For what it's worth, Rocky is actually supposed to be kinda bad. The whole point is that he's a working class, borderline "special person" who goes the distance with a much stronger, smarter man.
Yeah, it's also the first movie, he is supposed to be basically washed up at that point. But Creed was not stronger, he was faster and smarter but Rocky was always strong and tough that was what he had going for him.
@@no_nameyouknow Yeah, that's true, Rocky is definitely meant to be physically strong as fuck. Creed is his superior as a boxer in most ways, but underestimated him. He was trying to crush a can and ran into a keg.
He is not. He is supposed to be a tough jorneyman that is good at boxing and knowing the fundamentals, but still so far from the level of a champion to create that underdog scenario you mention.
Yeah, rocky was just a tough mf who hit hard in the first movie but he wasnt a good boxer. The first movie was about him being the underdog and having the grit to pull through against a great champion
Honestly, most superheroes don't need to. That's why The Hulk and Superman get bodied by supervillains that have the same power level. They never learned how to fight because a sloppy punch from the Hulk or Superman will kill basically anyone on the planet
very good point.. I can't remember what cartoon it was from, but it was a Justice League cartoon, Batman, Superman, and Stargirl, all end up getting switched to each other's bodies. Both Superman and Stargirl struggle, while Batman who never relied on superpowers and actually trained to be a combatant, doesn't have the slightest trouble.
Which is also why characters like wonder woman and similar are combatively superior, cuz she has the combat skill and the superhuman power to match. I love watching most of her animated fight scenes. They're so clean. Although I'm sure to save on budget, they do show her doing the same as superman sometimes.
he didn’t learn boxing from his father who didn’t want to train him. Stick trained him but maybe focused too much on other combat sports and martial arts than boxing
My understanding was his father was more of a street fighter but would get hired to take dives in professional matches. I feel like I remember that from somewhere. Let me know if I just made that up or not.
I'm always more forgiving with the cap scene. Not just because he is taking stress out on the bag so form is less important, but this is also a cap who hasn't had much unarmed combat training by this point. Not much time to take boxing classes while fighting in WW2, and he has probably only been thawed out for a few months.
Not sure about boxing, but the US combat troops were trained Judo and wrestling during WWII. More to boost the morale, since doesn’t really help against mavhone guns and bombs, but it happened. Jack Dempsey actually trained troops and made books about grappling for them. In the comics Cap is one of the best non-armed fighters in the world, here I guess they want to show that he is just ridiculously strong.
@moz5831 Fair points! Though I will point out a few things. Modern soldiers and marines today are taught unarmed combat as well. And it is for one VERY specific reason. Get the guy off you long enough to shoot them. You can't really train people how to properly fight at a high level in a 12-week boot camp. Even if all you focused on was unarmed combat, which they probably don't even devote 12 days to it, it still wouldn't be enough to be good by any stretch of the imagination. You can see in the films that Cap gets more skilled. Look at his style of fighting in the first film vs. Winter Soldier. He uses a lot more kicks, throws, clinch work, etc. They show he gets better as the films go on. True! Cap is one of the best fighters in the Marvel comics, but how he got that way is very vague. The few comics that do mention it point to him having "private tutors" or "instructors." As well as mentioning how he was taken under the wings of Rex Applegate and William Fairbairn who trained him in martial arts. Which isn't ever mentioned in the films, so we can't assume happend in the MCU timeline. 🤷♂️
100%agree with the Cap scene. If you remember. Its only like a week into bootcamp he got the serum. But then he was put on stage inside of taught how to fight. Its not till a year i think later hes over seas doing the performance. Then goes Rogue. So yeah he was in fights but like never refined technique. Then he gets frozen and thawed out 70 years later. Theyre kind Vague on the time frame of him being awake. But that could be like 2 days later. You do see him get better each movie. Implying hes learning on the go.
For something like this, I think that before you ask "is this character hitting the bag properly?" you should ask "should this character know how to hit the bag properly?" and "is there anything (like high emotions) that explains why this character is hitting the bag badly?"
I was going to say this exactly. The "Never Back Down" scene in particular seems like it's intentionally having the student show poor form in order to emphasize that they're a novice, and need to learn from the mentor character.
"They don't need to, they're so strong already" Ok but as a super villain, who would you rather get punched by, a random guy with super strength or a random guy with super strength who is also Mike Tyson
The first option, not because of anything to do with stance, but more to do with the fact that'd I'd be really weirded out of if a super started nibbling my ear during a fight.
That's him. In the corner! That's him in the - Spot- Light! Losing his Religion! Trying to keep- a view! ...and I don't know if he can do it! Oh, No! I've said too much!
@@selassieaspen9940 Not comparable. Kirby villains feats include: blowing up planets on accident while traveling, killing all life in the universe, or destroying the universe /realities. Kirby just kills them and goes back to sleep. The only ones comparable are peak Sonic and maybe Shulk.
@@milosstojanovic4623yeah but those low guard boxers are either 1. Absolute rookies that think they are all that 2. World champion level fighters like naseem or ali
The Divergence bit looks like she's trying to do Silat but without any blades. EDIT: Seen a lot of comments suggesting other styles or formats of blade work, various types of guard, etc, thank you, silat was simply the first that came to mind for some reason, and y'all reminded everyone that there's plenty else it could also be. 😁👍
to take it from the fight joordinator JJ Perry, "[Stunt coordinator] Garrett [Warren] and I took it upon ourselves to do something a bit different. The way that they stood, it’s what old boxers from the ‘30s and ‘40s called peekaboo stance, where you put one elbow in front, and wrap the other hand across your stomach, and put a hand up by your chin and tuck your chin below your forward shoulder. It’s the way George Foreman used to stand. We lean them forward a bit more. We experimented with a bunch of things, and that stance and fighting position looked the most interesting. It was supposed to look like something was different. People usually say this to me when I’m doing a film. They go, ‘I want to see something that’s never been seen before.’ The problem is everything’s been seen before!" So, uh it's based on a peekaboo stance, which it clearly isn't, and also on Foreman's cross guard, which it also clearly isn't.
@@trs4184 clearly they didn't know shit about what they were talking about... That was far from peek a boo and more on hitman than anything if we base the stance on boxing
@@Rogue_ZeroI’m also on board with calling this Kali/Escrima/Balintawak. It’s the same strike pattern just without the escrima sticks. Originates from the Philippines. I have several Filipino friends that are proficient in this style some that have studied with Master Bobby Taboda. It’s really a fascinating form to watch when done well.
So, as someone that has done film choreography, a few MMA fights and a few Kickboxing bouts. Part of the reason they punch like that is because of the cinematographer/director. With the Daredevil one specifically, the director wanted him to "look like a boxer" which ironically makes Cox look less competent than his actual training footage.
One thing to point out, there are times actors are told to punch the bag in a “bad” way. Cause they want big movement that the audience can see rather then accurate punches to what a good fighter would throw.
Honestly, if you're a superhero you probably have muscles that can accelerate their contractions to beyond the speed of sound in 2 nanoseconds. At that level it doesn't matter if you punch with wide looping fists or not, because your big looping punch is still going to be far too fucking fast to counter anyway
Part of it is these are all actors, they're not martial artists, but there's also an interview with martial artist-turned-actor Michael Jai White who said what works in a real fight doesn't always look good on screen. And so the techniques we see in movies/TV fights are focused around what looks good to the camera and on-screen, and not necessarily what is "right" (proper technique, form, etc.) or would really work in an actual fight.
Except that's referring to when you're acting out a fight scene and not punching a punching bag, and it doesn't look good at all so there truly is no point.
Its understandable that he sucks in never back down, but then the mentor comes in and tells him to start kicking aswell instead of correcting his very poor boxing technique. This reveals that his boxing was supposed to be decent.
@Olixer109 Also, the Rocky Movies are shot backwards order with Stallone already being in great shape when they start shooting, then he lets himself go and gain fat weight.
@romanpreuss3489 I thi k its more that he just slugs at everything. Earlier in the movie, the antagonist points out that old fashioned fisticuffs wouldnt work and that he needs to mix it up so i guess it was for narrative consistency.
@@pullupenthusiast3800Not necessarily. If Cap - a roided-out super soldier who can flip a motorcycle or arm-curl a helicopter - his form would be the least of anyone's concern 😂
@@giambrew the fight scenes ironically look so much better and daredevil is known for them, which makes it frustrating that they arent as detail oriented for smth simple like a punching bag montage
@@noahllanos286 I’m going to assume trim the budget is what caused that so they don’t pay a choreographer for those days. “Ah, we don’t need him on set, it’s just a montage”
@@noahllanos286i think its becouse the stunt actor (wich is amazing by the way) did the fight scenes but not the punching bag ones becouse someone said: "what is the risk of punching a punching bag? Is less dangerous for the actor so we gonna put the actor in this scenes"
The michael jai white scene is just showing the difference between momentum and kinetic energy. Momentum tends to move people but if you can get your strikes moving faster they create cavitation which causes more tissue damage (like a gunshot wound). Every strike has both but some styles emphasize one over the other. Here its muay thai vs karate.
...cavitation? You mean hydrostatic shock? If you're causing bubbles to form in you opponents flesh when you hit them, I think they're dead. I really don't think someone will survive anything that's going fast enough to cause cavitation.
Cause the hammerfist girl scenes were apparently about an untrained beginner learning some Ultra weird fantasy style, it's far worse if someone like Daredevil don't know how to do it properly for obvious reasons.
The Cap thing is phenomenal, he is just working the pivot on the hooks and trying not to kill the bag, then slowly ramps up as memories seep into his attention. Then the cross he does shift his feet for it, right after you complained about that. He was working on a specific thing, that is a phenomenal example of someone with superhuman strength actually training correctly on a specific technique and purely focusing on technique.
My take on this is that the actor (sometimes isnt trained) but they want the close up scene with their face, so they sometimes have no choice but to let them get away with that (most directors may not be able to see the subtleties for these punching bag scenes) and then even when it comes to their stunt double coming in to do the fight choreography, the way punches done in action scenes are meant to look more dynamic and to reduce potential risk of injuring the other stunt actor and also to allow the camera man to have a higher chance of stacking the shot so it looks like it connects (yes stunt acting punches usually are technically wrong)
@@Vitor20XXhow the hell is he overrated? He's one of the best Martial Artist Actors and he's had WAY less success than the likes if Seagal, JCVD, Norris, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Chan etc, he's literally one of the most underrated out there.
The Daredevil scene sucks especially because the fights in the show are actually top level, the MCU wishes they had that level of quality and choreography as the DD show. This includes actually good punches, and not just from stunt doubles but Charlie Cox himself who was doing most of the fight scenes and almost all his own stunts by season 3 (the prison scene is a real one take and 100% Charlie). Watch it if you haven't, but even when something happens that causes him to do less acrobatic kicking and switch to Muay Thai as his main style, it's _still_ so good and visceral. (Apparently when Charlie Cox eventually got into the MCU the people working with him were impressed because they would storyboard a scene on location with Charlie, expecting that they had to bring in a stunt double for the flips and acrobatics they were planning, but then he would just super casually do all the stunts right there without any fanfare. Even though he's mostly a dramatic actor his physical skills from working on the show were actually great.) The Rocky movies have notoriously bad boxing, I didn't think that was an unpopular opinion. You go to those movies to see the heart, not good technique. Even the Creed movies which had better choreo and real boxers at times was still just no footwork CTE trading slugfests.
1 : This is a trope called *Good Old fistcuffs* : where a styless brawler beats a trained martial artist (TV Tropes) 2: Shoutout to one of my favorite old school boxer, Tommy Moore from the Bartitsu Lab (youtube channel of the same name)
You'd think, with a movie that has a billion dollar budget, they'd be able to hire a decent boxing coach to train the actors. I think Rocky was using ortho in that scene so the camera could see his expression. Just a convenience of film making over attention to detail.
The first ROCKY was extremely low budget, they worked with what they had. Stallone had hardly any boxing experience before that and brought himself up to speed in a very short time. For that it's more than okay.
@@seraphinaaizen6278 Agree on those blockbusters. Apart from that the same goes for cultural advisors and language coaches. Seems like all the money goes into the CGI with no attention o the important stuff, that would make it somewhat more compelling.
Erm, have you seen Mike Tyson work a bag? I've seen the video you are referring to but he doesn't put it that way. Some kicks/combos don't look good on film, but bad form is a very different thing
thats not what he said, he was talking about stuff like question mark kicks which dont look good on camera since its too fast for the average person to really understand whats being done and why its effective, it would just look like a weird kick
I kept thinking of the scene where Russell Crowe punches a wrapped up water tank in Soldier. I can't remember if the punching is good or bad. But I can remember the absurdity of him punching a metal tank to show his a human in peak form.
with the cap scene. ive seen some videos of 70s and 80s heavyweight boxers hit the bag that way. i think george foreman was one. i think they used that method to get hip rotation and power.
So one thing I will say about the Captain America scene in it's favor is it's pretty similar to the old videos of Big George Foreman working the heavy bag during his training. He would have sessions where he just stands in front of the bag ripping low body shots into it just rotating his hips and barely moving his feet. I don't think anyone would seriously say Foreman doesn't know how to punch or work a bag, but he did like to just stand in front of that heavy bag and rip into it at times with little to no footwork and it made those bags look like fucking playdo after he was done. I think with Steve its just a situation of him wanting to feel pain in his knuckles and hands and so he's just ripping into the bags where they have the most filling / are the hardest.
the divergent one makes me think of stances and moves you’d do with escrima sticks, except they aren’t holding the sticks. so the moves don’t make sense bc you don’t have the weapons maintaining the guard and distance or the reach on the strikes, so it becomes that weird hammerfist
The Captain America one from the first Avengers movie is not great, largely because the bag isn't actually there. The bag is CGI. They did it that way so they could make it jump more and make the chains louder and all that. I'm not sure why they didn't just make the bag lighter and add the "heavier" sound in post-production.
@@senseisethreacts As I recall, in the shots from behind with the short body hooks, the bag is added in. The one where he punches the bag across the room I think is a practical effect. Let me try and find the source.
What a great video. My wife and I started doing Muay Thai about 3 weeks ago and so much of what you're pointing out as wrong is just great pointers for us to watch out for. And after actually learning the boxing side of Muay Thai, it is crazy how so much of boxing in movies and TV shows is just wrong. Especially the foot work and stances, aside from people dropping guards and not lining up elbows. Thank you for the video.
I think the hooks to the body always look good because of where the hand has to drop to before the punch is thrown. Your elbow is naturally by your side and has no choice but to be directly behind the fist. It is also a punch that naturally pulls you into a motion that creates some body twist. I personal think you would have to work to throw a bad body hook.
It's cause these are actors. Fighting is an alien concept to them, just like when a 9 mm knocks a guy back 20 feet. There never has been realism and never will be.
No!!! there is no right way to provide critique without damaging an entire era of great movies!... let the veterans live on... (catching falling coconuts directly to the abdomen...seems legit👍)
For the Daredevil show 1: Daredevil can see through eco-location. 2: I think they were trying to sell that he's irish, cuz big part movie is his guilt with being a Catholic.
You just gave a weak/no muscle person a 5 compared to Daredevil at 2.8. lol Daredevil was self taught until Stick came along to train him. After that he was trained by the Ninja known as The Hand via Elektra. After that he was just a student of martial arts in general, and he DEFINITELY would have taken a liking to Wing Chun / Tai Chi type stuff for all the sensitivity training. The stunt choreographers also designed the Daredevil bits while completely focused on the fact that he is blind and altered how he fought accordingly. There's actually a GREAT vid out there on it that you should review when ya get a chance.
Deardevil does know a few martial arts in the comics however , In the show I believe it's boxing , judo , Bjj and karate , with some techniques from his sensei .
The Quicksilver kick you were complimenting was downright awful in my estimation. He kicked the bag and then his leg dropped vertically downward. He thrusted at it. The other guy was completely correct. If you waste energy trying to move the bag you will not cause any internal shockwave that causes damage. Notice the second guy instructing him on how kick. His leg stayed in line with the direction of the impact even after the force dissipated. That’s the way to kick. Or really, that’s the way to do any strike intended to create concussive internal damage. There are thrusting techniques too, but they usually involve the heel, and the biggest hazard to being hit by a thrusting strike is what troublesome things you might running into behind you.
Just remembering, in never back down scene for example. it makes sense the lack of skill in form and in throwing punches. The guy was just a street brawler with a couple of weeks/mounths training.
"Never Back Down" is showing that the kid can't punch at all, so it's hard to say it's bad when it's meant to be bad. Unlike "Daredevil" which is meant to show off his amazing skill, which he does not have. Cap is trying to not blow up the bags. The only time he moves his feet, the bag goes flying. But, that 1-2 combo is pretty bad... everything else I agree with
thoughts on super-strength and "proper" punching: -if you push off your back foot with super strength, wouldn't that launch you forward/airborne? -if cap'n throws a serious punch, it would destroy a bag, right? So it wouldn't it also _kill a man?_ so he has to practice "bad" ones so he can hit without killing people by accident he's gotta practice and work to be able to have that 'light touch' _even when he's upset_
I was a semi pro boxer till father time caught up. Anytime you hit a heavy bag . It is never the same as a fight. EVER ! Its more to work up a sweat and develop power.
This seems like an odd video to me. I can see being critical watching actual trained fighters demonstrating bad form. That would make sense. But criticizing actors, just seems strange to me. Not to mention, many of these people who we see in this video are not playing the part of a trained boxer or MMA fighter. Why would you expect that a firefighter would have some flawless form on the heavy bag? Or hell, even a superhero. Superheroes usually rely on their supernatural speed and strength or they count on their tech, like Ironman. They are not trained fighters either....at least most of them aren't. BTW, that was one of the things that Rocky could do in the movie, which was switch stances. Also, the Never Back Down movie.....the whole point of that scene was to show what he looked like when he was just starting out. He was supposed to look inexperienced. It's also strange that this guy didn't show any footage of himself on the heavy bag, showing proper form and technique.
The girl that was doing the hammer arms 7:25 that was Sean Strickland MMA style where he puts his hand on his chin then over his body, but he doesn't attack how she attacks, with the hammer fists and leaving openings, just a bit weird
Daredevil is my favorite superhero show ever but that scene always killed me. He was raised by a boxer too!! Cmon Matt. How did the choreographers let that rock because otherwise all the fights are great in that show.
In shaolin we were also taught to mostly through vertical punches. Turning the punch is bad for street fighting. Which what he does, because its a bit more telegraphed, and its easier to have your arm broken.
The problem I have with the scene from Never Back Down is the entire idea of moving the bag in the first place. You're not trying to move the bag, you're trying to punch a hole in the thing.
As a combat veteran, I can say without a doubt that Cap SHOULD know how to throw a good punch and unarmed combat training has been MANDATORY for all service members in basic training for a long time. Also, as someone who's conpleted several spec ops coarses, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have additional advanced combat training considering the types of missions they sent him on. Hell, even the most basic SERE course, SV-80B had some extra combat training if I remember correctly.
For what it's worth, Rocky is actually supposed to be kinda bad. The whole point is that he's a working class, borderline "special person" who goes the distance with a much stronger, smarter man.
Yeah, it's also the first movie, he is supposed to be basically washed up at that point. But Creed was not stronger, he was faster and smarter but Rocky was always strong and tough that was what he had going for him.
@@no_nameyouknow Yeah, that's true, Rocky is definitely meant to be physically strong as fuck. Creed is his superior as a boxer in most ways, but underestimated him. He was trying to crush a can and ran into a keg.
He is not. He is supposed to be a tough jorneyman that is good at boxing and knowing the fundamentals, but still so far from the level of a champion to create that underdog scenario you mention.
haha special person, fair
Yeah, rocky was just a tough mf who hit hard in the first movie but he wasnt a good boxer. The first movie was about him being the underdog and having the grit to pull through against a great champion
Honestly, most superheroes don't need to. That's why The Hulk and Superman get bodied by supervillains that have the same power level. They never learned how to fight because a sloppy punch from the Hulk or Superman will kill basically anyone on the planet
…that’s a great point
very good point.. I can't remember what cartoon it was from, but it was a Justice League cartoon, Batman, Superman, and Stargirl, all end up getting switched to each other's bodies. Both Superman and Stargirl struggle, while Batman who never relied on superpowers and actually trained to be a combatant, doesn't have the slightest trouble.
To add to this, a lot of technique is about not hurting yourself, especially all the small bones in your hands. Not a concern for most super heroes.
@@cosmic_JAV Yeah I remember, it was from justice league action
Which is also why characters like wonder woman and similar are combatively superior, cuz she has the combat skill and the superhuman power to match. I love watching most of her animated fight scenes. They're so clean. Although I'm sure to save on budget, they do show her doing the same as superman sometimes.
It's worse for daredevil since his father was a supposed to be a professional boxer
And he was trained by a professional boxer.
he didn’t learn boxing from his father who didn’t want to train him. Stick trained him but maybe focused too much on other combat sports and martial arts than boxing
My understanding was his father was more of a street fighter but would get hired to take dives in professional matches. I feel like I remember that from somewhere. Let me know if I just made that up or not.
Unless I'm misunderstanding reality, your father's actions don't belong to you...
@@prince_of_stride123 depends on when and who was writing the story. But what you were saying was used at least once.
If Captain America punched a bag with good form, there wouldn't be a bag anymore.
true, true; this is true 😄
I think actors throw punches that look good on camera thats just it ofcourse they can us proper technique but does it look good ?.
Well then he's kind of wasting his time lol. He should get a different thing that he can actually do some excercise on.
conor mcgregor is a pro fighter yet he looked terrible acting like one
Also Steve probably did't have any actual hand to hand combat training at this point, he was improvising.
dosent matter how good of an actor, the heavy bag will expose you.
Leave Roseanne out of this!
@@GaryTongue-zn5diWho’s Roseanne?
I'm always more forgiving with the cap scene. Not just because he is taking stress out on the bag so form is less important, but this is also a cap who hasn't had much unarmed combat training by this point. Not much time to take boxing classes while fighting in WW2, and he has probably only been thawed out for a few months.
This makes me feel better
Not sure about boxing, but the US combat troops were trained Judo and wrestling during WWII. More to boost the morale, since doesn’t really help against mavhone guns and bombs, but it happened. Jack Dempsey actually trained troops and made books about grappling for them.
In the comics Cap is one of the best non-armed fighters in the world, here I guess they want to show that he is just ridiculously strong.
@moz5831 Fair points! Though I will point out a few things.
Modern soldiers and marines today are taught unarmed combat as well. And it is for one VERY specific reason. Get the guy off you long enough to shoot them.
You can't really train people how to properly fight at a high level in a 12-week boot camp. Even if all you focused on was unarmed combat, which they probably don't even devote 12 days to it, it still wouldn't be enough to be good by any stretch of the imagination.
You can see in the films that Cap gets more skilled. Look at his style of fighting in the first film vs. Winter Soldier. He uses a lot more kicks, throws, clinch work, etc. They show he gets better as the films go on.
True! Cap is one of the best fighters in the Marvel comics, but how he got that way is very vague. The few comics that do mention it point to him having "private tutors" or "instructors." As well as mentioning how he was taken under the wings of Rex Applegate and William Fairbairn who trained him in martial arts. Which isn't ever mentioned in the films, so we can't assume happend in the MCU timeline. 🤷♂️
@senseisethreacts He is still awesome either way Seth! At least his combat is a lot better in the sequels lol. 😄
100%agree with the Cap scene. If you remember. Its only like a week into bootcamp he got the serum. But then he was put on stage inside of taught how to fight. Its not till a year i think later hes over seas doing the performance. Then goes Rogue. So yeah he was in fights but like never refined technique. Then he gets frozen and thawed out 70 years later. Theyre kind Vague on the time frame of him being awake. But that could be like 2 days later. You do see him get better each movie. Implying hes learning on the go.
For something like this, I think that before you ask "is this character hitting the bag properly?" you should ask "should this character know how to hit the bag properly?" and "is there anything (like high emotions) that explains why this character is hitting the bag badly?"
I was going to say this exactly. The "Never Back Down" scene in particular seems like it's intentionally having the student show poor form in order to emphasize that they're a novice, and need to learn from the mentor character.
he just needs to make sure it lands, he already has super strength so skill is irrelevant
@NiL_Echo
To be fair, Daredevil is _still pretty _*_thoroughly_* disappointing given those facts, lol.
If the character is supposed to know how to fight then emotions shouldn't matter.
@@ivoryas1696 Yeah, honestly that scene is dark enough they should've just had the stunt double do it.
"They don't need to, they're so strong already"
Ok but as a super villain, who would you rather get punched by, a random guy with super strength or a random guy with super strength who is also Mike Tyson
The second option, it would hurt less, because I'd be vaporised/instantly dead 🙃
The first option, not because of anything to do with stance, but more to do with the fact that'd I'd be really weirded out of if a super started nibbling my ear during a fight.
Mike Tyson isnt Wall Level while Fictional characters are.
@@วิชชากรสุขวัฒน์ he is wall level
@@วิชชากรสุขวัฒน์what
I love that little seth in the corner
That's him. In the corner!
That's him in the - Spot- Light!
Losing his Religion!
Trying to keep- a view! ...and I don't know if he can do it!
Oh, No! I've said too much!
I'm gonna become a superhero just so Sensei Seth can see me box
Punching kirby is a bold move.
if there's any Smash character that could literally eat all your best shots, it's Kirby
Dudes canonically kills gods, i dont think hes gonna take it
So has every smash character. Pit literally did it again 25 years on a dead series. Even fire emblem does it. 😂@@nixetoile
@@selassieaspen9940
Not comparable.
Kirby villains feats include: blowing up planets on accident while traveling, killing all life in the universe, or destroying the universe /realities.
Kirby just kills them and goes back to sleep.
The only ones comparable are peak Sonic and maybe Shulk.
The best part of the Rocky movies is his awesome blocking. He uses his face!!!😊
I wish I knew how to block like that. It's just so hard to do
Not once did he put his hands up. What a beast.
Many boxers use lower guard, not at all surprising.
@@milosstojanovic4623yeah but those low guard boxers are either
1. Absolute rookies that think they are all that
2. World champion level fighters like naseem or ali
@@milosstojanovic4623most of the time its a really arrogant boxer that gets wrecked easily
The Divergence bit looks like she's trying to do Silat but without any blades.
EDIT: Seen a lot of comments suggesting other styles or formats of blade work, various types of guard, etc, thank you, silat was simply the first that came to mind for some reason, and y'all reminded everyone that there's plenty else it could also be.
😁👍
Thought they look like kali without the baston
I remember that Bale’s Batman liked to use hammer fists, but he at least mixed a lot of elbows in with them too
to take it from the fight joordinator JJ Perry, "[Stunt coordinator] Garrett [Warren] and I took it upon ourselves to do something a bit different. The way that they stood, it’s what old boxers from the ‘30s and ‘40s called peekaboo stance, where you put one elbow in front, and wrap the other hand across your stomach, and put a hand up by your chin and tuck your chin below your forward shoulder. It’s the way George Foreman used to stand. We lean them forward a bit more. We experimented with a bunch of things, and that stance and fighting position looked the most interesting. It was supposed to look like something was different. People usually say this to me when I’m doing a film. They go, ‘I want to see something that’s never been seen before.’ The problem is everything’s been seen before!"
So, uh it's based on a peekaboo stance, which it clearly isn't, and also on Foreman's cross guard, which it also clearly isn't.
@@trs4184 clearly they didn't know shit about what they were talking about... That was far from peek a boo and more on hitman than anything if we base the stance on boxing
@@Rogue_ZeroI’m also on board with calling this Kali/Escrima/Balintawak. It’s the same strike pattern just without the escrima sticks. Originates from the Philippines. I have several Filipino friends that are proficient in this style some that have studied with Master Bobby Taboda. It’s really a fascinating form to watch when done well.
So, as someone that has done film choreography, a few MMA fights and a few Kickboxing bouts. Part of the reason they punch like that is because of the cinematographer/director. With the Daredevil one specifically, the director wanted him to "look like a boxer" which ironically makes Cox look less competent than his actual training footage.
One thing to point out, there are times actors are told to punch the bag in a “bad” way. Cause they want big movement that the audience can see rather then accurate punches to what a good fighter would throw.
The Frames just makes a fast punch look like a blur.
Honestly, if you're a superhero you probably have muscles that can accelerate their contractions to beyond the speed of sound in 2 nanoseconds. At that level it doesn't matter if you punch with wide looping fists or not, because your big looping punch is still going to be far too fucking fast to counter anyway
Tbf, the Never Back Down scene is supposed to have him be bad at that point in the movie. He gets way better as he trains.
Idk about WAY better 😂😂
Still end up fighting bad at the final fight. Also, his rival antagonist's attacks are easy to spot and counter in real life match.
@@battub7384his rival antagonist.
Isn't he supposed to have good boxing from the get go tho
@@che3601 no, he was formerly a football player. in never back down 2. one of them is a boxer yes.
Part of it is these are all actors, they're not martial artists, but there's also an interview with martial artist-turned-actor Michael Jai White who said what works in a real fight doesn't always look good on screen.
And so the techniques we see in movies/TV fights are focused around what looks good to the camera and on-screen, and not necessarily what is "right" (proper technique, form, etc.) or would really work in an actual fight.
Bruce Lee said the same thing
@kwazimoto
Not just that dumbass, but also the fact they have to pull their punches and swing at each other and miss on purpose.
Except that's referring to when you're acting out a fight scene and not punching a punching bag, and it doesn't look good at all so there truly is no point.
I remember that video interview with MJW
Rocky people were just hating and the never back down part is before he's actually gotten training so it makes sense he sucks.
Its understandable that he sucks in never back down, but then the mentor comes in and tells him to start kicking aswell instead of correcting his very poor boxing technique.
This reveals that his boxing was supposed to be decent.
@Olixer109
Also, the Rocky Movies are shot backwards order with Stallone already being in great shape when they start shooting, then he lets himself go and gain fat weight.
@romanpreuss3489 I thi k its more that he just slugs at everything. Earlier in the movie, the antagonist points out that old fashioned fisticuffs wouldnt work and that he needs to mix it up so i guess it was for narrative consistency.
The thing about cap punching is, there is anger, trauma and a lot of emotion. No focus. He is not training for form, he is venting.
*Hardcore Body Spammer*
Right but cap isn’t real and if he was his form would be impeccable no matter the circumstance.
@@pullupenthusiast3800Not necessarily. If Cap - a roided-out super soldier who can flip a motorcycle or arm-curl a helicopter - his form would be the least of anyone's concern 😂
@@ChineduOpara cap in the comics has immense training in hand to hand combat, he would have good form.
@@pullupenthusiast3800 I agree. What I mean is, his form would be low priority
some of my least favorite scenes from daredevil were when he was training on the heavy bag
Do they not have a stunt or fight choreographer for training scenes?
@@giambrew the fight scenes ironically look so much better and daredevil is known for them, which makes it frustrating that they arent as detail oriented for smth simple like a punching bag montage
@@noahllanos286 I’m going to assume trim the budget is what caused that so they don’t pay a choreographer for those days. “Ah, we don’t need him on set, it’s just a montage”
@@noahllanos286i think its becouse the stunt actor (wich is amazing by the way) did the fight scenes but not the punching bag ones becouse someone said: "what is the risk of punching a punching bag? Is less dangerous for the actor so we gonna put the actor in this scenes"
@@ismaelalles this actually makes a lot of sense
Most of the actors look like every Muay Thai beginner. Ever.
The michael jai white scene is just showing the difference between momentum and kinetic energy. Momentum tends to move people but if you can get your strikes moving faster they create cavitation which causes more tissue damage (like a gunshot wound). Every strike has both but some styles emphasize one over the other. Here its muay thai vs karate.
Exactly! He's basically demonstrated the difference between knocking someone back vs kicking through them
I was surprised he gave the only actual martial artist a mid grade
thank you i thought i was going crazy
...cavitation? You mean hydrostatic shock? If you're causing bubbles to form in you opponents flesh when you hit them, I think they're dead. I really don't think someone will survive anything that's going fast enough to cause cavitation.
The Rocky "meat scene" is iconic. Who hates on that?
Right?!?!? The films are legendary... plus Stallone really trained for those films. His form is meant to be rough... He's an underdog!!!
Can we have more reactions to the "gems" called never back down movies ?
The first one still slaps idc what ppl say, it’s still awesome.
He's reacted to the first one
7:20 It's Bullshido. Happy to help! 👍
You have now become one of my favorite humans because I hate the way they fight in that movie 😂😂
How was hammerfist girl not the worst one 🤣🤣🤣 Also I just ordered the daredevil hayabusa gloves, time for some vertical punches!
Cause the hammerfist girl scenes were apparently about an untrained beginner learning some Ultra weird fantasy style, it's far worse if someone like Daredevil don't know how to do it properly for obvious reasons.
Suuuuuuure Like you know more than Captain America, He has been doing this since before you were born.
Next: Pro actors react to fighter acting skills.
That would actually be very good since so many fighters end up acting on movies
@@espelhogamerand they are bad actors
Id love to see you and icy Mike breakdown scenes from jack reacher, punisher, and without remorse
I'd like to see you react to the different wooden dummy scenes. The one of Felicity from Arrow doing it is painful to watch.
The Cap thing is phenomenal, he is just working the pivot on the hooks and trying not to kill the bag, then slowly ramps up as memories seep into his attention. Then the cross he does shift his feet for it, right after you complained about that. He was working on a specific thing, that is a phenomenal example of someone with superhuman strength actually training correctly on a specific technique and purely focusing on technique.
My take on this is that the actor (sometimes isnt trained) but they want the close up scene with their face, so they sometimes have no choice but to let them get away with that (most directors may not be able to see the subtleties for these punching bag scenes) and then even when it comes to their stunt double coming in to do the fight choreography, the way punches done in action scenes are meant to look more dynamic and to reduce potential risk of injuring the other stunt actor and also to allow the camera man to have a higher chance of stacking the shot so it looks like it connects (yes stunt acting punches usually are technically wrong)
Michael Jai White is legit black belt and eight different martial arts so he definitely knows what he’s talking about
One would think, right?
popping in at 5:58 is gold
Giving Michael Jai White a 6 is actually insane lol
Jai white is overrated
@@Vitor20XXhow the hell is he overrated? He's one of the best Martial Artist Actors and he's had WAY less success than the likes if Seagal, JCVD, Norris, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Chan etc, he's literally one of the most underrated out there.
the part where you called me weak small and frail really got me in the feels
"Oh, oh Daredevil, oh no, no, no, no."
I almost spat out my dinner 😂
The Daredevil scene sucks especially because the fights in the show are actually top level, the MCU wishes they had that level of quality and choreography as the DD show. This includes actually good punches, and not just from stunt doubles but Charlie Cox himself who was doing most of the fight scenes and almost all his own stunts by season 3 (the prison scene is a real one take and 100% Charlie). Watch it if you haven't, but even when something happens that causes him to do less acrobatic kicking and switch to Muay Thai as his main style, it's _still_ so good and visceral. (Apparently when Charlie Cox eventually got into the MCU the people working with him were impressed because they would storyboard a scene on location with Charlie, expecting that they had to bring in a stunt double for the flips and acrobatics they were planning, but then he would just super casually do all the stunts right there without any fanfare. Even though he's mostly a dramatic actor his physical skills from working on the show were actually great.)
The Rocky movies have notoriously bad boxing, I didn't think that was an unpopular opinion. You go to those movies to see the heart, not good technique. Even the Creed movies which had better choreo and real boxers at times was still just no footwork CTE trading slugfests.
1 : This is a trope called *Good Old fistcuffs* : where a styless brawler beats a trained martial artist (TV Tropes)
2: Shoutout to one of my favorite old school boxer, Tommy Moore from the Bartitsu Lab (youtube channel of the same name)
With the never back down one he should’ve compared to the later montage of him hitting that combo to show his training progression
You'd think, with a movie that has a billion dollar budget, they'd be able to hire a decent boxing coach to train the actors.
I think Rocky was using ortho in that scene so the camera could see his expression. Just a convenience of film making over attention to detail.
The first ROCKY was extremely low budget, they worked with what they had. Stallone had hardly any boxing experience before that and brought himself up to speed in a very short time.
For that it's more than okay.
@@mercatorjubio3804 Yeah, I wasn't talking about Rocky in the first sentence. I was talking about the Marvel movies and other high budget attempts.
@@seraphinaaizen6278
Agree on those blockbusters. Apart from that the same goes for cultural advisors and language coaches. Seems like all the money goes into the CGI with no attention o the important stuff, that would make it somewhat more compelling.
Cap's fight with Winter Soldier in the street was epic. Cap threw a crazy flying knee and hit a suplex on Bucky.
If you're planning on doing a part 2, I think I remember the original Roadhouse movie having pretty questionable bag work.
Good punches don't look good on camera. Michael Jai White explains it pretty well.
Erm, have you seen Mike Tyson work a bag? I've seen the video you are referring to but he doesn't put it that way. Some kicks/combos don't look good on film, but bad form is a very different thing
thats not what he said, he was talking about stuff like question mark kicks which dont look good on camera since its too fast for the average person to really understand whats being done and why its effective, it would just look like a weird kick
Bad punches looks even worse.
Idk where he said that but I disagree!
@@johngr1747 he didn't say it, but what hes reffering to is something similar he said in the jesse enkamp video
I kept thinking of the scene where Russell Crowe punches a wrapped up water tank in Soldier. I can't remember if the punching is good or bad. But I can remember the absurdity of him punching a metal tank to show his a human in peak form.
Kurt Russell.
with the cap scene. ive seen some videos of 70s and 80s heavyweight boxers hit the bag that way. i think george foreman was one. i think they used that method to get hip rotation and power.
Yeah foreman did something like that but he did it right. By comparison evans is getting no power into his punches even though hes built like a tree.
Doesn't look that bad to me.
So one thing I will say about the Captain America scene in it's favor is it's pretty similar to the old videos of Big George Foreman working the heavy bag during his training. He would have sessions where he just stands in front of the bag ripping low body shots into it just rotating his hips and barely moving his feet. I don't think anyone would seriously say Foreman doesn't know how to punch or work a bag, but he did like to just stand in front of that heavy bag and rip into it at times with little to no footwork and it made those bags look like fucking playdo after he was done. I think with Steve its just a situation of him wanting to feel pain in his knuckles and hands and so he's just ripping into the bags where they have the most filling / are the hardest.
its like criticizing a fish for swimming when he is walking. you are criticizing their boxing for their film making
I think they are criticizing the boxing in films.
the divergent one makes me think of stances and moves you’d do with escrima sticks, except they aren’t holding the sticks. so the moves don’t make sense bc you don’t have the weapons maintaining the guard and distance or the reach on the strikes, so it becomes that weird hammerfist
As a fighter, most Superheroes Throw Good Punches…like every Batman
batman isnt a superhero, hes just a rich dude
I recommend watching Rocky hit the bag in the sixth part. I personally really liked the way he worked in that film (training scene)
The Captain America one from the first Avengers movie is not great, largely because the bag isn't actually there. The bag is CGI. They did it that way so they could make it jump more and make the chains louder and all that. I'm not sure why they didn't just make the bag lighter and add the "heavier" sound in post-production.
He’s 100% hitting a bag
@@senseisethreacts As I recall, in the shots from behind with the short body hooks, the bag is added in. The one where he punches the bag across the room I think is a practical effect. Let me try and find the source.
Unless Chris evans can somehow break the laws of physics, there’s definitely a bag there
What a great video. My wife and I started doing Muay Thai about 3 weeks ago and so much of what you're pointing out as wrong is just great pointers for us to watch out for. And after actually learning the boxing side of Muay Thai, it is crazy how so much of boxing in movies and TV shows is just wrong. Especially the foot work and stances, aside from people dropping guards and not lining up elbows.
Thank you for the video.
Divergent...you think her punching is bad, you should see the way she runs.
We talking about boxing
I think the hooks to the body always look good because of where the hand has to drop to before the punch is thrown. Your elbow is naturally by your side and has no choice but to be directly behind the fist. It is also a punch that naturally pulls you into a motion that creates some body twist. I personal think you would have to work to throw a bad body hook.
All I got from this is that Sensei Seth would beat Daredevil in a fight 👊
nup
Bullshit lol
It's cause these are actors. Fighting is an alien concept to them, just like when a 9 mm knocks a guy back 20 feet. There never has been realism and never will be.
I would love to see you react to the trainings sequence from Bloodsport & Kickboxer & No retreat No surrender from JCVD.
❤your work
No!!! there is no right way to provide critique without damaging an entire era of great movies!... let the veterans live on... (catching falling coconuts directly to the abdomen...seems legit👍)
2:48
“Ohhh, ohh daredevil oohhh no.... oh nooo.. noooo.. nooooo.... NOOOO!!”
When you’re infinitely strong you don’t need form.
Waht
🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢
Head movement though
💀💀💀
Until you fight someone else who's infinitely strong
@@guardian2-735 ur high😂😭
worst part about daredevil is that the scene is so dark they could've gotten away with a body double who can actually fight
"I'm watching the guy in the back more than I watch her"
Well, that's perfectly understandable that you don't want to hurt yourself, Seth!
It drives me nuts too, but the hands are always low because they want you to be able to see the actor
For the Daredevil show
1: Daredevil can see through eco-location.
2: I think they were trying to sell that he's irish, cuz big part movie is his guilt with being a Catholic.
Rocky just seems to be working power shots and we all know Rocky blocks with his face anyway 😂
At 5:40 , I think it looks like Keysi fighting system/defense lab.
"The dark knight" features Keysi fighting system as batman's style of fighting.
also kinda sorta looks like a bad impression of ryu's stance in street fighter 2, sorta haha
Not Keysi, maybe someone saw one seminar and based the choreography off that
I was thinking it might be a bad 52 Blocks skull and bones stance.
Daredevil fights like he's only seen bag work as a kid. Which, to be fair, is true.
You just gave a weak/no muscle person a 5 compared to Daredevil at 2.8. lol Daredevil was self taught until Stick came along to train him. After that he was trained by the Ninja known as The Hand via Elektra. After that he was just a student of martial arts in general, and he DEFINITELY would have taken a liking to Wing Chun / Tai Chi type stuff for all the sensitivity training. The stunt choreographers also designed the Daredevil bits while completely focused on the fact that he is blind and altered how he fought accordingly. There's actually a GREAT vid out there on it that you should review when ya get a chance.
You wanted him to punch the meat in the back so he didn't get caught.
Nobody bad mouths Rocky!
the other thing to remember about Rocky, is that he was known for simply being tough "it's about how much you can take and keep moving forward"
That's because everything in Boxing is backwards. They are trained to lean into the punches, not dodge them!
Deardevil does know a few martial arts in the comics however , In the show I believe it's boxing , judo , Bjj and karate , with some techniques from his sensei .
The Quicksilver kick you were complimenting was downright awful in my estimation. He kicked the bag and then his leg dropped vertically downward. He thrusted at it. The other guy was completely correct. If you waste energy trying to move the bag you will not cause any internal shockwave that causes damage. Notice the second guy instructing him on how kick. His leg stayed in line with the direction of the impact even after the force dissipated. That’s the way to kick. Or really, that’s the way to do any strike intended to create concussive internal damage. There are thrusting techniques too, but they usually involve the heel, and the biggest hazard to being hit by a thrusting strike is what troublesome things you might running into behind you.
Daredevil fights like he calls it “fisty cuffs.”
Just remembering, in never back down scene for example. it makes sense the lack of skill in form and in throwing punches. The guy was just a street brawler with a couple of weeks/mounths training.
alex pereira puches exactly how seths was saying it is wrong
I always thought the same thing! Every time I see actors do it on screen.
Stallone hurt his hands in that meat punching scene.
"Never Back Down" is showing that the kid can't punch at all, so it's hard to say it's bad when it's meant to be bad. Unlike "Daredevil" which is meant to show off his amazing skill, which he does not have.
Cap is trying to not blow up the bags. The only time he moves his feet, the bag goes flying. But, that 1-2 combo is pretty bad...
everything else I agree with
It’s not the actors fault. It’s the trainers who trained them.
Captain America was a fucking nerd, he uses his super physical abilities instinctively.
He gets a pass.
No can defense
No one can withstands my powder
no form nessary
Makes me less prodicable
thoughts on super-strength and "proper" punching:
-if you push off your back foot with super strength, wouldn't that launch you forward/airborne?
-if cap'n throws a serious punch, it would destroy a bag, right? So it wouldn't it also _kill a man?_ so he has to practice "bad" ones so he can hit without killing people by accident
he's gotta practice and work to be able to have that 'light touch' _even when he's upset_
Jack Dempsey was well known for using vertical fists.
There's different styles,for different reasons. And you gave daredevil worst then 911? Wow...
I was a semi pro boxer till father time caught up. Anytime you hit a heavy bag . It is never the same as a fight.
EVER ! Its more to work up a sweat and develop power.
How about a video showing how to properly work the heavy bag.
Yooooo!!!! Hinomaru Sumo! It’s a anime about sumo. Absolutely a must watch
When people hit a heavy bag I feel like a lot of times their goal is simply to make it move as much as it can, rather than just using good technique.
Didn’t even realize this was the second channel until Seth popped up from the corner. I subscribed!
As a long time fan, I cannot possibly recommend this enough, you need to check out the Killer Bean Jet Bean fight.
Everyone knows that you never punch the meat in the first room, they always keep the good stuff in the back.
This seems like an odd video to me. I can see being critical watching actual trained fighters demonstrating bad form. That would make sense. But criticizing actors, just seems strange to me. Not to mention, many of these people who we see in this video are not playing the part of a trained boxer or MMA fighter. Why would you expect that a firefighter would have some flawless form on the heavy bag? Or hell, even a superhero. Superheroes usually rely on their supernatural speed and strength or they count on their tech, like Ironman. They are not trained fighters either....at least most of them aren't.
BTW, that was one of the things that Rocky could do in the movie, which was switch stances.
Also, the Never Back Down movie.....the whole point of that scene was to show what he looked like when he was just starting out. He was supposed to look inexperienced.
It's also strange that this guy didn't show any footage of himself on the heavy bag, showing proper form and technique.
The girl that was doing the hammer arms 7:25 that was Sean Strickland MMA style where he puts his hand on his chin then over his body, but he doesn't attack how she attacks, with the hammer fists and leaving openings, just a bit weird
2 movies to look into.
Old boy training scene
The Raid 2 cell wall punches.
RRR punch bag scene best Indian film scene Netflix
Daredevil is my favorite superhero show ever but that scene always killed me. He was raised by a boxer too!! Cmon Matt. How did the choreographers let that rock because otherwise all the fights are great in that show.
In shaolin we were also taught to mostly through vertical punches. Turning the punch is bad for street fighting. Which what he does, because its a bit more telegraphed, and its easier to have your arm broken.
The problem I have with the scene from Never Back Down is the entire idea of moving the bag in the first place. You're not trying to move the bag, you're trying to punch a hole in the thing.
As a combat veteran, I can say without a doubt that Cap SHOULD know how to throw a good punch and unarmed combat training has been MANDATORY for all service members in basic training for a long time.
Also, as someone who's conpleted several spec ops coarses, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have additional advanced combat training considering the types of missions they sent him on.
Hell, even the most basic SERE course, SV-80B had some extra combat training if I remember correctly.