time, when these /5, /6, /7 models were built, mineral oil was very common. Mostly 20W50 in summer.
BMW advised to run the engine carefully worm after starting.
The gap between the outer oilpump ring and the housing is small enough that the outer ring can slide in the housing on an oil film.
And, if the engine runs, you always have overpressure in the closed oil pump. So there should be no risk to run the oilpump / outer ring with these dimensions.
Also for the gear box. BMW adviced to use mineral oil SAE 80 or SAE 90.
I used always SAE 90. Shifting was much smoother than with SAE 80. Even in winter.
Of course after carefully running the engine worm after starting.
These engines were made for daily drivers. Had 5 of them.
Regards and good luck from Austria.
Hello,
I am aware of the gap between the outer ring of the oil pump and the engine housing.
Unfortunately the original outer ring is still perfectly within the factory specifications, despite being used for 50+ years.
The new “OEM” BMW outer oil pump ring, is 0.005” (0.127mm) smaller is diameter! This is straight out of the box.
According to the specifications, these parts are scrap or also called (Ausschuss) in German.
I am aware that certain upgrades were made over the years to specific components, but running a loose oil pump within an aluminum housing is just calling for issues.
I’ve spoken with a few enthusiasts from Europe and they also told me about this issue. They ONLY use “Good-Used” oil pump rotors in their engine nowadays, because they cannot afford to install lousy quality parts…especially when working with customer engines.
This issues caught my attention, because for every engine I rebuild, every internal and external measurement is documented in engine rebuild sheet. Without this data, one will never know what quality the engine has been built to.
Therefore it’s important to find these small, but BIG issues before the engine goes together.
I hope this gives you an insight on what to look out for in case you decide to work on the oil pump area of this engine.
Grüsse aus Kanada
-Andreas
@@WorkshopRebuild
Danke Andreas,
hoffe, dass du das richtige Teil findest.
Ich meine, dass selbst das neue Teil für ausreichend Öldruck sorgen wird, trotz des geringen Untermaßes.
Meine Meinung.
Nochmals Danke und viel Erfolg.
Tolle Arbeit.
Gruß Wolfgang
How do you know it is a BMW OEM part? The original part has a notch or dot punched in the outer and inner rotor, these should face to the outside, and the notches should align. I was wondering if that is really imported. I have assembled my r90S engine, and when I checked pictures later, I saw that I didn't pay attention to that, the dots are on the inside, possibly not even aligned. I planned to disassemble the clutch, flywheel, grrrrrrr (me being angry at myself), and install the oil pump as the manual says it should be done. If anybody has any info on this? Xavier
I Will check mine quickly
Yes, please do! One Facebook member had showed me 4 outer rotors that he purchased and he ended up using the old one, as all new ones were not within the factory specifications.
This is either the clearance between the rotors and/or the clearance between outer rotors and engine housing.
Please keep me updated about your parts. It will also help others😊👍🏽
out of curiosity, why are you replacing the old one?
The old oil pump rotors show wear on the inside surfaces. In order to create good vacuum between both rotors, you want all inner surfaces to be extremely smooth.
All dimensions are critical when it comes to the oil-pump assembly and it’s best to replace them if they are worn. This way it will last another 50+ years.
Regards Andreas
Thanks for the reply, makes sense. I saw in your engine assembly build that you installed an oil pump - did you come to a conclusion about the 'new' spec from BMW? @@WorkshopRebuild
Not at all! I found a good “original” used outer rotor for the install, but the new spec does not make any sense to me.
You wouldn’t make an adjustment years later, without making changes to the housing diameter. Something I have yet to figure out!
Glad you figured something out to keep moving forward at least.
I've just ordered one from Bayer since mine was scored. it's described as 'Improved version with oil pocket for better lubrication when starting the engine'. it will be curious to see what the diameter is. @@WorkshopRebuild
Yes, I'm glad I found a really good outer rotor! I hope the one you will get is not undersized as well. The ones with pockets are the newer versions, but it's hard to believe someone would change the tolerance-spec after 50 years. The old one that was within my R60/5 engine was still PERFECTLY within spec on the outside diameter, but the inner surface was not good enough to reuse. This means the clearance was just fine...anything smaller will cause more problems.
Please keep me updated on your findings. Cheers
Let's talk about the inner rotor orientation... My '89 R100GS has the inner rotor with a chamfer/bevel on one side. I see it isn't mentioned anywhere but Snowbum's site and he casual mentions which direction the bevel faces as if it doesn;t matter.
I found this info after I already installed mine backwards so I'd rather not mess with it. Getting that oil pump cover to seal was a pain that required pulling the tranny twice, and adding some silicone sealant to the cover along with the fresh o-ring.
I haven't personally worked on the R100GS myself yet, but maybe sometime soon. Depending on the design features of the engine block, camshaft and oil pump cover, the chamfer orientation is critical.
If I would have already had these parts in my hand, I could have told you which way it should be assembled.
The oil pump seal (o-ring) is the same for all models from 1970-1995. If you're not getting enough squeeze on your o-ring, you might have a warped oil pump cover or an o-ring of the wrong size.
If you have any other issues that you encounter, feel free to reach out at any time...but I hope you're GS doesn't cause you more issues than you've already experienced. Regards Andreas
@@WorkshopRebuild Appreciate that.
The chamfer does not seem to interact with anything on the cover, or or the camshaft. It spins freely in either orientation. After installing it I rode the bike for a few trips totaling an hour with no issues.
I checked the oil pump cover for flatness with a machinist straightedge. Not a perfect method but it showed no bend.
I may dig deeper into this rabbit hole this winter.
Super update. What is the manufacturer response??
You’re very welcome! At the moment the supplier is looking into this for me (with immediate effect).
The only info I found online about this topic was on this website:
www.motorworks.co.uk/oil-pump-outer-rotor-ena53293-2.html
Under description it reads: “Please note that BMW have changed tolerance specification on these rotors so the tolerance between the outside diameter and the crankcase is now significantly larger. This is normal.”
To me this is not normal! If the clearance between the outer rotor and the engine housing is larger, you can loose vacuum between your inner rotor and outer rotor.
There is a reason why the original outer rotor is larger😬 I try and find a solution ASAP to move on with the engine build.
Thanks for your concerns. Regards Andreas
@@WorkshopRebuild You just QC 'd it for them. Defective. They should provide you another, in spec.
So, what - if anything - did BMW have to say about this? Have you approached the importer for a response?
I did not contact BMW directly, but it would be worth speaking to them about this as it‘s a known issue for many enthusiasts!
I‘ve contacted the supplier and they did not know of this issue and I am still „waiting“ for a refund. If I will ever get one…I‘m not sure🥲
This is discouraging. I'm working up to getting my R90/6 running again and it seems like every new part you're trying is worthless
Yes it is, and that's why I'm sharing these videos. I want as many people to know about the issues I run into and how they can be resolved. At the end of the day, the parts with flaws are not free 😅!
I hope you have better success with your R90/6 and that you can get it back up and running.
Let's just hope I don't run into any other issues lol. Regards Andreas
Hey there,
thanks for the extremelly useful videos.
I'm having issues with the engine after rebuilding it and I hope that you have an idea based on your experience with this kind of BMW engine what could be wrong.
I assembled the engine like I used to do and prior to put back into the frame I made the oil pressure test with a gauge placed into the hole of the oil pressure switch. I cranked the engine with the starter motor and the oil pressure immediately went up to about 5 bar (I put all the oil pump components together by using thick assembly lube). After let it rest for about 5-10 minutes and repeated the cranking, the pressure gauge is actually doesn't show nothing. When I make the pressure switch hole free (disconnect the pressure gauge) and rotate the crankshaft the oil pressure comes back slowly. After I screw back the gauge, it shows the proper 5 bar again but after 10 minutes of pause the oil pressure disappears.
I'm pretty sure, that the problem is around the pump, because after topping it up with assembly lube the pressure looks normal again. Before I put back the connecting rods I saw, that the oil came out from the holes of the crankshaft journals, and the oil is also can go through the rocker arms. The pressure valve is checked, the spring and piston replaced to original new ones and everything moves smooth within it.
The oil pump cover is new (both the rotors are new and everything are within specs) and there's about a 0,1-0,15 mm gap between the engine block and the pump cover when all the screws are in their place and the O-ring is fitted.
Thanks for any advice in advance,
ps: I noticed a 1,5-2 [mm] drilled hole between the oil pump and the crankcase which one was blocked by some dirt. Am I right when I say that it is for lubricating the camshaft lobes by an oil squirt?
Perhaps BMW switched to a higher viscosity oil that allows for more play between mating parts?
This is a possibility, but I wouldn't see why. All other clearances within the engine would still be the same, but not on the oil pump outer rotor. This seems a bit off to me.
There are smaller clearances within this engine on the top end (pistons, bore, rocker arms etc.) and thicker oil would still be able to flow past these surfaces without any issues.
I'm not sure if the newer bikes (/6 and /7) had different housing dimensions, but I will look into this. It's possible that the outer rotor diameter was changed AND the housing diameter!
In this case, the outer rotor would be just fine for those models, but NOT for the /5 models. Just something I thought about the other day. Thanks for sharing your insight. Regards Andreas
This is super helpful to know! Also...where did you get the engine diagram on the wall behind you?! It's aweseom!
I'm glad I could share this info with you! The engine drawing you can see hanging on the wall can be found on my website: workshoprebuild.com/
It will be featured in the upcoming engine rebuild video. Cheers
57.1 mm I think it is a original one. No clearance
The oil pump outer rotor specifications are as following: 57.075mm to 57.100mm. If your rotor is within this tolerance, than you have a good outer rotor.
On the other hand the engine housing specifications are: 57.200mm to 57.246mm. Anything within this tolerance means your engine housing is to size.
Now the new oil pump outer rotor I received is 56.941mm! This is beyond the wear limit for the outer rotor, which means it cannot be used for the engine rebuild. The clearance between the rotor and the engine housing is also NOT within the specifications.
Did you measure your original outer rotor or did you purchase a new one from a company? Please let me know as I am having issues with this.
@@WorkshopRebuild Hi,I keep thé original one that I fond on the bike. It seem to be all right. I see an old one in the parts I receveved this the bike but I dont know when this part Washington renew
@@PistonetSavon The outer rotor you you will reuse is most likely within factory specifications, because it is the original one. I'm glad you can reuse your old one. This way you won't have the same issues as me (haha!).
I will see what solution I can find finish my engine. Thanks again for sharing this information with me. Regards Andreas
Please name and shame the parts supplier so that they either improve their parts QC or people will stop buying from them.
I personally don't want do that, because I am dealing with the supplier to sort out this issue behind the scenes. This won't just help myself, but it will also help everyone else down the line that orders from them.
Many people ran into this issue before me and they dealt with it in their own way! I couldn't find any info online and that's exactly why I made this video.
Hopefully I can resolve this issue and share an update in the next video. Thank you for your comment. Regards Andreas
Why? Because the contract the work to China...
Scrap parts can be fabricated in any machine shop, not just in China. Honestly, I wouldn’t put much trust in the stickers placed on parts packaging these days-they don’t really guarantee where the parts were actually made. It's unfortunate that it happened to be these exact parts, but for every problem there is a solution 😊