This project took 2 years
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- Опубліковано 8 сер 2023
- Aboud Hijazi spent 2 years making these glue in bolts and we tested them to see if they were super good enough. They broke about double of their 25kn rating and the welds were bomber.
The Bolting Bible is free at www.hownot2.com/post/boltingb...
All the numbers from these tests are found at www.hownot2.com/post/bolting-...
Aboud's info:
Email hijazi000@gmail.com
Instagram / juniper_climbing
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Full credit to Aboud for creating something so solid.
The ammount of good you do to the climbing/slack line/ caving communities and other active individuals is way beyond super good enough 👍
That's a beefy bolt for just 25kn MBS, nice to see Aboud didn't take any shortcuts. He might be able to improve the design by taking the first few cuts along the shaft with a round insert so as to not introduce stress concentrations in shear. Nice work everyone!
The pull out king!
LOL
It would be interesting to hear more about the process he went through to get it certified.
I love how this channel gives so much respect and attention to small makers world wide doing good things. Thank you! The work you’re doing is God’s work. I first found your channel last week, and I can’t look away.
As a maker who does small production work, your channel is such a huge resource! Thank you!!!
great video! the amazing obsessives like Aboud are the bedrock of climbing and embodiment of a true creative spirit. great team up... when can we expect a Jordan climbing video?
Development is always hard. I'm sure your information will be invaluable for Jordan and the surrounding climbing community.
Aboud, respect for your ingenuity and perseverance! Keep making!
Super proud of this work by Aboud Hijazi! Thank you Ryan for featuring this. These bolts look damn impressive.
I've had the pleasure of putting up a few new routes in Wadi Rum Jordan back in the 80's (Lionheart, Warriors of the wasteland, Sandstorm and many others) wish I had those bolts for the abseil points back then. Awesome!
Switching over to a grooving tool with even a small corner radius would really help reduce that (very minor) issue with the bolt failing at the groove. Awesome work from both Hijazi and the HowNOT2 team.
My first thought as well, if that's a completely rectangular cutting tool with a sharp corner, that's a stress riser. Not sure where the sweet spot of less-stress-riser-but-not-too-little-epoxy-adhesion lies, though.
@@BoLanggaardLind , I think what matters for holding on to the epoxy is the outer edge of the groove, which should be less of an issue stress-wise, so grooving just the inner angle, while leaving the outer sharp, could be an effective compromise.
What an awesome video.
Inspiring the community with lots of Stoke!
Btw... loving the editing "swish" noises between screen scenes 🎉
Congratulations to everyone involved, the product turned out to be awesome!
Great Video! He's got my respect, he had an issue with obtaining bolt and he decided to make his own and made some bomber AF hardware in the process. Salute my friend! 👏👏👍👍
Excellent video! Thank you so much for all of this, the information is extremely valuable!
$10 for that seems like a great price
Well, that is a very cool video, and Ryan, exceptionally awesome of you to give a voice to this wonderful person.
This is amazing!! What an incredible way to collaborate across the world!
Great vid as always!
the grooves expand against the direction of the pulling force so the epoxy flies out. Abboud is the man.
He should use a radius tool shap to cut the grooves to get rid of that 90 degree corner and stress point
Same thought here. At a minimum the first few instances from the bolt eye.
If it’s good enough it’s good enough. Sometimes you can chase small gains with big money doing stuff like that. As long as he’s got lots of margin of safety which he does keeping it simple may be worth it.
Square grooves are better for adhesive channels. They're already breaking at ~150% of ultimate strength in shear. No matter how you design it it can be broken. As long as it's breaking well above rated strength, your design is valid.
@@Mind_Funeralwhat if you only round the inside corners in the grooves? I feel like it's mostly the outside corners that provide adhesion with the glue. You could potentially even take it a step further and make the grooves asymmetrical since the grooves and glue mostly need to resist the force in a single direction. (Although you would want some resistance in the other direction as well, unless you pre-load the bolt).
Also a question that comes to my mind: do sharp edges also compromise the hardened adhesives in a similar fashion as they do in metal? I assume the final hardness and elastic properties of the cured adhesive come into play here.
I'm not a trained engineer so I don't know and I'm genuinely curious. I have had a little training in material properties but nothing extensive.
Oh and you're correct that it's probably not necessary given the use case. But I do enjoy thinking of ways to make things better/stronger, potentially without much of an extra cost.
@@Ahapenootjes I'm not too sure about making the inside of the grooves radiused. You might be onto something. I don't think it would hurt the pull out strength. But to answer your question, yes, stress concentrations due to hard angles affect adhesive too, but as seen in the video, the adhesive is going to shear at the top of the grooves.
Edit: I am a trained engineer but I don't do much of the calculating or analysis anymore. I'd have to bust out the books 😅
Amazing work! Aboud made a very nice bolt! Definitely good enough
As a wannabe engineer and machinist those grooves definitely look live they could be done slightly differently to reduce stress concentrations while still giving a good expoxy key.
Wow! That’s really great 👍🏻
Great project!
You're awesome for giving this man a voice 👍 👌
This is awesome 🤘🏻
super impressive!!
Not a climber, not even interested in the sport, but this stuff is always neat. Seeing such an insane setup that could easily fire through all of your production crew and hit the next town in the name of encouraging safety is super impressive.
Thanks Ryan and thanks Aboud! Obviously those bolts are a damn fine product! Shame i dont really have a use for them in the trees... I'll come up with an unconventional use for them eventually...
@HowNOT2 I have a very useful, easy-to-tie knot I'd really like you to test. It's called the "alpine bunny knot", it's not very common, and it's used to tie on a swivel pulley mid-line (among other things). It seems like it would be as strong as an alpine butterfly if not stronger, but no one I know of has actually tested it. Thanks! - and I love your content!
This was super cool to see! Amazing quality, and clearly a project well executed. I'm no expert on this, but it seems to me that the bolt that failed "low" might have failed because it went from sustained load through a sudden, partial bend as the first inch or so of rock went out, with some relief in the force applied, and then returned to sustained load after this. The force graph bears this out, and while this doesn't contradict the grooves being a bit of a force riser, it also shows that this might only be an issue if the bolt is for some reason protruding so much that the grooves are at or near the rock surface. Clearly they held well when buried as they should be.
Making dreams come true🎉
Now I really want to see the bolts that flew out, in tension, put back in and tested a second time!!! 😁😁😁
It looks like he could go for rounded grooves. The rounding will help spread stress over a large area. Even in the glue. The glue not making a sharp 90 degree should be stronger. Of course, it sounds like he has gotten them certified, so I'd probably keep it in compliance with those certifications rather then pay for a new certifications for new design.
Exactly: just radius the inside corner even a tiny bit so it won't form a stress riser there.
Sounds like rounding would increase complexity of manufacturing which was one of the main considerations he had to make so I’m sure he knows that but a good product design is a careful balance of efficiency, value, and quality
the entire fajigger of a glue-in chooches my stovepipe antler something fierce. i like the stainless bolt a lot but a pound-in torque-controlled wedge bolt is more traditional
Can you show us test on Aramid fiber ropes vs nylon/polyester ropes stand up to abrasion?
If he used a radius tool to do the notches it should be far stronger, sharp edges are failure points. Still looks bomber as it is 👍
They should try to roll thread their bolts. This would mitigate the stress concentration points of those grooves and also allow them to screw them into other hardware like drop in anchors.
How?
Hey! Have you done any videos on half/double ropes? We use them all the time for trad climbing in the uk, and ive always wondered how strong they are compared to single ropes
4:50 Yes, if the diameter changes abruptly like an edge than this edge is a stress riser and cracks do typically do start from there. If the inside edges are rounded off it helps the steel. If the outer edges are rounded off it helps the epoxy not to get cut.
If you use high-speed-steel on the lathe you can grind a tool that will cut a round shape and later you can put the part in some grinding tumbler , or something like that, to round off all the tiny nicks and everything. If you have ductile material and you have a nick and it gets under load than the nick will be stretched to some rounded off shape, which will be small but rounded. But this doesn't work all the time.
i have no plans on bolting routes, highlining and what they usually show on the channel, but somehow its still entertaining :D maybe its just my male monkey brain that likes to see stuff break, with some numbers attached to said broken stuff lol
Knowing alittle about machining if he made the grooves round bottom it would minimize stress cracks
I dont know if you've done any testing or looked into it. But what about bolts that have been in sunlight for a while would the thermal expansion and contraction from the suns heat change it and make bolts or the glue weaker over time?
Sharp edges on the inside of a groove reduce the strength of the material more than rounded ones. that's what we see at 4:35
i need 1 bolt like that😍
Does anyone know how the glue fails?
Does it fail like bolt threads, where even if you have 2 feet of threaded bolt, it will stretch the bolt and keep ripping the outside threads out one by one?
Or does the glue reach critical strength and let go all at once?
If someone was willing to donate money to any groups who organize bolting/re-bolting etc where would I find the details of where/who these groups are!?
Are there any crowdfunding efforts!?
I always wonder if you couldn´t improve adhesion to a bolt with some kind of surface treatment like sand blasting or etching, instead of just grinding or machining large grooves into it. If that were to work you´d have a higher possible MBS since you could maintain a constant diameter.
Sand blasting and/or just a a knurled or pressed in in groove pattern would be interesting and possibly less costly to make.
Even if you can do that does it relly matter? Is there a need for a bolt that can hold even more weight? This seems to work fine and it is likely quite a fast operation during manufacturing with just a lathe. In the tests I have seen it looks to me that for 10 mm bolt, it is the rock itself or the glue interface with the rock that is the limitation not the strength of the bolt. If the bolt snaps it is usually the eye that bends and snaps. The bolt that snapped in this video did that after the rock was crushed.
A simple improvement that others have mentioned is have not had a 90-degree corner in the cuts but rounding them off it a rounded and not a sure bit for the last or all of the cuts would help.
I think the grooves have an advantage. It should push around the glue more so you get it everywhere. If it just is a smoother rod the glue will flow out at a higher rate when you push the bold in and that feels like there would be a higher chance you end up with too little glue and you do not get a good glue joint.
If you need higher strength larger diameter and longer bolt is likely a simpler way to achieve it.
@@target844 i was just thinking pressing in grooves or sand blasting as cost reduction, those bolts are plenty strong. The grooves work fine as is. It’s not even worth it to round the corners given the strength already achieved. Round cornered grooving tools can make it hard to clear chips and the forces go up. Also stainless is awful to machine. But basically I was suggesting something not far off from rolled threads. It’s a faster operation that’s cheaper… but only if the tooling is available. Knurling is more accessible with similar benefits and worth considering if they even care to cost optimize it.
Sandblasting and all that is great for sticky adhesive glues but this is more of a hard glue that serves the purpose of filling voids to create a rigid body preventing movement within the interface between rock glue and bolt… adhesion is not a super important element in that context, it’s basically like joinery/puzzle pieces fitting together, a little bit of wobble or spin isn’t even a problem
@@ohokcool epoxy for structural applications is absolutely rated for bond strength to steel and surface prep is specified when it is important to get a bond. For normal bolts it’s not as critical because they are threaded.
Im a welder by trade, dont think there is much issue with stainless losing its corrosion resistance due to too much heat. You have to understand that tig weld gets a lot hotter than the torch youre using. Stainless steel is used in some applications for piping (depends on the type of product being run through the pipe) specifically for its ability to resist corrosion. And that piping has tens to hundreds of welded points in it. As long as the filler material is the same or another compatible stainless alloy, it will last quite a while, only needing replacing dude to material loss from erosion on the inside. Just my experience.
Maybe contamination from the oxy acetylene torch.
The takeaway from this? 10/10 would whip
2 years to test warm glue strength... Those Juniper bolts from Juniper Climbing are not breaking, period.
Does NBS stand for No Body Survives?
So where can I buy those bolts. I need about ~500 ;)
Fantastic!
If I see people welding bolts, I get nervous. You need really good process control and material to avoid the weld becoming a corrosion hotspot.
I'll still believe in a two piece bolt way more than a single point. The second part expands into the space and holds the first part in place. A good epoxy is a key part of either, but the two points of failure seems better to me. Having threads connected to the rock through mechanical means with epoxy.
I don't think any glues mechanical bolts. So it is one or the other. A single point of contact with the rock like the wedge of a mechanical bolt might not do well with crappy rock like in our mine or soft rock as that contact point can get worn down. The glue holds the entire thing with more surface area which isn't necessary if your rock is good. If you glue a mechanical bolt, the tolerance is so tight for the wedge to work that it either squeegy's all the glue out or the threads get gummed up and you can't tighten the wedge up correctly getting the worst of both, not the best.
QUESTION ? how does one choose between hooking into the anchors themselve or the chain link coming down from them? is it just a prefrence thing or a strategy thing?
i prefer clipping one ofthe bolts directly, more important is that the biner is not being stressed or side loaded by any of the hardware.
the bottom ring is for your rope, because it is free to rotate it won't wear in one spot like lowering on a bolt can do.
and if you ever do clip the chain clip through a link and not around the chain.
@@ztungaz ❤️ THANK YOU those were all great explainations and i love.
8:00 now dumb question of the day
Would you recycle the pulled in tension bolts to sea if they have weakened? "Micro fractures?
Steel doesn't microfracturer like aluminum but I wouldn't want to use something that has been that compromised. Plus they are bent. We made art out of them.
Hey sorry to ask here I don't have other social media besides this and Reddit. I remember I subscribed long ago and casually watch your videos as you're one of my favorite athletes from Pushing The Line... Sooo what's up with season 2?? I was really looking forward to seeing what you guys were doing next.. I think it was in a cold icy place? Idk I'm about to go find season one and rewatch but I was just watching old videos of Dean Potter slack lining and it reminded me of you guys but I can't find a release date, which is really bumming me out. I hope nothing bad happened and you're all well and staying safe!
Whoever bought Discovery channel recently canceled the entire show and deleted 1st season off TV. Very disappointing to work that hard on something for it to go poof! I'm glad I got my own channel here to keep doing the stuff I love. We recently did more stunts like you saw on the show but better at ua-cam.com/video/fpUye2OOT-4/v-deo.html
@@HowNOT2 oh my gosh that is really disappointing. However I'm not surprised, that's the luck I'm used to. Ugh and I'm sure there was some waiver you all signed agreeing not to film yourselves while they were filming for the show but I really wanted to see what you guys did in that cold place I think it was Colorado? How could they do this to me!! I loved that show and really hoped you and/or sketchy and the other kinda chill hippy guy maybe Andy (that's not right) or something idk it's been so long, would get a spin off of you guys doing other extreme stuff. I really loved how your personality is so different from the other guys but you still fit in so well and are arguably the life saver being so safety oriented and always aware of the whole project top to bottom. When you helped sketchy unload his vehicle and his gear had all those ants and he didn't care and you definitely did 😂 idk I just loved your guys dynamic! Plus the other folks, they were cool too. This is such terrible news I really would have waited forever for season 2 😭 well I guess it's safe to say I was the number one fan of that show, I did watch it at least 4 times all the way through, and am still thinking about it. Maybe I should call Discovery or whoever and complain everyday until they release it or send me the footage. Well thanks for replying, I really appreciate it and honestly I'm fan girling about it. Soo sad about the show, super excited to have kinda talked to one of my favorites from the show. I've never talked to anyone I've seen on TV!
A small radius in the grooves would greatly remove the stress point.
It seems like it would make manufacturing more complex which means each bolt takes longer and more money to make/buy, not sure if it’s worth it if we’re already hitting almost double the rated strength
@@ohokcool not really. The lathe tool just has to be modified it really isn’t a big deal to do.
Do you degrease the bolts before putting them in? That could help quite a bit with gluing.
The goal isn’t to glue the bolt to the rock, the goal is to fill the voids with a solid material that will effectively trap the bolt/rock rigidly
@@ohokcool Even then will better adhesion give a benefit though, one and the other aren't mutually exclusive.
Def could shave the size and weight!
Would concrete screws work in granite?
Probably. some route developers use the SS version for permanent placements. many use the zink plated versions for temporary bolts. in really hard granite it is possible to strip the bolt. some say soaking the hole helps. We use Simpson Strongtie Titen HD screws. i would be skeptical of other brands until testing is done. lots of resources and discussion reguarding those bolts for climbing on mountain project and youtube. -Bobby
Did you get access to a private mine to test bolts?
Steve knows all sorts of abandoned mines in Nevada. We picked one most out of the way not to bother people.
. . . moving blanket *Kinetic Recoil Arresting Device* . . .
So when is the Jordan video?