Pt 6 - Dr. Ting's Thoughts on AGGA / FAGGA and "Growth" Appliances
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2024
- Part 6 of my interview with Dr. Ting, the world's most experienced MSE provider.
What is MSE?
• How MSE Works
Dr. Richard Ting, DDS
/ ting_ortho
www.tingortho....
/ rtingdds
My website:
jawhacks.com
Instagram:
/ ronaldead
Donate:
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Your 2nd point about the alternative ortho providers (AGGA included) is something I have noticed. I think there is a mystique around the idea of a “healthy” or “whole” form of orthodontics that gets perpetuated and makes the marketing more appealing. There is an image created by some of these dentists that they look at things orthodontists don't, and so will solve your problems. But in my experiences, they're ignorant to the full experience of what the appliance will do.
On another note, I was given a bill of nearly $25k for AGGA and all the related treatments for it. I didn’t move forward for many reasons, your videos being one. I just wanted to mention it since it’s even higher than the ranges you and Dr. Ting mentioned.
Orthodontists ain't necessarily Angels either most of them don't care about aesthetics and airway function especially the latter.
@@spiscold50 Right, but in my experience it has only been dentists who make these bold claims with these appliances. Many orthodontists have their own ignorance as well.
@@mazdakmomen8903 Agreed due to my past experience.
agreed. i also lost over 20k$ for an agga treatment and got back 10k but only because the doctor had been suspended for malpractice.... i wish i never stumbled upon agga videos and never did the treatment. my two upper frontal incisors almost lost all their roots and my 6 upper teeth are pretty much mobile now I can barely eat with them. wish i never fell into the trap... agga destroyed my face and made it longer, my gummy smile got worse and it became even more difficult to close my mouth..... bite is completely off... 😢
Why don’t you interview Dr. Singh about DNA appliances I’m genuinely curious
You have them absolutely uncovered Ron! Thank you for this, genius:)
Thank you for shinning the light on this appliance.
19 years old, thinking about doing vivos dna, I don’t like how MSE is so invasive but both treatments have proven results so I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place
Mse is better pain is beauty
Since you’re splitting the suture, is that being filled in with bone or scar tissue 😬. Also there’s complications that could come up with doing stuff like this
I addressed the scar tissue/bone issue in a prior video called something like "what is the fate of the mid palatal suture?"
If you are 19 MARPE or MSE are the way to go, DNA will just push your teeth
Sergio Marroquin what did you do, how are the results?
There was this German woman with a UA-cam channel documenting her Agga journey, do you know what happened to her?
i know who you're talking about. i don't know what happened to her but i hope she's well and hasn't suffered damage.
I don't know the German woman but my friend Alyssa Luck is documenting her AGGA journey as well if you'd like one more person to follow!
Thank you for your dedicated work Ron! Greetings from Germany. Orthodontic disaster here 👋
Hey Ronald, loved the talk. I would like to let you know I have finished biobloc stage 1 upper expansion at 20/21 years old and achieved 6mm of upper expansion (3mm gaps where my premolars used to be) with ZERO side effects. I am also about to have my lower expanded to uncrowd one frontal incisor on my mandibular arch.
How are you going to expand the lower ?
congratulations. at your age i believe you would be on the outer limits of being a good candidate for this type of expansion.
@@nemonemo8430 local orthotropist. Biobloc is better if you do not need as much expansion
@@yazed410 getting prescribed a lower expander im not sure
Neat! I'm 23 and was looking into getting Biobloc. Leaning heavily towards MSE instead after hearing from Ronny :)
How are you expanding the lower?
If some people get change from mewing. What if proper oral posture is important to do along with toothborne? I know some teeth tipping will occur but someone told me they cured their apnea and claimed scans showed expansion. that pressure is applied on the palate as well as teeth and they felt cranial crunching or something
mse doesn’t expand forward either so that’s why those seem appealing
Brilliant! So content dense. Interviews like this with masters in the field like Dr. Ting provide so much real value to your audience as I know you're well aware. If you can secure more interviews like this we can learn a hell of a lot as a community from the very best.
thank you, yes i will try to do more interviews.
@@JawHacks Thank you!
AGGA is camouflage orthodontics.
Learned this the HARD way.
Maybe if I was a teen...
I'm 43
Love the information coming out of this video on the misinformation in this area of dentistry!
great, thank you Dr. Zuk
@@JawHacks Your painful journey will help others avoid a dangerous dentist scam linked to corruption of the continuing education system of dentists. Thank you for digging into this get rich quick niche and exposing the misleading information of fraudulent 'jaw growers'. Keep the profession honest and everyone benefits in the long run.
did u talk about facemask and ccw rotation with dr ting?
curious as well
@@prodtenace it's coming up in the next few days.
@@JawHacks thanks for the reply! I'm currently wearing facemask along with MSE lol, that's why I really wanna find out.
From 2 months of FM (21 to 22 hours a day- on average) I don't see much change (if at all), even with the sutures split. Besides that, MSE made wonders for my airway, I really recommend it. I have gone from 36 to approximately 45mm in IMW very quickly (two months, I stopped increasing it). Now I'm hoping to get at least a bit of counter-clockwise rotation, but I haven't observed much, possibly cause I started using FM three to four weeks after applying the MSE? Who knows..
@@prodtenace Keep us all updated, very interesting
@@MylesDunne Trying my best, a reminder would help xd
Pls ask if facemask and mse can be used in adult to correct a minor class iii and if yes does the doc have some sample of cases he treated! Thanks you
it's coming up soon
Hi Ron, thanks for your videos. I have been in AGGA for almost 10 months. After realizing all of this info now about how damaging it can be, I am anxious that it’s too late for me. Not sure what to do.
I heard AGGA will relapse, all the growth you got will go away when it's removed. Only way I can think to prevent relapse is to get 2 implants to fill in the AGGA gaps (cost 7-8 k). I think that's been done, but don't know results, but it makes sense that it wouldn't relapse if implants are put in to fill the gaps.
@@cooljazzr I have an appt for consult and the providers have sworn up and down that they don't move teeth but bone hmmmmmm.
too me it's now clear mse is the first move for adults with underdeveloped maxilla. You've cleared up a lot of grey areas for many, I which I new all thsi before i had leforte
I wish i knew it before i started too. thanks for the feedback
So if the MSE tips your maxilla outward, would that narrow your nose bridge?
Im so confused now. I was supposed to have sarme and double jaw surgery but i recently found a facebook group that says I can be fixed without surgery as surgery doesnt work. AGGA was suggested for me but not really sure how it can move both jaws forward which is what i need as i have an very underdeveloped jaws and narrow palate. Now I have come across these videos against AGGA and dont know what to do. Can you you please tell me what the difference is between SARME and MSE? and do you think the only thing for me to do is surgery. Thanks
I was told by a legitimate dr. that surgery can cause re absorption of bone and that Dr. is not sure of growth devices either, it's a bit disheartening.
Hey Ron. Great interview. Just wondering, where do you stand on the Herbst appliance?
Difference between agga and fagga? I thought they were the same
One of em’ is a lil bit homoerotic
Do you have a list of legitimate MSE providers? I only have the LVI school Agga school here in NV. In Nevada I'm close to CA, Utah and AZ and willing to traveI lost so much money to Myobrace, Swartz $5000 had a Tongue tie release and Phase 1 LVI Agga $11,000.00. Thank you
Hi Phyllis you had a schawz expander and it caused you problem? I'd love to know. I was recommended the 4d schawrz and now I'm reconsidering after watching videos
I agree re: agga but still not understanding why dna is so bad. A lot of people show increased bone mass after dna, proper expansion, significant airway improvements (with CT scans to prove it) so where's the snake oil? Or is this mostly about agga because it's what you're most familiar with? Thanks for the great channel
it's a toothborne appliance that has the same limits and dangers that any toothborne appliance does. pushing on teeth is not the best way to expand in adults. children, maybe.
@@JawHacks in another video, Dr ting mentioned that mse also pushes on teeth to some extent and some of the gains in overall mm can be attributed to tipping. Isn't this true?
@@museitup4741 good luck with your DNA appliance
@@JawHacks This tells me that you haven't really studied that one at all ... and since it looks kinda like a Haas expander or whatever your first doc used on you, it must be the same thing.
Would it surprise you to learn that when the appliance is in the mouth, by default it is NOT actually making contact with the roof of the mouth, or the front teeth?
I know you have a passion for this space, so I would encourage you to expand your thinking and give it a fair amount of research. Vivos has a video channel on Vimeo, you can see Dr. Singh go into the science on how it all works. Shows measured results. Over 10,000 patients treated with it over the last decade. Teeth aren't tipping and flaring.
It may not be the right solution for everyone, that's true. But I think you've written it off prematurely just based on looks. I know you like this stuff, I'm telling you - you should definitely dig deeper on this one. See if you can figure out how they're measuring an average of 2 cubic centimeters of new bone volume throughout the entire maxilla, if they're just moving teeth orthodontically. See if you can figure out how they're obtaining 15-20% more sinus cavity volume, if they're just moving the teeth.
Hope you're doing well, and your recovery is coming along.
I've probably spent as many hours trying to understand the science behind Vivos' approach ... as Ronald has probably spent studying MSE. My personal opinion - he hasn't looked into it, because his first treatment was an acrylic appliance and therefore he (erroneously, IMO) assumes the mechanisms at work are all the same.
But this is why I don't make comments about MSE ... because I know I haven't studied it in-depth.
The DNA inventor has shared and published plenty of data on sinus expansion, nasal airway expansion, sleep apnea AHI reductions, increases of maxillary bone volume, and more. You can't create that with something like an Invisalign (the functional equivalent of "pushing on teeth").
Curious if this includes Biobloc Orthotropics treatment? Seeing as this is a controversial topic amongst orthodontists and it was created by two orthodontists.
Following
wow ron i love your comment on who the agga is marketed towards. so hilarious and so so true. yikes
thank you, it is unfortunately true.
I found out about you from trying to research procedure done at tmj+. The Agga and another device. She gave me red flags because she doesn’t accept insurance and has a discount program where you pay 400 to get 500 off your devices. She charges 13k to 30k in total. Surgery would be 40k and my insurance covers this as well as appliances. So I found this odd. Glad I became suspicious because I will never look at agga again.
Moi was the Dr. trying to give you surgery as well as devive?
Just learning about mse. So the only solution for fixing the lower jaw is surgery? 🤨
love your video
I had no idea AGGA is so expensive. That's insane!! I'm sorry you had to go through all that :( Thank you for saving so many other people from making that investment.
absolutely. by the way, everyone check out Danielle's new UA-cam channel
@@JawHacks Aaaa thank you!! ☺️
Isn’t the MSE more invasive/force and don’t the other appliances have the same forces the tongue does as an expander; and both together will expand the palate like it’s supposed to be? can you do a tongue tie revision first with 32 intermolar? I hope so. Thanks :)
Oh and doesn’t the MSE just expand out laterally compared to others.
What happen to part 7
Yeah these dentists are in a very NARROW reality tunnel
Mse doesnt give forward growth at all at least agga gives something more like that
How much is jaw surgery for a generic down swung maxilla?
I've heard of jaw surgery costing about $20k-$80k. Some or all of it may be covered by insurance, especially if you test positive for sleep apnea.
right. insurance could cover it for other reasons besides sleep apnea too. for example there are certain metrics regarding the structural relationship of the upper and lower jaws which could justify insurance coverage, depending on the insurer.
@@JawHacks Wow, that's neat!!
That’s really good to know thank you!