🧙 Torrhen Stark knew Aegon the Conquerors Prophecy | House of the Dragon
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
- In the first season of House of the Dragon season 2 I made a video about Aegon the Conqueror’s dream of the White Walkers and one topic I touched on was the curious surrender of the last King of Winter Torrhen Stark to Aegon the conqueror. In my video, I theorized that Aegon shared his dream of death coming from beyond the wall with Torrhen and their shared purpose led the king of winter to bending the knee. In this first episode, HOTD has given me in particular a bounty of information that goes a long way to confirming my suspicions about the words that passed between Aegon and Torrhen.
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It would be really funny if everyone spent 30 years theorizing why Benjen went to the wall only to have it be because he literally just drew the short straw
It was always the timing that puzzled me. At the time, Ned only had one legitimate son. They'd just been through a war where the Lord and heir had been killed to kick off that war. He was second in line of succession with no clear third without going to various distant cousins out there somewhere.
😅
@@carlrood4457I’ve seen a theory that he helped Lyanna run away with Rhaegar and then he knew that lead to a war that killed thousands, so he went as a way of atonement for his own guilt.
@@justicedunham4088 I’ve seen the same theory, and it makes sense because he was the closest to her, and also young enough not to understand the ramifications of what was happening.
The stone theory is still funny though.
@@lyamainu only hole though is that there was no winter between Robb’s birth and the start of GoT. Unless Benjen drew the stone years earlier before the war started and post-ponned his taking of the black because there must be a Stark in Winterfell.
The Starks don’t remember Aegons dream because the mad king killed the two men who knew. Ed was a second son.
I was about to say the same thing. Either that, or Ned didn't get a chance to pass it on.
@@shannonwaysNo Ned didnt know or he would have listened to and questioned the deserter that he beheaded, he would have grown up maybe hearing stories..and he was always saying winter is coming, but not enough to know what they were really going to face.
@@leannewilson6042 You're right. I agree.
Aegon telling Torrhen the prophecy would fit exactly with many aspects the Starks have believed for many generations. It's very reasonable to think Torrhen thought with Westeros united under Aegon it would be far better equipped against the other(s) than only House Stark and a handful of miscreants at the wall.
I wonder if it is that Aegon told Torrhen about the prophecy or if they each had pieces of information that made sense when put together. I also think the dreams are more symbolic than people are thinking. I wonder if Torrhen was able to fill in missing information on what the threat actually is, the North remembers and all that.
I just commented to wonder the same thing!
We might never know, and I kinda like that, but it would be fun to find out for sure.
Wall and winterfell build before aegon conquest so they may new before the dream of aegon or this knowledge was missed through years from starks like the dream of aegon for targariens
I actually really like this addition and it does make sense that it is gone by the start of game of thrones. The Starks actually had a succession crisis during the time of Dunk and Egg. It would make sense that the practice of offering Stark men to the Wall as a tithe would stop after this crisis.
i vaguely remember a promo photo of jace having the dagger with him, so maybe rhaenyra will tell him about the prophecy soon enough
Ohh interesting, I must've missed that! Curious how they would get the dagger away from Aegon....
@@JoeMagician
so i can't find that image now. i might be mistaken and it could just be aegon haha
Nope, Aegon has it and stabbed the table after being furious his son was killed
Well, she told him.
The starks knew long before the targaryens even existed
Yep they did but the book doesn’t explain that the show didn’t either
I'm a bit upset that we didn't get more north and stark time
Me too i doubt well see them now till the end of the dance..
This is definitely not me coping about not getting Sara Snow
gonna get the Winter Wolves at least
Whos complaining. Just because somebody makes a statement doesn't mean it's a complaint. Did I says the episode was crap.. no I just said I was upset cuz I wanted to see more starks. The episode was great
I saw a post on x that this was Cregan Stark's first and last appearance this season. Sad times
It seems quite obvious that the knowledge was lost on the Targaryen and on the Stark sides due to succession crisis. The obvious case are the Targaryens, where the profecy basically _cannot_ have passed to Aegon III, since he was likely too young to be told, but even if - the step from Baelor I to Aegon IV and from Maekar I to Aegon V are other reasonable backup candidates. At the same time, it is unlikely that Eddard would have been told by Rickard, even if Rickard knew: Brandon was the heir, and Ned had been in the vale since forever....
And to think this Targaryen-Stark disconnection came to a boiling point with the Mad King killing Rickard is the catalyst event for A Song of Ice & Fire. It really fits like a puzzle piece. The dark twist of fate causing Targaryen and Stark to become enemies also brought the events that made Jon to live in the North and join the nights watch.
It could even work the other way, you start Robert's Rebellion, and immediately the Starks in play are cut down to one who wasn't considered an adult yet and one who came of age outside Winterfell, in The Vale. And if so, this could explain why Lyanna went along with Rhaegar, that he's talking about prophecies and she's got knowledge of The Others that corroborates it, in a replay of Torrhen Stark and Aegon.
I think it’s plausible that the Starks knew about the Dream and passed it down themselves. It would even make sense if they knew about it right up to the rebellion and that Rickon and Brandon dying held even bigger impact than thought. The whole “There must always be a Stark in Winterfell” always struck me as important as well. It might have even be why the Wall suddenly starts failing in GOT times. If the Starks are feeding a magic barrier with their blood by staying in Winterfell it’s completely possible they realised Aegon’s dreams were legit and important.
A Magician is NEVER late. Good eye last time Joe
Fairly certain this same knowledge of prophecy is why Benjen joined the Night's Watch too, even though that left Ned as the only remaining adult Stark. Benjen was very close with Lyanna....Rhaegar would have told Lyanna about the prophecy...and she likely told Benjen. I think he joined the watch to try and prepare it....but he didn't tell anyone because, by that time, nobody believed, and all he had to go on was his sister's word. That, and it certainly seems like part of the prophecy is that as few people as possible should know about it - sorcery being a sword without a hilt. Everyone who knows of it tells as few people as possible to pass it on - perhaps as an attempt to prevent it from being self-fulfilling, as we've seen with other prophecies?
The Starks were no longer doing the whole 1/10th of the household goes to the Watch by Ned's time...there must have been a break in the tradition by that point....we know with the Targaryen's that they lost the prophecy due to everyone who knew of it dying during the Dance (and that Rhaegar must have found it while reading, likely from Daenys' personal journal.) I wonder when the Starks lost it?
I’m going to go on a limb and probably say it was lost in the generation before Rickard ned’s father, not by his grandfather per se, but around that time was the war of the nine Kings, who knows who died in that war from the north and there’s a possibility that someone didn’t get an opportunity to say something to someone before they died, and the person who took over as Lord of Winterfell was too young to know that they needed to do it.
Starks only provided old fighters in ep1, so I think there will be a second demand for more fighters, settled with the pact of ice and fire. I think we are getting Sara Snow later.
In the books, the northmen don’t arrive south until after most of the fighting is finished and join an army of green boys from the Riverlands and basically guide the realm back to peace. It is a months journey in summer to go straight from Winterfell to kings landing by horseback. let alone in winter, with many troops on foot, and gathering fighters from across the north.
Rhan is going to tell Jace about the prophecy and THEN Jace will go back to the North.
Not only that, only old fighters were provided, which Jace didn’t mention. I think he will have to do a second demand, and it will be sealed with the pact of ice and fire.
Love your graphics and the detail in your presentations this season. Your recordings are thoughtful and unique. Thank you!
I love seeing so many videos and shorts of yours in my feed so often good sir!
bravo! Great content my friend. House Strong, I mean Stark for the win!
great stuff as always, matt! can’t wait to see how larys plays out this season
Yours makes the most sense storytelling wise
That makes total sense.
It's literally the End of the World. Jon thinks to himself that once beyond the Wall they have entered a different world. Nobody believes me yet but in text the Catspaw dagger is already North when GoT opens. Sometime during THIS show THAT dagger goes North for protection and to be hidden.
Do you think they are just going to keep Cregan out of the show till the hour of the wolf? Since Cregan looks young still I think we could see a concurrent story running in Winterfell of Cregan‘s uncle taking power and Cregan having to get Winterfell back, which would explain why it took so long to get south. They could say his uncle is an Aegon supporter and a sexist who doesn’t think the rights of the woman should come before the eldest male as well as he’s upset Cregan sent his eldest son to man the wall and have the greens support his coup. It would be a clever way to parallel/contrast what’s happening down south while keeping the starks in the story for as long as possible.
I do think he's not coming back this season. What we've been shown in promos and casting information shows that the season will end likely before even the Winter Wolves arrive. There's a slight possibility of a check in with Cregan and the North and Roddy the Ruin near the end of this season, only slight though. They are hamstrung for time after losing two episodes versus season 1, and it seems a lot of the North got cut for that. In the behind the scenes they put in a lot of effort to rebuild the Wall sets showing I think they planned to do more with this.
Thank you for the video. I thought the episode was good. However, it felt a bit rushed. I am concerned because there are only 8 episodes in this season. Since "Fire and Blood" is not a novel but more of a history book, this is an opportunity for them to embellish the story. In short, show their writing talents. I saw a lot of missed opportunities in episode 1. I really did not like the dialog between Jace and Stark. It seemed so perfunctory. Almost as if they were not having a conversion but just talking out loud to themselves. And where is Sarah Snow!!!? I guess there are no dragon eggs in the Winterfell Crypts either. They could at least show the Dragon sitting in the Winterfell bailey or inner ward :-) The scene was more of an introduction of a chekhov's gun named Cregan Stark.
I didn’t dislike HotD S2E1 by any means. It was solid. But all other scenes paled compared to the scene at the Wall.
Love the video! This theory is one I thought a lot about last season& it was amazing to have more lore in the season opener. Do you think it possible that given the number of years between Daenys foretelling the Doom & it happening, Torrhen started the tradition because he assumed it meant the attack by the Others was imminent? Looking forward to more videos through the season :)
I feel Llewyn caused the White Walkers to attack by not telling Ned about the Stark's promise to provide bastard babies for them to continue their line. The North Remembers! But what do they remember, the pact they made to end the Long Night. The original Night King was a Stark, and they needed Stark blood to continue the line. When his father Rickard and brother Brandon died, the secret of the pact died with them, as Llewyn did know, he was specifically chosen to go to Winterfell because he had a Valyrian steel link, meaning he studied magic, and the Maesters needed him to study the magic of the North. He decided to not tell Ned about the pact, and through their magic, they heard about Jon, he should have been sacrificed to them to continue the pact that the WW would stay north and not bother men. Bran will figure this out because Llewyn died at the Weirwood tree and his memories will be absorbed by it.
Uh, I could see Sara Snow’s child being given to the Others to buy the peace, and that Rhaegar planned to do the same with his son of ice and fire, especially since by then the Targs have no dragons.
Interesting. Seems kind of far fetched but I always wonder what happened to cause the others to return. Like what was the trigger? It's been centuries, why now?
@@oswinhull4203I just asked that question a few weeks ago on TikTok and got told that it was the birth of dragons that made them attack, but the WWs were already on the move and attacking Wildlings BEFORE the dragons were born.
FINALLY someone who speakes about Jon Snow being destined to be a sacrifice to the Others. That's what Lyanna was asking when she told "Promise me, Ned". Rhaegar clearly convinced her of their mutual role in that ancient pact.
We were all fooled thinking that the promise was about saving Jon from Robert but we always forget that when Ned thought about Lyanna he always thought about BROKEN promises. Ned failed Lyanna cause he always thought that all magic related stuff was mere nonesense and he could never send a child to die in the far North, that's why those particular traits of Ned were always remarked. And also because he clearly did not know about the prophecy.
@@oswinhull4203Jon's birth AND the posterior failure of Ned to send him to the far North as a sacrifice was what brought them back. That's why in NED'S fever dream it's mentioned that the scene where he fights Arthur Dayne and Lyanna screamed his name, a bunch of petals "blue as the EYES of death" fell from the sky, It was symbolism used by GRRM to let us know that the Others were also seeing, waiting for that child..
Also, the last words from Arthur Dayne were "Now It beggins". He knew, as Rhaegar's best friend and member of One of the most ancient Houses that were probably involved in the Long Night, he knew that the solution to that upcoming war was Jon, that he being a child of ice and fire was what was needed to end the threat that Aegon foretold.
Now, There's some dark blood magic involved in the Wall and the far North, that's why Mel feels More power there. Jon was probably due to be a very important sacrifice, so I don't think he will resolve the conflict with His sword fighting the Others, he'll probably do It through some ancient ritual.
I recommend you to watch some of the videos from "Michal talks about stuff" I think he nailed in some important issues about the Endgame of this series, it's not about the Starks being the good Ones, I even agree with him that the Others are not even the evil to deal with. What broke the world then in the Past and now in the currrent timeline is blood magic, blood magic that was and still Is perverting nature magic and both Starks and Targaryen(valyrians) have being profiting from It. Cheers.
Jace is ready to know. Aegon the younger may never find out.
How is this not a huge continuity issue now? How did Dany fly her dragon north of the wall now?
It kinda sucks that there putting this work fleshing out the prince that was promised proficiency while we know it doesn’t amount to anything in the shows
Wow your back again. Quiet random. So glad 😀
Your theory is solid. I notice we mention Aegon and his dream/ prophecy but I hardly think Bran was the only Stark Green seers and perhaps Creegan Stark had the ability too. So you have a dragon dreamer and a Green seer! None of which can be shared with mushroom or the maesters! It’s possible that the Targaryens knew about the Starks abilities but this information was lost by Jahaerys’ time and rediscovered by him and his queen. The GOT universe does focus a lot on memory. Just saying 😊
Gosh, I really wish I hadn't read F&B before watching the show. I'd have really enjoyed it.
This is awesome
The show runners of GoT really said "f centuries of foreshadowing and prophecy, go Arya ftw"
Apparently, a Targaryen need not be seated on the Iron Throne, just a disturbed kid with some random Valyrian dagger,
Will this lead to why Benjin Stark joined the watch? Him knowing EXACTLY who Jon is & how important he is
Very well could be! It might be back filling that from GOT. My tinfoil is Benjen protesting over Ned's hiding of Jon's identity, and his spreading rumors around Winterfell. But both work fine IMO.
@@JoeMagician I’ve never read any of the books. I’ve come to my own conclusion that, Benjin knew everything about Leahna & Raehgar, & maybe even helped/ hid the romance. Which would explain his swift departure from Winterfell to the Wall. How did Ned know where Leahna was? I believe Benjin knew all along. That’s my “tinfoil” theory. 😂🤔
@@scorpiofrancis1119 If Benjen also knew, that makes three of them in the North (Ned, Benjen and Howland Reed, not surprisngly, four character that are linked to the Persona of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, with Benjen being the most likely one).
Its possible Ned doesn't/didn't know about the prophecy, but Lyanna did (Told to her by Rhaegar) and she didn't only tell Benjen, but also Howland (Giving Howland another reason to travel to the Tower of Joy).
@@nickdentoom1173 Thanks...That's why this whole situation between the ones who knew/didnt know is so fascinating. I wish HBO would've have started a series, back when Neds father was King in the North. I really need to read the books...
It seems like Cregan already saw the first series but forgot that nobody in the first season believes in the white walkers, Ned beheads a guy for actually seeing one in the first episode.
The Starks had green seeing the implied equivalent of the Targs dragon dreams its quite possible he already knew. Also multiple times, Starks and Targaryens seem to be drawn to each other.
Blood and Cheese killed King Aegon's bastard nephew, not his son. Prince Aemond is the real father of those children!
i actually think this could hold to be true!
Love this theory
The man playing torien Stark is really goid at it he remibds me of a combo of John and Ned I like him he reminds me of a stark
I always find it intriguing that Dorne resisted with success against the dragons, while the north didn't even try. Even though it was bigger than the other kingdoms combined, less populated, rough, cold with very few supplies to go around. Sure they would lose the castles and the few poor settlements they had to dragonfire, but they could manage without.
And when the winter comes the seven gods together with the valiryan ones wouldn't be able to save the royal army from starving and freezing out in the snow.
Why don't the old men and extra mouths that traditionally go out on a "hunt" never to return at the start of winter just go to the wall and train people and be useful for free food?
That's a good question! I think some do, like Jeor Mormont where he gave up his seat to his son while still alive. Perhaps some do make their way up to the Wall if they have useful skills and can still do some good on the Wall. But I suspect the reason is to not be a burden on the Watch having to suddenly, on the onset of winter, feed and house and arm a whole bunch of new aged recruits. They have the same problems the entire North does, except magnified by their duties. It's kinda just shuffling the burden of their care from their families to the Watch.
Of course the Starks knew. They helped beat back the White Walkers and then built the Wall
Somehow, Daenerys's dragons didn't know that one does not simply enter the Gates of Mordor.
In fairness, the magic boundary of the wall had already been broken by that point. I dislike the way they did it too, but it's not a plot hole. That episode was especially dumb though.
bran broke it when he got touched by the night king
@@joetheblu3 But if whatever magic that keeps dragons south of the Wall and White Walkers north of it was neutralized by Bran getting marked by the Night King, why did the Night King need Viserion to dracarys part of the Wall at Eastwatch?
@@benjiskyler7836 Because it was still a huge physical obstacle. The only ways through were small gates, which could have been easily defended or simply filled with rocks.
@@benjiskyler7836 because he wanted to make a hole in it for his army, theres no way pass the wall without go through a door
In GoT didn't denaerys's dragon flew past wall??
Yeah
I’ve always thought that there had to be some sort of connection. It totally makes sense to me that the old guard who defined the realms of men from the others would somehow connect with the new. I’ve always felt that the King Who Knelt would only have accepted such a dishonor on the condition of defending for the greater good. Northerners are a stubborn lot.
Could make for a good excuse to start A Song of Ice and Fire, the animated series, sooner. Season one, A Game of Thrones.
Great
Strong upbringing
;)
So...what if the song of ice and fire isn't a literal song, but the prophecy and the interaction of the north and south and how they serve that prophecy. Kind of how the Dance is only a metaphorical dance. To me...that makes it much more far-reaching than Jon's parentage or his possible interactions with Dany.
🐉🐉🐉
#Stark🇮🇲❄️
The real question is how did Viserys know about about the prophecy? Assuming he learned it from Jahaerys, how did Jahaerys learn if Maegor was his estranged uncle and died on the throne?
The only other way is if Aegon I told his grandchildren (Jahaerys being one of them) which I doubt he would. The show runners created a huge plot hole that can't really be filled at this point.
There's another theory as Aegon told both his sons, and thus Aenys went depressed thinking about the end, while maegor thought of ruling with absolute power so he can produce army when needed. They both tried to get ready in their own ways
The reason torrhen knelt is because aegon shared his dream with him. Other kings would never agree to bow to a foreigner, even a valyrian, and send their men to the northern waste. Thats why aegon needed to conquer them. So when torrhen marched south with the strongest host the North had ever seen, maybe even stronger than the host, they repelled the long night. Rather then sending his 'bastard' brother with ice to slay the dragons at night after treating with them he instead decided to kneel to the man who brought the south to heel all so that they could send aid to the north when it was time. Makes sense since there's never lived a stark that forgot an oath, meaning that they probably also passed this secret from lord to heir, but cause of the tumultuous nature of the north this was lost to time much like the targarayens except they dragons did it to themselves with the aid of the hightowers. But the North was far bigger and wilder than the rest of the kingdoms combined.
Time traveling Bran can explain every retcon.
What sad , is that all the build up from the north fall flat because of DxD
What if the Stark knowledge of the dream ended when Ned's father and brother were executed?
Starks are one of the Ancient families frim the Age of Heroes that fought alongside the children of the forest to fight the Knight King.
I have aleays had this idea that Bran would change history by going back... eay back in the timeline and use someone to convice the rulers of all the kingdoms to do something similar to this, but with more people and resources. One big vhange would be that the Nights Watch would embrace thr family unit and create communities all throughtout the lands oenrd by the Watch. Then when we would get to the current time there would be this huge thriving support system for the Watch. The Watch would even be considered a "house" of a type. The Wall would be fully manned and equiped. Obviously this would change to much of the history, but it would be interesting. Especially if the next Long Night is stand still or we find out that its a cycle that must exist. Then in the last book GRRM could set up somrthing like this as part of future preparations for the next Long Night.
$10 say that torrhen actually bamboozled aegon to join the actual fight, seeing he had dragons and knowing the effects of fire on wights, starks knew what it was about, and knowing there had to be always a stark on winterfell, he bent the knee cuz he politicked the new king into the fray, kept basically his post and his family's role in the winter to come
in fact, he probably even got tax and levee cuts from being posted to "the realm"
Joning the Nights Watch use to be an honerable thing it wasn't always as bad as it was in G.O.T
I think its also curious how we start the show with a raven
My uncle has been GRRM's landscaper for over a decade. My uncle really doesn't care much about Game of Thrones but was a fanboy about the Magnum P.I. stuff George wrote. Anyway, I always bug my uncle to ask about certain questions I have about GOT. I can tell you for a fact that there is MUCH more to the story about Torrhen bending the knee. It ties in with Aegon's sister wife going missing in Dorne. I wish I could say more.
Well, my uncle works at Nintendo and he said Chris Pratt is going to play Zelda in the upcoming Zelda movie, so
samwell had to go to the watch to make his brother heir to the house, wasn't he the firtborn?
I tend to think Aegon asked Stark about the Wall. Stark hopefully gave the Targeryarn its history, the need for it and its creation. Quite possibly the King then revealed the dream and the 2 men agreed to work together when the time came.
Assuming Creegan knew, and only told his heir, the knowledge would have died with Ned’s father and brother.😢
I wonder if we’re going to get a quick “white walker” cameo this season….
Unlikely this season, but not impossible!
Where was this " Prophecy" in the book? Because i don't remember reading it, Edit: they gave people to the knights watch because the winters are so bad , a lot people starve
It stands to reason the walls magic had failed if Dani’s dragon and the others could cross.
So.. why are you here?
I drew the short straw…
😮 😢
😂
Do you think Torrhen already knew about the Others, and when finding out about Aegon's dream, they put the pieces together as a team?
"What -- you too?!" and
"So that's what it means?!"
3 Weirwood arrows = 3 dead dragons. Brandon Snow could have won that battle single handedly.
Why do Danys dragons cross the wall? They even know about the white walkers and they don’t care. Actively go to fight them. Why?
The writers of HOD have taken too much license with their writing...ANYTHING that veers away from the original source material by GRRM is not gospel.....just stop it.
I'm certain that's why he Bent
My Prince we fight death up here. Does it have blue eyes. (Nods Y) Yeah? See if this ends the undead. Undead what do you mean My Prince?. We know about you and Wargs in your family. See, the dragon bond is something like that. Mang we needa talk. Speak up Dawg. Naw you first you stark haired lizard boy.....
Looks like she hasnt told him
Unfortunatl\ely D&D messed all this up in season 8 of GOT
more likely aegon heard it from torrhen.
Why does the prophecy need to be kept secret?
I think you're center bullseye...
I hope so!
Nothing from the writers should give you anything.
Without some clarification, I find this new information to be a logistical nightmare and narratively non-sensical. It smacks of being more interested in symbolism over common sense. Are we to believe two armies with thousands of men and one side willing to be slaughtered rather than surrender just stood around for days/weeks/months while their two leaders went on a thousand mile road trip to have a conversation and look at the pretty snow?
And to think, after all of this build up, we ended up with one of the most anti-climatic, underwhelming endings of all time.
All for naught.
I kind of dislike cregan starks actor haha like why does he have red hair?? Starks are dark haired grey eyed
I dislike this new version of the events, it just serves to remove agency from the northern characters and prop up the Targaryens. Why for example Torrhen didn't have his own ultra-important profecy from Bran the builder down the generations?Why didn't he kneel on his own volition? This intriguing piece of world-building and characterization is just 'cuz targs said so bleh'
Jace seems like the most irrelevant major character in the show so far, so I'm not persuaded. 🤷♀
Love ya @JoeTheMagician
Both the Targaryens and the Starks knew the prophecy, though from different contexts. Bran the Builder did not construct the Wall on a whim. And the Targaryen lore is that when the great threat comes from beyond the Wall there must be a Targaryen on the Iron Throne. And the Stark lore is that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. The reasons for these rules have everything to do with the threat from beyond the Wall.