I knew you’d respond, and was hoping you would, but I didn’t expect one so quickly! Looking forward to working through this when things settle down. Love you and appreciate your work, Gavin!
@@TruthUnites 8:40 Not true: There is something called "Perfect Contrition" which can be outside of Confession, and it does obtain forgiveness of mortal sins! Also, what is Mortal sin is a bit harder to flesh out then you think, Jimmy Akin has a good article on that. But If you are not sorrowful for your MORTAL sins, how do you even love God? PS I Would love to see you have a conversation with Seraphim Hamilton (Kabane), He is one of those Apostolic Christians that truly explains the Gospel perfectly, Justification, the Atonement theory and the rest. As much educated you are, I still think you don't understand fully what Catholics and Orthodox believe in this area.
They are tied together, it is because of the way that they are tied together, that we can embrace the authority of the Papacy over the authority of Protestant denominations. If you see how typology works, you can see that the Catholic Church is actually just a continuation of the old davidic kingdom.
I think it's interesting how Ortlund rejects Isaiah 22 and the keys of authority given to him as having any sort of significance when we fast forward to keys being given to Saint Peter. He may not find this a strong typology, but we can't just dismiss it either. It does parallel the New Testament and the authority of the Papacy nicely.
Read the book of Hebrews. There is no more Levitical priesthood, and the Melchizedek priesthood is what Jesus alone holds. All believers are priests also, by the way, offering up spiritual sacrifices to God through Christ. (See 1Peter 2:5)
I'm only 2 minutes in and I've watched you talk a number of times on Catholic channels (I'm a traditional Catholic convert from Protestantism). I just gotta say Dr. Ortlund, you're incredibly virtuous and I have a lot of admiration for you. You're the best Protestantism has to offer. We disagree in much, but man I hope to have a cup of coffee with you one day in Heaven.
I would completely agree. I am not familiar with your work at Truth Unites, but you seem very charitable and virtuous. I just wish my Protestant friends and family shared these traits, as I announced my conversion almost one year ago and have been met with nothing but hate and accusations. I pray for my brother Cameron as he is going to face an uphill battle and a ton of criticism. Protestantism has become the de facto Christian religion in the Western world and Catholics converts are treated very poorly in my opinion. If I were to come out as Gay (I most certainly am NOT!), that would be easier than converting to Catholic.
@@udmgraduate - I'm glad to hear that and hope I can someday reconcile with my parents over my conversion. My advice to all Christians is to be charitable and listen when someone wants to convert to either side. Throwing out centuries-old myths and spouting cherry-picked Bible verses doesn't help anyone. Take the time to just listen to why they feel the need to convert. Peace be with you all!
Don't know as you have fallen for deception. Perhaps if you can disregard "Catholic" doctrine and find true salvation on your own. You apparently didn't before when you were exposed to the Truth.
As a Christian who is a member of The Catholic Church, I am often challenged (and frustrated) by your arguments. However your tremendous charity and goodwill give me an enormous amount of respect for you and your ministry. Thanks for all you do it is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for the kind words, and glad to be in touch. Truly sorry for when I contribute to the frustration through my own imperfections. Let's keep talking.
@@thomasc9036 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. -Matthew 5:17 Paul replied, “Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: ‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.’” -Acts 23:5 Personally I don't view scripture as being in tension with authority and I don't feel as confident in my abilities to discern legitimate authority from corrupt authority as exceptionally as Christ.
As a Catholic i thank you so much for your astute and sincere critique. You gave man a lot to think about. While I do not plan on becoming a Protestant I am filled with so much gratitude and respect for people like you. It gives me hope that we can share our beliefs and have discourse while encouraging and praying for one another without the ugly and nasty discord that sometimes follows.
but nothing in there thats true.....no many historians believe the people in the OT were real people and the NT there is no independent evidence its fact
Gavin, I’m a Lutheran pastor a few states away from you. Brother, you are such a gift to the church. Your rigor, your charity, your tone of voice. Everyone who listens is benefiting. God bless you, brother.
@@silveriorebelo2920 what would say is a good model of disagreeing with Catholics and Catholicism in a loving way? Or, what do you define as bigotry and how can it be avoided? Thanks
Dr. Ortlund, I'm Catholic and I love your channel! You have such a charitable approach to debate, which I very much appreciate. I believe the sad truth is very few Christians, regardless of tradition, actually know and understand why they believe what they believe. So sad. The body of Christ can do better. May God bless you and Cameron abundantly. Thank you for your work.
Thank you Gavin! I'm a Pastor in the Philippines, educated in the states but been struggling with the arguments of Scott Hahn, Cameron from Capturing Christianity and many other Protestants converting. Been on the rocky boat lately as I have been spiritually monotonous and when I visited a Catholic Church one time, with it's architecture and maybe of the new ideas plaguing me, I felt like I was more closer to God and can sense that more intimate spiritual connection while inside that church. Your response has been a great help to me, as I don't really find in depth sources defending our position. Keep up the good work, we need more people like you. God bless you brother!
You are really the final boss of online protestantism. I don't wanna like a Baptist but you really help me to stand on the Protestant ground. Thank you sir. Your voice is necessary.
@@TruthUnites You being a Calvinist should not be in the least shocked or surprised or even comment on Cameron converting to Catholicism since your Calvinistic deity God predestined Cameron to become Catholic in the first place , so why are you commenting on it and not simply telling you're flock of 16th century johnny come lately theological cult members this is what God has predestined
@Catholic Apologetics Dear friend in Christ, I pray the Lord’s blessings upon you and your family. If you will permit me to say in love a strong word to you: it dishonors the very photo of our Lord in your profile for you to speak so uncharitably to a brother in Christ like you did in this comment to Gavin.
You speak with both such grace and clarity. It resonates with me when you said to take your time to study Protestantism. I first became Christian when I was 13 but was always drawn to the Roman church. In good conscience I didn’t convert but went ahead and got baptized in a baptist church, joined the Assemblies of God in university, the Methodists upon graduation and now am Anglican (and I’m 45 now!) I’m still not done studying the Catholic church but in doing so, it has influenced my journey in Protestantism. Your channel is so helpful to help frame so many of these discussions and makes me realize I have so much more to study and learn. I’m grateful for all that you do here - thank you.
@@Defender_of_FaithWhy are there gay catholic priests? Differences in beliefs in not uniquely protestant,and sinful and bad leaders is not uniquely protestant. I believe it was Jesus that said "take the beam out of your own eye before taking the beam out of your brothers eye".
Another good insightful video. You are quickly becoming one of my favorite Protestant UA-camrs (I myself am Protestant). Your emphasis on enriching modern evangelicalism with theology, church history, and theological retrieval are incredibly beneficial. Furthermore, your humility and overall attitude is very refreshing. Keep up the great work!
I'm a Catholic who follows you, and while I'm happy Cameron became Catholic (as I am Catholic and believe it's true), I get deeply frustrated by many (but not all) Catholics' inability to contend with Protestantism outside of caricatures. Many think rebuttals like "33k denominations" and "where in the Bible is only the Bible" are sound and are generally unwilling to make distinctions between, say, scholastic orthodox Lutheranism vs post-Second Great Awakening evangelicalism, all grouping it into the "protestant" bucket. Catholics will be better Catholics and better Christians if they actually focused on understanding classical Protestantism, as our Protestant and evangelical friends have much to teach us. And again, I say this as a convicted Catholic.
I am a former Catholic, and the main difference is that Catholics never have assurance of salvation. They affirm we are saved by grace, but grace in the Catholic church is the help God gives you to perform meritorious works.
Do you know who else didnt have assurance of salvation? The millions of evangelicals in the world today that once said they were saved and believed it when they said it. Hmmmmm!
I agree 👍 I'm a Catholic convert myself. We need people like Gavin to keep us checked against our presuppositions and reasons for trusting in the truths of the Church.
I recommend you guys look into the debates he’s had and rebuttals to his claims before you give him too much credit. He likes to assert that he’s well read but when you look into the evidence he misses the mark on so many issues only giving parts of the CC doctrines
@@charliego7375 Comparatively, though, you have to admit that Gavin gets it much better than the vast majority of other Protestants. I finished his video last night, and I only have a few concerns regarding Gavin's rebuttals. Primarily when it comes to the "need" for the Protestant Reformation in light of medieval scandals.
I have to say Dr Ortlund you have become my favorite Protestant apologist and one of my favorite apologists period. I’m Catholic but I love your heart man!
Truly excellent thanks Gavin: historically informed, theologically astute, pastorally warm and gracious in tone. May this presentation be a blessing to viewers of whichever perspective.
I’m Catholic and I love the way you are directing the conversation here past the old tired arguments and into the minutia of what are the actual concerns that Protestants “should” have with Catholicism.
I agree, this gentleman and Mike Winger are probably the only protestant even worth listening to in this topic. And I do sincerely appreciate that. Because usually is almost comedic. But.... still a long way to go and a few blind spots to deal with....
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”- St. Cyprian of Carthage (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
The actual concerns Protestants *should* have with RC is wherever it strays from the Word of God, particularly in its anathema of the true saving Gospel. But maybe concern with God's Word and the Gospel is "old and tired".
I just continue to be so thankful for your voice in this sphere, Gavin. You could almost call Protestants contemplating Catholicism an Unreached Believer Group (playing on the idea of unreached people groups) and you’re one of the few ministers doing so much to engage them so well.
I think this is the FIRST intentionally charitable and thoughtful protestant interaction with Cameron's conversion that I have seen on all of UA-cam thus far. Thank you Gavin Ortlund for your careful interactions. It is indeed very helpful for BOTH sides of the argument to hear your thoughts on the subject. God bless.
I really appreciated point number one. I've often thought of it as pitting your local pastor against Thomas Aquinas - it's just not a fair fight. Further on that point, I've often thought, "if it wasn't for taking a class on Calvin with an incredible Anglican professor, I probably would've become Catholic very quickly." I don't even claim the title Calvinist, but in studying the best of the Reformation, I was able to get a much different picture of the Reformation.
I grew up protestant, and my dad has been a pastor most of my life. I recently was married to a protestant, who now has decided to become Catholic. It’s been such a struggle and definitely has tested my trust and faith in God. It’s very confusing and I’m just praying and trusting that the Lord will guide him. I am so glad I found your channel. It’s been extremely encouraging. Thank you so much!
My husband is protestant and I was a Catholic, just pray that ur husband truly seek the Lord. He may have a perspective and share with others in the Catholic church. There are saved Catholics in the RCC, they're just better Christians than Catholics and really don't believe all the doctrines of the church.
Classic prodastantism really comes down to martin Luther and his axe to grind with the red Catholic hierarchy of his day. Luther was a Catholic priest. Very devoted to the faith. The church was in the time of corruption internally in lots of political wrangling . So they were involved in personal infighting . Luther was a man with personal issues. He had a great sense of self loathing. It manifested itself in his inability to accept God's mercy and live his life as best he could. He got to the point by where he decided that because he was never going to be good enough . The only avenue was to just have faith. Because in his mind his acts his work. His holyness was never going to be good enough. That's were this is idea of faith alone comes from. It's really kind of pride to think that way. And with the church being corrupt selling indulgences and misrepresenting what that aspect of the faith was there for. He got hopeless and just bailed out of the church. He never wanted to leave the church. But a series of events took place. And then we got the split of from that came the church of England because Henry 8 the wanted out of his union. If Luther can do it so can I. And then we got Calvin's methodists Baptists are a product of this but morphed into an American church. And so it goes. So classic prodastantism is really based after misinterpreted faith one man's pain and a progression of practices that have gotten away from the true mission of the church. That being the salvation of our souls. The way Jesus helped this prossess was giving us tolls and his graces to keep us strong day to day. Things like holy Communion Confession Marriage Last rites Baptism Holy orders And one more I can t remember These were tools that the prodastants church disregarded because they were administered by the Catholic Church. But these things are the very things that we need for holyness day to day. . To be born again and your all good and going to heaven because Jesus Christ is your savior is an oversimplification sold to us over the years . Why because someone somewhere decided this stuff was that old Catholic guilt stuff we don t need. It wasn't t guilt . It was protection . So in my opinion the prodastant reformation has done more harm because it disregarded the really special things Jesus put before us to help us gain salvation. And now it's mainstay thinking. One has to go back to the beginning and really get serious about the faith. When you do this. You'll become Catholic again because you will have all the facts.
Man, Dr. Ortlund, you are a pastor's pastor. Hearing your approach to difficult conversations is a balm to my soul. Thank you for your faithfulness in ministry. I know you were planning to be away from UA-cam during this time. I hope you have a restful Thanksgiving with your family.
This blessed me much. As someone who grew up as an active Protestant who loves the Lord I have been dealing with a lot of confusion as of late in regards to Catholicism and Protestantism and feeling enticed by certain things I see firsthand in the Catholic Church yet deeply disturbed by others. Thank you for being a much needed answer to prayer. May the Lord bless you and the work you do for Him and His people.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV
Man how I wish I could have a conversation with you. I'm a Religion teacher in a catholic school, and I really appreciate when there is respectful dialogue on these sort of things. Even as a Catholic I don't agree with many views held by Cameron as for why he converted to catholicism in the sense that he might prove those specific reasons wrong and fall into a deep spiritual struggle. Also I thank you so much for being so respectful and for sharing these views which I try to consider as best as I can since I also have non-catholic students and my best friend is protestant as well. God bless you🙏 Even though I don't agree with everything you say I thank you for articulating your thoughts and giving me a true deep insight into protestant thinking
Its true Cameron seemed very logical in his process...I converted as well and will admit it was a logical process but, and hopefully Cameron got to this point, you have to let logic go and let the Holy Spirit led you to take that final leap of faith and not rely on your reason and intellect alone....good point
This was very thought provoking. I feel convicted by your appeal to deeper reading, when it is all too tempting to watch videos (however excellent) and call it good. With prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit, I have faith we will be led in the right way.
I think deep down Cameron had always wanted to convert to Catholicism, whether he was aware of it or not. He often spoke of approaching the issue objectively, but he also expressed how he had always been drawn and attracted to the external beauty of Catholicism. Unfortunately, this leads me to think that he wasn’t quite as objective in his assessment as he had hoped or claimed to be. Listen, Catholic cathedrals are absolutely beautiful and stunning, but so are Buddhist temples. If your starting point in evaluating truth is based on aesthetics, that’s a very dangerous position to navigate from.
@@apracity7672 because I don’t base my belief on subjective qualities like aesthetics. I have no problem attending a church service in a basement if the message being preached is truth. Beauty not grounded in truth is at best, meaningless, or at worst, deceptive.
@@joelblack2591 Do you subjectively prefer Protestantism and for that reason, deep down, is why you reject Catholicism? Emotion based decisions, rather than an objective analysis of the data? If I'm wrong, you should be able to clearly explain why Catholicism is wrong and why Protestantism is objectively true.
@@apracity7672 Do I subjectively prefer Protestantism? I mean, I prefer any church that teaches biblical truth. But Not all churches perceived to be part of “Protestantism” are biblical. For example, I would not attend any church that teaches prosperity gospel or “name it and claim it” doctrine. If Catholicism abandoned its unbiblical or questionable teachings/doctrine, then I’d be fine being part of the Catholic Church.
HI Gavin, Catholics don't confess to men AND to God. We only confess sins to God. In the sacrament of confession, we confess our sins to God through a man. Jesus works through the priest. When I go to the priest I know that I am speaking to God through the priest and when the priest says "By the ministry of the church, I absolve you of your sins...." I know it is Jesus speaking to me through the church. When I hear those words spoken by the priest - there is nothing better - so beautiful and so freeing. I love Confession. Confession is healing because Jesus is there and His grace is present through the priest! When protestants confess to each other, I would imagine it is totally different - your friend/pastor could never say the words "I absolve you of your sins"....or, would they? You are right, there were problems in the church during the reformation. But Luther wasn't the only reformer - there were good Catholics calling for reform during the time of Luther- But, unlike Luther they did not break away from the church. The Augustine Institute has a series called "True Reformers" which shows how others, during the time of Luther, were able to reform without causing division. Also, Dr Tim Gray has some videos about Martin Luther where he mentions that the reformation was beginning long before Luther and there were many great saints during the reformation who helped reform the church - such as Saints Ignatius of Loyola, Thomas More, Francis de Sales, Philip Neri, Charles Borromeo, and Teresa of Avila. The fact that the church needed reforming isn't a case against Catholicism. I think it is more important to understand HOW someone seeks to reform. If your version of reform involves disobedience and division - that is not true reform - at least not in my opinion. True reform is a call to deeper prayer - to a more sincere and profound relationship with Christ.
@@elvisisacs3955 I think Gavin was trying to say that Protestants also have a form of confession (where a person confesses sins to a man, not just to God privately). He gave examples of protestants who form "accountability" type groups - the members confess their sins to each other and hold each other accountable. But, I don't think the two are comparable. The Protestant version of "confession" is completely different - the pastor/friend would never say "by the ministry of the church, I absolve you of your sins..." Although, I would agree that an accountability group could be a nice and beautiful thing - it's not really comparable to sacramental confession. Gavin is concerned that Catholics do not have assurance of salvation and he is concerned that we are "required" to go to confession if we have committed a mortal sin. Also, he thinks we Catholics experience stress wondering if we are in a state of Grace or not. We may not be certain about our state of Grace - but, we can be absolutely assured that God's love for us endures and is eternal - He will never stop loving us regardless of our sins. AND we have absolute assurance that if we turn to Him with a contrite heart, he will forgive us. We have assurance that if we do commit a mortal sin, we can ask for forgiveness (through the sacrament of confession) and we WILL be forgiven - and Grace will be given! Sacraments are assured channels of Grace. Isn't that comforting? Is that not enough? O, the great gifts of assurance God has given through the church!
@@AJ_Jingco You mean someone worshipping a false god is PURE in Heart. Would you extend your charity to idol worshippers who you deem PURE in Heart, too?
@@AJ_Jingco so then they will see Jesus, and become a Christian.. is that what you mean? Because Jesus said no one could come to His Father except through Jesus himself.
Best Protestant response to Cameron's conversion that I've come across. No underhanded gibes or straw-manning of either side, but solid theological arguments and charitable seeking of the Truth. If I weren't already tied down by my philosophy readings and a deep dive into Catholicism (so as not to strawman my own faith), I'd definitely take a look at those book recommendations--maybe a side project after I've learned the Catholic faith better!
I've been looking forward to this video ever since I saw his announcement. Love your work Dr. Ortlund. You're doing great things for us who aren't scholars on church history! I'm working on it, but there's so much material to get into
Mine wouldn’t have been terribly helpful. I watched Cameron for a couple of years. This was not at all surprising, but he had no foundation in real, Biblical theology. You have my sympathy.
@@KristiLEvans1 What a load of hogwash. How do you know what level of knowledge he had regarding theology. The fact of the matter is that you don't. You merely think he did and voice that as being the primary reason that he converted. In your mind, if everyone knew their Biblical theology, then they wouldn't become Catholic. Well I hate to break it to you, but many Catholics know their Bible and still disagree with you.
@@gch8810 what’s “hogwash”, specifically? Do you believe that the entire rest of the world can’t see that your magisterium is doing handstands, as regards theology?
I was blessed when I converted to Catholicism in that I didn’t lose any friends of family. Everyone was great. But you’re right, that’s not everyone’s case. You’re right, people’s decisions either way should be respected. Can’t imagine doing it in the public eye. Praying for Cameron and his family and ministry. Glad to welcome him home and excited to see what happens in the future for him!
I always see you commenting on every single protestant video saying "Baptist to catholic because of the Eucharist" As an ex-catholic myself Many protestants celebrate Eucharist And You may be aware about the scams happening in Catholic churches in the name of Eucharist!!!
@@theknight8524 then youre ex catholic right? You didn't know that this i already in scriptures and Apostle are doing it The Eaucharist practice because Jesus said in the Last Supper do in memory of me What apostles and Early Christians do? Well read this 1cor 10:16-17 Read that verse if its a scam even Jesus are telling his apostle to remember with him do this Eucharist in memory of him Read 16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? 17 For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.
@@brittoncain5090 i was an eastern Catholic but i will link to a video if you want👇 ua-cam.com/video/FiieOiq-NvU/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/PDTvzhWl9-s/v-deo.html Eucharist scams in eastern countries is quite often and my main point was protestants celebrate Eucharist.
I think (I know nobody really cares what I think) Cameron will regret leaving Protestantism for Catholicism. Protestants don’t hate Catholics(or at least they shouldn’t). But there is a reason why there needed to be Reform.
Left protestantism after 40+ years (served as elder and deacon) and became Catholic 5 years ago. At one point you just have to follow what you believe as truth. Lost friends, but I do not regret it one second. But I have great respects for my protestant brothers as many of them put me to shame by their great love of Christ and the Bible.
Yup… and I’m an agnostic now, I suppose for the same reason 😅 Seek the truth! Question yourself. So yeah I totally agree that valuing intellectual honesty is great
@@azophi Agreed! You should always be questioning yourself and searching for new facts. For me the case for Christ was just too strong to even consider Agnosticism. But we can only base yourself on what we know and learn. When you stop learning, then you slowly wither away ...
@@stephanelarochelle2484 fair enough. I’ll keep reaching out towards the truth! I still go to church haha I just don’t partake in the sacraments. (Well a Protestant church)
Very sad ....how could you believe in Marian Doctrines??? No fondation at all in scripture .....how could you kneel before a statue .....?? Adore communion bread .....?? Do this IN REMEMBRANCE of me ....and how could you believe in pergatory??? Not in scripture ...no church fathers beleives RC teaching of pergatory today.......I WAS BORN ROMAN CATHOLIC....WAS ALL MY LIFE ....NEVER KNEW THE BIBLE ...NEVER KNEW JESUS PERSONNALLY ....i see multitudes in my RC Land not knowing God ....my grandmother going up 25 stairs on knees to statue of Ste Anne .....lighting candles ....RCC is abusive wrong ....priests controlled my country for générations ...i see freedom of protestant Lands and slavery of RC Lands....STUDY ....TRAVEL ...LEARN ...
What an amazing response, thanks Gavin for all the work you do. I felt exactly the same watching Cameron’s explanation of his conversion. For example, at one point he mentioned how, as a photographer, he felt deeply attracted by Catholic churches, whereas Protestant churches are just “ugly”. I was shocked! Has he ever heard of St Paul’s Cathedral in London? How is he not aware of the thousands of beautiful Protestant churches in America, the UK, Germany, the Netherlands, and many other historically Protestant Countries? Unfortunately, for a lot people, their only exposure to Protestantism comes down to modern, highly emotional, Charismatic-like churches.
I definitely agree with reading widely. I've spent 11 years voraciously reading all kinds of things from both sides, the patristics, theologians, historians, scholars, apologists, councils, the CCC, Newman, Augustine, Aquinas, Reformation history, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the synod of Dort, Wesley, etc. I even took a church history class under Dr. Mayhew. After all the research and study I am even more deeply convinced of Protestantism. My Catholic friends would tell me if I just read the Fathers I would convert, or if I just read this or do this or that I would convert (much of the advice or reading recommendations I had already studied in detail on my own anyways) but after each challenge I would always come out more strongly convinced and reaffirmed that I am in the correct belief as a Protestant Christian.
@@daniels3537 I've never considered it a strong argument for Catholicism actually, if you look at the chaos and divisions in the current "Francis pontificate " it's really bad and it's like calling the kettle black. Atleast almost all of the denominational stuff from Protestantism is on secondary theological issues that Christians have liberty to agree to disagree on.
@@daniels3537 also it has seemed to me that many Catholic apologists make a huge jump from Unity to truth...even if they were unified (which they are not) it doesn't follow that unity necessarily equates to truth. Of course I'm not making a one to one comparison but it will serve well enough for the point. The nazis were unified under hitler that jews were an inferior race (it doesn't follow that therefore it is true).
@@daniels3537 also I take John 17 to ultimately be more of a statement of fact in the unity of the ultimate union of all the born again believers worldwide (the invisible church) rather than necessarily unity meaning absolute agreement of every jot and title of theological nuances.
Sorry…just getting back to this. Regarding your first comment, you didn’t address my question. I asked if you are comfortable with the current state of disunity within Christendom. I think too many Christians take it as status quo, despite Jesus’s fervent prayer in John 17. In you gut, do the divisions that currently exist *not something that fall within the scope of Jesus’s prayer?
Dr. Ortlund makes a bold claim at 8:30 that confession to a priest is categorically essential for the forgiveness of mortal sins in Catholic theology. But he has neglected to mention the possibility of contrition outside of confession. Attrition is the state in which the Church teaches the absolute necessity of confession. But not so with contrition. This is what allows Catholics to believe that non-Catholic Christians can still be saved.
@@elvisisacs3955 I don't think his claim stands since it is actually false. He clearly said that after mortal sin one is damned without the sacrament of confession according to Catholic teaching. He is trying to exaggerate the ills of catholicism.
@YAJUN YUAN I'm not making the claim as a matter of fact myself since I am not Catholic, but I do believe this is a distinction that Catholic teaching makes. It allows for the forgiveness of unconfessed (sacramentally) mortal sins if one has perfect contrition.
Gavin, I greatly respect you and the ways in which you went about this video. I am a Protestant currently seeking to become Catholic, and I just wanted to share what I took issue with most in your video. When you discussed mortal sin, you almost made it seem like Protestants don't want their congregants to know how serious certain sin is - you mentioned contraception, for example, and implied it is a bit ridiculous to tell people that its use severely separates them from God. However, I'm deeply thankful that Catholics do share the severity of these sin issues. If I'm in sin, if I'm separated from God, if I'm mistakenly believing something I'm doing is okay when it's not, I want to know about it. I want to know that things like contraception do grieve God, and that they do harm me. Since adopting NFP my marriage has been completely transformed, and I am so deeply thankful to the Catholic Church for not being afraid to talk about these issues and to tell people just how serious they are. Paradoxically, I haven't experienced that as burdensome - rather, it's set me free to live the life He calls me to in greater clarity and truth. Thank you for your perspective, always!
Gavin, I love what you are doing here. You model the kind of thoughtful and reflective faith that is so desperately needed in the Evangelical Church today. I recently started my own channel to serve a similar purpose. Keep it up brother.
I can't tell you just how thankful I am for your ministry and channel. Please be encouraged. God is speaking through you to bring wisdom, unity, peace and closeness with Christ. Thanks
@8:38 - It isn't quite the case that dying without going to Confession means you go to Hell. The Catechism (section 1452) states that sincere repentance based on the love of God, with the intention to go to Confession, will remit mortal sins in such an instance of sudden death. @10:07 - OK, what I was wondering here is: Does the "classical" Protestant tradition recognize that there is such a thing as a mortal sin? (That is, a sin which - if committed with sufficient knowledge and volition, scuttles communion with God) If there is such a concept within classical Protestantism.... then it isn't essentially different than Catholicism on the matter. It seems all we're doing is haggling over what counts as one and what you have to do if you commit one. To say are Catholics in a state of anxiety... well, seems presumptive. Does Matt Fradd seem anxious? Plus, the fact that a certain ideology leads to reduced anxiety does not mean it is more true. Universalism and antinomianism would probably produce the least possible anxiety for Christians, but that doesn't mean universalism and antinomianism are true. We cannot say, "This causes anxiety therefor it is false." I think we should base our beliefs on the best evidences for and against them, not upon the feelings they supposedly cause. It might be that Christians CAN lose their salvation and ARE supposed to work out their salvation in fear and trembling, and to live in reverent fear. That's where the discussion needs to be. (I'd also note that this isn't so much about the proper interpretation of James 5, but of John 20.) @14:00 - This goes to a critique which I know I've mentioned to you a few times: When discussing the freedom which a Protestant has to look at the tradition and determine what aligns with Scripture and the form of Christianity - you praise the lack of overarching authority in Protestantism. But when a Catholic points to this exact same thing to propose that Protestantism also suffers from the downsides of individualism, you say there's plenty of authority within Protestantism. It seems one has to choose a lane in drive in it. To think that Protestantism has all the boons of private discernment with NONE of the associated downsides seems unrealistic. They enjoy both the upsides and downsides of it. Just as Catholics enjoy the upsides and downsides of not having it. @22:30 - The argument that Protestantism was necessary because Catholics persecuted non-Catholics would hold more force if Protestants didn't turn around and persecute Catholics. But they did. My people suffered greatly under the holy heels of their enlightened betters. Otherwise stated: If the sordid history of Catholic persecuting Protestants means Catholicism should not be joined today.... what does the sordid history of Protestants persecuting Catholics mean? Is it somehow different when they did it? Or did they not do it, and Nicholas Pieck died of natural causes? @45:58 - If we're talking about difficulties in getting along and reaching communion, it seems we are talking about on-the-ground realities. It is true that the original magisterial Protestants recognized that Catholics had valid baptisms and were Christians. However, the on-the-ground reality is that many, many Protestants don't recognize Catholics as validly Christians - having been taught by their pastors that they are not. This is an obstacle too, right?
Just had time to get back to this. Thanks for your always thoughtful comments. A few replies. 1. I understand there are exceptions to mortal sin requiring confession; that is not at odds with what I said. I am simply repeating the language of magisterial teaching, and the exceptions do not detract from my point, so far as I can see. 2. "Does Matt Fradd seem anxious?" Of courage not ALL Catholics are in observable anxiety ALL the time. The concern is with the relative ease with which one can pass from a state of grace, and that this is where the discussion should focus between Catholic and Protestant, not whether we confess sin to human beings or God alone. 3. I am not sure that I "praise the lack of overarching authority in Protestantism" -- not sure what you are referencing. But the general point would be that Protestants have freedom on peripheral matters, but that does not mean there is NO authority in Protestant churches. The idea that "you can believe whatever you want" is not true of Protestantism. Yet it is true we do not yoke the conscience to late accretions like the bodily assumption of Mary. There is no inconsistency here. Freedom on some things is not freedom on everything. 4. Protestant persecution of Catholics is not comparable. I have explained this in my video on the Hussites. Its like comparing Texas to Rhode island. Catholic persecution was also approved by the highest authorities and rooted in Catholic theology. There is no piece of Protestant theology like Unam Sanctam, which claimed the pope has power over the temporal sword, or Ad extirpanda, which legitimized torture. I am not simply criticizing Catholic sins when I talk about persecution, I am criticizing Catholic theology. 5. Not sure why you reference the "on the ground reality" that many Protestants don't think Catholics are Christians. Many others do, and we are not bound by on the ground dynamics, but official theology. The official Protestant view is that the Church of Rome is a church, albeit one beset with errors; you do not say the same of us.
@@TruthUnites : I would write lengthy response, elaborating on certain points. But I keep reading and re-reading the statement, mouth agape, that violence against Catholics is not comparable to violence against Protestants. Not comparable. What can I even say?
@@actsapologist1991 its not comparable. For starters, as I said, it was justified by Catholic theology, which claimed power over the temporal sword, and allowed for torture to extract confessions. I mentioned two specific papal bulls in my last comment. Protestant theology does not have such claims. Then, there is the scale of it. Add up all the inquisitions and crusades against heretical groups, its way bigger than Protestant persecution of Catholics. It's not even close. Historians generally consider the Catholic crusade against the Cathars an example of religious genocide. It is so offensive when Catholics downplay these atrocities.
Excellent video! Thank you so much, Gavin! Re: recognizing Catholics as brothers: my husband grew up nominal Catholic in Brazil, a predominantly Catholic nation, and then actually decided to follow Christ in a Protestant church. It actually took me (raised in a Protestant home) to convince him that there are true believers among both Catholics and Protestants (I pointed to one of his favorite singers, Matt Maher, as an example). Sadly, It was something he didn’t think he saw in his life among Catholicism. It’s all-too-easy to write off people as “the other side,” especially when we see people “convert,” though we gather around the same Savior. I love your diplomacy, charity, and honesty. Thank you so much for your work!
It's frustrating in part because I don't think Cameron has thought through the full implications of consenting to the magisterium. You have to consent, for example, to the execution of Jan Hus and concede that forgiveness of sins was given for participating in the crusade against the Hussites. And that's just one example.
@@duckymomo7935 We should not insult or speak without tact. We need to realize the danger of this branch of Christianity called mere Christianity. It's dangerous and many of our church members are in it, whether they know it or not.
@@australopithecusafarensis8927 Nope. God's command to kill the Canaanites was directed towards gross evil like child sacrifice, bestiality, murder, etc. The conquest of the Hussites was a conquest of fellow Christians who preached that the church didn't have a right to use the sword against other Christians.
No where in the catechism does it say that the Church is sinless? That is a bizarre concept. Many atrocities have been committed by and in the name of all the world religions., and continue to this day.
Really appreciated your thoughts on Bayesian analysis. I have always struggled to understand why Cameron considers this to be a sound way of coming to theological conclusions.
@Deborah Faith Thompson they’re not probabilities as such. It’s just an analytic way of attaching probabilistic values based on his own subjective perception of the rhetoric of the given arguments. He’s basically assigning numeric values to how compelling he thinks certain arguments are to remove potential bias as a factor.
As someone who leans Catholic, I agree. Every time he starts going off about his Bayesian analysis, I can’t help but think that he’s thinking too much like an atheist lol
Dr.Gavin , your videos are truly a blessing and very informative . as someone who comes from a pentecostal background who are basically extremely bad at history and good at seeing the smaller picture and accusing the other side , you help me open my mind to great extend without having hatred to our friends in rome . I really love your videos , I usually suggest your videos since they are less bashing and more of open criticism with love and putting stone in the opponents shoe . i look forward to hear and learn more from you God bless your ministry as well as your Fam . Love from India ❤
Great reflection/feedback as always. Given all the people Cameron has interviewed, his comments displayed a surprising degree of ignorance regarding the faith he claimed to profess. The OT comment specifically made me wonder what kind of churches he has attended.
I appreciate your videos, Gavin. I started looking into Catholicism, but the more I dug into it, the more I saw half-truths and bizarre wordplay as the primary defense of Roman Catholic teachings and apologetics. Most of the issues I took with the Catholic church before I really dug into it were descendant dogmas from the papacy. I always wondered why they seemed so clearly in error, but didn't know enough about Catholic theology to realize that most of these errors arise directly from the purported infallibility of popes. When you pull the thread, the papacy itself crumbles into obvious error, which necessitates a much deeper look at the allegedly infallible dogmas espoused by the office over time. There are certainly some aspects of Catholic thought that have pushed my thinking closer to that of the RC church, but the papacy itself is just so theologically and historically frail.
Thanks for the video Gavin. I am curious, at 30:23 you say it's "not responsible" to enter or leave Protestantism without reading the best voices on both sides. And I do agree viewing both sides is important, but I also think a person's conversion can be justified even if they don't do that. For example, do you feel the same about someone becoming Christian? Would it be "irresponsible" to become Christian if you never read the best defenders of atheism and/or critics of Christianity? Or could the Holy Spirit simply convict them enough to justify conversion without doing that (which could apply to Protestantism or Catholicism, I suppose). Anyways, curious on your thoughts and looking forward to our debate in March!
I guess a preliminary though would be that Cameron seemed to highlight how much he is following the evidence and put quite some emphasis on it. So it is reasonable to expect that given that, you would avail yourself of the best of Protestantism, which from some of the clips Gavin played, it seems like he did not. I probably would not expect someone who got convicted by the HS in a context very different to apologetical arguments and such to have read the best of either side and so i wouldn’t say in that case that, they were being irresponsible for becoming Christian. Just my unprocessed thoughts
Hey Trent, good to hear from you. I certainly agree the Holy Spirit can bring about conversion swiftly, with relatively little intellectual processing. The focus of this video is an intellectual conversion where someone is watching UA-cam videos or listening to podcasts over a period of time, but not necessarily reading books or engaging the best representatives of each side. Yes, I'd certainly say the same for that kind of conversion with regard to Christianity. In fact, I think I gave the example of someone leaving Christianity without reading Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig, etc. I think that is not responsible simply because we should consider each view at its best when we are making such a decision. I'd add that if someone is publicly representing a particular position, it is especially important to engage its most accurate/capable proponents, at least some of them. So it seems to me, let me know if you think that is off base. Perhaps we are envisioning different scenarios, and thus not necessarily disagreeing.
@@TruthUnites We probably don't disagree that much and I didn't get a chance to watch your whole video. I'm not sure where to draw the line on how much a person needs to read to have an intellectually responsible conversion. You could spend your whole life reading works defending Protestantism, Catholicism, atheism, etc. My biggest concern would be that it seems like there should be symmetry between the amount of research we expect someone to do before they leave our faith vs. the amount we expect before they convert to our faith (otherwise we seem opportunistic). Something I'll have to think about more and perhaps you could address it in future content.
@@TheCounselofTrent yes, I agree I do not know where the exact cut-off point is, either. Only God knows a person's heart, and where they are coming from. You raise a fair point that our standards should go both ways for such conversions. Yes, I am sure we will have a chance to talk more, Lord willing.
@@TruthUnites If someone is converting to my perspective, they are permitted to read half the number of books regularly required. If it is an opposing perspective, double the usual requirement.🙂
I appreciate this video. I think it helps a lot of us out here who are processing Cameron's announcement. It also shed's light on the subject that otherwise wouldn't have had an opportunity to shine.
Looking back at Cameron's journey towards this decision, I have a feeling he leaned towards the group he felt more loved by. As a protestant this saddens me terribly.
Hey Gavin, Catholic here, always love your thoughtful and charitable videos. I have a problem I'd like to take up with you though, in this video you rebuke caricaturing protestant views by always taking the low-church, evangelical extreme. My issue is, you give a Methodist answer to the question of confession. You give an Anglican answer to the question of authority and reverence. Yet you are neither a Methodist nor an Anglican. A Presbyterian or reformed protestant would have serious problems with both points of view. You are a Baptist, I don't know how you handle doctrinal things in your church, but I know plenty of Baptists who will disagree with some of your views tooth and nail. Why would you argue for "Protestantism" as a whole when it is not a universally nor internally consistent framework, but an umbrella term for a huge diverse variety of differing and rival frameworks united in only one thing: having split from the Catholic Church or from each other. Cameron did not convert from "Protestantism to Catholicism", he converted from Non-denominational Pentecostal Evangelism to Catholicism. Why do you, as a Baptist, defend credal position that I would assume you do not hold? Why should any Baptist care more that an evangelical convert to the Catholic Church, than that he convert to the Anglican Church, two Churches that from the Baptist position should in theory be equally anathemized? Edit: wrote the comment before finishing the video and getting your explanation of your view of a branching church. Still, you seem to be applying the word "baggage" to Catholic views even when they agree with classical protestant views you extol. Where is your hesitancy against prayer to the saints when it comes from Anglicans? What about the excesses in persecution of the Hussite movement (defenestration anyone)? It seems you are applying standards to us that you do not acknowledge or apply to your protestant brothers and sisters, which is rather unfair.
Because contrary to popular belief, Reformation Christianity has a ton of overlap between the branches. In fact, many of these historic creed carry massive theological agreement, and are pooled together to create a "catholic Protestantism". On theological fundamentals, Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, and Presbyterian historic creeds share an incredible amount. We have a tradition, with varying spiritualities within those traditions. Yes a presbyterian would have serious issues with both Anglicanism and Methodism, but the reality is we share an insane amount of theology, and can affirm most of what is contained in their creeds. Protestant obstinance, not true theological division, is the source of the animus. Clement of Rome was correct when he argued that the unity of the Church comes from obedience to God ultimately, and thus those divisions arise from not taking seriously the Pauline command "insofar as it depends on you, be at peace with all men."
This is a beautiful video. I went Catholic after, what I thought, was a lot of research. But after seeing some of your arguments on other videos, I've realized I haven't struggled nearly as much as I should have. Thanks for what your doing!
Thank you so much for responding to this Gavin. It's done wonders to calm my worries. I just discovered you the other day when I heard about Cameron's departure so I listened through his conversation with Matt Fradd, and then your video with him about the papacy. Currently just flying through your content because I love your solid logical processing and charitable attitude. Very grateful to have discovered this channel!
@J. Knight There aren't 25'000 protestant groups. There are probably about 10. Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Presbyterianism , Baptist, Methodisms, Pentascostalism being the major ones.
Dr Ortlund, you make the point that the reformation came about because in part there was a withholding of the Eucharist and that was not good , which I concur, why is it today, according to a published evangelical survey, communion on average is once a month or in some churches quarterly? As a Catholic I can go to mass everyday of the year and receive communion. So it appears that the real reformation (maybe counter reformation) and it’s current fruit was in Catholicism where now if I want communion as frequently as daily it is possible yet not so for the vast of Protestantism. If that is A reason or THE reason one may want to convert to Catholicism, based on belief in the real presence or importance of communion, then isn’t the Catholic Church today doing a better job than Protestantism as a whole in getting that sacrament to the believers?
Yes they are and if you research the Church withholding elements, it was because it was causing division. There was a movement pushing that you had to have BOTH for the sacrament ti be valid. That’s never been the case. The Church quashed it thankfully.
The divide is significant. Thank you for being so gracious while not sugar-coating the profound differences between the Roman system and classical Protestantism.
My comment on Gavin’s first appeal. His analogy says that Protestants are not all the same. Then when criticizing the sacrament of confession, he says that Protestants have assured salvation. Not all Protestants believe in assured salvation. The difficult thing about talking about or with Protestants about anything, is you cannot assume you know what they believe because it is different for each individual and church.
I noticed that also. He can use that defence for every teaching since Protestantism is all over the map. They can't agree on a definition of Sola Scriptura. Dr Gavin offers his but other Protestants don't have to accept his definition.
13:30 The difference is, catholic councils and documents hold authoritative weight along with the Holy Scriptures whereas the protestant documents such as the 39 articles are granted authority by those who believe it is in accord with the Scriptures. The Catholic documents are authoritative in there very essence not just granted authority by the individual who sees them as being faithful tradition to the Sacred Scriptures.
Catholics accept a unified teaching from authoritative sources, as long as those sources do not contradict scripture - scripture is still a measuring stick, but questions not answered in scripture can have authoritative answers. (Eg does the bible say this cannot be so) Protestants do not have a unified teaching and require that any authoritative teaching be backed by an interpretation of scripture (eg.where is it in the bible) I don't find the protestant formation any more resilient against error given the acceptance of private judgment (eg schism) within protestants.
My brother, who was not raised in the church at all, is the most Godly man I've ever met. In his relationship with God, in his service to God, in his service to his family and to his community...and he is a Baptist Pastor. I am a cradle Catholic that left. I think God recognises the deeply faithful more than the denominations. My Baptist brother saved me...just by watching him. I'm thinking of rejoining the Catholic faith...But my bro is probably the only truly Godly man I've witnessed
You have truly helped with big questions I have on church history and have been a great example of how to be gracious with our words and seasoned with salt. Praise God for your channel brother! I pray He would continue to bless it in Jesus name amen! ✝️
As a Protestant-due to the claims of the Roman-Catholic Church-I started to study the historical beginnings of the Papacy, Marian Dogmas and Transsubstantiation and every of these three things »were not confessed« and believed before the early 5th and 6th century. Roman Papacy developed out of monarchical episcopate that itself developed in the 2nd and 3rd century and out of monarchical episcopate developed the Roman Papacy after the Roman Emperor Constantin executed the Constantinian Shift, where he ended the public persecution of Christians and also gave judicial authority to the bishop of Rome. (Constantine by the way was Arian, as his close friend Eusebius of Caesarea). Only after that development the rise of Roman-Catholic Dogmas and Papal edicts were released what formerly *only Emperors could do.* Before Constantine the bishops were subject to the Emperor while soon after Constantine gave judicial authority to the Roman Church Emperors were subject to the bishop of Rome. The historical interpretation of Matthew 16:18 confirms the fact that Papacy was never a doctrine of the early ante-nicene Church. The monarchical episcopate goes back to the 2nd century and all quotes-especially those who elevated the local bishops of the churches before Constantine were misinterpreted to be a support of Papacy. Pretty heavy to figure out *apart from the historical study of Church History* but when you do personal research you will see that the Roman-Catholic Church is not historical present before the effects of the Constantinian Shift. That is why Transsubstantiation is not found in the ante-nicene Church and that is why the 4 Marian dogmas were not found in the early church. The only thing the Roman-Catholic can do is to read their dogmas into ambiguous utterances of the ante-nicene fathers. The other thing they do to appear true is to use Apocrypha (Liber Qui Apellatur Transitus Id Est Assumptio Sanctae Mariae) that (!) three popes in a row rejected as fake and condemned. And today, Roman-Catholic says that these apocryphal writings contain truths that must be believed in order to be saved! So that is why I can never become Roman-Catholic. All who convert to Catholicism are not seeing what they are doing and have no knowledge of the testimony of Church history. Sad that we are too lazy today to do personal researches that are not biased. So here is my advice for all those doubters and sceptics who want to convert to Rome: begin with a historical research on Constantine and learn what actually happened in reality. Did you know that Constantine rejected the Council of Nicea in 328 - the very Council Constantine himself convoked in 325?
Gavin, you are definitely my favorite protestant apologist on UA-cam. I appreciate how clear you speak your content and it's done very compassionately. I practice the Catholic faith, and I really look forward and hope to see more collaboration videos!
Gavin, your videos have given me so much clarity. I was very close to converting to Catholicism because there are beautiful and true aspects that I had not experienced in Protestant church experience but on the other hand so many very clearly Roman influences that I could not find reason for anywhere in the Bible. You are one of the first Protestant apologists to explain the history and have such a beautiful balance in your approach that is kind and generous yet rooted in history and theology. Thank you so much for these videos, I will be purchasing your books! God bless :)
As always: your careful and charitable approach is enviable. Your channel would be a blessing to so many people. Should be one of the largest out there with how thoughtful and fair you are.
Wanting to receive the Eucharist really makes you change your life, wrestling with sins in our life is part of the Christian life and I would rather be uncomfortable in truth than ignorant in sin. And the Church truly is there for us to internalize the Gospel! - "so that through them, you may participate in the divine nature" Peter
I think a lot of the frustration on the Protestant side came from the fact that (whether merited or not), Cameron often gave off the impression of not giving Protestantism a fair shake over the years. Placing strawmen of his (Evangelical/Protestant) camp against "steelmen" of the Roman party. That's why so many of us are grateful for the work you do Dr. Ortlund, presenting a more thoughtfully nuanced and historically rich approach to "Protestantism."
@@pigetstuck Yeah, I thought it was particularly interesting how he characterized the difference between Catholic and Protestant approaches to Sacerdotal Confession: Protestant -- "you have to confess directly to God" Catholic -- "you _get_ to confess to a priest if you want to." I find this rich as a Lutheran since our entire Reformation was started over corruptions within the practice of Confession. The way he described the Catholic position is actually the Lutheran approach ("all may, _none must_ .., some should"). The Catholic view is that you *have to* for certain types of Sin, making it a heavy burden rather than Gospel assurance for the participant struggling with guilt.
@@pigetstuck Tbf, that's not a great sedes doctrinae for sacramental confession (to a priest) -- I would say John 20/Matthew 28 are clearer foundations for the exercise of the keys. "Confess your sins to one another" is more _consolation of the brethren_
Brand new subscriber here. Thank you for making this video. I'm a Protestant who finds it more plausible to believe than Catholicism. I haven't ever looked into the historicity of the beginnings of protestantism, so I really appreciate your recommendation to do so. I'm really looking forward to it!
I’m also an ex-Protestant. Now happily Catholic. I’ve heard all the arguments from the various Protestantisms (plural). Can you have a debate with Jimmy Akin from Catholic Answers?
Hey Gavin, Just stumbled upon this! Just subscribed. The number of Protestants who realize there are disputes with Catholicism are few. The number of Protestants who engage in the conversation are fewer, but the number of Protestants who have explored the best arguments of both sides and understand it at your level are rare to find. It can feel lonely being a Protestant that has gone through the ringer of Catholic defenses and made it out alive, so thanks for all you do!
@@Compulsive-Elk7103i know many ex Catholic members who never got the gospel preached to them in a Catholic church and didn't even get saved or acquire salvation until they left. People who grew up in Catholicism and latter left all say the same thing. The Catholic church is deep down is paganism sprinkled with Christianity. Thousands upon thousands of ex Catholics all say the same thing. People are saved inside the Catholic church not because of their dictrine , but in spite of them
The more I read church history the less I am convinced of Catholicism. I am at a stage now where its almost impossible for me to become a Catholic so it's so strange when I see people convert. Maybe I'm just stupid and I'm missing something. The papacy is one of the most unconvincing things I've come across and I couldn't believe it even if I tried. Again, maybe I'm just too stupid to see what the fuss is about.
@@andrewpatton5114 you don't get talk about any kind of papacy prior to 3rd century and the vague references to something like it are talking about it for the sake of utility not for all ages and all times.
@@andrewpatton5114 you don't get many of the Marian dogmas too. You don't get the real presence the further back you go. If you go as far back as the didace you don't get it there for sure but I know catholics hate that argument. If you go as far back as scripture you get zero doctrines about papacy.
Dear Pastor Gavin, I’ve watched several videos from Catholics in the past few months on various topics. There is one thing that I just can’t get by and that is that I find that most Catholics argue for and point to the Catholic Church as their main goal (not saying all, I also believe that there are brothers and sisters in Christ), but the videos are so intellectual, often empty and draining and it often boils down to “we have the better arguments”, everything is about the church fathers, but it is different with you, you point to the person of Jesus Christ, wanting people to put their trust in him and that is very prominent in you. It is your heart that is different. And if that is the fruit of being solid in your Protestant beliefs, what else can one be than Protestant, for the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart. God bless you🙏🏼
I am always stimulated by your charism of teaching in the organic context of truth, love and unity. Thank you for your ongoing contributions to the universal Church. You are a passionate presenter. Thanks Gavin.
I really like your channel. I am trying to do a similar thing with mine, coming from a Protestant perspective but finding and celebrating truth in all Christian traditions.
Such a calm, thoughtful, logical approach to apologetics. No one was condemned to hell or labeled a heretic. We need more of that in the UA-cam space. In the end logic, not animus, rules the day.
Gavin, once again your irenic approach coupled with your unflinching stance is a blessing to the entire Church, (of all stripes). Two brief suggestions. One is what I believe is a very good primer for those who know little about Church History, and that is Gerald Bray’s “The Church”. The other, is not so much a theological work as a sociological one, but one which has very real import in this whole discussion and that is Sociologist, Reginald Bibby’s “Sociology of the Church”. In this book, Bibby accounts for many of the non-theological factors which keep folk in one denomination or another.
The confession of sin point: I’m a youth pastor in a Charismatic Anglican Church, came into the church as evangelical Baptist roots, but reading Church history I was very tempted by Catholicism. And so I started digging deeper into Anglicanism, and many of the things that drawing me to Catholicism is found in Anglicanism and the right view of the history tends to kill the straw men (Henry VIII for instance). We have the sacramental act of Absolution which is up to the congregant as to whether the priest should exercise this. It’s very similar to confession and there is something beautiful about the priestly prayer that is delivered really does feel ‘final’
@@BryceCarmony hey bud thanks for your comment, but no, the Anglican Church was around long before King Henry. In around 1067 we have the king write to the pope to remind him that the king is the head of the Anglican Church rather than the pope. Only 20 odd years after the great schism. the Magna Carta also says the same, both documents pre-date the reformation. There’s some lose evidence (because of archeological findings) that the Christian faith was in England before 70ad, but more solid evidence in the 4th Century. So, yes while the Protestant Anglican movement was triggered partly by Henry, the Church in England, which has always been Called Anglican, has existed for a long, long time :)
Remember all denominations fit what little truth they have from the catholic catholic that’s why the Catholic Church is called coming home and entering the fullness of faith and truth
@@TheNathanMac England had been catholic twice as long as Protestant the foundation of the Protestant faith was built on adultry and thief of Church property
I knew you’d respond, and was hoping you would, but I didn’t expect one so quickly! Looking forward to working through this when things settle down. Love you and appreciate your work, Gavin!
Hi Cameron
Thanks Cam, love you too and look forward to continuing to dialogue. Hope you're settling in from your travels.
@@TruthUnites
8:40 Not true: There is something called "Perfect Contrition" which can be outside of Confession, and it does obtain forgiveness of mortal sins! Also, what is Mortal sin is a bit harder to flesh out then you think, Jimmy Akin has a good article on that. But If you are not sorrowful for your MORTAL sins, how do you even love God?
PS
I Would love to see you have a conversation with Seraphim Hamilton (Kabane), He is one of those Apostolic Christians that truly explains the Gospel perfectly, Justification, the Atonement theory and the rest. As much educated you are, I still think you don't understand fully what Catholics and Orthodox believe in this area.
@@examinetruth5392 yes, I am aware there are exceptions, that is not at odds with what I said. God bless
@@examinetruth5392 I thought you have to do penance before your back in the state of grace
I am protestant and ALWAYS thought the New and Old testaments were tied together! So weird anyone would think any different.
They are tied together, it is because of the way that they are tied together, that we can embrace the authority of the Papacy over the authority of Protestant denominations. If you see how typology works, you can see that the Catholic Church is actually just a continuation of the old davidic kingdom.
I think it's interesting how Ortlund rejects Isaiah 22 and the keys of authority given to him as having any sort of significance when we fast forward to keys being given to Saint Peter. He may not find this a strong typology, but we can't just dismiss it either. It does parallel the New Testament and the authority of the Papacy nicely.
Read the book of Hebrews. There is no more Levitical priesthood, and the Melchizedek priesthood is what Jesus alone holds.
All believers are priests also, by the way, offering up spiritual sacrifices to God through Christ.
(See 1Peter 2:5)
We are not sharing equal authority in this new priesthood.
@@dman7668The papacy isn't biblical so not really
I'm only 2 minutes in and I've watched you talk a number of times on Catholic channels (I'm a traditional Catholic convert from Protestantism). I just gotta say Dr. Ortlund, you're incredibly virtuous and I have a lot of admiration for you. You're the best Protestantism has to offer. We disagree in much, but man I hope to have a cup of coffee with you one day in Heaven.
thank you, and I hope for the same!
I would completely agree. I am not familiar with your work at Truth Unites, but you seem very charitable and virtuous. I just wish my Protestant friends and family shared these traits, as I announced my conversion almost one year ago and have been met with nothing but hate and accusations. I pray for my brother Cameron as he is going to face an uphill battle and a ton of criticism. Protestantism has become the de facto Christian religion in the Western world and Catholics converts are treated very poorly in my opinion. If I were to come out as Gay (I most certainly am NOT!), that would be easier than converting to Catholic.
@@KSTrekker Yeah my Protestant parents disowned me for a short bit. Now we have a much better relationship, but it's been 11 years in the making.
@@udmgraduate - I'm glad to hear that and hope I can someday reconcile with my parents over my conversion. My advice to all Christians is to be charitable and listen when someone wants to convert to either side. Throwing out centuries-old myths and spouting cherry-picked Bible verses doesn't help anyone. Take the time to just listen to why they feel the need to convert. Peace be with you all!
Don't know as you have fallen for deception. Perhaps if you can disregard "Catholic" doctrine and find true salvation on your own. You apparently didn't before when you were exposed to the Truth.
As a Christian who is a member of The Catholic Church, I am often challenged (and frustrated) by your arguments. However your tremendous charity and goodwill give me an enormous amount of respect for you and your ministry. Thanks for all you do it is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for the kind words, and glad to be in touch. Truly sorry for when I contribute to the frustration through my own imperfections. Let's keep talking.
@@TruthUnites I'm only human I can't help but be frustrated by a hard to argue point well made.
@@zakkonieczka6811 I know the feeling! :)
Jesus was not charitable to religious leaders. Are you challenged by the actions of Jesus and his criticisms?
@@thomasc9036 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. -Matthew 5:17
Paul replied, “Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: ‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.’” -Acts 23:5
Personally I don't view scripture as being in tension with authority and I don't feel as confident in my abilities to discern legitimate authority from corrupt authority as exceptionally as Christ.
As a Catholic i thank you so much for your astute and sincere critique. You gave man a lot to think about. While I do not plan on becoming a Protestant I am filled with so much gratitude and respect for people like you. It gives me hope that we can share our beliefs and have discourse while encouraging and praying for one another without the ugly and nasty discord that sometimes follows.
didn't you notice he is a rabbid anti-catholic??
Cameron is a catholic for 1 reason....it will earn more $$$$$$$$$$$$
@@silveriorebelo2920
Thats an ignorant take
@@silveriorebelo2920 Someone is rabid about something aren't they?
I think @silveriorebelo2920 was joking lol
As a Protestant, I have always been taught and believed the OT and NT were connected and important!
but nothing in there thats true.....no many historians believe the people in the OT were real people and the NT there is no independent evidence its fact
Gavin, I’m a Lutheran pastor a few states away from you. Brother, you are such a gift to the church. Your rigor, your charity, your tone of voice. Everyone who listens is benefiting. God bless you, brother.
You should become Catholic Kyle.
Thank you Kyle!
These are all the things I don’t like about Gavin simply because his intentions are not right or not thought through enough
reckless anti-catholic biogotry with a soft voice - yeah, that must be very convincing for a Lutheran - it really seems to show a deep love in Christ
@@silveriorebelo2920 what would say is a good model of disagreeing with Catholics and Catholicism in a loving way? Or, what do you define as bigotry and how can it be avoided? Thanks
Dr. Ortlund, I'm Catholic and I love your channel! You have such a charitable approach to debate, which I very much appreciate. I believe the sad truth is very few Christians, regardless of tradition, actually know and understand why they believe what they believe. So sad. The body of Christ can do better. May God bless you and Cameron abundantly. Thank you for your work.
Thank you Felicia, may the Lord bless you!
Thank you Gavin! I'm a Pastor in the Philippines, educated in the states but been struggling with the arguments of Scott Hahn, Cameron from Capturing Christianity and many other Protestants converting. Been on the rocky boat lately as I have been spiritually monotonous and when I visited a Catholic Church one time, with it's architecture and maybe of the new ideas plaguing me, I felt like I was more closer to God and can sense that more intimate spiritual connection while inside that church.
Your response has been a great help to me, as I don't really find in depth sources defending our position.
Keep up the good work, we need more people like you. God bless you brother!
You are really the final boss of online protestantism. I don't wanna like a Baptist but you really help me to stand on the Protestant ground. Thank you sir. Your voice is necessary.
Thanks! It's funny, people make SO much of me being a Baptist and a Calvinist -- but I get it.
@@TruthUnites You being a Calvinist should not be in the least shocked or surprised or even comment on Cameron converting to Catholicism since your Calvinistic deity God predestined Cameron to become Catholic in the first place , so why are you commenting on it and not simply telling you're flock of 16th century johnny come lately theological cult members this is what God has predestined
@@catholicapologetics7263you certainly do prove the saying of being able to tell a tree by its fruit
Why wouldn’t you wanna like a Baptist?
@Catholic Apologetics
Dear friend in Christ, I pray the Lord’s blessings upon you and your family. If you will permit me to say in love a strong word to you:
it dishonors the very photo of our Lord in your profile for you to speak so uncharitably to a brother in Christ like you did in this comment to Gavin.
You speak with both such grace and clarity. It resonates with me when you said to take your time to study Protestantism. I first became Christian when I was 13 but was always drawn to the Roman church. In good conscience I didn’t convert but went ahead and got baptized in a baptist church, joined the Assemblies of God in university, the Methodists upon graduation and now am Anglican (and I’m 45 now!) I’m still not done studying the Catholic church but in doing so, it has influenced my journey in Protestantism. Your channel is so helpful to help frame so many of these discussions and makes me realize I have so much more to study and learn. I’m grateful for all that you do here - thank you.
Catholic: Protestants can believe whatever they want
Jordan Cooper: Hold my book of concord
I love Jordan Cooper
Then why are there so many different denominations with different beliefs even to the point of lesbian pastors?
@@Defender_of_FaithWhy are there gay catholic priests?
Differences in beliefs in not uniquely protestant,and sinful and bad leaders is not uniquely protestant. I believe it was Jesus that said "take the beam out of your own eye before taking the beam out of your brothers eye".
@@Defender_of_FaithBecause hardness of human hearts still exists.
@@User_5tjk42gj9because those two pastors are married to each other, actively living a life in sin intentionally.
Just being a gay person is not a sin
Another good insightful video. You are quickly becoming one of my favorite Protestant UA-camrs (I myself am Protestant). Your emphasis on enriching modern evangelicalism with theology, church history, and theological retrieval are incredibly beneficial. Furthermore, your humility and overall attitude is very refreshing. Keep up the great work!
Thanks Jon, glad to be connected!
I'm a Catholic who follows you, and while I'm happy Cameron became Catholic (as I am Catholic and believe it's true), I get deeply frustrated by many (but not all) Catholics' inability to contend with Protestantism outside of caricatures. Many think rebuttals like "33k denominations" and "where in the Bible is only the Bible" are sound and are generally unwilling to make distinctions between, say, scholastic orthodox Lutheranism vs post-Second Great Awakening evangelicalism, all grouping it into the "protestant" bucket.
Catholics will be better Catholics and better Christians if they actually focused on understanding classical Protestantism, as our Protestant and evangelical friends have much to teach us.
And again, I say this as a convicted Catholic.
Thanks for the great comment
Very true.
Another unrelated addendum: I'm very curious about Cameron's Bayesian calculator. I hope he publishes it.
@@newglof9558 I think I would like to see that too
Point taken but i find evasion rather than debate if my antagonists attempto alter
I am a former Catholic, and the main difference is that Catholics never have assurance of salvation. They affirm we are saved by grace, but grace in the Catholic church is the help God gives you to perform meritorious works.
Do you know who else didnt have assurance of salvation? The millions of evangelicals in the world today that once said they were saved and believed it when they said it. Hmmmmm!
I’m currently Catholic and love that you made this video. Keep up the good work!
I agree 👍 I'm a Catholic convert myself. We need people like Gavin to keep us checked against our presuppositions and reasons for trusting in the truths of the Church.
Same here.
I recommend you guys look into the debates he’s had and rebuttals to his claims before you give him too much credit. He likes to assert that he’s well read but when you look into the evidence he misses the mark on so many issues only giving parts of the CC doctrines
@@charliego7375 Comparatively, though, you have to admit that Gavin gets it much better than the vast majority of other Protestants. I finished his video last night, and I only have a few concerns regarding Gavin's rebuttals. Primarily when it comes to the "need" for the Protestant Reformation in light of medieval scandals.
He is also leading a lot of souls astray.
I have to say Dr Ortlund you have become my favorite Protestant apologist and one of my favorite apologists period. I’m Catholic but I love your heart man!
Thanks Kevin! Glad to be connected to you.
Truly excellent thanks Gavin: historically informed, theologically astute, pastorally warm and gracious in tone. May this presentation be a blessing to viewers of whichever perspective.
Wow! Well said!
I’m Catholic and I love the way you are directing the conversation here past the old tired arguments and into the minutia of what are the actual concerns that Protestants “should” have with Catholicism.
thanks, so glad to hear that
I agree, this gentleman and Mike Winger are probably the only protestant even worth listening to in this topic. And I do sincerely appreciate that. Because usually is almost comedic.
But.... still a long way to go and a few blind spots to deal with....
Completely agree.
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”- St. Cyprian of Carthage (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
The actual concerns Protestants *should* have with RC is wherever it strays from the Word of God, particularly in its anathema of the true saving Gospel. But maybe concern with God's Word and the Gospel is "old and tired".
I just continue to be so thankful for your voice in this sphere, Gavin.
You could almost call Protestants contemplating Catholicism an Unreached Believer Group (playing on the idea of unreached people groups) and you’re one of the few ministers doing so much to engage them so well.
I think this is the FIRST intentionally charitable and thoughtful protestant interaction with Cameron's conversion that I have seen on all of UA-cam thus far. Thank you Gavin Ortlund for your careful interactions. It is indeed very helpful for BOTH sides of the argument to hear your thoughts on the subject. God bless.
I really appreciated point number one. I've often thought of it as pitting your local pastor against Thomas Aquinas - it's just not a fair fight. Further on that point, I've often thought, "if it wasn't for taking a class on Calvin with an incredible Anglican professor, I probably would've become Catholic very quickly." I don't even claim the title Calvinist, but in studying the best of the Reformation, I was able to get a much different picture of the Reformation.
I grew up protestant, and my dad has been a pastor most of my life. I recently was married to a protestant, who now has decided to become Catholic. It’s been such a struggle and definitely has tested my trust and faith in God. It’s very confusing and I’m just praying and trusting that the Lord will guide him. I am so glad I found your channel. It’s been extremely encouraging. Thank you so much!
glad its been helpful! May the Lord direct you and guide you
My husband is protestant and I was a Catholic, just pray that ur husband truly seek the Lord. He may have a perspective and share with others in the Catholic church. There are saved Catholics in the RCC, they're just better Christians than Catholics and really don't believe all the doctrines of the church.
@kennethchidozie3317Lmao. Dramatic much?
Classic prodastantism really comes down to martin Luther and his axe to grind with the red Catholic hierarchy of his day.
Luther was a Catholic priest. Very devoted to the faith. The church was in the time of corruption internally in lots of political wrangling . So they were involved in personal infighting .
Luther was a man with personal issues. He had a great sense of self loathing. It manifested itself in his inability to accept God's mercy and live his life as best he could. He got to the point by where he decided that because he was never going to be good enough . The only avenue was to just have faith. Because in his mind his acts his work. His holyness was never going to be good enough. That's were this is idea of faith alone comes from. It's really kind of pride to think that way. And with the church being corrupt selling indulgences and misrepresenting what that aspect of the faith was there for. He got hopeless and just bailed out of the church. He never wanted to leave the church. But a series of events took place. And then we got the split of from that came the church of England because Henry 8 the wanted out of his union. If Luther can do it so can I. And then we got Calvin's methodists
Baptists are a product of this but morphed into an American church.
And so it goes.
So classic prodastantism is really based after misinterpreted faith one man's pain and a progression of practices that have gotten away from the true mission of the church. That being the salvation of our souls. The way Jesus helped this prossess was giving us tolls and his graces to keep us strong day to day.
Things like holy Communion
Confession
Marriage
Last rites
Baptism
Holy orders
And one more I can t remember
These were tools that the prodastants church disregarded because they were administered by the Catholic Church.
But these things are the very things that we need for holyness day to day. .
To be born again and your all good and going to heaven because Jesus Christ is your savior is an oversimplification sold to us over the years . Why because someone somewhere decided this stuff was that old Catholic guilt stuff we don t need. It wasn't t guilt . It was protection . So in my opinion the prodastant reformation has done more harm because it disregarded the really special things Jesus put before us to help us gain salvation. And now it's mainstay thinking. One has to go back to the beginning and really get serious about the faith. When you do this. You'll become Catholic again because you will have all the facts.
@@hayeslincoln3111well thats one way of putting it, but also a careful study of greek grounded sola fide
Man, Dr. Ortlund, you are a pastor's pastor. Hearing your approach to difficult conversations is a balm to my soul.
Thank you for your faithfulness in ministry. I know you were planning to be away from UA-cam during this time. I hope you have a restful Thanksgiving with your family.
Thanks friend. We are heading up into the mountains for a few days for the holiday. Looking forward to unplugging.
This blessed me much. As someone who grew up as an active Protestant who loves the Lord I have been dealing with a lot of confusion as of late in regards to Catholicism and Protestantism and feeling enticed by certain things I see firsthand in the Catholic Church yet deeply disturbed by others. Thank you for being a much needed answer to prayer. May the Lord bless you and the work you do for Him and His people.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV
Man how I wish I could have a conversation with you. I'm a Religion teacher in a catholic school, and I really appreciate when there is respectful dialogue on these sort of things. Even as a Catholic I don't agree with many views held by Cameron as for why he converted to catholicism in the sense that he might prove those specific reasons wrong and fall into a deep spiritual struggle. Also I thank you so much for being so respectful and for sharing these views which I try to consider as best as I can since I also have non-catholic students and my best friend is protestant as well.
God bless you🙏 Even though I don't agree with everything you say I thank you for articulating your thoughts and giving me a true deep insight into protestant thinking
Its true Cameron seemed very logical in his process...I converted as well and will admit it was a logical process but, and hopefully Cameron got to this point, you have to let logic go and let the Holy Spirit led you to take that final leap of faith and not rely on your reason and intellect alone....good point
This was very thought provoking. I feel convicted by your appeal to deeper reading, when it is all too tempting to watch videos (however excellent) and call it good. With prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit, I have faith we will be led in the right way.
@Christ Is King thank you for the kind thoughts! God bless you as well.
I think deep down Cameron had always wanted to convert to Catholicism, whether he was aware of it or not. He often spoke of approaching the issue objectively, but he also expressed how he had always been drawn and attracted to the external beauty of Catholicism. Unfortunately, this leads me to think that he wasn’t quite as objective in his assessment as he had hoped or claimed to be.
Listen, Catholic cathedrals are absolutely beautiful and stunning, but so are Buddhist temples. If your starting point in evaluating truth is based on aesthetics, that’s a very dangerous position to navigate from.
Yeah, I realized this as well. No big surprise. I think he was just looking for someone to validate his choice.
Why can't the same exact thing be said with you rejecting Catholicism and staying in your Protestant bubble?
@@apracity7672 because I don’t base my belief on subjective qualities like aesthetics. I have no problem attending a church service in a basement if the message being preached is truth. Beauty not grounded in truth is at best, meaningless, or at worst, deceptive.
@@joelblack2591 Do you subjectively prefer Protestantism and for that reason, deep down, is why you reject Catholicism? Emotion based decisions, rather than an objective analysis of the data?
If I'm wrong, you should be able to clearly explain why Catholicism is wrong and why Protestantism is objectively true.
@@apracity7672 Do I subjectively prefer Protestantism? I mean, I prefer any church that teaches biblical truth. But Not all churches perceived to be part of “Protestantism” are biblical. For example, I would not attend any church that teaches prosperity gospel or “name it and claim it” doctrine. If Catholicism abandoned its unbiblical or questionable teachings/doctrine, then I’d be fine being part of the Catholic Church.
HI Gavin,
Catholics don't confess to men AND to God. We only confess sins to God. In the sacrament of confession, we confess our sins to God through a man. Jesus works through the priest. When I go to the priest I know that I am speaking to God through the priest and when the priest says "By the ministry of the church, I absolve you of your sins...." I know it is Jesus speaking to me through the church. When I hear those words spoken by the priest - there is nothing better - so beautiful and so freeing. I love Confession. Confession is healing because Jesus is there and His grace is present through the priest!
When protestants confess to each other, I would imagine it is totally different - your friend/pastor could never say the words "I absolve you of your sins"....or, would they?
You are right, there were problems in the church during the reformation. But Luther wasn't the only reformer - there were good Catholics calling for reform during the time of Luther- But, unlike Luther they did not break away from the church.
The Augustine Institute has a series called "True Reformers" which shows how others, during the time of Luther, were able to reform without causing division. Also, Dr Tim Gray has some videos about Martin Luther where he mentions that the reformation was beginning long before Luther and there were many great saints during the reformation who helped reform the church - such as Saints Ignatius of Loyola, Thomas More, Francis de Sales, Philip Neri, Charles Borromeo, and Teresa of Avila.
The fact that the church needed reforming isn't a case against Catholicism. I think it is more important to understand HOW someone seeks to reform. If your version of reform involves disobedience and division - that is not true reform - at least not in my opinion. True reform is a call to deeper prayer - to a more sincere and profound relationship with Christ.
Is the Catholic church wrong about Islam?
@@elvisisacs3955 I think Gavin was trying to say that Protestants also have a form of confession (where a person confesses sins to a man, not just to God privately). He gave examples of protestants who form "accountability" type groups - the members confess their sins to each other and hold each other accountable. But, I don't think the two are comparable. The Protestant version of "confession" is completely different - the pastor/friend would never say "by the ministry of the church, I absolve you of your sins..." Although, I would agree that an accountability group could be a nice and beautiful thing - it's not really comparable to sacramental confession.
Gavin is concerned that Catholics do not have assurance of salvation and he is concerned that we are "required" to go to confession if we have committed a mortal sin. Also, he thinks we Catholics experience stress wondering if we are in a state of Grace or not.
We may not be certain about our state of Grace - but, we can be absolutely assured that God's love for us endures and is eternal - He will never stop loving us regardless of our sins. AND we have absolute assurance that if we turn to Him with a contrite heart, he will forgive us. We have assurance that if we do commit a mortal sin, we can ask for forgiveness (through the sacrament of confession) and we WILL be forgiven - and Grace will be given! Sacraments are assured channels of Grace. Isn't that comforting? Is that not enough? O, the great gifts of assurance God has given through the church!
@@gospeltruth6368 As a cradle Catholic Muslims can be SAVED. Anyone who is PURE in Heart will see God.
@@AJ_Jingco You mean someone worshipping a false god is PURE in Heart. Would you extend your charity to idol worshippers who you deem PURE in Heart, too?
@@AJ_Jingco so then they will see Jesus, and become a Christian.. is that what you mean? Because Jesus said no one could come to His Father except through Jesus himself.
Best Protestant response to Cameron's conversion that I've come across. No underhanded gibes or straw-manning of either side, but solid theological arguments and charitable seeking of the Truth. If I weren't already tied down by my philosophy readings and a deep dive into Catholicism (so as not to strawman my own faith), I'd definitely take a look at those book recommendations--maybe a side project after I've learned the Catholic faith better!
glad you found it useful!
I've been looking forward to this video ever since I saw his announcement.
Love your work Dr. Ortlund. You're doing great things for us who aren't scholars on church history! I'm working on it, but there's so much material to get into
Thanks Nate! So glad it's been of use.
This was a much much better and more thought through video than my response video. It was helpful indeed.
glad you found it helpful!
Yeah this sure was worlds better than yours was. Some of the most un-Christian conduct I've ever seen coming from you.
Mine wouldn’t have been terribly helpful. I watched Cameron for a couple of years. This was not at all surprising, but he had no foundation in real, Biblical theology. You have my sympathy.
@@KristiLEvans1 What a load of hogwash. How do you know what level of knowledge he had regarding theology. The fact of the matter is that you don't. You merely think he did and voice that as being the primary reason that he converted. In your mind, if everyone knew their Biblical theology, then they wouldn't become Catholic. Well I hate to break it to you, but many Catholics know their Bible and still disagree with you.
@@gch8810 what’s “hogwash”, specifically? Do you believe that the entire rest of the world can’t see that your magisterium is doing handstands, as regards theology?
I was blessed when I converted to Catholicism in that I didn’t lose any friends of family. Everyone was great. But you’re right, that’s not everyone’s case. You’re right, people’s decisions either way should be respected. Can’t imagine doing it in the public eye. Praying for Cameron and his family and ministry. Glad to welcome him home and excited to see what happens in the future for him!
I always see you commenting on every single protestant video saying "Baptist to catholic because of the Eucharist"
As an ex-catholic myself Many protestants celebrate Eucharist
And You may be aware about the scams happening in Catholic churches in the name of Eucharist!!!
@@theknight8524 What scams in the name of the Eucharist are taking place exactly?
@@brittoncain5090 It seems we’re not going to get an answer, but I’d like to know too. Haven’t heard anything like that.
@@theknight8524 then youre ex catholic right?
You didn't know that this i already in scriptures and Apostle are doing it The Eaucharist practice because Jesus said in the Last Supper do in memory of me
What apostles and Early Christians do?
Well read this
1cor 10:16-17 Read that verse if its a scam even Jesus are telling his apostle to remember with him do this Eucharist in memory of him
Read
16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?
17 For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.
@@brittoncain5090 i was an eastern Catholic but i will link to a video if you want👇
ua-cam.com/video/FiieOiq-NvU/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/PDTvzhWl9-s/v-deo.html
Eucharist scams in eastern countries is quite often and my main point was protestants celebrate Eucharist.
Great break down! Would love to hear you break down the branch theory more. I’ve been saying something similar after coming back from Jerusalem
Thank you! I am hoping to do another video on this....
You are next in line! Keep romancing Trent Horn...and the catholic hawks will descend on you. Will you survive their onslaught?
Would love a video from you Ruslan to get your perspective on his conversion or even having Cameron on your show.
I think (I know nobody really cares what I think) Cameron will regret leaving Protestantism for Catholicism.
Protestants don’t hate Catholics(or at least they shouldn’t). But there is a reason why there needed to be Reform.
Thanks once again for being the voice we all need!
Left protestantism after 40+ years (served as elder and deacon) and became Catholic 5 years ago. At one point you just have to follow what you believe as truth. Lost friends, but I do not regret it one second. But I have great respects for my protestant brothers as many of them put me to shame by their great love of Christ and the Bible.
Yup… and I’m an agnostic now, I suppose for the same reason 😅
Seek the truth! Question yourself.
So yeah I totally agree that valuing intellectual honesty is great
@@azophi Agreed! You should always be questioning yourself and searching for new facts. For me the case for Christ was just too strong to even consider Agnosticism. But we can only base yourself on what we know and learn. When you stop learning, then you slowly wither away ...
@@stephanelarochelle2484 fair enough. I’ll keep reaching out towards the truth! I still go to church haha I just don’t partake in the sacraments. (Well a Protestant church)
@@azophi Same for me, it is a lifelong search 🙂
Very sad ....how could you believe in Marian Doctrines??? No fondation at all in scripture .....how could you kneel before a statue .....?? Adore communion bread .....?? Do this IN REMEMBRANCE of me ....and how could you believe in pergatory??? Not in scripture ...no church fathers beleives RC teaching of pergatory today.......I WAS BORN ROMAN CATHOLIC....WAS ALL MY LIFE ....NEVER KNEW THE BIBLE ...NEVER KNEW JESUS PERSONNALLY ....i see multitudes in my RC Land not knowing God ....my grandmother going up 25 stairs on knees to statue of Ste Anne .....lighting candles ....RCC is abusive wrong ....priests controlled my country for générations ...i see freedom of protestant Lands and slavery of RC Lands....STUDY ....TRAVEL ...LEARN ...
Gavin, you are the man. You are my guide in this issues, God permits. Keep it on, and write books. Blessings from Argentina from a young boy here.
glad to be connected to you Manuel!
What an amazing response, thanks Gavin for all the work you do.
I felt exactly the same watching Cameron’s explanation of his conversion. For example, at one point he mentioned how, as a photographer, he felt deeply attracted by Catholic churches, whereas Protestant churches are just “ugly”. I was shocked! Has he ever heard of St Paul’s Cathedral in London? How is he not aware of the thousands of beautiful Protestant churches in America, the UK, Germany, the Netherlands, and many other historically Protestant Countries?
Unfortunately, for a lot people, their only exposure to Protestantism comes down to modern, highly emotional, Charismatic-like churches.
Definitely a fair point! I have a background in conservative Presbyterianism and am currently Episcopal in Catholic RCIA.
@@elizabeth.annrose what do you mean episcopal RCIA?
@@charliego7375 I am a confirmed Episcopal seeking to convert to Catholicism via RCIA. Hope this clarifies.
@@elizabeth.annrose yes that makes sense. Thank you and may God bless you on your journey welcome home sister.
@@charliego7375 thank you so much! I love Catholicism! God bless you!✝️🙏
I definitely agree with reading widely. I've spent 11 years voraciously reading all kinds of things from both sides, the patristics, theologians, historians, scholars, apologists, councils, the CCC, Newman, Augustine, Aquinas, Reformation history, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the synod of Dort, Wesley, etc. I even took a church history class under Dr. Mayhew. After all the research and study I am even more deeply convinced of Protestantism. My Catholic friends would tell me if I just read the Fathers I would convert, or if I just read this or do this or that I would convert (much of the advice or reading recommendations I had already studied in detail on my own anyways) but after each challenge I would always come out more strongly convinced and reaffirmed that I am in the correct belief as a Protestant Christian.
Are you comfortable with the doctrinal divisions given Jesus’s prayer in John 17?
@@daniels3537 I've never considered it a strong argument for Catholicism actually, if you look at the chaos and divisions in the current "Francis pontificate " it's really bad and it's like calling the kettle black. Atleast almost all of the denominational stuff from Protestantism is on secondary theological issues that Christians have liberty to agree to disagree on.
@@daniels3537 also it has seemed to me that many Catholic apologists make a huge jump from Unity to truth...even if they were unified (which they are not) it doesn't follow that unity necessarily equates to truth. Of course I'm not making a one to one comparison but it will serve well enough for the point. The nazis were unified under hitler that jews were an inferior race (it doesn't follow that therefore it is true).
@@daniels3537 also I take John 17 to ultimately be more of a statement of fact in the unity of the ultimate union of all the born again believers worldwide (the invisible church) rather than necessarily unity meaning absolute agreement of every jot and title of theological nuances.
Sorry…just getting back to this. Regarding your first comment, you didn’t address my question. I asked if you are comfortable with the current state of disunity within Christendom. I think too many Christians take it as status quo, despite Jesus’s fervent prayer in John 17. In you gut, do the divisions that currently exist *not something that fall within the scope of Jesus’s prayer?
Dr. Ortlund makes a bold claim at 8:30 that confession to a priest is categorically essential for the forgiveness of mortal sins in Catholic theology. But he has neglected to mention the possibility of contrition outside of confession. Attrition is the state in which the Church teaches the absolute necessity of confession. But not so with contrition. This is what allows Catholics to believe that non-Catholic Christians can still be saved.
@@elvisisacs3955 I don't think his claim stands since it is actually false. He clearly said that after mortal sin one is damned without the sacrament of confession according to Catholic teaching. He is trying to exaggerate the ills of catholicism.
@YAJUN YUAN I'm not making the claim as a matter of fact myself since I am not Catholic, but I do believe this is a distinction that Catholic teaching makes. It allows for the forgiveness of unconfessed (sacramentally) mortal sins if one has perfect contrition.
Gavin, I greatly respect you and the ways in which you went about this video.
I am a Protestant currently seeking to become Catholic, and I just wanted to share what I took issue with most in your video. When you discussed mortal sin, you almost made it seem like Protestants don't want their congregants to know how serious certain sin is - you mentioned contraception, for example, and implied it is a bit ridiculous to tell people that its use severely separates them from God. However, I'm deeply thankful that Catholics do share the severity of these sin issues. If I'm in sin, if I'm separated from God, if I'm mistakenly believing something I'm doing is okay when it's not, I want to know about it. I want to know that things like contraception do grieve God, and that they do harm me. Since adopting NFP my marriage has been completely transformed, and I am so deeply thankful to the Catholic Church for not being afraid to talk about these issues and to tell people just how serious they are. Paradoxically, I haven't experienced that as burdensome - rather, it's set me free to live the life He calls me to in greater clarity and truth. Thank you for your perspective, always!
Gavin,
I love what you are doing here. You model the kind of thoughtful and reflective faith that is so desperately needed in the Evangelical Church today. I recently started my own channel to serve a similar purpose. Keep it up brother.
I can't tell you just how thankful I am for your ministry and channel. Please be encouraged. God is speaking through you to bring wisdom, unity, peace and closeness with Christ.
Thanks
Thank you Stanley!
A few notes:
@8:38 - It isn't quite the case that dying without going to Confession means you go to Hell. The Catechism (section 1452) states that sincere repentance based on the love of God, with the intention to go to Confession, will remit mortal sins in such an instance of sudden death.
@10:07 - OK, what I was wondering here is: Does the "classical" Protestant tradition recognize that there is such a thing as a mortal sin? (That is, a sin which - if committed with sufficient knowledge and volition, scuttles communion with God) If there is such a concept within classical Protestantism.... then it isn't essentially different than Catholicism on the matter. It seems all we're doing is haggling over what counts as one and what you have to do if you commit one.
To say are Catholics in a state of anxiety... well, seems presumptive. Does Matt Fradd seem anxious?
Plus, the fact that a certain ideology leads to reduced anxiety does not mean it is more true. Universalism and antinomianism would probably produce the least possible anxiety for Christians, but that doesn't mean universalism and antinomianism are true. We cannot say, "This causes anxiety therefor it is false."
I think we should base our beliefs on the best evidences for and against them, not upon the feelings they supposedly cause. It might be that Christians CAN lose their salvation and ARE supposed to work out their salvation in fear and trembling, and to live in reverent fear. That's where the discussion needs to be.
(I'd also note that this isn't so much about the proper interpretation of James 5, but of John 20.)
@14:00 - This goes to a critique which I know I've mentioned to you a few times: When discussing the freedom which a Protestant has to look at the tradition and determine what aligns with Scripture and the form of Christianity - you praise the lack of overarching authority in Protestantism. But when a Catholic points to this exact same thing to propose that Protestantism also suffers from the downsides of individualism, you say there's plenty of authority within Protestantism.
It seems one has to choose a lane in drive in it. To think that Protestantism has all the boons of private discernment with NONE of the associated downsides seems unrealistic. They enjoy both the upsides and downsides of it. Just as Catholics enjoy the upsides and downsides of not having it.
@22:30 - The argument that Protestantism was necessary because Catholics persecuted non-Catholics would hold more force if Protestants didn't turn around and persecute Catholics. But they did. My people suffered greatly under the holy heels of their enlightened betters.
Otherwise stated: If the sordid history of Catholic persecuting Protestants means Catholicism should not be joined today.... what does the sordid history of Protestants persecuting Catholics mean? Is it somehow different when they did it? Or did they not do it, and Nicholas Pieck died of natural causes?
@45:58 - If we're talking about difficulties in getting along and reaching communion, it seems we are talking about on-the-ground realities. It is true that the original magisterial Protestants recognized that Catholics had valid baptisms and were Christians. However, the on-the-ground reality is that many, many Protestants don't recognize Catholics as validly Christians - having been taught by their pastors that they are not. This is an obstacle too, right?
thanks -- just out the door but will try to respond later...
Just had time to get back to this. Thanks for your always thoughtful comments. A few replies.
1. I understand there are exceptions to mortal sin requiring confession; that is not at odds with what I said. I am simply repeating the language of magisterial teaching, and the exceptions do not detract from my point, so far as I can see.
2. "Does Matt Fradd seem anxious?" Of courage not ALL Catholics are in observable anxiety ALL the time. The concern is with the relative ease with which one can pass from a state of grace, and that this is where the discussion should focus between Catholic and Protestant, not whether we confess sin to human beings or God alone.
3. I am not sure that I "praise the lack of overarching authority in Protestantism" -- not sure what you are referencing. But the general point would be that Protestants have freedom on peripheral matters, but that does not mean there is NO authority in Protestant churches. The idea that "you can believe whatever you want" is not true of Protestantism. Yet it is true we do not yoke the conscience to late accretions like the bodily assumption of Mary. There is no inconsistency here. Freedom on some things is not freedom on everything.
4. Protestant persecution of Catholics is not comparable. I have explained this in my video on the Hussites. Its like comparing Texas to Rhode island. Catholic persecution was also approved by the highest authorities and rooted in Catholic theology. There is no piece of Protestant theology like Unam Sanctam, which claimed the pope has power over the temporal sword, or Ad extirpanda, which legitimized torture. I am not simply criticizing Catholic sins when I talk about persecution, I am criticizing Catholic theology.
5. Not sure why you reference the "on the ground reality" that many Protestants don't think Catholics are Christians. Many others do, and we are not bound by on the ground dynamics, but official theology. The official Protestant view is that the Church of Rome is a church, albeit one beset with errors; you do not say the same of us.
@@TruthUnites : I would write lengthy response, elaborating on certain points. But I keep reading and re-reading the statement, mouth agape, that violence against Catholics is not comparable to violence against Protestants. Not comparable. What can I even say?
@@actsapologist1991 its not comparable. For starters, as I said, it was justified by Catholic theology, which claimed power over the temporal sword, and allowed for torture to extract confessions. I mentioned two specific papal bulls in my last comment. Protestant theology does not have such claims. Then, there is the scale of it. Add up all the inquisitions and crusades against heretical groups, its way bigger than Protestant persecution of Catholics. It's not even close. Historians generally consider the Catholic crusade against the Cathars an example of religious genocide. It is so offensive when Catholics downplay these atrocities.
@@TruthUnites : Can you bring yourself to at least say it was bad? Are we... animals?
I'm glad you posted this video; I pretty much agree with it entirely.
Excellent video! Thank you so much, Gavin!
Re: recognizing Catholics as brothers: my husband grew up nominal Catholic in Brazil, a predominantly Catholic nation, and then actually decided to follow Christ in a Protestant church. It actually took me (raised in a Protestant home) to convince him that there are true believers among both Catholics and Protestants (I pointed to one of his favorite singers, Matt Maher, as an example). Sadly, It was something he didn’t think he saw in his life among Catholicism. It’s all-too-easy to write off people as “the other side,” especially when we see people “convert,” though we gather around the same Savior.
I love your diplomacy, charity, and honesty. Thank you so much for your work!
thank you! Glad it was helpful! And great point about how easy it is to write off the other side.
In your opinion, what are the criteria for being a „true believer“?
It's frustrating in part because I don't think Cameron has thought through the full implications of consenting to the magisterium. You have to consent, for example, to the execution of Jan Hus and concede that forgiveness of sins was given for participating in the crusade against the Hussites. And that's just one example.
Cameron was wishy-washy on every issue - he didn’t even know why he believed what he believed
@@duckymomo7935 We should not insult or speak without tact. We need to realize the danger of this branch of Christianity called mere Christianity. It's dangerous and many of our church members are in it, whether they know it or not.
@@australopithecusafarensis8927 Nope. God's command to kill the Canaanites was directed towards gross evil like child sacrifice, bestiality, murder, etc. The conquest of the Hussites was a conquest of fellow Christians who preached that the church didn't have a right to use the sword against other Christians.
No where in the catechism does it say that the Church is sinless? That is a bizarre concept. Many atrocities have been committed by and in the name of all the world religions., and continue to this day.
Out of all the possible examples you choose an execution? Bruh who cares lol
Thank-you so much for this! We needed a video like this, and what a well done video it is.
Glad it was helpful!
Really appreciated your thoughts on Bayesian analysis. I have always struggled to understand why Cameron considers this to be a sound way of coming to theological conclusions.
In and of itself it doesn't. What it does is account for probability.
@Deborah Faith Thompson they’re not probabilities as such. It’s just an analytic way of attaching probabilistic values based on his own subjective perception of the rhetoric of the given arguments. He’s basically assigning numeric values to how compelling he thinks certain arguments are to remove potential bias as a factor.
As someone who leans Catholic, I agree. Every time he starts going off about his Bayesian analysis, I can’t help but think that he’s thinking too much like an atheist lol
Thanks for your reflections Gavin, you have been a very thoughtful and fair voice for all of us watching Cameron's journey
I didn't leave Catholicism. I followed Jesus. That was away from the Catholic institution. & I pray to always follow him wherever he lead me.
Me2! Where did you go for Sundays now?
@@KM-zn3lx Saturday evenings with a non denominational church where the word is taught and the gifts of the Spirit are in operation.
Dr.Gavin , your videos are truly a blessing and very informative .
as someone who comes from a pentecostal background who are basically extremely bad at history and good at seeing the smaller picture and accusing the other side , you help me open my mind to great extend without having hatred to our friends in rome .
I really love your videos , I usually suggest your videos since they are less bashing and more of open criticism with love and putting stone in the opponents shoe .
i look forward to hear and learn more from you
God bless your ministry as well as your Fam .
Love from India ❤
thanks, so glad they have been helpful!
Great reflection/feedback as always. Given all the people Cameron has interviewed, his comments displayed a surprising degree of ignorance regarding the faith he claimed to profess. The OT comment specifically made me wonder what kind of churches he has attended.
I came to the comments to see if anyone was as completely blown away by his comments on the Old Testament. Goodness gracious 😬
Especially since Gavin sat down and explained everything as Gavin does so well. Cameron is still a brother in Christ
That’s an excellent perspective.
Yes, that old testament comment was so weird. I had just assumed someone with his platform would have had a better grasp of his own faith.
I appreciate your videos, Gavin. I started looking into Catholicism, but the more I dug into it, the more I saw half-truths and bizarre wordplay as the primary defense of Roman Catholic teachings and apologetics. Most of the issues I took with the Catholic church before I really dug into it were descendant dogmas from the papacy. I always wondered why they seemed so clearly in error, but didn't know enough about Catholic theology to realize that most of these errors arise directly from the purported infallibility of popes. When you pull the thread, the papacy itself crumbles into obvious error, which necessitates a much deeper look at the allegedly infallible dogmas espoused by the office over time. There are certainly some aspects of Catholic thought that have pushed my thinking closer to that of the RC church, but the papacy itself is just so theologically and historically frail.
Thanks for the video Gavin. I am curious, at 30:23 you say it's "not responsible" to enter or leave Protestantism without reading the best voices on both sides. And I do agree viewing both sides is important, but I also think a person's conversion can be justified even if they don't do that. For example, do you feel the same about someone becoming Christian? Would it be "irresponsible" to become Christian if you never read the best defenders of atheism and/or critics of Christianity? Or could the Holy Spirit simply convict them enough to justify conversion without doing that (which could apply to Protestantism or Catholicism, I suppose). Anyways, curious on your thoughts and looking forward to our debate in March!
I guess a preliminary though would be that Cameron seemed to highlight how much he is following the evidence and put quite some emphasis on it. So it is reasonable to expect that given that, you would avail yourself of the best of Protestantism, which from some of the clips Gavin played, it seems like he did not. I probably would not expect someone who got convicted by the HS in a context very different to apologetical arguments and such to have read the best of either side and so i wouldn’t say in that case that, they were being irresponsible for becoming Christian. Just my unprocessed thoughts
Hey Trent, good to hear from you. I certainly agree the Holy Spirit can bring about conversion swiftly, with relatively little intellectual processing. The focus of this video is an intellectual conversion where someone is watching UA-cam videos or listening to podcasts over a period of time, but not necessarily reading books or engaging the best representatives of each side. Yes, I'd certainly say the same for that kind of conversion with regard to Christianity. In fact, I think I gave the example of someone leaving Christianity without reading Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig, etc. I think that is not responsible simply because we should consider each view at its best when we are making such a decision. I'd add that if someone is publicly representing a particular position, it is especially important to engage its most accurate/capable proponents, at least some of them. So it seems to me, let me know if you think that is off base. Perhaps we are envisioning different scenarios, and thus not necessarily disagreeing.
@@TruthUnites We probably don't disagree that much and I didn't get a chance to watch your whole video. I'm not sure where to draw the line on how much a person needs to read to have an intellectually responsible conversion. You could spend your whole life reading works defending Protestantism, Catholicism, atheism, etc. My biggest concern would be that it seems like there should be symmetry between the amount of research we expect someone to do before they leave our faith vs. the amount we expect before they convert to our faith (otherwise we seem opportunistic). Something I'll have to think about more and perhaps you could address it in future content.
@@TheCounselofTrent yes, I agree I do not know where the exact cut-off point is, either. Only God knows a person's heart, and where they are coming from. You raise a fair point that our standards should go both ways for such conversions. Yes, I am sure we will have a chance to talk more, Lord willing.
@@TruthUnites If someone is converting to my perspective, they are permitted to read half the number of books regularly required. If it is an opposing perspective, double the usual requirement.🙂
I appreciate this video. I think it helps a lot of us out here who are processing Cameron's announcement. It also shed's light on the subject that otherwise wouldn't have had an opportunity to shine.
26:30 - to the point that people derive knowledge from YT/podcasts - That's honestly one thing that terrifies me about having a UA-cam channel
I know, right? It’s like when I post sermons and I feel like I need a disclaimer: *not to be used as a replacement for church*
This is exactly the video that needed to be made at exactly the right time. Thank you, Gavin.
Looking back at Cameron's journey towards this decision, I have a feeling he leaned towards the group he felt more loved by. As a protestant this saddens me terribly.
To add two sources: John Williamson Nevin, Mystical Presence (eucharistic theology), and TF Torrance, Incarnation and Atonement (robust soteriology)
Hey Gavin, Catholic here, always love your thoughtful and charitable videos.
I have a problem I'd like to take up with you though, in this video you rebuke caricaturing protestant views by always taking the low-church, evangelical extreme.
My issue is, you give a Methodist answer to the question of confession. You give an Anglican answer to the question of authority and reverence. Yet you are neither a Methodist nor an Anglican. A Presbyterian or reformed protestant would have serious problems with both points of view. You are a Baptist, I don't know how you handle doctrinal things in your church, but I know plenty of Baptists who will disagree with some of your views tooth and nail.
Why would you argue for "Protestantism" as a whole when it is not a universally nor internally consistent framework, but an umbrella term for a huge diverse variety of differing and rival frameworks united in only one thing: having split from the Catholic Church or from each other.
Cameron did not convert from "Protestantism to Catholicism", he converted from Non-denominational Pentecostal Evangelism to Catholicism. Why do you, as a Baptist, defend credal position that I would assume you do not hold? Why should any Baptist care more that an evangelical convert to the Catholic Church, than that he convert to the Anglican Church, two Churches that from the Baptist position should in theory be equally anathemized?
Edit: wrote the comment before finishing the video and getting your explanation of your view of a branching church. Still, you seem to be applying the word "baggage" to Catholic views even when they agree with classical protestant views you extol. Where is your hesitancy against prayer to the saints when it comes from Anglicans? What about the excesses in persecution of the Hussite movement (defenestration anyone)?
It seems you are applying standards to us that you do not acknowledge or apply to your protestant brothers and sisters, which is rather unfair.
I was thinking the same, but couldn't express it this well!
Because contrary to popular belief, Reformation Christianity has a ton of overlap between the branches. In fact, many of these historic creed carry massive theological agreement, and are pooled together to create a "catholic Protestantism". On theological fundamentals, Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, and Presbyterian historic creeds share an incredible amount. We have a tradition, with varying spiritualities within those traditions. Yes a presbyterian would have serious issues with both Anglicanism and Methodism, but the reality is we share an insane amount of theology, and can affirm most of what is contained in their creeds. Protestant obstinance, not true theological division, is the source of the animus. Clement of Rome was correct when he argued that the unity of the Church comes from obedience to God ultimately, and thus those divisions arise from not taking seriously the Pauline command "insofar as it depends on you, be at peace with all men."
This is a beautiful video. I went Catholic after, what I thought, was a lot of research. But after seeing some of your arguments on other videos, I've realized I haven't struggled nearly as much as I should have.
Thanks for what your doing!
Love this video! I'll repeat listen to it many times. Thank you 💖🙏
Have you ever considered starting a seminary? The balanced and irenic approach would be a breath of fresh air for the Christian world.
Thank you so much for responding to this Gavin. It's done wonders to calm my worries. I just discovered you the other day when I heard about Cameron's departure so I listened through his conversation with Matt Fradd, and then your video with him about the papacy. Currently just flying through your content because I love your solid logical processing and charitable attitude. Very grateful to have discovered this channel!
Thanks, so glad the videos have been useful!
We need more people like you speaking about true classical Protestantism. It’s severely lacking and people love to misjudge Protestantism.
Which sect out of the 25,000+ is "classical"? Protestantism is non-Christian absurdity and leads to Hell.
@J. Knight There aren't 25'000 protestant groups. There are probably about 10. Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Presbyterianism , Baptist, Methodisms, Pentascostalism being the major ones.
@@thyikmnnnn You can look this stuff up, you don't have to guess.
@@j.knight9335 What's your source ?
@@rach9466 Not if you have a basic historical knowledge of Christendom.
Dr Ortlund, you make the point that the reformation came about because in part there was a withholding of the Eucharist and that was not good , which I concur, why is it today, according to a published evangelical survey, communion on average is once a month or in some churches quarterly? As a Catholic I can go to mass everyday of the year and receive communion. So it appears that the real reformation (maybe counter reformation) and it’s current fruit was in Catholicism where now if I want communion as frequently as daily it is possible yet not so for the vast of Protestantism. If that is A reason or THE reason one may want to convert to Catholicism, based on belief in the real presence or importance of communion, then isn’t the Catholic Church today doing a better job than Protestantism as a whole in getting that sacrament to the believers?
Yes they are and if you research the Church withholding elements, it was because it was causing division. There was a movement pushing that you had to have BOTH for the sacrament ti be valid. That’s never been the case. The Church quashed it thankfully.
Cameron is still our brother, as are many Catholics, that is evidenced by their fruit
The divide is significant. Thank you for being so gracious while not sugar-coating the profound differences between the Roman system and classical Protestantism.
Absolutely love your no nonsense, clear cut and carefully thought words. Truly wise.
My comment on Gavin’s first appeal. His analogy says that Protestants are not all the same. Then when criticizing the sacrament of confession, he says that Protestants have assured salvation. Not all Protestants believe in assured salvation. The difficult thing about talking about or with Protestants about anything, is you cannot assume you know what they believe because it is different for each individual and church.
I noticed that also. He can use that defence for every teaching since Protestantism is all over the map. They can't agree on a definition of Sola Scriptura. Dr Gavin offers his but other Protestants don't have to accept his definition.
@@MrPeach1 You’re right to point out that Protestants can’t agree on what sola scriptura means, nor sola fide.
13:30 The difference is, catholic councils and documents hold authoritative weight along with the Holy Scriptures whereas the protestant documents such as the 39 articles are granted authority by those who believe it is in accord with the Scriptures. The Catholic documents are authoritative in there very essence not just granted authority by the individual who sees them as being faithful tradition to the Sacred Scriptures.
Catholics accept a unified teaching from authoritative sources, as long as those sources do not contradict scripture - scripture is still a measuring stick, but questions not answered in scripture can have authoritative answers. (Eg does the bible say this cannot be so)
Protestants do not have a unified teaching and require that any authoritative teaching be backed by an interpretation of scripture (eg.where is it in the bible)
I don't find the protestant formation any more resilient against error given the acceptance of private judgment (eg schism) within protestants.
My brother, who was not raised in the church at all, is the most Godly man I've ever met. In his relationship with God, in his service to God, in his service to his family and to his community...and he is a Baptist Pastor. I am a cradle Catholic that left. I think God recognises the deeply faithful more than the denominations. My Baptist brother saved me...just by watching him. I'm thinking of rejoining the Catholic faith...But my bro is probably the only truly Godly man I've witnessed
Thank you for your gracious defense of Protestantism, and your refreshingly loving demeanor. I found you through my friend @RuslanKD .
Thank you for your work Dr. Ortlund!
Such a thoughtful, generous and intellectually rigorous response. Thank you Gavin!
You have truly helped with big questions I have on church history and have been a great example of how to be gracious with our words and seasoned with salt. Praise God for your channel brother! I pray He would continue to bless it in Jesus name amen! ✝️
This is one of the best YT videos I have seen ever. - Reformed Protestant
God Bless you richly brother.
Some good points were made about the caricatures we all make from time to time.
As a Protestant-due to the claims of the Roman-Catholic Church-I started to study the historical beginnings of the Papacy, Marian Dogmas and Transsubstantiation and every of these three things »were not confessed« and believed before the early 5th and 6th century. Roman Papacy developed out of monarchical episcopate that itself developed in the 2nd and 3rd century and out of monarchical episcopate developed the Roman Papacy after the Roman Emperor Constantin executed the Constantinian Shift, where he ended the public persecution of Christians and also gave judicial authority to the bishop of Rome. (Constantine by the way was Arian, as his close friend Eusebius of Caesarea). Only after that development the rise of Roman-Catholic Dogmas and Papal edicts were released what formerly *only Emperors could do.* Before Constantine the bishops were subject to the Emperor while soon after Constantine gave judicial authority to the Roman Church Emperors were subject to the bishop of Rome. The historical interpretation of Matthew 16:18 confirms the fact that Papacy was never a doctrine of the early ante-nicene Church. The monarchical episcopate goes back to the 2nd century and all quotes-especially those who elevated the local bishops of the churches before Constantine were misinterpreted to be a support of Papacy. Pretty heavy to figure out *apart from the historical study of Church History* but when you do personal research you will see that the Roman-Catholic Church is not historical present before the effects of the Constantinian Shift. That is why Transsubstantiation is not found in the ante-nicene Church and that is why the 4 Marian dogmas were not found in the early church. The only thing the Roman-Catholic can do is to read their dogmas into ambiguous utterances of the ante-nicene fathers. The other thing they do to appear true is to use Apocrypha (Liber Qui Apellatur Transitus Id Est Assumptio Sanctae Mariae) that (!) three popes in a row rejected as fake and condemned. And today, Roman-Catholic says that these apocryphal writings contain truths that must be believed in order to be saved!
So that is why I can never become Roman-Catholic. All who convert to Catholicism are not seeing what they are doing and have no knowledge of the testimony of Church history. Sad that we are too lazy today to do personal researches that are not biased.
So here is my advice for all those doubters and sceptics who want to convert to Rome: begin with a historical research on Constantine and learn what actually happened in reality. Did you know that Constantine rejected the Council of Nicea in 328 - the very Council Constantine himself convoked in 325?
Gavin, you are definitely my favorite protestant apologist on UA-cam. I appreciate how clear you speak your content and it's done very compassionately. I practice the Catholic faith, and I really look forward and hope to see more collaboration videos!
Gavin, your videos have given me so much clarity. I was very close to converting to Catholicism because there are beautiful and true aspects that I had not experienced in Protestant church experience but on the other hand so many very clearly Roman influences that I could not find reason for anywhere in the Bible. You are one of the first Protestant apologists to explain the history and have such a beautiful balance in your approach that is kind and generous yet rooted in history and theology. Thank you so much for these videos, I will be purchasing your books! God bless :)
As always: your careful and charitable approach is enviable. Your channel would be a blessing to so many people. Should be one of the largest out there with how thoughtful and fair you are.
Wanting to receive the Eucharist really makes you change your life, wrestling with sins in our life is part of the Christian life and I would rather be uncomfortable in truth than ignorant in sin. And the Church truly is there for us to internalize the Gospel!
- "so that through them, you may participate in the divine nature" Peter
I think a lot of the frustration on the Protestant side came from the fact that (whether merited or not), Cameron often gave off the impression of not giving Protestantism a fair shake over the years. Placing strawmen of his (Evangelical/Protestant) camp against "steelmen" of the Roman party.
That's why so many of us are grateful for the work you do Dr. Ortlund, presenting a more thoughtfully nuanced and historically rich approach to "Protestantism."
👑
and also of not understanding the Catholic positions
@@pigetstuck Yeah, I thought it was particularly interesting how he characterized the difference between Catholic and Protestant approaches to Sacerdotal Confession:
Protestant -- "you have to confess directly to God"
Catholic -- "you _get_ to confess to a priest if you want to."
I find this rich as a Lutheran since our entire Reformation was started over corruptions within the practice of Confession. The way he described the Catholic position is actually the Lutheran approach ("all may, _none must_ .., some should"). The Catholic view is that you *have to* for certain types of Sin, making it a heavy burden rather than Gospel assurance for the participant struggling with guilt.
@@vngelicath1580 "confess your sins one to another"
The bankruptcy in some protestant churches makes one very bent toward conversion to Catholicism.
@@pigetstuck Tbf, that's not a great sedes doctrinae for sacramental confession (to a priest) -- I would say John 20/Matthew 28 are clearer foundations for the exercise of the keys.
"Confess your sins to one another" is more _consolation of the brethren_
Brand new subscriber here. Thank you for making this video. I'm a Protestant who finds it more plausible to believe than Catholicism. I haven't ever looked into the historicity of the beginnings of protestantism, so I really appreciate your recommendation to do so. I'm really looking forward to it!
Glad to be connected! That is great you are exploring Protestantism.
I’m also an ex-Protestant. Now happily Catholic. I’ve heard all the arguments from the various Protestantisms (plural). Can you have a debate with Jimmy Akin from Catholic Answers?
He had
You can find it in Jimmy's channel!!
Hey Gavin,
Just stumbled upon this! Just subscribed.
The number of Protestants who realize there are disputes with Catholicism are few. The number of Protestants who engage in the conversation are fewer, but the number of Protestants who have explored the best arguments of both sides and understand it at your level are rare to find. It can feel lonely being a Protestant that has gone through the ringer of Catholic defenses and made it out alive, so thanks for all you do!
Thanks, so glad to be connected to you!
There's a good chance I'd be Orthodox or Catholic if it wasn't for the work you've been doing Gavin so thank you
glad it's been helpful!
It would be better for your salvation if you were Catholic or Orthodoxy than Protestantism
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 Where did you find this information? Who told you this?
@@Compulsive-Elk7103i know many ex Catholic members who never got the gospel preached to them in a Catholic church and didn't even get saved or acquire salvation until they left. People who grew up in Catholicism and latter left all say the same thing. The Catholic church is deep down is paganism sprinkled with Christianity. Thousands upon thousands of ex Catholics all say the same thing. People are saved inside the Catholic church not because of their dictrine , but in spite of them
Best video ever! You have been my biggest intellectual support right now.
God bless you!
The more I read church history the less I am convinced of Catholicism. I am at a stage now where its almost impossible for me to become a Catholic so it's so strange when I see people convert. Maybe I'm just stupid and I'm missing something. The papacy is one of the most unconvincing things I've come across and I couldn't believe it even if I tried. Again, maybe I'm just too stupid to see what the fuss is about.
How far back did you go?
@@andrewpatton5114 the further back you go the more problems for catholics.
@@noahfletcher3019 How so?
@@andrewpatton5114 you don't get talk about any kind of papacy prior to 3rd century and the vague references to something like it are talking about it for the sake of utility not for all ages and all times.
@@andrewpatton5114 you don't get many of the Marian dogmas too. You don't get the real presence the further back you go. If you go as far back as the didace you don't get it there for sure but I know catholics hate that argument. If you go as far back as scripture you get zero doctrines about papacy.
Love and appreciate you greatly! Thank you for your bright and sharp insight 🙏
Dear Pastor Gavin,
I’ve watched several videos from Catholics in the past few months on various topics. There is one thing that I just can’t get by and that is that I find that most Catholics argue for and point to the Catholic Church as their main goal (not saying all, I also believe that there are brothers and sisters in Christ), but the videos are so intellectual, often empty and draining and it often boils down to “we have the better arguments”, everything is about the church fathers, but it is different with you, you point to the person of Jesus Christ, wanting people to put their trust in him and that is very prominent in you. It is your heart that is different.
And if that is the fruit of being solid in your Protestant beliefs, what else can one be than Protestant, for the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.
God bless you🙏🏼
I am always stimulated by your charism of teaching in the organic context of truth, love and unity. Thank you for your ongoing contributions to the universal Church. You are a passionate presenter. Thanks Gavin.
I really like your channel. I am trying to do a similar thing with mine, coming from a Protestant perspective but finding and celebrating truth in all Christian traditions.
I follow you on instagram♥️
Such a calm, thoughtful, logical approach to apologetics. No one was condemned to hell or labeled a heretic. We need more of that in the UA-cam space. In the end logic, not animus, rules the day.
Thank you very much for addressing this, Gavin.
Gavin, once again your irenic approach coupled with your unflinching stance is a blessing to the entire Church, (of all stripes). Two brief suggestions. One is what I believe is a very good primer for those who know little about Church History, and that is Gerald Bray’s “The Church”. The other, is not so much a theological work as a sociological one, but one which has very real import in this whole discussion and that is Sociologist, Reginald Bibby’s “Sociology of the Church”. In this book, Bibby accounts for many of the non-theological factors which keep folk in one denomination or another.
The confession of sin point:
I’m a youth pastor in a Charismatic Anglican Church, came into the church as evangelical Baptist roots, but reading Church history I was very tempted by Catholicism. And so I started digging deeper into Anglicanism, and many of the things that drawing me to Catholicism is found in Anglicanism and the right view of the history tends to kill the straw men (Henry VIII for instance).
We have the sacramental act of Absolution which is up to the congregant as to whether the priest should exercise this. It’s very similar to confession and there is something beautiful about the priestly prayer that is delivered really does feel ‘final’
Anglican is the church founded by King Henry so he could get a divorce right?
I'm Catholic that's the church founded by Christ
@@BryceCarmony hey bud thanks for your comment, but no, the Anglican Church was around long before King Henry. In around 1067 we have the king write to the pope to remind him that the king is the head of the Anglican Church rather than the pope. Only 20 odd years after the great schism. the Magna Carta also says the same, both documents pre-date the reformation.
There’s some lose evidence (because of archeological findings) that the Christian faith was in England before 70ad, but more solid evidence in the 4th Century.
So, yes while the Protestant Anglican movement was triggered partly by Henry, the Church in England, which has always been Called Anglican, has existed for a long, long time :)
Remember all denominations fit what little truth they have from the catholic catholic that’s why the Catholic Church is called coming home and entering the fullness of faith and truth
@@BryceCarmony Also steal church property
@@TheNathanMac England had been catholic twice as long as Protestant the foundation of the Protestant faith was built on adultry and thief of Church property