Ron Goes Apeshit on Tooth-borne Expanders
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
- Taken from Jaw Hacks Chat #12 w/ Daniel the Pianist
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I’m surprised that removable appliances are helping to rectify my previous orthodontic work. I had braces at 15, got teach extracted at 17, and finished everything at 18. I have 4 bi’s extracted and braces with rubber bands to close the teeth. Everything was fine until I turned 19. I noticed facial esthetic and functional problems, which I ignored. By 20, health problems began to develop. At 21 things started changing in a negative direction with my teeth and face. At 22, I decide to consult multiple orthodontists to help with these issues and I manage to find one. Started with a Schwartz removable expander (gained ~5-7mm width expansion) with great results in 1 year. Arch is much wider and I no longer have black boxes in my smile, all my teeth show with a great wide smile! Also, my facial asymmetry improved greatly. Yay, I got more “width” space for my tongue and I developed a gap between my front teeth. I have enough horizontal space for my tongue, but now my tongue needs more vertical space (since I realize that I push my tongue forward on the front teeth). To fix this, I now have a removable expander that will open spaces where my previous teeth were extracted and push the front teeth a sagittal (forward) direction . It’s a slow process like the Swartz, however I’m noticing more forward growth of the mid face than before. My lips are getting more support, my under eye bags are decreasing, my laugh lines and eye wrinkles are much less noticeable, my eyes look more upright and less droopy; overall my face improved. Everything is going great with the guidance of my orthodontist. Teeth aren’t wiggly or hurt when eating hard foods. Things are improving and my teeth felt normal during both treatments. So far, I have 3 mm of space where 4 teeth once sat, an I have a few more mm of space to go before the spaces are completely open. have to decide on what to do about the open spaces in the future; Implants? or moving the back teeth forward? It’s a decision that I have to make with the proper expert advice from my orthodontist. Point in this whole post is that I don’t think tooth borne appliances are bad choices in comparison to fixed appliances. It’s the method and protocols at which the patient follows by an orthodontist. Removable appliances can either improve the face or make it worse (if the patient is not guided properly by the doctor). The patient must practice proper oral and body posture to maintain the maxilla so that it grows properly, whether with or without any appliances that help guide teeth movement and facial growth.
you have my exact problem, im glad your getting it fixed, how many teeth do you have now? i have 28, even with 4 bi's extracted because my wisdom teeth grew in
How much did you turn the swartz appliance in a week?
Did u get implants on the premolars?
What are the health improvements that you noticed after expanding?
@@AznVi3tx I notice that the prominence of my face is more forward than before. Asymmetries are evening out and I can see a positive tilt in my eyes. The skin on my face is more taut and less saggy than before especially in the cheek area. My lips have much better support esp. from the profile view. My laugh lines softened alot. Currently ~4+ mm open in each space and I do notice more tongue space than ever before. Better nasal breathing. It was nearly impossible to mew with mouth shut before the spaces were opened. Now I can feel what it truly means to have that tongue to palate contact with teeth and mouth closed. Something I noticed are these two distinct dimples in my cheek area right under my tear troughs, one on each side right where my cheekbones are. Whenever I smile big those dimples really show on my cheekbones plus there’s a line running from each dimple to the region on my cheek where those spaces are opened up. I think the reason for this is because there are no teeth there yet to stimulate the bone to tone up the muscle in that area, hence those dimples. It’s not ugly, but it looks different on my face. I feel like once the implants are there those dimples will fill out and my cheeks will be full again. Lots of improvement so far in terms of nasal breathing capacity and my posture. But the overall biggest difference I’ve noticed is the prominence of my maxilla and how much of a difference only 4 mm of forward growth can achieve. I still need to be around 7-8mm open before I get implants and by then I feel my face will look very different from now in a positive way.
My sister got verbally abused by this one doctor who gave her homeoblock after she complained of the very things you mentioned. Terrible cruel world we are in.
Aka he told her she was wrong and she had a meltdown
What age was she?
The price in the end is what makes you choose a less effective approach.
MSE is 10 times more expensive than RPE in my country.
The misunderstanding your guest has at 4'23" is that the roof of the mouth is alveolar bone. It is not.
Good Job Ron. It has also taken me years to make sense of the problems and solutions for Adults. Your videos are very helpful. Even well meaning Orthos who specialize in Airway don't fully understand how to create a expansion solutions for adult airway and TMJ problems. it is a bit of a new frontier and all are learning. I tried a vivos appliance and had to stop after 4 weeks. I was getting heart attack in my sleep and had to stop. Not totally sure why. But it went away when I stopped wearing the appliance. It covers the whole upper palate and is quite thick. So I think it was leaving no room for my tongue and causing it to fall back in my throat and choke. But Vivos also keeps a fixed palate height while it expands. So the bone must either grow else the suture must separate during expansion. The palate is not able to drop down using that appliance. Which I consider a fatal flaw for someone with very high palate.
😂 You were getting a heart attack? Ok calm down there buddy you weren't getting an actual heart attack
It’s scary how little there is on these appliances. Wouldn’t you want everyone to know how great your invention is if it does all the remarkable things it claims?
I got the DNA and although it didnt destroy my face or mouth it was a massive waste of money. The dentist then suggest Schwartz and she also specializes in AGGA LOL
I heard she also sold Jack the beans to grow his beanstock.
@@JawHacks hey bro, I got the DNA and it fucked everything up. Do u know of a malpractice doctor that's focuses on these sleep apnea appliances? I would like to take vivos to court asap
@@MrGreen-dp4oz How did it fuck everything up? How quickly did you expand?
@kjellman96 I am on my 1st month with it and I am nervous reading all of this. Is it true if you expand to quickly it can hurt and ruin your teeth? About how many days or weeks should you expand?
This video came up at the perfect time. I was considering DNA, but after hearing and seeing some guy’s horror story I quit. It grew his midface and it’s long. Changed his skull for worse.
I remember at 16 going trough all the process of putting on braces with the promise that then id also get a toothborn expander, only to be told WHEN EVERYTHING ELSE WAS PAID FOR, that it would likely have no effect on me, i inmediately canceled the treatment, that was some bullshit that cost my mom 500 bucks
I was looking into doing one of those type of devices and had the appointment set up and all that, and I think part of the reason I didn't go through was your videos. Also reddit where a lot of people had reported some pretty scary problems. Glad I didn't.
@Devin Woods mostly dental problems. A lot of teeth tipping type stuff. Man. I don't think I saw a face elongation report. That sounds pretty bad. Good luck to your friend.
Hi Ronald, will you ever make a video about the orthotropic appliance biobloc? Sounds a little like the DNA tbh.
I am at the tail end of my DNA appliance treatment and wish I had done MSE. What a lot of money wasted, when there was a superior alternative. However, it did make more room for my tongue and my oral airway. It feels like my nasal airway has slightly expanded too, which contradicts what you've said, Ron. I have a deviated septum, so there are multiple factors. It's hard to tell though what is what. Frustrating... I wish I had done MSE instead. It would also have been a lot faster and less damaging--wow. I just trusted my ortho, because she was the first person who I met that understood holistic head/face/airways/teeth/tongue issues. It was a mistake not to shop around more. She didn't provide MSE; only tooth-bourne appliances.
Hi Rose. I knew about MSE but thought it was too scary and invasive. So I found a Vivos provider and am about 18 months with that device. Like you, I've seen facial expansion and also upper palate space, but I'm not sure if it's actually helped with my nasal airway. I guess the CT scan I did before and after would determine that. Like you, I wish I just did the surgery. But I'd also be scared that it would have made my face lopsided like lots of people say.
@@abennetthey man I’m thinking about it how did it go
What age were you?
made a channel to comment that some guy got messed up using homeoblock which is like the dna. he got a really long midface and got narrower. looks like his friend beat me to it. he had been speaking w me for a while on a forum and he really deserves to be heard
What are your thoughts on the ALF Appliance? Its a tooth borne expander but Dr John Mew said its a good appliance because its gentle.
Alf is made from rmo company Elgiloy 14" Straight Wire, Round (yellow). It is very soft and exerts great strength. The most important concepts of Alf are "light force." However, it also fails to produce dramatic skeletal changes. Even so, it is an appliance that has many advantages, and unlike "agga," it does not strain your teeth much.
but, can the tongue expand the maxilla for structural change in adults? I have been told by some they got cranial change and measured themselves, palate wider etc. can the tongue expand but just takes longer for an adult?
I'm about 18 months with a Vivos. And I have seen facial structure changes, which look good, and I do have spaces in my teeth now, but I think maybe 50% of the change in my upper palate space is from the teeth moving. I agree. I do have much more space for my tongue in the roof of my mouth, but I do think there is teeth tipping.
Thanks for sharing Aaron
Update?
offtopic: can handstands build your skull ?
Not all bone is created equal. Bone mineral density tests are used to diagnose osteoporosis and osteopenia. I wonder if those with less dense bone would have more success with tooth born expansion.
I think so too
I got a big tooth gap with a tooth borne expander, but I also got a bit of flaring.
Great video as always Ron
Thank you glad you enjoyed
I am a patient of Kasey Li's, and to be clear - he does not like the MSE at all. He thinks the risk of complications is too high and that his EASE device is far superior. I agree with him
What are the complications of MSE?
@@bigdino475 asymmetric expansion, nasal damage, worsened aesthetics. Watch Jaw Hacks chat with Ryan to see risk of asymmetric expansion
Indeed but the risks of MSE can be mitigated with the right doctor and the right surgical assist.
@@blockbuster1979 what about tinnitus and TMJ issues
@@JawHacks I guess. Not sure who that doctor/ surgical assist would be. I had my treatment with Ting and Vaughan and the result was a disaster
ive seen much worse results from MSE than schwarz. the last 5 cases of users MSE before + afters on reddits orthotropics sub seemingly have worse facial aesthetics + symmetry.
What’s your thought on bioblock? It’s similar to these tooth born expanders but allows for proper tongue posture, and allows for expansion of the lower arch at the same time. This second reason is why I’m considering bioblock over MSE.
Biobloc for for kids? Yes for adults no but MSE for adults, yes.
Once you're fully grown the MSE is the only way to expand. Your maxilla will not get bigger with bioblock, bioblock will straighten teeth maybe but bonafide bone growth is impossible
@@user-wu6eq1ty1y what about James Nestor saying about his increase of bone to his jaw and eye socket in his book ‘breath’
@@Patrick-rr2qw can you give more details on that?
@@cymonka3492what qualifies as “kids” and adults? I’m 16 should I consider a toothborne expander like Biobloc or go straight for MSE?
Stage 1 biobloc did no expansion over 9 months.
Mandibule biobloc broke in losing force against mandibule.
Did xrays and tomography before and afters.
you did bioblock? what is your age?
@@Changenow-ze2slif im 17, its good decision to wear bioblock?
That’s absurd the DNA appliance is amazing. Just look at the numerous testimonials about how it messed people up in the most unimaginable ways. 😂 lawsuit incoming
So does MSE stand for mini screws expansion or maxilliary surgical expansion. Also where would a Hyrax with screws in the palate stand? (2 or 4 screws?) I started Invisilign with a narrow upper jaw and am now realising, they should have sent me for an expander as well. I'm from Czechia and the terminology seems a bit different.
Maxillary skeletal expander.
Surely that's all the tongue does though, the best thing about tooth borne ie biobloc is that the effects are more natural and holistic as basically it is doing the job that the tongue would, sped up. Then the tongue can hopefully continue good posture and positioning, the tropic premise, and you continue to improve. Basically what John Mew says.
What about surgically assisted tooth borne expansion? An overall good approach? Less risk of asymmetry?
Does this include bioblock appliances?
You have to free up all the cranial bones with sutural release techniques.
What is the best way to make the suture flexible?
you think NCR would do it?
Does this include VIVOS?
I need my lower jaw to move forward a little. What are the option I have as a 27 years old? I was considering DNA. I don't want surgery either.
I'm in the same situation. Did you find a solution?
@@cardinal9706 I had a deep bite, so I did Invisalign with palate expander. They used resin to move the lower jaw slightly forward. I had seen a video on UA-cam about doing something like this before. If I manage to find it, will put the link here.
I did MSE and wish I had done DNA instead. I had really significant negative complications from MSE
Trust me you don't, I got DNA and all it did was flare my teeth out. That's thousands lost on an alliance that only negatively affected my teeth both health and aesthetics-wise.
@@strictlylethal yeah, hard to say. I did MSE and it made both my breathing and aesthetics worse than before. I wish I had done something else.
MSE made your breathing worse? Like your nasal breathing? Did you have a prior nasal surgery that got disrupted? Never heard anyone say it made their breathing worse.
@@JawHacks MSE with surgical assist caused nasal damage for me that worsened my breathing and sleep apnea. I did have a prior nasal surgery. The outcome was devastating as my fatigue and poor sleep was already a problem and now it's worse.
@@Squeakydoor98038 No I did not have a turbinate reduction - it was a septoplasty. I'm still researching my case and consulting with doctors, but the consensus seems to be that the surgeon who performed my MSE surgical assist made mistakes, resulting in damage to my nose. Overall, I got worsened breathing and worsened aesthetics form this MSE treatment. It was a disaster. I get some people have positive experiences but this is a very risky treatment.
What about the Biobloc? Dr Mew says in his expansion video that it's the best expansion device even for adults...
It works wonders in children, but forget about it if your an adult. Especially if you're an adult male. It's too late by the time you're 20 something years old
@@user-wu6eq1ty1y dang I went to an orthrorpics provider and they gave me that..I’m 19 though worry that it won’t work now 😬
@@angvvvll is it working?
@@rzlk6647 Yea but it expands so slow. I started off at 37 mm back in November 2022 and today as of June I believe it’s about 40 mm.
@@rzlk6647 But my ortho said slow expansion is better than fast because fast expansion can relapse
I got a homeoblock appliance one month ago and they gave me the POD appliance for the upper jaw. Would you say that the homeoblock is also a teeth borne appliance that does more harm than good? Would you advise me to take it off to don’t get any damage? I have respect for Dr Belfor and his work but I don’t want to suffer from teeth damage and after one month I already feel heavy pressure on the tooth. Would be glad for a response.
How did it go ?
I’m in the same boat just got my homeoblock? What were your results because this guy has me worried and wanting to switch to an mse. Please let me know
How did your teeth hold up
@@hanksaskitzo178 how is the homeoblock going for you
Let's say you had a misaligned bite but the amount of expansion you believed you needed was VERY small, im talking tiny in comparison to what most people want to achieve . Would you advocate toothborne in those cases.
Good question, I am in this camp and would like to know. I am not going to get jaw surgery for 3-4 mm advancement or pay for MSE. I just want enough space to rest my tongue.. is that too much to ask? Lol
SAME QUESTION
@@dazed_and_amazed1296 I think Sfot is the way to go
@@rzlk6647 Sfot would be perfect for this case
Thank the lord I went with MSE and not tooth borne
God is good
homeoblock and dna are one and the same with minor changes.
Low key
AGGA aka “fagga”
Agga kadabra
What about ALF ??
Can MSE cause tinnitus? Or Invisalign?
If it messes up your bite badly enough and screws up TMJ then yes I would imagine so.
@@JawHacks so the will aligning my bite help?
Is Vivos the creator of DNA appliance? Or Vivos is something else
Ron can u talk about biobloc?
מצטרף לשאלה
none of those apliances will train your tounge to be on the palate.. thats the root cause of your face and bone and all asymetries..
Bimax.
So interesting - nasal expansion is what we want, not only oral expansion for sleep apnea. Ugh. Oops.
Haha you'll be fine hang in there. Sounds like you're doing ok.
I was just reading Breathe by the same guy promoting this garbage on the Joe Rogan podcast. How lucky for belfor to get free advertising on the biggest podcast there is. Pathetic
This guy isn’t a doctor he’s missing the science behind some of these appliances.
I bet you "followed the science" and supported illegal lockdowns, 6 feet social distancing, social bubbles, useless mask wearing covered in bacteria, and illegal mandatory mRNA injections.
you either have no idea what you're talking about or you have a vested financial interest against the DNA appliance.
Jesus so much hate for this im lucky i didnt cop
Facts
Any one know of a good malpractice lawyer that specializes in these sleep apnea appliances? I would like to start a class action suit asap
Why what happened during your treatment? I was looking into getting a dna for myself, especially because some of my teeth are tipped inward and I have trouble breathing and no space for my tongue. Would be awesome if you could tell me about your experience!
@@Luna5555555550Wonder why these guys haven't answered back on ppl asking about their experience 😂