On How We Dehumanize
Вставка
- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Human beings have a deep capacity to dehumanize those that are strange to us. I explore the symbolism and consequences of this tendency.
For more on the subject:
- Pentecost for the Zombie Apocalypse - • Pentecost for the Zomb...
- Dog Headed Icon of ST-Christopher -
pt 1: www.orthodoxar...
pt 2: www.orthodoxar...
- The garments of skin: www.orthodoxar...
=============
Patreon: / pageauvideos
Website: www.pageaucarvi...
Facebook: / jonathanpageau
Twitter: / pageaucarvings
13:20 you know another thing to keep in mind is that the foreigners you meet are very often not only far from your own center but also from their own. For exmaple，the Chinese you usually meet are the ones who are the least “Chinese”. By that I mean a Chinese person who is deeply involved in their own traditions wouldn’t be likely to go to another country as that would take them away from the community they must be imbedded in in-order to learn their traditions… not only that but in history when traveling we would normally be most likely meet those on the physical edge of another territory first before we could approach the center of another civilization.
This has long been a criticism I've had of Progressive rhetoric. "It's 2017!!! We never/always do X!"
I've assigned a new term for this logical fallacy... argumentum ex calendario
Lucas Pattison, cool term, haha. I think it's actually a disguised ad hominem because it is implied that the holders of views opposing their own are old-fashioned and need to get with the times. As if any new argument is obviously better than an old one, an idea that is probably almost exactly wrong.
I think the term you are looking for is the fallacy called Chronological Snobbery, coined by Owen Barfield. It's basically that argument, it's a fallacy to say that such and such a thing is better because it's newer or in the now.
True. It also applies to the opposite, regressive rhetoric, presuming there is nothing but regress and perversity, and all one can do is submit to it.
As in, "It's 1984, baby" (said in 1984) or "It's Trump era, what do you expect."
Hans Christian Andersen has a story called "The Caloshes of Fortune." An excellent illustration.
So, in the most simplistic possible terms, dehumanization is projection our own inner chaos upon the other, however we might categorize them, be it time, geography, belief, etc. , while the antidote is to manifest order out of chaos in our own lives with the guiding light of the Logos.
An excellent way of putting it. One can see why in the Gospels there are such stern admonitions to avoid dehumanization of perceived 'others', to seek after the good of the 'other', and to be extremely cautious before even beginning to point out the evil of others. Still truly a radical doctrine.
This is probably my favorite video from you so far. I would love to see more videos articulating a symbolic view of a particular idea.
There's also the opposite tendency, to romanticize the stranger, which is also dehumanizing.
yes! or to romanticize the ancient
He mentioned that. The noble savage. The pygmies.
Yes. This has happened a lot with schizophrenia and has made the reality of an interplay between mind, spirituality and body are at play with it minimised and resulted in people being put on meds and left to rot.
This reminds me of a video I saw about the movie 300, history buffs are often annoyed about how the real life Persians where nothing like they where portrayed, but this video said it's not about that, it says the movie isn't really about history, it's about the story the Spartans tell themselves, and paint themselves as epic and their enemies as monstrous, it's a commentary on propaganda.
Have watched several times. There is a lot in here to digest. I like that some of what is discussed is applicable to my life. Like moving away from the center and into the peripherals. The further out you go the more chaos that is encountered. I'm a 27 year old male. At the age of 18- 23 I had an opportunity to stay in the center. By being apart of a team and attending college. But for whatever reason I chose to leave that center. to push my identity to the peripherals by seeking adventure. The type of adventure you'd find in an amusement park. I did this for years. I encountered a little more chaos. Even saw that it lived in me too. It was scary. But there were always people who radiated light and joy.. compassion.. and it means a lot to be one of those people. Having actions that produce order... what interests me the most is at the beginning of it all, I had a dream about being on a river in my canoe. A hippo tipped it over.. and I couldn't do anything about it. Then I woke up at the foot of my bed. A man threw a heavy blue ball at me. Knocking me awake.
Jonathan. Hope you're feeling better. Something about this video really helped me make connections. This dehumanization is such a problem today, and it's something that I've struggled with for sure. It's almost like when we catch ourselves in an ascendant mood, that's likely to be coupled with some form of dehumanization of another. As if, in order to ascend we have to push another down. There is true righteousness in Jesus's simultaneous acceptance of the descent and rising up. Because he found a way to bring those two things together within himself. And therefore, he doesn't have to submit the world to it. Thanks for the awesome video.
It is difficult work. It's almost like I need a mental shorthand to catch myself-some story or parable... I wonder where I could find that... (joking). I was raised to think about Jesus' story only from the ascendant perspective, but the story itself is dripping with descent. He cavorts with prostitutes, he comes like a beggar, bears his burden in public. It's almost like they couldn't have made it more obvious, yet somehow we find a way to miss it. It's such a difficult task that we are almost blind to it.
Great work by Jonathan. His thrust is very much complimented by Renne Gerard in his "Violence and the Sacred."
Excellent! It has clarified and connected many threads I have puzzled over: The Titans and Gods; the perpetual pendulum of human history, macrocosm and microcosm patterns as well as CS Lewis' comment about chronological snobbery. You articulate the connections well. Thank you for helping us see the patterns from within and without. Keep up this essential work.
Another very interesting video. I really like how you view current events through the lens of history and symbolism. This is much more enlightening than endless debates where each party asserts that they are right. You have been very productive lately, but you look a little tired here. Take care of yourself & thanks for posting this video.
hey Jonathan, I'm so glad you're doing this ... found you through Dr. Peterson ... I find it easier to follow you if you are in a conversation with someone else who can understand and question or challenge your view points ... BTW. have you heard of Theology of the Body by John Paul II (symbolism of human body)? ... he's the only other one I know (and Peterson) who goes into such depth of existential understanding of Genesis ... hope you get better soon
One of your best videos man. Jut jam packed and all moving in a focused arc. Thanks. PBWY.
your videos are always very insightful jonathan. thanks for the upload.
Thank you Jonathan. Request: could you recommended a good reading list for those who want to better understand symbols and think symbolically? 3-5 titles would be helpful.
Michael Schuller I would like it too
I appreciate and respect that careful reply. This isn't a light subject but it seems crucially important. I'm willing to do the work and take the time to understand.
Book of symbols- Taschen
Thanks all! Looks like ill be busy in 2018 with this list.
It's been four years since you wrote this comment, have you progressed in your thinking on symbolism so far? Just interested
Thank you Jonathan! So simple, so real, so true! I have been waiting a long time to find someone who speaks with such clarity and passion. I will continue to support what you are doing. Jim
I appetcexiate your stories and thoughts here in mythology, story and art. Adressing the fallen nature of humans as the cause of dehumanization of others in true biblical terms is simply sin. Rejection of God and self-seeking souls with out a renewed spirit becomes chaotic and ugly. Renewal of the spirit comes only by redemption by Christ for humans to be accepted into the kingdom of God. For mankind to regain their proper place in life, sin must be confessed, a life turnaround to become a new creation. Dr. Francis Schaeffer wrote a book called "True Spirituality" that tells about the sanctification process. Without man returning to his Creator he is doomed to the fallen nature of sin and control by Lucifer. The Bible is not merely a story to some, it is a gift of reason and guidebook to the very thoughts, mind and love from God. It is He who seeks a heart that is turned towards Him/Christ so that he may knock, have the door opened and sup with the sinner.
hey that bible book sounds nice i might read it one day
Romanian Orthodox here, lloooooove Jonathan's channel new subscriber here and i have been binge watching. So fascinating subjects and so nice personality! 🙏 Thank you!
To add to my comment...Jonathan...( I am a catechumen)...I was always the " foreigner"...not by choice...it was always very painful...especially when I was labeled as " rebellious "...or choosing to be different kind of thing....so...this is an absolutely beautiful message to me and for me
I don't know if any anime person noticed, but he basically just explained Attack on Titan
your comment is underrated fine sir
I believe the Bible was written before attack on titans..
@@bodhimarz7839 he's just saying that there are biblical themes within attack on Titan, not that it is somehow more original than the Bible 😊
I must watch Attack on Titan. I remember when it would come on I think Cartoon Network. I recently do not have satellite anymore, given the price and lack of it's former abundance.
I just realized all your comments are years old already. 😢
Much love from Oregon, Jonathan
Jonathan....so very awesome...I understood all that you expressed and I really liked how you poured it out...and...so carefully and thoughtfully.
Regarding eastern thought of the 60's....I am from that era...I did not worship idols or people or things...it seemed like a holiness of things were in the air...young men were trying to be holy and thoughtful...and live right...organic ...healthy home grown...home made everything....I thought natural medicine was normal...much was exposed...actually all the same stuff as presently in 2022.
So what was scary...and then beautiful as I came into Orthodoxy...was I all that I liked...holy speech( the monks and Saints)....incense...fasting( andon more than just food).. the chants or tones of the singing with the true message in the services...to name a few
It’s amazing to me how much this explains the state of modern reality, as we continue to fall further away from Eden with successive poor choices to this day, with each passing day being a parody or an ‘echo’ or ripple of the Fall.
Also crazy how it’s known as “the Fall” and Guénon describes the downward part of the vedantic cycle as being a “fall” whereby the “body” (us) increases in speed as it falls, with time all but becoming ‘one eternal moment’ at the end.
Wow! This is amazing content! Respect! Thank you 🙏🏽
13:06 When a problem comes along... you must whip it. Before the cream sits out too long... you must whip it. When somethings going wrong... you must whip it.
Wow, brilliant talk. What a perspective change! Thank you
A scary idea occurs to me from this:
As living memory becomes entirely contained within this age of hard national borders and biological fixations of identity, we are beginning to dehumanise even the actors of the world wars themselves both ways, Hitler is not Hitler, he is Satan incarnate, Churchill is not Churchill, he is the sword of god or what have you.
In a sense modern identity politics is a feeble attempt to escape the dark world or ‘centre’ this places us in.
People are coming up with ridiculous versions of ‘don’t take borders and ethnicity too seriously’ in chants like ‘no human is illegal’ or ‘there’s no such thing as race or gender’.
We are terrifying ourselves of the dog headed bigots of ‘distant’ 1950s, and inserting biblical level narratives (in degrees of magnitude only, not sophistication) into the increasingly recent past, to the point where the barbarians are at the gates and they want to rape all women and genocide all minorities, and oh god they might even be here with a already and at the seat of power!
Meanwhile if we just had a return to deeper appreciations for the universality of what it is to be human warts and all, these dead figures and forces would appear less mysterious and terrifying, and history might return to being viewed as *our* heritage, our collective centre, not alien but in fact a drawing out of the same human nature we all live with today.
Amazing talk! It makes so much sense to see it this way. Thank you!
“With the growing chaos around us”
Whew boy is this relevant today
2015? this was so yesterday and regressive. It is now 2017!!
Does this mean I should become a transsexual atheist clergyman?
On a serious note - could you explain more in depth about what the Christian solution to this is? Where are the boundaries between maintaining order and embracing chaos? Is it possible to embrace modern chaos without going into sin?
I know its not directed at me this question, but my 2 cents if anyone cares - Christian solution, I would say would be baptize all people into the life of Christ, that's our Job as Christians. That's what we are called to do, baptize the world.
Political solution, more difficult one to answer as everything is being pulled under everyone's feet, and people are loosing the sense of both History and Future, but definitely involves restoring some sort of borders. How about the Anarcho-Capitalistic/Libertarian Option? get rid or reduce the government to an insignificant entity and let people sort themselves out and recreate order organically on a local level.
People everywhere around the world are having a problem with Globalism, destruction of identity, competing moralities and mass immigration and oversized governments hostile to their interests, plus impacts of Post-Modernism and Post-Humanism, and the Internet on top of that.
We as Christians don't need to mix politics and religion, the 2 should be separate in my books.
More Practical Solution for us believers - Form communities virtual or real and try to weather this crises together as like minded believers in Jesus Christ etc
I also think we Christians need to start looking into creating our own Communities where we can live in an actual community as neighbors (not like the hippies communes but similar only capitalist in nature with private property), you know, live close to the people you Worship with every Sunday, send your children to a Christian school with neighbors children etc, have an actual organic community and a sense of local identity, and be rooted in a place so we have a sense of future also.
I think it will be perfectly sensible that we all meet on the Internet, choose a dying small town somewhere with cheap property prices in real life, and each individual buys his own house/land and we take the town over demographically, revitalize the town school and make it Christian and rebuild church and start our life there together as a community, we don't have to be closed off from the rest of the world we just need to be closer to each other, helping each other weather this crises which is just beginning.
Even those Christians who choose not to live in such a community but the chaotic cities can still have the benefit of traveling to those places for a holiday to come back to their senses and restore themselves etc.
Materialistically, all items are cheap and we could still have a good standard of living, we don't have to farm our own food etc like hippies, and in such a community the internet opens up plenty of opportunities for us if we use it wisely.
Internet itself can be our gateway into "chaos" for which we can enter if we choose on our own terms, however our everyday life will still be "orderly and safe" within our own little communal bubble.
Regarding Sin, Everyone has watched Porn on the internet, not everyone has actually fornicated in flesh, again the internet can be that platform of sin and chaos and order and virtue. While we can enter into chaos in our minds, we don't have to do the same in flesh or the real world. My kids will watch porn no doubt on the net as have I, problem is trying not to get consumed by such Sins, fighting the temptations within you will require Our Lords help during these times.
Problem I am sensing the most is that individuals are realizing that we cannot live alone as disfranchised individuals, both as individuals on the Web which is a Chaotic platform, and also Reality which is itself becoming Chaotic. The only order left for the individual is the family unit, and most families are becoming chaotic as well.
I also think these problems mostly effect city dwellers.
Majority of people especially young ones are realizing they have nothing in common with any national, racial, religious or historic identity - West is in an absolute identity crises and it's knocking out a lot of people. Everyone is sensing this.
Why do you think Apocalyptic movies, games and books are so popular, especially those ones where the world is destroyed and individuals recreate their own communities from scratch fighting external forces, be it zombies or aliens, the Great Reset and a new beginning is the trending Theme. People are wanting small actual communities to be part of something.
My fear is that the chaos is only starting, these things will only accelerate thanks to technological advancement and political division which is becoming more apparent thanks to technology.
What every the solution, we as Christians must stick together and support each other. We can't go through this thing alone. That's my summary.
I think an example of that "movement out into chaos" is the realm that used to be relegated to artists and shamans. These used to be fringe elements of our society, and they were responsible for injecting the culture with little doses of chaos, like building an immunity to a poison. In the modern age, we popularized the margins and told everyone to go out and play. Now everyone is their own artist and shaman, and it's collapsing the stable center.
Thank you so much for another great video!
Very enlightening, thank you!
Your microfone is often overmodulating. Maybe you can change your audio settings in future videos.
Had to revisit an old banger
Amazing information!! Thanks 🙏🏻
Thank you for this great lecture Jonathan.
As a side note, for Christians, I think, when one gets angry about something in some cultural sense, it is a good thing, to find that person online, and sincerely pray for them. Not even that they 'change their mind' (for that is their business, and between them and God) about some thing or another, but simply that they experience the knowledge of the love of God, and are safe, and at peace, and are doing well in all their affairs, so far as God permits or wills.
19:34 this makes me think of district 9 which is a rare exception where the aliens arive and they actually need our help and they end up being a marginalized minority in human society.
Thanks
All I can say is......THANK YOU!!!
Tq ❤. Poignant message
Disgust is just an excuse to disown. Why would we ever do this to our own?
The cross, or crucifixion is no coincidence either,
Christ, is torn between left and right, sacrifices self to mediate humanity.
We have some scientists who suggest Neanderthals or other archaic humans could have survived late in some parts of Asia. There are also stories of wildmen and giants in the region. Could Gog and Magog and the wall of Alexander be about late surviving neanderthals?
Symbolism is wisdom and microcosm awareness
This actually seems to parallel how I as a left winger who is also sympathetic to people on the right see right wingers, I see them as appealing to romance and emotion and passion, romanticized ideas of nationalism and tradition, people on the left I see as more rationalistic and analytical, the grand traditons of mythology compared with the science of sociology. For example people on the left will say we need to abolish gender, that we should be moving twords a genderless society, I see their reasoning that gender is an arbitrary set of expectations that shouldn't be imposed on people, but I feel gender to be an enrichment to the human experience, the passionate reveling masculinity and femininity in the sexual act for example. I think we need both our emotional and rational nature's but I think we should lead with the rational. As Jesus said "in spirit and in truth"
You should learn to paragraph
Amazing!
I really love your videos. I am really interested to hear your explanation on why does devils exist? I mean Do they also have free will and Why would they defy God when they know God's power?
The Apostles saw Jesus’ power with their own eyes, but they still betrayed, ran away, and denied Him.
Whats the name of the painting used at 6:18?? And who made it?? Its awsome
I believe that's Michaelangelo's temptation of st anthony the desert father. Although I'm sure you found that answer by now.
@@DavidLarson100 Thank you sir.. I had not😊
🤯 Powerful
Amazing
I’ve always thought this was true when people speak of “undeveloped” or “underdeveloped” nations.
Fantastic stuff.
34:00 The same structure. Holy Moly
On how we solve dehumanization: It seems intuitively Christ-like that we at least assume the role of the de-humanized, perhaps while simultaneously becoming the epitome of "progress," to throw their value system ultimately into question. Be an intelligent southerner, a sophisticated and conservative black man, a high achieving Mexican immigrant, a reasonable progressive, etc etc. Maybe there's a more willful and extreme form of accomplishing this, much like Jesus ate with the sinners, to throw yourself into the midst of these "identities" in order to redeem them, in some sense. Just thinking out loud.
On second glance, this is probably too inauthentic: really it's about redeeming your own "identity," rather than assuming a different one. Hence it's better to change others than to pretend to be like them. So maybe identify the aspects of your identity that are the most irrationally despised, and then "redeem" them by being a good example.
I get what you’re driving at, but this might be taken as “Model Minority” by the out-group, and betrayal by your in-group.
Excellent.
8:58 that's fun moment
24:38 the pygmy's aren't the original subsaharan Africans but they are an old group.
Kind of "John A. Macdonald wasn't an exemplary man, he was a monster!"
Same song and dance. We humans just like to repeat.
0:00 Why does man dehumanize each other?
0:47 Lets go back to Genesis
Wow!
7:40 Attack on Titan spoilers
Do you think it’s possible for the majority of modern people to at least consider the symbolic worldview? It seems like the majority of modern people don’t even use formal logic. I don’t say this to put down the symbolic worldview btw, it is helping tremendously. It’s just that I am worried about the mind of modern man. Modern man is very emotional and lacks a proper knowledge of logical reasoning and symbolism.
There is no easy answer to this. Unless someone is apologetically identitarian then they will weaken their group (be it family, racial, religious group). And so put their group in danger. If someone does not favour their group, are they more moral or less? I would say less. The word dehumanise is a little strong, but one must always recognize who is in his "group" and who is not, or face extinction, something the West is on track to doing.
Jonathan, think of a torus. God creates from the Void at the zero point of the torus. 11:11, : being zero point or the point of creation. If you use Fibonacci counting out from zero point you get 1,1,2,3,5 and so on. A torus spirals up and out from the center and then curves to return to zero point. Anyway, thanks for sharing. Also, torus looks like an apple, snake on a pole looks like a sine wave along a straight line or in 3D, a spiral around an axis.
Also, for a possible answer to your question of how to deal with our tendencies to place ourselves above and dehumanize, maybe we can look to God and remember that all originates from Creator, that we are all equal in God’s eyes, that all knowledge and wisdom comes from God, not us. Humility, in other words. You are saying that God is everything, all things, all spectacular of its creation. Yes!!!
❤❤❤❤❤
Dropping some bombs which I never considered.
5.06 min mark , a vaccine ,how prophetic to anyone listening in May 2021
Why sexual energy in chaos ?
Sex is chaos; birth is order out of that chaos.
15:10
so the "get with the time" of the progressives is like the "get in our line" of the conservatives
The Renaissance is not reaching back to pre-Christian gods... Apollo is right there in the Bible - I have planted, Apollo watered, God gave the increase.
Your discourse is sophistry for the profane...
It's a person named Apollo.
@@christophersnedeker2065 the bible is cypher
the profane sees only a dude named Apollo, only a dude named Paul
@@criztu I believe there is some good in paganism, Paul quotes from hymns to Zues, but ultimately their gods are envisioned in the image of curuptible man, key word being curuptible.
@@christophersnedeker2065 there was no real person named Paul.
Paul is like Charles Magnus, Charles Martel, Karl Marx. it's a cypher.
Paul means "the small one". the small one is an image that fell from Zeus. Theos. God.
Paul planted, Apollo watered, God gave the increase, is the trinity. Apollo is John the Baptist, the Elias. Elios, the Sun. the ancient name of Saturn. Shamash of the semites.
The story is that the ancient sun(Saturn) died, while giving birth to a smaller sun(Mars). the rings of Saturn are frozen water. the water from the explosion of Saturn also deposited on planet Earth - a baptism or the great flood.
Martel and Marx both mean Mars.
Karl, Charles mean "man", anthropos in greek.
you can get aquainted with the celestial events that are encoded in the bible, in the Symbols of an Alien Sky documentary made by the guys over at Thunderbolts channel
The bible clearly says "sons of god" are angels. Why mislead people?
do you have the time to listen to me whine,about nothing and everything allat once. 😄
First
🏆
Blah blah blah.
Jonathan Pageau tell me more about the psychological significance of returning back to the primordial chaos lol. Nice fake Jesus look by the way. Lol
"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" -1 Corinthians 11:14
Lol hippie Jesus fraud
Jonathan Pageau nah son, I live under the New Testament, not the old. And the Holy Spirit gives power, not unkept hair. Hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit if error: those who are of us hear us, those who are not of us, hear us not.
Your teaching is weak, like the scribes, lacking any real power. It also lacks The conviction and earnest burning of the Holy Spirit. Hereby know we the spirit of error.
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." -2 Thessalonians 2:7-12
please, teach us Master, git user53, ... for we cannot converse with Thee ... enlighten me as to what are the truths for me to enter into the kingdom - hast thou not come here to prove Jonathan's very point? please watch the whole video!!!
Martin Loch believe and thou shalt be converted. And no I came to mock Jon and his foolish teachings designed to lead fools and silly woman away from the truth and into sin. If you read your Bible you would see Jon is a con-man playing a Christian. And that's about it... How's your day?
I'm doing well! How about yourself? I would love to talk to you more openly about my beliefs... and I would also like to hear about yours... I'll be back in a few days... God bless!
❤❤❤❤❤❤