I once had a dream in which I was a bank teller and the bank got robbed by The Joker and his gang. During the robbery, he handed me his gun and said "Hold this!" So I did, and then I followed when he walked away in case he wanted it back. When I woke up, I thought to myself, that's what makes the Joker work. He has to be so high on his own supply that you just go with it out of fear of what he might do. Jack Nicholson, Mark Hamill, and Heath Ledger all understood that.
But then the Philosophical Joker came around in Heath Ledger, most likely taking inspiration from Killing Joke, and now everyone wants Philosophical Joker, which ruined Joker. I would blame Killing Joke for ruining Joker, but it wasn't even meant to be a Canon Comic, just a One-shot. It was made Canon for the Popularity, which wrecked Joker. Now Joker is basically Anarky.
The most damning thing about all modern takes on the Joker being molded into that type is that it makes him predictable, and if the word "predictable" even remotely applies to the Joker then that's a fundamental failure.
One of my favourite moments of Jokers unpredictability is in 'The Batman' where he decides to dress up as Batman and fight "crime" and everyone is just confused and scared shitless. Like Penguin can't fucking comprehend it, it messes with him so hard. Joker doesn't go after pure innocents, he goes after people he twistedly considers criminals like those whl take too many items through the express checkout or people littering the streets. Not technically criminals yet he us using the general social contract and soft rules of society to cause absolute fucking mayhem. It's great and a prime example of why The Joker is such a great villain because you should almost never be able to predict what insane shit he will pull next. Joker is best when he is comedically unhinged and messed up. I wish we got Jokerised fish in the Dark Knight trilogy because that would have just been so messed up and insane for it to come from Ledgers Joker of all characters.
Nolan’s Batman should’ve remained its own unique, grounded take, not a template and excuse for edgelord filmmakers to take all the fun out of the franchise.
@@roberthewes3148 I like Ledger's Joker a a self contained thing, but tbh loathe when it bleeds into other iterations. Even something such as fanfiction, even the decent ones, suffer imo from it as in written format seems to highlight how different that Joker in fact is in mannerism, speech pattern, where the emphasis is on the look etc compared to comic book (meaning golden age, bronze age etc. Written by such as: Bill Finger, O'Neill, Englehart, Dini and Dixon. These, for me, truly get the Joker, and should be the model to follow. Whereas Moore, Miller etc wrote alt versions that are meant as one off iterations).
@@MidnightIsolde Same. Even then, I acknowledge the biggest flaw in Ledger’s Joker is that his plan is way too well thought-out for an “Agent of Chaos.” It’s one of the things I prefer about Jack’s Joker, he just kinda has fun messing with people, doing whatever he feels that day.
@roberthewes3148 yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with showing Joker is a cunning character, able to dream up and enact crazy schemes. That's a key part of his character. But, thinking about it, I think it is more of a case where he does just do whatever is fun to him and likes to show off, but he is clever enough to actually enact it in a cunning and out of the box way. Joker without is intellect is just a fool, but with it... he's a nutter that happens to be genius. I think the main issue with Ledger that you point out is not so much that he's a good planner, as Joker should be that, but that he's perhaps too serious about it in a way, which is why the agent of chaos stuff rings untrue. That has also led to people post Ledger latching onto Joker as having some deep purpose or profound philosophy. This is harmful to the character imo
The Dark Knight trilogy also affected other comic book movies and sci-fi franchises by pushing for a "grounded realism" by removing supernatural elements like gods, aliens, and magic and include only scientific tech, powers, and costumes that are plausible and practical, because turning green via gamma radiation exposure and a 108 meter kaiju are somehow more plausible than extraterrestrial life and ghosts.
This is why I’m glad Gunn is in charge of DC films now. He’s never shied away from the bizarre or outrageous elements in comics. Just knowing that the upcoming Superman movie is going to have not only the Thanagarians and the Lantern Corps but also frigging Krypto? It’s a breath of fresh air. Here’s hoping that carries through to any new Batman films.
This is pretty obvious to Batman fans because it's gotten to the point where 95% of Batman's rogues gallery and supporting characters are unusable. We need to get back to letting Batman be Batman again so we can actually see some Batman stories get adapted, for once.
@flashtheshapeshafter I remember a Comment recently from someone who is arguing against seeing The Batman Sequels use Robin and Batgirl. I hope Reeves brings them in, at the very least, just to shut these Folks up.
@WalkmanWillWalkAllOverYou all DC had to do to compete with the MCU is do an Avengers ensemble movie but with a Batfamily skin it's not that hard to do since WB/DC has the rights to those characters
The last segment on Batman needing his family is a huge part of why I love the Lego Batman movie. That one does a phenomenal job at the depiction of Batman as "that little boy who doesn't want to lose his family again".
Give me a Batman movie deep in the comic timeline where he has the whole family and the DCU is running in full detail in the background. These endless reboots keep telling only the most boring parts of the story and I swear I'm getting PTSD from seeing Bruce's parents get merc'd over and over and over again.
@Pentarax I get why people love The Lego Batman film, but Lego Batman worked better for me in small doses as a Supporting character in the films he spun off from. When it comes to light-hearted Batmans, I prefer Batman: The Brave and the Bold's take.
@@NoHiro-qc4dvDCU’s version will be giving us some of the bat family as it will have Damien Wayne Robin so that will mean we could also get Nightwing etc
Studios took the wrong lessons from Nolan's trilogy Instead of thinking, "Hey, look when a good writer and director have the creative freedom to faithfully adapt the character and show the world why said character is great, its successful and people love it." They think "Wow a dark realistic movie, this sells lets turn all of characters into that"
The Dark Knight is in par with Alan Moore's Watchmen with how they - despite being excellent works of fiction - became horrible influences on the film and comics industries.
I also see Tolkien's Lord of the Rings the same way. The books are amazing but their impact/influence on the fantasy genre really reminded him of how much Moore fucked the whole comic industry... by making good art really I swear to god, if I read one more fantasy book featuring elves that can live for thousands of years AND have pointy ears AND are better than human in most discipline AND are great with bow, I'm gonna strangle myself with Galadriel's hair
@@xeno-kun983 i feel a bit iffy about putting tolkien in the same bubble as others have mentioned mostly bc his writings were super detailed in depth that you could actually mistake it for history (to an uneducated person tho), creating new languages etc. it feels unfair to really lump him in with the other considering that he revitalized fantasy that was going into decline.
I once told my mother that Batman was referred to as the world’s greatest detective and that it was a big part of his character in the comics after showing her the Nolan movies and she looked at me like I said Batman is an alien merman who played the bagpipe. This is a person who grew up loving Adam West’s Batman, who was able to figure out all kinds of crazy shit so I think you’re right about the Nolan trilogy leading casual audiences to believe the detective element isn’t important to Batman
@@Rengokuo4o6when people say “in the comics” you have to be more specific. There have been thousands of issues of Batman comics with hundreds of writers. In some he’s a great detective, in others he stumbles along so the mystery stretches out and it’s exciting for the reader.
@Pencilman246 He's terrible in the long Halloween. Go on UA-cam and such for a video on Batman being the worst detective. You'll see it. Except for cheap flexing by authors, Batman is a pretty terrible or mid detective. I will remember the video that did a breakdown of this.
I've seen a comment somewhere a long time ago that said something along the lines of "if Superman represents an idealistic hope that everyone wants to believe in, then Batman represents a more grounded hope - that someone can clean up our home without being a superhuman. A person whose weakness isn't about power scaling, or a special stone - but his own psyche. He grapples with his shortcomings the way anyone else would: he makes allies, he tries to give opportunities to those who have experienced similar misfortunes as himself. He continues to believe that an old friend can fight his demons and win. He does everything he can because he wants to make sure what happens to him, what happened to his Robins, never happens to anyone else again."
Burton’s is probably my favorite visually. Gotham actually looking like a modern Gothic horrorscape, the extremely memorable Bat suit and gadgets, Joker’s makeup looking like the character just leaped off the comic book page, it’s darkly gorgeous.
It's actually incredible how, as someone who does like those films (even if I haven't seen them in forever) my immediate thought upon seeing the title was "yeah, probably." There's a lot to like about them, they're great action thrillers, and I think they're an interesting take on the characters, but the fact that so many iterations are trying to be too much like them sucks honestly. Also Heath Ledger Joker was a great villain, but now so many Jokers are trying to be too much like him to the point where Joker's whole clown theme feels like it's taken a back seat. I like Joker because he's supposed to be both threatening and funny in a twisted sort of way, but too many newer takes hone in just on the threatening part. And to an honestly ridiculous degree too. And Batman himself can do a lot of cool super hero action stuff, but the detective part of him, and his empathy for his villains feel like they've been largely forgotten about.
"If you can't imagine your iteration of Batman counseling a troubled youth, you've failed to write Batman" Totally butchered the saying but it goes something like that.
@@bobaorc7839 Think it's more along the lines of, "If you can't imagine your Batman comforting a crying child, that's not Batman; that's The Punisher in a silly hat", accredited to Red of Overly Sarcastic Productions :3
I had a couple things that came to mind instantly. How almost every interpretation of the Joker since has tried to compete with Ledger, by being crazier without making sense (Leto), an uglier psychological profiler (Barry) or.. idk what Phoenix is lol. The lack of any fantastical or meta villains has translated to a heavy focus on the gangs and a few select villains shown in the least fantastical way possible (Joker, Harley, Penguin, Catwoman, Two-Face, Bane with minimum Venom). As if the more it's a noir, the more it must be realistic. Batman only having a relationship with Alfred, Gordon and Catwoman. Robins, Batgirls and anything else resembling a Batfamily or friends are rare (excluding Harvey Dent).
@@navonmyhand7999 "He's crazy! He just wants to watch the world burn!" Characterization that represents Nolan's fundamental misunderstanding of both mental illness and what motivates people to commit crimes.
I'll never forget how TDK led to that horrible comic run where Joker cut off his own face because the author was trying so hard to out-edgy everyone. Please someone let Grant Morrison or one of the other good Batman writers handle the screenplay of the next movie, movie writers just don't get it. Don't even get me started on the latest film turning the Riddler into the Zodiac killer when Hush exists and would have fit that role much better.
My favorite Batman moment came in the Justice League Unlimited epilogue when Batman comforts Ace on the swing. I actually teared up a little. No agenda, not trying to get her to take her guard down so he can trick her. Just genuine empathy for what she’s going through If there’s one word I can use to describe Batman’s core character, it’s “empathy” Edit: omg I genuinely wrote this before I saw that you mentioned it in this video! Haha awesome
Yet that same character. In that same universe managed to disillusion and fracture his own proteges. Both Robin's actually hate Bruce by their adult years. And that same character had an affair with his " sons" ex girlfriend and partners daughter.......who he also just flung aside. By the timeline of Batman Beyond. Bruce Wayne is an old cynical, rotten man who has alienated every one. Batman sits with ACE because the DCAU had a Batman hard on. And turned what used to be a intriguing hero into a God like Deux ex Machina.
@auntiewewe972 In the Case of Tim, we should take that case with a grain of salt, especially since the Joker was mind controlling him through a microchip (making it very dubious to me that Tim genuinely hated Bruce).
@eamonndeane587 true. But also we find out Bruce totally ghosted Tim after the ordeal. And never even once talked with him afterwards. So my point was simply where did this " compassionate " caring Bruce come from? If he was do empathetic towards Ace , why not towards the ones he was closest to? The writers simply made Batman whatever they needed for the story. In my mind Batman would be the one character that saw it for what it was. And not of gotten emotionally involved
"the Dark Knight Rises" is just a rubbish title. It excludes Batman Begins and adds to the rubbish trend of adding random words to the title starting with R. Funnily, I often thought it should've been called "the Batman".
@@PauLtus_BBatman didn’t end in the movie. Bruce Wayne ended and retired but Batman came back which is why it’s called rises. The literal end of the movie is John Blake rising as the end Batman.
It's like when the Watchmen comic came out, and suddenly everyone wanted "gritty, realistic superpowered beings with chips on their shoulders." Look what they did to Superman!
@@supernerd4677 please, animation is way better handling fantastical and grounded elements of comic books better most of the time. People give live action superhero movies too much credit when they only get one thing correct but mess up other things.
@@Spantzcatdog I think you should give filmmakers a chance to interpret the properties in their own distinctive way. Keep an open mind. You might be surprised.
I think one of the best ways to point out the randomness of Joker’s Cruelty is through the death of Jason Todd. Joker beats him half to death with a crowbar just because he felt like it, when Jason’s mom points out how Batman is gonna react when he sees what Joker did, Joker replies with, “Hadn’t thought of that”, he then decides to blow up the warehouse so Batman doesn’t find out he did it. One of the most impactful Batman moments, one of the most famous deaths in DC, something always listed as the worst thing Joker has ever done… and he did it just for the Hell of it. There was no point to it like Barbara getting shot in Killing Joke, no elaborate plan like when he got Superman to kill Lois, he did it just because it was the first thing that came to mind. Or even in Btas, in the episode ‘The man who killed Batman’, Joker sentences said man to death Via a vat of acid at Batmans funeral, locking Sid in a casket with Batmans cowl, having a conveyor belt that wheels him into the vat, with Sid desperately apologising as he’s wheeled inside. After the casket sinks, Joker stand there, sighs, and then says “Well that was fun! Who’s for Chinese?” Sometimes Joker just needs to be a guy who either doesn’t have a point to his cruelty, or is doing it for the most terrifyingly pettiest of reasons
Hard agree. I almost never lean towards the sentiment "This Joker isn't being funny enough to balance out what he's doing/There doesn't seem to be joke in this so he shouldn't be doing it" because that's hardly integral to his character and even if it was then the joke can easily be him doing it because of the randomness of it. He's for all intents and pun filled purposes the Joker's wild.
"No, Alfred, I don't use guns. I'll never use guns. But I'll put them on my motorcycle in case someone else wants to use it." -- Nolan's Batman (probably)
He's always had guns on his vehicles, still doesn't mean he'd be blasting fools away with them. They are tools used to remove obstacles. Also him not using hand weaponry ties more into his childhood trauma and justice philosophy which one would think is obvious.
The Nolanverse pronunciation of the name "falcone" is actually accurate. It's an American bastardization of the Italian pronunciation which would be Fahl-cohn-eh.
Yep. Same with Raws al Ghul being closer to the Arabic pronunciation. Every single Arabic speaker I’ve talked to in person and found online tells me that Raysh is not the Arabic pronunciation. It just got popular because of the Animated series.
@@Ren_Davis0531 Raysh sounds more like Hebrew, which is odd. Ghul is still pronounced incorrectly and would be more like "gh-au-ll" with a more gutteral "g" and a deeper "l". Honestly Ra's Al-Shaytan would've been a better name but it's understandable why they didn't use it.
My favorite Batman comic I’ve ever read is Detective Comics no 1017, where it’s all about Batman trying and failing to save a orphan from dying of hypothermia due to running away from an orphanage that Bruce donates money and technology to. Children had been mysteriously disappearing, and Bruce is visibly upset by Miguel’s (the orphan) passing. He resolves the case not as Batman, but as Bruce Wayne who turns the orphanage director in to the police, but still punches the guy for good measure. It’s the most human I’ve seen Batman in a single issue story in a long time and really gets to the core of what Batman’s mission really is and that punching the Riddler isn’t the whole of it. It’s also the issue he flat out says that Superman is his favorite superhero. It’s canon.
I really hate how people keep making Superman and Batman hate each other (looking at you, Frank Miller). They may have their disagreements, but on the whole they know that they’re both working towards the same goal and have a lot of respect for the other.
@@Djinsin They shouldn't even have a dynamic since it leads to dumbing down Superman to make Batman look smart. Writers should explore other Batman's friends who fit into his world better.
My biggest issue with the Nolan Batman is that he's the Ayn Randian reinterpretation I didn't need. Batman has been such a complex character for a long time, and I think a lot of people reduce him to beating up poor people or whatever and forget some of his crucial character building. Where's the Bruce Wayne who tries to get all of his rich friends to reinvest in Gotham so that people have better lives? Where's the Bruce Wayne who donates his time to a soup kitchen? Batman cares about the citizens of Gotham. I have a joke about the Nolan films that is quite relevant. Nolan Batman films have three categories of character: criminal, cop and Batman. All characters fit into this, there is no civilian perspective. This is post 911 Batman and they made him a supercop. When Lego Batman has a better Batman than you, you've got a problem.
it kind of took me years after watching that to sort of understand who Ayn Rand was. i think i heard the name loosely after coming across some scholarship with her name on it in 2010/2011 but i never read any of her book, all i heard from others was that she was kind of bad news also big non-fiction books scared me attention-span wise 😅 the beating up poor people jokes and narrative line that i saw for a long while online was weird and made me kind of feel bad for liking Batman. i sort of felt like i must've missed some kind of subtext that i wasn't really seeing due to not being as well read and stuff. Also my libraries at the time had limited Batman material to check and stuff.
@@TwinRiver100 when a character like Batman is around for this long, its really easy for him to get confused. I mean he first appeared in comics in 1939, and he has quite the legacy. He has been Flanderized to hell and back in a lot of media, and it's sad to see him reduced the way he is when he has the potential to talk about really important topics like wealth disparity, trauma, mental health, empathy, crime, law and so much more. Nolan's Batman established this detached lone wolf Batman for modern film audiences that we have yet to recover from. Ayn Rand's philosophy has gripped a lot of people and even if Nolan doesn't say he's read her work, it is very similar to the thought process. Rand's got a very libertarian view of a big strong man whose so focused on his own self interest that everyone else's happiness does not even factor in. In a similar vein, he helped write the new Superman movie which suffers from the same problem. Batman can be paranoid and brooding, but he also wants to uplift the people around him. People forget the positive aspects of Batman and kind of reduce him to cop 2 a lot of the time which is such a deep shame.
The soup kitchen part reminded me of the BTAS episode where he hears about some of the regulars going missing and right afterwards goes undercover to find out what happened to them. Nolan Batman would never
@@animeotaku307 that might be the episode I'm thinking of. And then he meets the poor guy and just gives him an awesome job because the guy needs help. You know- because Batman uses his resources to help people.
I do agree with the Realistic Batman, with no fantastical villans getting really old. Batman's villlians are only rivaled by Spider-man. I'm also very tired of the Joker in general. Massively over used.
Man this is a bold title but I actually 100% agree with you. The Dark Night feels like it was ground 0 for all the edgy batman stories. It feels like a lot got lost from Batman when he became an edgelord in so many stories and I honestly do think a lot of it started with TDK
This what makes me appreciate brave and the bold more. It show that "batman isn't edgy stuff, ut can also have fantastic and camp stuff" while still showing that grim and noir stuff. I also love how he plays off with other heroes ether by being the striaght man, the blue clam oni to the red hot oni, or an mentor to new heroes
The issue is that it was the first good Batman movie in a while, and people decided that "dark and gritty" was why the movie was good. Similar to how everyone jumped into making grimdark Magical Girl shows after Madoka.
@@arahman56 Nolan's films may have been credited as saving the Batman film franchise after Schumacher's last movie took it way too much back into cartoonish camp for the fans' liking, but I do think it also helped influence future comic book movies a bit too much into the opposite direction as well, which has its own downsides. Even if fans want Batman movies they can take seriously it shouldn't have to mean losing any of the fantastical style of the older movies in the process to do it, because everyone just wants to continue emulating Nolan's much more realistic take on the character.
@@starmaker75 The Brave and the Bold also didn't shy away from being dark when it wanted to be. The episode with the Doom Patrol ends with them all dying because Batman failed to save them despite trying his best.
Another aspect of Two Face that I've never really seen explored much but would be wildly fascinating is... what does Harvey Dent, former District Attorney bring to the criminal enterprises of Two-Face, notorious mob boss? And this is another thing the Nolan-verse Batman jettisons with making the whole Dent story so focused on just the transformation and then killing him immediately. Like, imagine the Breaking Bad levels of story you can get out of seeing this former good-cop lawyer use his very specific skill set in the criminal world to produce gambits that shake things up. How Dent might be aware of what crimes will and won't get responded to with shows of force by the city. Tricking his opposition in the crime world into making too much noise, stepping on the wrong toes. And even as a GOOD DA, Harvey probably still got wind of who in power was more amenable to corruption. Seeing these good guy skills and knowledge leveraged for foul ends. PLUS! It makes for such a useful in world cautionary tale, and why plenty of people would have misgivings about Batman. Seeing how much harm Two Face can cause as a former beacon of hope makes the fear of such an unchecked power player as Batman way more reasonable. The DCU's fear of Superman turning evil was always a little wild because it's SUPERMAN! But people thinking BATMAN might fall off the deep end and go crazy? Hell, for most Gothamites it's probably more "when, not if".
Thank you. Harvey is my all-time favourite antagonist in the Batman universe, and he is been regularly underused in live action. His dynamics in TDK was one of the aspects that rubbed me the wrong way. KIling him off almost instantly just looks as a worst way to say "wasted opportunity". Also, one thing that particularly concerns me is "dark and realistic" take that was maniphested by the film, yet it completely went beyond every level of physics/human organism peuciarities when it came to the wounds of Harvey which transformed him into Two-Face. Gone with the original way of making him Two-Face (and the way it happened in the comics is very grounded in reality, unfortunately; one can find stories of people wounded like that out of jealousy, vengeance etc. in true crime from many decades), instead there are different elements affecting his face...and in the end, he 1)keeps his eye on the wounded side which is...doubtful given what happened to him; 2)haven't died of painful shock? How?
touching on the breaking bad type story, i think u could kill two birds with one stone by making harvey’s turn into two face a slow descent bc you could 1. make his character shift be more logical or understandable and 2. avoid the mentally ill comic book villain trope of “sane person becomes crazy from one single incident.” like i think you could do a better call saul type story where this relatively straight laced guy starts getting a little cocky and greedy and starts sticking his nose where he shouldn’t. maybe he gets wrapped up in doing shady stuff and is trying to balance being on good terms with sal maroni and trying to uphold a facade of a good reputation. then sal scars his face, and this is kinda breaks the floodgates, exposes his shady dealings, kills his career, blah blah blah and then we see why he leans into the two-face identity: bc his self-destructive tendencies fucked him over big time and he feels like he can’t run away from that anymore so might as well own it def a concept that needs some major polishing and stuff but idk i think something like this could work for his character
I'm tired of "realistic" Batman. No amount of realism stops it from being a goddamn sci-fi franchise with impossible gadgets, fictional chemicals and exagerated human endurance. We need an adaptation that owns that shit.
Yeah, it’s always annoying when people claim he’s the most realistic super hero. The man has an airplane in his basement. Nothing about that is realistic.
@@Aaron-zt5eeHe’s the most realistic solely due to him having no powers. (He’s not the only one but he’s the most popular so go figure) And… that’s it. That’s all for the surface level reasoning. He’s only seen as realistic, because he compared to people like superman, the flash or green lantern, like it’s a competition. However, if we push aside the artificial character design, the amount BS Batman pulled against supernatural enemies for an ordinary human is astonishing. He has sci-fi gadget, unreasonable 100+ martial arts mastery, can take on hordes of people in hand to hand combat, wears an armor that can tank bullets all day like it’s an iron man suit, beat his enemies to submission without giving brain damage or paralysed them, and no one shoots in the goddamn mouth. He is not realistic at all when you open your eyes and look at him with basic physics. Only in his own universe which is a superhero universe. Yeah… he’s a superhero. Superhero isn’t real. Why don’t they stop making this billionaire who wears a bat costume to fight crimes realistic. The guy doesn’t even need to sleep!!!
It's escapism, some people take it way too seriously. I'm 61 years old and I'm burnt out on all these science fiction superhero fantasies! The market is saturated. That's why they're making Joker musicals!
@@fearlesseye5896Not fighting Superman? He can't be realistic, Superman actually hit him and he didn't splatter all over the place. Batman versus Superman is a one punch kill!
When you brought up Joker's pettiness I instantly remembered how he reacted, in the Burton movie, when Batman stole his balloons. That scene and the one of him pulling out the giant revolver still gets a laugh out me 🤣
I get it. Almost nobody cares if a movie is a bad adaptation as long as it's good by itself, but when a bad adaptation starts an entire genre, then the cracks start to show. Jim Carrey's The Mask is a comedic masterpiece and one of my favorite films of all time, but it's very different from its horror source material. If The Mask had started a new era where every horror icon became comedic, it would be hated. Now, the Nolan trilogy was great, but one can see its bad influence in other superhero movies that decided to imitate the wrong parts of it.
I feel like the same thing happened in comics with the one-two-three punch of Killing Joke, Dark Knight Returns, and Watchmen. Great books all, but set off one of the worst periods in comics by people taking the wrong lessons from them.
I’m a Transformers fan, so I had to put up with the Michael Bay movies being both bad films and bad adaptations being the face of the franchise to the general public for a decade And it poisons the perception of this franchise
Honestly, I think the Nolan trilogy was influenced by its namesake, the dark knight returns. It, too, is an overall good story that is fundamentally lacking what makes Batman himself. The main difference, and main justification, is that in Returns, Bruce has gotten far older and lost touch, almost becoming a thrill-seeker bereft of the empathy which drove him originally. He was the Batman we knew at one point, but became disconnected and brutal.
It's called The Dark Knight Returns, not Batman Returns, that's what people call him, not how he calls himself. I think there's an intentional subtext to it
People forget it was also a mix of Jason’s death and the government outlawing superheroes that forced Batman to retire. It’s the same in DKR, the death of Rachel and Harvey alongside with the Dent act forced Batman to retire until there was a need for him again.
Are you talking about JLU? Man even thinking of that scene makes me tear up. Probably my favourite Batman moment of all time. No big fights, no bad ass one liners just a man sitting on a swing with a scared little girl before she dies. Just incredible
My best friend saw The Batman before me, and when they got home, they messaged me to say that Robert Patterson's Batman would definitely have sat with Ace and comforted her, and therefore was spot-on and their new favorite live-action Batman, (nothing will supplant Kevin Conroy as the best Batman across all media.) That sold me and I was really excited to go see this version of Batman asap.
I think Ben Affleck was a solid casting choice for Batman, but unfortunately, Snyder just did not understand Batman, let alone Superheroes and what makes them interesting.
While it did, its not really the fault of the movie that people want to copy its success, that would be like saying sci-fi was ruined by star wars because hundreads of bad movies wanted to be the next star wars. Blame the people who copied not what is being copied
The movie has it's faults too. Batman as a character wasn't really interesting in the last 2 movies. Nolan's version of Batman is just not likable to me. Mainly because how quickly he retired as Batman. He doesn't grow or change much after the first movie. Batman in the comics gets growth as a character even after the origin story. The Batman showed one of them. Also Nolan's movies are too grounded to the point it's not fun anymore. Gotham is just a generic city, his villains other then the Joker are boring, the fights aren't usually good, Batman is really incompetent against regular criminals. His detective side is barely present. Even though being a detective is a major part of his character. He literally needed to breach privacy of every citizen to find one dude. Even then he only won at the end of TDK because of luck. Everyone in those ships happen to be selfless enough to risk their lives. These are great movies no doubt. But these are superhero movies that are ashamed to be superhero movies.
@@DiegoXRA “The Batman showed one of them” Batman is a reckless moron for most of that movie and only realizes he has to be more than rage because he picked up a child lol
This is why the 1966 Batman was unironically one of the best adaptations. I didn't even realize Batman was supposed to be kind or wholesome until I watched Adam West teach Robin about the importance of road safety and wealth taxes.
I haven't watch it not do I feel like watching it. Too campy and not serious for my taste Batman should feel real. Even the more comedic parts of the Teen Titans cartoon felt real compared to the Boomer Batman stuff!
Agree except one problem is I'm not always sure how sincere it was. Sometimes it feels too much like 60s Hollywood making fun of traditional heroes. Compare it to Trek's very earnest and still cool Captain Kirk for instance.
TvTropes even has this as a Trope. Hated what they did with Luke Cage/Jessica Jones/Iron Fist Fucking David Tennant in a Purple Suit named Kevin instead of a Purple Skinned dude named Zebediah Kilgrave named The Purple Man
Yeah, Joker is undoubtedly my favourite character, but i am tired of how flanderised his murderous aspect is. I am not hopeful for the Reevesverse Joker when we finally get it. It will im sure be even more of the same gritty and grounded approach- even more so than Nolan!
Re: Joker And all, ALL respect to Heath Ledger But Joker keeps getting pushed farther and farther into the darkenss beyond the character's intention. Long gone are the electric joy buzzers. Killing Joke was supposed to be an EXTREME story, not Joker's base jump starting point (regardless of possible origin revelation). But even THAT had some homicidal gags in it.
Every film Joker performance since has been trying to be Heath Ledger. And that sucks. Why can’t we portray a goofier Joker again? Also it’s really obvious to tell who watched The Dark Knight as a kid when they talk about other Batman media. Especially when they say “Why isn’t the Joker obsessed with Batman?”
You know, as much as I have misgivings about it, at least the Harley Quinn show did something different with the Joker. And NGL, it’s actually funny watching him in his get-up being a good husband and stepfather and even becoming possibly Gotham’s best mayor. It still feels like his warped humor is around even though he’s not being a villain anymore.
@BruceWayne-xq7bb oh we barely got anything of that universe it took strange and bold turns but didn't justify anything because was handled with prequel energy everything was teasing things for movies that never came like BvS featuring a broken Batman and little of Batman's world because they were keen on having it all in that trilogy that kept delayed til they just abandoned it for The Batman movie reboot and even that's being left to spoil.
Depends on the story and tone. Even then it needs to fit the theme and aesthetics The fake flower can spray flesh dissolving acid in a more gritty Batman story
I am the oddball when I say I much prefer Batman Begins over the other two Nolan films. There was more style and atmosphere to balance out the “realism” that was utterly lost after Begins.
Tbf that’s not what he was originally. His first incarnation i the 40s was mostly just a creepy serial killer with a clown-like getup. He didn’t even laugh or smile much. He was just disturbing
@Joshcoshbagosh Yeah I actually read the first issue. His whole gimmick was his murder method was a Toxin that would make people's facial muscles turn into a smile which was basically one of his two calling cards. But like how Batman evolved from someone who doesn't like killing but did it when the situation called for it into someone who will not and does not kill PERIOD, Joker kind of evolved. For better (The Animated Series) and for worse (Suicide Squad and what the Killing Joke and Dark Knight did for the character)
@@MILDMONSTER1234 Golden Age was such a weird time for comics. Like when the Flash wasn't Barry Allen or Wally West but Jay Garrick and Green Lantern wasn't Hal Jordan nor John Stewart but Alan Scott (Whose not even an actual member of the Corps and his weakness was wood)
@@Joshcoshbagoshtbh I am going to push back against this a bit. I think this idea that Joker on first appearance was very dour and serious is largely popularised by Three Jokers. But i find ot not so if you read both Joker stories in Batman 1. He smiles and does laugh. He clearly had a seditious humour, and is maniacal. He's not as gregariously clownish as later iterations, but these aspects are certainly there. Whereas the criminal in Three Jokers is mostly just an extrapolation of the very first panel of Joker, but not reflective of the first appearance as a whole, which is overal more animated than that. But, the thing is, had the criminal been portrayed more in line with this, he would not be all that different from the clown Joker.
A lot of the faults stem from the simple fact that Nolan has no interest in making movies about people, just ideas or philosophies. Which isn't a bad thing per say... but it certainly should be isolated from greater comic lore
I still look back on this movie and realize that it’s the reason joker is always the main villain I really wish DC would get someone new black mask, Mr freeze anybody.
I kinda agree. I dont hate nolan, he did a great job….but also he did too great of a job making batman grounded and making people forget how much of a cartoon the idea of a batman is. Maybe it’s my new midlife crisis, but I kinda miss the wacky oddball comic book stuff of the Schumacher and burton era.
No he didn't. It only seems that way because of the self caused batman drought WB caused by wanting to be too protective over the brand and thinking little of the audience thinking multiple Batman projects would trigger rage quitting.
His trilogy is a bad representation of the Batman mythos. Ras' sucked and Batman would have saved him, Joker is well acted but isn't the Joker, and Bane is a joke.
The biggest problem I always had with TDK and TDKR was the attempt at realism. Turning Gotham into just another city makes the whole idea seem ridiculous. We're talking about a man who dresses up as a f***ing bat. It only works in the context of a surreal gothic dream-like environment, surrounded by other fantastical characters. I see the 21st century 'gritty realism' movement as largely a failure. It's only really worked in realistic dramas such as The Wire. In the fantastical only the first 3 or 4 seasons of GOT pulled it off, before it descended into Hollywood-ised nonsense. Fantasy cinema needs to rediscover its soul.
@@KoreMike13 successful is a subjective term here seeing how it was arguably done successfully with the Nolanverse. But other examples I can give is the Arkhamverse which is both fantastical but grounded. It's kept in a more realistic in the sense that Gotham looks like an actual city that's more so in the process of being modernized. Characters like Robin aren't teenagers(Tim is at least 19 to 22) who dress up in bright colors but are designed like MMA fighters wearing more dark clothing. I could go on and on. Gotham 1919 which is a universe set 1919 to 1939 that shows Batman in a more believable era where he could exist at his prime. Characters like Ivy and Clayface are shown to be normal humans and much more down to earth crimes, Ivy is a black widow and Clayface is a serial killer who's crimes are meant to draw out Batman for his revenge. But characters like Mister Freeze and Man-Bat exist with their powers but it's left a mystery of how they got them. Arrow exists in a more grounded world but still has metahumans, Immortal madmen and ect. But it's still written in a much more believable way that highlights Oliver is just a human going up against things that exist in the world but are still fantastical.
One of my greatest irritations regarding modern Batman is their tendency to omit Robin. For me Robin is one of the most essential aspect to the Batman's mythos, yet numerous adaptations either ignore them, kill them off or have them be a jobber with many modern Batman stories having Gordon or Alfred frequently take the spot as Batman's partner, hell even fucking Harley Quinn has made more appearances than Dick Grayson is modern stories, which is quite frustrating considering Robin was introduced long before figures like Gordon and Alfred. I really dislike the reasoning that they don't align with the dark and brooding nature of Batman even through there have been numerous dark narratives featuring them and besides we have plenty of stories featuring a dark and brooding Batman who operates solo; why not explore something a little more different? That's the thing that gets to me about Caped Crusaders show like we already have tons and tons and tons of dark and gritty batman stories where he works alone, particularly set during year one. What makes this show that much different from the others? Like there is so much untapped potential with not only with Robin but the whole Bat Family; however, due to the perception that these characters will conflict with the more brooding, solitary nature of Batman, they always rarely come to fruition and don't get me wrong; there've been many Batman stories I enjoy without the Bat Family, but personally, they are the main draw for me and It wouldn't be too much for to ask just include characters like Cassandra Cain or Tim Drake in another Batman project for Christ sake.
Pretty sure Gordon dates back to Batman’s first appearance, according to Wikipedia on the very first panel of his debut issue, so he came before Robin.
Dick being Robin is essential to show Batman go from the dark brooding loner to seeing the light, Dick becoming Nightwing is the peak of that because as Batman has said multiple times, Dick is better than him all the skill and none of the darkness. In Infinite Crisis when Earth 2 Superman tries to win over Bruce to "fix" the world because he says it has gone dark and twisted he asks one question, is his Dick Grayson worse than Earth 2s? Superman can only admit that Earth 1s Nightwing is just as great a man and as such Bruce refuses to change the universe. Barbara becoming Oracle is also a necessity, she gets to be a hero and then after a horrible trauma she finds her own way to still be a hero and Cassandra Cain as Batgirl works because she is the inverse of Batman
I haven’t seen a lot of Batman media. As my favorite as of right now is THE BATMAN LEGO BATMAN MOVIE Mostly due to how it’s kinda does commentary of how Bruce despite his tragic past and broody personality. He’s still a multi-billionaire that’s basically a power fantasy towards “red pill/alpha male” bros. Lego Batman basically deconstructs his character by allowing him to understand that it’s okay to be vulnerable and for people to help you. Along with the fact that he doesn’t defeat Joker by beating the shit out of him but by coming and working together. Even if the villains does goes to jail at the end THE BATMAN Is basically an arc of how Bruce becomes less of an “edgy Batman that’s broody” to more of a symbol of peace that the citizen are less afraid of and has more trust in him. Sorry for my rambling. Just wanna share my thoughts
it could have been fun if the trilogy was comprised of a film about gordon watching gotham fall (and the damages it's done to their elite where we'd be following bruce wane's turmoil boil over into leaving the country for a while) doing his damndest to slow it down by taking on falcone, a film following bruce's return to gotham from his worldly travels finding it rapidly transforming and testing his limits as he honed his senses to counter normal criminals that clearly aren't calling the shots anymore, and the third film following selina finally getting the citywide anarchy she always longed for only to fall in love with the chase due to a certain masked vigilante who can keep up with her, this all coming to a close with her decision between the city she thought she didn't care for and the kind of freedom she thought she wanted
In BTAS, Batman as a detective went to a Joker themed casino as Bruce Wayne to investigate. In Mask of the Phantasm, he was seen to have started to heal because of someone in his life. He told his parents' grave that it just doesn't hurt so bad anymore.
The Dark Knight Returns solved the whole Batman's Vehicles Having Guns problem with one line. "Rubber bullets." Even in the dark future of that story where Batman uses firearms they still are designed to incapacitate rather than kill. Which makes it weird what are supposed to be more standard Batmen have live rounds.
I have come to agree to with the statement “Nolan never understood who Batman is.” It’s fascinating that there really isn’t a crime noir mystery in any of Nolan’s stories. The DCAU Batman and the Brave and the Bold Barman;, two Versions who are absolutely goofier than Nolan’s realistic take, show more maturity and depth than Bale’s Batman. You’re right that the DCAU Batman is more restrained, active, and is quite charitable even when he is playing the obtuse billionaire. Brave and the Bold is yes still haunted by his parents death but he is able to be less grim and has a sense of humor. Like he isn’t going to be ok with Catwoman KILLING a man in front of him (which is what happened in dark knight rises). But an element that is less discussed is the lack of commitment Nolan’s Batman has to being a hero than two animated versions. The DCAU Batman never stopped being Batman until his body couldn’t handle the toll. No mater what the pain or anger he accumulated over the years, no matter what relationships he ruined, Bruce couldn’t never stand aside when crime was amok. Seeing him quit being Batman hits more than Bale’s Bruce Wayne wandering around the mansion. Kevin’s bruce Wayne would then, after years, of being in depressive state, find a way to fight crime by training the new Batman, Terry Guinness, showing his need to stop crime never died. The Brave and the Bold Batman never considers quitting as a positive influence. Yes there was a fanfic written by Alfred of having Bruce marry Selina and having a kid, but notice how Bruce never becomes a hermit. Bruce yes retired in this fanfic, but he passes the role of Batman to nightwing and continues to make appearances in public, like when he creates a Batman museum. To him, the world should remember the good deeds of Batman. When Alfred suggests to the real Bruce Wayne that he could marry Selina, Bruce says no, swearing to continue crime fighting. In the shockingly great finale, Batman when confronting that his show will be cancelled and make away for a darker show, refuses to succumb to network pressures to use a gun, and addresses the audience in a heartfelt manner with every character who appeared in the show “I’ll. Always be there with the hammer of justice, and thank you.” Bale’s Batman quit because he was sad. He didn’t even train the “not Robin” cop properly nor does he have a son-father relationship with “not Robin” cop to teach him how to be a vigilante. What’s critical for Batman and Robin to work is that Bruce provides dick/tim/stepshnje/cassandra/damian a safe role model to work out their issues. Simply giving an inexperienced, angry person the tools to be Batman only leads to more problems-see Jason and Azrael All the while dating a killer. Something bar bith anointed versions would have scoffed at.
Correction: Bales Batman stopped because Gotham didnt need him anymore. He suceeded, he won. If hes whatever Gotham needs him to be, He wont be whatever Gotham doesnt need him to be.
Horrible comparisons. Your comparing apples to oranges. You compare Nolan's work to animation, and completely omit the previous film versions. So what are you implying that the previous films were perfect representations of Batman??? And why don't they have to meet with the same scrutiny as Nolan?
He quit because he allowed himself to be framed for Harvey's crimes and death. He let himself fall from grace, be forsaken by Gotham, if only so that Harvey Dent's legacy remains intact.
@@UnsatMarine to me the animated versions (and adam west) were the best versions of batman on-screen, that's why i made the comparisons to show my reasons. I also haven't seen Patterson's batman yet. But i agree with the thesis of this video; Nolan like tim burton and even joel Schumacher before him didn't understand Batman as much as he believed. But the animated versions of batman didn't quit (as well as adam west's batman). Even the DCAU Batman faced much more poignant tragedies that negatively impacted him than nolan's batman ever did and he kept fighting until he physically could not. And in again, none of these batmen ever tolerated killing not from their foes or their allies. unlike nolan's batman.
To be fair, Gotham City wasn't really "Gothic" until the 1989 movie and Grant Morrison's Arkham graphic novel. Gotham also didn't look decaying until Frank Miller. Before that, Gotham City was pretty much what we got in the Nolan films. I liked what Reeves did with The Batman because Gotham felt like a decent blend of the Burton approach, the Nolan Approach, and what we've gotten from the comics.
@@StraightEdgeKnight19 How is that dumb? 😭 He also doesn't just do that, but reflects on the trilogy, what it did, how it portrayed the whole Batman world and what it means and how all of that contributed to mischaracterization in future adaptations because of the impact it had.
@@declanista that don’t matter son, regardless of the impact the trilogy is still hailed as the best comic book movie trilogy, and TDK is STILL hailed as the best comic book movie of all time. Keep coping.
@@StraightEdgeKnight19 By what standards? As in general film, adaptation, realism, technical characteristics, audience scores, or...? Because as a comic book adaptation, it is very bad. In writing aspects the trilogy is pretty bland and doesn't hold on to the world itself, what it's trying to present and the characters. The dialogue is painful, the understanding of the world, how it works, the characters motivations, who they are. Everything gets to such a superficial level it's insane. Not even mentioning the butchering of Batman's persona and personal reflection and conflicts. There's no doubt the movie The Dark Knight is well loved along with the others in the trilogy (I think Batman Begins is fine, but I don't doubt that everyone agrees that The Dark Knight Rises was a mess), but it's not a perfect adaptation by any means, and much less a good COMIC BOOK adaptation. Still, no matter what the general perception is, the trilogy can be critiqued, analyzed and get every aspect shredded if someone wants lol. Especially if it's considered so important among adaptations, as you say, and has had such a big impact on popular culture.
In the Rebirth comic books, Bruce Wayne doesn't just donate to charity, he goads other billionaires, even evil ones like Lex Luthor in Veronica Cale, into donating to charity. They manipulate Bruce Wayne back, but still.
The dark Knight trilogy is a great set of two movies, but they are very noticeably ashamed to be superhero movies, and outside of brave and the bold it seems like WB is scared to try campy Batman again let alone his larger mythos for the robins
What makes directors like James Gunn, Sam Raimi, Guillermo del Toro, Taika Waititi, Chloe Zhao, Richard Donner, Tim Burton and to a lesser extent Zack Snyder is that they understand comic books, Nolan understands films more.
Depending on who you ask, this could be an unpopular opinion, but comic book characters and their environments should always try to stay close to the artistic eras and visual style time periods from where they first originated; maintaining its appeal. So no matter how old it becomes, it can always maintain its classic yet unique original concepts and doesn't lose it through post-modernity and contemporary zeitgeists, being timeless instead of time locked.
The Ra's vs. "Raish" issue is easy. When it's a bunch of comics geeks, nobody cares about how words are actually pronounced as long as Denny O'Neil pronounces that way. When a film is being released worldwide and going to be seen by a not-insignificant amount of Arabic speakers, the decision to go with the proper (or at least anglicized version) is the way to go.
I love The Dark Knight and Christian Bale is my Favourite Batman, but I won't deny that it's influence on future Batman media is a double edged sword (not helped by many writers taking the wrong lessons from it).
I love the Gothem of the Arkham games. It gives the strongest city full of secrets built on top of an older city filled with darker secrets. The parts of old Gothen underground made of late 1800s architecture were my favorite parts.
Nobody could've explained the problem with modern Joker better than you, amazing video. I really hope we go back to a proper Joker in the DCU or future comics
“He’s out of line..but he’s right!” I would argue that Nolan alone isn’t at fault it’s DC itself they saw how gobsmacked successful TDK was and just wanted to capitalize on it and it hasn’t taken until RECENTLY that they realized “hmm maybe we should try to loosen up from that and let’s also stop putting Batman front and center let’s get it back to the man of tomorrow now like it should be”
the dark knight is an amazing film whose desperate to be a crime thriller about a non descript agent, using high end tech and the surveillance state to like catch a psychotic mad planner with a sort of military background ( the joker's implied backstory is cool)
Mega Man ironically went down this path as a video game franchise. As soon as X7 was released, I don't think it was able to truly recover from that. It peaked at Mega Man Zero 4, and now Z4 casts that shadow over the rest of the entire franchise. Every other version, be it Archie, Fully Charged, or even Secret Level, all had shades of Mega Man Zero. Sonic meanwhile, the franchise it crossed over with, should consider itself lucky to have fans that legitimately care about the world beyond Green Hill Zone, Angel Island, Central City, Empire City, and The United Federation that make up the four major locales. DC meanwhile has bottlenecked itself into Gotham City, Darkseid's Homeworld, the Green Lantern Corps, and Metropolis because of it's attempt at a cinematic universe.
To me at least, Batman the Animated Series remains the best and the quintessential Batman. What made this version of Batman effective to me is balance, the series is chock full of action, suspense, horror, drama, humour, sci-fi and fantasy, there was something for everyone, the writing and the animation balance each other, with some of the best voice acting ever put to animation. The big thing that really stands out to me, that Batman TaS does what the Dark Knight struggled with was Batman's humanity, sure he's a crime fighter and a vigilante, but Batman is still Bruce Wayne, he is still human, and the series really shines Batman's foibles. Episode "Nothing to Fear" we see Bruce's fear of shaming his parents, that he will fail to live up to hold his slain parents good name, nevertheless, Batman overcomes his fear with the icon line "I am vengeance, I am the night, I am BATMAN". Another iconic episode is "Perchance to Dream", this is my favourite episode of all time, this is one of the few times when the main character is Bruce Wayne - not Batman, the majority of the screentime is starring Bruce, this is quite rare, and I love this because it shows Bruce's deepest desires, to have his parents back, and not living the nightmare of seeing their deaths. But of course, it's a dream created by the Mad Hatter, and no matter how attractive the dream is, Bruce will not live a lie, his valour and heroic qualities are deeply ingrained, the Mad Hatter underestimated Batman's qualities, who failed because he already lives in a wonderland, thus couldn't grasp that this quality is absent in Batman. Perhaps one of the most interesting episodes is "I am the Night", this is one of the darkest episodes in Batman TaS, it takes place on the anniversary of the murder of his parents, Batman is dreary and glum, that no matter how much he fights crime, there is no end in sight, and when Commissioner Gordon is wounded in the line of duty, Batman reaches his lowest point, another person he cared for is shot by a criminal, but the episode ends with Batman thwarting the criminal when he tries to kill Gordon, Batman realises that as long as Gordon is fighting crime, he should fight crime too, and that his heroism is sorely needed. Another episode I should also mention is "Appointment in Crime Alley", the location where his parents are murdered, but despite this, Batman is still hopeful for a better world, he fights crimes to defend the remaining good left in this troubled neighbourhood, and this is what the Dark Knight is missing. Batman is more than just brooding and bleak hero, he is still optimistic, holding out for something better, Christopher Nolan's Batman leaves out too much of Batman's humanity and humility, after all, Bruce Wayne was sympathetic to Dick Grayson after his parents were murdered by Tony Zucco, then trained him into being Robin, the Dynamic Duo is another example of Batman's humanity, two heroes trying to bring justice to Gotham City.
Its a shame how TAS has spawned such a truly toxic fanbase. Where exactly has the Nolanverse Batman shown a "lack of humanity". If anything, its quite the opposite.
@@spencermalley10 Dude, nobody's attacking you if you like the Nolan movies, a lot of people did and do. How is saying TAS is a great example of how to do Batman, another take many people tend to agree with or at least understand the position of even if they disagree, make OP "toxic"?
@@gregvs.theworld451 The toxicity is when people say TAS is "the only way to do Batman" and put down other takes on the character for not alligning with it.
To me the Nolan films helped in focus on grounded Batman being the ONLY way to do Batman which to me is ridiculous. The League of Assassins are just watered down and I dare admit it but I wanted the League to be VERY similar to how the assasins are done in John Wick films. Having Ras Al Ghul control a secret society where he is the one that controls all crime and sits has the HEAD of the High Table so to speak like in the John Wick films and making them actual killers makes perfect sense. It took me watching John Wick 3 and Hallie Berry character looking like straight Talia made me see how Nolan kinda wasted the potential of my favorite Batman villain and his family the Al Ghuls.
Sounds contradictory. So you don't like Nolan...but you want a bloodbath like in John Wick??? Nawww. Now if you had said the League should be more like The Hand in Daredevil, then yeah I would have agreed to that.
@UnsatMarine NOT at all , the League being Ninjas comes off has stereotypical. I'm not saying you can't have ninjas, but they're also trained killers. I like how the John Wick films we have a secret society system. Its nothing to do with the violence , making the point that they are trained killers and have had members who aren't Ninjas at all in their group, like David Cain , Merlin, the list goes on. League of Assasins aren't magical Ninjas in the same way has The Hand. Also, the secrecy of this society and having rules. Also, you can go into the aspect of the Hashasin where the term Assassin comes from in Arabic. Mystical aspect is Ras Al Ghul and Lazurus Pit.
@UnsatMarine Also who said I didn't like Nolan ? I like his films but his films are lacking. The obvious is using " Realistic " Batman villains and not actually using them. Andy makes it clear in the video like Carmine Falcone who literally is a foot note. Ras was fine in the films but it was so funny he wanted realistic Batman but used a villain with supernatural elements same with Bane. I'm shocked Nolan series didn't touch characters like Hugo Strange , Penguin or Roman Sionis
I think Nolan’s trilogy helped legitimise the Batman brand in the mainstream again after Schumacher obliterated it. I feel part of expediting that process meant entertaining a narrower, more compact vision of the mythos that did away with a lot of the facets that comic book enthusiasts have come to know and enjoy.
My biggest issue is that the films brought on this realism tide to Batman media, and now people ignore what the villains are supposed to represent and only talk about how unrealistic stuff is. The metaphor's are being ignored in favour of trying to outsmart the source material.
Objection: Keaton's Batman is never actually doing charitable things either outside of a mention off-screen, and he murders people with machine guns and bombs. He's pretty much The Punisher. It's better implied that he's not necessarily much of a hero tbf and still far too disturbed. Also, two of those examples were literal murders, namely Joker, and One Face. [TLJ isn't Two Face, you'll never convince me], when that's an option, of course there are more solutions. As for Nolan, one has to remember that terrorism was all the rage in 2005, and every other TV show was a crime show...or reality TV, and there was a lot of pressure to not be Batman & Robin. And like M. Night Shyamalan, The Wachowskis, George Lucas, or Rian Johnson, characters take a backseat to themes in Nolan films. They all take the saying, "Little people talk people, average people talk events, great minds talk ideas" way too seriously. I'm baffled that you didn't consider the ending when Batman perma-retires and runs off with Anne Hathaway, which I'd argue shows that he has moved on, and has grown. And in a real-world scenario, yeah, Batman has to be a phase. And while there is a warmth in chemistry, it's Keaton's Batman that doesn't get to run away, and his relationship with Vale before fails. And until a comics continuation, there is no Robin figure at all. Look, I still prefer Burton to Nolan, and I find Reeve's to be best too, but I think you're missing a few parts. Cheers mate.
In retrospect, it appears that Christopher Nolan's true ambition was to helm a James Bond film, cleverly using the Batman franchise as a stepping stone to achieve that goal.
People complain about race swaps yet no one ever seems to complain about Bane, Ra's, and Talia being white washed. Hell Talia, Ra's, and Damien Wayne constantly get portrayed as just looking white in media
@@MILDMONSTER1234 That is partly because comic artists often ignore the nuances of a character's racial background (like how a lot of recent X Men artists portray Sunspot with light Hispanic features, even though Roberto is supposed to be Afro Brazilian).
@@eamonndeane587 This, its definitely better now but still. For as much crap as the harley quinn show gets at least that show actually remembered to make Damien look like a mixed race kid
@MILDMONSTER1234 I'm not a fan of the Harley Quinn show (a lot of the humour doesn't vibe with me AT All), but I can begrudgingly respect the animators for recognising that nuance. X Men 97 depicting Sunspot as just looking tanned, though? That's worthy of an eye roll....
Oh boy, get ready when Harvey Dent and Commissioner Gordon got blackwashed. But I do agree, I would have preferred a Hispanic actor take the role of Bane. Surprisingly, Injustice made me love the character more since he was fun and brutal to play as.
One thing that I do not like about this Nolan's realistic approach to Batman. Fantastical Batman is it supposed to have a lot of high-tech gadgets embedded within his costume. While at the same time still being able to fight at full capacity against 30 well trained henchmen at the first floor of a building. And still having the ability to fight 30 more and the big bad boss man.While still showing efficiency without breaking a sweat.
I think this isn’t directly Nolan’s fault I think it’s just execs wanting to use what worked before to guarantee money. I do agree that they don’t use most of what makes Batman who he is but Christopher Nolan’s Batman in the end is tied to Christopher Nolan’s story and the end result is having a great film with the Dark Knight and having a lot of people misunderstanding who Batman really is outside of the Dark Knight. This also accounts for the villains as well. In my opinion I still see Nolan’s series as a positive since it added new ideas and concepts that people at the time haven’t thought of for Batman or the superhero genre in general, anything that gives out new ideas for any genre is a positive, only when it becomes saturated is when we get these problems.
I was just thinking today about how the Joker should be written in modern stories. Tbh I feel like none of the existing Jokers, not Mark Hammil, not Keith Ledger, not even the original comic Jokers ever really capitalized on his potential fully. Joker should not be self-aware. And he always is. When he jokes or taunts Batman, it always feels like he knows he's evil snd so any idea that he's just sick and needs help kinda goes out the window. He's just fucking with Batman and everyone else and getting away with it on an insanity plea. But he never feels like he's not in control. Like he doesn't know what he's doing. If I wrote the Joker, I'd actually not make him a main villain. He should be a real wild card, either helping other villains or even Batman out but then twisting that help with a cruel irony purely for the sake of having a laugh. He should feel incomprehensible, like his sense of humour is not just dark, but alien. And he wouldn't just kill people either. He'd do weird shit too. Like, kidnapping a dozen carriages with babies in them and turning them into a racecar that he rushes into a highway. His schemes should be as hilarious as they are dangerous and sometimes even fucking stupid. He should even act against his own well-being for a laugh, be willing to be the butt of the joke. This is what true chaos would be. This is what would make Joker even scarier as a foil to Batman: how could a detective who solves crimes through reason predict an adversary who has no idea what he's doing?
I feel like your over estimating the media literacy with joker in modern day, everyone thinks hes crazy and more importantly mentally ill, people look at the dark knight and the joker movie and will say "yeah a mentality ill person would do that." When all evidence to the contrary says otherwise. They have been too subtle with the evil element, to add to your modern joker make him refuse to take a label have him refuse to be called crazy and have the system keep him alive because they need to label his actions to justify his horrible crimes. "Hes an outlier, hes sick, no one sane could be capable of all this" make the audience grapple with the fact this is just a terrible person who wants to be horrible and batman with his greatest strength and flaw, his believe that anyone can be better and deserves every chance to try.
Exactly, the best Joker is one that just shows up at the worst possible time and he's either going to commit an atrocity or do something silly and dissappear again, and Batman never knows which. He should be almost like a running gag.
I can’t wait for someone to just say: he’s a dude dressed as a bat with a teen bird-themed sidekick, who fights a clown, a walking snowman, a man who likes crosswords, a scary plant lady, etc. So, what’s the point of taking this seriously? Can’t have a comic without comedic elements, and subsequently suspending belief
I think its ironic that looking back on it, out of all the scenes that stick with me in the dark knight are probably the scene in which batman realizes that the jokers gunman were hostages, showing him actually thinking things through after all the other complex bait-and-switch plans joker did, and the follow-up scene where one of the intimate's throwing the controller for the explosives' on civilians ship, showing a more optimistic and hopeful view on society that ultimatly shows how the joker was wrong about how people would kill each other brought to there most desperate moments. These two scenes, while also really good scenes, I think I like the most is because actually shows glimpeses of the dark knight being a batman story rather than a story with batman
17 years later and you guys are still doing the "Nolan doesn't understand Batman and RUINED the character" and you're blaming him for stuff other directors did? K
As someone who adores Batman and his rogues I missed when Batman villains were just allowed to be Like I want Batman to go up his villains when they have petty human motivations His villains are the best when their motivation are understandable even if we disagree with them Like can’t the Mad Hatter be a creepy stalker and criminal not what the more “grounded” version makes him Hell Joker was allowed to be fun without a grand scheme
It's funny how at around the same time "Batman: The Brave and the Bold" started which included comedy, nonsense, aliens and magic. Heck, characters sometimes sing.
I think Batman as a whole is honestly pretty edge lord friendly. Especially post Nolan. I was going into my freshman year when DK came out and I was honestly always annoyed how everyone was so obsessed with joker and didn’t seem to really care about Batman. By the time I left high school Superman became and still is my favorite superhero. Stories like for all seasons, secret origin, all star, last son, new 52 Action Comics, Kingdom Come, Brainiac and watching STAS really made me realize how great he was.
Showing my age but when Batman 89 came out people very much still dressed like that in major cities. Definitely on the tail end of the trend but still in fashion.
The worst thing you can do when making a superhero movie, DC in particular. Is try to make it realistic, grounded, and try to make it feel like it takes place in OUR world. When it shouldn't feel like it does, because it DOESN'T. all you are doing by making that creative decision is dampening the creativity, characters, locations, fun, uniqueness, and heart and soul of the entire universe
I feel like this is a symptom of an over all issue in comic based media. When a hit comic adaptation drops it’s like that becomes a baseline for everything else to draw from, including the original comics themselves. Look at marvel for example, for years the comics would morph and shift characters around to better reflect the movies coming out, insert character gets a fresh new run to jump into etc. it’s like that new adaptation is though of as legitimate or there’s a thought of brand synergy. So even though the original was what made the character iconic now we have to reflect the adaptation instead of it being its own thing.
![Which Superhero Villain Should [Not] Be President (Or World Ruler)?](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LzEk1KgtBMg/mqdefault.jpg)
![Which Superhero Villain Should [Not] Be President (Or World Ruler)?](/img/tr.png)
We are constantly robbed of an incredible Mr Freeze story because writers are scared to tap into the more fantastical aspects of Batman.
They're just afraid nobody will ever be able to take a live-action Freeze seriously anymore after Arnold Freeze.
The Gotham Mr. Freeze was pretty good.
@@nicksorenson940 Arnold Freeze was my favourite. I was 5 years old. It's okay to make silly batman movies for 5 year olds.
Or scarecrow
Same with a horror movie inspired Man-Bat story.
I once had a dream in which I was a bank teller and the bank got robbed by The Joker and his gang. During the robbery, he handed me his gun and said "Hold this!" So I did, and then I followed when he walked away in case he wanted it back. When I woke up, I thought to myself, that's what makes the Joker work. He has to be so high on his own supply that you just go with it out of fear of what he might do. Jack Nicholson, Mark Hamill, and Heath Ledger all understood that.
That’s honestly an incredible dream, thank you for sharing
I legit read “Hold this” in Hamill’s voice.
But then the Philosophical Joker came around in Heath Ledger, most likely taking inspiration from Killing Joke, and now everyone wants Philosophical Joker, which ruined Joker.
I would blame Killing Joke for ruining Joker, but it wasn't even meant to be a Canon Comic, just a One-shot. It was made Canon for the Popularity, which wrecked Joker.
Now Joker is basically Anarky.
Good dream 👍. At least you were safe
that sounds like a mark hamill joker thing lol, I could totally picture that, I can practically hear him
The most damning thing about all modern takes on the Joker being molded into that type is that it makes him predictable, and if the word "predictable" even remotely applies to the Joker then that's a fundamental failure.
One of my favourite moments of Jokers unpredictability is in 'The Batman' where he decides to dress up as Batman and fight "crime" and everyone is just confused and scared shitless. Like Penguin can't fucking comprehend it, it messes with him so hard. Joker doesn't go after pure innocents, he goes after people he twistedly considers criminals like those whl take too many items through the express checkout or people littering the streets. Not technically criminals yet he us using the general social contract and soft rules of society to cause absolute fucking mayhem. It's great and a prime example of why The Joker is such a great villain because you should almost never be able to predict what insane shit he will pull next.
Joker is best when he is comedically unhinged and messed up. I wish we got Jokerised fish in the Dark Knight trilogy because that would have just been so messed up and insane for it to come from Ledgers Joker of all characters.
@Butterwinkle you hit the nail on the head. Joker is his best when he does some classic, old-school capeshit
In the Arkham games, he was still a psychopath but he was still funny
@@Butterwinkle joker8zed fish in nolans movie would be epic
Nolan’s Batman should’ve remained its own unique, grounded take, not a template and excuse for edgelord filmmakers to take all the fun out of the franchise.
The Nolan trilogy is overrated
@ Thank you random contrarian.
@@roberthewes3148 I like Ledger's Joker a a self contained thing, but tbh loathe when it bleeds into other iterations. Even something such as fanfiction, even the decent ones, suffer imo from it as in written format seems to highlight how different that Joker in fact is in mannerism, speech pattern, where the emphasis is on the look etc compared to comic book (meaning golden age, bronze age etc. Written by such as: Bill Finger, O'Neill, Englehart, Dini and Dixon. These, for me, truly get the Joker, and should be the model to follow. Whereas Moore, Miller etc wrote alt versions that are meant as one off iterations).
@@MidnightIsolde Same. Even then, I acknowledge the biggest flaw in Ledger’s Joker is that his plan is way too well thought-out for an “Agent of Chaos.” It’s one of the things I prefer about Jack’s Joker, he just kinda has fun messing with people, doing whatever he feels that day.
@roberthewes3148 yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with showing Joker is a cunning character, able to dream up and enact crazy schemes. That's a key part of his character. But, thinking about it, I think it is more of a case where he does just do whatever is fun to him and likes to show off, but he is clever enough to actually enact it in a cunning and out of the box way. Joker without is intellect is just a fool, but with it... he's a nutter that happens to be genius.
I think the main issue with Ledger that you point out is not so much that he's a good planner, as Joker should be that, but that he's perhaps too serious about it in a way, which is why the agent of chaos stuff rings untrue. That has also led to people post Ledger latching onto Joker as having some deep purpose or profound philosophy. This is harmful to the character imo
I think in general, The Dark Knight convinced a bunch of people in Hollywood that superheroes have to be more "realistic".
in movies yes otherwise it looks goofy
@@groupvucic2235 no, movies can be goofy and superheroes, specially the ones in dc are goofy as hell that’s what makes them interesting
@ general audience won't watch goofy superhero movies, neither will I
@@groupvucic2235 Speak for yourself. General audience loves the Sam Rami’s Spider-Man trilogy and they were goofy as hell .
@Megaronus-l4v they weren't goofy
The Dark Knight trilogy also affected other comic book movies and sci-fi franchises by pushing for a "grounded realism" by removing supernatural elements like gods, aliens, and magic and include only scientific tech, powers, and costumes that are plausible and practical, because turning green via gamma radiation exposure and a 108 meter kaiju are somehow more plausible than extraterrestrial life and ghosts.
This is why I’m glad Gunn is in charge of DC films now. He’s never shied away from the bizarre or outrageous elements in comics. Just knowing that the upcoming Superman movie is going to have not only the Thanagarians and the Lantern Corps but also frigging Krypto? It’s a breath of fresh air.
Here’s hoping that carries through to any new Batman films.
@@animeotaku307Nature is healing
It's the worst part of comic book movies now imo! Where's the whimsy where's the fantasy where's the fun in any of it!!
@@animeotaku307And yet
Everyone on the internet won’t stop crying about how James Gunn’s Superman is going to fail even before the film even comes out
One good thing you can about Deadpool is that it showed you can have Wolverines comic costume and have it look great
This is pretty obvious to Batman fans because it's gotten to the point where 95% of Batman's rogues gallery and supporting characters are unusable.
We need to get back to letting Batman be Batman again so we can actually see some Batman stories get adapted, for once.
And robins, it's insane how little Robin stuff we get nowadays
@flashtheshapeshafter I remember a Comment recently from someone who is arguing against seeing The Batman Sequels use Robin and Batgirl. I hope Reeves brings them in, at the very least, just to shut these Folks up.
The fact that we have gotten barely any batfamily media in live action is a testament to that
What the world isn't ready for: Live Action Kite Man
What the world REALLY needs: Live Action Kite Man
@WalkmanWillWalkAllOverYou all DC had to do to compete with the MCU is do an Avengers ensemble movie but with a Batfamily skin it's not that hard to do since WB/DC has the rights to those characters
The last segment on Batman needing his family is a huge part of why I love the Lego Batman movie. That one does a phenomenal job at the depiction of Batman as "that little boy who doesn't want to lose his family again".
Give me a Batman movie deep in the comic timeline where he has the whole family and the DCU is running in full detail in the background. These endless reboots keep telling only the most boring parts of the story and I swear I'm getting PTSD from seeing Bruce's parents get merc'd over and over and over again.
@Pentarax I get why people love The Lego Batman film, but Lego Batman worked better for me in small doses as a Supporting character in the films he spun off from.
When it comes to light-hearted Batmans, I prefer Batman: The Brave and the Bold's take.
@@NoHiro-qc4dvDCU’s version will be giving us some of the bat family as it will have Damien Wayne Robin so that will mean we could also get Nightwing etc
I love Wayne Family webcomic because of how important Bat Family is for him.
Lego Batman is just a stoner movie.
DC and learning the wrong lesson, name a more iconic duo.
DC and box office bombs
@@MulletSuperman DC is in a polyamorous relationship with learning the wrong lesson and box office bombs
DC and having zero faith in other properties that aren’t named Batman or Superman
I'd say Batman and Robin but DC disagrees 😂
DC and comic book movies being ashamed to be comic book movies.
Studios took the wrong lessons from Nolan's trilogy
Instead of thinking, "Hey, look when a good writer and director have the creative freedom to faithfully adapt the character and show the world why said character is great, its successful and people love it."
They think "Wow a dark realistic movie, this sells lets turn all of characters into that"
The Joker is such a edge lord in the comics now, he isn’t even funny anymore
they should change his name to The Stand Up Comedian then, amiright? ayyyy
He was fine in the Arkham games
@@paladinheadquarters7776yea that’s why they said in the comics lol
Those are games. That was a decade ago. Pay attention.@@paladinheadquarters7776
@hashaskinner And overused.
Both him and Harley Quinn.
The Dark Knight is in par with Alan Moore's Watchmen with how they - despite being excellent works of fiction - became horrible influences on the film and comics industries.
This is the best take I think; a thing can be good in it's own right while it's greater impact is bad
Because people miss the point on what made them such great stories.
I also see Tolkien's Lord of the Rings the same way. The books are amazing but their impact/influence on the fantasy genre really reminded him of how much Moore fucked the whole comic industry... by making good art really
I swear to god, if I read one more fantasy book featuring elves that can live for thousands of years AND have pointy ears
AND are better than human in most discipline AND are great with bow, I'm gonna strangle myself with Galadriel's hair
along with Miller's Dark Knight Returns and Moore's Killing Joke, yes. three incredible stories that had a disastrous impact on comics.
@@xeno-kun983 i feel a bit iffy about putting tolkien in the same bubble as others have mentioned mostly bc his writings were super detailed in depth that you could actually mistake it for history (to an uneducated person tho), creating new languages etc. it feels unfair to really lump him in with the other considering that he revitalized fantasy that was going into decline.
I once told my mother that Batman was referred to as the world’s greatest detective and that it was a big part of his character in the comics after showing her the Nolan movies and she looked at me like I said Batman is an alien merman who played the bagpipe. This is a person who grew up loving Adam West’s Batman, who was able to figure out all kinds of crazy shit so I think you’re right about the Nolan trilogy leading casual audiences to believe the detective element isn’t important to Batman
He's a terrible detective in the comics, though. I wish I could post a link.
@@Rengokuo4o6 I mean, you could explain what you said
@@Rengokuo4o6when people say “in the comics” you have to be more specific. There have been thousands of issues of Batman comics with hundreds of writers. In some he’s a great detective, in others he stumbles along so the mystery stretches out and it’s exciting for the reader.
@Pencilman246
He's terrible in the long Halloween.
Go on UA-cam and such for a video on Batman being the worst detective. You'll see it.
Except for cheap flexing by authors, Batman is a pretty terrible or mid detective.
I will remember the video that did a breakdown of this.
I've seen a comment somewhere a long time ago that said something along the lines of "if Superman represents an idealistic hope that everyone wants to believe in, then Batman represents a more grounded hope - that someone can clean up our home without being a superhuman. A person whose weakness isn't about power scaling, or a special stone - but his own psyche. He grapples with his shortcomings the way anyone else would: he makes allies, he tries to give opportunities to those who have experienced similar misfortunes as himself. He continues to believe that an old friend can fight his demons and win. He does everything he can because he wants to make sure what happens to him, what happened to his Robins, never happens to anyone else again."
Burton’s is probably my favorite visually. Gotham actually looking like a modern Gothic horrorscape, the extremely memorable Bat suit and gadgets, Joker’s makeup looking like the character just leaped off the comic book page, it’s darkly gorgeous.
It's actually incredible how, as someone who does like those films (even if I haven't seen them in forever) my immediate thought upon seeing the title was "yeah, probably." There's a lot to like about them, they're great action thrillers, and I think they're an interesting take on the characters, but the fact that so many iterations are trying to be too much like them sucks honestly. Also Heath Ledger Joker was a great villain, but now so many Jokers are trying to be too much like him to the point where Joker's whole clown theme feels like it's taken a back seat. I like Joker because he's supposed to be both threatening and funny in a twisted sort of way, but too many newer takes hone in just on the threatening part. And to an honestly ridiculous degree too. And Batman himself can do a lot of cool super hero action stuff, but the detective part of him, and his empathy for his villains feel like they've been largely forgotten about.
"If you can't imagine your iteration of Batman counseling a troubled youth, you've failed to write Batman"
Totally butchered the saying but it goes something like that.
@@bobaorc7839 Think it's more along the lines of, "If you can't imagine your Batman comforting a crying child, that's not Batman; that's The Punisher in a silly hat", accredited to Red of Overly Sarcastic Productions :3
I had a couple things that came to mind instantly.
How almost every interpretation of the Joker since has tried to compete with Ledger, by being crazier without making sense (Leto), an uglier psychological profiler (Barry) or.. idk what Phoenix is lol.
The lack of any fantastical or meta villains has translated to a heavy focus on the gangs and a few select villains shown in the least fantastical way possible (Joker, Harley, Penguin, Catwoman, Two-Face, Bane with minimum Venom). As if the more it's a noir, the more it must be realistic.
Batman only having a relationship with Alfred, Gordon and Catwoman. Robins, Batgirls and anything else resembling a Batfamily or friends are rare (excluding Harvey Dent).
@@navonmyhand7999
"He's crazy! He just wants to watch the world burn!" Characterization that represents Nolan's fundamental misunderstanding of both mental illness and what motivates people to commit crimes.
I'll never forget how TDK led to that horrible comic run where Joker cut off his own face because the author was trying so hard to out-edgy everyone. Please someone let Grant Morrison or one of the other good Batman writers handle the screenplay of the next movie, movie writers just don't get it. Don't even get me started on the latest film turning the Riddler into the Zodiac killer when Hush exists and would have fit that role much better.
My favorite Batman moment came in the Justice League Unlimited epilogue when Batman comforts Ace on the swing. I actually teared up a little. No agenda, not trying to get her to take her guard down so he can trick her. Just genuine empathy for what she’s going through
If there’s one word I can use to describe Batman’s core character, it’s “empathy”
Edit: omg I genuinely wrote this before I saw that you mentioned it in this video! Haha awesome
Yet that same character. In that same universe managed to disillusion and fracture his own proteges. Both Robin's actually hate Bruce by their adult years. And that same character had an affair with his " sons" ex girlfriend and partners daughter.......who he also just flung aside. By the timeline of Batman Beyond. Bruce Wayne is an old cynical, rotten man who has alienated every one. Batman sits with ACE because the DCAU had a Batman hard on. And turned what used to be a intriguing hero into a God like Deux ex Machina.
@@auntiewewe972 lol ummm ok
@auntiewewe972 In the Case of Tim, we should take that case with a grain of salt, especially since the Joker was mind controlling him through a microchip (making it very dubious to me that Tim genuinely hated Bruce).
@eamonndeane587 true. But also we find out Bruce totally ghosted Tim after the ordeal. And never even once talked with him afterwards. So my point was simply where did this
" compassionate " caring Bruce come from? If he was do empathetic towards Ace , why not towards the ones he was closest to? The writers simply made Batman whatever they needed for the story. In my mind Batman would be the one character that saw it for what it was. And not of gotten emotionally involved
@auntiewewe972 Perhaps because Bruce was ashamed of failing to prevent Tim from being tortured and mentally ravaged by the Joker?
The biggest flaw in Nolan's trilogy is that he named the first one "Batman Begins" and didn't name the last one "Batman Ends"
"the Dark Knight Rises" is just a rubbish title. It excludes Batman Begins and adds to the rubbish trend of adding random words to the title starting with R.
Funnily, I often thought it should've been called "the Batman".
@@PauLtus_BBatman didn’t end in the movie. Bruce Wayne ended and retired but Batman came back which is why it’s called rises. The literal end of the movie is John Blake rising as the end Batman.
and the 2nd one "Batman Continues"
Couldn't. WB needs to milk that cash cow dry
@@nondescriptcat5620 3rd one "Batman Again". The 4th "Batman's Still There".
It's like when the Watchmen comic came out, and suddenly everyone wanted "gritty, realistic superpowered beings with chips on their shoulders." Look what they did to Superman!
Man of Steel is more interstellar like than it is dark and gritty. It's a more mythological and grandiose take on the character.
@@supernerd4677but it wasn't executed as well as majority of DCEU
@@Spantzcatdog I disagree.
@@supernerd4677 please, animation is way better handling fantastical and grounded elements of comic books better most of the time. People give live action superhero movies too much credit when they only get one thing correct but mess up other things.
@@Spantzcatdog I think you should give filmmakers a chance to interpret the properties in their own distinctive way. Keep an open mind. You might be surprised.
I think one of the best ways to point out the randomness of Joker’s Cruelty is through the death of Jason Todd. Joker beats him half to death with a crowbar just because he felt like it, when Jason’s mom points out how Batman is gonna react when he sees what Joker did, Joker replies with, “Hadn’t thought of that”, he then decides to blow up the warehouse so Batman doesn’t find out he did it.
One of the most impactful Batman moments, one of the most famous deaths in DC, something always listed as the worst thing Joker has ever done… and he did it just for the Hell of it.
There was no point to it like Barbara getting shot in Killing Joke, no elaborate plan like when he got Superman to kill Lois, he did it just because it was the first thing that came to mind.
Or even in Btas, in the episode ‘The man who killed Batman’, Joker sentences said man to death Via a vat of acid at Batmans funeral, locking Sid in a casket with Batmans cowl, having a conveyor belt that wheels him into the vat, with Sid desperately apologising as he’s wheeled inside. After the casket sinks, Joker stand there, sighs, and then says “Well that was fun! Who’s for Chinese?”
Sometimes Joker just needs to be a guy who either doesn’t have a point to his cruelty, or is doing it for the most terrifyingly pettiest of reasons
Hard agree. I almost never lean towards the sentiment "This Joker isn't being funny enough to balance out what he's doing/There doesn't seem to be joke in this so he shouldn't be doing it" because that's hardly integral to his character and even if it was then the joke can easily be him doing it because of the randomness of it. He's for all intents and pun filled purposes the Joker's wild.
"No, Alfred, I don't use guns. I'll never use guns. But I'll put them on my motorcycle in case someone else wants to use it." -- Nolan's Batman (probably)
He's fine using them to say, destroy an obstacle. He just doesn't kill people.
"I would never kill... I will, however, fire a rocket into a parking garage and do hundreds of thousands of dollars in property damage"
He's always had guns on his vehicles, still doesn't mean he'd be blasting fools away with them. They are tools used to remove obstacles. Also him not using hand weaponry ties more into his childhood trauma and justice philosophy which one would think is obvious.
@@aneasteregg8171 he straight up blew up like 20 dudes at Ra’s’ dojo in the Himalayas.
Burton.
The Nolanverse pronunciation of the name "falcone" is actually accurate. It's an American bastardization of the Italian pronunciation which would be Fahl-cohn-eh.
Yep. Same with Raws al Ghul being closer to the Arabic pronunciation. Every single Arabic speaker I’ve talked to in person and found online tells me that Raysh is not the Arabic pronunciation. It just got popular because of the Animated series.
@@Ren_Davis0531 Raysh sounds more like Hebrew, which is odd. Ghul is still pronounced incorrectly and would be more like "gh-au-ll" with a more gutteral "g" and a deeper "l". Honestly Ra's Al-Shaytan would've been a better name but it's understandable why they didn't use it.
@@hyperion3145
Because Raysh is the Hebrew pronunciation. They got it mixed up and went with Hebrew instead of Arabic.
My favorite Batman comic I’ve ever read is Detective Comics no 1017, where it’s all about Batman trying and failing to save a orphan from dying of hypothermia due to running away from an orphanage that Bruce donates money and technology to. Children had been mysteriously disappearing, and Bruce is visibly upset by Miguel’s (the orphan) passing. He resolves the case not as Batman, but as Bruce Wayne who turns the orphanage director in to the police, but still punches the guy for good measure. It’s the most human I’ve seen Batman in a single issue story in a long time and really gets to the core of what Batman’s mission really is and that punching the Riddler isn’t the whole of it. It’s also the issue he flat out says that Superman is his favorite superhero. It’s canon.
I really hate how people keep making Superman and Batman hate each other (looking at you, Frank Miller). They may have their disagreements, but on the whole they know that they’re both working towards the same goal and have a lot of respect for the other.
@animeotaku307 they should only fight each other without mind control involved ONE TIME, and it should be when they first meet.
@@Djinsin
They shouldn't even have a dynamic since it leads to dumbing down Superman to make Batman look smart.
Writers should explore other Batman's friends who fit into his world better.
@@Rengokuo4o6 that's a weakness of the writers. Not of the character dynamic
My biggest issue with the Nolan Batman is that he's the Ayn Randian reinterpretation I didn't need. Batman has been such a complex character for a long time, and I think a lot of people reduce him to beating up poor people or whatever and forget some of his crucial character building. Where's the Bruce Wayne who tries to get all of his rich friends to reinvest in Gotham so that people have better lives? Where's the Bruce Wayne who donates his time to a soup kitchen? Batman cares about the citizens of Gotham.
I have a joke about the Nolan films that is quite relevant. Nolan Batman films have three categories of character: criminal, cop and Batman. All characters fit into this, there is no civilian perspective. This is post 911 Batman and they made him a supercop.
When Lego Batman has a better Batman than you, you've got a problem.
it kind of took me years after watching that to sort of understand who Ayn Rand was.
i think i heard the name loosely after coming across some scholarship with her name on it in 2010/2011
but i never read any of her book, all i heard from others was that she was kind of bad news
also big non-fiction books scared me attention-span wise 😅
the beating up poor people jokes and narrative line that i saw for a long while online was weird and made me kind of feel bad for liking Batman. i sort of felt like i must've missed some kind of subtext that i wasn't really seeing due to not being as well read and stuff. Also my libraries at the time had limited Batman material to check and stuff.
@@TwinRiver100 when a character like Batman is around for this long, its really easy for him to get confused. I mean he first appeared in comics in 1939, and he has quite the legacy. He has been Flanderized to hell and back in a lot of media, and it's sad to see him reduced the way he is when he has the potential to talk about really important topics like wealth disparity, trauma, mental health, empathy, crime, law and so much more.
Nolan's Batman established this detached lone wolf Batman for modern film audiences that we have yet to recover from. Ayn Rand's philosophy has gripped a lot of people and even if Nolan doesn't say he's read her work, it is very similar to the thought process. Rand's got a very libertarian view of a big strong man whose so focused on his own self interest that everyone else's happiness does not even factor in. In a similar vein, he helped write the new Superman movie which suffers from the same problem. Batman can be paranoid and brooding, but he also wants to uplift the people around him. People forget the positive aspects of Batman and kind of reduce him to cop 2 a lot of the time which is such a deep shame.
Lego Batman is the best Batman movie ever made. Period.
The soup kitchen part reminded me of the BTAS episode where he hears about some of the regulars going missing and right afterwards goes undercover to find out what happened to them.
Nolan Batman would never
@@animeotaku307 that might be the episode I'm thinking of. And then he meets the poor guy and just gives him an awesome job because the guy needs help. You know- because Batman uses his resources to help people.
I miss gothic Batman and gothic Gotham.
Also freaky villains.
The Batman and Gotham Knights
@@TheMockingjay74 Kelley Jones Batman
@FatallyParasocial The adventures of unleashed military cop dressed in a bat costume in the fairly regular Am City.
Gothic/Art-deco gotham works best
I do agree with the Realistic Batman, with no fantastical villans getting really old. Batman's villlians are only rivaled by Spider-man. I'm also very tired of the Joker in general. Massively over used.
Man this is a bold title but I actually 100% agree with you. The Dark Night feels like it was ground 0 for all the edgy batman stories. It feels like a lot got lost from Batman when he became an edgelord in so many stories and I honestly do think a lot of it started with TDK
This what makes me appreciate brave and the bold more. It show that "batman isn't edgy stuff, ut can also have fantastic and camp stuff" while still showing that grim and noir stuff. I also love how he plays off with other heroes ether by being the striaght man, the blue clam oni to the red hot oni, or an mentor to new heroes
The issue is that it was the first good Batman movie in a while, and people decided that "dark and gritty" was why the movie was good.
Similar to how everyone jumped into making grimdark Magical Girl shows after Madoka.
@@arahman56 Nolan's films may have been credited as saving the Batman film franchise after Schumacher's last movie took it way too much back into cartoonish camp for the fans' liking, but I do think it also helped influence future comic book movies a bit too much into the opposite direction as well, which has its own downsides.
Even if fans want Batman movies they can take seriously it shouldn't have to mean losing any of the fantastical style of the older movies in the process to do it, because everyone just wants to continue emulating Nolan's much more realistic take on the character.
@@starmaker75 The Brave and the Bold also didn't shy away from being dark when it wanted to be. The episode with the Doom Patrol ends with them all dying because Batman failed to save them despite trying his best.
@@matthewgagnon9426 really underrated show that proves there's plenty of space for fun Batman too and yes you're right, it had pathos too!
Another aspect of Two Face that I've never really seen explored much but would be wildly fascinating is... what does Harvey Dent, former District Attorney bring to the criminal enterprises of Two-Face, notorious mob boss? And this is another thing the Nolan-verse Batman jettisons with making the whole Dent story so focused on just the transformation and then killing him immediately.
Like, imagine the Breaking Bad levels of story you can get out of seeing this former good-cop lawyer use his very specific skill set in the criminal world to produce gambits that shake things up. How Dent might be aware of what crimes will and won't get responded to with shows of force by the city. Tricking his opposition in the crime world into making too much noise, stepping on the wrong toes. And even as a GOOD DA, Harvey probably still got wind of who in power was more amenable to corruption. Seeing these good guy skills and knowledge leveraged for foul ends.
PLUS! It makes for such a useful in world cautionary tale, and why plenty of people would have misgivings about Batman. Seeing how much harm Two Face can cause as a former beacon of hope makes the fear of such an unchecked power player as Batman way more reasonable. The DCU's fear of Superman turning evil was always a little wild because it's SUPERMAN! But people thinking BATMAN might fall off the deep end and go crazy? Hell, for most Gothamites it's probably more "when, not if".
Two-Face should have been the big bad in TDKR instead of Bane. Would have made it way more compelling of a trilogy.
@@NoHiro-qc4dvNow I’m mad that we never got that version of TDKR.
Thank you. Harvey is my all-time favourite antagonist in the Batman universe, and he is been regularly underused in live action. His dynamics in TDK was one of the aspects that rubbed me the wrong way. KIling him off almost instantly just looks as a worst way to say "wasted opportunity". Also, one thing that particularly concerns me is "dark and realistic" take that was maniphested by the film, yet it completely went beyond every level of physics/human organism peuciarities when it came to the wounds of Harvey which transformed him into Two-Face. Gone with the original way of making him Two-Face (and the way it happened in the comics is very grounded in reality, unfortunately; one can find stories of people wounded like that out of jealousy, vengeance etc. in true crime from many decades), instead there are different elements affecting his face...and in the end, he 1)keeps his eye on the wounded side which is...doubtful given what happened to him; 2)haven't died of painful shock? How?
Just hope matt reeves makes a two face show
touching on the breaking bad type story, i think u could kill two birds with one stone by making harvey’s turn into two face a slow descent bc you could 1. make his character shift be more logical or understandable and 2. avoid the mentally ill comic book villain trope of “sane person becomes crazy from one single incident.”
like
i think you could do a better call saul type story where this relatively straight laced guy starts getting a little cocky and greedy and starts sticking his nose where he shouldn’t. maybe he gets wrapped up in doing shady stuff and is trying to balance being on good terms with sal maroni and trying to uphold a facade of a good reputation. then sal scars his face, and this is kinda breaks the floodgates, exposes his shady dealings, kills his career, blah blah blah and then we see why he leans into the two-face identity: bc his self-destructive tendencies fucked him over big time and he feels like he can’t run away from that anymore so might as well own it
def a concept that needs some major polishing and stuff but idk i think something like this could work for his character
I'm tired of "realistic" Batman. No amount of realism stops it from being a goddamn sci-fi franchise with impossible gadgets, fictional chemicals and exagerated human endurance. We need an adaptation that owns that shit.
Not to mention that a "realistic" Batman just dies or gets unmasked and arrested on his first week of fighting crime.
Yeah, it’s always annoying when people claim he’s the most realistic super hero. The man has an airplane in his basement. Nothing about that is realistic.
@@Aaron-zt5eeHe’s the most realistic solely due to him having no powers. (He’s not the only one but he’s the most popular so go figure)
And… that’s it. That’s all for the surface level reasoning. He’s only seen as realistic, because he compared to people like superman, the flash or green lantern, like it’s a competition. However, if we push aside the artificial character design, the amount BS Batman pulled against supernatural enemies for an ordinary human is astonishing. He has sci-fi gadget, unreasonable 100+ martial arts mastery, can take on hordes of people in hand to hand combat, wears an armor that can tank bullets all day like it’s an iron man suit, beat his enemies to submission without giving brain damage or paralysed them, and no one shoots in the goddamn mouth. He is not realistic at all when you open your eyes and look at him with basic physics. Only in his own universe which is a superhero universe. Yeah… he’s a superhero. Superhero isn’t real.
Why don’t they stop making this billionaire who wears a bat costume to fight crimes realistic. The guy doesn’t even need to sleep!!!
It's escapism, some people take it way too seriously. I'm 61 years old and I'm burnt out on all these science fiction superhero fantasies! The market is saturated. That's why they're making Joker musicals!
@@fearlesseye5896Not fighting Superman? He can't be realistic, Superman actually hit him and he didn't splatter all over the place. Batman versus Superman is a one punch kill!
When you brought up Joker's pettiness I instantly remembered how he reacted, in the Burton movie, when Batman stole his balloons. That scene and the one of him pulling out the giant revolver still gets a laugh out me 🤣
YES!! 😂😂
I get it. Almost nobody cares if a movie is a bad adaptation as long as it's good by itself, but when a bad adaptation starts an entire genre, then the cracks start to show.
Jim Carrey's The Mask is a comedic masterpiece and one of my favorite films of all time, but it's very different from its horror source material. If The Mask had started a new era where every horror icon became comedic, it would be hated.
Now, the Nolan trilogy was great, but one can see its bad influence in other superhero movies that decided to imitate the wrong parts of it.
I feel like the same thing happened in comics with the one-two-three punch of Killing Joke, Dark Knight Returns, and Watchmen. Great books all, but set off one of the worst periods in comics by people taking the wrong lessons from them.
@HobGungan Indeed. Some artists try to force certain characters into styles not made for them.
@@HobGungansame rhing with dark knigt watchmen 300 sin city
My thoughts exactly. Grew up on the TDK Trilogy and still love them, but Man did the Studios learn the wrong lessons from their success.
I’m a Transformers fan, so I had to put up with the Michael Bay movies being both bad films and bad adaptations being the face of the franchise to the general public for a decade
And it poisons the perception of this franchise
Honestly, I think the Nolan trilogy was influenced by its namesake, the dark knight returns. It, too, is an overall good story that is fundamentally lacking what makes Batman himself. The main difference, and main justification, is that in Returns, Bruce has gotten far older and lost touch, almost becoming a thrill-seeker bereft of the empathy which drove him originally. He was the Batman we knew at one point, but became disconnected and brutal.
It's called The Dark Knight Returns, not Batman Returns, that's what people call him, not how he calls himself. I think there's an intentional subtext to it
People forget it was also a mix of Jason’s death and the government outlawing superheroes that forced Batman to retire. It’s the same in DKR, the death of Rachel and Harvey alongside with the Dent act forced Batman to retire until there was a need for him again.
If you can't see the Batman you're writing comforting a dying child, that isn't Batman. That's the Punisher in a funny hat.
Do you mean "if you can't see..."?
Not a valid criticism of Dark Knight Batman tho.
Are you talking about JLU? Man even thinking of that scene makes me tear up. Probably my favourite Batman moment of all time. No big fights, no bad ass one liners just a man sitting on a swing with a scared little girl before she dies. Just incredible
@aneasteregg8171 i mean...
My best friend saw The Batman before me, and when they got home, they messaged me to say that Robert Patterson's Batman would definitely have sat with Ace and comforted her, and therefore was spot-on and their new favorite live-action Batman, (nothing will supplant Kevin Conroy as the best Batman across all media.) That sold me and I was really excited to go see this version of Batman asap.
I think Ben Affleck was a solid casting choice for Batman, but unfortunately, Snyder just did not understand Batman, let alone Superheroes and what makes them interesting.
Unironically Ben Affleck as Batman and Jeremy Irons as Alfred were the most enjoyable parts of the movie.
@@intergalactic92agreed. A solo film with those two would have been amazing.
Same thing with superman.
Love how "serious" this franchise is and they have the silliest voices you could give to these characters like Batman and Bane
While it did, its not really the fault of the movie that people want to copy its success, that would be like saying sci-fi was ruined by star wars because hundreads of bad movies wanted to be the next star wars. Blame the people who copied not what is being copied
It's usually something (at least quite good) and studios learning all the wrong lessons from it.
The movie has it's faults too. Batman as a character wasn't really interesting in the last 2 movies. Nolan's version of Batman is just not likable to me. Mainly because how quickly he retired as Batman. He doesn't grow or change much after the first movie. Batman in the comics gets growth as a character even after the origin story. The Batman showed one of them. Also Nolan's movies are too grounded to the point it's not fun anymore. Gotham is just a generic city, his villains other then the Joker are boring, the fights aren't usually good, Batman is really incompetent against regular criminals. His detective side is barely present. Even though being a detective is a major part of his character. He literally needed to breach privacy of every citizen to find one dude. Even then he only won at the end of TDK because of luck. Everyone in those ships happen to be selfless enough to risk their lives.
These are great movies no doubt. But these are superhero movies that are ashamed to be superhero movies.
@@DiegoXRA
“The Batman showed one of them”
Batman is a reckless moron for most of that movie and only realizes he has to be more than rage because he picked up a child lol
This is why the 1966 Batman was unironically one of the best adaptations. I didn't even realize Batman was supposed to be kind or wholesome until I watched Adam West teach Robin about the importance of road safety and wealth taxes.
I haven't watch it not do I feel like watching it. Too campy and not serious for my taste
Batman should feel real. Even the more comedic parts of the Teen Titans cartoon felt real compared to the Boomer Batman stuff!
Agree except one problem is I'm not always sure how sincere it was. Sometimes it feels too much like 60s Hollywood making fun of traditional heroes. Compare it to Trek's very earnest and still cool Captain Kirk for instance.
@@christiandauz3742 lol according to Alan Moore the guy who made Killing Joke and Watchment Adam West in the definitive batman
@@christiandauz3742 But Batman isn't real, and a "real" Batman just dies on his first week of crime fighting, anyway.
I found the same reading bronze age Batman stories, such as written by Englehart and O'NEILL.
I wish comic book movies weren't ashamed to be based on comics
TvTropes even has this as a Trope.
Hated what they did with Luke Cage/Jessica Jones/Iron Fist
Fucking David Tennant in a Purple Suit named Kevin instead of a Purple Skinned dude named Zebediah Kilgrave named The Purple Man
Lol the irony amirute
I went from clown fatigue to Joker exhaustion. Vault him for like a decade. Let the other members of the rogue's gallery out to breathe.
Thanks to Todd Phillips horrible Joker movie I think this will be the case.
I'm going through a huge Joker and Harley exhaustion and have been for a long time. Looks like it's not gonna end any time soon.
@@UnsatMarine I mean Folie a deux was horrible, but the first one was a huge hit so idk
Man, I really want Clayface to make an appearance in the movies.
Yeah, Joker is undoubtedly my favourite character, but i am tired of how flanderised his murderous aspect is. I am not hopeful for the Reevesverse Joker when we finally get it. It will im sure be even more of the same gritty and grounded approach- even more so than Nolan!
Re: Joker
And all, ALL respect to Heath Ledger
But Joker keeps getting pushed farther and farther into the darkenss beyond the character's intention.
Long gone are the electric joy buzzers.
Killing Joke was supposed to be an EXTREME story, not Joker's base jump starting point (regardless of possible origin revelation).
But even THAT had some homicidal gags in it.
Every film Joker performance since has been trying to be Heath Ledger. And that sucks. Why can’t we portray a goofier Joker again?
Also it’s really obvious to tell who watched The Dark Knight as a kid when they talk about other Batman media. Especially when they say “Why isn’t the Joker obsessed with Batman?”
We really need a Sascha Baron Cohen-Joker.
You know, as much as I have misgivings about it, at least the Harley Quinn show did something different with the Joker. And NGL, it’s actually funny watching him in his get-up being a good husband and stepfather and even becoming possibly Gotham’s best mayor. It still feels like his warped humor is around even though he’s not being a villain anymore.
Especially since Heath Ledger's is awful. It's got ashamed of the source material energy all over it
Leto joker tried being fantastical but we didn't get more off it.
@BruceWayne-xq7bb oh we barely got anything of that universe it took strange and bold turns but didn't justify anything because was handled with prequel energy everything was teasing things for movies that never came like BvS featuring a broken Batman and little of Batman's world because they were keen on having it all in that trilogy that kept delayed til they just abandoned it for The Batman movie reboot and even that's being left to spoil.
X was popular. Therefore everything becomes reflection of X.
Would kill for joker using all his practical joke gadgets. Like acid squirting flower,exploding rubber chicken,electro joy buzzer,fun/twisted!
Depends on the story and tone. Even then it needs to fit the theme and aesthetics
The fake flower can spray flesh dissolving acid in a more gritty Batman story
@@christiandauz3742. Joker;"disturbing and goofy". What you mean;"Not fitting"?!
You clearly haven’t seen Batman 89. He has and uses all of these in the movie
@@Izz-s9h. But Not anymore! Exact same point this video made! Read this?
@@erikbihari3625 your comment never said “anymore”. You implied it like it has never been done before.
I am the oddball when I say I much prefer Batman Begins over the other two Nolan films. There was more style and atmosphere to balance out the “realism” that was utterly lost after Begins.
I miss when Joker was just a goofy mofo doing goofy ahh crimes.
Tbf that’s not what he was originally. His first incarnation i the 40s was mostly just a creepy serial killer with a clown-like getup. He didn’t even laugh or smile much. He was just disturbing
@@Joshcoshbagosh Superman couldn't fly either tbh
@Joshcoshbagosh Yeah I actually read the first issue. His whole gimmick was his murder method was a Toxin that would make people's facial muscles turn into a smile which was basically one of his two calling cards.
But like how Batman evolved from someone who doesn't like killing but did it when the situation called for it into someone who will not and does not kill PERIOD, Joker kind of evolved. For better (The Animated Series) and for worse (Suicide Squad and what the Killing Joke and Dark Knight did for the character)
@@MILDMONSTER1234 Golden Age was such a weird time for comics. Like when the Flash wasn't Barry Allen or Wally West but Jay Garrick and Green Lantern wasn't Hal Jordan nor John Stewart but Alan Scott (Whose not even an actual member of the Corps and his weakness was wood)
@@Joshcoshbagoshtbh I am going to push back against this a bit. I think this idea that Joker on first appearance was very dour and serious is largely popularised by Three Jokers. But i find ot not so if you read both Joker stories in Batman 1. He smiles and does laugh. He clearly had a seditious humour, and is maniacal. He's not as gregariously clownish as later iterations, but these aspects are certainly there. Whereas the criminal in Three Jokers is mostly just an extrapolation of the very first panel of Joker, but not reflective of the first appearance as a whole, which is overal more animated than that. But, the thing is, had the criminal been portrayed more in line with this, he would not be all that different from the clown Joker.
Terrifier made money It will get worse with Joker
At least despite the bloodshed, Art The Clown has some moments of pure camp and dark humour
There's a reason why David Howard Thornton has expressed interest in playing DCU Joker.
A lot of the faults stem from the simple fact that Nolan has no interest in making movies about people, just ideas or philosophies. Which isn't a bad thing per say... but it certainly should be isolated from greater comic lore
So Comics aren't Philosophical or Poignant?
Nolan is one of those directors who thinks he’s more clever than he really is. Which is why I do not like his work
@@christiandauz3742They're not ENTIRELY about that no
@@Magnesium-BasedLifeform-i9eSame with Matt Reeves, he’s trying so hard and came up with the most boring Batman movie on screen…
@@Loki-sk7binot really
I still look back on this movie and realize that it’s the reason joker is always the main villain I really wish DC would get someone new black mask, Mr freeze anybody.
Arkham Origins
Black Mask: “I’m actually The Joker!”
*drops controller*
@gringles I was so annoyed by that reveal as a kid
I kinda agree. I dont hate nolan, he did a great job….but also he did too great of a job making batman grounded and making people forget how much of a cartoon the idea of a batman is. Maybe it’s my new midlife crisis, but I kinda miss the wacky oddball comic book stuff of the Schumacher and burton era.
No he didn't. It only seems that way because of the self caused batman drought WB caused by wanting to be too protective over the brand and thinking little of the audience thinking multiple Batman projects would trigger rage quitting.
I don't hate Nolan. I just feel sad for how big a footprint he left behind.
His trilogy is a bad representation of the Batman mythos. Ras' sucked and Batman would have saved him, Joker is well acted but isn't the Joker, and Bane is a joke.
The biggest problem I always had with TDK and TDKR was the attempt at realism.
Turning Gotham into just another city makes the whole idea seem ridiculous. We're talking about a man who dresses up as a f***ing bat.
It only works in the context of a surreal gothic dream-like environment, surrounded by other fantastical characters.
I see the 21st century 'gritty realism' movement as largely a failure. It's only really worked in realistic dramas such as The Wire. In the fantastical only the first 3 or 4 seasons of GOT pulled it off, before it descended into Hollywood-ised nonsense.
Fantasy cinema needs to rediscover its soul.
I dunno I think you can pull off both
@kwayneboy1524 Any examples of it being successfully done?
@@KoreMike13 successful is a subjective term here seeing how it was arguably done successfully with the Nolanverse.
But other examples I can give is the Arkhamverse which is both fantastical but grounded. It's kept in a more realistic in the sense that Gotham looks like an actual city that's more so in the process of being modernized.
Characters like Robin aren't teenagers(Tim is at least 19 to 22) who dress up in bright colors but are designed like MMA fighters wearing more dark clothing. I could go on and on.
Gotham 1919 which is a universe set 1919 to 1939 that shows Batman in a more believable era where he could exist at his prime. Characters like Ivy and Clayface are shown to be normal humans and much more down to earth crimes, Ivy is a black widow and Clayface is a serial killer who's crimes are meant to draw out Batman for his revenge.
But characters like Mister Freeze and Man-Bat exist with their powers but it's left a mystery of how they got them.
Arrow exists in a more grounded world but still has metahumans, Immortal madmen and ect. But it's still written in a much more believable way that highlights Oliver is just a human going up against things that exist in the world but are still fantastical.
How much money do you expect them to spend on set design???
One of my greatest irritations regarding modern Batman is their tendency to omit Robin. For me Robin is one of the most essential aspect to the Batman's mythos, yet numerous adaptations either ignore them, kill them off or have them be a jobber with many modern Batman stories having Gordon or Alfred frequently take the spot as Batman's partner, hell even fucking Harley Quinn has made more appearances than Dick Grayson is modern stories, which is quite frustrating considering Robin was introduced long before figures like Gordon and Alfred. I really dislike the reasoning that they don't align with the dark and brooding nature of Batman even through there have been numerous dark narratives featuring them and besides we have plenty of stories featuring a dark and brooding Batman who operates solo; why not explore something a little more different? That's the thing that gets to me about Caped Crusaders show like we already have tons and tons and tons of dark and gritty batman stories where he works alone, particularly set during year one. What makes this show that much different from the others? Like there is so much untapped potential with not only with Robin but the whole Bat Family; however, due to the perception that these characters will conflict with the more brooding, solitary nature of Batman, they always rarely come to fruition and don't get me wrong; there've been many Batman stories I enjoy without the Bat Family, but personally, they are the main draw for me and It wouldn't be too much for to ask just include characters like Cassandra Cain or Tim Drake in another Batman project for Christ sake.
Pretty sure Gordon dates back to Batman’s first appearance, according to Wikipedia on the very first panel of his debut issue, so he came before Robin.
Gordon came before Robin.
Dick being Robin is essential to show Batman go from the dark brooding loner to seeing the light, Dick becoming Nightwing is the peak of that because as Batman has said multiple times, Dick is better than him all the skill and none of the darkness. In Infinite Crisis when Earth 2 Superman tries to win over Bruce to "fix" the world because he says it has gone dark and twisted he asks one question, is his Dick Grayson worse than Earth 2s? Superman can only admit that Earth 1s Nightwing is just as great a man and as such Bruce refuses to change the universe. Barbara becoming Oracle is also a necessity, she gets to be a hero and then after a horrible trauma she finds her own way to still be a hero and Cassandra Cain as Batgirl works because she is the inverse of Batman
FR
I haven’t seen a lot of Batman media.
As my favorite as of right now is
THE BATMAN
LEGO BATMAN MOVIE
Mostly due to how it’s kinda does commentary of how Bruce despite his tragic past and broody personality. He’s still a multi-billionaire that’s basically a power fantasy towards “red pill/alpha male” bros.
Lego Batman basically deconstructs his character by allowing him to understand that it’s okay to be vulnerable and for people to help you. Along with the fact that he doesn’t defeat Joker by beating the shit out of him but by coming and working together. Even if the villains does goes to jail at the end
THE BATMAN
Is basically an arc of how Bruce becomes less of an “edgy Batman that’s broody” to more of a symbol of peace that the citizen are less afraid of and has more trust in him.
Sorry for my rambling. Just wanna share my thoughts
Finally, someone else who also considers The Lego Batman Movie as the Best Batman Movie.
I recommend giving Telltail Batman a shot. Probably one of my favorite Batmans and made a really good sympathetic Joker.
The Nolan trilogy happens to be a really cool crime thriller trilogy; I just wish It wasn’t a Batman film
I wish it was actually Batman and not Nolan's interpretation of what a realistic Batman could look like.
@ as someone who bemoans constantly the death of traditional Crime films … this film could’ve done more good if it weren’t a Batman film
@@BaithNawah
What is a "Batman movie" supposed to look like?
it could have been fun if the trilogy was comprised of a film about gordon watching gotham fall (and the damages it's done to their elite where we'd be following bruce wane's turmoil boil over into leaving the country for a while) doing his damndest to slow it down by taking on falcone, a film following bruce's return to gotham from his worldly travels finding it rapidly transforming and testing his limits as he honed his senses to counter normal criminals that clearly aren't calling the shots anymore, and the third film following selina finally getting the citywide anarchy she always longed for only to fall in love with the chase due to a certain masked vigilante who can keep up with her, this all coming to a close with her decision between the city she thought she didn't care for and the kind of freedom she thought she wanted
In BTAS, Batman as a detective went to a Joker themed casino as Bruce Wayne to investigate.
In Mask of the Phantasm, he was seen to have started to heal because of someone in his life. He told his parents' grave that it just doesn't hurt so bad anymore.
The Dark Knight Returns solved the whole Batman's Vehicles Having Guns problem with one line.
"Rubber bullets."
Even in the dark future of that story where Batman uses firearms they still are designed to incapacitate rather than kill. Which makes it weird what are supposed to be more standard Batmen have live rounds.
**Sees Title** It's a Bold Strategy Cotton, let's see if it pays off for him.
I'm pretty sure everybody knew what he was going to say.
Batman movies peaked with Mask of the Phantasm.
Batman in general peaked with Btas (or the Arkham games).
No lies detected here.
Preach!
Batman peaked in the 1940’s
That's not true
I have come to agree to with the statement “Nolan never understood who Batman is.” It’s fascinating that there really isn’t a crime noir mystery in any of Nolan’s stories. The DCAU Batman and the Brave and the Bold Barman;, two Versions who are absolutely goofier than Nolan’s realistic take, show more maturity and depth than Bale’s Batman. You’re right that the DCAU Batman is more restrained, active, and is quite charitable even when he is playing the obtuse billionaire. Brave and the Bold is yes still haunted by his parents death but he is able to be less grim and has a sense of humor. Like he isn’t going to be ok with Catwoman KILLING a man in front of him (which is what happened in dark knight rises). But an element that is less discussed is the lack of commitment Nolan’s Batman has to being a hero than two animated versions.
The DCAU Batman never stopped being Batman until his body couldn’t handle the toll. No mater what the pain or anger he accumulated over the years, no matter what relationships he ruined, Bruce couldn’t never stand aside when crime was amok. Seeing him quit being Batman hits more than Bale’s Bruce Wayne wandering around the mansion. Kevin’s bruce Wayne would then, after years, of being in depressive state, find a way to fight crime by training the new Batman, Terry Guinness, showing his need to stop crime never died.
The Brave and the Bold Batman never considers quitting as a positive influence. Yes there was a fanfic written by Alfred of having Bruce marry Selina and having a kid, but notice how Bruce never becomes a hermit. Bruce yes retired in this fanfic, but he passes the role of Batman to nightwing and continues to make appearances in public, like when he creates a Batman museum. To him, the world should remember the good deeds of Batman. When Alfred suggests to the real Bruce Wayne that he could marry Selina, Bruce says no, swearing to continue crime fighting. In the shockingly great finale, Batman when confronting that his show will be cancelled and make away for a darker show, refuses to succumb to network pressures to use a gun, and addresses the audience in a heartfelt manner with every character who appeared in the show “I’ll. Always be there with the hammer of justice, and thank you.”
Bale’s Batman quit because he was sad. He didn’t even train the “not Robin” cop properly nor does he have a son-father relationship with “not Robin” cop to teach him how to be a vigilante. What’s critical for Batman and Robin to work is that Bruce provides dick/tim/stepshnje/cassandra/damian a safe role model to work out their issues. Simply giving an inexperienced, angry person the tools to be Batman only leads to more problems-see Jason and Azrael All the while dating a killer. Something bar bith anointed versions would have scoffed at.
Correction: Bales Batman stopped because Gotham didnt need him anymore.
He suceeded, he won. If hes whatever Gotham needs him to be, He wont be whatever Gotham doesnt need him to be.
Horrible comparisons. Your comparing apples to oranges. You compare Nolan's work to animation, and completely omit the previous film versions. So what are you implying that the previous films were perfect representations of Batman??? And why don't they have to meet with the same scrutiny as Nolan?
He quit because he allowed himself to be framed for Harvey's crimes and death. He let himself fall from grace, be forsaken by Gotham, if only so that Harvey Dent's legacy remains intact.
@@UnsatMarine to me the animated versions (and adam west) were the best versions of batman on-screen, that's why i made the comparisons to show my reasons. I also haven't seen Patterson's batman yet. But i agree with the thesis of this video; Nolan like tim burton and even joel Schumacher before him didn't understand Batman as much as he believed. But the animated versions of batman didn't quit (as well as adam west's batman). Even the DCAU Batman faced much more poignant tragedies that negatively impacted him than nolan's batman ever did and he kept fighting until he physically could not. And in again, none of these batmen ever tolerated killing not from their foes or their allies. unlike nolan's batman.
@@spencermalley10 No, he didn't. Gotham is worse off at the end of "Rises" than it was in "Begins."
I never understood the desire to inject realism into the story about the grown man who dresses up like a big bat to fight insane super criminals.
Helps ground him more to feel more believable.
@@kwayneboy1524 I mean you can try to make him believable but at the end of the day it is what it is still
@@LegendaryOverfiend okay?
Realism needs to be properly defined for this discussion, because TAS felt more grounded than most despite its fantastical elements.
@LegendaryOverfiend isn't that what Batman:The Animated Series did though. It managed to balance out grounded abd fantastic elements and it worked.
To be fair, Gotham City wasn't really "Gothic" until the 1989 movie and Grant Morrison's Arkham graphic novel. Gotham also didn't look decaying until Frank Miller. Before that, Gotham City was pretty much what we got in the Nolan films. I liked what Reeves did with The Batman because Gotham felt like a decent blend of the Burton approach, the Nolan Approach, and what we've gotten from the comics.
How could you say something so controversial yet so brave
@@greenbird6435 more like dumb as hell. Dude was criticizing a trilogy because of its impact.
@@StraightEdgeKnight19 How is that dumb? 😭 He also doesn't just do that, but reflects on the trilogy, what it did, how it portrayed the whole Batman world and what it means and how all of that contributed to mischaracterization in future adaptations because of the impact it had.
@@declanista that don’t matter son, regardless of the impact the trilogy is still hailed as the best comic book movie trilogy, and TDK is STILL hailed as the best comic book movie of all time. Keep coping.
@@StraightEdgeKnight19 By what standards? As in general film, adaptation, realism, technical characteristics, audience scores, or...?
Because as a comic book adaptation, it is very bad. In writing aspects the trilogy is pretty bland and doesn't hold on to the world itself, what it's trying to present and the characters.
The dialogue is painful, the understanding of the world, how it works, the characters motivations, who they are. Everything gets to such a superficial level it's insane. Not even mentioning the butchering of Batman's persona and personal reflection and conflicts.
There's no doubt the movie The Dark Knight is well loved along with the others in the trilogy (I think Batman Begins is fine, but I don't doubt that everyone agrees that The Dark Knight Rises was a mess), but it's not a perfect adaptation by any means, and much less a good COMIC BOOK adaptation.
Still, no matter what the general perception is, the trilogy can be critiqued, analyzed and get every aspect shredded if someone wants lol. Especially if it's considered so important among adaptations, as you say, and has had such a big impact on popular culture.
@@declanista again son that don’t matter. Cope harder.
In the Rebirth comic books, Bruce Wayne doesn't just donate to charity, he goads other billionaires, even evil ones like Lex Luthor in Veronica Cale, into donating to charity. They manipulate Bruce Wayne back, but still.
The dark Knight trilogy is a great set of two movies, but they are very noticeably ashamed to be superhero movies, and outside of brave and the bold it seems like WB is scared to try campy Batman again let alone his larger mythos for the robins
What makes directors like James Gunn, Sam Raimi, Guillermo del Toro, Taika Waititi, Chloe Zhao, Richard Donner, Tim Burton and to a lesser extent Zack Snyder is that they understand comic books, Nolan understands films more.
@@jonathaneilbeck2263does he ? After the back2back snoozefest of inception and tenet
@@jonathaneilbeck2263 He understands a style of film more. And that style tends to get old real fast when you watch his films back to back.
Bullshit.
Theyre no more "ashamed to be Superhero movies" than The Batman was.
@@spencermalley10 hey Dwight
Depending on who you ask, this could be an unpopular opinion, but comic book characters and their environments should always try to stay close to the artistic eras and visual style time periods from where they first originated; maintaining its appeal. So no matter how old it becomes, it can always maintain its classic yet unique original concepts and doesn't lose it through post-modernity and contemporary zeitgeists, being timeless instead of time locked.
The Ra's vs. "Raish" issue is easy. When it's a bunch of comics geeks, nobody cares about how words are actually pronounced as long as Denny O'Neil pronounces that way. When a film is being released worldwide and going to be seen by a not-insignificant amount of Arabic speakers, the decision to go with the proper (or at least anglicized version) is the way to go.
I love The Dark Knight and Christian Bale is my Favourite Batman, but I won't deny that it's influence on future Batman media is a double edged sword (not helped by many writers taking the wrong lessons from it).
Again: nobody was forced to follow Nolan's take.
@PhilipMertens Where did I say that?
I love the Gothem of the Arkham games. It gives the strongest city full of secrets built on top of an older city filled with darker secrets. The parts of old Gothen underground made of late 1800s architecture were my favorite parts.
Nobody could've explained the problem with modern Joker better than you, amazing video. I really hope we go back to a proper Joker in the DCU or future comics
“He’s out of line..but he’s right!”
I would argue that Nolan alone isn’t at fault it’s DC itself they saw how gobsmacked successful TDK was and just wanted to capitalize on it and it hasn’t taken until RECENTLY that they realized “hmm maybe we should try to loosen up from that and let’s also stop putting Batman front and center let’s get it back to the man of tomorrow now like it should be”
Did TDK ruin it? or are Hollywood writers just too afraid ot too untalented to do anything different?
Finally, i, too, do not care for these films in regards to its depiction of batman and how that affected batman for years after
Batman Begins was the best of the trilogy…don’t @ me
Its the one movie thats actually about batman
@@dc7981even that was meh, because the story adaptations were shit.
the dark knight is an amazing film whose desperate to be a crime thriller about a non descript agent, using high end tech and the surveillance state to like catch a psychotic mad planner with a sort of military background ( the joker's implied backstory is cool)
@FrancoDFernando
I had such high hopes after that. Was disappointed in Dark Knight, it didn't even have the atmosphere Begins had.
You either die an icon, or live long enough to distort your legacy.
My attempt to adapt Harvey's "die a hero" speech
Mega Man ironically went down this path as a video game franchise. As soon as X7 was released, I don't think it was able to truly recover from that. It peaked at Mega Man Zero 4, and now Z4 casts that shadow over the rest of the entire franchise. Every other version, be it Archie, Fully Charged, or even Secret Level, all had shades of Mega Man Zero. Sonic meanwhile, the franchise it crossed over with, should consider itself lucky to have fans that legitimately care about the world beyond Green Hill Zone, Angel Island, Central City, Empire City, and The United Federation that make up the four major locales. DC meanwhile has bottlenecked itself into Gotham City, Darkseid's Homeworld, the Green Lantern Corps, and Metropolis because of it's attempt at a cinematic universe.
You need to account for why the nolanverse was created. "Batman&Robin" used a lot of the tropes you blame nolanverse suffered.
I love it when UA-camrs say something I don't like is bad
To me at least, Batman the Animated Series remains the best and the quintessential Batman. What made this version of Batman effective to me is balance, the series is chock full of action, suspense, horror, drama, humour, sci-fi and fantasy, there was something for everyone, the writing and the animation balance each other, with some of the best voice acting ever put to animation. The big thing that really stands out to me, that Batman TaS does what the Dark Knight struggled with was Batman's humanity, sure he's a crime fighter and a vigilante, but Batman is still Bruce Wayne, he is still human, and the series really shines Batman's foibles. Episode "Nothing to Fear" we see Bruce's fear of shaming his parents, that he will fail to live up to hold his slain parents good name, nevertheless, Batman overcomes his fear with the icon line "I am vengeance, I am the night, I am BATMAN". Another iconic episode is "Perchance to Dream", this is my favourite episode of all time, this is one of the few times when the main character is Bruce Wayne - not Batman, the majority of the screentime is starring Bruce, this is quite rare, and I love this because it shows Bruce's deepest desires, to have his parents back, and not living the nightmare of seeing their deaths. But of course, it's a dream created by the Mad Hatter, and no matter how attractive the dream is, Bruce will not live a lie, his valour and heroic qualities are deeply ingrained, the Mad Hatter underestimated Batman's qualities, who failed because he already lives in a wonderland, thus couldn't grasp that this quality is absent in Batman. Perhaps one of the most interesting episodes is "I am the Night", this is one of the darkest episodes in Batman TaS, it takes place on the anniversary of the murder of his parents, Batman is dreary and glum, that no matter how much he fights crime, there is no end in sight, and when Commissioner Gordon is wounded in the line of duty, Batman reaches his lowest point, another person he cared for is shot by a criminal, but the episode ends with Batman thwarting the criminal when he tries to kill Gordon, Batman realises that as long as Gordon is fighting crime, he should fight crime too, and that his heroism is sorely needed. Another episode I should also mention is "Appointment in Crime Alley", the location where his parents are murdered, but despite this, Batman is still hopeful for a better world, he fights crimes to defend the remaining good left in this troubled neighbourhood, and this is what the Dark Knight is missing. Batman is more than just brooding and bleak hero, he is still optimistic, holding out for something better, Christopher Nolan's Batman leaves out too much of Batman's humanity and humility, after all, Bruce Wayne was sympathetic to Dick Grayson after his parents were murdered by Tony Zucco, then trained him into being Robin, the Dynamic Duo is another example of Batman's humanity, two heroes trying to bring justice to Gotham City.
Its a shame how TAS has spawned such a truly toxic fanbase.
Where exactly has the Nolanverse Batman shown a "lack of humanity". If anything, its quite the opposite.
@@spencermalley10 Dude, nobody's attacking you if you like the Nolan movies, a lot of people did and do. How is saying TAS is a great example of how to do Batman, another take many people tend to agree with or at least understand the position of even if they disagree, make OP "toxic"?
@@gregvs.theworld451 The toxicity is when people say TAS is "the only way to do Batman" and put down other takes on the character for not alligning with it.
@@spencermalley10 hardcore tas fans went after The Batman 04 and Teen Titans 03 back in the day so yeah its always kinda been this way
@@spencermalley10so basically Synder fans nowadays?
as someone who loves the dark knight trilogy
TRUE
Yea sure u do😂
@StraightEdgeKnight19 Liking something doesn't mean thinking everything about it is perfect.
@@StraightEdgeKnight19 nobody asked
To me the Nolan films helped in focus on grounded Batman being the ONLY way to do Batman which to me is ridiculous. The League of Assassins are just watered down and I dare admit it but I wanted the League to be VERY similar to how the assasins are done in John Wick films. Having Ras Al Ghul control a secret society where he is the one that controls all crime and sits has the HEAD of the High Table so to speak like in the John Wick films and making them actual killers makes perfect sense.
It took me watching John Wick 3 and Hallie Berry character looking like straight Talia made me see how Nolan kinda wasted the potential of my favorite Batman villain and his family the Al Ghuls.
Sounds contradictory. So you don't like Nolan...but you want a bloodbath like in John Wick??? Nawww. Now if you had said the League should be more like The Hand in Daredevil, then yeah I would have agreed to that.
@UnsatMarine NOT at all , the League being Ninjas comes off has stereotypical. I'm not saying you can't have ninjas, but they're also trained killers. I like how the John Wick films we have a secret society system.
Its nothing to do with the violence , making the point that they are trained killers and have had members who aren't Ninjas at all in their group, like David Cain , Merlin, the list goes on. League of Assasins aren't magical Ninjas in the same way has The Hand.
Also, the secrecy of this society and having rules. Also, you can go into the aspect of the Hashasin where the term Assassin comes from in Arabic. Mystical aspect is Ras Al Ghul and Lazurus Pit.
@UnsatMarine Also who said I didn't like Nolan ? I like his films but his films are lacking. The obvious is using " Realistic " Batman villains and not actually using them. Andy makes it clear in the video like Carmine Falcone who literally is a foot note. Ras was fine in the films but it was so funny he wanted realistic Batman but used a villain with supernatural elements same with Bane.
I'm shocked Nolan series didn't touch characters like Hugo Strange , Penguin or Roman Sionis
I think Nolan’s trilogy helped legitimise the Batman brand in the mainstream again after Schumacher obliterated it. I feel part of expediting that process meant entertaining a narrower, more compact vision of the mythos that did away with a lot of the facets that comic book enthusiasts have come to know and enjoy.
i like the 2019 joker film as it's own movie but it was always not really a joker movie which i don't think wb really understood
My biggest issue is that the films brought on this realism tide to Batman media, and now people ignore what the villains are supposed to represent and only talk about how unrealistic stuff is. The metaphor's are being ignored in favour of trying to outsmart the source material.
Objection: Keaton's Batman is never actually doing charitable things either outside of a mention off-screen, and he murders people with machine guns and bombs. He's pretty much The Punisher. It's better implied that he's not necessarily much of a hero tbf and still far too disturbed. Also, two of those examples were literal murders, namely Joker, and One Face. [TLJ isn't Two Face, you'll never convince me], when that's an option, of course there are more solutions.
As for Nolan, one has to remember that terrorism was all the rage in 2005, and every other TV show was a crime show...or reality TV, and there was a lot of pressure to not be Batman & Robin. And like M. Night Shyamalan, The Wachowskis, George Lucas, or Rian Johnson, characters take a backseat to themes in Nolan films. They all take the saying, "Little people talk people, average people talk events, great minds talk ideas" way too seriously.
I'm baffled that you didn't consider the ending when Batman perma-retires and runs off with Anne Hathaway, which I'd argue shows that he has moved on, and has grown. And in a real-world scenario, yeah, Batman has to be a phase.
And while there is a warmth in chemistry, it's Keaton's Batman that doesn't get to run away, and his relationship with Vale before fails. And until a comics continuation, there is no Robin figure at all.
Look, I still prefer Burton to Nolan, and I find Reeve's to be best too, but I think you're missing a few parts. Cheers mate.
I would say the Batman animated series is the best non comic book version of Batman and I wished it was more popular in modern times.
In retrospect, it appears that Christopher Nolan's true ambition was to helm a James Bond film, cleverly using the Batman franchise as a stepping stone to achieve that goal.
Nolan: Robin is too silly.
Also Nolan: *Names his character “Robin” so the audience gets it.
Much as I enjoyed Tom Hardy’s performance, I hate how it whitewashed a character who is built around Hispanic culture and stylings.
People complain about race swaps yet no one ever seems to complain about Bane, Ra's, and Talia being white washed. Hell Talia, Ra's, and Damien Wayne constantly get portrayed as just looking white in media
@@MILDMONSTER1234 That is partly because comic artists often ignore the nuances of a character's racial background (like how a lot of recent X Men artists portray Sunspot with light Hispanic features, even though Roberto is supposed to be Afro Brazilian).
@@eamonndeane587 This, its definitely better now but still. For as much crap as the harley quinn show gets at least that show actually remembered to make Damien look like a mixed race kid
@MILDMONSTER1234 I'm not a fan of the Harley Quinn show (a lot of the humour doesn't vibe with me AT All), but I can begrudgingly respect the animators for recognising that nuance.
X Men 97 depicting Sunspot as just looking tanned, though? That's worthy of an eye roll....
Oh boy, get ready when Harvey Dent and Commissioner Gordon got blackwashed.
But I do agree, I would have preferred a Hispanic actor take the role of Bane. Surprisingly, Injustice made me love the character more since he was fun and brutal to play as.
One thing that I do not like about this Nolan's realistic approach to Batman. Fantastical Batman is it supposed to have a lot of high-tech gadgets embedded within his costume. While at the same time still being able to fight at full capacity against 30 well trained henchmen at the first floor of a building. And still having the ability to fight 30 more and the big bad boss man.While still showing efficiency without breaking a sweat.
I think this isn’t directly Nolan’s fault I think it’s just execs wanting to use what worked before to guarantee money. I do agree that they don’t use most of what makes Batman who he is but Christopher Nolan’s Batman in the end is tied to Christopher Nolan’s story and the end result is having a great film with the Dark Knight and having a lot of people misunderstanding who Batman really is outside of the Dark Knight. This also accounts for the villains as well. In my opinion I still see Nolan’s series as a positive since it added new ideas and concepts that people at the time haven’t thought of for Batman or the superhero genre in general, anything that gives out new ideas for any genre is a positive, only when it becomes saturated is when we get these problems.
I was just thinking today about how the Joker should be written in modern stories.
Tbh I feel like none of the existing Jokers, not Mark Hammil, not Keith Ledger, not even the original comic Jokers ever really capitalized on his potential fully.
Joker should not be self-aware. And he always is.
When he jokes or taunts Batman, it always feels like he knows he's evil snd so any idea that he's just sick and needs help kinda goes out the window. He's just fucking with Batman and everyone else and getting away with it on an insanity plea. But he never feels like he's not in control. Like he doesn't know what he's doing.
If I wrote the Joker, I'd actually not make him a main villain. He should be a real wild card, either helping other villains or even Batman out but then twisting that help with a cruel irony purely for the sake of having a laugh. He should feel incomprehensible, like his sense of humour is not just dark, but alien.
And he wouldn't just kill people either. He'd do weird shit too.
Like, kidnapping a dozen carriages with babies in them and turning them into a racecar that he rushes into a highway. His schemes should be as hilarious as they are dangerous and sometimes even fucking stupid. He should even act against his own well-being for a laugh, be willing to be the butt of the joke.
This is what true chaos would be. This is what would make Joker even scarier as a foil to Batman: how could a detective who solves crimes through reason predict an adversary who has no idea what he's doing?
I feel like your over estimating the media literacy with joker in modern day, everyone thinks hes crazy and more importantly mentally ill, people look at the dark knight and the joker movie and will say "yeah a mentality ill person would do that." When all evidence to the contrary says otherwise. They have been too subtle with the evil element, to add to your modern joker make him refuse to take a label have him refuse to be called crazy and have the system keep him alive because they need to label his actions to justify his horrible crimes. "Hes an outlier, hes sick, no one sane could be capable of all this" make the audience grapple with the fact this is just a terrible person who wants to be horrible and batman with his greatest strength and flaw, his believe that anyone can be better and deserves every chance to try.
Exactly, the best Joker is one that just shows up at the worst possible time and he's either going to commit an atrocity or do something silly and dissappear again, and Batman never knows which. He should be almost like a running gag.
I can’t wait for someone to just say: he’s a dude dressed as a bat with a teen bird-themed sidekick, who fights a clown, a walking snowman, a man who likes crosswords, a scary plant lady, etc.
So, what’s the point of taking this seriously? Can’t have a comic without comedic elements, and subsequently suspending belief
I think its ironic that looking back on it, out of all the scenes that stick with me in the dark knight are probably the scene in which batman realizes that the jokers gunman were hostages, showing him actually thinking things through after all the other complex bait-and-switch plans joker did, and the follow-up scene where one of the intimate's throwing the controller for the explosives' on civilians ship, showing a more optimistic and hopeful view on society that ultimatly shows how the joker was wrong about how people would kill each other brought to there most desperate moments. These two scenes, while also really good scenes, I think I like the most is because actually shows glimpeses of the dark knight being a batman story rather than a story with batman
17 years later and you guys are still doing the "Nolan doesn't understand Batman and RUINED the character" and you're blaming him for stuff other directors did? K
Whos "you guys"
As someone who adores Batman and his rogues I missed when Batman villains were just allowed to be
Like I want Batman to go up his villains when they have petty human motivations
His villains are the best when their motivation are understandable even if we disagree with them
Like can’t the Mad Hatter be a creepy stalker and criminal not what the more “grounded” version makes him
Hell Joker was allowed to be fun without a grand scheme
Good ideas for TV not for Film
TV and film are two different mediums with different rules
It's funny how at around the same time "Batman: The Brave and the Bold" started which included comedy, nonsense, aliens and magic. Heck, characters sometimes sing.
the title already got me going "(slams the desk) THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!"
I think Batman as a whole is honestly pretty edge lord friendly. Especially post Nolan. I was going into my freshman year when DK came out and I was honestly always annoyed how everyone was so obsessed with joker and didn’t seem to really care about Batman. By the time I left high school Superman became and still is my favorite superhero. Stories like for all seasons, secret origin, all star, last son, new 52 Action Comics, Kingdom Come, Brainiac and watching STAS really made me realize how great he was.
Showing my age but when Batman 89 came out people very much still dressed like that in major cities. Definitely on the tail end of the trend but still in fashion.
Nolan made three good Batman movies. What everyone else did in response is on them.
The worst thing you can do when making a superhero movie, DC in particular. Is try to make it realistic, grounded, and try to make it feel like it takes place in OUR world. When it shouldn't feel like it does, because it DOESN'T. all you are doing by making that creative decision is dampening the creativity, characters, locations, fun, uniqueness, and heart and soul of the entire universe
I feel like this is a symptom of an over all issue in comic based media. When a hit comic adaptation drops it’s like that becomes a baseline for everything else to draw from, including the original comics themselves. Look at marvel for example, for years the comics would morph and shift characters around to better reflect the movies coming out, insert character gets a fresh new run to jump into etc. it’s like that new adaptation is though of as legitimate or there’s a thought of brand synergy. So even though the original was what made the character iconic now we have to reflect the adaptation instead of it being its own thing.