A Eulogy for P.T.

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  • Опубліковано 20 тра 2015
  • "It's not gonna happen, and that breaks my greasy heart."
    Read Guillermo Del Toro recount how happy everything was before it all went to hell: www.ign.com/articles/2015/05/1...
    Last week on the TOVG Podcast, we recount the Konami takedown experience, the lasting appeal of WoW, and the kickstarting appeal of Igivania: www.thatonevideogamer.com/cate...
  • Ігри

КОМЕНТАРІ • 1,1 тис.

  • @PontusHultgren
    @PontusHultgren 7 років тому +621

    "There was a game here. It's gone now."

    • @Tamaki742
      @Tamaki742 7 років тому +1

      Pontus Hultgren Nice ref.

    • @betterbinary8864
      @betterbinary8864 6 років тому

      ua-cam.com/video/W5fSDKOWlH8/v-deo.html

  • @JetSetDex
    @JetSetDex 8 років тому +390

    Not to mention Junji Ito was apparently involved with this game as well. I would have killed to see some of his monster designs brought to life in this game :(.

    • @Tamaki742
      @Tamaki742 7 років тому +35

      JetSetDex Ikr, like that's one more thing we lost from this game being cancelled.

    • @a.p.5342
      @a.p.5342 5 років тому +5

      Exactly! All of his work is so horrific and so original! I would’ve absolutely loved to see creatures come to life in a video game! The fact we could actually hide/run away from one of his creations would been amazing.

    • @IIHaseOII
      @IIHaseOII 3 роки тому

      you might get to see them soon

  • @stuffedmannequin
    @stuffedmannequin 8 років тому +462

    A year later it still fucking hurts.

    • @MrAnonymous825
      @MrAnonymous825 8 років тому +172

      The true phantom pain

    • @Sacrocide
      @Sacrocide 8 років тому +27

      +The Maybe N00b Now it all makes sense

    • @danrg26
      @danrg26 7 років тому +23

      Jayson Ducharme 2 years later too

    • @theguyinthere
      @theguyinthere 7 років тому

      Jayson Ducharme two years later she still keeps coming to my ps4

    • @BigBoss-sm9xj
      @BigBoss-sm9xj 7 років тому

      theguyinthere haha

  • @Cyber_Noot
    @Cyber_Noot 9 років тому +1252

    I guess being a gamer is a long period of disappointment punctuated by small moments of pure joy.

    • @heavytransit
      @heavytransit 9 років тому +10

      Natalie Barber hahaha so dramatic but so true

    • @silver_splinter3633
      @silver_splinter3633 9 років тому +9

      Natalie Barber Well said.

    • @feuerhirn
      @feuerhirn 9 років тому +11

      Natalie Barber That's what it is, sadly.

    • @JoshActionReplay
      @JoshActionReplay 9 років тому +11

      Natalie Barber So true, and really what it's like to be a big fan of any art form really (be it Film, Music, etc.).

    • @gnarkillguch
      @gnarkillguch 9 років тому +24

      Actually, I think you're talking about my sex life..

  • @TheGraveyarder
    @TheGraveyarder 9 років тому +135

    konami traded a combined audience of kojima, deltorro, and reedus fans for the mobile gaming audience
    yep
    they just pulled off something not even EA would do

  • @thecarrotmonster8827
    @thecarrotmonster8827 8 років тому +136

    When you rescue Code Talker in MGS5 you hear the same guy on the radio talking about a guy killing his family

    • @Snikeros
      @Snikeros 8 років тому +27

      Can't wait for Konami to remove him in the next update...

    • @angelgirl976
      @angelgirl976 8 років тому +2

      I also found that on my way to the Devil's House. Creepy as hell.

    • @thecarrotmonster8827
      @thecarrotmonster8827 8 років тому +14

      +Lauren Carroll I think that was supposed to be a cool little easter Egg. fuck Konami

    • @angelgirl976
      @angelgirl976 8 років тому

      TheCarrotMonster 88
      It was both very cool and very creepy and I loved it :)

    • @samuellacher6423
      @samuellacher6423 7 років тому +21

      Yup. I remember hearing the murder stories on one of the radios in an outpost tent. I stopped in the middle of the mission I was doing just to listen in. I thought it sounded familiar...

  • @sethappleton7628
    @sethappleton7628 7 років тому +247

    Konami didn't only destroy P.T and the new Silent Hill game. But they also destroyed all hope for a Guillermo del Toro to ever make a game ever again. He claimed that the experience working with Konami was so horrible that they ruined his whole opinion on video game publishers so much that he never wants to make a game ever again.

    • @justbny9278
      @justbny9278 7 років тому +25

      man Guilherme del toro could be the new GAME DESIGNER of our generation. So much potencial for FUCKONAMI to destroy

    • @mickeyakerfeels7298
      @mickeyakerfeels7298 7 років тому +42

      and then Death Stranding second trailer happen.

    • @kraajkase
      @kraajkase 7 років тому +8

      sure, but he is not actually involved with the game. Kojima 3D scanned him and someone else is doing the acting. It's still a pretty nice gesture though.

    • @omarali7605
      @omarali7605 7 років тому +19

      Well Del Toro said in the interview linked in this videos description that Kojima is the only person he will follow "to the ends of the earth". I think that he can be persuaded to help with a Kojima game but i think all hope is lost for basically anything else lol

    • @IvoBeam
      @IvoBeam 7 років тому +1

      I'm glad that Death Stranding exist

  • @Nick0Kyuubi0Narion
    @Nick0Kyuubi0Narion 9 років тому +265

    Man, I still wanna see Kojima do a horror. I know that, essentially, the Silent Hill IP is lost to Konami, which is something I don't like to think about too much, but Kojima won't exactly expire after Phantom Pain. And if del Toro is still up for it, I don't think pitching a Silent Hills replacement would be a hard sell for many publishers.
    I honestly have never seen myself be so desperately optimistic. We'll see.

    • @Pletzmutz
      @Pletzmutz 9 років тому +9

      iDragonarion They most definately would get millions if they went to Kickstarter e.g.. I'm sure there will be a Kojima horror in the future.

    • @Tomwithnonumbers
      @Tomwithnonumbers 9 років тому +9

      Pletzmutz I don't know if Kojima could adjust to a kickstarter game. He's been pushing boundaries for graphics so long and the Metal Gear Games always takes ages to make.
      If he could though, he'd be one of my ideal kickstarter backers

    • @WarMomPT
      @WarMomPT 9 років тому

      iDragonarion I am hopeful for a crowdfunding effort, but I'm also cautious. Konami stated that they are in talks for more Kojima / Del Toro collaborations, and that makes me worry that they might have some contract agreement which means they cannot collab outside of Konami for a set period of time.

    • @SarunasZukauskas
      @SarunasZukauskas 9 років тому +1

      iDragonarion This is not a game that could be made with a few million. Kojima needs a triple A budget.

    • @_Snowflame
      @_Snowflame 9 років тому +1

      ***** Tranquil Mounds!

  • @Goatsee
    @Goatsee 9 років тому +563

    Konami is typing up a dmca claim as we speak

    • @Tamacat388
      @Tamacat388 9 років тому +89

      Goatsee I wonder what they'll forget this time.

    • @uberogg
      @uberogg 9 років тому +86

      Thanatos388 hopefully pushing the send button

    • @dstubby82
      @dstubby82 9 років тому +4

      Goatsee This would be more funny if it probably wasn't true. XP

    • @isaacargesmith8217
      @isaacargesmith8217 9 років тому +7

      Goatsee I can't help but think of "Metal Gear Solid Dong" when looking at your profile pic.

    • @lewled4life
      @lewled4life 9 років тому +4

      Goatsee Typing up you say? If it's anything like their last DMCA claim they wont type anything at all

  • @BigBossJ
    @BigBossJ 9 років тому +495

    Deleting the demo and making it where you can't redownload was just childish of konami

    • @Tamacat388
      @Tamacat388 9 років тому +9

      Chuckles The Echidna It was probably because of Norman Reedus's face being in the game to be fair.

    • @benjamins2916
      @benjamins2916 9 років тому +26

      Thanatos388 It would've been just as easy to patch it out.

    • @matt200717
      @matt200717 9 років тому +10

      LemonStacks :D Speaking of which, the last thing thing Konami could possibly do now in their little fit of rage is patch the game into unplayable-ness.

    • @Tamacat388
      @Tamacat388 9 років тому +3

      LemonStacks :D Well yes but you see they just don't care.

    • @Msoulwing
      @Msoulwing 9 років тому +2

      LemonStacks :D It was my understanding that publishing patches costs money.

  • @ChrisToups
    @ChrisToups 7 років тому +50

    Even with Bunnyhop speaking over it about game mechanics and other assorted not-creepy-at-all stuff, the video footage from P.T. alone STILL scares me. Christ, there's nothing like P.T.

  • @Teppest33
    @Teppest33 9 років тому +550

    Konami made a dumbass decision cancelling this game.

    • @Jarethenator
      @Jarethenator 9 років тому +13

      Hotsex spy I only play 2 mobile games and I haven't bought a damn thing for either of them and they were free to begin with them. This is the case for most people who actively do that sort of thing anyway. But consumers are not the problem its the profit gouging corporations like that of Konami that are.

    • @hotsexspy2267
      @hotsexspy2267 9 років тому +8

      Jarethenator The only mobile game I played was Tiny Wings, which you have to use actual skill to play.
      There is a saying revolving around "Don't hate the game, hate the player" - The player being the consumers. If no one brought Mobile games then none of this would happen in the first place - that's a promise. But you know, Capitalism...
      P.S. 28 Likes, people must think I'm some sort of messiah for gaming or something?

    • @SWIFTzTrigger
      @SWIFTzTrigger 9 років тому +6

      TaoOfTheMachine The CEO had a falling out with Kojima which lead to this BS...

    • @OfficialVibi
      @OfficialVibi 9 років тому

      TaoOfTheMachine silent hills wasnt an app game so they cancelled it

    • @neoshenlong
      @neoshenlong 9 років тому +4

      TaoOfTheMachine Indeed. Super Bonnyhop said what everyone was thinking when the announcement was made. Why the fuck would they cancel this? Even if the game sucked this had potential to sell like hotcakes AND produce new costumers thanks to Del Toro and Norman Reedus fans....
      Oh Konami... Silent Hills was probably the best idea you ever had. And you ruined it with the worst idea you ever had...

  • @casedistorted
    @casedistorted 8 років тому +50

    I never got to play P.T. but I remember watching it on UA-cam when it first came out and being so excited when people found out it was going to be a Silent Hill game.

    • @casedistorted
      @casedistorted 2 роки тому

      6 years later I’ve still never been able to play P.T. Despite us finally getting a PS4 Pro in 2020.
      First thing I tried to do was download PT and it was not there. Was so sad and disappointed in Konami and Sony.

  • @WobblesandBean
    @WobblesandBean 9 років тому +302

    I really, really hope this is a wake-up call to consumers. This is all we have to look forward to. This is a perfect microcosm for the entire sorry state of AAA gaming. We vote with our dollars, and it's time we send a message to these morons.
    Oh, and by the way Mr. Hop, I worked at Blizzard during the Starcraft: Ghost development cycle. We had a playable demo in the break room. It wasn't finished, but still had several levels that were completed, and it was BRILLIANT. I'll never know why they scrapped the project.

    • @HeroicPunk
      @HeroicPunk 9 років тому +16

      Amelia Bee From what little I saw of Starcraft: Ghost, it looked amazing. So much potential. Why they never bothered to finish a game that everyone was so excited about is COMPLETELY beyond me. I must admit that I'm jealous you got to play even the basic demo for it, lol

    • @RandomAssaultPodcast
      @RandomAssaultPodcast 9 років тому

      Amelia Bee Were you a voice actor for Starcraft: Ghost?

    • @WobblesandBean
      @WobblesandBean 9 років тому +23

      Random Assault Podcast Nah, but I did do voices for WoW. Nothing spectacular, just some Night Elf NPC lines. To this day I still catching myself saying "Ishnu dal dieb"! XD

    • @WobblesandBean
      @WobblesandBean 9 років тому +16

      HeroicPunk Right?? I have NO idea why it got canned, they never told us and we weren't allowed to even mention it outside of work. Maybe they thought it would be considered a ripoff of Metroid Prime or MGS?

    • @WarMomPT
      @WarMomPT 9 років тому +13

      HeroicPunk If memory serves, OPS Magazine reported (some time after its cancellation, when doing a feature on cancelled games) that it was cancelled because of its very premise; a PC-based IP spinoff doing a console-based genre which alienated people on both platforms. Which is a bummer because it looked like a brilliantly polished product which would have made people less wary.

  • @Googlesucksballs
    @Googlesucksballs 9 років тому +43

    Press F to pay respects.

  • @CeetjeBeetje
    @CeetjeBeetje 9 років тому +268

    I deleted the game to save some space. Thought I'd just download it again when I want to play it again. Shit :(

    • @aphexpesuto
      @aphexpesuto 9 років тому +58

      CeetjeBeetje Rest in PT. ;_;7

    • @MilkBreakMinecraft
      @MilkBreakMinecraft 9 років тому +1

      CeetjeBeetje You can still redownload it. Try it!

    • @aphexpesuto
      @aphexpesuto 9 років тому +20

      BowGunner He can't, Konami disabled redownloads, even if you "own" it.

    • @MilkBreakMinecraft
      @MilkBreakMinecraft 9 років тому

      Aphex Pesuto Really? Shit. I'm pretty fucking happy for still having it on my PS4 XD

    • @CeetjeBeetje
      @CeetjeBeetje 9 років тому

      Aphex Pesuto Yeah, indeed. I still have it in my library, but when clicking download, I just get an empty screen.

  • @MrMario2011
    @MrMario2011 9 років тому +23

    This was so incredibly well done.
    RIP P.T. :'(

    • @Keroyz
      @Keroyz 3 роки тому

      Holy Shit!! I found MrMario2011’s comment! There’s no way! Let’s fuckin GO PoGChamp!

  • @Nobody-ve6dh
    @Nobody-ve6dh 6 років тому +13

    P.T. is a masterpiece of horror games. You can already see how much influence this DEMO had on the entire genre.
    This project had the talent, it had an incredible engine and it even had passion. Such a shame.
    I can only pray that Death Stranding gives us a quality glimpse into thier creative genius.

  • @athan1214
    @athan1214 9 років тому +2

    My favorite memory of P.T. was my first playthough. I had already known who had made it and what it was, so we set up a projector, and played outside in what is essentially a barn(from 8pm to 4am). We went through the majority of it without a guide(Minus the last puzzle and the FUCKING piece of paper on the pause menu.) It was me and two friends playing it, going through it, talking about things, responding to jumpscares. Eventually more people started randomly showing up, until we had about ten random people playing it on. We were all stuck on that last puzzle, trying to figure out what to do, and suddenly, after looping through it many times, Lisa does her run in the hallway(past the bathroom, crouched, next to the front door) and possesses me. Scared shitless, we all breathe a sigh of relief. Looking at the guide, it tell me to go to the bathroom and wait for Lisa to pop up(We had no mic, so we were trying to understand how to get the baby to cry without one.) Sure enough, the moment I turn around, Lisa pops up to kill me, scaring us again from our calmness, forcing one friend to flee the room. We didn't finish it that night, but it was beautiful.

  • @obienator
    @obienator 9 років тому +180

    Kojima and Del Toro get on Kickstarter with "Quiet Valleys" and shut up and take my money!

    • @casmith1998
      @casmith1998 9 років тому +20

      Omar Brown "Quiet Valleys"
      This comment is unappreciated, thanks for the laugh

    • @Nixel85
      @Nixel85 9 років тому +10

      Mute Horizons

    • @SuperPiposaru
      @SuperPiposaru 8 років тому +6

      Speechless Rises

    • @ezekielrose5173
      @ezekielrose5173 8 років тому +9

      Noiseless Earth Lumps

    • @yedffgd
      @yedffgd 8 років тому

      +Indigo Swirl How about they just name the game #FuckKonami

  • @057wolf
    @057wolf 8 років тому +23

    The fact that we will never play Silent Hills, is the most horrific thing of all.

  • @nate3487
    @nate3487 9 років тому +15

    That Last Guardian joke is pretty funny in hindsight.

  • @blackfiredragonthe13th43
    @blackfiredragonthe13th43 9 років тому +16

    Unbelievable. The whole eulogy made me cry. I was planning to buy this silent hill game, would have been the first silent hill game I ever got. The whole reason I wanted to was because my family loves the walking dead and my mother adores Norman reedus.
    Guess I'll have to settle for the next best thing, metal gear solid V, which will be the only metal gear game I'll ever play.

    • @nihilumbraste2428
      @nihilumbraste2428 9 років тому +6

      Black Fire Dragon the 13th You should really play MGS3 tho, it's the best in the series and you don't need any knowledge about the series to play it; the perfect entry point.

    • @krustin
      @krustin 9 років тому +2

      You should also try the first four silent hill games anyway. They were horror masterpieces, filled with story and suspense.

    • @pseudogenesis
      @pseudogenesis 9 років тому +5

      Why the hell would MGSV be the only metal gear game you'll ever play?

  • @johnyhar
    @johnyhar 9 років тому +103

    BTW Kojima wants to make a PT game even if hi isnt in the company now, maby something like a kickstarter project

    • @FlawedIntellect
      @FlawedIntellect 9 років тому +38

      ***** They could use PT as a starting point for the actual name, by having PT be initials for a new IP name that carries on the Silent Hill legacy as a spiritual successor. Perhaps they could call it something like "Phantom Theory".

    • @papadeuce5311
      @papadeuce5311 9 років тому +6

      kojima on kickstarter, the answer to the question 'why have you given away all your money?'

    • @tltar253
      @tltar253 9 років тому +2

      ***** You know how expensive is to work the Foxengine? 50 million dollars AT LEAST will cost to make this game.

    • @Msoulwing
      @Msoulwing 9 років тому +3

      tltar253 They'd certainly have to scale everything back to... 10% of the original plan, but it'd still be good to see something done, even on a low budget.
      It's not like production values equal a good game after all.

    • @tltar253
      @tltar253 9 років тому +1

      Msoulwing Kojima should go indie now. But you cant get Del Toro and Norman with an indie budget.

  • @cgollimusic
    @cgollimusic 8 років тому +147

    Hi. Welcome to the comment section. Where many of us hide from the visuals of this video.
    Care to join us?

    • @mikemarks6136
      @mikemarks6136 6 років тому +5

      Carl Golli why hide if its not scary? Also im on mobile so.... rip

    • @jasonalen7459
      @jasonalen7459 6 років тому +2

      When Lisa "kills" you in PT, you fall to the floor after which you hear a zipper being unzipped and some... *Noises...*

  • @ShahStark
    @ShahStark 9 років тому +35

    The Fallout Van Buren of Silent Hill games I guess.
    (Loved Fallout 3 and New Vegas however so who knows what might happen to the silent hill franchise)

    • @jovialgiblets4465
      @jovialgiblets4465 9 років тому +5

      Robb_Stark nothing, absolutely nothing.
      given the way konami has been acting like a child throwing a tantrum i doubt we'll ever see much of silent hill beyond freemium mobile games

    • @ShahStark
      @ShahStark 9 років тому

      Jovial Giblets
      Oh fun, might as well hope for a spiritual successor from kojima.

    • @ShahStark
      @ShahStark 9 років тому +1

      Squerky Tur
      I think you were thinking of my bastard brother mate.

    • @ShahStark
      @ShahStark 9 років тому +1

      Squerky Tur
      Or am I!? (Yeah im dead :/)

    • @ShahStark
      @ShahStark 9 років тому

      Its entirely possible someone could buy the franchise from them or not..

  • @deadlandplacebo1695
    @deadlandplacebo1695 4 роки тому +1

    The way he says "don't touch that Dial, folks" has been stuck in my head for years

  • @ShiivGaming
    @ShiivGaming 9 років тому +210

    At least we'll continue to have a plentiful supply of good scary games like Five Nights at Freddys :^)
    *seriously what the fuck happened to the horror genre*

    • @jovialgiblets4465
      @jovialgiblets4465 9 років тому +97

      Sam Shiiv youtube happened to the horror genre

    • @OuroborosChoked
      @OuroborosChoked 9 років тому +2

      Sam Shiiv Fatal Frame 5!

    • @NachoTubio
      @NachoTubio 9 років тому

      Sam Shiiv But even though the forst one was marketed as the horror, the second one was all about strategy and management, and the third one was all bout the story, so i wouldn't count it as a HORROR game, but as a management game

    • @jovialgiblets4465
      @jovialgiblets4465 9 років тому +1

      Beautiful Baby that went over your head didnt it?

    • @XxSoulStealer1997xX
      @XxSoulStealer1997xX 9 років тому +2

      Sam Shiiv The horror genre is really hard to master because you need a balance of everything in the game.
      Horror is by far the hardest thing to take on.

  • @GoatJesus
    @GoatJesus 9 років тому +35

    I am sad.

  • @ValkenEX
    @ValkenEX 9 років тому +10

    George, you have a talent and that talent is making me sad.

  • @jna1417
    @jna1417 7 років тому +2

    A great game director, a great movie director, and a great actor. All making a single game. Rest in Peace Silent Hills, we loved you before we even met you.

  • @keystrix3704
    @keystrix3704 9 років тому +3

    As soon as the music started I was shot in the feels. Again. I thought all my tears were spent but it seems my well of sadness for this game's demise is bottomless.

  • @mrfoot67
    @mrfoot67 7 років тому +27

    Well, at the very least we're still getting The Last Guardian.

  • @podto0426
    @podto0426 9 років тому +44

    Goddamn it George, goddman it, you know what you're me making do? do you!? Do you know how much of a pain in the ass installing Silent Hill 2 and 3 on PC is? do you!?... mountin' .ISOs, frickin' wide screen patches, command tinkery, disabling CPU Cores, modifications to .ini files for controllers... *sigh*...
    I'm so gonna thank you later though...

    • @OuroborosChoked
      @OuroborosChoked 9 років тому

      Taters Tomaters ...you could just play the PS2 or Xbox versions. They're not that expensive, last I checked.

    • @nobody2021
      @nobody2021 9 років тому +2

      OuroborosChoked full HD though.

    • @ciligonzalez2897
      @ciligonzalez2897 2 роки тому

      Ps2 versión on al CRT. The only way to play SH games

  • @hazardousjazzgasm129
    @hazardousjazzgasm129 9 років тому +25

    Silent Hill 2 is about a man who does weird things and believes weird things because he was really anxious to have sex.
    Silent Hill 3 is about a girl who has weird things and weird beliefs imposed onto her because she has anxiety about getting pregnant/having sex.
    PT is about being trapped in a weird hallway because....cockroach sex....sounds legit.

  • @gemis8
    @gemis8 9 років тому

    One of your finest works yet, Bunnyhop, keep it up!

  • @SkyTheStarhero
    @SkyTheStarhero 9 років тому +10

    Can't wait to watch this after its taken down and brought back up again

  • @BarendCombrink
    @BarendCombrink 9 років тому +34

    The game does look incredible. With Konami switching focus to mobile, what is going to happen with the Fox Engine? Would be a shame to let it go to waste.

    • @EscanorTheBrave
      @EscanorTheBrave 9 років тому

      Barend Combrink Does Konami own the rights to the Fox Engine?

    • @Finalblue1234
      @Finalblue1234 9 років тому +27

      EscanorTheBrave yep. Worst part is Kojima spend years and millions of dollars creating that engine and he was damn proud of it. Now it's probably gonna be used for some shitty "arcade" slot machines

    • @SebirothAssassin
      @SebirothAssassin 9 років тому

      I heared Kojima is the owner of the FOX Engine but I didn't found a rliable source

    • @nobody2021
      @nobody2021 9 років тому

      Barend Combrink if they do own it, they'll probably sell it at some point.

    • @lordkiku2
      @lordkiku2 9 років тому +2

      Barend Combrink Not mobile, no...
      To Pachinko machines. If that first vid from Bunny was right, they're putting all of their chips in the gambling basket, as that's actually Konami's biggest market, even more-so than video games.
      And if Japan passes the bill to make gambling fully legal in their country, than it'll pay off for them as an extra dose of lemon juice to add to the salt already settled firmly in our still-festering wounds.

  • @GlorifiedGameplay
    @GlorifiedGameplay 8 років тому +1

    Tears blurred my eyes for a second while watching this video... I have been playing for 26 years now, and seeing what Konami has become and seeing how they kind of enslaved Kojima at the same time they were outsourcing Castlevanias and Silent Hills saddened and frustrated me more than I thought any video game related events could. And today you reminded me that they eventually managed to completely kill themselves, along with a few of the best franchises that once were, and eventually, managed to further my lack of hope for what I think now will actually never be the futur of video games... I will stop ranting now because, as a French, I just exhausted my english speaking capacity right now, and I am not even sure it makes sense. It comes from the heart though... Can this world really be as sad as it fucking seems? Now I know.

  • @StonedCabbage
    @StonedCabbage 8 років тому

    just watched your REmake vid then this and instantly subbed. Nothing better then a gamer who not only knows his stuff but has been around long enough to have enjoyed a time when great games like Resident evil and Silent hill were still made for fans of the series not mainstream consumerism, your passion and appreciation shows

  • @Shilag
    @Shilag 9 років тому +6

    I don't think anyone should "hate jump scares". I hate the way jump scares are implemented in "horror" games today, but that doesn't mean that jump scares don't serve a purpose if they're built up correctly and make sense in the game world.
    The worst case is just when there are loud strings, musical cues or crashes that simply don't match up with what's going on in the game. Those are just terrible ways of trying to startle the audience. And the "thing falls off other thing for no apparently reason to make abrupt noise" has gotten a bit too clichéd to feel satisfying anymore.
    Still, use jump scares correctly, and they're a very effective tool that'll keep your heart pounding long after the scare is gone.

  • @uberogg
    @uberogg 9 років тому +3

    I believe i speak for all of us here when I say, R.I.P. in peace P.T. and, by extension Silent Hill 1999 - 2015, taken from us too soon, gone but never to be forgotten

    • @EscanorTheBrave
      @EscanorTheBrave 9 років тому +6

      uberogg Actually Silent Hill has been dead long before that.

    • @uberogg
      @uberogg 9 років тому +1

      EscanorTheBrave yeah you're probably right, but think of it this way (and before i start yes i know it's a weird metaphor but bare with me), P.T. could've been the operation that made silent hill not need the life support it's on and get it back on it's way to recovery, but now with it cancelled that last ray of hope has been extinguished, and now we're just waiting for the doctors to arrive, turn off the machine and declare it's time of death......(wow I really need to cut down on the medical dramas)

    • @michaelkemel9711
      @michaelkemel9711 8 років тому

      +uberogg It sure is dead, not that Konami would want to admit that. "HIT THE LEVER!"

  • @rhaenyrareigns2200
    @rhaenyrareigns2200 6 років тому

    That ending, though... and that music... thank you.

  • @perrokuky2
    @perrokuky2 9 років тому +1

    I simply love your videos. Keep up the good work!

  • @AshyGr33n
    @AshyGr33n 9 років тому +26

    I wish, oh I wish Kojima would leave Konami as soon as he's done with MGS5, go find Del Toro and Reedus, start a Kickstarter campaign and make Silent Hills under a different name, like...Twilight Spring...or something.

    • @RedTailTV
      @RedTailTV 9 років тому +6

      Helmstif, the Sarcastic Asianman Quiet Mountains. :3

    • @Majinhero
      @Majinhero 9 років тому +6

      *****
      Kojima has no controle about selling it for 20 dollars, and it's to late to put a "fuck you" in the code at this point.

    • @Verminator4
      @Verminator4 9 років тому +2

      Helmstif, the Sarcastic Asianman If he does that, I don't think he'll even need a kickstarter. The story behind this whole escapade would drum up so much fan hype for any potential project that I'm sure publishers would be tripping over each other in an attempt to let them get in on it.

    • @jackbrokeheart
      @jackbrokeheart 9 років тому

      Helmstif, the Sarcastic Asianman He can probably find a good publisher willing to put forward to money for that kind of star power. Hell, I bet he's getting offers from all three major console makers all the time. I hope he collaborates with sony, they are good at making games that are works of art.

    • @WarMomPT
      @WarMomPT 9 років тому

      ***** Iga, the Metroidvania guy, had the kickstarter basically fund a social media / PR campaign which, if it drums up enough interest, would secure €5 million from a publishing partner to go to any leftover KS funds. I can see that *maybe* working for a project like this that needed a big budget.

  • @orijimi
    @orijimi 9 років тому +56

    Physical Therapy is a class you had in school? That makes it sound like you had a rough childhood.

    • @omnicowdemon
      @omnicowdemon 6 років тому

      orijimi 😁

    • @claytonstewart7866
      @claytonstewart7866 5 років тому

      It’s physical training where I am.

    • @Gavajpg
      @Gavajpg 5 років тому

      damn.. only thing worse than that was penis inspection day.. yeesh

    • @sidharthcs2110
      @sidharthcs2110 4 роки тому

      Physical Training

  • @FhtagnCthulhu
    @FhtagnCthulhu 9 років тому +1

    What a dream team, its tragic that we will never see what they could have done with Silent Hill. I hope both Kojima and Del Toro have a future in games though, I'm interested in anything they come up with.

  • @dkp142
    @dkp142 9 років тому

    Knocking it out of the park as usual. Keep up the good work George!

  • @InFiniTosEntertainment
    @InFiniTosEntertainment 9 років тому +8

    Only Konami and today's "AAA" industry could fumble something as promising as this.

  • @ZontarDow
    @ZontarDow 8 років тому +4

    At 6:12 I'm surprised you didn't go for "You might not have noticed it, but your brain did"

  • @EhCanadianGamer
    @EhCanadianGamer 7 років тому +1

    I still keep coming back for that intro. 0:05

  • @MAYOFORCE
    @MAYOFORCE 9 років тому

    Man, what a game. The first time I seen this I was actually at a sleepover, with a few friends. We didn't know you could zoom in at all, though, and had to resort to a guide.

  • @BrainSeepsOut
    @BrainSeepsOut 8 років тому +8

    It's such a shame that Kojima can't keep the FOX engine. It will forever be wasted on soccer games.

  • @Fairefacts
    @Fairefacts 8 років тому +6

    Sony's E3 conference this year has sparked a dim ember in the darkness that was PT's tragic fate. If The Last Guardian can cling to life for so long ... then perhaps there's hope for another.

  • @jennabrutananadalewski412
    @jennabrutananadalewski412 7 років тому

    My god this video gave me closure in a way. The only reason I got a ps4 was because of P.T. and the eventual Silent Hills. I got the console a day after I found out about the demo. Then it got cancelled. I always say "damn, i'm gonna have to make sure nothing happens to this ps4!" which is so funny that you said the same thing. The Silent Hill series (1-4 anyways) is my favorite thing in the world, and the whole reason I do what I do now (horror illustration thank to Ito) and I agree, Kojima was the perfect fit to carry on the torch for the series. I wasn't expecting Silent Hills to be just like the originals, actually I was hoping it wasn't. I already have the originals and they are perfect. I only expected Silent Hills to be in the same vein as the OG series. It seemed that Kojima and friends understood what made those games scary, and innovative. I'm still sad it's gone, but Kojma is still in the business, along with many other creatives who understand horror and take huge inspiration from the series just like I do. I went on a ramble. I'll end by saying how much I enjoy your videos. You are incredibly talented and I learn a lot from your content. Thank you!

  • @UnofficialJoker
    @UnofficialJoker 6 років тому +1

    Here I am in 2018, still sad that this isn't happening

  • @CoDxMassacre
    @CoDxMassacre 9 років тому +2

    Now all I can think about is "Eulogy" by Tool. "He had a lot to say, he nothing to say." I really hope they release an album this year, and even though I don't like horror games, I might have picked this one up because it looked really interesting.

  • @lSeKToRl
    @lSeKToRl 9 років тому +11

    4:15 you are dead wrong. The reason it looks so good is because rendering flat objects is easy. Furthermore the environments are tiny pushing lower polygons and allowing the PS4 to handle higher texture resolutions with it's limited capacity.

    • @Yu__Narukami
      @Yu__Narukami 9 років тому +11

      SeKToR It's an opinion.

    • @lSeKToRl
      @lSeKToRl 9 років тому +1

      Yu Narukami You are conflating opinion and fact.

    • @Yu__Narukami
      @Yu__Narukami 9 років тому +15

      SeKToR "P.T is still the best looking game on the PS4"
      This is a statement that derives from an opinion, that takes its form for the purpose of a professionally written essay.

    • @Ireallylikepie22
      @Ireallylikepie22 9 років тому +5

      Yu Narukami fucking rekt

    • @lSeKToRl
      @lSeKToRl 9 років тому +1

      Yu Narukami Let me clarify, I was referring to the future ability of the PS4 to perform at the level of this game.

  • @doctoradventure413
    @doctoradventure413 8 років тому +1

    the more I find out about P.T. the more it hurts because I got my PS4 the day it was removed and I will never get to know about one of the most mysterious games ever

  • @tdubya97
    @tdubya97 9 років тому

    You're really down to earth and you make good videos.

  • @azaelandy04
    @azaelandy04 9 років тому +24

    Somebody (Sony) needs to fund this game,

    • @NathanCassidy721
      @NathanCassidy721 9 років тому

      After what Sony did to The Order, no.

    • @Doublicon
      @Doublicon 9 років тому +4

      God no! Somebody who is platform agnostic, please. Like Bethesda, Valve, or 2K.

    • @Jeter6261
      @Jeter6261 9 років тому +2

      Nathan Cassidy Sony didn't do anything to The Order, that was all Ready At Dawn. And this won't happen. Going by this, you might as well revive Del Toro's "inSANE".

    • @SuperMokkula
      @SuperMokkula 9 років тому +2

      I really hope Sony will take kojima in

    • @christopherdylanriquelmerod
      @christopherdylanriquelmerod 9 років тому +1

      Andy Azael I just hope he makes his own company with the staff from Kojima Productions.

  • @Br0kenMask
    @Br0kenMask 5 років тому +5

    don't forget Junji Ito fans.

  • @theguyinthere
    @theguyinthere 7 років тому

    still remember when this was going on and it feels incredible

  • @mikegreiling
    @mikegreiling 8 років тому

    Would love to see you do a review series of the first four Silent Hill games.

  • @JackieFroSTALKER
    @JackieFroSTALKER 9 років тому +3

    God damn, the more I linger on this whole situation the more depressing it gets. I loved Metal Gear and Castlevania and I always though Silent Hill looked cool. Now it's all dead.

  • @SZF123456
    @SZF123456 9 років тому +5

    Oh don't worry, we'll get a Silent Hill on FUCKING MOBILE, OH HI ARE YOU NOT SUFFICIENTLY SPOOKED WELL PAY FOR THIS DLC AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

  • @TrapnestShinigami
    @TrapnestShinigami 9 років тому +2

    I always would look around on the internet for "rare games" I even made a video about it in the past. And suddenly I now own one: P.T.
    It's really strange to position yourself over the Demo on the PS4 dashboard... it feels so ghostly... adds up to how creepy the demo is, but even if it's not as rare as those Golden NWC NES cartridges, it's nice to know you own a piece of gaming history.
    Yooka-Layle, Bloodstained and Shenmue III are beacons of light in this "horrible night to have a curse".
    Hopefully we'll see something that Kojima will do via Kickstarter. it's a whole new world. The developer having direct contact with the fans.

  • @GeceSahaf
    @GeceSahaf 9 років тому

    Dude great video, im getting chills while listening this i dont know why :d

  • @bondfall0072
    @bondfall0072 9 років тому +6

    Loved the joke in the beginning. Also why doesn't someone recreate pt on the source engine or adventure game studio, and give it away on steam for free? You technically wouldn't be violating copyright law right?

  • @tamerdp
    @tamerdp 9 років тому +13

    WHAT THE FUCK
    I THOUGHT DEL TORO WAS A MEXICAN GUY

    • @isaacargesmith8217
      @isaacargesmith8217 9 років тому +11

      tamerdp I MEXICAN'T BELIEVE THIS!

    • @balrogdahomie
      @balrogdahomie 9 років тому

      He isn't?
      I mean, "del Toro" literally means "of the bull" in Spanish so I'd assume he's from either Spain or a South American country

    • @isaacargesmith8217
      @isaacargesmith8217 9 років тому +3

      balrogdahomie Or Mexican.

    • @xDchannel12345
      @xDchannel12345 9 років тому +1

      balrogdahomie Guillermo del Toro is Mexican.

    • @soulreaverable
      @soulreaverable 9 років тому +1

      *balrogdahomie+* you do know people in Mexico speak spanish too, right?

  • @SketchBookShortFilms
    @SketchBookShortFilms 9 років тому

    Oh The Last Guardian...I had just stopped mourning too!
    Beautiful video, by the way.

  • @roronoapedro
    @roronoapedro 9 років тому

    I still get anxious when I'm watching P.T. footage like this. I've seen all the game has to offer many times now, and it's just being talked over, but the imagery and atmosphere of the game still get to me every single time. That's how good of a product Konami lost, and even worst, that's how good of a product we lost.

  • @Yama_1291
    @Yama_1291 9 років тому +4

    I've seen a few cancellations in my time.
    Never once have I been this angry and disappointed about one.
    Oh well..
    Hey mister Kojima and Del Toro. How does "Quiet Downs" sound to you? I hear Kickstarter can do great things.

  • @Ddiaboloer
    @Ddiaboloer 9 років тому +5

    Did you mean PE instead of PT in the first joke?

    • @Internetzspacezshipz
      @Internetzspacezshipz 9 років тому +36

      Ddiaboloer I'm sure it was called "PT" in some places, as in "Physical Training" instead of "Physical Education".

  • @solidcake2998
    @solidcake2998 9 років тому

    Really enjoy your content. Keep up the good work!

  • @haedencouturier3519
    @haedencouturier3519 7 років тому

    It's 2017 and this still hurts

  • @Miyakolover
    @Miyakolover 9 років тому +4

    Imagine Kojima joining Atlus and continuing working on P.T under a different name

    • @EscanorTheBrave
      @EscanorTheBrave 9 років тому

      Miyakolover Atlus? I would fire my money towards them with a fucking bazooka!

    • @Miyakolover
      @Miyakolover 9 років тому +1

      EscanorTheBrave It's awesome to imagine Atlus' creativity combined with Kojima's craziness, huh?

    • @EscanorTheBrave
      @EscanorTheBrave 9 років тому

      Miyakolover
      I absolutely adore Atlus. Somehow I feel Kojima would fit nicely there.

    • @cjmoore9966
      @cjmoore9966 9 років тому +1

      EscanorTheBrave Not to mention how Atlus is now owned by SEGA, which means they'd have Kojima too. Now I'm imagining a Kojima-directed Shenmue sequel or successor or such.

    • @EscanorTheBrave
      @EscanorTheBrave 9 років тому

      CJ Moore
      That would be amazing as fuck!

  • @asendimchev1996
    @asendimchev1996 9 років тому +4

    Kojima could just make another horror game. P.T. seems largely unrelated to older sillent hill games, so I think it can work out fine. We might just get the a game very similar to what Silent Hills was going to be.

    • @Tamacat388
      @Tamacat388 9 років тому +4

      Quiptipt He's Kojima. He can find people willing to give him money. If not from Nintendo or Capcom or something then from Kickstarter.

    • @2la84me
      @2la84me 7 років тому

      A. Dimchev Quiet Mountains.

  • @PwnerGeist
    @PwnerGeist 9 років тому

    RIP PT the world needed you......I needed you

  • @ScribeNemarious
    @ScribeNemarious 9 років тому

    " Look behind you...I said LOOK BEHIND YOU" That crap on the radio legit sent cold chills down my spine the first time and I entered MAXIMUM-OVERNOPE

  • @Roadman1000
    @Roadman1000 9 років тому +8

    Remember, Silent Hills got cancelled but Five Nights at Freddy's is getting a sequel and supposedly a movie...just to remind you that there is no hope for the future of gaming.

  • @llucllumador380
    @llucllumador380 8 років тому +3

    Imagine the money Konami could make just continuing to sell this demo. People would buy it for fucking 20+ dollars. Just to see what could have been.
    I don't see what the fuck is up with Konami, if they are trying to be greedy cancelling projects and cutting content they are doing a damn poor job at it. The guy in charge is fucking everything up. I feel they will end up loosing more than if they just stayed in the triple A videogame industry.
    To me it looks like they are panicking. This whole PT ordeal feels like a rush job, quick and unthoughtful decisions. Maybe for reasons outside the video game industry, they financial state is going to shit, and they don't know what the fuck are doing themselves.
    I've seen one company go to shit after being successful. I had worked there. It takes just one stupid decision, one brings another and so on. People in charge unable to adapt to an ever changing market, making one bad call and fucking everything up. It can happen very fast.

  • @Makkasu0
    @Makkasu0 9 років тому

    My favourite gaming experience was figuring out Silent Hill 2 with my girlfriend on a tiny CRT TV about 4 years ago. I nearly bought a PS4 just so we could play PT, with a view to buying Silent Hills when it came out - I've never been more excited for a game. It's ridiculous how heartbroken I am that I'll probably never play PT and will definitely never play Silent Hills, and you captured that feeling perfectly George.

  • @zegafregaomega
    @zegafregaomega 9 років тому

    Great video as always. One of my favorite youtubers.

  • @pixel_glitched
    @pixel_glitched 7 років тому +2

    The domino effect of the shitstorm that is 2016 is as follows - Loss of P.T. (Konami's doing), Full Revelation of betrayal to Kojima-sama (Konami's doing), Lemmy Kilmister's death - cue the year 2016 and everything that followed and/or sucks. I shouldn't need to fill these blank spaces. __________, etc.
    There likely is more before this - but for sake of relevance and placement - I will just start my own "timeline" here.

    • @joaotribal
      @joaotribal 7 років тому

      StarCraft 2 Korean teams disbanded. It was very sad for people that still play RTS games.

  • @breedlove94
    @breedlove94 9 років тому +23

    Ugh, don't mention The Last Guardian...

    • @IReiteThat
      @IReiteThat 9 років тому +16

      Robert .Breedlove Japan's Half-life 3 ;_;

    • @BARMN89
      @BARMN89 9 років тому +1

      IReiteThat the difference though, in that the studio making it doesn't want to officially cancel it. Where Valve I am pretty sure has demonstrated that it HL3 isn't being made.

    • @IReiteThat
      @IReiteThat 9 років тому

      BARMN89
      Half-life 3 isn't being made?

    • @BARMN89
      @BARMN89 9 років тому

      I am pretty sure man.
      In all honesty, I don't think Valve is making anything.

    • @IReiteThat
      @IReiteThat 9 років тому

      BARMN89
      Fuck. But The Last Guardian is still being made, right?

  • @GeezyLoves420
    @GeezyLoves420 2 роки тому

    Ill never forget the abject horror and paralyzing dread I felt when I realized Lisa was behind you the whole time after the first few loops.
    I was playing with headphones on and could clearly hear two sets of footsteps almost in tandem when you walked.
    Reminded me of the movie Shutter (not the American remake) where *SPOILERS*
    The guys neck hurts the whole movie and he weighs like 80 pounds more despite not gaining weight because he was haunted by a ghost that was literally on his shoulders the entire time.
    P.T is literally still the most terrifying piece of interactive media ive ever experienced. A product of pure genius through and through.

  • @kairu009
    @kairu009 9 років тому

    Super Bunnyhop you are my new favorite channel on UA-cam.

  • @Aggrofool
    @Aggrofool 7 років тому +5

    Woops I deleted PT from my last PS4's HDD

    • @dees487
      @dees487 7 років тому +4

      Jen Soon Ng You regard.

    • @Zargabaath
      @Zargabaath 7 років тому +2

      Woops I sold my PS4.

    • @sloancore
      @sloancore 7 років тому +1

      Jen Soon Ng woops I shot my ps4

  • @PravusTheKid
    @PravusTheKid 7 років тому +4

    I got my ps4 too late :(

    • @theguyinthere
      @theguyinthere 7 років тому

      Demon House i got mine just in time

  • @omnicowdemon
    @omnicowdemon 6 років тому

    Just found you. Love your work. 😊

  • @lordcanti
    @lordcanti 9 років тому

    Fantastic video George!

  • @AdellRedwinters
    @AdellRedwinters 8 років тому +3

    Teaser. Not a demo. But yeah this sucked that it got canned

  • @EscanorTheBrave
    @EscanorTheBrave 9 років тому +3

    Very well made video. I mostly agree with you. Two things though.
    "Japanese horror created for western audiences." Please don't use that phrase again. It's completely nonsensical. Please.
    "P.T. was played best in a crowded room etc." No. Horror games are ALWAYS meant to be played by a single person, alone, in a dark environment. P.T. is the best horror experience I had since Silent Hill 3 maybe, because it managed to do what I thought was gone for good: it made me so scared I had to take breaks to clear my mind, or stop playing altogether. Like most people, I hope Koj and Del Toro get back together and work on their dream horror game, under a different company. If this opportunity is lost forever, it will be the most tragic thing that has ever happened in the history of video games.

    • @anus4122
      @anus4122 9 років тому +5

      EscanorTheBrave I disagree wholeheartedly with your second point. When you've played horror games for too long, you end becoming so desensitized to spooky shit that you no longer even jump at the most sudden of jump scares or feel anything but contentment to be playing a fun video game in the middle of moments that are supposed to make you feel terrified.
      When you get someone to play with you that has nowhere near the same experience as you with scary shit, you start to appreciate the fact that the game can freak you _both_ the fuck out by causing your buddy to shout things like "HOLY SHIT" aloud at the sight of something spooky. It's both the scariest and funnest experience to play with someone who can't handle that kind of shit, at least for me.

    • @DrDetectivePrince
      @DrDetectivePrince 9 років тому +1

      An us If Kojima and Del Toro actually did design the game explicitly to do that, then bra-fucking-vo. I know what you mean, when you watch or play something scary with someone else you tend to feed off of each other's tension and it makes them worse. A lot of people who have done that will relate to shouting at someone else to stop freaking out because it freaks you out even worse!
      Hell, I've even watched horror anime (Higurashi) in a group and having other people around who are drawn in equally to the same atmosphere (and that's the important part--it all falls apart if you don't have that) really ratchets up the anxiety. Designing a game expressly with that in mind seems like a massive challenge, but the combined experience and personality of Kojima, Del Toro, and Reedus make it seem doable.

    • @anus4122
      @anus4122 9 років тому +1

      DrDetectivePrince I would love for them to make a Silent Hill game like that, you have no idea. It would definitely have to be the niche-ist of niche titles if it explicitly catered to playing with friends, but I don't even think that's a bad thing, especially not if it's being created by the minds behind Metal Gear Solid and the upcoming Crimson Peaks. Nothing Del Toro or Kojima do is "by the book", so why should their collaborations be any different?
      Having that kind of experience with any sort of horror media is always entertaining, to say the very least. Maybe I'm biased, seeing as I got to know most of my friends through our love of horror games, but I feel like that experience is _almost_ as worthwhile as playing a horror game alone for the first time. There are some games that _need_ to be experienced without goofy banter or screams on the first go through, like SH2 and 3.

    • @jtinkerton2547
      @jtinkerton2547 9 років тому +1

      EscanorTheBrave A "Japanese game created under western influences" would still fit. With MGS this is Escape From N.Y. and other stuff, with Silent Hill it's Twin Peaks, I guess.
      It's not completely nonsensical because the two cultures are very different, there's no denying that. Just approached from the wrong angle, probably.

  • @Radi0inactivity
    @Radi0inactivity 6 років тому

    It's been three years and I'm still sad about Silent Hills.

  • @Higth115
    @Higth115 8 років тому

    I pray to god that Hideo and Guillermo get back together to bring their ideas for PT to life now that Hideo has his own studio

  • @ripoutyourprejudice
    @ripoutyourprejudice 9 років тому +8

    "Coolest game no one will get to play ?"
    It was a corridor with some interactivity.
    When I first saw the P.T. Demo I found it mind boggling that people go nuts over another first person indie horror game that wants to be Silent Hill... oh wait.
    Best graphics on the PS4 ? Yeah because it doesn't have to render much or have complex environmental altering mechanics or AI. You were just a camera going down a corridor.
    The fact that there are people idiotic enough to pay 1000$ for a PS4 with a demo on it with the whole mechanic of press forward is RETARDED.
    I absolutely love the first 3 SH games, 4 not bad, but could've been better and the less said about the rest the better.
    Silent Hills could've been amazing, I'm not doubting it especially with the high pedigree backing it up.
    Anyway with that said Konami fucked it up and this is a signal of the upcoming death of the AAA developer.

    • @anus4122
      @anus4122 9 років тому +18

      ripoutyourprejudice I don't think the gameplay or even the visuals behind P.T are what give it the mystique George alludes to.
      It's coolness factor comes from the fact that it was a mere _glimpse_ at what Kojima could do with the themes Silent Hill as a series is inherently associated with. It felt like we were only getting our feet wet with P.T, and unlike Dinosaur Planet and Star Craft: Ghost, we were able to actually experience it for ourselves. It made alot of us want to indulge and see more of it.
      It was a really cool way to market Silent Hills.

    • @ripoutyourprejudice
      @ripoutyourprejudice 9 років тому +2

      I agree on the marketing thing.

  • @pretor92
    @pretor92 8 років тому +6

    I'm glad it's dead. I got spooked just watching this video.

  • @sirderpington7704
    @sirderpington7704 9 років тому +1

    My friends house looks just like that hallway and he couldn't piss at night for a week after we played it at his house...

  • @Sergiopwn
    @Sergiopwn 7 років тому

    I can't believe it's gone...