Early Thoughts on Dawntrail - Magic Cat Thoughts
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- Dawntrail thoughts
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Please forgive some parts with audio hiccups. I am on a new system with different equipment and everything and I am honestly very tired after nearly a dozen recordings and dealing with a plethora of issues. I have reduced it by quite a bit but some are still in and I do notice them and they bother me, but I have lost count of the amount of recordings making this video. So again, I ask, please forgive those moments in the audio because I am truly exhausted from recordings and technical problems and wanted to get this video up in a reasonable amount of time. I will continue to work out these audio pops as they really bug me. Thank you everyone!
Dawntrail was... really something.
I played this game for the first time in 2015, only two years after ARR released. I didn't play long because I had no money, but I tried again in 2016. Once again, I didn't play long because I couldn't quite get the hang of it, but in 2017 I tried a third time and never stopped. I have played for 10,000 hours combined on all my characters, over 9,000 being on my main. I have written quite literally around 300,000 words of fanfiction for this game alone, and that's actually a lowball estimate. I can still remember old mechanics for the Crystal Tower raids. I have played through Endwalker on two separate characters, with at least two more in Shadowbringers and three in Heavensward. I know the story like the back of my hand and obsessively collect as much background lore as I can.
NOTHING has made me as angry as Dawntrail has. It was, in my opinion, a bad expansion.
Music: 9/10 loved the exploration in style (with *that song* being the horrible exception)
Environments: 8/10 fun, colorful, getting the aether currents hasn't felt like a massive chore like HW ones, playing with flowers in the new graphics has given me SUCH joy haha
Dungeons/Trials: 7/10 challenging mechanics without being impossible, changes in environment, interesting locations... the most major downside is not being allowed four NPCs to choose from for about half of the dungeons. I play with trust system for story and I was startled to see that I could not choose my party most of the time. I suppose they're just mixing it up, but it felt like being forced to play with their new favorite character against my will.
Story: 4/10 interesting ideas were buried under one very overwhelming presence. ANY moment spent away from lion lady was a welcome reprieve. I was relieved when she was kidnapped, you know how bad that is???? The final area had me crying my eyes out. I just wish we could have had more time to develop it. Personally, I would've... I would've really liked for Erenville, who has been SO WORRIED about his mother the latter half, to hold his mother's hand as he shuts down the terminal. When your loved one is dying (and this is like a second death), don't you want to hold hands one last time? Embrace? It hurt so much to leave her standing there in the distance, all alone. I know physical touch isn't for everyone but I think that could've been really cathartic.
Koana: 8/10 for me, I LOVE scholars, his design is beautiful, big bro energy is lovely, and what little we DO get of him shows a character who can really shine, *if given the chance* :/ He started doubting himself and I understood him, but just because he isn't good at being social doesn't mean he can't learn, or that he's not fit for the job. I started going "nooooo Koana stop!!!" when he withdrew from the contest. The entire expansion up to that point, I felt he was the best one for the job and he just needed more time to really learn how to appreciate his people's ways while protecting them with the knowledge he learned in Sharlayan. And he COULD HAVE, he could've had that character arc more fleshed out, if it weren't for SOMEONE. :T
Sphene: 8/10 she was so cute, I loved her immediately, I could FEEL her love for her people. The story did a good job by making me frown when she talked about what she is going to do to the Source and other shards, and question her motives. The parallel between her and the dev's fave was made apparent, yet somehow she came off less one-dimensional and stupid and far more genuine and desperate. She just got ruined by the Main Problem, especially at the end there.
Zarool Ja: 4/10 whatever man you have daddy issues or something, just... whatever
Bakool Ja Ja: 6/10 the reveal was super emotional and I was horrified, but after that, his complete turnabout in attitude was off-putting and just fed into the Main Problem. Still more interesting than big bro though. At first he was just hilariously evil, which I liked.
Minor NPCs: 8/10 Mablu the Pelupelu girl was soooo cute, very much enjoyed her help; Roxas (I mean, Shenza? lol) the train engineer and his cohorts were a delightful treat and I was really happy to see that Not-Magnus's wife was alive q.q the giants and their way of life were emotional and tugged on my heartstrings for sure.
see more because I wrote too many words lmao
Dev's fave, lion lady, wuk lamat: 0/10 and only because I cannot properly quantify a negative number. Say it's 0 Kelvin, if you will. When we first met her in EW, I was, first of all, taken the HELL out of immersion by her English voice. I quickly switched to Japanese and she was immediately better acted, but while that smoothed some ruffled feathers, she still prickled me somehow. I remember telling friends that I was worried that she would be made to be better than me, because of the instance we ran with her and just... her overall behavior.
I have a LOT of issues with "passing the torch" stories, namely: Guardians of Ga'Hoole and Ace Attorney. Nyroc/Coryn as a character in GoGH is fine, it's just that I'd spent six books with Soren and now I had to care about a new guy? Apollo's story having to tear down Phoenix made me very upset, and then in AA6, the game FORCES you to beat Phoenix in a civil dispute and that makes it seem like "the student has surpassed the master" because then Apollo, of ALL PEOPLE, has to defend against the queen, and Phoenix and Athena are just... there. In the background. You can even forget that they ARE there, like I have.
So I could tell immediately that this new chick was supposed to be someone I was supposed to look out for, and possibly? maybe? be a mentor to? And that had me on edge because I've only ever seen one time that I liked "passing on the torch" and that was literally a prequel game (great ace attorney). And then we get to Tural and the game decided I didn't need my friends anymore. It was wuk lamat and wuk lamat only. I VERY QUICKLY became tired of her. Every chance we had to split up, I'd be stuck with her. Oh, sure, sometimes Krile would come along, but I WAS STILL STUCK WITH HER!!!!! I have NEVER been forced to hang out with one character this much. The dev team kept pulling me away from the twins, of whom Alphinaud is my absolute favorite character, and it just made me more and more upset! GIVE ME SOME BREATHING ROOM!!!! I am not going to like your new bae if you don't let me have space!! You are so right that we were just watching her. The Scions became pointless, unless it was them all saying how amazing she was.
I haven't used this phrase in years but this time I will: this girl is a Mary Sue. She is perfect; any apparent flaws are cutesy or easily forgivable (being seasick is the most notable example). She faces hardly any obstacles. She just magics her way through problems set before her. She is handed things that she had no right to. They made it clear from the launch trailer that she would win the throne, which made the competition lose all sense of excitement for me; it could've been so much more interesting if she HAD lost the throne, forcing her to actually grow up. The oh-so-magnanimous offer of sharing the throne with Koana literally at the crowning ceremony made me so angry. She is a PRINCESS, how the hell does she know so little about her people???? People she claims to love????????? Why is she so naïve? And then everyone immediately loves her after she barely does anything at all? ALL of the Scions think she's amazing for no particular reason. Over time, I realized that Alisaie had taken an unusual shine to this girl, and it felt so out of character. She also has apparent moral high ground by saying "welllll I respect that it's your culture to use souls (even though I find it horrendous), just tell me about it uwu" but that just makes her a flimsy character. There is a line and Sphene/Alexandria CROSSED it. Stand your ground, girl!! Tell Sphene that it is horrible and you will never find it okay! COME ON!!!
And then interrupting the boss fight that was specifically brought to bear because Robot Sphene decided that the *Warrior of Light* was the most significant threat?? When she jumped in, I thought, oh, wait, does that mean that G'raha and Krile are going to escape too? Is Erenville sending in the cavalry? NOPE! HAHAHAHA JOKE'S ON ME!!!! This dumb idiot comes in, screaming "hey! listen!" and blah blah "understanding" yadda yadda, my Lord, I think I screamed. It was much better acted in Japanese throughout the expansion, but the JP voice is actually talented and not just "yeah I'm a big fan of the game! :)" I'm a big fan of the game too (see above) but I know I would never be good enough to act in it. So I'm glad I missed out on the terrible acting; my friends have commented on how mediocre it is, and apparently people LAUGHED in the final boss fight when she showed up because the acting was THAT bad. Nothing felt earned with this character. This game really wanted me to believe that this girl is stronger than *G'raha Tia* which is just -insert angry laughter here-
I have never in my life angrily growled, "go AWAY! leave me ALONE!" and "shut up!" this many times. While my overall ratings were high, this *one* character has made the expansion by far the worst for me. ARR is boring but it doesn't ever make me *angry* like this one did. I might still rank DT higher than ARR, simply because ARR is just that slow like you mentioned, but it's really not by much. I was not expecting some grand adventure on the same scale as the last two expansions. I wasn't even expecting "summer vacation" because this was very clearly still a job, just in an exciting new location. I *was* expecting to be able to work together with old and new characters, which didn't really happen, because nope, lion lady time. I don't know what was going through the dev team's heads or who was pressuring them so much, but this was an awful end result. I can only pray that patch story content will improve and that she gets left behind in this expansion.
I'm not quitting this game and I will continue to enjoy what I love about it. I have many, many goals left to do. I have many stories to write. I wouldn't be here without ffxiv (this game quite literally saved my life in 2019 with the Exarch's speech before Mt. Gulg in Shadowbringers), and I will not stop loving it because of this.
This is a very detailed response. Thank you for taking the time to share. It's been a while and I've been thinking over the expansion more and more and I'm starting to feel more disappointed by so many missed opportunities. They really focused on areas where I feel didn't need so much focus and the areas or ideas that were interesting were robbed of time they deserved.
I want to bring some of these things up in future vids as there are genuinely some diamonds in the rough in this expansion that I want to pull more attention to.
It's also nice to see someone else who loves the music so much. I think this game has beautiful music. DT gave us Skydeep Cenote as I mentioned and also the battle with Valigarmanda had a really fantastic theme.
I think it also would have done some great justice to have more scenes of the scions just *living*. They have always been under constant stress and pain and anguish. It would have been nice to see them just relax and kick back for a while, have them talk to each other more and just enjoy life a little post Endwalker.
@@moonkiitty I had the exact same perception at the end of EW and I was thinking is there a way to say no to join her group of supporters?
I still remember her bragging that she will kill the big bird so she can eat it becasue she is starving and then the ridicoulous scene with the hot sauce at the restaurant of Sharlaya and from there she does not stop to be a joke.
No matter how they pretend she grew as a character she is not a leader not a kingdom ruler, she is just a weak peace dreamer and toxic optimist that almost cryed becasue someone stepped on her tacos but in fact all she thinks about is eating.
Are we seriously comparing this sort of Sailor Moon to The Admiral Merlwyb, Sir Aymeric, Raubahn, or Hien?
And even about the idea that we should mentor her, with just nodding and pretending to smile, letting her do all she likes, including stealing us the kill and the scene completely after a hard fight where we fight for The Source and all the friends we have in the reflections.
She is an adventurer wannabe and not a charismatic leader she does not even show an interest to what ruling is but for some reasons a sheltered kid that never left the palace before is way stronger than 8 Warriors of light.
I hated when after the first trial we go back and all say let's get some rest and she comes to our room and does not even let us sleep just to steal more spotlight.
And at the very end when we finally close the quest she even dare to say that she will join us if we find some future adventure, not only she has nothing to do "as ruler" but she is also planning to follow us even more, should we file a restraining order for stalking?
I play since 2013 almost with no breaks and brought up 4 characters up to the end of EW, now I will either wait the story skip on the next expansion for my alts or maybe opt for another game, which is sad, I love my characters they have been my guides in this fantastic world but if I cannot even see them on screen because we have an attention seeking self important brat hiding everyone else why should I play?
Downtrail would have been amazing in terms of gameplay and new additions even with some minior issues but being forced to watch a very annoying B-Movie while playing ruins the experience completely.
Natsuko Ishikawa stepped back from writing after Shadowbringers and Endwalker. Explains alot. 😅
There are many things I want to say about the first 5 levels of this story alone... I'll just say that having the themes hammered in repeatedly, mainly by Wuk Lamat, actually made me want to skip the story. I did my best to stay patient too, but I was so worn out... (I played with the JP audio too, so I even missed out on the highly questionable voice direction)
Heck, I was happy to go to the Old West with Erenville because it felt like he was finally getting a chance to shine a little. Him and Krile were really robbed, in my opinion.
I agree with the unearned WL moment at the end, its not enough to sour the entire story for me like some do. I agree with the song choice at the end and it being pretty weak as well. i feel like having WL be busy with defense with koana wouldve been the better choice.
it shows a lack of confidence in the writers in the WoL as a character them self. At least the focus of the story shouldve moved from wuks story to our story. Its also the reason why Zone 4 felt refreshing to me.
Dawntrail 7.0 is a very middle of the pack expansion story slotting in before ARR and Stormblood. Thats not the worst and i dont get the overall negativity on youtube at the moment. Not every expansion can be a banger like shadowbringers and we certainly didnt have the buildup to make an "Endwalker" work.
The story does its purpose of giving us a generic opener the writers can take the story in any direction. Sphene at least for a bit did succeed in linking another reflection and with the golden gate and the key we basically have a template for exploring all reflections and or a way to produce a rejoining with better means than the ascians had somehow.
I liked your thoughts and would love to see more of this kind of content
8 Warrior of Light doing an entire trial to hold Sphene, but we all needed Wuk Lamat's help to finish the boss all by herself right? because she's so much better than the 8 of us god slayers right here.
Someone commented that she gives you a buff called "Inspired by Wuk Lamat" as well.
This is why i cheer on zoraal ja everytime in that second trial when he gets to cut her down... man is living the dream
“Thanks for a decade of your valuable time, hard work and subscription fees everyone! But we decided you’re not necessary for the end fight. Lamat’s got this.” 😅
@@Ailuromage Yea, and my biggest problem is probably that it doesn't feel like she earned that moment. When the Scions come back to help you at the final fight against Endsinger in Endwalker it feels that they earned it since they accepted literal death in Ultima Thule for you the warrior of light to succeed.
In Dawntrail she's the only one that breaks free in the fight implying that the Scions who were also trapped couldn't, making the entire scene unbelievable. Puting in context that the same thing happens for the entire expansion were the Scions get put aside for the sake of Wuk Lamat makes things even worse.
Dawntrail made me appreciate Endwalker more
I agree about the last song comment. It was quite out of place. Sounded like a Disney collab.
100% agree about the final trial. Dawntrail was a middling expac to that point; there are a lot of times when I was frustrated by the passive stance of the WoL (we haven't been that passive since ARR) and I am of the opinion that if your narrative demands that the main character stands around like a dofus so that the plot can happen, you need to go back to the keyboard. But the story wasn't bad, even if it was very predictable. I think it would have been more interesting if the WoL had been requested by the Dawnservant to come and act as a neutral judge for the trials. I also think WL should have stayed home for part 2 and defended her people as was her job as Dawnservant.
That being said, I didn't dislike WL or the main story until the end of that final trial. That was the 'jump the shark' moment. We're the Warrior of Light. Destroying worlds ending beings of terrifying power is more or less our job description and having WL jump in like that and totally steal our thunder felt cheap and unearned. It didn't completely ruin the expac for me, but it did cement it as the worst one in my reckoning and destroyed all credibility for WL as a character.
Genuinely, I think giving the main character spotlight NOT to the Warrior of Light was the best possible decision.
Ever since the WoL first beat the Endsinger (that SE went out of their way to bury just before the fight with Zenos calling it a distraction), and then slaps Zenos around for fun I just can not take alleged "World Ending" threats seriously anymore. Not Zeromus, and not Sphene. SE somehow made me sick of seeing... myself. Good job.
As someone who enjoyed most of the expansion, having Wuk Lamat show up in that final trial just killed the vibe for me. Why are you there? You're not needed.
I got so very tired of her wanting to get Sphene to "understand" and wanting to "understand" Sphene. Look, I don't have time for you to wander around and talk to a ton of NPCs to learn about why they are like that. These enemy is about to eradicate all life on the Source.
This should have been Azem's fight, vs a relic that was CLEARLY Azem's.
I think that part was confusing to me too. Some people who speak JP and played in the original JP say the Voice Acting and actual conversations were delivered better. But for us in NA English, Sphene looks Wuk Lamat in the eyes multiple times and literally tells her "I am going to murder you and your family" and Wuk Lamat replies with ":3".
Like I said in the video, from a writing perspective, having a character tell the players they are going to kill everybody ruthlessly and "I am literally going to delete the part of my brain that is good so i can never be good again" more than once is a clear sign of "we have moved beyond negotiations and this can only end one way." How can you be redeemed anymore if you are incapable of being anything else but evil? So even the attempt in that trial for Wuk Lamat to go "Sphene we can still find peace!" I really just don't get it. How exactly is peace even possible at this point?
@@Ailuromage I don't want peace at this point. I want to remove the threat that is going to hurt the star. They ALREADY attacked the star by fusing Alexandria with Yyasulani. Everyone, including Wuk Lamat, all vocally mention how they do not agree with the whole regulator / soul revival thing. So to keep saying "We can still find peace". But how? The way of life for Alexandria and Sphene has been this way forever. There is no finding peace. They need souls and aether.
Like, I love the expansion a lot. But this was grinding my gears so bad on stream because I kept going "Can I please just put Sphene in the ground? There is no peace here."
When Sphene used the relic to transform and fight us and we SEE the Azem symbol on the top, that should have been OUR fight because we were clearly facing off against something from Ascian past that involved Azem.
I can only hope the Post-Dawntrail stuff sees Wuk stay in the capital. Please. (And to clarify, I love Wuk Lamat. Like, protect her til the end love her. But this should have been the WOL's fight.)
Really agree with your thoughts on the second half. Im very baffled that a mjaority of my friends tend to find the first half boring but loving the secnd half despite me feeling the exact opposite.
The second half feels completely underbaked and the Alexandria dungeon just feels like a bad version of Amurot because we have had so little time with Alexandria and Sphene. It was trying to do so much with so little time and it really suffered.
I would have preferred the first half be the entire narrative that way we could really explore each promise further and investigate their ideals and where their beliefs come from and how their ideals are flawed.
Overall it just feels just messy and its trying to do too much all at once.
I think it really could have benefitted from a less is more approach yeah. Could have given more breathing room for each character, and growth would have been more natural. The entirety of Alexandria feels like it could be its own story.
I feel so similar. I really did not like WL, the VA had no emotion or dynamics besides that way of speaking like a Kindergarten teacher talking to kids, it killed so many scenes, I'm so glad you mentioned the trial, when people say they don't understand what we mean by the VA doing a bad job, I'm genuinely baffled, like did we play the same thing? That moment in particular as the climax, she sounded like she was talking to her friend on the street, no emotion at all.
And the song, I'm so glad I wasn't the only one, the vocals in the verses especially sounded crazy, I don't know what was going on with the audio team between the song and WL the whole expansion. I was ok with the chorus but they played that song at times it really did not fit either since it was like this gospel song, like it reminded me of the Circle of Life but they'd be like people walking around with boxes and this overly dramatic song.
I really disliked this expansion, I like the duties and gameplay content, most of the music, but the story felt childish, poorly paced and nonsensical forcing WL at all times.
the final song makes me so sad, cause i 100% understand what it is and what they were going for, but the production really hurt ... almost like it was unfinished.
I had the same exact experience in the final trial, and to be honest, I barely remember what happened after Wuk Lamat stepped in, it felt like a fever dream
I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that. I was serious when I said everyone in my trial just left without a word at the end. The shift in the vibe was insane. I think they all felt the same way, like everyone stopped caring.
I am shocked to hear she's even doing damage. Thought she was just there as a glorified doorstop to prevent the door from closing, but this really ruins the moment even more if she deals tons of damage on the side. I am surprised no one ever brought up Dynamis again, because Wuk Lamat seems to be made of it near the end, overcoming all limits all the time
@@vincentbetonWAIT, SHE WAS DOING DAMAGE!? That explains why my team was doing a shit load of damage all of a sudden. I enjoyed the final trial and story don't get me wrong, but I hope they don't make Wuk Lamat the main character going further.
The main appeal of Dawntrail for me was our character returning to their ARR roots as an adventurer. I don't mind a war story but I was hopeful the final half would focus on us exploring the rest of the continent rather than being dragged into another conflict so suddenly
@@chelsthegameruiner8669 She does a LB that chunks Sphene for 50% of her remaining HP at a point then gives everyone else double damage from being "Inspired by Wuk Lamat" according to the buff. It's insane they push her so much here.
Same here. This entire expansion's writing was terrible and the inserted 'feels' moments feel cheap when viewing the overall product.
I think that Wuklamat should have had her screentime reduced greatly after she became dawnservant,
Her coming along was fine, but the 2nd half should have focused on Krile, Erenville and Koana, they're all from Sharlayan so they would have good chemistry.
The phase 2 of last trial didnt ruin my immersion, but i did go "huh,ok"
I absolutely agree on the credits song, "Gospel" is definitely not a genre that fits in 14 at all,
And its not like the song itself isnt good, every other remix of it is nice(from the dungeons to solution9's ost) its just that 30sec part with the singer going full chorus that really feels out of place.
As its currently going, this expac will be remembered as Stormblood 2: "amazing pve content, story not up to par"
The fact I liked Otis more and broke down so badly seeing him in the final zone (so much in fact that I couldn't bring myself to watch that cutscene where he vanishes) more than Wuk Lamat speaks volumes to me.
Its odd, I saw a semblance of my great grandfather in Otis who passed when I was 23, both were soldiers (Otis a knight, my great grandfather a Korean War veteran) so saying goodbye to Otis felt like saying goodbye to the man who was there since I was born. It was hard for me.
Wik Lamat on the other hand? I get she has her flaws throughout the story but towards the end, she genuinely begins to feel like a Mary Sue where she's even able to beat the biggest threat we've faced yet. Makes me wonder now if our character is even worthy of their title now which is frustrating.
I don't want Wuk Lamat in future expansions honestly and I hope she stays in her home looking over her people as Dawnservant. I feel like people would be more happy if we got Zero back at this point (I would be) since Zero actually had her own flaws throughout the short time we've had with her. Not to mention she's a badass
I actually loved the arc with Otis. He was a great character and it was sad to see him go.
@@AiluromageRIGHT!? I'd actually be thrilled if they had him return in a future expansion or even a minion of him I can earn in-game. When he first got damaged by us, I chuckled saying "well fuck, we destroyed him." Then his sacrifice made me realize how empty I felt knowing I was stuck with Wuk Lamat again
I agree that I did not really like Smile. I appreciate trying a new musical style for the ending them, but I mostly remember the shock factor of it. It felt more like a typical Square Enix vocal ending theme than a FF14 orchestral ending theme. The opening verse is too fast paced so it is really hard to follow along with, and the overlapping chorus groups make it nearly impossible to understand the lyrics. I wish they had played it safe and made it an orchestral theme like the previous expansions.
Me and my gf both thought the final song was pretty bad, was wondering what it sounds like in Japanese and maybe its way better there but the lady singing they got for english was not good lol. Also i wasnt to bothered by wuk showing up in the final fight but i can totally see where your coming from and did think it was forced, was funny you said she can just best her alone because the fight ended so fast for us after that i was like wait when did we just destroy 30% of the hp here in like 5 seconds lol
That ending song is so bizarre because Dragonsong, Tomorrow and Tomorrow, and Flow sound absolutely beautiful. I really don't know what happened with this one.
A copy of Endsinger and the victory is rendered hollow by the Mary Sue who is instantly loved and stronger than everyone. What a farce. Could't agree more, in fact if anything you held a lot back. Also I knew EXACTLY what song you were referring to immediately, it's the song that plays during the montage of them building the train. Krile saves this expansion from being worse than original ARR.
Probably sounding a little contrarian compared to the opinion presented in the video. But I kinda loved Wuk Lamat's presence in the story of Dawntrail in both the first and second half.
Personally I think it's a bit of a matter on how you view the story of DT and I viewed as basically Wuk Lamat's story.
It's her nation, her struggles as a leader, her people she's learning from, and her battle to fight against in the second half of the story.
The WoL's presence in Turial is basically just circumstantial. If Wuk Lamat never invited us to be her champion in Turial we'd probably just be exploring other places in or around Eorzea. We are basically side character in DT's story. Very important side characters mind, but still assistants to the development of Wuk Lamat, the rite of succession, and the even in the second half of the story.
As for Wuk Lamat joining in on the final boss fight of the expansion. I personally enjoyed it since she basically gives me wonderful "Shonen protagonist" vibes and that sense of character just felt so in line with refusing to be left out of the final battle against the BBEG of this expansion.
I will say, I understand that the frustration of not letting the WoL completely have a hero moment of their own. But....we've had like...5? Arguably 6 amazing hero moments in the previous expansion. I think it's refreshing that we're not the hero of the story for once. We're just here to have a good time and possibly do some ass kicking. We've already proven that we're the champion of the world several times over. But we're not the only heroes that can or should exist.
Wuk Lamat is a hero in her own right and Dawntrail was basically her growth into the protector of Turial like we are the Defender of Eorzea.
Nobody likes a Mary Sue that just basically comes in and is portrayed as better and stronger than everyone who actually earned their place, not only in the story but in the power scale hierarchy. She couldn't even defeat Bakool ja ja at first and all of a sudden she can fend Sphene on her own? Why? How? Just because thats the plot is not good enough. It doesn't make any sense. Being forcefully inserted and undermining every relevant character's importance and power level is poor writting and is at the same level as a 4chan fanfiction from a 13 yr old.
Wuk overstayed her welcome in a very bad way. She was practically shoved down our throats the whole expansion. If I see her again in 7.1 I am just skipping.
OMG same. I don't want post EW all over again.
There's a lot to absorb in a big story like this but i found that the more i think about DT's story, the worse it gets. Its like the last jedi all over again
The Last Jedi was a pretty good movie, Rise of Skywalker was the only truly bad film in the trilogy
It’s really frustrating that you can’t criticize wuk lumats character and presentation because people will immediately tie it to the voice actors identity and call you a bigot. It’s making having nuanced discussion about this story really difficult since the community is treating it as if it’s a culture war to have complaints
Personally, I don't know anything about the VA of the character or who they are. My thoughts are purely from within the game.
Unfortunately, the Internet will usually try to find ways to attack others in endless ways.
Literally no one is doing this. I've seen way more comments like yours than anyone defending WL's VA.
@@alchemi8085 I run an ffxiv Twitter it’s literally been my entire timeline for a week+ now. The fact that you’re being this aggressive over my fairly vanilla criticism of the community as a whole further proves my point if I’m being honest. We could all stand to be a little bit nicer to each other is the point
I heard more people bring up her VA out of nowhere as a criticism personally. Like I didn't know anything about her until people got weird about the VA being trans. But that's my experience
@@benmcnally9935 yeah same
The song at the end was so embarrassing. It felt like some awkward homage to Disney hailing in the story's "climactic" end as if a fanfiction character hadn't just deflated every ounce of tension for the WoL right at the end. I wish we just had left Wuk behind before zone 6; too much of a good (subjective, lol) thing becomes bad very quickly.
There is definitely an absence of 'maturity' in the song. I'm not sure if that's the right word but when you hear Dragonsong or Flow, there's a certain sense of 'maturity' to the song, lyrics, and tone. Smile feels like it's from a different game.
The whole Wuk Lamat split is very interesting to me. Personally, I'm on the side that she was a fun character to have around and even the events at the end did not destroy that, because it fit very well with the shounen MC trope she was. Except... it seems that's only the case because I played with the JP voice actor. Having listened in on the EN voice for the trial I can absolutely understand people's disappointment, it's such a huge difference from how it felt in the JP. Something that I imagine held true for a lot of the story, because yes, Wuk Lamat says some very cringe things that just work in Japanese, because it's so ingrained in the culture. Hell, she's basically a straight up reference to Luffy from One Piece at points.
And the realization that DT is basically a shounen anime just... makes the whole thing a lot more enjoyable, I guess? I knew how to set my expectations and nothing really felt out of place in it.
So yeah, very interesting situation over all.
I think it's only enjoyable if you really like shonen. I've never been a fan of shonen anime, and I don't care for characters like Luffy. So Wuk Lamat was pure torture for me. After 9 years of playing FFXIV, and 37 years of playing Final Fantasy going back to the NES, I started skipping cutscenes whenever she showed up.
What makes a person a person would have been a very interesting topic to tackle. Too bad the game just tells us and then contradicts itself in every possible way imaginable. Why are we entertaining non-people? Why are we trying to create bonding moments with non-people? How can these non-people have unfinished business? Why is Wuk Lamat busting into VR to demand a face-to-face with a malfunctioning program? Why are we going on vacation instead of finding ways to save data? Even if I accept these aren't people (which I don't) this is still the living history of a dying shard and we should make efforts to preserve it, just not with people's souls.
There is no reason Sphene shouldn't let us help her. She gave Zoraal Ja complete control of her army for thirty years, but she can't give us a few weeks to come up with an alternate power source than people? Which isn't sustainable as she'll eventually run out of worlds to drain. And even if she can't be reasoned with because the program is messing with her brain, why not just delete her? Everyone else can be reasoned with. We delete them to demoralize her, but then she doesn't even notice they are gone. We at best erased generations of history to demoralize a program in the process of deleting her personality, but I think we're a pack of murderhobos killing everyone including half the moms of our cast for no reason given the entity we were attempting to demoralize didn't even notice.
The last part really did feel a bit rushed. And I do wish they expanded upon what makes a person more, because it's a very interesting angle to take. Especially given the first Act of the story, where all of the promises are struggling with what their identity is and what their place in the world is. There was so much room to explore the ideas of identity, and what defines one's existence.
Sphene worked with Zoraal Ja because their interest aligned. Sphene needed souls to power the endless and Zoraal Ja wanted to take over the world which would of ended up killing a lot of people giving Sphene souls. When we go to living memory we learn that not everyone is recreated because power is running out and more and more dead keep being added to the system. Sphene is out of time which is why she's going to great lengths. And Sphene did ask us to help her, but that help was "Let me kill your people so mine can keep existing.". There can be no co-existance between the endless and the living. The Endless break the cycle of rebirth because souls are used to power them. At some point there just won't be any living beings left to sustain them.
We didn't shut off the endless to demoralize her we did it to open a way to fight sphene. The other parts of living memory not only stored the data of the people but also strengthened Sphene's defenses preventing us from entering. That's why we go to the big terminal first but have to turn around realizing we can't get in. We aren't just deleating the history because the people of Solution 9 are both still alive and have documented their history as well. Living memory was just the top of the tower. We never really had to reason with the people of living memory because non of them tried to stop us. Some that we talked to were even like "Yeah it sucks that for us to be here people have to die but we can't do anything about that."
The endless are recreations of people made from their memory. If in life that person had regrets and unfinished business then those memories and feelings could carry over to the endless.
A lot of this just sounds like you misunderstood the story, most of this is explained in the game.
I don't understand how you think the end was meant to be the WoLs moment. The whole story is Wuk's -- her growing as a leader, wanting to protect her people and learning how to do so. It would be weird to NOT give her a big moment in the finale. There was no narrative about the WoL, so why would the finale be about them?
Just compare her to the leaders we saw so far in the story and you will see that she is not a leader not even at the end not even for a second, she is a delusional comic interlude from the beginning to the end.
I agree, I am comfortable enough to let my WoL share the spot light or even take a supporting role
While I agree I do think it would’ve been faaaaar better to let us defeat sphene alone and make wuk Lamat appear later in a cutscene when sphene goes berserk or something and want to go for more like the exarch did with elidibus
There is no growth as a leader. "Your happiness is my happiness" is what a kindergarden teacher says to a class of toddlers on the first day. Koana has much better and smarter dialogue. Wuk lamat is dumb and insecure until the very end, askign you to hold her hand constantly because she is in a a new place. Just because a character is a protagonist doesn't mean they have to be dumb and nonsensical all the time and then switch to godmode mary sue when the plot requires it in a split second. That's lazy writting.
This story being Wuk Lamat's is a large reason why the expansion is so unpopular here and in Japan. No other character gets a chance to shine, and she can do no wrong. She's literally a black hole Mary Sue that drags the whole thing down.
7.0 makes Stormblood seem well written. And 4.0 was really bad. The vacation was taken by the writters on this one. For the player it became a chore.
Estinien got the vacation we were suppose to have.
SPOILERS:
This is a very balanced take on the expansion. In my opinion, Wuk Lamat was a great character. In terms of appeal, growth and themes, she was the perfect fit. But she was criminally overused for almost every scene. Yes, it was HER story, but the extreme focus on her didn't allow for other characters to shine. The only character who could breathe next to her in terms of focus was Erenville, and that's only because Cahciua was integral to the plot.
The themes of legacy and what it means to be a leader weren't exclusive for Wuk Lamat, either. We have G'raha who led a city state for an entire lifespan. We have the WoL who inherited the legacy of Hydaelyn and the Ancients to protect the entire star. We have the twins who uphold the legacy of Louisoix. Y'shtola could have added to the conversation about honouring the dead by including her experiences with the Night's Blessed. The only characters who were allowed to explore these themes (aside WL) were Erenville and Krile. And even then, no one was allowed to explore these themes properly.
When it comes to the final fight, I was annoyed by Wuk Lamat's entrance, too. First of all, the "character breaks the bubble and enters the fight" thing is overused. Second of all, that was yet another moment where Wuk Lamat stole the spotlight.
Aside from how Wuk Lamat was overused to an annoying degree, this expansion was really good. Nothing in comparion to the last two expansions but it easily lives up to Heavensward and Stormblood.
Honestly, Dawntrail just made me sad. I was really excited for the expansion, took time off to play, and was very interested in what it would set up. But I walked away feeling disappointed and let down. My favorite characters, the Scions, felt like cardboard cut-outs and entirely pointless to the story (what was with the misleading marketing? Why bring them at all if you're going to do nothing with them?) The character balance was way off, with some characters getting far too much screentime at the expense of others (looking at you, poor Krile and Erenville). And the writing was all over the place, with pacing issues and a meandering plot that just didn't work for me.
For the first time ever during my playthrough of a major MSQ, I started watching videos and walking off to do other things because I got so bored.
I had a think and while I can come up with several points in both Shadowbringers and Endwalker that I'd be interested in watching a streamer react to, for example, I couldn't think of a single one in Dawntrail. I really hope they can course correct in the patches and bring this MSQ up to snuff, because as it is, it felt like I was playing a different game, and it was honestly depressing.
I want to offer some of my own opinion and maybe can be used to see if maybe there are some other issue that caused this divide between the player base on how this is viewed.
That being said, I do agree on majority of the points made in this video and I do think maybe we can explore more with Sphene, for ex. try to come with a compromise or find other means or even attempt to before forcing into conflict.
-------Spoiler Related to be warn-----------------------------
The biggest thing that I don't agree is that I feel like Wuk Lamot's appearance at last trail is fine and perfectly justified, and I do think the scene work great.
That being said, one of the biggest thing that might give me this better feeling than a lot of NA player are that I'm playing with the JP voiceover, and I talked with my friends who played on EN voice and find Wuk Lamot's VA lacking and also the last trail scene her appearance extremely out of place with the voice. Where my experience is someone who have grown, and understand Sphene's motivation and reason, and still going to protect her kingdom and face someone who she consider a friend for the last time, and JP VA did well there with full of emotions there. There are also some localization difference on the JP voiceline and en Text which maybe JP voiceline illustrate it better in this part. Especially in contrast to early in the expansion where JP voice clearly portrait her as someone who is immature and naive and just saying that she want to make everyone happy.
The second disagreement is that, even though Sphene could, and will become a Threat to Source and Reflections. She never really give me the feeling that she is gonna become a serious Threat. She is nowhere near the threat of Endsinger, nor Ascian or even Zodiac. At best she is on the same level as Zeromus, where I feel Zeromus might be more threatening due to born out of Zodiac's residual Aether and having a desire to force a giant rift. Don't get me wrong, she can become a threat, but she is not the level that WoL needs to be involved. Scion was involved mainly due to the fact this is related to reflection matter where Scion are the expert on handling this. But WoL participation is more due to we also part of scions and are also helping Wuk Lamot on top of having a desire to resolve this with Sphene in another way. Even though I do find the story cut the last part short and that I do agree it is a bit lacking.
Sphene becoming the main villain was odd to me honestly. She loved her people so much that she was willing to bring about conflict that would result in her people suffering, it's a walking contradiction to her objective and makes her sound more like a warmongering dictator rather than a kind hearted queen who wants what's best for her people.
Like I can't really draw comparisons to her with any real life dictators, but she's willing to effectively cause a mass genocide to ensure her people are happy. Yet once the news of her actions are realized by her people, they'd all be outraged. This I can draw a comparison with post WWII-era Germany. Once the German population learned about the Holocaust, many of them were horrified by what was going on right underneath their noses.
Sphene is such an enigma to me honestly and if the final cutscene with her crown is anything to go off of, I hope she comes back so we can at least get more insight as to why she's been so stubborn about a peaceful resolution
I second that. To me Wuk Lamat helping with Sphene is like...Caith Sith helping with Diabolos. It's the person more heavily invested getting to fight the big bad of their story. Sphene was never our personal enemy.
She allied with Wuk Lamat's trecherous brother, invaded her country and grinded her people's souls for resources. To the WoL, Sphene was just bad guy number 4765, to Wuk Lamat, it was the time to prove she deserved her position of power.
HOWEVER, I do think it was all very clumsly implemented. Tbh, I don't even think this should have been an "Azem moment", I think it should have been a trial that could be done with NPCs. Especially because Krile also has a bone to grind with Sphene (technically so does Erenville but boy can't fight).
Or if they wanted the Azem moment, maybe we beat giant roboto and then Wuk Lamat has a cutscene 1v1 against the smaller body.
But thematically, yeah, 100%, Wuk Lamat had to be there, otherwise...why did we even invest the time in making her queen?
The way it was presented showed us that Sphene had the key and the ability to travel between the reflections. She apparently could just form interdimensional rifts whenever she wanted with it. Entering the Final Trial was because she was going to invade the Source. At least the way it was presented, it was playing her up as something very powerful and threatening.
Maybe the relationship between her and Wuk Lamat came off differently in the original JP, especially in the voices, because in the NA English, there was some questionable delivery and the way they interacted with each other just didn't fit that ending at all. Sphene kept telling Wuk Lamat over and over she is going to kill her, literally. Wuk Lamat just keeps going "but can we be friends?"
@@Ailuromage I'm not exactly sure if the story specific mention she is going to invade source next, she could easily go attack other reflections especially knowing WoL's prowess. That being said, I do agree she eventually will have to do so as her plan is a bottomless pit from the beginning. At least in the JP voice she is more portrait as a misguided queen who fervently love her subjects(see the parallel here?), and aren't willing to admit that keeping endless alive is not a viable option and willing to go down to this path even though herself knows deep down it's wrong and not viable (speaking as her post the lv 99 trail obviously). And this plays well with the Last map put Wuk Lamott through the same situation as her, making us knowing those endless, yet still willing to make the difficult decision.
And Thanks for the info for the last part, it's kind of interesting as the JP voice in the early part do portraits her like that, but as the story progress she become less and less so, even though she still favor friendship and cooperation over conflict, but she is shown as someone who is going to make the hard decision, especially with the her determination to kill Zoraal Ja, and confront Sphene later.
Maybe it's bad voice directions? JP played up her naive and immature nature much further than EN voice and dialogue based on few of the early cutscene I watch from some of the streamer in those early quest, which to be honest looking back I actually would prefer EN for those part.
@@ProfiteerProphet I'm still struggling to figure out WHY we helped her become DawnServant. That's simply not what we, the Warrior of Light, and Azem as a whole, does. We don't help people become rulers. Especially ones that are just not fit to be leaders.
Love this video!
Spoilers.
I enjoyed the expansion, and i really liked that you touched on the shared themes between Bakool Ja Ja and Zoraal Ja. As well as the koana and technology theme throughout the rest of the expansion. The idea of the soul stuff has gotten me more and more curious and Im excited about any future video you make on it. I think divisive as this expansion is, it has really made me think a lot and that has brought a lot of value to me as a player. I think if anything certain things just needed more time to marinate here and there. I think Wuk is overly hated, and I enjoy her character arc a lot. Love the theme of family and found family. Love the theme of sustainability and materialism (i primarily view Wuk Lamat as a character whos development is through the lens of idealism vs. materialism as she realizes peace is not the absence of fighting but material and emotional security. I feel like a lot of the early reception was turned off early and no longer really want to engage with any of the themes which brought a lot of value to the expansion for me, despite the expansion having some problems.
Largely agree. I've neither loved or hated DT like most I see and was waiting to hear from some more that felt the same way I did about the different halves. Especially about finding Wuk Lamat perfectly fine as a character but the issue being how much she dominates the story, going completely off the rails in that last trail.
I am hopefully optimistic that they will try to redeem some of the threads that I though were weak or half baked in the post-launch patches, but this was probably the weakest X.0 release I hit live (started 3.4).
I'm looking forward to the raid content at least. It seems like it'll be lighthearted compared to the very serious raid tiers we had in Endwalker which has potential as a contrast.
i kinda felt that it was a bit to early for wuk lamat to have that jump in moment. Maybe it would have been better if it happen in the 7.3 trial.
With respect, I don't think many of us want to be saved I rather be the one saving the day. Just like Azem did Just like we promised Venat we would.
I'm tired of the sugarcoating on many reviews. This expansion's story was trash. The pacing was trash. Wuk Lamat holds the title of "Most Annoying Character" for me and remains the sole reason why I have switched to using the japanese voices.
I understand that we are meant to treat this as an 'adventure' vacation after saving the universe but holy crap we could have at least had SOME agency and purpose besides being occasional muscle for the Wannabe Hokage.
Krile and Erenville were absolutely robbed of any chance to shine, this was meant to be THEIR expansion for be fleshed out and become part of the main cast.
Krile especially is such a disappointment. She was meant to become one of the scion big shots but nah, had to have all her relevance boil down to her earring and the last little section of the final zone.
That final trial was fun until we had Wuk lamat literally break reality in order to force herself into the story some more.
My GOD the way the VO handled that scene made me melt into a puddle of cringe.
I can comfortably say that this is going to be the one section of the game's story that I will never ever seek to replay.
The only thing saving this from the bottom of the barrel in terms of my rating? The gameplay during trials and dungeons is GOOD, love the mechanics, love the new jobs, love the changes some jobs had.
If I had to rate it? 3/10
What a massive disappointment. Shame.
Sugar coating where? Everyone has only had negative things to say, I've yet to see a positive review of the game
Agreed, Wuk Lamat's only achievement is having been written even more unlikeable than Lyse.
@@Zaikofortem What's funny, is some people are so desperate to defend SE and FFXIV, that they claim Wuk Lamat is BETTER than Lyse. The copium is really strong with them.
Due to the heavy focus on ff9 I absolutely adored the story 😅
I went in expecting the basic structure- that the succession contest would be the first half of the story, and some existential crisis the second half. What I did not expect was that I liked the first half a LOT more. The "contest"- really a test of character that Gulool Ja Ja devised to try to make his children grow as people- far exceeded my expectations for characters and storytelling. In a game where I've come to expect them to try to make me feel bad for the bad guys- they nailed it with Bakool Ja Ja. Zoraal is not as well fleshed-out, but it's clear that he feels the whole contest is beneath him and feels nothing but disdain for everyone around him.
But the first half was boring to play. They have a very rote MSQ structure that front-loads expansions with talky fetch quests and puts the biggest Trials at the end. I don't want to be like "the game needs more combat" but it kind of needs a more even distribution of the action.
The second half of the story, I agree with all your thoughts about the final trial, I loved Wuk Lamat but she's completely out of place there. And overall, I'm baffled that they felt the need to tell essentially a worse version of the stories of the previous two expansions. Queen Sphene was unwittingly recreating the sacrifices of the Ancients, making the same mistakes, we don't learn any new lessons about loss and death as players because it's the same lesson taught by ShB and EW.
While I do get that the plots are very similar, I wouldn't say we didn't learn any new lessons. The final zone hit me in a way Ultima Thule and Aumarot didn't, and I think its because the loss is far more personal. Yes in Ultima Thule you have to give up party members as you proceed but you know they'll be back. Y'shtola says as much before her sacrifice, reminding you of your magic McGuffin stone.
Meanwhile, and I think I'm biased because I'm a huge mammas boy, but progressing through Living Memory really hit me because we're personally having to choose to let go. Its not like Aumarot where we know there are people Emet is clinging to but we've never met them, or UT where we know they'll come back. Namiika saying her final goodbyes really hit me, and Erenville having to let go of his mom messed me up. Even if you're not attached to the characters, you have to choose to let go of the zone itself. The bright and colorful version of it, you have to let go in order to proceed. It took the idea of loss and made it far more tangible than the previous expansions did - and I think they did a good job of it, given all the people I've seen wishing Living Memory could go back to the way it was. It really encapsulates that desire of wanting to cling to the safety of the past/present rather than entrusting yourself to an uncertain future. I personally loved it.
Aumarot and Ultima Thul are both on such grand scales of both world ending and universe ending catastophies that it's easy to understand the feeling but hard to personalise on. Living memory is a very personal place. These people didn't sacrifice themselves to save the world, and they weren't a bi-product of the final days. They were just people who lived like anyone. People who lived normal lives and died as all living things do. Like Eranvill's mom sometimes people just die. A theme through living memory is that non of the cast got to say goodbye to those they loved. Wuk Lamat's foster mother couldn't even recognise her daughter in her final moments. Krile never got to meet her parents. Erenville mother just died we never find out how she died she just is dead and sometimes that's just how life goes.
All these are extremely personal in a way that Aumarot and Ultima Thul are not in. The over arching theme of death is the same but the nuances are vastly different.
That last song feels so plastic and soulless. Just as iwhen Wulk Lamat does her speech when becoming Hokage saying "your happiness is my happiness" and it plays. One could taste the corporate air conditioning and the fakeness of the forced hype like a prompt sign for people to applaud and laugh at a sitcom. Mega cringe and superficial.
Wuk Lamat and Spene are Foils of each other.
Sphene is basically what would happen if Wuk Lamat came to value her Kingdom at the expence of everyone else, that's shown right from when Sphene first appears.
Together with the fact that the current Sphene is an AI with the programmed directive to protect and enable the system of the Endless for as long as possible and that it is implied that the human Sphene would probably never have gone to such extreme lenghts (it's even implied that Endless Sphene does not really want to do this but she has to because of her directive, making her a victim of the scientists that created her), Wuk Lamat "butting" into the fight felt basically the same way as the whole last zone did: Paying respects and putting to rest someone who never should have kept alive for so long.
Even if many find this a cheap knockoff, it still is basically the same to me as when Gaia helped when Ryne lost control during the Shiva Eden fight.
Because of the Key and that Azem's symbol appeared on it, it is highly likely that the Post Story will reveal more about them and put the WoL in center stage as their reincarnation/shard.
(Even though there are other plot hooks that have nothing to do with them that need to be adressed, mainly Gulool Ja and the whole political situation in New Alexandria)
The perspective on the ending is completely colored by the expectation that the WoL is the main character which is actually foreshadowed quite clearly at 8:20.
The WoL is the perspective character that you play as, but the story is not about you, Wuk Lamat is the main character while we are there to protect and guide her, similar to FF10, 12, 7R, etc.
I still have problems with the story and even specifically how focus is distributed between the characters but that kind of criticism really has to start from an accurate understanding of what the story actually is.
If that is the case then having Wuk Lamat grow in a believable way would have been perfect. Alexandria feels like it's own story entirely. If Wuk Lamat's story was purely about keeping her nation together and wrapped up nicely with her assembling all the people of her country together to face a threat like that Ancient Beast used in the first trial, it would have been really well wrapped up.
She ends her story defeating the beast her father could not while building upon the foundation he set as a precedent for peace and cooperation. But introducing a scion level threat and having her somehow hold her own against it is wild and makes little sense.
Yeah pretty much. Although after contemplating my own playthrough for a bit longer, Wuk Lamat felt like an "ok" character after finishing... but considering how much space and time she vacuumed up and how insufferable and pointless it was I would have to state that she was just a badly written character. Imagine all the possibilities if Wuk Lamat wasn't there at all. If we're forced to babysit her every other cutscene, she definitely is not fit to lead a nation. If her logic never goes beyond just blindly wishing for peace and love, no matter how dire the situation, no matter how high the stakes, no matter how destructive or evil her counterpart, she is mentally retarded. Toddlers have more complex inner life than that.
I think a lot of the fan base are still coping with the fact that CBU3 could ever write an actually bad character, but I honestly think they just did. A writers pet that most people just wish went away.
Maybe my words are a little bit too harsh, but I'm just disappointed. Wuk Lamat is not the only character I have issues with regarding writing, but it's hard to say how much those characters could have been improved if Wuk Lamat wasn't there taking up all the space.
I mostly did enjoy the first part even if it was slow. The bird village doesn't make much sense on closer examination, but it was still pretty fun and hopefully the Akademia Anyder connection actually has some payoff instead of just a red herring to keep people awake.
I enjoyed the Pelu Pelu stuff. A lot of it was thanks to the art team and the side quest about the lalafell, in contrast to their culture on trading.
Giants were cool but the bird scene with the hostile giants was a little too convenient and confusing. Made me think the writers aren't really doing their best here. You can also see how this certain theme of friendship and understanding happening without any effort doesn't exist just for Wuk Lamat, it's a legitimate writers trope that they for some reason think is good or reasonable. It's absolutely atrocious. Payoff without any setup, any trials, any work or any conflict. The exact opposite of good writing. How the writers seem to think: wouldn't it be so cool that you could just wish to be friends and it would just happen. This is the through-line of the entire expansion and it is one of the main culprits that is turning the story into trash. If you yell loudly enough you want to be friends, nobody can resist you. This is the thought parasite that ruins so many scenes and so much of the engagement.
I could rant forever so better stop here.
the way you felt during the final trial is how i felt during zenos coming back in endsinger, or emet just not staying fucking dead. if theres a "fan favorite", they'll shoehorn them in this game i just dont care anymore LOL
Emet not being dead made sense as we didn’t use white auricite or something akin to kill him. Recall he was unsundered, and thus it took combined efforts of everyone to wound his body enough that his souls would have to go back to the lifestream. This was established with Ascians very early on in ARR (possibly 1.0). Since he didn’t have any clones to resurrect into, and with the future established talk about memories being regained in the lifestream, it fits that he would help us in the 5.3 trial along with showing up at the end after it was discussed Venat was going to bring someone home from the 1st.
We had to summon Emet and Hythlodaeus only because if we summoned our friends, Meteion would win because they would not be holding her back with hope.
You don’t have to like it, but it’s much better storytelling than Stormblood or DawnTrail.
Zenos I fully agree because he was also 1-dimensional and should have stayed dead in Stormblood.
But Emet-Selch did stay fucking dead. He did not come back after we killed him in Shadowbringers, which we did use white auracite to do as well. In EW we meet him in the past, i.e. before he was killed. And at the end, he himself admits he is merely a ghost.
Describing Zenos as a "fan favorite" is weird considering that he was widely controversial and heavily disliked since Stormblood and even during Endwalker
Zenos was widely disliked because of how poorly written he was in Stormblood. They were "SUPPOSED" to fix him in Endwalker and yet again it was just a plot device who did ZERO harm to anybody the entire time and was again given the dullest, most one-dimensional boring dialogue as in Stormblood for the sake of making Meteion relevant even when Meteion is the most stereotypical anime emo girl. If they were bringing Zenos back it had to be to improve him and make him the final boss, not to prop yet another out-of-nowhere cheap stereotype for the final boss of a decade long story finale.