I see the Mercy Monk as a military doctor who rushes into the battlefield to quickly pick up allies. Just writing that sentence makes me want to make a character around that concept.
I thought this was how most people looked at it. They designed it as "Punching Ghosts". You aren't trying to ever using anything except your stand, so the class is perfectly designed. But if you don't get the references then it's just a monk class where your monk doesn't actually get to attack (which is obviously the point from a Jojo's perspective.)
After looking monks for a while the perfect stand user to me is a way of sun soul monk, just reflavor the "spell attack" to a ethereal image that punch people and is "kinda magic". But that was before Tasha's, the perfect stand user from my pov now is an echo knight with unarmed fighting style
I'm playing a Way of Mercy monk right now and it's pretty great. I usually burn any remaining ki points I have on healing right before a short rest to save hit dice and with flurry of healing and harm I essentially become a blender, plus I get to constantly use the line, "Trust me, I'm a doctor."
After DMing an Astral Monk for about a year, it hits at LEAST A-tier (if not S-tier) for me because of how versatile it is on a battlefield. The 10 foot reach allows you to stick and move while not provoking opportunity attacks, so freedom of movement alone is a massive plus for everything else it brings to the table. As for Mercy, I'm surprised there hasn't been a healer monk before. It's been a JRPG archetype for decades, and a religious/spiritual one for centuries.
The beauty of the Astral Self is how well it complements the rest of your monk abilities. At no point there's redundancy of skills like with the Shadow Monk and there's a pretty clear order in the action economy of when and how to activate these abilities. Not to mention how sweet it is to finally be able to Shove and Grapple with a monk.
"If you have other healers in your party, you're probably not the best healer on the battlefield..." Hard disagree. The Mercy Monk is one of the best battlefield healers, because of the real lack of opportunity cost in using their heal. Any spellcaster who needs to cast a heal is, at best, burning a slot that could be used for spells that actually affect the battle and at worst is both using their action and burning that slot. Mercy Monk's ability to pick up dropped party members and remove debilitating status effects allows spellcasters to cast better spells aimed at ending the battle. And if healing isn't needed, the Mercy Monk is one of the higher if not the highest DPR monk. No-save Poison makes grappling a nightmare for opponents and provides the Monk an added measure of safety if he needs to dash over to pick up a friend (even without Mobile feat.) Honestly, I think it stands out enough from other Monk subclasses to be S-tier. If you consider the abilities themselves to be near or equal to the Shadow Monk, then the Mercy Monk's better Ki point and action economy pushes it over, in my opinion.
Personally, I think Celestial Warlock could give Mercy Monk a run for its money for very similar reasons. Healing Light has very little opportunity cost to use and can heal a decent chunk of change mid fight, plus Warlocks are solid blasters. Out-of-combat healing will always be stronger in 5e, but the "Healing Word on a stick" of Mercy and Celestial is really underrated.
Way of Mercy is the only monk I have considered playing. I have always loved the power of healing and draining life essence and that's the vibe I get from it.
the automatic poison from Physician's Touch can also be seen as a weaker but more reliable version of stunning strike. there is no saving throw but stunned is stronger then poisoned and more creature are immune to the poisoned condition
well, I'm satisfied with it. immunity to poison might be more common, but its only really undead and fiends. a guaranteed poison on any dragon but the green one, imagine that!
S class is easy, just make up anything overpowered e.g, 'when you take tradition at third level any weapon counts as a monk weapon for you and you're proficient with it, and may make attacks with that weapon using your X mod' along with also at third level 'you can spend a ki point to make any attack you make with a monk weapon a critical hit'. A class would be more interesting, as that actually needs to be balanced.
@@thefandombard4774 i would love to see them rework the lower-tier subclasses to s-tier or even just living up to expectations of how cool they could be
When I saw the Mercy Monk, my initial thoughts were, "this is a great support healer along side Rangers/Paladins/etc so you don't need a Cleric/Druid as a 'full-time healer.'" Which I think is pretty great. The Astral Monk has an amazing initial impact but after hearing about the later abilities, I can see why this received an okay rating.
It really makes a world of difference to have one more party member who can pop allies back up when they go down. Even if you do have a "full-time healer," this preserves their action economy to do more damage or support
This is really the problem with the monk in general. It sounds fun, and it can be fun, but the numbers & limitation on features really drag it through the mud. The ascendant dragon is hot garbage, and it's the newest one introduced. They even NERFED it from the UA. Whoever said the level 11 fwature was broken needs their shins broken for irony's sake.
I swear, monks have it as bad as people think rangers have it bad. Sth I hate about the Mercy monk though, is that the bloody mask is NOT used for anything!
Yeah, I know... I would probably ask my DM if the mask would transform in relation to my emotions. Which while still being basically useless, it would be cooler... But it still doesn't do anything, maybe you can let an Artificer put something into the mask, that would be cool.
And with all the Plague Doctor, Medic and Poison flavor it should AT LEAST make you immune / resistant to poison, acid and/or disease. Monks already have it at higher lvls, so would be something like the Inquisitor Rogue pulling a 1Xth lvl to the lower levels of play and totally ok.
I agree, Rangers would be quite terrible but they get a good amount of flexibility thanks to spellcasting. Monks pretty much get two-three good features and a lot of mediocre garbage, especially at high levels.
For the Astral Self Monk... I feel they missed a big part that matter alot... at level 3 when u start hitting with the astral arms ur unarmed strikes deal force dmg... so u dont realy have to think about res or immunitys any more
@@coranbaker6401 Still 3 more levels of not worrying about resistances and some (although admittedly not very many) monsters are resistant to all bludgeoning, magical or otherwise.
@@georgebennett715 Yeah, but those monsters are things you probably won't encounter at low levels. Overall, it's useful, but not as useful as you might think.
Others have stated that it stops being an advantage after 3 levels, which arguably you probably aren't too worried about before level 6 anyways, but on top of that: For purposes of comparing monk classes - Sun soul, Four Elements, Draconic monks all have reliable ways of getting around resistance. That does not make any of these monks actually good.
@@coranbaker6401 Yeah certainly and don't get me wrong it doesn't redeem the class at all but if you come across a swarm or two you're gonna be thankful that you have force damage. It's not good but I don't think I'd call it bad either, it's just situational and very dependant on what type of enemies you're facing.
I love the new subclasses introduced in Tasha’s, but I completely agree with you guys when you say wotc holds back on the monk. Even a lot of their base features are a bit lack lustered. I hope when this 5.5/6e book comes out, that wotc really give some love to the monk. Give them more ki or a way to gain ki back during combat, increase their martial arts dice, and please fix timeless body and perfect self to actually be useful. I say this as an avid monk player who really wants to see this class shine. Loved the video guys👍
They just need to rework the class honestly but I don't see that happening. I'd propose just making most of their class abilities ki free or allowing them to use their class abilities up to their profiency before needing to burn ki.
I'll be honest, I always thought that their Lv.20 ability should be rolled into their Lv.10 ability, same thing with Sorcerer's and Bard's capstone ability. It's technically not a bad ability...until you realize it is supposed to be the "best thing" their class can possibly get and is meant to represent the culmination of going all the way with their class, their ultimate feature, and it's really underwhelming. Would be a great thing to get at Lv.10, not so much at Lv.20.
The fact that the Fizban's Drake Warden actually got slightly better while Ascendant Dragon got a lot worse isn't helping. I love Rangers but damn, even WotC now likes them more than the poor Monk.
If I could give them one ability, Not sure what I’d call it but the ability runs like this Cost 1 ki point, when you punch a creature with a single punch,let’s you roll a d4 to restore a certain amount of ki Definitely could be broken and needs play test, but I feel like it’s a nice risk reward you may only get 1 ki point back and you’re at net zero, wasting that opportunity for when you could have used stunning strikes or FoB,, but it’s a nice way to try and regain ki
Monk feels like it's trying to cover a lot of concepts and would be better served by mix-and-match progression like the Warlock rather than the 'pick at lvl 3' progression it has currently. Have the martial arts options at lvl 1, pick from a few schools that all add some effect to Flurry of Blows (so you can always be doing your bread-and-butter action while also doing your chosen gimmick) as well as some more focussed stuff at higher levels. Have the 'spiritual' Way choice at lvl 3, this is where the monk-magic comes in and you start picking up your shadow stealth or elemental blasting, again, make sure there's at least one feature that interacts with your Flurry of Blows. Have the headliner powers be standalone, but give Flurry of Blows similar customisability to Eldritch Blast. Spitballing some ideas here: -Mantis School - Your extra attacks from flurry of blows have reach. -Crane School - When you use flurry of blows, until the end of your next turn you may use your reaction to add your Martial Arts dice to your AC against one attack. -Snake School - When you use flurry of blows, you may choose to forego one attack and take it at any time before the end of your next turn. -Tiger School - If you move at least 10ft. in a straight line before making your flurry of blows attacks, these attacks are made with advantage. -Monkey School - You may choose to make grapple attempts with advantage in place of unarmed attacks with your flurry of blows attacks. -Cobra School - You may make your flurry of blows attacks with thrown weapons. Then add in some minor elemental damage/pushes and trips/minor sneak attack damage to those attacks from your Way and you have a solid baseline for monk features that lets you explore a much wider range of concepts without each one needing its own subclass and you're less shoehorned into a specific combat role because you wanted some utility powers (and vice versa).
the reach that you get from astral arms lets you forgo getting the mobile feat or use the disengage action alltogether, saving you room for plenty of options that wouldn't be available usually, and overall maybe even saving you ki points in the long run.
thats why i decided to play a bugbear for my first monk lol. that way i needed neither. then i made the mistake of choosing shadow instead of mercy, well, you never stop learning...
@@mayhemivory5730 Haha. I made a Bugbear Barbarian with a reach weapon and the Polearm Master feat - that boy controlled a lot of space. If I could have given him the Sentinal feat, I would have.
But like... what's stopping them from just, you know, walking up to you on their turn? And it definitely doesnt save you Ki in any shape or form. Because it costs Ki to use. The more combats you enter, the less Ki efficient it becomes.
i like way of mercy bcs its another healer subclass not based on spell, until now, all healer subclasses where based on spells (life domain cleric, celestial warlock, dream domain druid, etc.)
That's the exact reason I chose it for my current character (who might die later tonight, who knows). I wanted to have healing capabilities while also playing something that can fight on the front lines and thus the Mercy monk was chosen
Celestial warlock is not really relying on spells to heal. They don't even get pretty good healing spell but other supporting spell like greater restoration and revivify. The healing feature is the healing light. Which may also be the case for dream domain Druid but druid on it's own have lot's of healing spell option.
I know you don't like talking multiclassing all that much, but you did bring it up some in this video, which I found interesting. I've found that the use of Wisdom for the Astral Self Monk actually combines well with the Druid wildshape, where you're at the mercy of the creature you turn into for Str and Dex otherwise. (Buffing Wisdom also worked out well for my character on his unarmored defense while in wildshape.) And the flavor of looking like a Displacer Beast is a lot of fun.
The Astral Self monk should have been able to grapple with a reach of 10ft to be unique. Doesn't make sense to allow Wisdom modifiers to be used for strength checks and then ignore this thematic attack option.
my biggest beef with them is that if you get to your capstone you can't just shove an enemy and then benefit from the additional attack of that feature. Attacking multiple times with advantage after shoving with wis would be the obvious strategy for such a character
Way of Mercy is the incredibly rare case where every single feature doesn't cost Ki. No really, go read many other Monks and realize how much Ki the others guzzle down.
Kensei monk is pretty economical when it comes to using ki points. 1 ki for a guaranteed extra hit at level 6 or 1-3 ki for a +1-3 for 10 turns at level 11. Otherwise it costs no ki and at level 3 you can jump to your level 17 martial arts die and get a 1d8+1d4 ranged attack if you choose longsword/longbow.
@@vancityband6577 I think Kensei Monk would be appealing in a campaign that doesn't get magical weapons. It's particular folly is that it doesn't properly mesh well if you get a cool weapon you wanna integrate. Which I always found super odd to have that restriction.
way of the open hand monks get one ability that requires ki and doesn't come online until 17th level. way of shadow monks likewise have only a single ability, albeit one with multiple functions. drunken masters and kensei each have two which come on during midgame. sun soul monks have three abilities that can use ki, but only one of them requires it. four elements and the long death's capstone ability are genuine ki sinks, but they've both got a laundry list of issues. The way of mercy monk is arguably one of the worst in terms of the ki cost of their features since until they get flurry of healing and harm, all of their subclass features require use of ki (or using flurry of blows, which also costs ki). every single other subclass save the astral self gains at least one free to use option sooner than that.
Around Half of monk subclasses have half of their features require no ki at all. And almost all have features that don't require additional ki expenditure. Mercy is actually one of the only subclasses that doesn't have completely ki free abilities
Solution for Astral Self: add to the third level feature "When your Astral Arms are present, you can use your Flurry of Blows feature without expending any Ki points if you make both attacks with your Astral Arms". Also maybe make Visage add to the accuracy of Astral Arms' strikes?
New to dnd, absolutely obsessed! You guys are amazing, thank you so much for what you do! Just started your season 2 campaign, I laugh all the time listening to you. Thank you for bringing your depth of experience and also making it accessible. You guys are like hardcore light… other hardcore people just get so mean about stuff, especially monks ;) love you guys! XOXO 😘
Can’t wait to hear what you guys think about the wild magic barbarian. I think it’s an interesting subclass that front loads heavily and massively teeters off at higher levels
I really, really love monks but it breaks my heart to see how WoTC continues to throw out poor subclasses for them. I always want to play one but then I see these other strong classes with even stronger subclasses and feel like I'm never going to contribute as much. I hope someone does a revised monk UA at WoTC at some point to help get the core class on par with the others.
People keep defending it with "Oh but you can do so much out of combat with monks" And while true, that's just ignoring the fact that DND 5th Edition in particular is extremely focused on combat. If I wanted to play a game that wasn't majority combat, I have about 5 systems I'd rather play. DND5 is for combat and monks statistically suck at combat.
I read you. Here is my homebrew. Keep 1d8 if they are double proficiency in two skills. Or go to 1d10. When not wearing armor…. Add Wisdom and Dexterity modifer, and proficiency bonus to attack rolls. Add Strength modifier to damage rolls. They can pick one light martial arts weapon and be proficient. Any weapon picked does 1d8+ Str Modifier damage. You can be proficient with bows, but only use dexterity modifier with attack rolls and damage. They can do any action when unarmed strike and get the bonus action of 1d4.
@@benry007 True. I was mostly refering to people saying "oh our monk did this and that super cool thing", which 99% of the time is not even a class feature but rather the GM handwaving silly things because "monks can do cool stuff"
Playing a Way of Mercy Monk now. Loving it! Set up as a foreign eastern-style physician in a medieval style world who sees his role as judging who deserves to be spared and who deserves to be stricken. Wears mask when it's time to "Judge". Agree with A-tier ranking. Nice review!
The Mercy Monk may not be the best healer in the game, but it's a great secondary healer that offers some extra healing and utility in addition to what makes Monk Monk. Takes some of the stress off your main healer, too, which is always a good thing in my book.
@@5h4d0wBG not just that, its also a. not always on, so you still need DEX sometimes b. uses a bonus action, so you cant use martial arts or flurry c. costs Ki, so you can actually use stunning strike less, even if your save is technically better
@@mayhemivory5730 a>No one is saying Dex isn't important, but it can be de-prioritized for Wis, which in a lot of monk builds goes the other way. b>The bonus action you use to active this is in essence a flurry of blows, but one that has the ability/opportunity to hit multiple enemies at reach. This is a net gain c>Flurry costs Ki, even using the max ki cost for this ability(not count lvl 17) you loose 1 extra Ki Point over a regular Flurry of Blows.
I agree about the astral self Monk. The one simple change that my playgroup made to give it a little buff is we ruled that if your arms can reach 10 ft... then so can you grapple. This made my character into a really fun grapple shenanigans character! Something I learned the hard way though is almost everyone has arranged option so a lot of the times you're just going to end getting shot in the kidneys lmao
Astral self monk can grapple using wisdom, imagine with the grappler feat, sure you get restrained but you’re out of range of non reach melee creatures you’ve restrained. Or just advantage on attacks with a grapple. Just funny niche idea ☺️
if only that where true. sadly, only your punches are at 10 feet. grappling isnt explicitely possible using the arms, so its at the normal range of 5 feet still. unless, of course, I've misunderstood what you mean. rogues are still better grapplers also.
@@vxicepickxv the problem is the arms only "work" during YOUR turn, so basically you grapple (which is still somewhat open to debate), succeed, end your turn -> enemy looses the grapple condition if he's 10 feet from you.
Here's the biggest problem with the monk: stunning strike. Stunning strike is an S+ tier class feature on a C-tier class, so if they make the monk subclasses any better then they would be too good because of Stunning Strike. If Stunning Strike gets nerfed, then monk becomes barely usable. So Stunning Strike is, no pun intended, completely blocking all progress on the monks.
Spot on. It's the Monks greatest tool but ultimately a curse. They're not allowed to do anything more than middling damage, not allowed to really break any boundaries because they have that one ability that's already toeing the line resulting in every single subclass being borderline garbage with a select few exceptions.
I think just upping their hit dice would not make stunning strike too strong and make them more on par with the others for on the frontline. I agree that they have to be careful, however right now Monk is seen as the weakest class. So they can use some buffs.
No. That's not even an excuse for it. Hold Person is a thing. Multiple control abilities/spells exist that are far better than Stunning Strike. It's just not an excuse for monks to be this poorly designed. And definitely not one that should be accepted.
@@R.E.E.D. Well it becomes more broken at higher levels as you can do multiple attempts per turn and is not limited to humanoids. However, I still agree with you monks deserve a buff.
@@Hyde_Hill Multiple attempts of a Saving Throw that targets Constitution. If it didn't have multiple attempts per turn, it would never land. Not being limited to humanoids is also a non-factor when so many other control abilities/spells are not limited to humanoids.
I do feel like the reach of astral self is undervalued. In my games, I’m constantly bouncing around, avoiding opportunity attacks, and getting into cover. My party will be ending a fight with half health, while I come out unharmed. (I certainly would like it to have a boost though)
With everything you guys said about Astral Self, I was surprised you went with B. It really felt like everything you were building up to was to justify giving it a C or D. With the B rank denoting it would be an S in the right campaign, I can’t really think of a campaign where taking this subclass is a better option than any of the A tiers.
Still looking forward to the Barbarian class video. I really hope it comes out soon. Thanks so much for the videos, guys, love it each time I get the notification.
For Astral Self, I really wish using your Wisdom modifier for attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes extended to the monk's weapons as well. It would have made Astral Self a good multiclass dip for Wisdom casters the same way Hexblade does for Charisma and Battle Smith for Intelligence.
Go Bugbear Monk with 1 level of Druid or nature Cleric (or better yet, 2 levels of ranger with Druidic Warrior), take shillelagh or magic stone. Nobody can touch you!
I like way of mercy because of the implication of reviving someone without the need for material components (then again i've never made it that high level in a campaign so i don't know how easy is to "load up" for the stuff revival spells demand.)
As well as the time limit of them being dead for more than 24 hours. So your party probably died in a big fight, and your out of Ki. That’s fine. Take a short rest, and start rezing them one at a time.
We have a way of mercy monk in the campaign I'm cleric in. He has done a fantastic job being backup and support healing while still doing decent damage.
I was hoping for the Ascendant Dragon here, but i'm happy with what we got. Really disappointed with the JoJ.. I mean the Astral Self, and spoiler alert: the Ascendant Dragon sucks
It really does! The UA version was amazing, but they nerfed it to shit in Fizbans for no good reason. Its Especially egregious when the Peace and Twilight Domains exist for an already exceptional base class, but Monks can't get any love. I've lost hype for anything Wizards has been putting out, between the changes in race design ("everyone" lives about a century? Lazy, Wizards), the nonsense they've been doing to spellcasting NPCs, giving us a Beastmaster that just uses a dragon flavor, and now butchering one of the most promising Subclasses they've ever had, I'm convinced Wizards is asleep at the wheel and doesn't care. I'm not very excited for anything they're putting out right now
I almost want to agree with you. I think it *is* a B but it toes the line of dropping to a C. The only thing it offers as far as I can tell is that it's the best monk subclass for grappling. Play variant human, pick up skill expert in athletics, and grapple/shove the shit out of people using your wisdom modifier. If you're not bothered grappling, then it offers almost nothing of value besides the additional 5ft reach. With that in mind though the same can be said of basically every monk subclass, so that really isn't saying much.
Loved the video (as usual) I'd like to point out that for the mercy monk, in the recap before ranking it A, the debuff cleaning was left out. at level 6 I feel like the healing is not the best part about hands of healing anymore. Remove Paralysis, stun, poisoned, blinded, all that and more, guaranteed for one key points would push it to S tier imo
I like that you guys took note of a comment on a previous video and put emphasis on not comparing this to other classes. I didn't have a problem with it personally, but it's nice to see you're listening to your community
Updated tier list (regarding both The Dungeon Dudes and the users): S TIER - Path of the Totem Warrior (Barbarian) - College of Lore (Bard) - Peace Domain (Cleric) - Twilight Domain (Cleric) - Circle of the Moon (Druid) - Battle Master (Fighter) - Echo Knight (Fighter) - Gloom Stalker Conclave (Ranger) - Aberrant Mind (Sorcerer) - Clockwork Soul (Sorcerer) - Divine Soul (Sorcerer) - The Hexblade (Warlock) - School of Divination (Wizard) A+ TIER - Armorer (Artificer) - Life Domain (Cleric) - Rune Knight (Fighter) - Oath of Vengeance (Paladin) - Arcane Trickster (Rogue) - Soulknife (Rogue) - Swashbuckler (Rogue) - The Fiend (Warlock) - The Genie (Warlock) - Bladesinging (Wizard) - Chronurgy Magic (Wizard) A TIER - Artillerist (Artificer) - Battle Smith (Artificer) - Path of the Ancestral Guardian (Barbarian) - Path of the Zealot (Barbarian) - College of Eloquence (Bard) - Forge Domain (Cleric) - Grave Domain (Cleric) - Light Domain (Cleric) - Tempest Domain (Cleric) - Circle of the Shepherd (Druid) - Circle of the Stars (Druid) - Circle of the Wildfire (Druid) - Eldritch Knight (Fighter) - Way of the Open Hand (Monk) - Way of Shadow (Monk) - *Way of Mercy (Monk)* - Oath of the Ancients (Paladin) - Oath of Conquest (Paladin) - Oathbreaker (Paladin) - Beast Master Conclave (TCE) (Ranger) - Horizon Walker Conclave (Ranger) - Swarmkeeper Conclave (Ranger) - Scout (Rogue) - Shadow Magic (Sorcerer) - School of Abjuration (Wizard) - School of Enchantment (Wizard) - Order of Scribes (Wizard) B+ TIER - Cavalier (Fighter) - Psi Warrior (Fighter) - Way of the Kensei (Monk) - *Way of the Astral Self (Monk)* - Oath of Devotion (Paladin) - Oath of Redemption (Paladin) - Oath of the Watchers (Paladin) - Fey Wanderer Conclave (Ranger) - Phantom (Rogue) - Draconic Bloodline (Sorcerer) - Wild Magic (Sorcerer) - The Archfey (Warlock) - The Celestial (Warlock) - The Fathomless (Warlock) - School of Evocation (Wizard) - School of Illusion (Wizard) - School of Necromancy (Wizard) B TIER - Alchemist (Artificer) - Path of the Storm Herald (Barbarian) - College of Glamour (Bard) - College of Valor (Bard) - Nature Domain (Cleric) - Order Domain (Cleric) - Trickery Domain (Cleric) - War Domain (Cleric) - Circle of Dreams (Druid) - Circle of the Land (Druid) - Champion (Fighter) - Samurai (Fighter) - Way of the Long Death (Monk) - Oath of Glory (Paladin) - Hunter Conclave (Ranger) - Assassin (Rogue) - Mastermind (Rogue) - Thief (Rogue) - The Great Old One (Warlock) - School of Conjuration (Wizard) C+ TIER - College of Swords (Bard) - College of Whispers (Bard) - Arcana Domain (Cleric) - Death Domain (Cleric) - Knowledge Domain (Cleric) - Circle of Spores (Druid) - Arcane Archer (Fighter) - Way of the Drunken Master (Monk) - Oath of the Crown (Paladin) - Monster Slayer Conclave (Ranger) - Inquisitive (Rogue) - Storm Sorcery (Sorcerer) - Graviturgy Magic (Wizard) - School of Transmutation (Wizard) - War Magic (Wizard) C TIER - Path of the Battlerager (Barbarian) - Path of the Berserker (Barbarian) - Way of the Sun Soul (Monk) D+ TIER - The Undying (Warlock) D TIER - Banneret/Purple Dragon Knight (Fighter) - Way of the Four Elements (Monk) - Beast Master Conclave (PHB) (Ranger)
There has been so much angry discourse about monk subclasses, so honestly I'm really excited to hear the more fair and positive approach that you Dudes always bring
I dont have time to watch yet, but way of mercy is S tier and i'll fight anyone who says otherwise lol Edit: I've been playing a Reborn Mercy Monk for over a year, across multiple oneshots (keeping in theme with life, death, and rebirth) and I can tell you, this subclass is absolutely insane. the healing is incredible. Consider the fact that your MA die increases size, I've done 2d8+6 healing without worrying about also attacking enemies. Even caster healers have that dilemma of "do I heal, or do I attack?" this monk doesn't have to worry about that. On top of this, you can stun one target, poison another, then heal 1 or 2 allies (or yourself) and I think you're glossing over the free skills and herbalism prof (herbalism allows you to craft healing potions. This subclass is S tier, and you're wrong, I challenge you to Mortal Kombat.
I just have to imagine an Astral Self Goliath Monk, who then transforms in his whole Astral Body... It would probably look extremly intimidating, even if it isn't the best subclass and even if I wouldn't use it, I think it would still be cool.
I really like the “combat medic” feel of the Mercy Monk. The Mercy Monk I’m playing right now is a shady “Doctor” who wears a Guy Fawkes mask (the one V wears in V for Vendetta) and uses a scalpel along with a needle and thread. I went for a more “grounded” approach with the flavoring like the Hand of Healing being described as him using a needle and thread to sew wounds closed, and the disadvantage from the poisoning effect as him simply cutting some important artery or tendon and having the creature be weakened from the blood loss.
I don't understand why they're so conservative with monk subclasses. Even Way of Mercy feels like it could have gotten some of its higher level upgrades to Hand of Harm right at level 3, and then gotten other abilities at higher levels. Like why can't monks just have cool things?
Mercy is currently my main character at lvl10, and my DM had to ass pull me a magic stave from Bahamaut (3D4 damage + firebreath on a nat20) and I'm still MILES behind my party's Paladin/Barbarian/Artificer. I'm great in more RP leaning scenarios, but only because we lack a rogue I get to manage sneaking/movement challenges. But even healing is being covered better by Artificer/Paladin while they also carry tons of raw DPR and utility. If we had a Rogue, I'd be out of the job entirely, bahaha. (All that said, the character is awesome and the campaign is fun, so I'm still having a great time)
@@Bladius_ Feeling you. If I didn't roll good stats (17, 15, 15, 14, 12, 10), I probably would have never considered playing a monk. Fortunately, I was able to roleplay and convince my DM to give me an Eldritch Claw tattoo. It's made playing a monk much more enjoyable than it otherwise could have been.
It's the best monk subclass but look at what other S ranks get and you'll see that it falls short. I'm pretty sure rune knight was an a class and is certainly stronger than mercy.
@@jameshernandez4112 The thing is they are supposed to be ranking these just against other monks and thus as the best monk it would be S tier. It adds game changing abilities to the class (Healing) while still being a good damage dealer and making it a better debuffer.
I still don't think the Way of Mercy meets the S tier criteria. It's the best monk subclass imo, but it doesn't really reach that top echelon of subclasses for me.
Bro monks are arguably the strongest class at lower levels, only challenged by paladin and barbarians. Sure they fall short at high levels with class abilities, and lack raw firepower. But they have such a ridiculous amount of utility and a skill set that provides things that can’t be replicated by any of the other classes.
Playing an Astral Self Monk right now and I honestly don't agree with it being a B but alright. Arms saved me a lot of trouble with the reach and force damage, not to mention it's another set of arms to mess around with things with and it's not your body so it can't be damaged! I climbed a thorned tree that both stung and paralyzed no problem! As for Visage, I only just got it so it only came up once when I got to call BS on a commoner pretending to be a shopkeep (it was pretty funny), but the 120 magical darkvision looks great. I've yet to have the Body and Ascended, but they both look great! Body honestly costs 1 ki point by itself, so it not costing anything but having to activate Arms and Visage as well makes a lot of sense and gives you magical darkvision on top of everything else, and Ascended giving +2 AC and another attack is also awesome, just maybe not 5 ki points awesome.
if you play an astral self monk you should choose a race that can cast darkness, like a half-elf dark elf heritage or a dark elf, this way you can combine that with the astral visage to cast darkness over yourself and still see in that darkness.
The reason Astral Monk feels like that is that it was originally designed to REGAIN Ki points when you defeated enemies (equal to your Wisdom modifier.) This is obviously overpowered so they removed it, but it leaves the Subclass feeling very wasteful and feeling like it's over extended. Frankly I love the visual idea of Astral Monk, but I despise it's Subclass design. It really still feels like it's a rough draft of a better subclass.
Yeah, in a vaccum, its OP but A) it's a lvl 17 power and most importantly B) it's on a 5e Monk. It is okay for the subclass to have some powerful features to balance the weak base. The Open Hand Monk has an Save or Death feature at the same level but you don't see people saying that is an S rank Subclass that need nerfs nowadays? The actual important feature WOTC cut from the Subclass was the free Flurry of blows the Arms had when they were out and the attacks scaled well. Paying 1 ki to have Flurry of blows for the entire fight is amazing and super ki efficient.
@@ruga-ventoj I think my problem is that Ki points don't just represent power, they represent decision making. You can't just fly through ki points because then you won't have the freedom to do so later, when you might really need them. Even at level 17, when monks are pretty busted, taking away decision making to make a strong character is just lazy. I think its normal to disagree with me about that though, no hate. But yeah the old version of Astral Monk was broken for tons of reasons
@@noah509 okay, I see how that distinction came to be, but the problem with 5e Monks is that they have to make those decisions when other classes don't. Barbarian's Unarmored defense is Dex+Con and they have D12 Hit Die. High AC =higher health? No problem, easy pick. Monk Unarmored defense? Dex+Wis and a D8 Hit Die. Higher Ac but lower Health or More Health and low AC? Rogue get Cunning Action to disengage, dash, and hide for only a BA, no limited resource. Monk have to pick to Disengage and dash, or Dodge for 1 ki each and a BA. Rogues get to dart in and out for basically free while the Monk can get maybe one per short rest if they didn't already used the ki or BA for something else. Which in all honesty, is very likely even if you don't use Flurry of blows.
@@ruga-ventoj I get that, but I think thats a problem that should be solved differently than the ki points. Astral Monk can make reach attacks, so they can do a flurry of blows and not have to disengage. They can run in, hit, and run out. That's an interesting solution to the problem, getting rid of the Ki point economy isn't. (Again it was a late game feature, so it still is less relevant at that point.) I agree, Barbarians and Rouges don't really have to make meaningful decisions to be powerful, but they're the some of easiest classes to play. I think what makes the Monk and some of the spellcasters fun to play is that you get a lot more options; and you have a lot more important decisions to make. But yeah the Monk needs some attention to be more usable in the early game. Late game monks are busted though.
@@noah509Hit and run is not an interesting alternative choice. That's plan A even though Monks are kinda bad at it. Astral Self only makes the hit and run a bit safer if the foe doesn't have Reach to opportunity attack. The better interesting choice is to Grapple with the arms but it doesn't read as legal RAW. Look unfortunately, the Ki points and the many features that need Ki points to use is the main problem. The second problem is that martial art damage scales poorly and you can't use martial arts even with light armor, then the third problem is the forced choice between health or ac. Now problem 2 and 3 can be covered by the many Ki features, but because they all run off the same pool, you will run out quick. So what happens if your subclass also asks to use Ki point to use them? That's more mouths to feed with no extra food. Therefore feature that piggyback off of other feature we already using or being ki free make the whole monk deal more enjoyable. Also the choices a spellcaster makes and a monk are VASTLY DIFFERENT. Most of Monk choice is stuck in combat and is mostly between hit more or run away. Spellcaster can choose between combat or social and even then there are many branches in each category. It's like a Warlock and Eldritch Blast. Yes you can choose something else, but it has so many reasons why you would choose it that not picking it is handicapping yourself.
Oh. Astral Self dropped the "regain ki points equal to Wisdom when nearby enemies drop to 0" clause from the unearthed arcana version which made it easily the best Monk subclass, at least for raw deeps.
Astral self is an S-tier for one reason. When you hit 17 and have the full projection out, you can yell 'Za WARUDO!' and attack about 10 times while your target is helpless.
What seems weird to me, is that Mercy Monks can do 2 Hands of Healing when using Flurry of Blows, so by using a Bonus Action, but can only do it one time when they just use the Hands of Healing feature, so by using an Action. Which means punching something, anything, even the air, and then healing two times, costs as much than healing one time, with just a little worse action economy.
The Crusher feat also does wonders for the Mercy monk. Letting you disengage an ally from a tough situation until they're ready to get back into combat.
I haven't looked at this yet, but the idea of multiclassing the Astral Self with Echo Knight is SOOO COOOL and I want to make that happen. I let you know when I do 😊
Having a monk that has another good option beyond stunning strike is worthy S tier. Then you add healing, which recharges on a short rest. Definitely S-tier. All the stories about monk tend revolve around stunning strike, which takes a big hit when fighting a monster immune to stunning strike or even just has a good save. Now you can still be a key player when the DM smiles and says "Immune to stunning strike."
Small thing about how astral sight in Way of the Astral Self monks you missed! "Astral Sight. You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet." Its different to Dark Vision as its not stated to appear in shades of grey or be a different way of perceiving light. It states you see normally as if the world is illuminated to you. Which is insane. I like to imagine its like looking into the Wraith World when putting on the One ring.
First time I read the Mercy Monk it reminded me of the Shadow Sun Ninja from the Tome of Battle (Book of Nine Swords) in 3rd (3.5?) edition. The way they kept switching between Positive Energy Healing and Negative Energy damage during combat...
Yeah, that is not true at all. Your AC is still dependent on your Dex, and an AS-monk is still going to be a frontline fighter with ALL of the normal problems of monks. Ignoring Dex will just make these problems even more potent.
@@gamecavalier3230 - Yeah, I'm currently running a game for a group of friends containing: Stars Druid, Necro Wiz, Lore Bard, Totem Barb & AS Monk. The player running the Monks is (obviously) the least effective at almost everything in the group, but he keeps high spirits, as he loves the monk fantasy (which I don't get). They've just reached level 6, and he has used his Astral arms extremely seldomly, because it just makes no sense, as they scale with the martial arts die (which is to say extremely slowly). Sure force damage is great, but by level 6 most martial classes (not all but most) will have found a magic weapon to bypass res. and guess what... Monks will be right back to subpar damage, subpar defenses and a good control ability targeting the worst saving throw.
I disagree with B for astral self monk. I also feel like you guys skipped out on some of what the subclass does. one thing is the astral fists are force damage, another is that by having 10ft reach the monk can skirmish better by not getting in melee of most enemies. Also why disregard the use of wisdom and say lets just consider a dex max build? the point of that ability is so you can have better ki saves and still have good attacks, maxing dex there is only really boosting your initiative and dex checks, of which check wise I feel wisdom competes on useful skills. The ki point arguements also seem harsh given for one the arms ability does literally the same damage as flurry of blows, possibly to more than the one enemy you would hit, the only negative I can see there is not being able to spam stunning strike 4 times on turn 1. I understand you guys short rest less, but honestly arguing that using 1 extra ki point for most of your abilities including extra damage for all subsequent rounds and possibly into another combat if you don't get to rest thanks to the 10 minute duration. Also shadow monk doesn't have the ability to see in their own darkness, apply that same standard and you can get darkness via a warlock multiclass same as shadow monk or start as a drow or half drow or tiefling to get darkness once a day. The magic item arguement i think is a little overrated, with the martial arts dice scaling as you level for the most part you don't lose a lot of damage by using unarmed strikes, and in terms of magic items monks already have the issue of flurry using unarmed strikes so their magic items are less effective, unless they use the claw tattoo for example which buffs unarmed strikes the same way other +1 weapons do, plus unless my reading is wrong they would have a 20ft reach with an eldritch claw tattoo. Overall this monk adds damage post 11, better than most monk classes, at a cheaper ki value than most other subclasses, does force damage and with the reach they can skirmish without taking opportunity attacks without needing mobile or a bonus action to disengage. And in terms of your rankings? I don't think this is a niche pick. A lot of subclasses for monk are very subpar, but I wouldn't say this is worse than kensei, shadow or open hand. Any game this goes in for a monk subclass it seems a good option. if anything was going to be B with criticism for ki point usage it would be kensei imo.
One thing that gets overlooked when considering the Astral Self is that the arms/visage/body last for ten minutes. While this would rarely translate into two combats, what it does do is make you a really resourceful person in exploration. And while the cost feels high in terms of Ki, once active, it stays active. Until you get to 11th level in Way of Mercy, you’re likely spending 2 ki or more per turn, so the one ki cost for the arms isn’t actually all that much. I’m not arguing that it’s “S” tier, but I do think it’s “A”.
I expected the Dungeon Dudes to rate Astral Self lower. Based on Sun Soul monk being in D-tier, and Astral Self having some parallels to Sun Soul (giving reach), I was expecting Astral Self to also be a D-tier, or maybe C-tier, cause it's a little better than Sun Soul. Being in the same tier as Long Death is really weird to me. Long Death at 3rd level gets an ability that doesn't cost ki, and again at 6th level gets an ability that doesn't cost ki. At 11th level they get an ability that costs ki, but is definitely worth the ki when you're knocked to 0 HP.
Well, Astral Self allows for focusing your build towards having the best Stunning Strike of all monks thanks to the maxed out Wisdom, to start with? :) You can grapple (at 10 feet too I think) just as well as the other martials before pummeling them some more at advantage. You can stand behind the tank of your team and safely wail on opponents thanks to your reach, which improves your survivability too. There's a few situationally useful abilities for in and out of combat, like Astral Face for interrogations, for example, or seeing in the dark (through magical darkness) at great distance which is nice for races without darkvision, etc. It'd be better of it was a tad less Ki consuming but well...
@@zTom_ Astral self definitely leans hard on ki conservation. Having that ki left for when you really need to call out your stand is game defining. If your game regularly has very few encounters or excessive rests, it's free real estate and a solid A tier. With serious party synergy and, say, multiclass slightly into barbarian for rage or even reckless attack, maybe have armor from being a dwarf or your first level having been barb, it "can be S tier in the right campaign." Personally, 3 levels barb for ancestral guardians and Astral monk the rest is hilariously good. Only issue is the usual with multiclassing, martials need to hit level 5 on-time. Oh right, and for some God forsaken reason unarmed damage dice scale off monk levels. As if that'd be more busted than cantrips scaling to player level. Martials and short-rest dependent classes both got shafted, and monk got the worst of both *and* a damage die issue.
@@zTom_ "Well, Astral Self allows for focusing your build towards having the best Stunning Strike of all monks thanks to the maxed out Wisdom, to start with?" You can max out wisdom with any monk subclass, and they would have the exact same stunning strike. Assuming you have decided to make a WIS monk, what astral self seems to offer is more damage. But...after I ran the numbers it was really not much more damage. Even if you max out wisdom and not DEX, if you get a good magic weapon, it's often more damage for an astral self to attack with the DEX magic weapon than attack with the WIS punches, despite having more WIS than DEX. You still sometimes punch with your bonus action, so it's still a small damage gain for a WIS monk. But over a combat it might be spending 1 ki to deal 4 damage. Eh, not actually a great expenditure of ki. "You can grapple (at 10 feet too I think)" No, you can't grapple at 10 feet. RAW you can only make unarmed strikes with your astral arms. While the feature is active you can use your regular arms to grapple, and use your WIS instead of STR for the athletics check--thats what the feature allows. If your character concept involves a monk that does a lot of grapples and throws, maybe they're a Judo master, this lets you make that character. So that's good--it's something monk didn't necessarily have (although some DMs will let monks make DEX athletics checks for grapples, and the DMG does allow them to sub in DEX here; but not every DM will do this). But....is Astral Self's grappling strong enough to shift where a subclass is placed on the tier list? I don't think this is all that strong. Usually grapple builds want to gain expertise in athletics, gain advantage in athletics, and/or grow to large size so they can grapple more things. Think rune knight. Astral Self would need to multiclass for that kind of stuff. Grapple builds also usually want to be pretty tanky, cause when you grapple a creature, that creature is going to hit you. Monks with their d8 hit points are not tanky. So...my overall opinion on the grappling is nice for theme builds if you have a stingy DM, but shouldn't really bump up the tier of Astral Self. "You can stand behind the tank of your team and safely wail on opponents thanks to your reach, which improves your survivability too." Yeah, reach can be useful. Reach is the most impactful thing Astral Self gets out of their level 3 feature IMO. But the comparison was to sun soul monk, who also gets a form of reach. (If you're curious, I think the second most impactful thing Astral Self gets out of their 3rd level feature is force damage, which can bypass damage resistances levels 3-5, but after level 6 doesn't really matter cause monks can already bypass resistances at level 6). "There's a few situationally useful abilities for in and out of combat, like Astral Face for interrogations, for example" These aspects of, astral face are basically the Thaumaturgy cantrip and the Message cantrip. Except instead of being free and available at level 1, they cost ki and are available at level 6. You might find uses for them, sure, but it's a bit like Purple Dragon Knight getting persuasion at level 7. "or seeing in the dark (through magical darkness) at great distance" This is probably the most impactful thing they get at level 6, yeah. Can work ok on a monk archer--most enemies have 60 foot darkvision, if you stand at 120 feet you can see them and they can't see you, so you gain advantage to hit them. Can pair well with the sharpshooter feat. Pretty situational, though. Need darkness, which you can't produce yourself. And probably an outdoors environment and not a dungeon so that you can get 120 feet of space between you and the enemy. And it's more impactful for monks with some focus on archery (so...that'd be a DEX build). > It'd be better of it was a tad less Ki consuming but well... I agree, if all of astral self's abilities cost 0 ki, it would make the subclass quite a bit better. Probably not the best monk even with that change, but pretty good. The fact that you need to spend ki on this stuff is what makes me think it's C or D tier. Like...you could spend that ki on stunning strike and focused aim instead, and in a lot of situations that will be better.
Martial Arts (And maybe even Flurry) should have gotten upgraded to include an extra strike if Arms are out. Itd still be Ki hungry but it would be semi palatable.
You are grossly overlooking the fact that it deals Force damage IN ALL ATTACKS. Also, no need for mobile with range, SAD Wis (great Stunning Strike, which is extremely powerful), plus great grappling (Wis for Athletics). Seriously, this is S Tier.
if the 5 extra feet reach was so good just play a wood elf for 35 base movement speed, 3 levels later and your unarmed attacks are magical anyway, sure you can level wis but you also still need high dex for AC it just gives you the option to raise wis first, sure you can grapple but you still have a d8 hit die and it takes away the monks main benefit of being mobile (leave grappling to the fighter or barbarian who is built for it), and all of that is reliant on you having spent ki points to use your arms. its not a good subclass, it was ok as a UA but even then it wasnt great until 17th level. official is just......meh.
@@kuroshinigami9143 You do realize that the "mere" extra 5 ft give you the Mobile feat for free against any creature that does not have over 5 ft of range, right? You're also ignoring the fact that increasing WIS first increases your chance to Stun someone, which is the only so-good-it's-broken feature the monk has (because it lasts until the END of the Monk's next turn, allowing him to keep someone locked down should they fail enough)
I feel like the force damage of Astral self isn't being considered enough. Its the best damage type period and monk has that unique problem of finding magic items to augment their damage because of how monk just *work* in 5e.
i think the damage type isnt really the problem. you dont face that issue early on, and from level 6 you're good to go. the real issue is that all the interesting effects are on swords, and there are like 2 low level items that do anything to improve unarmed strikes damage wise.
Brooch of Shielding is a very low level magic item that a lich or evil wizard could incorporate reducing the effectiveness of the monk. Smart villians plan ahead.
@@xandosreign Yeah, this is what I'm thinking every time I see someone say that dealing force damage is a good thing. Truthfully, it's not. Doing a damage type other than magical physical is actually terrible for the simple reason that it's not very hard to go out and find some way to gain resistance if not outright immunity to it. Resisting magical physical damage is a lot harder.
Now after watching the video I’m a little sad about the Astral self monk. Like, I’m not an anime fan myself, but I thought about Neji on the first naruto anime where the guy hits in all directions 72 times with his palms, but the taxing though… and what about making it like one of those Barbarians with the spirits of their ancestors? Like this monk could’ve summoned a spirit or something like that giving more actions and stuff. It’s just like … bro :(
I just started a strahd campaign, I’m playing a deurgar mercy monk who was trained as a slave to drow before breaking out to the surface, now working as a traveling herbalism doctor with chi points healing and a few spells (MI feat) flavored as naruto hand signs. Needless to say this video helped a lot with my choices going forward. Thanks!
How would the Astral Self monk go with a tortle PC though? Could you just hunker down in your shell while you shell everyone around you with a ton of punches? Ultimate defense plus decent offense.
Unfortunately, the shell does say that while hiding in your shell, the only action you can take is to emerge. Your DM could rule differently, but that's RAW.
Guys...monks are insanely powerful both in combat and exploration. I dunno what happened to me you think they're lackluster but I'd recommend giving them another chance. They're meant to work within a party as a battlefield controller. Monks are amazing.
The Mercy Monk feels like a discount Kenshiro (ftom Fist of the North Star). The head-exploding punches are so iconic that people forget Kenshiro could alsi use pressure points to heal others and even control their actions (though the healing was used so rarely I don't blame people for not remembering it). Mercy Monk feels like they got a weaksauce version of the 'scramble the other guy's internal organs/mess up their ki with a tap' trick in exchange for better healing. Or maybe a variation of the Gentle Fist from Naruto. Honestly, as good as it is, it feels like its missing something. Maybe something like Chi Blocking from AtLA, where the enemy can't use spells or certain abilities for a while or the targeted limb is temporarily disabled.
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Love the Astral Self Monk Subclas! :) Regards from Tabasco, México [Land of The Olmecs]!
I gotta disagree on the Astral Self Monk, it's bad, at LV 3 you get effectively just a reach weapon, a pitiful aoe and less MADness at the cost of ki and since the arms deal martial arts damage you're gonna be using a d4 until you get to level 5, at LV 6 with the Visage you're getting a dark vision you can't capitalize on, better insight, intimidation which you probably don't have much use for as a monk, and a ribbon feature, it's at lv11 that you get the first true upgrade.
I'd have moved Mercy into S tier. You get three additional proficiencies to give you more to do in social situations and can heal people without needing divine power. You deal more damage than most monks, can heal to save party members in a pinch and have irresistible poison on a stick (for free at 11th) so that even if your stuns don't land the target is depowered. And the healing coming back with ki on a short rest means you can top the party up for free; sure the party might have a healer but it's likely they need a long rest to get spells back, Mercy monk means they get to use more spells for not being a healbot.
I see the Mercy Monk as a military doctor who rushes into the battlefield to quickly pick up allies. Just writing that sentence makes me want to make a character around that concept.
I was looking at this and was like what background would it be. Oh, battlefield, as in soldier.
Battlefield medic... Like Hacksaw Ridge, only you would also fight.
Reminds of a quote from an older comic. The person goes "I'm a combat medic I patch people up so that they can get back into the fight."
This is the subclass that let's you play as the MC from the wrong way of healing where he punches people with healing magic. I like it.
The Mercy monk made me think of an order rather similar to the House of Black and White from GoT.
But Military doctor is also interesting.
Sorry everyone, but for me Way of the Astral Self is no Doctor Strange at all. It is, forever, a JoJo monk who summons a Stand. And that's all
I thought this was how most people looked at it. They designed it as "Punching Ghosts". You aren't trying to ever using anything except your stand, so the class is perfectly designed. But if you don't get the references then it's just a monk class where your monk doesn't actually get to attack (which is obviously the point from a Jojo's perspective.)
I actually think way of the astral self is more like susanoo than a stand. I think echo knight actually fits more like jojo than this subclass.
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
After looking monks for a while the perfect stand user to me is a way of sun soul monk, just reflavor the "spell attack" to a ethereal image that punch people and is "kinda magic". But that was before Tasha's, the perfect stand user from my pov now is an echo knight with unarmed fighting style
Yare yare daze
I'm playing a Way of Mercy monk right now and it's pretty great. I usually burn any remaining ki points I have on healing right before a short rest to save hit dice and with flurry of healing and harm I essentially become a blender, plus I get to constantly use the line, "Trust me, I'm a doctor."
After DMing an Astral Monk for about a year, it hits at LEAST A-tier (if not S-tier) for me because of how versatile it is on a battlefield. The 10 foot reach allows you to stick and move while not provoking opportunity attacks, so freedom of movement alone is a massive plus for everything else it brings to the table. As for Mercy, I'm surprised there hasn't been a healer monk before. It's been a JRPG archetype for decades, and a religious/spiritual one for centuries.
Can't wait to hear your thoughts on the Dragon Monk from Fizban's coming out next week! (It looks bad lol)
Seeing Ascendant Monk nearly made me reach for booze. Wizards why?
I don't understand Wizards, they made a good and fun UA and then nerf it for no reason.
It IS bad. Fuck that shit, thank goodness the UA is available as well.
I hope the ranger sub class will be fun cause RIP dragon monk
I really dont understand how Wizards managed to fuck up the same archtype TWICE in the same f'ing Edition.
The beauty of the Astral Self is how well it complements the rest of your monk abilities. At no point there's redundancy of skills like with the Shadow Monk and there's a pretty clear order in the action economy of when and how to activate these abilities. Not to mention how sweet it is to finally be able to Shove and Grapple with a monk.
"If you have other healers in your party, you're probably not the best healer on the battlefield..." Hard disagree. The Mercy Monk is one of the best battlefield healers, because of the real lack of opportunity cost in using their heal. Any spellcaster who needs to cast a heal is, at best, burning a slot that could be used for spells that actually affect the battle and at worst is both using their action and burning that slot. Mercy Monk's ability to pick up dropped party members and remove debilitating status effects allows spellcasters to cast better spells aimed at ending the battle. And if healing isn't needed, the Mercy Monk is one of the higher if not the highest DPR monk. No-save Poison makes grappling a nightmare for opponents and provides the Monk an added measure of safety if he needs to dash over to pick up a friend (even without Mobile feat.)
Honestly, I think it stands out enough from other Monk subclasses to be S-tier. If you consider the abilities themselves to be near or equal to the Shadow Monk, then the Mercy Monk's better Ki point and action economy pushes it over, in my opinion.
No
What a sigma response
And clearly, they never see 2 Medics in Starcraft, literally healing each other until they run out of energy, good for big group
@@cheddarcheese4159 sigma balls
Personally, I think Celestial Warlock could give Mercy Monk a run for its money for very similar reasons. Healing Light has very little opportunity cost to use and can heal a decent chunk of change mid fight, plus Warlocks are solid blasters. Out-of-combat healing will always be stronger in 5e, but the "Healing Word on a stick" of Mercy and Celestial is really underrated.
The ultimate battle: Stands Vs Hamon
In this case Hamon wins because Stands can't Ora Ora here. SIGH
Echo Knight is a better STANDO TSUKAI than Astral Monk
Way of Mercy is the only monk I have considered playing. I have always loved the power of healing and draining life essence and that's the vibe I get from it.
Yup same, I have a list of characters I want to play and the only monk ever to get close to being on that list is a tabaxi way of mercy monk.
It's the only monk that's even any good too sadly. Even the new dragon monk is pretty white, which sucks because it had such great potential.
the automatic poison from Physician's Touch can also be seen as a weaker but more reliable version of stunning strike. there is no saving throw but stunned is stronger then poisoned and more creature are immune to the poisoned condition
well, I'm satisfied with it. immunity to poison might be more common, but its only really undead and fiends. a guaranteed poison on any dragon but the green one, imagine that!
I've waited almost a year for this video!
I love Monks, hope they get some more abilities
I would be very interested to see you guys make up an S tier Monk subclass. Maybe in a little mini video?
Honestly! I'm soo interested in what d&d content makers can come up with.
S class is easy, just make up anything overpowered e.g, 'when you take tradition at third level any weapon counts as a monk weapon for you and you're proficient with it, and may make attacks with that weapon using your X mod' along with also at third level 'you can spend a ki point to make any attack you make with a monk weapon a critical hit'. A class would be more interesting, as that actually needs to be balanced.
Instead of a new monk rework the 4 elements to be an s class
@@thefandombard4774 now to find a way to share my attempt...
@@thefandombard4774 i would love to see them rework the lower-tier subclasses to s-tier or even just living up to expectations of how cool they could be
an astral self monk bugbear can have a reach of like, 15 feet with unarmed strikes wich is crazy.
When I saw the Mercy Monk, my initial thoughts were, "this is a great support healer along side Rangers/Paladins/etc so you don't need a Cleric/Druid as a 'full-time healer.'" Which I think is pretty great. The Astral Monk has an amazing initial impact but after hearing about the later abilities, I can see why this received an okay rating.
It really makes a world of difference to have one more party member who can pop allies back up when they go down. Even if you do have a "full-time healer," this preserves their action economy to do more damage or support
This is really the problem with the monk in general. It sounds fun, and it can be fun, but the numbers & limitation on features really drag it through the mud. The ascendant dragon is hot garbage, and it's the newest one introduced. They even NERFED it from the UA. Whoever said the level 11 fwature was broken needs their shins broken for irony's sake.
Yup! My party had a Sword Bard and a Mercy Monk and between the two they managed to keep everyone on their feet
Dungeon Dudes, I must say that I’m impressed with the video subsection titles you added to the fast-forward scroller. Very intuitive
I swear, monks have it as bad as people think rangers have it bad. Sth I hate about the Mercy monk though, is that the bloody mask is NOT used for anything!
Pretty much role playing only. Could add a nice intimidation factor, or a secret organization in your game, but yeah, not much else.
@@1rotzy only thing I can see is pairing it up with that masked vigilante background
Yeah, I know...
I would probably ask my DM if the mask would transform in relation to my emotions. Which while still being basically useless, it would be cooler... But it still doesn't do anything, maybe you can let an Artificer put something into the mask, that would be cool.
And with all the Plague Doctor, Medic and Poison flavor it should AT LEAST make you immune / resistant to poison, acid and/or disease.
Monks already have it at higher lvls, so would be something like the Inquisitor Rogue pulling a 1Xth lvl to the lower levels of play and totally ok.
I agree, Rangers would be quite terrible but they get a good amount of flexibility thanks to spellcasting. Monks pretty much get two-three good features and a lot of mediocre garbage, especially at high levels.
For the Astral Self Monk... I feel they missed a big part that matter alot... at level 3 when u start hitting with the astral arms ur unarmed strikes deal force dmg... so u dont realy have to think about res or immunitys any more
Most Monks don't have to worry about that either once their fists become magical at level 6. It's only a big change against Barbarians.
@@coranbaker6401 Still 3 more levels of not worrying about resistances and some (although admittedly not very many) monsters are resistant to all bludgeoning, magical or otherwise.
@@georgebennett715
Yeah, but those monsters are things you probably won't encounter at low levels. Overall, it's useful, but not as useful as you might think.
Others have stated that it stops being an advantage after 3 levels, which arguably you probably aren't too worried about before level 6 anyways, but on top of that:
For purposes of comparing monk classes - Sun soul, Four Elements, Draconic monks all have reliable ways of getting around resistance. That does not make any of these monks actually good.
@@coranbaker6401 Yeah certainly and don't get me wrong it doesn't redeem the class at all but if you come across a swarm or two you're gonna be thankful that you have force damage. It's not good but I don't think I'd call it bad either, it's just situational and very dependant on what type of enemies you're facing.
"Why does this Mercy monk in the art have a mask, is that a mistake?" "Anyway, the Mercy monks all get a mask..."
I love the new subclasses introduced in Tasha’s, but I completely agree with you guys when you say wotc holds back on the monk. Even a lot of their base features are a bit lack lustered.
I hope when this 5.5/6e book comes out, that wotc really give some love to the monk. Give them more ki or a way to gain ki back during combat, increase their martial arts dice, and please fix timeless body and perfect self to actually be useful.
I say this as an avid monk player who really wants to see this class shine.
Loved the video guys👍
They just need to rework the class honestly but I don't see that happening. I'd propose just making most of their class abilities ki free or allowing them to use their class abilities up to their profiency before needing to burn ki.
I'll be honest, I always thought that their Lv.20 ability should be rolled into their Lv.10 ability, same thing with Sorcerer's and Bard's capstone ability.
It's technically not a bad ability...until you realize it is supposed to be the "best thing" their class can possibly get and is meant to represent the culmination of going all the way with their class, their ultimate feature, and it's really underwhelming. Would be a great thing to get at Lv.10, not so much at Lv.20.
The fact that the Fizban's Drake Warden actually got slightly better while Ascendant Dragon got a lot worse isn't helping. I love Rangers but damn, even WotC now likes them more than the poor Monk.
If I could give them one ability, Not sure what I’d call it but the ability runs like this
Cost 1 ki point, when you punch a creature with a single punch,let’s you roll a d4 to restore a certain amount of ki
Definitely could be broken and needs play test, but I feel like it’s a nice risk reward you may only get 1 ki point back and you’re at net zero, wasting that opportunity for when you could have used stunning strikes or FoB,, but it’s a nice way to try and regain ki
Monk feels like it's trying to cover a lot of concepts and would be better served by mix-and-match progression like the Warlock rather than the 'pick at lvl 3' progression it has currently. Have the martial arts options at lvl 1, pick from a few schools that all add some effect to Flurry of Blows (so you can always be doing your bread-and-butter action while also doing your chosen gimmick) as well as some more focussed stuff at higher levels. Have the 'spiritual' Way choice at lvl 3, this is where the monk-magic comes in and you start picking up your shadow stealth or elemental blasting, again, make sure there's at least one feature that interacts with your Flurry of Blows. Have the headliner powers be standalone, but give Flurry of Blows similar customisability to Eldritch Blast.
Spitballing some ideas here:
-Mantis School - Your extra attacks from flurry of blows have reach.
-Crane School - When you use flurry of blows, until the end of your next turn you may use your reaction to add your Martial Arts dice to your AC against one attack.
-Snake School - When you use flurry of blows, you may choose to forego one attack and take it at any time before the end of your next turn.
-Tiger School - If you move at least 10ft. in a straight line before making your flurry of blows attacks, these attacks are made with advantage.
-Monkey School - You may choose to make grapple attempts with advantage in place of unarmed attacks with your flurry of blows attacks.
-Cobra School - You may make your flurry of blows attacks with thrown weapons.
Then add in some minor elemental damage/pushes and trips/minor sneak attack damage to those attacks from your Way and you have a solid baseline for monk features that lets you explore a much wider range of concepts without each one needing its own subclass and you're less shoehorned into a specific combat role because you wanted some utility powers (and vice versa).
the reach that you get from astral arms lets you forgo getting the mobile feat or use the disengage action alltogether, saving you room for plenty of options that wouldn't be available usually, and overall maybe even saving you ki points in the long run.
Yeah I agree. Less need to consider Ki-Disengage if you punch at reach.
thats why i decided to play a bugbear for my first monk lol. that way i needed neither. then i made the mistake of choosing shadow instead of mercy, well, you never stop learning...
@@mayhemivory5730 I could see Astral Self bugbear monks being amazing because of the 15 foot reach.
@@mayhemivory5730 Haha. I made a Bugbear Barbarian with a reach weapon and the Polearm Master feat - that boy controlled a lot of space. If I could have given him the Sentinal feat, I would have.
But like... what's stopping them from just, you know, walking up to you on their turn?
And it definitely doesnt save you Ki in any shape or form. Because it costs Ki to use. The more combats you enter, the less Ki efficient it becomes.
I feel with how overloaded Cleric is at level 1, Astral dipping 1 level in some domain has to be at least deece.
i like way of mercy bcs its another healer subclass not based on spell, until now, all healer subclasses where based on spells (life domain cleric, celestial warlock, dream domain druid, etc.)
Same
That's the exact reason I chose it for my current character (who might die later tonight, who knows). I wanted to have healing capabilities while also playing something that can fight on the front lines and thus the Mercy monk was chosen
What about like... Paladins
Celestial warlock is not really relying on spells to heal. They don't even get pretty good healing spell but other supporting spell like greater restoration and revivify. The healing feature is the healing light. Which may also be the case for dream domain Druid but druid on it's own have lot's of healing spell option.
I know you don't like talking multiclassing all that much, but you did bring it up some in this video, which I found interesting. I've found that the use of Wisdom for the Astral Self Monk actually combines well with the Druid wildshape, where you're at the mercy of the creature you turn into for Str and Dex otherwise. (Buffing Wisdom also worked out well for my character on his unarmored defense while in wildshape.) And the flavor of looking like a Displacer Beast is a lot of fun.
The Astral Self monk should have been able to grapple with a reach of 10ft to be unique. Doesn't make sense to allow Wisdom modifiers to be used for strength checks and then ignore this thematic attack option.
my biggest beef with them is that if you get to your capstone you can't just shove an enemy and then benefit from the additional attack of that feature.
Attacking multiple times with advantage after shoving with wis would be the obvious strategy for such a character
Way of Mercy is the incredibly rare case where every single feature doesn't cost Ki. No really, go read many other Monks and realize how much Ki the others guzzle down.
Kensei monk is pretty economical when it comes to using ki points. 1 ki for a guaranteed extra hit at level 6 or 1-3 ki for a +1-3 for 10 turns at level 11. Otherwise it costs no ki and at level 3 you can jump to your level 17 martial arts die and get a 1d8+1d4 ranged attack if you choose longsword/longbow.
@@vancityband6577 I think Kensei Monk would be appealing in a campaign that doesn't get magical weapons. It's particular folly is that it doesn't properly mesh well if you get a cool weapon you wanna integrate. Which I always found super odd to have that restriction.
I wish you had a way to gain ki easier without rest ore waiting reaching level 20
way of the open hand monks get one ability that requires ki and doesn't come online until 17th level. way of shadow monks likewise have only a single ability, albeit one with multiple functions. drunken masters and kensei each have two which come on during midgame. sun soul monks have three abilities that can use ki, but only one of them requires it. four elements and the long death's capstone ability are genuine ki sinks, but they've both got a laundry list of issues.
The way of mercy monk is arguably one of the worst in terms of the ki cost of their features since until they get flurry of healing and harm, all of their subclass features require use of ki (or using flurry of blows, which also costs ki). every single other subclass save the astral self gains at least one free to use option sooner than that.
Around Half of monk subclasses have half of their features require no ki at all. And almost all have features that don't require additional ki expenditure. Mercy is actually one of the only subclasses that doesn't have completely ki free abilities
Solution for Astral Self: add to the third level feature "When your Astral Arms are present, you can use your Flurry of Blows feature without expending any Ki points if you make both attacks with your Astral Arms". Also maybe make Visage add to the accuracy of Astral Arms' strikes?
I've been playing a Warforged Way of Mercy Monk on Saturdays & I love them so much - it was so validating to hear y'all gush about that subclass
New to dnd, absolutely obsessed! You guys are amazing, thank you so much for what you do! Just started your season 2 campaign, I laugh all the time listening to you. Thank you for bringing your depth of experience and also making it accessible. You guys are like hardcore light… other hardcore people just get so mean about stuff, especially monks ;) love you guys! XOXO 😘
Can’t wait to hear what you guys think about the wild magic barbarian. I think it’s an interesting subclass that front loads heavily and massively teeters off at higher levels
I really, really love monks but it breaks my heart to see how WoTC continues to throw out poor subclasses for them. I always want to play one but then I see these other strong classes with even stronger subclasses and feel like I'm never going to contribute as much. I hope someone does a revised monk UA at WoTC at some point to help get the core class on par with the others.
People keep defending it with "Oh but you can do so much out of combat with monks"
And while true, that's just ignoring the fact that DND 5th Edition in particular is extremely focused on combat.
If I wanted to play a game that wasn't majority combat, I have about 5 systems I'd rather play.
DND5 is for combat and monks statistically suck at combat.
I read you.
Here is my homebrew.
Keep 1d8 if they are double proficiency in two skills.
Or go to 1d10.
When not wearing armor….
Add Wisdom and Dexterity modifer, and proficiency bonus to attack rolls.
Add Strength modifier to damage rolls.
They can pick one light martial arts weapon and be proficient. Any weapon picked does 1d8+ Str Modifier damage.
You can be proficient with bows, but only use dexterity modifier with attack rolls and damage.
They can do any action when unarmed strike and get the bonus action of 1d4.
You can do fine as a monk, trust me, the strength difference is there but is much smaller than most make it out to be
@@cptKamina can a monk do loads out of combat? They don't even get extra skills like a rogue or ranger.
@@benry007 True. I was mostly refering to people saying "oh our monk did this and that super cool thing", which 99% of the time is not even a class feature but rather the GM handwaving silly things because "monks can do cool stuff"
Playing a Way of Mercy Monk now. Loving it! Set up as a foreign eastern-style physician in a medieval style world who sees his role as judging who deserves to be spared and who deserves to be stricken. Wears mask when it's time to "Judge". Agree with A-tier ranking. Nice review!
*uses flurry to hit enemy and heal
Dm:how does your heal look?
Me: I back hand the fighters face.
The Mercy Monk may not be the best healer in the game, but it's a great secondary healer that offers some extra healing and utility in addition to what makes Monk Monk. Takes some of the stress off your main healer, too, which is always a good thing in my book.
The astral self monk removes some of the MADness of the monk class. If wisdom is your to hit and save dc stat you're in a good spot.
Dex is still your AC stat is the problem
@@5h4d0wBG so is Wisome for the monk :)
@@erwinhaidle9977 So still needs Wis AND Dex
@@5h4d0wBG not just that, its also
a. not always on, so you still need DEX sometimes
b. uses a bonus action, so you cant use martial arts or flurry
c. costs Ki, so you can actually use stunning strike less, even if your save is technically better
@@mayhemivory5730
a>No one is saying Dex isn't important, but it can be de-prioritized for Wis, which in a lot of monk builds goes the other way.
b>The bonus action you use to active this is in essence a flurry of blows, but one that has the ability/opportunity to hit multiple enemies at reach. This is a net gain
c>Flurry costs Ki, even using the max ki cost for this ability(not count lvl 17) you loose 1 extra Ki Point over a regular Flurry of Blows.
Been waiting on this analysis. Y'all always consider things I miss. Well done. Damn shame there aren't any obviously, undisputed S tier monks
I agree about the astral self Monk. The one simple change that my playgroup made to give it a little buff is we ruled that if your arms can reach 10 ft... then so can you grapple. This made my character into a really fun grapple shenanigans character! Something I learned the hard way though is almost everyone has arranged option so a lot of the times you're just going to end getting shot in the kidneys lmao
Astral self monk can grapple using wisdom, imagine with the grappler feat, sure you get restrained but you’re out of range of non reach melee creatures you’ve restrained. Or just advantage on attacks with a grapple. Just funny niche idea ☺️
if only that where true. sadly, only your punches are at 10 feet. grappling isnt explicitely possible using the arms, so its at the normal range of 5 feet still.
unless, of course, I've misunderstood what you mean. rogues are still better grapplers also.
@@mayhemivory5730 grapple is a melee attack, so a bugbear would have 10 feet and then easily attack at range.
Grappler is terrible. Just make a fighter and push. Now they are at disadvantage and you have advantage. One more reason not to play a monk.
@@vxicepickxv the problem is the arms only "work" during YOUR turn, so basically you grapple (which is still somewhat open to debate), succeed, end your turn -> enemy looses the grapple condition if he's 10 feet from you.
@@vxicepickxv astral arms specify unarmed strikes, which means no weapons (less damage) and no special melee attacks (so no grapple/shove)
Here's the biggest problem with the monk: stunning strike. Stunning strike is an S+ tier class feature on a C-tier class, so if they make the monk subclasses any better then they would be too good because of Stunning Strike. If Stunning Strike gets nerfed, then monk becomes barely usable. So Stunning Strike is, no pun intended, completely blocking all progress on the monks.
Spot on. It's the Monks greatest tool but ultimately a curse. They're not allowed to do anything more than middling damage, not allowed to really break any boundaries because they have that one ability that's already toeing the line resulting in every single subclass being borderline garbage with a select few exceptions.
I think just upping their hit dice would not make stunning strike too strong and make them more on par with the others for on the frontline. I agree that they have to be careful, however right now Monk is seen as the weakest class. So they can use some buffs.
No. That's not even an excuse for it. Hold Person is a thing. Multiple control abilities/spells exist that are far better than Stunning Strike. It's just not an excuse for monks to be this poorly designed. And definitely not one that should be accepted.
@@R.E.E.D. Well it becomes more broken at higher levels as you can do multiple attempts per turn and is not limited to humanoids. However, I still agree with you monks deserve a buff.
@@Hyde_Hill
Multiple attempts of a Saving Throw that targets Constitution. If it didn't have multiple attempts per turn, it would never land.
Not being limited to humanoids is also a non-factor when so many other control abilities/spells are not limited to humanoids.
I do feel like the reach of astral self is undervalued.
In my games, I’m constantly bouncing around, avoiding opportunity attacks, and getting into cover.
My party will be ending a fight with half health, while I come out unharmed.
(I certainly would like it to have a boost though)
With everything you guys said about Astral Self, I was surprised you went with B. It really felt like everything you were building up to was to justify giving it a C or D.
With the B rank denoting it would be an S in the right campaign, I can’t really think of a campaign where taking this subclass is a better option than any of the A tiers.
WoAS + moon druid. Broken strong character
Still looking forward to the Barbarian class video. I really hope it comes out soon. Thanks so much for the videos, guys, love it each time I get the notification.
with flurry of healing and harm. it is more cost effective to use flurry of blows to heal outside of combat because you get 2 uses of hands of healing
You can not flurry of blows outside of combat as you can not flurry unless you took the attack action before it on your turn.
@@adarian so you punch the air twice and then use flurry of blows to heal
@@kelvinvoorneveld7265 Good luck finding a DM that will allow that silly crap.
You can only flurry after taking the attack action. So only if your DM lets you attack air or trees or something.
@@Vielden how about a grapple check, this still counts as taking the attack action and and then you flurry.
For Astral Self, I really wish using your Wisdom modifier for attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes extended to the monk's weapons as well. It would have made Astral Self a good multiclass dip for Wisdom casters the same way Hexblade does for Charisma and Battle Smith for Intelligence.
Go Bugbear Monk with 1 level of Druid or nature Cleric (or better yet, 2 levels of ranger with Druidic Warrior), take shillelagh or magic stone. Nobody can touch you!
I hope the next "edition" gives the monk some work. It's always been my favorite class, but 5e has not treated the monk very well.
Very true
5E monks are far above how they were in 1E. You’ve no idea how much better than are now compared to the past.
@@GodwinXZ I do remember playing 3.5 monks and they at least felt on par with other martial classes.
@@GodwinXZ So they, according to you, went from unplayable to worst class in the game? My, what progress.
@@OakenTome I wouldn't call them worst class in the game, just kinda middling.
I like way of mercy because of the implication of reviving someone without the need for material components (then again i've never made it that high level in a campaign so i don't know how easy is to "load up" for the stuff revival spells demand.)
As well as the time limit of them being dead for more than 24 hours. So your party probably died in a big fight, and your out of Ki. That’s fine. Take a short rest, and start rezing them one at a time.
Is it just me or is the Path of the Beast Barbarian closer to an S tier monk than the monk sub classes?
Path of the beast barbarian is siiiiick. It's taken the spot of my favorite barbarian subclass.
We have a way of mercy monk in the campaign I'm cleric in. He has done a fantastic job being backup and support healing while still doing decent damage.
I was hoping for the Ascendant Dragon here, but i'm happy with what we got. Really disappointed with the JoJ.. I mean the Astral Self, and spoiler alert: the Ascendant Dragon sucks
It really does! The UA version was amazing, but they nerfed it to shit in Fizbans for no good reason. Its Especially egregious when the Peace and Twilight Domains exist for an already exceptional base class, but Monks can't get any love.
I've lost hype for anything Wizards has been putting out, between the changes in race design ("everyone" lives about a century? Lazy, Wizards), the nonsense they've been doing to spellcasting NPCs, giving us a Beastmaster that just uses a dragon flavor, and now butchering one of the most promising Subclasses they've ever had, I'm convinced Wizards is asleep at the wheel and doesn't care. I'm not very excited for anything they're putting out right now
B is super generous for the Astral Monk.
I almost want to agree with you. I think it *is* a B but it toes the line of dropping to a C. The only thing it offers as far as I can tell is that it's the best monk subclass for grappling. Play variant human, pick up skill expert in athletics, and grapple/shove the shit out of people using your wisdom modifier. If you're not bothered grappling, then it offers almost nothing of value besides the additional 5ft reach. With that in mind though the same can be said of basically every monk subclass, so that really isn't saying much.
Loved the video (as usual)
I'd like to point out that for the mercy monk, in the recap before ranking it A, the debuff cleaning was left out. at level 6 I feel like the healing is not the best part about hands of healing anymore. Remove Paralysis, stun, poisoned, blinded, all that and more, guaranteed for one key points would push it to S tier imo
I like that you guys took note of a comment on a previous video and put emphasis on not comparing this to other classes. I didn't have a problem with it personally, but it's nice to see you're listening to your community
Updated tier list (regarding both The Dungeon Dudes and the users):
S TIER
- Path of the Totem Warrior (Barbarian)
- College of Lore (Bard)
- Peace Domain (Cleric)
- Twilight Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of the Moon (Druid)
- Battle Master (Fighter)
- Echo Knight (Fighter)
- Gloom Stalker Conclave (Ranger)
- Aberrant Mind (Sorcerer)
- Clockwork Soul (Sorcerer)
- Divine Soul (Sorcerer)
- The Hexblade (Warlock)
- School of Divination (Wizard)
A+ TIER
- Armorer (Artificer)
- Life Domain (Cleric)
- Rune Knight (Fighter)
- Oath of Vengeance (Paladin)
- Arcane Trickster (Rogue)
- Soulknife (Rogue)
- Swashbuckler (Rogue)
- The Fiend (Warlock)
- The Genie (Warlock)
- Bladesinging (Wizard)
- Chronurgy Magic (Wizard)
A TIER
- Artillerist (Artificer)
- Battle Smith (Artificer)
- Path of the Ancestral Guardian (Barbarian)
- Path of the Zealot (Barbarian)
- College of Eloquence (Bard)
- Forge Domain (Cleric)
- Grave Domain (Cleric)
- Light Domain (Cleric)
- Tempest Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of the Shepherd (Druid)
- Circle of the Stars (Druid)
- Circle of the Wildfire (Druid)
- Eldritch Knight (Fighter)
- Way of the Open Hand (Monk)
- Way of Shadow (Monk)
- *Way of Mercy (Monk)*
- Oath of the Ancients (Paladin)
- Oath of Conquest (Paladin)
- Oathbreaker (Paladin)
- Beast Master Conclave (TCE) (Ranger)
- Horizon Walker Conclave (Ranger)
- Swarmkeeper Conclave (Ranger)
- Scout (Rogue)
- Shadow Magic (Sorcerer)
- School of Abjuration (Wizard)
- School of Enchantment (Wizard)
- Order of Scribes (Wizard)
B+ TIER
- Cavalier (Fighter)
- Psi Warrior (Fighter)
- Way of the Kensei (Monk)
- *Way of the Astral Self (Monk)*
- Oath of Devotion (Paladin)
- Oath of Redemption (Paladin)
- Oath of the Watchers (Paladin)
- Fey Wanderer Conclave (Ranger)
- Phantom (Rogue)
- Draconic Bloodline (Sorcerer)
- Wild Magic (Sorcerer)
- The Archfey (Warlock)
- The Celestial (Warlock)
- The Fathomless (Warlock)
- School of Evocation (Wizard)
- School of Illusion (Wizard)
- School of Necromancy (Wizard)
B TIER
- Alchemist (Artificer)
- Path of the Storm Herald (Barbarian)
- College of Glamour (Bard)
- College of Valor (Bard)
- Nature Domain (Cleric)
- Order Domain (Cleric)
- Trickery Domain (Cleric)
- War Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of Dreams (Druid)
- Circle of the Land (Druid)
- Champion (Fighter)
- Samurai (Fighter)
- Way of the Long Death (Monk)
- Oath of Glory (Paladin)
- Hunter Conclave (Ranger)
- Assassin (Rogue)
- Mastermind (Rogue)
- Thief (Rogue)
- The Great Old One (Warlock)
- School of Conjuration (Wizard)
C+ TIER
- College of Swords (Bard)
- College of Whispers (Bard)
- Arcana Domain (Cleric)
- Death Domain (Cleric)
- Knowledge Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of Spores (Druid)
- Arcane Archer (Fighter)
- Way of the Drunken Master (Monk)
- Oath of the Crown (Paladin)
- Monster Slayer Conclave (Ranger)
- Inquisitive (Rogue)
- Storm Sorcery (Sorcerer)
- Graviturgy Magic (Wizard)
- School of Transmutation (Wizard)
- War Magic (Wizard)
C TIER
- Path of the Battlerager (Barbarian)
- Path of the Berserker (Barbarian)
- Way of the Sun Soul (Monk)
D+ TIER
- The Undying (Warlock)
D TIER
- Banneret/Purple Dragon Knight (Fighter)
- Way of the Four Elements (Monk)
- Beast Master Conclave (PHB) (Ranger)
There has been so much angry discourse about monk subclasses, so honestly I'm really excited to hear the more fair and positive approach that you Dudes always bring
I dont have time to watch yet, but way of mercy is S tier and i'll fight anyone who says otherwise lol
Edit: I've been playing a Reborn Mercy Monk for over a year, across multiple oneshots (keeping in theme with life, death, and rebirth) and I can tell you, this subclass is absolutely insane. the healing is incredible. Consider the fact that your MA die increases size, I've done 2d8+6 healing without worrying about also attacking enemies. Even caster healers have that dilemma of "do I heal, or do I attack?" this monk doesn't have to worry about that. On top of this, you can stun one target, poison another, then heal 1 or 2 allies (or yourself) and I think you're glossing over the free skills and herbalism prof (herbalism allows you to craft healing potions. This subclass is S tier, and you're wrong, I challenge you to Mortal Kombat.
I just have to imagine an Astral Self Goliath Monk, who then transforms in his whole Astral Body...
It would probably look extremly intimidating, even if it isn't the best subclass and even if I wouldn't use it, I think it would still be cool.
Both of these classes were hard nerfed from unearthed arcana. I still cant believe how much WotC just refuses to let monk have anything nice.
Did they seriously remove the ki recovery of the astral monk? I didn't know that.
Haha I was just wondering about the new monk stuff if any of it was good and here you guys are, never fails ❤️
I really like the “combat medic” feel of the Mercy Monk. The Mercy Monk I’m playing right now is a shady “Doctor” who wears a Guy Fawkes mask (the one V wears in V for Vendetta) and uses a scalpel along with a needle and thread. I went for a more “grounded” approach with the flavoring like the Hand of Healing being described as him using a needle and thread to sew wounds closed, and the disadvantage from the poisoning effect as him simply cutting some important artery or tendon and having the creature be weakened from the blood loss.
Astral Monk is an absolute monster grappler and shover. Wisdom for STR saves and checks is amazing.
I don't understand why they're so conservative with monk subclasses. Even Way of Mercy feels like it could have gotten some of its higher level upgrades to Hand of Harm right at level 3, and then gotten other abilities at higher levels.
Like why can't monks just have cool things?
Mercy is currently my main character at lvl10, and my DM had to ass pull me a magic stave from Bahamaut (3D4 damage + firebreath on a nat20) and I'm still MILES behind my party's Paladin/Barbarian/Artificer.
I'm great in more RP leaning scenarios, but only because we lack a rogue I get to manage sneaking/movement challenges. But even healing is being covered better by Artificer/Paladin while they also carry tons of raw DPR and utility.
If we had a Rogue, I'd be out of the job entirely, bahaha.
(All that said, the character is awesome and the campaign is fun, so I'm still having a great time)
@@Bladius_ Feeling you. If I didn't roll good stats (17, 15, 15, 14, 12, 10), I probably would have never considered playing a monk. Fortunately, I was able to roleplay and convince my DM to give me an Eldritch Claw tattoo. It's made playing a monk much more enjoyable than it otherwise could have been.
way of mercy deserves the s tier IMO, its just a very mobile healer that can deal decent damage
As far as Monks go, I think it’s the best.
It's the best monk subclass but look at what other S ranks get and you'll see that it falls short. I'm pretty sure rune knight was an a class and is certainly stronger than mercy.
@@jameshernandez4112 The thing is they are supposed to be ranking these just against other monks and thus as the best monk it would be S tier. It adds game changing abilities to the class (Healing) while still being a good damage dealer and making it a better debuffer.
I still don't think the Way of Mercy meets the S tier criteria. It's the best monk subclass imo, but it doesn't really reach that top echelon of subclasses for me.
I wish monks were better, they’re like my second favorite class right after wizard, but they just aren’t very good
Bro monks are arguably the strongest class at lower levels, only challenged by paladin and barbarians. Sure they fall short at high levels with class abilities, and lack raw firepower. But they have such a ridiculous amount of utility and a skill set that provides things that can’t be replicated by any of the other classes.
@@Super-Saiyan9665 The strongest class? Pretty sure they do the least damage among the martial classes.
I enjoyed how you guys classified this one. Can’t wait to see your next vid!!!
Playing an Astral Self Monk right now and I honestly don't agree with it being a B but alright.
Arms saved me a lot of trouble with the reach and force damage, not to mention it's another set of arms to mess around with things with and it's not your body so it can't be damaged! I climbed a thorned tree that both stung and paralyzed no problem! As for Visage, I only just got it so it only came up once when I got to call BS on a commoner pretending to be a shopkeep (it was pretty funny), but the 120 magical darkvision looks great.
I've yet to have the Body and Ascended, but they both look great! Body honestly costs 1 ki point by itself, so it not costing anything but having to activate Arms and Visage as well makes a lot of sense and gives you magical darkvision on top of everything else, and Ascended giving +2 AC and another attack is also awesome, just maybe not 5 ki points awesome.
Astral self is absolute trash , it wasnt too amazing in UA but for some reason they decided to gut it
A good exemple of Way of mercy is Kabuto from the Naruto series
It's good if you want to be a healer and a fighter at the same time
Very good comparison. I always liked his Chakara/KI scalpel technique, and liked how he used his other Medical skills in unorthodox ways.
I've played a mercy monk like zenyatta even though it doesn't have the range, but let me tell you that was some of the most fun I've had being a monk.
"Subclasses that can become ethereal, and teleport around... Like the Echo Knight!"
Horizon Walker: "Am I a joke to you?"
if you play an astral self monk you should choose a race that can cast darkness, like a half-elf dark elf heritage or a dark elf, this way you can combine that with the astral visage to cast darkness over yourself and still see in that darkness.
Feral Tiefling with Bloodline of Asmodeus or Levistus works well.
Shadow Monk with Eldritch Adept and Devil's Sight is far more effective at taking advantage of Darkness for a single feat than any Astral Monk is.
The reason Astral Monk feels like that is that it was originally designed to REGAIN Ki points when you defeated enemies (equal to your Wisdom modifier.) This is obviously overpowered so they removed it, but it leaves the Subclass feeling very wasteful and feeling like it's over extended.
Frankly I love the visual idea of Astral Monk, but I despise it's Subclass design. It really still feels like it's a rough draft of a better subclass.
Yeah, in a vaccum, its OP but A) it's a lvl 17 power and most importantly B) it's on a 5e Monk. It is okay for the subclass to have some powerful features to balance the weak base. The Open Hand Monk has an Save or Death feature at the same level but you don't see people saying that is an S rank Subclass that need nerfs nowadays?
The actual important feature WOTC cut from the Subclass was the free Flurry of blows the Arms had when they were out and the attacks scaled well. Paying 1 ki to have Flurry of blows for the entire fight is amazing and super ki efficient.
@@ruga-ventoj I think my problem is that Ki points don't just represent power, they represent decision making. You can't just fly through ki points because then you won't have the freedom to do so later, when you might really need them.
Even at level 17, when monks are pretty busted, taking away decision making to make a strong character is just lazy. I think its normal to disagree with me about that though, no hate.
But yeah the old version of Astral Monk was broken for tons of reasons
@@noah509 okay, I see how that distinction came to be, but the problem with 5e Monks is that they have to make those decisions when other classes don't. Barbarian's Unarmored defense is Dex+Con and they have D12 Hit Die. High AC =higher health? No problem, easy pick. Monk Unarmored defense? Dex+Wis and a D8 Hit Die. Higher Ac but lower Health or More Health and low AC?
Rogue get Cunning Action to disengage, dash, and hide for only a BA, no limited resource. Monk have to pick to Disengage and dash, or Dodge for 1 ki each and a BA. Rogues get to dart in and out for basically free while the Monk can get maybe one per short rest if they didn't already used the ki or BA for something else. Which in all honesty, is very likely even if you don't use Flurry of blows.
@@ruga-ventoj I get that, but I think thats a problem that should be solved differently than the ki points. Astral Monk can make reach attacks, so they can do a flurry of blows and not have to disengage. They can run in, hit, and run out. That's an interesting solution to the problem, getting rid of the Ki point economy isn't. (Again it was a late game feature, so it still is less relevant at that point.)
I agree, Barbarians and Rouges don't really have to make meaningful decisions to be powerful, but they're the some of easiest classes to play. I think what makes the Monk and some of the spellcasters fun to play is that you get a lot more options; and you have a lot more important decisions to make.
But yeah the Monk needs some attention to be more usable in the early game. Late game monks are busted though.
@@noah509Hit and run is not an interesting alternative choice. That's plan A even though Monks are kinda bad at it. Astral Self only makes the hit and run a bit safer if the foe doesn't have Reach to opportunity attack. The better interesting choice is to Grapple with the arms but it doesn't read as legal RAW.
Look unfortunately, the Ki points and the many features that need Ki points to use is the main problem. The second problem is that martial art damage scales poorly and you can't use martial arts even with light armor, then the third problem is the forced choice between health or ac.
Now problem 2 and 3 can be covered by the many Ki features, but because they all run off the same pool, you will run out quick. So what happens if your subclass also asks to use Ki point to use them? That's more mouths to feed with no extra food. Therefore feature that piggyback off of other feature we already using or being ki free make the whole monk deal more enjoyable.
Also the choices a spellcaster makes and a monk are VASTLY DIFFERENT. Most of Monk choice is stuck in combat and is mostly between hit more or run away. Spellcaster can choose between combat or social and even then there are many branches in each category. It's like a Warlock and Eldritch Blast. Yes you can choose something else, but it has so many reasons why you would choose it that not picking it is handicapping yourself.
Oh. Astral Self dropped the "regain ki points equal to Wisdom when nearby enemies drop to 0" clause from the unearthed arcana version which made it easily the best Monk subclass, at least for raw deeps.
Way of the Astral self and moon druid. That would be an interesting multiclass.
Astral self is an S-tier for one reason. When you hit 17 and have the full projection out, you can yell 'Za WARUDO!' and attack about 10 times while your target is helpless.
@@IronCrown but it doesn't give you the Ora Ora until 17 unlike the UA.
What seems weird to me, is that Mercy Monks can do 2 Hands of Healing when using Flurry of Blows, so by using a Bonus Action, but can only do it one time when they just use the Hands of Healing feature, so by using an Action.
Which means punching something, anything, even the air, and then healing two times, costs as much than healing one time, with just a little worse action economy.
I imagine it being the Acupuncture/pressure point stabs you see in chinese medicine where you hit them in specific spots to heal them.
@@ruga-ventoj Then why Healing one time then attacking one time costs as much as attacking one time then healing two times ?
The Crusher feat also does wonders for the Mercy monk. Letting you disengage an ally from a tough situation until they're ready to get back into combat.
I haven't looked at this yet, but the idea of multiclassing the Astral Self with Echo Knight is SOOO COOOL and I want to make that happen. I let you know when I do 😊
How did we get through an entire episode on the Astral self monk without making a single JoJos reference?
Having a monk that has another good option beyond stunning strike is worthy S tier. Then you add healing, which recharges on a short rest. Definitely S-tier. All the stories about monk tend revolve around stunning strike, which takes a big hit when fighting a monster immune to stunning strike or even just has a good save. Now you can still be a key player when the DM smiles and says "Immune to stunning strike."
What is immune to stunning strike? Last I checked, Stunned is one of the least resisted status effects.
@@adwenger0066 Because high CON save o legendary save
Small thing about how astral sight in Way of the Astral Self monks you missed!
"Astral Sight. You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet."
Its different to Dark Vision as its not stated to appear in shades of grey or be a different way of perceiving light. It states you see normally as if the world is illuminated to you. Which is insane. I like to imagine its like looking into the Wraith World when putting on the One ring.
First time I read the Mercy Monk it reminded me of the Shadow Sun Ninja from the Tome of Battle (Book of Nine Swords) in 3rd (3.5?) edition. The way they kept switching between Positive Energy Healing and Negative Energy damage during combat...
a good thing to say about the astral self is the fact that it allows you to forget about dexterity and put all your points into wisdom.
It does to a point, but if you're ever in a situation where you don't have the ki to activate your arms, you're suddenly useless without dexterity.
They did mention choosing to neglect Dex could easily bite you back, so it's not advisable.
Have fun with trash saving throws, initiative, and AC I guess.
Yeah, that is not true at all. Your AC is still dependent on your Dex, and an AS-monk is still going to be a frontline fighter with ALL of the normal problems of monks. Ignoring Dex will just make these problems even more potent.
@@gamecavalier3230 - Yeah, I'm currently running a game for a group of friends containing: Stars Druid, Necro Wiz, Lore Bard, Totem Barb & AS Monk.
The player running the Monks is (obviously) the least effective at almost everything in the group, but he keeps high spirits, as he loves the monk fantasy (which I don't get). They've just reached level 6, and he has used his Astral arms extremely seldomly, because it just makes no sense, as they scale with the martial arts die (which is to say extremely slowly). Sure force damage is great, but by level 6 most martial classes (not all but most) will have found a magic weapon to bypass res. and guess what... Monks will be right back to subpar damage, subpar defenses and a good control ability targeting the worst saving throw.
I disagree with B for astral self monk. I also feel like you guys skipped out on some of what the subclass does. one thing is the astral fists are force damage, another is that by having 10ft reach the monk can skirmish better by not getting in melee of most enemies.
Also why disregard the use of wisdom and say lets just consider a dex max build? the point of that ability is so you can have better ki saves and still have good attacks, maxing dex there is only really boosting your initiative and dex checks, of which check wise I feel wisdom competes on useful skills.
The ki point arguements also seem harsh given for one the arms ability does literally the same damage as flurry of blows, possibly to more than the one enemy you would hit, the only negative I can see there is not being able to spam stunning strike 4 times on turn 1. I understand you guys short rest less, but honestly arguing that using 1 extra ki point for most of your abilities including extra damage for all subsequent rounds and possibly into another combat if you don't get to rest thanks to the 10 minute duration.
Also shadow monk doesn't have the ability to see in their own darkness, apply that same standard and you can get darkness via a warlock multiclass same as shadow monk or start as a drow or half drow or tiefling to get darkness once a day.
The magic item arguement i think is a little overrated, with the martial arts dice scaling as you level for the most part you don't lose a lot of damage by using unarmed strikes, and in terms of magic items monks already have the issue of flurry using unarmed strikes so their magic items are less effective, unless they use the claw tattoo for example which buffs unarmed strikes the same way other +1 weapons do, plus unless my reading is wrong they would have a 20ft reach with an eldritch claw tattoo.
Overall this monk adds damage post 11, better than most monk classes, at a cheaper ki value than most other subclasses, does force damage and with the reach they can skirmish without taking opportunity attacks without needing mobile or a bonus action to disengage. And in terms of your rankings? I don't think this is a niche pick. A lot of subclasses for monk are very subpar, but I wouldn't say this is worse than kensei, shadow or open hand. Any game this goes in for a monk subclass it seems a good option. if anything was going to be B with criticism for ki point usage it would be kensei imo.
One thing that gets overlooked when considering the Astral Self is that the arms/visage/body last for ten minutes. While this would rarely translate into two combats, what it does do is make you a really resourceful person in exploration. And while the cost feels high in terms of Ki, once active, it stays active. Until you get to 11th level in Way of Mercy, you’re likely spending 2 ki or more per turn, so the one ki cost for the arms isn’t actually all that much.
I’m not arguing that it’s “S” tier, but I do think it’s “A”.
the dudes didn't want to say jojo with the AS monk, that cracked me up
nice video!
I expected the Dungeon Dudes to rate Astral Self lower.
Based on Sun Soul monk being in D-tier, and Astral Self having some parallels to Sun Soul (giving reach), I was expecting Astral Self to also be a D-tier, or maybe C-tier, cause it's a little better than Sun Soul.
Being in the same tier as Long Death is really weird to me. Long Death at 3rd level gets an ability that doesn't cost ki, and again at 6th level gets an ability that doesn't cost ki. At 11th level they get an ability that costs ki, but is definitely worth the ki when you're knocked to 0 HP.
Well, Astral Self allows for focusing your build towards having the best Stunning Strike of all monks thanks to the maxed out Wisdom, to start with? :)
You can grapple (at 10 feet too I think) just as well as the other martials before pummeling them some more at advantage.
You can stand behind the tank of your team and safely wail on opponents thanks to your reach, which improves your survivability too.
There's a few situationally useful abilities for in and out of combat, like Astral Face for interrogations, for example, or seeing in the dark (through magical darkness) at great distance which is nice for races without darkvision, etc.
It'd be better of it was a tad less Ki consuming but well...
@@zTom_ Astral self definitely leans hard on ki conservation. Having that ki left for when you really need to call out your stand is game defining. If your game regularly has very few encounters or excessive rests, it's free real estate and a solid A tier. With serious party synergy and, say, multiclass slightly into barbarian for rage or even reckless attack, maybe have armor from being a dwarf or your first level having been barb, it "can be S tier in the right campaign." Personally, 3 levels barb for ancestral guardians and Astral monk the rest is hilariously good.
Only issue is the usual with multiclassing, martials need to hit level 5 on-time. Oh right, and for some God forsaken reason unarmed damage dice scale off monk levels. As if that'd be more busted than cantrips scaling to player level. Martials and short-rest dependent classes both got shafted, and monk got the worst of both *and* a damage die issue.
@@zTom_ "Well, Astral Self allows for focusing your build towards having the best Stunning Strike of all monks thanks to the maxed out Wisdom, to start with?"
You can max out wisdom with any monk subclass, and they would have the exact same stunning strike.
Assuming you have decided to make a WIS monk, what astral self seems to offer is more damage. But...after I ran the numbers it was really not much more damage. Even if you max out wisdom and not DEX, if you get a good magic weapon, it's often more damage for an astral self to attack with the DEX magic weapon than attack with the WIS punches, despite having more WIS than DEX.
You still sometimes punch with your bonus action, so it's still a small damage gain for a WIS monk. But over a combat it might be spending 1 ki to deal 4 damage. Eh, not actually a great expenditure of ki.
"You can grapple (at 10 feet too I think)"
No, you can't grapple at 10 feet. RAW you can only make unarmed strikes with your astral arms. While the feature is active you can use your regular arms to grapple, and use your WIS instead of STR for the athletics check--thats what the feature allows.
If your character concept involves a monk that does a lot of grapples and throws, maybe they're a Judo master, this lets you make that character. So that's good--it's something monk didn't necessarily have (although some DMs will let monks make DEX athletics checks for grapples, and the DMG does allow them to sub in DEX here; but not every DM will do this).
But....is Astral Self's grappling strong enough to shift where a subclass is placed on the tier list? I don't think this is all that strong. Usually grapple builds want to gain expertise in athletics, gain advantage in athletics, and/or grow to large size so they can grapple more things. Think rune knight. Astral Self would need to multiclass for that kind of stuff. Grapple builds also usually want to be pretty tanky, cause when you grapple a creature, that creature is going to hit you. Monks with their d8 hit points are not tanky.
So...my overall opinion on the grappling is nice for theme builds if you have a stingy DM, but shouldn't really bump up the tier of Astral Self.
"You can stand behind the tank of your team and safely wail on opponents thanks to your reach, which improves your survivability too."
Yeah, reach can be useful. Reach is the most impactful thing Astral Self gets out of their level 3 feature IMO. But the comparison was to sun soul monk, who also gets a form of reach.
(If you're curious, I think the second most impactful thing Astral Self gets out of their 3rd level feature is force damage, which can bypass damage resistances levels 3-5, but after level 6 doesn't really matter cause monks can already bypass resistances at level 6).
"There's a few situationally useful abilities for in and out of combat, like Astral Face for interrogations, for example"
These aspects of, astral face are basically the Thaumaturgy cantrip and the Message cantrip. Except instead of being free and available at level 1, they cost ki and are available at level 6. You might find uses for them, sure, but it's a bit like Purple Dragon Knight getting persuasion at level 7.
"or seeing in the dark (through magical darkness) at great distance"
This is probably the most impactful thing they get at level 6, yeah. Can work ok on a monk archer--most enemies have 60 foot darkvision, if you stand at 120 feet you can see them and they can't see you, so you gain advantage to hit them. Can pair well with the sharpshooter feat.
Pretty situational, though. Need darkness, which you can't produce yourself. And probably an outdoors environment and not a dungeon so that you can get 120 feet of space between you and the enemy. And it's more impactful for monks with some focus on archery (so...that'd be a DEX build).
> It'd be better of it was a tad less Ki consuming but well...
I agree, if all of astral self's abilities cost 0 ki, it would make the subclass quite a bit better. Probably not the best monk even with that change, but pretty good.
The fact that you need to spend ki on this stuff is what makes me think it's C or D tier. Like...you could spend that ki on stunning strike and focused aim instead, and in a lot of situations that will be better.
You know what would have made the Astral Self monk better, being able to make more then two arms.
Martial Arts (And maybe even Flurry) should have gotten upgraded to include an extra strike if Arms are out. Itd still be Ki hungry but it would be semi palatable.
My own Homebrew "Way of the Hecatonchires" is what Kelly wants for Astral Self. I agree, a woefully underserved class.
The Way of Mercy monk is just Mr. Miyagi using either his karate or the hand rub ki technique he used to fix Daniel's knee, I'm convinced of it.
You are grossly overlooking the fact that it deals Force damage IN ALL ATTACKS. Also, no need for mobile with range, SAD Wis (great Stunning Strike, which is extremely powerful), plus great grappling (Wis for Athletics). Seriously, this is S Tier.
if the 5 extra feet reach was so good just play a wood elf for 35 base movement speed, 3 levels later and your unarmed attacks are magical anyway, sure you can level wis but you also still need high dex for AC it just gives you the option to raise wis first, sure you can grapple but you still have a d8 hit die and it takes away the monks main benefit of being mobile (leave grappling to the fighter or barbarian who is built for it), and all of that is reliant on you having spent ki points to use your arms. its not a good subclass, it was ok as a UA but even then it wasnt great until 17th level. official is just......meh.
@@kuroshinigami9143 You do realize that the "mere" extra 5 ft give you the Mobile feat for free against any creature that does not have over 5 ft of range, right? You're also ignoring the fact that increasing WIS first increases your chance to Stun someone, which is the only so-good-it's-broken feature the monk has (because it lasts until the END of the Monk's next turn, allowing him to keep someone locked down should they fail enough)
I feel like the force damage of Astral self isn't being considered enough. Its the best damage type period and monk has that unique problem of finding magic items to augment their damage because of how monk just *work* in 5e.
Well yeah, it's a nice damage type, but that doesn't make it do much more damage. Especially since Monks get magical fists at level 6.
i think the damage type isnt really the problem. you dont face that issue early on, and from level 6 you're good to go. the real issue is that all the interesting effects are on swords, and there are like 2 low level items that do anything to improve unarmed strikes damage wise.
Brooch of Shielding is a very low level magic item that a lich or evil wizard could incorporate reducing the effectiveness of the monk. Smart villians plan ahead.
@@xandosreign Yeah, this is what I'm thinking every time I see someone say that dealing force damage is a good thing. Truthfully, it's not. Doing a damage type other than magical physical is actually terrible for the simple reason that it's not very hard to go out and find some way to gain resistance if not outright immunity to it. Resisting magical physical damage is a lot harder.
Monk video, monk main watches, monk main likes before even allowing the video to play. Because monk main is not patient
Now after watching the video I’m a little sad about the Astral self monk. Like, I’m not an anime fan myself, but I thought about Neji on the first naruto anime where the guy hits in all directions 72 times with his palms, but the taxing though… and what about making it like one of those Barbarians with the spirits of their ancestors? Like this monk could’ve summoned a spirit or something like that giving more actions and stuff. It’s just like … bro :(
I just started a strahd campaign, I’m playing a deurgar mercy monk who was trained as a slave to drow before breaking out to the surface, now working as a traveling herbalism doctor with chi points healing and a few spells (MI feat) flavored as naruto hand signs. Needless to say this video helped a lot with my choices going forward. Thanks!
How would the Astral Self monk go with a tortle PC though? Could you just hunker down in your shell while you shell everyone around you with a ton of punches? Ultimate defense plus decent offense.
While hunkered down in your shell you can not take actions other than to emerge back out of the shell so you could not attack.
Unfortunately, the shell does say that while hiding in your shell, the only action you can take is to emerge. Your DM could rule differently, but that's RAW.
Guys...monks are insanely powerful both in combat and exploration. I dunno what happened to me you think they're lackluster but I'd recommend giving them another chance. They're meant to work within a party as a battlefield controller. Monks are amazing.
The Mercy Monk feels like a discount Kenshiro (ftom Fist of the North Star). The head-exploding punches are so iconic that people forget Kenshiro could alsi use pressure points to heal others and even control their actions (though the healing was used so rarely I don't blame people for not remembering it).
Mercy Monk feels like they got a weaksauce version of the 'scramble the other guy's internal organs/mess up their ki with a tap' trick in exchange for better healing.
Or maybe a variation of the Gentle Fist from Naruto.
Honestly, as good as it is, it feels like its missing something. Maybe something like Chi Blocking from AtLA, where the enemy can't use spells or certain abilities for a while or the targeted limb is temporarily disabled.
Love the Astral Self Monk Subclas! :)
Regards from Tabasco, México [Land of The Olmecs]!
I gotta disagree on the Astral Self Monk, it's bad, at LV 3 you get effectively just a reach weapon, a pitiful aoe and less MADness at the cost of ki and since the arms deal martial arts damage you're gonna be using a d4 until you get to level 5, at LV 6 with the Visage you're getting a dark vision you can't capitalize on, better insight, intimidation which you probably don't have much use for as a monk, and a ribbon feature, it's at lv11 that you get the first true upgrade.
I'd have moved Mercy into S tier. You get three additional proficiencies to give you more to do in social situations and can heal people without needing divine power. You deal more damage than most monks, can heal to save party members in a pinch and have irresistible poison on a stick (for free at 11th) so that even if your stuns don't land the target is depowered. And the healing coming back with ki on a short rest means you can top the party up for free; sure the party might have a healer but it's likely they need a long rest to get spells back, Mercy monk means they get to use more spells for not being a healbot.
Thanks for this great overview.
"And for everything else, there's master card"
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