Registration is now open for next year's Oaxaca, Mexico trip! Join us for a week of exploring ancient and modern Zapotec culture together! Link: trovatrip.com/trip/north-america/mexico/mexico-with-ancient-americas-jan-2025 Please let me know if you have any questions! Traveler FAQ: trovatrip.com/about/traveler-faq
A topic nobody seems willing to mention is celebrated paleontologist Tim Rowe's New Mexico mammoth site, published in 2023 and securely dated to 37kya, lacking stone tools but rife with bone tools. People have been obliged to _mention_ Cerutti, even if they hasten to trot out caveats ("maybe it was construction equipment!") already settled in the original paper. But they seem even more terrified by Rowe's site. Why is American archaeology so uniquely afraid to upset the narrative? Who threatens?
Thanks for this video. I myself am a victim of the information shortage on western Mexico so had never heard of this culture, let alone knew anything about it. Thus, I found this video fascinating. That said, I believe the diorama representations of guys on poles are BOTH shamanic and "voladoric", in that the latter apparently evolved from practices of the former. Basically, every religion since the original shamanism has the religious leader climbing something to commune with the gods and then deliver their message to the audience. Even Christianity, with the pulpits in churches and story of Jacob's Ladder in the Bible. BUT, the end of this oration has always been rather anticlimactic because the dude just climbs back down afterwards. Show's over. And then out come the collection plates. But some PR-conscious shaman in Mexico decided to make the dismount as impactful as the sermon itself (plus any acrobatics mixed in with it like planking on the top of the pole), to increase the take of the collection plate. And thus the voladores came to be. The construction of the mechanism enabling this performance seems, at 1st glance by modern eyes, an astounding leap of technology and applied physics by Stone Age folks. But I believe there was an inspiration in everyday life back then, the bow drill. The mechanism is the same, it's just applied a bit differently. And the guys who still do this today say it's an ancient, pre-Christian ritual, such as seen here: ua-cam.com/video/zksguR4hLrY/v-deo.htmlsi=5fxkQ9whDnXUZN9t , so again, shamanic roots. Anyway, great video as always and thanks for cluing me into this fascinating culture.
What did you get your degree in? Are you Mexican (if you don't mind me asking)? This is very well researched and a beautiful thing to share with my Latinx community
I'm from Guadalajara. From elementary school, precolombine cultures like the mexicas and mayans overshadow the richness from the region in local history classes. Now that I teach history to architecture students, having this video available will reasure the importance of the region and its cultural value, as well as the imp'ortance of embracing such heritage in order to define identity which always is a problem when dealing with context and self assuring in the field of architecture. Thank you so much for your invaluable hardwork.
I knew it was a town before, but only today did I learn that town is named for a volcano. Originally the spirit was of course known as mezcal de Tequila.
ever since i subbed to you ive been WAITING for the west mexico content, you literally have no idea how much this means to me. i grew up in the region and i got to visit many sites around colima, jalisco and nayarit throughout my life. love this!!! thank you as always for the great videos!
Thank you! I'm so glad this meant a lot to you. I'd gotten a few requests for this over the years so I knew that there were a few people waiting for it.
Idk if you like video games but europa universalis 4 has some really cool mechanics attached to Mexico if you want to play as one of the tribes (and then take over the world :V)
My mom is from west Mexico and she has told me so much about ancient civilizations and beliefs! Thank you for this as it's not very often there's videos of western Mexico and it's peoples
My father is from colima and I've seen the shaft tombs, pyramids, and ball courts. I've also drank the pulque (somehow watery and thick). It was awesome to watch this episode and get further insight into the wonders of my ancestors. Thank you!!
Glad to see this come out and that Anthony Deluca (aka Tlatollotl and /u/Mictlantecuhtli, check out their posts on various sites for more on West Mexico and Mesoamerica in general!) was able to help! I don't have too much to add, hence suggesting you work with him instead of me for this video, but here's some quick thoughts: Firstly, the soldier ceramic figures: Something that's always stood out to me is how weird some of the armor and weapons look compared to what we see in other parts of Mesoamerica (except, perhaps, to the Gulf Coast: I have a *very* hard time telling apart Gulf Coast and West Mexican ceramic figures and both have some pretty weird weapons, but that could just be a lack of familiarity rather then a similar style?): At 29:30, you can see how the left figure has a very barrel shaped piece of armor on the chest, with a raised flared/lipped collar, while the figure on the right also has some sort of raised portion on the back This is... not really something you see elsewhere, with the possible exception of a specific Maya ceramic, K5451 (the helmet is even sorta similar!). The straps across the chest seem to tie the armor in place evoke the open-sewn variation of Ichahuipilli (cotton padded or stuffed gambeson vests and tunics), and indeed Dr. Marco Antonio Cervera Obregón, one of the leading researchers on Mesoamerican weaponry, seems to believe these are variations on Icahuipilli, with the Maya ceramic also striking me as being cloth. However, TheGhostHero, another hobbyist whose main interest is West Mexican soldier ceramics, believes that at least some of these had a solid construction. You didn't show any examples in the video, but some of the figures from West Mexico have even more extremely raised/flared back-portions, extending above the wearer's head (it reminds me of the "plate" armor Mississippian soldiers had), or even things like separate hip-armor plates(?). While it could just be a stylized exaggeration of what's seen in the video (indeed, the "barrel" shape on the left could also be an exaggeration of the right figure too, as I noted it's neckline is raised and transitions into the back"plate", tho K5451 is also in a more realistic style and has a uniform "barrel" lip, so it's probably actual variation) , it does make me wonder if the back portions are perhaps some sort of wood or bamboo plating (a few even have what seem like distinct plates on the front)? The entire "barrel" armor being wood or bamboo/wicker breastplates is also fun to imagine, though at this point I do lean on it/the front and sides being gambeson. Other things of note is the "bowler hat" looking helmets soldier tend to have, square or rectangular shields, what seem to be serrated knives or maybe serrated Macuahuitl like weapons, large two handed clubs (as seen in the video, note also one with spikes or studs!), slings, and what seem to be stone axes or clubs with a stone striking head. As a final note for soldiers and warfare, I would caution against too strongly focusing on ritual warfare and captive taking. Certainly West Mexico is not my area, but the consensus has certainly shifted to warfare among the Aztec being more pragmatic and tactical then once thought, with ritualism and captive taking being secondary to actual political and strategic aims in war. Speaking of ceramics and potential misinterpretations, I have seen some sources interpret the lower niches in some of the architectural ceramics as perhaps being a lower first story on a multistory structure... however, as you say in the video this being a underground niche or even a metaphorical lower underworld level seems to be the prevailing interpretation. Quite a few artists such as Angus Mcbride and Scott and Stuart Gentling use the distinctive "hooked" points on the straw roofs as inspiration for they how to draw roofs for lower status homes in Aztec sites, too! Regarding the Colima dogs, I'm going to borrow commentary from TheColimaDog / poethebadger 's excellent tq1wtter thread on the topic: She notes that, firstly, we only *think* the dog ceramics are from Colima: they, too, are a victim to heavy looting making provenance difficult. She also notes that they were likely burial goods, providing the deceased with a symbolic source of sustenance with their meat, and as in other world cultures, dogs were sometimes seen as guides to the afterlife in Mesoamerica: Look at Xolotl in Aztec mythology. The point being, dogs were not JUST a meat source, but were also companions and the like too. She thinks the breed the ceramics were modeled after was probably an ancestor to today's Xolo breed (While Treytheexplainer, who I am actually friends with and does run a great channel, has a really convincing video arguing that it, Chihuahuas, etc likely don't have any significant Precolumbian ancestry, apparently there is newer research establishing otherwise), as some of the ceramics actually do have incised lines, seemingly to indicate skin wrinkles with some of the dogs being hairless. The Andes actually has some very similar wrinkly dog ceramics which show up starting around 750AD, wheras prior to that time, there were only haired examples. At the same time, Metallurgy (of soft metals like gold, silver, and copper) shows up in Mesoamerica around 600-700AD, with West Mexico being one of the most major centers of this, and by some theories, by way of sea-traders from Ecuador. She theorizes that the same West Mexican-Ecuadorian trade/contact which might have brought metallurgy up to Mesoamerica may have brought hairless dogs down to Peru. As you note, the Andes also has stirrup ceramic vessels like West Mexico, though I'm not sure if the chronology lines up for that to be a part of this, since you brought them up with the Capacha and obviously they far pre-date the 600-800AD range in question here. I'm also not quite sure how accepted the Ecuador-West mexican contact theory is: I know many researchers do take it seriously, due to similarities in textiles, metalwork, ceramics, and linguistics, and that Spondylus is thought to be one of the major trading goods involved, but my impression is there's some skepticism. Speaking of trade with other parts of the Americas, the Mesoamericans probably weren't getting turquoise from the Southwestern US/Oasisamerica: While there was definitely direct trade between that region and Mesoamerica, recent studies have shown all or most turquoise in Mesoamerican art was sourced within the region, not from Oasisamerica. Regarding the bit about circular temples, while Cuicuilco's main temple does evoke the raised platforms at Los Guachimontones with a purely radial, concentric design (I might be overgeneralizing here, but that shape does seem more common in Western Mexico and the Northern edge of Mesoamerica, or more in the Preclassic/early Classic in Central Mexico), it is worth noting that we do see circular temples all the way into the Late Postclassic and Spanish contact in other parts of Mesoamerica, specifically in the context of temples to Wind gods, such as Ehecatl-Quetzalcoatl, though these aren't as purely circular. Lastly, while it is not quite within the same area (Los Guachimontones is riiiiiight at southwest corner of it), the Bajio region of Northwestern Mexico is actually the likely area that the Nahuas who later would found the city-states that gave rise to "Aztec" civilization and the "Aztec Empire" as we know it migrated from starting around 1200AD. People like to claim that they migrated all the way up from the Southwestern US, but the spread of Uto-Aztecan languages and Proto (or Proto-Proto) Nahuatl down to Northern Mexico had already taken place centuries or Millenia prior. There's actually some recent proposals by Magnus Pharo (as well as some older ones by other researchers, though those are mostly disputed by now) asserting that Nahuatl or Proto-Nahuatl spread into Central Mexico as early as the Classic period or even before, and of course there's the assertions that "The Toltecs" (If they existed... I still think the video we did on that deserves a second pass!) where Nahuatl speakers, but to be honest I don't fully understand Pharo's exact proposals, so I can't clarify on it here. We also do know a bit about the areas here as of the Late Postclassic period/Spanish contact, which I wish came up in the video, since i'm not sure it'll get it's own one down the line. As an example, in that same Bajio area, in Coyula, Tonalá, Guadalajara, the city or town of Tonala was a pretty large site (which, sadly, was bulldozed to make a garbage dump) of the Texcuexe culture, ruled via a queen. Reports from Guzman's expedition says that Tonala had around 6000 houses, and the queens daughter alongside other towns fought Guzman but were defeated. This conflict is actually depicted in the Lienzo de Tlaxcala where the Tonallan forces have some macuahuitl (including one with a pointed wood tip), ball-headed maces, elaborate back banners and breechlothes etc in addition to the bows and painted faces and pelt garments you expect from West/Northern Mexico. There's also some notable stuff with the the towns, states/kingdoms etc of Xalisco (not actually in Jalisco!) and Colima, but i'm running out of space and I'm honestly mostly going off of Deluca's own posts here!
Dude, I never get sick of reading your comments! This is all gold! Regarding the Colima dogs, I actually came across an example of a Colima dog pot in a museum that was shown to be reconstructed by a forger so I agree that several of these might be fakes. (They are very popular museum pieces so I can understand why people would fake them.) The point you made about the Andean connections is actually something we are going to come back to in the very next episode. (For anyone especially curious, I highly recommend reading Patricia Reiff Anawalt's work if you don't want to wait for the next episode.) What you wrote about the Bajio region is very interesting because I keep seeing that region pop up in the background of different literature I read and I feel like it doesn't get talked about very much for how much came out of there. I'm thrilled you called attention to it! Once again, thank you for pointing me to u/Mictlantecuhtli because he was a huge help in the research for this episode. I'm looking forward to the next episode you and I will be collaborating on!
@@AncientAmericas Excellent video and hello! I'm the Colima dog person Majora mentioned (btw thank you Majora for bringing me up!!) I wrote my MA thesis on Colima dogs + their possible connection to the Peruvian ceramic dogs we see popping up around the time of the Moche! Always happy to share any of my resources or bibliographies if you are ever looking for something- West Mexico is a tough area to research with just English sources and I've managed to hunt down some out of print texts about Colima ceramics that have been super helpful. Not sure how far you are into researching your next episode, but I highly recommend the volume "Waves of Influence" which is a collection of essays on that topic. On dogs- Alana Cordy Collins was the first scholar to propose dogs as evidence of Meso-Andean contact in the 1990's, but very few scholars engaged with that concept at the time. There's another paper called "De perros pelones, buzos y Spondylus . Una historia continental" which explores the same idea and is available online. Lastly, THANK YOU for citing your images and pieces from Museum collections when possible!!! A big problem I notice especially with Colima ceramics is folks using pics from auctions websites or modern replica vs pieces in collections that can be studied/viewed by the public. The dogs you used from LACMA and the Met were great choices to represent dogs in this video!
Layman here. You guys knowledge is astounding and clearly a labor of love if not lifelong study. On the matter of the dogs. The history of the “xolo-squiggly” pronounced cholo squiggly, a hairless, wrinkly dog, in or around Jalisco and I do not know the time frame, were used like a domesticated food source animal. I was fascinated by this when I first learned of their existence. Relationships with dogs(and cats)of various people’s around the world has always peaked my interest and the “xolo-squiggly” was no exception. In other country’s dogs are still meat sources, in some they are a travel means such as sled dogs, in others like in the now early modern Jalisco they are guards of the home(and sleep on the roof at night) and not man’s best friend but a helper. In my country dogs become something like member’s of the family and much resources are lavished on them and many people hold dogs in higher regard than human’s. I find this extreme (like most extreme’s) to be way off kilter and almost immoral, but that’s me.
Even nowadays there are lots of Facebook and Telegram groups of "treasure hunters" sacking and sharing the pics of their sackings. Mexican government does nothing.
You're doing some truly noble work in pointing out the holes in the research where someone's dissertation could go! So hard to find untrod ground sometimes, and so many weird little things that need investigating.
@@briseboy Ok dude. My comment was in english where 99.9% of the time "American" refers to people from the US. English and Spanish are not the same language.
You outdid yourself this time. So much of this was completely new to me, and what wasn't connected threads that I'd never considered before. This was a huge mental mind-blow, and masterfully presented!
I live in Guadalajara and every year I try to visit Huachimontones to make the walk and imagine how they lived up there with such a thriving lake and amazing house structures.
I love the amount of work you put into these videos and appreciate the education of these brilliant cultures so many people overlook. This channel is one of my favs!
@@AncientAmericas no thank you! I dreamed of digging up history as a kid thinking I’d be a paleontologist someday, now I live vicariously through this fascinating channel you have made. BRAVO!!!
I, like many others, have been waiting for this episode. My family come from Colima I mean deep in the heart. I have seen lectures on the ceramics and round pyramids and I have always wanted to prove West Mexican culture was highly influential over the area of the Aztecs. I need More research.
One of the best channels when it comes to pre-Columbian America --- Graham Hancock sparked my interest but you actually provide facts and excellent information!
I enjoy the through, honest and to-the-point information presented here. Thank you! This is type of history/archaeology/anthropology channel that I find educational.
I noticed you mentioned that teotihuacans influence wasn’t noticed as much in west Mexico, cause there’s been some newish excavations around a classical site in the Jalisco highlands called at teocaltitan, and it’s believed to be a ceremonial complex that also served as a trading post between Teotihuacán and the rest of west Mexico, and it has a lot of Teotihuacán influence to it, im not sure if all of my info is up to date since it’s a relatively newish site, or if you already knew about it, but apart from that it was a great video and loved to see some of the cultures I learned from school in a bigger spotlight, love your channel!
Thank you! First, I never knew about this site but after looking it up online, it appears that it was built just after the Teuchitlan culture disappeared. It certainly looks like it has central mexican influence but without digging into some literature about it, I can say for sure.
@@AncientAmericasYou’re welcome! As I said I’m not the most knowledgeable about it, most of my info was from trips to the site in school and talking to the archeologist there a long time ago, so hope you can find more literature and maybe it will end up in a future vid!
Thank you very much for making this informative video about West méxico. Im currently studying anthropology in the UdeG (Universidad de Guadalajara) and studying all these things I have realized the low attention that the INAH and the secretary of culture give to the study of this awesome region that is waiting to be expored and studied, West region have such amount of secrets and stories that need to be told,
Thankyou so much for what you do, I feel that native american history can be oversimplified and underepresented in media and in the general culture, So I'm very happy, and thankful, that you make this content, most people go with quantity over quality nowdays, and Im happy your still going with quality over quantity, I always love to share the stuff you make and tell people about this chanel cause It deserved it
This is fire, thank you 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 Humble request but pre Colombian Ecuador and Colombia is my favourites, any content on that would make me smile enormously, loved the muisca episode
Thanks for doing this video ❤ I’m from Guadalajara, only one of my great-great-grandparents was actually an indigenous person from this culture and I always wanted to know what his culture was like.
My family is from all this area around the Tequila's volcano. We own a land at the Huitzilapa archeological area and it is full of stone remains and pieces of pottery.
Thank you for making a video for the west side of mexico 👏🙏 i hope to learn more about the history and settlement of it one day and sadly one of my great uncles from jalisco were one of those looters looking to find artifacts to sell for a big buck and apparently he found a few old naked clay figurines buried in the soil dont know who he sold them to but i believe i found it online after deep digging on some old research paper that had to do with the tuxcacuesco area so im glad it got into the right hands .
I recall asking you about covering this topic as well and I'm glad you did! Especially since I have some ancestry in that area. Nice to see West Mexico getting the spotlight, thank you.
Wonderful video of american history that I didn't even know I was interested in, thanks. But I have always wondered about the hemispheres West coast in general. 👍. History, gotta luv it .
Just came back from south Guanajuato visiting family, nice to see a video about the nearby ancient culture. Around the mountain ranches there were a couple ancient Indian ruins and colonial aqueducts that run empty
From Colima here and I gotta say I definitely inherited the Western Mexico facial features lol 😫😂 especially the ears and eyes from the figurines👂 👀 Great Video 💯… “Next video on Colliman empire - The Tecos”
We owned a house on the beach in PM in the 80s before it was discovered by Canadian tourists. Beautiful warm water and country and think of it often. I have instructions to go back there and toss my Mom's ashes in the ocean one day.
I loved this episode for its art and appreciation of Jalisco-Nayarit culture. It may not be as well-known as other contemporaries but it's very distint. I love the dioramas and expressive figures. I didn't know there were circular pyramids and raised bed agriculture sites to see next visit but your channel is a bounty of useful revelations. Thank you
Thank you for another interesting video! I quite enjoyed the little story at the end about the three sisters. It was beautiful. God be with you out there, everybody. ✝️ :)
My family has been in that region for nearly 500 years. Teuchitlan is 15min away from my parents hometown, so is Tequila, Ameca, and so on. I have a very diverse genetic background including Hernan Cortes and the Borgia family but my West Mexican half is often overlooked. Thanks for making this video.
13:03 "Don't get too attached to the puppies because I'm going to ruin them later" Me, being Mexican and with full context of the cute fat puppies: Ah yes, of course, non-mexicans don't usually know that fact
My parents are from nayarit and i have always had an interest in mesoamerican history so this video was amazing. Also, the figures found at ixtlan de rio was something i never knew about despite researching that town and the area around it. I've always wondered west mexico since as you said yourself, information is limited.
9:05 fairly positive the main reason is the weather conditions during that part of the year, like you point out. growing up there, the rainy months are WET and it's not uncommon to get anywhere from 1 to like 5 or 6 tropical storms during the year. soil becomes waterlogged and digging is next to impossible without modern machinery/equipment, as well as incredibly dangerous.
Thank you so much! I've been past Teuchitlán and Guachimontes many times and I've really wanted to learn more! Could you cover the Wixarika (Huichol) culture? Their art and religious rituals are really amazing, and it's an indigenous culture, language and tradition that still lives on today in Nayarit.
@@AncientAmericas I'm sure it's long! If you ever want to visit Nayarit, let me know! I can connect you with tours of indigenous towns' festivals and more! I love your videos, don't stop!
I love the three sister metaphor at the end. I'm sure that there have been many cultures that have been overlooked, either though a lack of interpretation, a lack of digging, or a lack of material evidence
Registration is now open for next year's Oaxaca, Mexico trip! Join us for a week of exploring ancient and modern Zapotec culture together! Link: trovatrip.com/trip/north-america/mexico/mexico-with-ancient-americas-jan-2025
Please let me know if you have any questions!
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A topic nobody seems willing to mention is celebrated paleontologist Tim Rowe's New Mexico mammoth site, published in 2023 and securely dated to 37kya, lacking stone tools but rife with bone tools. People have been obliged to _mention_ Cerutti, even if they hasten to trot out caveats ("maybe it was construction equipment!") already settled in the original paper. But they seem even more terrified by Rowe's site. Why is American archaeology so uniquely afraid to upset the narrative? Who threatens?
Thanks for this video. I myself am a victim of the information shortage on western Mexico so had never heard of this culture, let alone knew anything about it. Thus, I found this video fascinating.
That said, I believe the diorama representations of guys on poles are BOTH shamanic and "voladoric", in that the latter apparently evolved from practices of the former. Basically, every religion since the original shamanism has the religious leader climbing something to commune with the gods and then deliver their message to the audience. Even Christianity, with the pulpits in churches and story of Jacob's Ladder in the Bible. BUT, the end of this oration has always been rather anticlimactic because the dude just climbs back down afterwards. Show's over. And then out come the collection plates.
But some PR-conscious shaman in Mexico decided to make the dismount as impactful as the sermon itself (plus any acrobatics mixed in with it like planking on the top of the pole), to increase the take of the collection plate. And thus the voladores came to be. The construction of the mechanism enabling this performance seems, at 1st glance by modern eyes, an astounding leap of technology and applied physics by Stone Age folks. But I believe there was an inspiration in everyday life back then, the bow drill. The mechanism is the same, it's just applied a bit differently. And the guys who still do this today say it's an ancient, pre-Christian ritual, such as seen here: ua-cam.com/video/zksguR4hLrY/v-deo.htmlsi=5fxkQ9whDnXUZN9t , so again, shamanic roots.
Anyway, great video as always and thanks for cluing me into this fascinating culture.
I'm from Michocan.
What did you get your degree in? Are you Mexican (if you don't mind me asking)? This is very well researched and a beautiful thing to share with my Latinx community
We are so back
Saw it upload and I was like yesssssss
first video ive seen of this channel, i thought you meant the Teuchitlan culture and was somewhat scarred
I'm from Guadalajara. From elementary school, precolombine cultures like the mexicas and mayans overshadow the richness from the region in local history classes. Now that I teach history to architecture students, having this video available will reasure the importance of the region and its cultural value, as well as the imp'ortance of embracing such heritage in order to define identity which always is a problem when dealing with context and self assuring in the field of architecture. Thank you so much for your invaluable hardwork.
I have never known tapatios to not think they and their region (and Chivas) are very important.
Right!!! It's a pretty good overview. I also teach, but I teach Art History.
Yeah one of the few people I have seen who knows what MEXICA is.
I was today years old when I learned that Tequila is named after a mountain.
I was yesterday years old!
El Tajin came first as well!
I knew it was a town before, but only today did I learn that town is named for a volcano. Originally the spirit was of course known as mezcal de Tequila.
It's a volcano. I live near it
@@Chendoart Active?
SHAFT TOMB GANG RISE UPPP🔝🔝🔝
Shouldnt it be dig down?
@@hannahbrown2728 we are rising thru the shaft 🔝🔝🔝🔝🔝
Ancient dioramas have to be my favorite artwork, I love how they just depict how they saw there life.
I love those dioramas. It's rare that you get such detailed depictions of events in sculpture and they are awesome.
ever since i subbed to you ive been WAITING for the west mexico content, you literally have no idea how much this means to me. i grew up in the region and i got to visit many sites around colima, jalisco and nayarit throughout my life. love this!!! thank you as always for the great videos!
i let out a SCREAM when i saw the notification and the title of the video lol
bro this video made my year
Thank you! I'm so glad this meant a lot to you. I'd gotten a few requests for this over the years so I knew that there were a few people waiting for it.
Idk if you like video games but europa universalis 4 has some really cool mechanics attached to Mexico if you want to play as one of the tribes (and then take over the world :V)
❤ cool, de que parte de la zona eres ?
One of the best channels on youtube right here.
Thank you!
My mom is from west Mexico and she has told me so much about ancient civilizations and beliefs! Thank you for this as it's not very often there's videos of western Mexico and it's peoples
Can you by any chance help me out learn about my ancestors
@convelwolf9544 I'm willing to help. I study this area and am both an art historian and artist. My ancestry is also from this community.
OMG I was just thinking everyday since June 7, 2024, "I wonder when is the next Ancient Americas video"... What a synchronicity 👀❤
Signed, sealed, delivered!
My father is from colima and I've seen the shaft tombs, pyramids, and ball courts. I've also drank the pulque (somehow watery and thick). It was awesome to watch this episode and get further insight into the wonders of my ancestors. Thank you!!
dude I can't overstate how great these videos are. they're the college lectures I wish I had gotten. keep it up!!
Thank you!
Glad to see this come out and that Anthony Deluca (aka Tlatollotl and /u/Mictlantecuhtli, check out their posts on various sites for more on West Mexico and Mesoamerica in general!) was able to help! I don't have too much to add, hence suggesting you work with him instead of me for this video, but here's some quick thoughts: Firstly, the soldier ceramic figures: Something that's always stood out to me is how weird some of the armor and weapons look compared to what we see in other parts of Mesoamerica (except, perhaps, to the Gulf Coast: I have a *very* hard time telling apart Gulf Coast and West Mexican ceramic figures and both have some pretty weird weapons, but that could just be a lack of familiarity rather then a similar style?): At 29:30, you can see how the left figure has a very barrel shaped piece of armor on the chest, with a raised flared/lipped collar, while the figure on the right also has some sort of raised portion on the back
This is... not really something you see elsewhere, with the possible exception of a specific Maya ceramic, K5451 (the helmet is even sorta similar!). The straps across the chest seem to tie the armor in place evoke the open-sewn variation of Ichahuipilli (cotton padded or stuffed gambeson vests and tunics), and indeed Dr. Marco Antonio Cervera Obregón, one of the leading researchers on Mesoamerican weaponry, seems to believe these are variations on Icahuipilli, with the Maya ceramic also striking me as being cloth. However, TheGhostHero, another hobbyist whose main interest is West Mexican soldier ceramics, believes that at least some of these had a solid construction.
You didn't show any examples in the video, but some of the figures from West Mexico have even more extremely raised/flared back-portions, extending above the wearer's head (it reminds me of the "plate" armor Mississippian soldiers had), or even things like separate hip-armor plates(?). While it could just be a stylized exaggeration of what's seen in the video (indeed, the "barrel" shape on the left could also be an exaggeration of the right figure too, as I noted it's neckline is raised and transitions into the back"plate", tho K5451 is also in a more realistic style and has a uniform "barrel" lip, so it's probably actual variation) , it does make me wonder if the back portions are perhaps some sort of wood or bamboo plating (a few even have what seem like distinct plates on the front)? The entire "barrel" armor being wood or bamboo/wicker breastplates is also fun to imagine, though at this point I do lean on it/the front and sides being gambeson.
Other things of note is the "bowler hat" looking helmets soldier tend to have, square or rectangular shields, what seem to be serrated knives or maybe serrated Macuahuitl like weapons, large two handed clubs (as seen in the video, note also one with spikes or studs!), slings, and what seem to be stone axes or clubs with a stone striking head. As a final note for soldiers and warfare, I would caution against too strongly focusing on ritual warfare and captive taking. Certainly West Mexico is not my area, but the consensus has certainly shifted to warfare among the Aztec being more pragmatic and tactical then once thought, with ritualism and captive taking being secondary to actual political and strategic aims in war.
Speaking of ceramics and potential misinterpretations, I have seen some sources interpret the lower niches in some of the architectural ceramics as perhaps being a lower first story on a multistory structure... however, as you say in the video this being a underground niche or even a metaphorical lower underworld level seems to be the prevailing interpretation. Quite a few artists such as Angus Mcbride and Scott and Stuart Gentling use the distinctive "hooked" points on the straw roofs as inspiration for they how to draw roofs for lower status homes in Aztec sites, too!
Regarding the Colima dogs, I'm going to borrow commentary from TheColimaDog / poethebadger 's excellent tq1wtter thread on the topic: She notes that, firstly, we only *think* the dog ceramics are from Colima: they, too, are a victim to heavy looting making provenance difficult. She also notes that they were likely burial goods, providing the deceased with a symbolic source of sustenance with their meat, and as in other world cultures, dogs were sometimes seen as guides to the afterlife in Mesoamerica: Look at Xolotl in Aztec mythology. The point being, dogs were not JUST a meat source, but were also companions and the like too. She thinks the breed the ceramics were modeled after was probably an ancestor to today's Xolo breed (While Treytheexplainer, who I am actually friends with and does run a great channel, has a really convincing video arguing that it, Chihuahuas, etc likely don't have any significant Precolumbian ancestry, apparently there is newer research establishing otherwise), as some of the ceramics actually do have incised lines, seemingly to indicate skin wrinkles with some of the dogs being hairless.
The Andes actually has some very similar wrinkly dog ceramics which show up starting around 750AD, wheras prior to that time, there were only haired examples. At the same time, Metallurgy (of soft metals like gold, silver, and copper) shows up in Mesoamerica around 600-700AD, with West Mexico being one of the most major centers of this, and by some theories, by way of sea-traders from Ecuador. She theorizes that the same West Mexican-Ecuadorian trade/contact which might have brought metallurgy up to Mesoamerica may have brought hairless dogs down to Peru. As you note, the Andes also has stirrup ceramic vessels like West Mexico, though I'm not sure if the chronology lines up for that to be a part of this, since you brought them up with the Capacha and obviously they far pre-date the 600-800AD range in question here. I'm also not quite sure how accepted the Ecuador-West mexican contact theory is: I know many researchers do take it seriously, due to similarities in textiles, metalwork, ceramics, and linguistics, and that Spondylus is thought to be one of the major trading goods involved, but my impression is there's some skepticism. Speaking of trade with other parts of the Americas, the Mesoamericans probably weren't getting turquoise from the Southwestern US/Oasisamerica: While there was definitely direct trade between that region and Mesoamerica, recent studies have shown all or most turquoise in Mesoamerican art was sourced within the region, not from Oasisamerica.
Regarding the bit about circular temples, while Cuicuilco's main temple does evoke the raised platforms at Los Guachimontones with a purely radial, concentric design (I might be overgeneralizing here, but that shape does seem more common in Western Mexico and the Northern edge of Mesoamerica, or more in the Preclassic/early Classic in Central Mexico), it is worth noting that we do see circular temples all the way into the Late Postclassic and Spanish contact in other parts of Mesoamerica, specifically in the context of temples to Wind gods, such as Ehecatl-Quetzalcoatl, though these aren't as purely circular.
Lastly, while it is not quite within the same area (Los Guachimontones is riiiiiight at southwest corner of it), the Bajio region of Northwestern Mexico is actually the likely area that the Nahuas who later would found the city-states that gave rise to "Aztec" civilization and the "Aztec Empire" as we know it migrated from starting around 1200AD. People like to claim that they migrated all the way up from the Southwestern US, but the spread of Uto-Aztecan languages and Proto (or Proto-Proto) Nahuatl down to Northern Mexico had already taken place centuries or Millenia prior. There's actually some recent proposals by Magnus Pharo (as well as some older ones by other researchers, though those are mostly disputed by now) asserting that Nahuatl or Proto-Nahuatl spread into Central Mexico as early as the Classic period or even before, and of course there's the assertions that "The Toltecs" (If they existed... I still think the video we did on that deserves a second pass!) where Nahuatl speakers, but to be honest I don't fully understand Pharo's exact proposals, so I can't clarify on it here.
We also do know a bit about the areas here as of the Late Postclassic period/Spanish contact, which I wish came up in the video, since i'm not sure it'll get it's own one down the line. As an example, in that same Bajio area, in Coyula, Tonalá, Guadalajara, the city or town of Tonala was a pretty large site (which, sadly, was bulldozed to make a garbage dump) of the Texcuexe culture, ruled via a queen. Reports from Guzman's expedition says that Tonala had around 6000 houses, and the queens daughter alongside other towns fought Guzman but were defeated. This conflict is actually depicted in the Lienzo de Tlaxcala where the Tonallan forces have some macuahuitl (including one with a pointed wood tip), ball-headed maces, elaborate back banners and breechlothes etc in addition to the bows and painted faces and pelt garments you expect from West/Northern Mexico. There's also some notable stuff with the the towns, states/kingdoms etc of Xalisco (not actually in Jalisco!) and Colima, but i'm running out of space and I'm honestly mostly going off of Deluca's own posts here!
Dude, I never get sick of reading your comments! This is all gold! Regarding the Colima dogs, I actually came across an example of a Colima dog pot in a museum that was shown to be reconstructed by a forger so I agree that several of these might be fakes. (They are very popular museum pieces so I can understand why people would fake them.) The point you made about the Andean connections is actually something we are going to come back to in the very next episode. (For anyone especially curious, I highly recommend reading Patricia Reiff Anawalt's work if you don't want to wait for the next episode.) What you wrote about the Bajio region is very interesting because I keep seeing that region pop up in the background of different literature I read and I feel like it doesn't get talked about very much for how much came out of there. I'm thrilled you called attention to it! Once again, thank you for pointing me to u/Mictlantecuhtli because he was a huge help in the research for this episode. I'm looking forward to the next episode you and I will be collaborating on!
@@AncientAmericas Excellent video and hello! I'm the Colima dog person Majora mentioned (btw thank you Majora for bringing me up!!) I wrote my MA thesis on Colima dogs + their possible connection to the Peruvian ceramic dogs we see popping up around the time of the Moche! Always happy to share any of my resources or bibliographies if you are ever looking for something- West Mexico is a tough area to research with just English sources and I've managed to hunt down some out of print texts about Colima ceramics that have been super helpful.
Not sure how far you are into researching your next episode, but I highly recommend the volume "Waves of Influence" which is a collection of essays on that topic. On dogs- Alana Cordy Collins was the first scholar to propose dogs as evidence of Meso-Andean contact in the 1990's, but very few scholars engaged with that concept at the time. There's another paper called "De perros pelones, buzos y Spondylus . Una historia continental" which explores the same idea and is available online.
Lastly, THANK YOU for citing your images and pieces from Museum collections when possible!!! A big problem I notice especially with Colima ceramics is folks using pics from auctions websites or modern replica vs pieces in collections that can be studied/viewed by the public. The dogs you used from LACMA and the Met were great choices to represent dogs in this video!
Layman here. You guys knowledge is astounding and clearly a labor of love if not lifelong study. On the matter of the dogs. The history of the “xolo-squiggly” pronounced cholo squiggly, a hairless, wrinkly dog, in or around Jalisco and I do not know the time frame, were used like a domesticated food source animal. I was fascinated by this when I first learned of their existence. Relationships with dogs(and cats)of various people’s around the world has always peaked my interest and the “xolo-squiggly” was no exception. In other country’s dogs are still meat sources, in some they are a travel means such as sled dogs, in others like in the now early modern Jalisco they are guards of the home(and sleep on the roof at night) and not man’s best friend but a helper. In my country dogs become something like member’s of the family and much resources are lavished on them and many people hold dogs in higher regard than human’s. I find this extreme (like most extreme’s) to be way off kilter and almost immoral, but that’s me.
My ancestry part (Jalisco). Sadly, I saw a lot of people digging them up as a kid and not getting experts involved.
Even nowadays there are lots of Facebook and Telegram groups of "treasure hunters" sacking and sharing the pics of their sackings. Mexican government does nothing.
It's a sadly common practice.
It's crazy how common this is. I have stories in my family of finding ceramics or passing down grindstones
@AsrielKekker the family metate, has been in the family since great great-grandmother.
The viejos here in Nayarit say that Chacala was the largest port in mexico before the volcanos erupted and destroyed everything.
This is honestly my favorite UA-cam channel...✌❤
Thank you!
It's always a better day when a new Ancient Americas video comes out. It was great to see a lesser known region covered.
Thank you for your effort on educating people on the civilizations in the Americas.
You're doing some truly noble work in pointing out the holes in the research where someone's dissertation could go! So hard to find untrod ground sometimes, and so many weird little things that need investigating.
Thank you!
new ancient Americas video dropped. Time to sit, listen and learn 💯
Any non Mexicans or Americans who find this super interesting? Nope just me? (I'm latvian)
Most citizens of the Americas, from Tiera del Fuego to Arctic, take EXCEPTION to your misuse of "american" to refer solely to USA citizens.
@@briseboy Ok dude. My comment was in english where 99.9% of the time "American" refers to people from the US.
English and Spanish are not the same language.
Im from mars and find this very interesting.
my family is from west mexico and i’ve loved your channel for years. thank you so much!
Thank you!
Feel like Christmas every time Ancient Americas uploads a new video
Christmas + birthday.
I wish more people used your video format and narration methods. Thank you for uploading this, you are one of the greats in my humble opinion
Thank you!
Coming home from a hard day of work and seeing Ancient America has uploaded a video is always amazing. thanks for the content!
The fact that there is a mountain in Mexico that is the source of all tequila is underrepresented on liquor bottles
Volcán de Tequila would be a pretty sweet name for a Tequila brand.
Damn I was just about to go to bed I have no choice but to stay up now
You outdid yourself this time. So much of this was completely new to me, and what wasn't connected threads that I'd never considered before. This was a huge mental mind-blow, and masterfully presented!
Thank you!
I live in Guadalajara and every year I try to visit Huachimontones to make the walk and imagine how they lived up there with such a thriving lake and amazing house structures.
Yeah, NEW Ancient Americas!! ❤🎉😊
I love the amount of work you put into these videos and appreciate the education of these brilliant cultures so many people overlook. This channel is one of my favs!
Thank you!
@@AncientAmericas no thank you! I dreamed of digging up history as a kid thinking I’d be a paleontologist someday, now I live vicariously through this fascinating channel you have made. BRAVO!!!
great video as always!! and fun announcement too! i vote San Agustín, Colombia in January 2026-count me in for that one!
Thank you!
literally better than many Indigenous Studies Classes hands down 💯
I'd love to chime in but I never took an Indigenous Studies Class so I can't compare them.
Man I’ve been waiting for one of these
Was waiting for this, thx boss.
Loved episode! Have a great trip next Year.👍❤️
Thank you!
@@AncientAmericas No, thank you wish I could support your channel more than just likes and comments but ,ya know, BILLS.
Thanks for the awesome vids!
I, like many others, have been waiting for this episode. My family come from Colima I mean deep in the heart. I have seen lectures on the ceramics and round pyramids and I have always wanted to prove West Mexican culture was highly influential over the area of the Aztecs. I need More research.
Oaxaca is eye-opening.
I'm sure that anyone who goes with will have a wonderful time!
One of the best channels when it comes to pre-Columbian America --- Graham Hancock sparked my interest but you actually provide facts and excellent information!
Thank you!
Another fascinating video, thank you.
Thank you!
my dad would always say "Papantla, tus hijos vulenan!" in reference to the palo voladores of Papantla. Seeing them referenced made me pog
Screaming and howling! So excited to see a new video!
Just don't wake up the neighbors.
Yassss love your videos!!!
Thank you!
I enjoy the through, honest and to-the-point information presented here. Thank you! This is type of history/archaeology/anthropology channel that I find educational.
I noticed you mentioned that teotihuacans influence wasn’t noticed as much in west Mexico, cause there’s been some newish excavations around a classical site in the Jalisco highlands called at teocaltitan, and it’s believed to be a ceremonial complex that also served as a trading post between Teotihuacán and the rest of west Mexico, and it has a lot of Teotihuacán influence to it, im not sure if all of my info is up to date since it’s a relatively newish site, or if you already knew about it, but apart from that it was a great video and loved to see some of the cultures I learned from school in a bigger spotlight, love your channel!
Thank you! First, I never knew about this site but after looking it up online, it appears that it was built just after the Teuchitlan culture disappeared. It certainly looks like it has central mexican influence but without digging into some literature about it, I can say for sure.
@@AncientAmericasYou’re welcome! As I said I’m not the most knowledgeable about it, most of my info was from trips to the site in school and talking to the archeologist there a long time ago, so hope you can find more literature and maybe it will end up in a future vid!
saludos desde Mèxico
Fascinating episode as always!
Thank you!
I've really missed your videos AA, glad to have you back!
Thank you! Happy to be back!
Outstanding work!
Thank you!
These videos make me a better person. And that's on you sir!
Thank you!
Thank you very much for making this informative video about West méxico. Im currently studying anthropology in the UdeG (Universidad de Guadalajara) and studying all these things I have realized the low attention that the INAH and the secretary of culture give to the study of this awesome region that is waiting to be expored and studied, West region have such amount of secrets and stories that need to be told,
Scheduling trips to historic sites with your channel followers is really cool, I’m not gonna go but still. Respect ✊
I very much appreciate this work. Excellent
Thanks Sasquatch!
The goat has delivered!!
Those dioramas are so cool! And I'm excited to see your video about the Classic collapse.
Coming in 2025! (Hopefully!)
Awesome stuff would expect nothing less. One thing that really struck me in nearby southern Durango was the presence of temples to Ehecatl.
Thank you! Did not know about about Durango. I'll have to look that up!
Its a magnificent site located in a beautiful valley close to lagoons, the town of tequila and lots more! definitely worth the trek
Thankyou so much for what you do, I feel that native american history can be oversimplified and underepresented in media and in the general culture, So I'm very happy, and thankful, that you make this content, most people go with quantity over quality nowdays, and Im happy your still going with quality over quantity, I always love to share the stuff you make and tell people about this chanel cause It deserved it
Thank you!
Thank you. Those dioramas are amazing.
Welcome back!!!!
Good to be back!
Woohoo! New video!!
This is fire, thank you 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Humble request but pre Colombian Ecuador and Colombia is my favourites, any content on that would make me smile enormously, loved the muisca episode
Well a little good news for you, the next episode tangentially touches those areas.
Thanks for doing this video ❤
I’m from Guadalajara, only one of my great-great-grandparents was actually an indigenous person from this culture and I always wanted to know what his culture was like.
My family is from all this area around the Tequila's volcano. We own a land at the Huitzilapa archeological area and it is full of stone remains and pieces of pottery.
Thank you for making a video for the west side of mexico 👏🙏 i hope to learn more about the history and settlement of it one day and sadly one of my great uncles from jalisco were one of those looters looking to find artifacts to sell for a big buck and apparently he found a few old naked clay figurines buried in the soil dont know who he sold them to but i believe i found it online after deep digging on some old research paper that had to do with the tuxcacuesco area so im glad it got into the right hands .
I recall asking you about covering this topic as well and I'm glad you did! Especially since I have some ancestry in that area. Nice to see West Mexico getting the spotlight, thank you.
Wonderful video of american history that I didn't even know I was interested in, thanks. But I have always wondered about the hemispheres West coast in general. 👍. History, gotta luv it .
Thank you!
Yay! New episode. 😊
"Let's go to Mexico." It sounds fun! 😊
I read somewhere that Ucareo and Zinapecuaro region obsidian has been found in Maya sites. I'd have to look it up.
Ooo! Thank you! I'll have to look that up.
I was rewatching your purepecha video from a while back when I got this notification. Glad that your revisiting this region of the world!
West Mexico needs love too!
hes back !!!
Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.
I lived in a farm 30 minutes from those circle monuments. You could find pottery, arrows and other cool stuff on the river banks.
Teuchitlan Culture im from Jalisco state !!!and never heard of it!! thanks for Sharing!!!
8:07 yeah that's a shaft tomb
From balls we came, and to balls we shall return.
So tequila, like most alcohols, is named for it's place of origin. Good to know.
Thank you👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
"Violence in the clay" would be a good name for a metal band.
This channel is awesome
Thank you!
Another excellent presentation!
Thank you!
This video deserves more attention!
This video captivated me so much I didn’t realize I was still on the porcelain work throne.
Alas, we all have to relinquish the throne...
The palo volador also it's prácticed in Chichicastenango AND Joyabaj, located in the Quiche departamento, Guatemala
Just came back from south Guanajuato visiting family, nice to see a video about the nearby ancient culture. Around the mountain ranches there were a couple ancient Indian ruins and colonial aqueducts that run empty
7:18 For these shaft tombs... perhaps you could've had arrows pointing to the shaft, labeled "shaft"?
From Colima here and I gotta say I definitely inherited the Western Mexico facial features lol 😫😂 especially the ears and eyes from the figurines👂 👀 Great Video 💯… “Next video on Colliman empire - The Tecos”
Colima is on my list but I have no idea when I'll get to it.
I just spent my vacations on Punta Mita Nayarit, amazing place, with a lot of culture, and activities
We owned a house on the beach in PM in the 80s before it was discovered by Canadian tourists.
Beautiful warm water and country and think of it often. I have instructions to go back there and toss my Mom's ashes in the ocean one day.
I loved this episode for its art and appreciation of Jalisco-Nayarit culture. It may not be as well-known as other contemporaries but it's very distint. I love the dioramas and expressive figures. I didn't know there were circular pyramids and raised bed agriculture sites to see next visit but your channel is a bounty of useful revelations. Thank you
Thank you!
Thank you for another interesting video! I quite enjoyed the little story at the end about the three sisters. It was beautiful.
God be with you out there, everybody. ✝️ :)
Once again, a great video, I feel like you did these cultures justice once again.
Thank you!
My family has been in that region for nearly 500 years. Teuchitlan is 15min away from my parents hometown, so is Tequila, Ameca, and so on. I have a very diverse genetic background including Hernan Cortes and the Borgia family but my West Mexican half is often overlooked. Thanks for making this video.
13:03 "Don't get too attached to the puppies because I'm going to ruin them later"
Me, being Mexican and with full context of the cute fat puppies: Ah yes, of course, non-mexicans don't usually know that fact
My parents are from nayarit and i have always had an interest in mesoamerican history so this video was amazing. Also, the figures found at ixtlan de rio was something i never knew about despite researching that town and the area around it. I've always wondered west mexico since as you said yourself, information is limited.
Beautiful pottery!
9:05 fairly positive the main reason is the weather conditions during that part of the year, like you point out. growing up there, the rainy months are WET and it's not uncommon to get anywhere from 1 to like 5 or 6 tropical storms during the year. soil becomes waterlogged and digging is next to impossible without modern machinery/equipment, as well as incredibly dangerous.
Good details there! I like hearing about the perspectives of locals.
Thank you so much! I've been past Teuchitlán and Guachimontes many times and I've really wanted to learn more! Could you cover the Wixarika (Huichol) culture? Their art and religious rituals are really amazing, and it's an indigenous culture, language and tradition that still lives on today in Nayarit.
The Huichol are on my list but I have no clue when I will get to them.
@@AncientAmericas I'm sure it's long! If you ever want to visit Nayarit, let me know! I can connect you with tours of indigenous towns' festivals and more! I love your videos, don't stop!
Great video
Thank you!
I love the three sister metaphor at the end. I'm sure that there have been many cultures that have been overlooked, either though a lack of interpretation, a lack of digging, or a lack of material evidence
I do too. The moment I read it, I knew it had to be in the video.
Half of my family came from Teochitlan to Guadalajara in the 50s, i have some granduncles who own a restaurant in the local lagoon
For work tomorrow thanks