Gunna be a pedant here, sorry, are they actually ADR approved or just tested? The Department of Infrastructure doesn't normally approve components like this for aftermarket use. The component approval number system is normally provided to components that are being fitted to new vehicles like lights, truck brake systems and bus chassis.
Al has got to be one of the highest quality car builders on the interwebz. Hugh wealth of knowledge, attention to detail, zero compromise and super interesting projects.
What a mixture; old age and treachery, coupled with youth and exuberance. When Blair told you to get on the UA-cam train, did you ever conceive having a quarter of a mill subscribers? You both deserve it. Thanks for your company.
Nice work boys! Steering geometry is one of the most complex aspects of vehicle dynamics, therefore it's one of the most misunderstood aspects. Even OEMs struggle to get everything perfect simply due to packaging constraints, so you've done really well to get the bumpsteer down to reasonable amounts.
Like Al, I did my apprenticeship doing wheel alignments. Holdens and shims were not too bad as there was a massive tolerance for camber and castor on them. Fords you needed to do them in a sequence: camber then castor, recheck camber because moving the castor rod used to adjust camber too. Once you got that right then you did toe...then it was all fucked up the first pot hole the driver hit (XF Falcons were the worst). By far the hardest of that era, I think anyway, was the venerable old Valiant. They had 2 camber pins on the upper arm and if the pivot point on the chassis wasn't rustednoff the camber pins used to be seized solid. As with the Falcons the camber castor adjustment was a balancing act. Al is right, the struggle is real and cars are mostly just toe and go these days.
Hi Al and Woody. Perfect timing on this episode. I'm building an lc tranna and am going through the steering system to remove the factory installed bump steer. And also add electric power steer using a prius steering column and eps ecu. Please let your viewers know who you get to billet cnc the new steering arms as I would like to use them myself.
I started wheel alignments on a Hunter Light align, had to do run out and set up but learned a lot doing it that way. Now I do alignments at home with string and a measuring tape only because the kids with the new machines don’t understand the angles only that it’s in the “green” and OK. Always learning things, thanks!
i work at bob jane and i can agree that they push the wheel outward to make it look way worse than it already is lmao. reason being is customers get the shits about paying for an alignment if the toe etc is only a minute bit out so they make it look worse so the customers happy. insanely good explanation of the steering geometry too, was put into quite basic terms so even those who can't quite understand complex things like that can actually grasp some sort of concept. absolutely love listening to you explain things, so educational and not one bit confusing. can't wait for next weeks vid
That was another really interesting episode, another very informative channel is Superfast Matt, his current projects are a Honda S600 with a 180hp bike engine in it that he does track days with a 1950 Jaguar that he has Tesla swapped and a land speed bike engined project that he has completely designed from the ground up in CAD. Nice shout out to BOM.
Loving the content gents. Love all the changes to the front end. Stuff people would never see. Can tell you Hoppers sorted in the brake conversion in 2003-2004ish. A certain white wagon was the first done.
You should mention the pivot point of the bottom suspension arm should ideally be at the same pivot point of the inner rack end. This is a common mistake and can not only affect bump steer but also cause binding in extreme cases. Center steer racks work better even though they break all the rules with pivot points but they just take up too much space. If you mentioned it in a previous vlog and I missed it then forget I mentioned it ! You should also check you are still getting tow out on turns after modifying the knuckles. Back in the day Falcon xd-xf stub axles on Crowns was common and from memory 1 ball joint needed replacing to do this ( can't really remember which one but the bottom I think ) so you got the whole Falcon brake package steering knuckles and stubs.
Really impressed with the cumulative display of brain power that came up with the solutions I just witnessed. Heeps of thanks for the eye opening trip down new info lane. 👍👍
They called it Radial Tuned Suspension to suit the 'modern' Radial Ply tyres when they moved from Cross Plys. I believe the main change was from positive camber under bump to negative camber. Check out some of the late 60s early 70s car chases and watch the direction of the top of the front wheels, or better still, check out the wheel angles on 1940s grand prix cars. lol
I always enjoy your videos guys, but this one was especially interesting. I did a rack conversion on an Argentine Falcon wagon years ago and got loads of bumpsteer, wish we had done this! By the way, I believe the Argentine-built Falcons are Australian design, including the engines. Thanks from a half Canadian/half Argentine. Cheers!
Doing a rack install on my 84 rx7 from the steering linkage, this helped tremendously and I have been watching for quite sometime. Thanks guys keep up the great work!
Try to keep your tie rods the same length between pivots. The height and the distance from axle centerline is all critical. You can compensate for the mount position with the height of the outer tie rod too. I had a 85 gsl but I can't remember if it's front or rear steer. If you can mimic everything but with a rack it's the way to go.
I was really starting to get worried that you were just going to weld that back together!! Thanks so much for giving us a full blow explanation as to why you have to watch that angle so closely and that you're going to make it out of one piece right on!!!! All the best from Surrey BC Canada
I love how in-depth this is. I did manual rack conversion on a Saab 900 race car and introduced a lot more rake with shimmed upper wishbones . This kind of stuff is still fascinating.
From my observations of cutting and welding steering arms, and driving the car to see what happens (prototype 4x4 Moke, you'd love the jank engineering in it): You can get away with a fair few mm of toe in on compression, but boy howdy if it's toe out by even a mm you have problems. I found that it was easiest to get close by approximating the relationship between the height of the rack, specifically the balljoint on the rack end, the height of the inner balljoint/pivot on the LCA, and subsequently the balljoints for each on the knuckle. I didn't do mathematics, more just visualised it with my hands like I was at a rave, and got it right fairly easily. I had fun and the car hasn't crashed yet.
Burnt fingers from doing shim adjustment on alignments for LH and LX V8 Toranas with extractors. Radial Tuned Suspension ha! Quarter deg neg camber and ona and a half degrees positive castor on pre-RTS had them handling pretty good for the era
Heh guys. The steering arm end, HAS TO be inboard of the main hub-pivots, in order for the for the steering to work properly. It is that difference in dimension, that makes the 'inner' wheel pivot a larger angle than the 'outer' wheel, when going around a corner. With a rear-mounted steering-rack, the two ball joints may well point to the centre of the rear axle, but moving to a front-mounted steering-rack, does not change the requirement that the tie-rod-ends NEED to be narrower than the main hub-pivots.
check bump at angle... it will be terrible around corners. couldn't see well enough in the video but rack ends need to be inline with inner pivot of the arms and they looked long. that will make bump steer blow out when turning. also scrub radius and the length of the tie rod arm will affect scrub radius, needs to be parallel with ball centers.. have done a bit of steering mods when racing back in the day.. make sure you check at steering angles NOT JUST STRAIGHT AHEAD.. keep it up boys well done with the math....
EASY way for someone who is interested to learn this on a basic level how caster/camber/ackermann, toe, bump steer etc works, flows and can be changed - buy an RC car, one of the buggies that people race. ALL of that is adjustable and movable, making it easier to visualize suspension movement and learn what it all does. Most of it anyhow .. my son races competitively and the kid knows and understands more about suspension and setup than most at 13 years old lol. "Dad, you should dial in more caster in your pickup .." Yup, he tossed that out there when he was 12.
That's great fellas reckon you could also do a follow up on how scrub radius can be affected by changing wheel offset? I've heard that can exacerbate bump steer issues
With a steering box the arm moves through an arc. A steering rack just pushes and pulls in a linear motion. This explains alot about the different designs at the the hub end.
another great video as always Al n Woody, having heaps of bump steer issues on my r31 with s13 front suspension, might have to put some of these theories to test.
I try to cut a score in the steering arm that runs level and straight forward and back. Then you can try to keep the angle of the hole for the tie rod end relatively in the right orientation.
The bumpmatic 8000 will only work with the mirror in place as the wheel moves in and out relative to the vehicle centerline and since the target moves with the wheel it automatically takes this into account. Bumpsteer is a very complex problem and even the maths can sometimes fail to solve it and you have to resort to trial and error.
Ackerman doesn't control bump steer. It controls the differential angle between the front two wheels at full lock. It can be used to increase scrub on the inside tyre to help pull the car around a corner. The optimum angle depends on the vehicle speed and corner radius you are tuning for. Bump steer is controlled by the steering linkage pivots. They need to be in line with the inboard and outboard pivots of the suspension arms.
There is also a significant thing regarding the Ackerman when it comes to steering. The lock difference angle, hope this is the right description for it. Did you check this too? So that the radius of the driven corner is matching the way of the wheels…. Hard to describe. Sorry, I‘m German AND a drifter with welded knuckles 🫣😂 Greetings to the Sunshine Coast🫡
I was curious of this too. 0 Ackerman is terrible for road driving. Basically you want the inside wheel to turn tighter at lock to overcome the shorter radius. It's hard to put into words
@@sikhilux85 I think you mean toe out on turns, not really linked to ackerman other than the common link with the steering knuckle. this is why the steering knuckle have a weird shape and are not just staight to ensure while going straight the ackerman is correct but also to create toe out on turns. I was always taught the ideal ackerman point of the rear axle was not in line with the axles but just ahead of the the axle line but then wheel base and track width also change the calculation and even toe in or out on the rear axle need to be added..... Its way complicated. At the end of the day its an old car so there is only so much you can work with. Ackerman while important is only 1 of the many important angles and in many cases one that is the hardest to alter.
That’s pretty cool shit think I grasped some of it bump steer would prob be a dangerous scenario u can get tram tracking on motorcycles which is a prick the acuracy at which the new arms r made and the material and mounting must b critical. She’s gonna b a beast luv this build and the hako 👍👍👍💕
Hopper Stoppers Brake Kits are ADR Approved and are made for HEAPS of different models!
Find a Kit HERE: hoppers.com.au
FFS look at the welding splatter on the brand new brake rotors not hard to protect with a bit of scrap panel steel AUSSIE HACKERS!!!
@@patverry8926 it'll be gone the first time they hit the brakes. Spatter mostly doesn't stick very firmly.
@@patverry8926 FFS, the word is "hacks" not "hackers"🤦
Either way, I doubt Al or Woody give a crap that you think they're hacks 😅
Gunna be a pedant here, sorry, are they actually ADR approved or just tested? The Department of Infrastructure doesn't normally approve components like this for aftermarket use. The component approval number system is normally provided to components that are being fitted to new vehicles like lights, truck brake systems and bus chassis.
Next week on The Skid factory: Ackerman!
That face - when you suggest setting up the bumpenstein mk9 again on the side that's already been done :D
Hahaha well spotted a mix of wtf and oh maybe thats a good idea........
Top effort Al.
There's a LOT of factory cars on the road that are nowhere near that close to right.
Well done 👌
Only turbo toyotas are built perfect
@@krispykruzer turbo toyota by master yoda
@@alexkatana toyodas
Alan or Woody there's a perfect name for the Build right there Toyoda Crowned.
Got me wanting to check my ford pinto... but then I'd have to fix it!
soo many matts, they need more nicknames like sketch
tremendous work Allen, regards, Cain
Al has got to be one of the highest quality car builders on the interwebz. Hugh wealth of knowledge, attention to detail, zero compromise and super interesting projects.
What a mixture; old age and treachery, coupled with youth and exuberance. When Blair told you to get on the UA-cam train, did you ever conceive having a quarter of a mill subscribers? You both deserve it. Thanks for your company.
I told my mum about it.she said good to see 2 lads living the dream.
The outtakes are gold; definitely keep adding those in.
What about some outtake shorts? Exploit the algorithm!
Nice work boys! Steering geometry is one of the most complex aspects of vehicle dynamics, therefore it's one of the most misunderstood aspects. Even OEMs struggle to get everything perfect simply due to packaging constraints, so you've done really well to get the bumpsteer down to reasonable amounts.
You can never have too many Matt's!
Like Al, I did my apprenticeship doing wheel alignments. Holdens and shims were not too bad as there was a massive tolerance for camber and castor on them.
Fords you needed to do them in a sequence: camber then castor, recheck camber because moving the castor rod used to adjust camber too. Once you got that right then you did toe...then it was all fucked up the first pot hole the driver hit (XF Falcons were the worst).
By far the hardest of that era, I think anyway, was the venerable old Valiant. They had 2 camber pins on the upper arm and if the pivot point on the chassis wasn't rustednoff the camber pins used to be seized solid. As with the Falcons the camber castor adjustment was a balancing act.
Al is right, the struggle is real and cars are mostly just toe and go these days.
That's some super knowledge and patience you've got there Al
Looking good mate. I need my own Bumpmaster 80000 :D
Awesome practical explanation guys, thank you. That weld spatter on those new disks are going to give your brakes some real grippy stopping power.
Quite possibly the best episode ever de- mystifying the black art of bump steer and ackerman
Hi Al and Woody. Perfect timing on this episode. I'm building an lc tranna and am going through the steering system to remove the factory installed bump steer. And also add electric power steer using a prius steering column and eps ecu. Please let your viewers know who you get to billet cnc the new steering arms as I would like to use them myself.
They will be hand milled not cnc.
I started wheel alignments on a Hunter Light align, had to do run out and set up but learned a lot doing it that way. Now I do alignments at home with string and a measuring tape only because the kids with the new machines don’t understand the angles only that it’s in the “green” and OK. Always learning things, thanks!
Yep ours was a hunter light beam job. Had to reverse cars on to do rear alignment.
Props for another episode *aligning* with my interests!
i work at bob jane and i can agree that they push the wheel outward to make it look way worse than it already is lmao. reason being is customers get the shits about paying for an alignment if the toe etc is only a minute bit out so they make it look worse so the customers happy.
insanely good explanation of the steering geometry too, was put into quite basic terms so even those who can't quite understand complex things like that can actually grasp some sort of concept. absolutely love listening to you explain things, so educational and not one bit confusing.
can't wait for next weeks vid
That was another really interesting episode, another very informative channel is Superfast Matt, his current projects are a Honda S600 with a 180hp bike engine in it that he does track days with a 1950 Jaguar that he has Tesla swapped and a land speed bike engined project that he has completely designed from the ground up in CAD. Nice shout out to BOM.
Great vid and great results, well done. The last shot with 4X Woody had me in stitches. GOLD!! ;-)
Loving the content gents. Love all the changes to the front end. Stuff people would never see.
Can tell you Hoppers sorted in the brake conversion in 2003-2004ish.
A certain white wagon was the first done.
You should mention the pivot point of the bottom suspension arm should ideally be at the same pivot point of the inner rack end.
This is a common mistake and can not only affect bump steer but also cause binding in extreme cases.
Center steer racks work better even though they break all the rules with pivot points but they just take up too much space.
If you mentioned it in a previous vlog and I missed it then forget I mentioned it !
You should also check you are still getting tow out on turns after modifying the knuckles.
Back in the day Falcon xd-xf stub axles on Crowns was common and from memory 1 ball joint needed replacing to do this ( can't really remember which one but the bottom I think ) so you got the whole Falcon brake package steering knuckles and stubs.
Really impressed with the cumulative display of brain power that came up with the solutions I just witnessed. Heeps of thanks for the eye opening trip down new info lane. 👍👍
Super informative guys, cheers. Loving how in-depth you're getting on this build, it's going to be a cracker.
The Dr Nick thing still cracks me up!
They called it Radial Tuned Suspension to suit the 'modern' Radial Ply tyres when they moved from Cross Plys.
I believe the main change was from positive camber under bump to negative camber. Check out some of the late 60s early 70s car chases and watch the direction of the top of the front wheels, or better still, check out the wheel angles on 1940s grand prix cars. lol
Nice to see Al on his channel.
I always enjoy your videos guys, but this one was especially interesting. I did a rack conversion on an Argentine Falcon wagon years ago and got loads of bumpsteer, wish we had done this! By the way, I believe the Argentine-built Falcons are Australian design, including the engines. Thanks from a half Canadian/half Argentine. Cheers!
Commenting for support
awesome video fellas, always learning new stuff when watching you guys.
Such great knowledge I'll be needing when putting a power rack in a mk 2 Jag. Very helpful.
Doing a rack install on my 84 rx7 from the steering linkage, this helped tremendously and I have been watching for quite sometime. Thanks guys keep up the great work!
Try to keep your tie rods the same length between pivots. The height and the distance from axle centerline is all critical. You can compensate for the mount position with the height of the outer tie rod too. I had a 85 gsl but I can't remember if it's front or rear steer. If you can mimic everything but with a rack it's the way to go.
Serious episode!!!!! Not one lemon squash consumed throughout very informative and edumacational though!!!👍🍻
"HI EVERYBODY" still makes me laugh every time. 😂🤣
Dr Nick lives on at the skid factory
Hi Noctor Dick!
Awesome vid.....top marks Woody on the animations, your production skills are stepping up.
Can't wait to see the shed skids and the first trip down the strip .
I was really starting to get worried that you were just going to weld that back together!! Thanks so much for giving us a full blow explanation as to why you have to watch that angle so closely and that you're going to make it out of one piece right on!!!!
All the best from Surrey BC Canada
Wow! Al looks good in glasses (speaking from one who has worn them since her was two).
I love how in-depth this is. I did manual rack conversion on a Saab 900 race car and introduced a lot more rake with shimmed upper wishbones . This kind of stuff is still fascinating.
From my observations of cutting and welding steering arms, and driving the car to see what happens (prototype 4x4 Moke, you'd love the jank engineering in it): You can get away with a fair few mm of toe in on compression, but boy howdy if it's toe out by even a mm you have problems.
I found that it was easiest to get close by approximating the relationship between the height of the rack, specifically the balljoint on the rack end, the height of the inner balljoint/pivot on the LCA, and subsequently the balljoints for each on the knuckle. I didn't do mathematics, more just visualised it with my hands like I was at a rave, and got it right fairly easily.
I had fun and the car hasn't crashed yet.
Welcome to the Skid Factory! We've got Steering Racks, Storage Racks and Rhodesian Ridgebacks!
Brilliant. Working it out rather than just buying kits and bolting them on.
Super informative video! That is a lot of calculations and thinking to get it right. Good work Al!
this is why you `re great guys, love too see it, some of us asked you for this, and behold, this is just great and informative, cheers !
Burnt fingers from doing shim adjustment on alignments for LH and LX V8 Toranas with extractors. Radial Tuned Suspension ha! Quarter deg neg camber and ona and a half degrees positive castor on pre-RTS had them handling pretty good for the era
There's a good video on bump and akerman on Fanatik builds from his shed in Canada.
Heh guys. The steering arm end, HAS TO be inboard of the main hub-pivots, in order for the for the steering to work properly. It is that difference in dimension, that makes the 'inner' wheel pivot a larger angle than the 'outer' wheel, when going around a corner. With a rear-mounted steering-rack, the two ball joints may well point to the centre of the rear axle, but moving to a front-mounted steering-rack, does not change the requirement that the tie-rod-ends NEED to be narrower than the main hub-pivots.
Great information guys. Will become very useful when I put AU front suspension and steering into an ED. Also 22:22
check bump at angle... it will be terrible around corners. couldn't see well enough in the video but rack ends need to be inline with inner pivot of the arms and they looked long. that will make bump steer blow out when turning. also scrub radius and the length of the tie rod arm will affect scrub radius, needs to be parallel with ball centers.. have done a bit of steering mods when racing back in the day.. make sure you check at steering angles NOT JUST STRAIGHT AHEAD.. keep it up boys well done with the math....
EASY way for someone who is interested to learn this on a basic level how caster/camber/ackermann, toe, bump steer etc works, flows and can be changed - buy an RC car, one of the buggies that people race. ALL of that is adjustable and movable, making it easier to visualize suspension movement and learn what it all does. Most of it anyhow .. my son races competitively and the kid knows and understands more about suspension and setup than most at 13 years old lol. "Dad, you should dial in more caster in your pickup .." Yup, he tossed that out there when he was 12.
The dark arts. It's not for mere mortals. Nice one boys!
THE BEST SHID TRACKTORY EVER UP LOADED !!!!!!!!!!! HANDS DOWN 100% AWESOME ... THANKS AL AND WOODEN AND THE DOG ( SNOOP )
GREAT WORK ..
I'm so keen to see the hako rip!
Blows me away how much information is in alans head
I have a jam label on my MIG handpiece that says "check gas". Glad to see it's no just me.
Worse on a tig lol. Cut, regrind the tungsten🤦♂️
That's great fellas reckon you could also do a follow up on how scrub radius can be affected by changing wheel offset? I've heard that can exacerbate bump steer issues
Loving the full intro 👌
Project binky have some real good info
Ya cruel bastard Woody the outtakes are a um crackup.
Cheers guys, great informative episode.
u are a legend Al!
With a steering box the arm moves through an arc. A steering rack just pushes and pulls in a linear motion. This explains alot about the different designs at the the hub end.
another great video as always Al n Woody, having heaps of bump steer issues on my r31 with s13 front suspension, might have to put some of these theories to test.
So umm, that was great , congrats on getting it that close
Impressive Al
You should be selling counterfeit beer drinking merchandise. Maybe with lemon squash
Awesome video fellas loving the content and loving the crown
Amazing knowledge and explanation turbo yoda
I try to cut a score in the steering arm that runs level and straight forward and back. Then you can try to keep the angle of the hole for the tie rod end relatively in the right orientation.
Haha! Right as you are saying you can't use them. We can but don't be a dumb ass if you aren't capable of doing it correctly.
The bumpmatic 8000 will only work with the mirror in place as the wheel moves in and out relative to the vehicle centerline and since the target moves with the wheel it automatically takes this into account. Bumpsteer is a very complex problem and even the maths can sometimes fail to solve it and you have to resort to trial and error.
Ackerman doesn't control bump steer. It controls the differential angle between the front two wheels at full lock. It can be used to increase scrub on the inside tyre to help pull the car around a corner. The optimum angle depends on the vehicle speed and corner radius you are tuning for.
Bump steer is controlled by the steering linkage pivots. They need to be in line with the inboard and outboard pivots of the suspension arms.
UMMMM LOL SOOO. Al knows what's up!. Good on ya boyz!.
Did you allow for the thickness of the glass😎
This makes Michael happy
That is the main thing
@@theskidfactory :)
Hell yeah, this was a really cool video. I love this nerdy stuff!
good stuff mate
i wouldn't have the patience to do that. going to be awesome
MrXXXX is Paddy Fitzgerald .He was the travelling sales representative back in the day cheers
Gerald FitzPaddy was his good mate.
Nah they where blokes from sydney
This build makes me stay motivated for mine. Mine is wayyyyyyyy more simple than this.
That was great Al. Now I understand why my XL Falcon back in the 80s was so terrible with a mix of XB and XL front suspension 😂😂🤣🤣
Good vedio Guys.. All the best
There is also a significant thing regarding the Ackerman when it comes to steering. The lock difference angle, hope this is the right description for it. Did you check this too? So that the radius of the driven corner is matching the way of the wheels….
Hard to describe. Sorry, I‘m German AND a drifter with welded knuckles 🫣😂
Greetings to the Sunshine Coast🫡
I was curious of this too. 0 Ackerman is terrible for road driving. Basically you want the inside wheel to turn tighter at lock to overcome the shorter radius. It's hard to put into words
@@sikhilux85 I think you mean toe out on turns, not really linked to ackerman other than the common link with the steering knuckle. this is why the steering knuckle have a weird shape and are not just staight to ensure while going straight the ackerman is correct but also to create toe out on turns. I was always taught the ideal ackerman point of the rear axle was not in line with the axles but just ahead of the the axle line but then wheel base and track width also change the calculation and even toe in or out on the rear axle need to be added..... Its way complicated.
At the end of the day its an old car so there is only so much you can work with.
Ackerman while important is only 1 of the many important angles and in many cases one that is the hardest to alter.
I’m on a same deal with my 🏎. Thanks lads!
I always thought Radial Tuned Suspension was named as such to suit radial tyres (as opposed to cross ply)
My thoughts too bias tyres ran negitive castor and radials run positive castor generally
That's called marketing. They still had RTS badges on VN's.
That was a awesome video. Thank you very much.
XF Motorsports on his channel has very good series about steering design for his ASL project car (time attack bullet).
Love the videos. But how do hopper stoppers feel about the welding spatter on the new rotor 🤣
Great video, I learned a lot, thanx for the info
Brilliant!
Great stuff lads, onya
That’s pretty cool shit think I grasped some of it bump steer would prob be a dangerous scenario u can get tram tracking on motorcycles which is a prick the acuracy at which the new arms r made and the material and mounting must b critical. She’s gonna b a beast luv this build and the hako 👍👍👍💕
i like the bumpmaster 8000 overseas name hahaha, Cheers 4 sharing some knowledge
A drawing of what you changed to achieve the desired result would be handy.....
What if I'm drifting on the street then can I cut and weld steering arms?
Good deal guys. doing the hard stuff to make it right off the bat.
This is the stuff that separates the boys from the men. Awesome
Good info guys keep up the good work
on you alan, that was really good value, working that shit out is hard.....