I'm seeing a lot of the same ideas repeated. Seems people have misunderstood the intention. The important distinction is that we need to lower the skill floor. We can do that while keeping the ceiling high. There is still lots of room to adjust things for that purpose. They talked about several methods to do this in the last SC Live: give boost more of a ramp as opposed to a harsh toggle, adjust top SCM based on thruster power allocation, improved rotation based on thruster allocation, slow down projectiles, etc. The main point of my video, which is not addressed here, is that there is still SO MUCH that we haven't seen, it's unrealistic to expect big changes or assume that the system is well understood until we have a more complete picture.
I agree that the entry skill needs to be reduced for dogfighting, however, I do not see how the Master Modes speed limit can achieve that. Enforcing a speed limit can only change things for others, it can not change things for you if you already apply the speed limit. By forcing everyone else to apply the speed limit a beginner might not get defeated as often, however that is not helping beginners get better, that is pulling everyone else down to a beginner level. Of course, if the skill ceiling is not reduced to beginner level, but reduced to some higher level, e..g. to the current average level, then beginners will still continue to be defeated as before. The core problem remains: As long as dogfighting is skill based, better players will defeat poorer players (I don't see what else it could mean?). If we want to add more randomness to who wins a fight, if we want a poorer player to defeat a better player by pure luck more often, then there are much less invasive ways to achieve that. Something like critical hits can give beginners a random chance to win every now and then. The real problem with reducing the skill ceiling is that the highly skilled players need that unlimited skill ceiling to discover new ways of defeating each other. The core game play for highly skilled players isn't flying around and shooting beginners (they hardly ever do that), the core game play for good players is fighting each other and getting better. For that to be possible, the skill ceiling needs to be unlimited. I don't see how other adjustments, like power allocation, projectile speed and the many other things being experimented on can add to the argument: They will either sum up to the skill ceiling being reduced to the level of beginners, or they will not. Those adjustments can certainly be valuable for skilled pilots as well, but they can not compare to the possibilities a good and inventive pilot can find in having access to a full degree of freedom. If we want Star Citizen to continue to be a skill based game, the whole approach of enforcing speed limits is flawed to begin with. Focus should be on helping beginners improve, not on limiting the ability of the skilled players.
The highest level of pvp players (and yes I will specifically point out Avenger One) need to come off their high horse and realize that most of their "fun" was using and abusing a broken system. Right now a quick tricord at the correct time and you can suddenly be 4 KM away from your opponent and simply escape, recharge shields, spread out the fight and suddenly you are "masterfully" 1v6 beating the enemies (more like 1v6 but only 1v1 during long enough sections of the fight to whittle them down). The current model breaks down and desyncs quickly when speeds hit 1.2m/s and thus the smaller fighters always had an advantage. These fighters were also pulling 22gs to suddenly change directions so between all of that the game simply couldnt keep up. I recently had an impromptu fight between my org (Vanguard) and River Grit & friends (PAX Mortis) after an Idris wargame event and over the course of 45 minutes of some high level pilots shooting at each other only about 4 or 5 ships out of 20 exploded. The fight itself drifted nearly 1000km from the "starting" location and any time you took a few seconds to focus and chase a target trying to disengage for shields or whatnot, you were suddenly 30km-40km away from your main team and hopefully alone. Some times I ended up drifting after a target and ended up between 4 or 5 pax members, who are extremely good at fighting, but a couple tricords while spooling quantum and I was away. Then to get back to fights I was spooling up quantum drives and jumping. Thats not fun. Thats not good gameplay. Most of the fights were at pixel shot range so it was a game of shoot the hud indications as any time you closed distance the enemy pilots could easily create distance again. My teammates were nearby, and by that I mean anywhere between 500m to 5km during a "close in" dogfight. Master modes is needed, CIG needs to find a way to make it not feel TOO much like you hit a rock wall when you max out speed in a second or two while in SCM. I like that MM emphasizes roles for certain craft and thus gives them glaring weaknesses, thus the skill is in learning when your ship is in an advantageous situation or when it needs to disengage. Very few ships should be able to enter ANY combat situation and excel 100% without compromise, as right now if you choose arrow as a skilled pilot you can win any situation in live flight model. Arrow should be a choice when you need to take down opposing light fighters, bombers, nuisance ships and taken in swarms to challenge larger things, it shouldnt be a single pilot who knows that sitting at 700+ meters effectively allows him to dodge all laser fire from a hammerhead. I think MM is on the right track, it feels a little boring in 1v1 situations but I hope that changes somehow, plus we need to see it with engineering, armor, weapon rebalance, tuning of components and tweaking of individual flight values on ships to make them all feel somehow unique.
Well thoughtout video. I commented on another content creators video replying to another person who couldn't understand why they are bringing SQ42 to the PU. I mean if alot of resources went over there for the years, why not use what works? Well done sir. I'm excited for the future. If it takes longer? Okay whatever, I can i play other games. It's so easy to hate on devs but I appreciate the fun videos i've posted for sure. Yes they have fumble and messed up for years the community can be brutal.
Thanks for the support. The further I get in my own engineering career, the more sympathetic I am to things taking longer than expected and processes not being well understood.
Great video. The best explanation I have heard yet. From what I understand, they will give ships without quantum drives a "limited" quantum drive. My own speculation is they will have the ability to quantum planetside and only be able to quantum between POIs on the planet they are on or orbit around. The furthest we can hope for is that they can quantum within a planetary system. I know this was recently announced within the last month or two.
@@OddJobEntertainment I want to say it was a past ISC. I remember it being something like “ We are looking into giving small ships, a limited quantum drive”. Nothing set in stone, just said they were thinking about it.
This game for me even though i curently cant play it. So this is an outsiders point of view but, most of the stuff i fell about star citiz3n is that its a space ship flying simulator in its current form. And somewhat of a space life simulatior. And it seems to me that this "master mode" is a more focused flying combat simulator. While "squadron 42" seems more like a ground pvp and in low atmospheric pvp system and wlso a way for the devs to balance weapons and focus on the reports from the comunity. While star citizen at the end of the day is a butiful space game.
we need armor in-game. That will be the balancer and the thing that will give edge on larger ships. tiny size 1 laser shouldn't be able to punch wholes in bigger ships. yes with time, an armor plate could become sufficiently damaged so that it will fail, but it must take a LOT of time.
I figure keep the armor simple enough to where if you have enough of it, smaller fighters and guns have zero effect on the armor. Make it so they can take down weak points though > engines, turrets, shield emitters, thrusters. Make it risky, make it take a little time and accuracy but that's how fighters can contribute to a larger ship fight once they have knocked out any bombers / opposing fighters
We're probably waiting on maelstrom for that. As is the Reclaimer structural salvage - if they ever do decide to bring back the old ship munching plans.
As someone who doesn’t have time to put into intentional “training” and takes breaks from SC I’m hopeful that MM will make the game easier to pick up and play. I was encouraged by CIG committing to reworking racetracks for the new speeds!
Yeah, there are too many missing combat/flight model systems (new atmo) and narrow scope of testing to make a final judgement. It's silly to think 3.23 MM is the final balance tied to SQ42 like some say. While I agree you don't want to make the experiences too different between SQ42 and SC I think it's inevitable if not necessary to do so. A solo hero game fighting formulated AI in controlled scenarios by the client vs Multiplayer netcode delay and unpredictable player actions are different animals. Trying to make a one size fits all solution can risk suffering the JOAT's curse and become underwhelming at both pleasing no one. The lore allows a perfect explanation: Miliary gets premium material components and proprietary tuning software civilians don't shaped by military combat doctrines and training approaches refined over decades. Civilians can still tune and overclock and sometimes edge out the mil version but not as durable and reliable or much more expensive to maintain. As for Snubs there is a fix to the nav mode problem. They are a seat bolted to large engines and a couple guns. They should get the very top SCM speeds and acceleration like interceptor plus the turning agility of the light fighter archetype with the largest boost capacity allowing them to engage and disengage similar to what we have now. They are balanced in the fact they already have limited firepower and fuel range plus they die fast. I think this would allow the duelists, racers, and stunt flyers to still have their faster fun without dominating the rest of the game with their meta as we have today. Snubs are still viable as the swarm of bees especially with pro pilots. The other brands should have a snub eventually so you can have all the manufacturer characters and nuances you want.
Glad you think so. I just want to clarify that we're getting a deeper combat system by lowering the barrier to entry. I think at the end we'll still have a nice high ceiling.
@@OddJobEntertainment Yea I was not in disagreement with you on that part. But It will be a part of .. built into us to want to be better then just the entry level where everyone will seem good. Were all going to want to be pushed harder eventually. In every aspect of the game and not just dogfighting. But as long as dogfighting mode and skills stay within the realm of dogfighting then I think the ace pilots will stay in their lane. I hope. This is no longer going to be a dps race. I think there will be a lot of acquisition in the game if we paly our cards right. More then in Eve Online. Hell we will probably have even better tacticians then we have ever had then in Eve Online. If master modes proves itself worthy.
Mostly disagree. Here's the thing. If you create an experience in a game, say for 10 years, then the players that play it play it because they like the game. Now you want to change the game to something totally different, and not what was promised from the beginning. The idea that combat ceiling is going fall 90% and new players are going to flock to the game is delusional. If this is the direction they wanted to go, they should have it years ago. All those years of free flight where players trying the game played and the ones that didn't like the difficulty will (mostly) NEVER EVER come back. I have friends that personally will never try it again. And look to be clear, I'm not saying the skill ceiling isn't to high, it is (I'd rate myself a slightly better than average pilot). But to do such a radical change is only going to alienate a decent portion of the player base. Not just the 10% of uber pilots at the top. It reminds me of what Sony did with Star Wars Galaxies and NGE. The reason it didn't work because the people that were playing pre-NGE were playing because they liked it, even with it's flaws. The people that didn't like it, weren't going to come back because they change the rules. So you change the rules an the people you have leave and it's hard to get people to come back and try the new rules, because they've moved on. It's easier to keep a customer than it is to attract a new one. Now, having said that, slowing combat, is a good idea, but to go from 1000-1300 to 175-225 is insane. The newebs that come and play MM and enjoy it because it's easy will soon tire of it. While I'm not a fan of the ego maniac that is Avenger One, I think he's mostly right. There are combinations of things we can do to bring the skill ceiling lower while maintaining enough to give players who enjoy combat room to create some space between them and beginners. It's like any niche in the game, players who dedicate themselves to a niche are going to want to they time the dedicate to pay off in the form of being better at their chosen field than someone whose been playing for a month. But whatever your chosen field in the game, medic, cargo, mining, whatever, do you want all of these prospective careers to be so dumbed down everyone can do it? If yes....Really?
I would argue that with the many iterations and attempts to get there, this has always been the intended combat. It's just that now some of the exploits are gone, and they've worked out a way to enforce the vision.
I still think there's way too many 7nknowns to throw MM out and speeds do need to come down. It's not about lowering the ceiling, it's about lowering the floor.
Yeah sorry, but I'd personally like to be able to be on my Connie and use my Merlin for planetary travel without having to literally crawl speed places.
"If it is too difficult"? Who decides that? What if it is too easy??? Certainly, Being a pilot "Ace" straight out of the box for that "good feeling" is surely not it. When I play a game the first time over I want to learn. I want to improve my skills. So, I practice to get better and maximize the level I can get to. Because its worth while. - You, in contrast, depart from the average player that is "competent in minimum time". And then what? Following your logic, why should I play if i hit the ceiling right there? - What about maximum time? Or even just average time? Dumb down skill levels too much and people will find it stale, boring and they will leave the game anyway. You'll get a bunch of newbies that will remain noobs (and yes, i can prove this easily by looking at so many other MOOs that went that way; you get flocks of incompetents at top tiers, while the actual people who kept the game alive just start leaving - just because playing the game is actually not worth while... a straw fire.
Doesn’t his bell graph vs lopsided graph near the beginning answer this? Wanting a player to quickly get to basic average competency in a game is pretty reasonable. The gold standard for most competitive games I’ve seen is ‘easy to learn hard to master’. Right now we have ‘hard to learn and a time sink to master.’ Players who invest time and energy to focusing on learning will still outclass those who don’t. MM is just making it so those with less free time and the less competitive among us can have fun and do basic maneuvers without needing hours and hours of practice and coaching.
@@alttaabGraphs do not depict actual gameplay or any particularities. And that particular graph is not relatable to Star Citizen (or games whatsoever). So no, it does not. The same goes for cobbled together terms like "basic average". There is no such thing. Its either basic or average. There just is no "time sink to master" in Master Modes (which is ironic, considering the name they chose - but they did the same when they went to improve so called "High Speed Combat". Yup, they did so by taking high speed out of combat). It is all basic, not even average and skill masterhood nowhere in sight even with time. If "hours and hours of practice" already bother you, then any game should be a challenge: If you want a game that is nothing remarkable and one that you can play on the side while you are doing something else at your desk, then why have we been waiting 12 years and counting for this particular one? (rhetorical) - There is a ton of casual games out there that will do a better job and possibly draw in more players per hours of gameplay consumed. I think we can agree SC we aren't here to see a "basic average" coming out that assembly line door...
the big problem right now is master modes is entering the game with almost no other supporting gameplay that may fill it out --- weapon selection, engineering, resource network, tuning, armor, differences in ships. The current flight model is "deep" because its just learning how the game is broken with 22.5 g movements and 1.2km/s movement where desync and strangeness is as much a shield to a light fighter than anything. I would suggest you watch Vergil's videos about the current level of thinking he is using in MM and that seems so far the mastery is in reading a fight and learning where he can best be to contribute --- whether or not he puts a lot of effort into getting a kill or just delaying until teammates can arrive. Does he stay or leave a fight? Reading the radar he sees when he is heavily outnumbered and pre-plans his nav mode use. Even in the crappy tier 0 version of MM with a limited number of ships and weapon selections he is finding depth and I think the ceiling is different, a bit lower for now yes, but also without the full extent of what the actual SC combat gameplay will try to be later. I will agree with most that 1v1s are not in a great place right now with MM. Dont forget that combat is PART of the game not the ENTIRE game. If we lose 50 sweatlord pvpers because the "maximum depth" (and truthfully game breaking) live model is gone but we retain 500 others, its a win for Star Citizen. When I look at fleets on inforunners Discord, so MANY people have industrial focus ships and a small helping of small combat fighters, if any at all. When CIG asked what people wanted to do, majority of the answers were Exploration. Combat is only part of the whole puzzle
Competent does not mean good. With minimal time and practice, you should be able to play the game. To get good at the game will still require plenty of time and now includes skills that weren't part of the equation before.
You are basing your stance on the idea that Master Modes makes the game easier for beginners rather than pulling down the skill of the good players. That is not the case and it is easily provable: When it comes to speed, all Master Modes does is enforce the speed limiter setting. You can play Master Modes in the PU today; just set your speed limiter to SCM and leave it there. If you want to, you may toggle the speed limiter off when you boost, but as soon as you have completed the boost, you have to turn on your speed limiter again. As you can see, the game can already be played that way and if it makes it easier for beginners they can play that way immediately. The real difference is that Master Modes forces it on to everyone. The main effect is that players that are highly skilled are no longer able to let that skill unfold. Now you could say that pulling down the best players to the level of average players will make things easier for average players but that is also a mistake: The best players generally don't fight average players because there is nothing to learn from it. The best players search for new good opponents, because those are the only opponents that can let them learn something new and grow. It is just like Chess, Grand Masters don't play low level players unless they get paid or as charity. There is nothing to gain, there is nothing to learn from playing a low level player. Obviously, the existence of Grand Masters doesn't make chess harder to play for beginners. So, all that Master Modes will have as effect, all that Master Modes *can* have as effect, is pull down the best players to average level. No one likes to be where they are not wanted, so they will leave. After that Master Modes will prevent anyone from ever learning what they knew.
I've actually been taking on PVE bounties with exactly the limitations you're describing. Part of the problem is that so long as your opponent has access to the wider speed range, you're at a severe disadvantage, even against PVE targets. So while it does make the flight easier for a new player, it doesn't actually lower the skill floor. You can't have different rules for different castes of players. The important distinction is that we need to lower the skill floor. We can do that while keeping the ceiling high. There is still lots of room to adjust things for that purpose. They talked about several methods to do this in the last SC Live: give boost more of a ramp as opposed to a harsh toggle, adjust top SCM based on thruster power allocation, improved rotation based on thruster allocation, slow down projectiles, etc. The main point of my video, which is not addressed here, is that there is still SO MUCH that we haven't seen, it's unrealistic to expect big changes or assume that the system is well understood until we have a more complete picture. The analogy of chess is also flawed. "PVE players" get attacked all the time by PVP players simply because they can. Reputation and other such systems should help but will not totally eliminate the problem. It's also highly unreasonable to expect that a Prospector pilot always have an escort. So that player needs to have an option to either flee or at the very least present a challenge in combat.
@@OddJobEntertainment I am Evocati, so I have been playing Master Modes for half a year by now. What you say may be correct, but it still doesn't change the fact that the Master Modes speed limit doesn't do anything that we can't already do in game, so it can *impossibly* make things easier for beginners. All Master Modes can logically do is remove the space for the best players to be very good, it can not make it easier for beginners. What you really need is a way to meet players at your own level so that you can have a reasonable challenge while you learn. Reducing the top level down to beginner level can only destroy dogfighting as a game play loop to pursue because after a short while there will be nothing left to learn. At that point dogfighting will become boring to the best players and they will leave, instead of being a source of endless learning and growth, like how Chess is, and how dogfighting in SC is now. Speaking of which, when was the last time you got attacked by an Arena Commander Ace? I can answer that: Never. The top dogfighters don't fight average players for the same reason Chess Grand Masters don't fight average players, unless for pay or charity: They have nothing to learn from them. The best players spend their time trying to find opponents at their own level so they can learn from them, they never attack beginners. So all Master Modes does is destroy the game for those best dogfighters, removing any inspiration to excel that they provide because we drag down the best players to the level of mediocrity. On top of that, we do so for perceived fear, a fear of something that never actually happens.
Is that a fact though? Or just a hunch? You stated it as fact, even though MM isn't out yet. Even after the first release there will be loads of tweaking and nothing will be off the table... so it's a work in progress. Are you evocati? If so - how does the current MM iteration make it boring?
Yes we do need a system like master mode. But their implementation for flight combat is absolute garbage! All they've done is turn flight combat into a really slow and boring crappy arcade game that takes zero skill to play. They have literally cut flight speeds by over 3/4 making a vanguard feel like you're flying a hammerhead in combat. That is not fun!! They've basically made fighters pointless at 250 SEM. All they're doing is alienating the long term backer base to dumb down the flight system so much because so many new people trying the game and don't want to actually take the time and effort to learn to fly properly. This is supposed to be a space simulator MMO, not a cheesy arcade game.. If it stays like this, I see a massive Gray market sale of my account in the future.. Because this is not how combat was promised to us when I back this project a long time ago..
I don't think it's finished. I'd suggest you watch the SCL. They go on about a lot of possible tweaks. They're just as aware as we are that duels are not good.
@@OddJobEntertainment I watch it.. I watch In side Star and Star Live every week at my desk during lunch..lol I know that they know it's bad.. The prob is speed! 250SEM is just too slow.. Everyone told them from the start that 250 is to slow and boring, It's like taking a Ferrari, (Vanguard Fighter) and tuning it to feel like Toyota Corolla.. They spent the past year pushing so hard and tunning for 250 SEM.. Flight combat should be up to 7 or 800 SEM to be fun.. But that would require them to start from scratch, and I don't think that they will do that.. They Efed up!
I'm seeing a lot of the same ideas repeated. Seems people have misunderstood the intention.
The important distinction is that we need to lower the skill floor. We can do that while keeping the ceiling high. There is still lots of room to adjust things for that purpose. They talked about several methods to do this in the last SC Live: give boost more of a ramp as opposed to a harsh toggle, adjust top SCM based on thruster power allocation, improved rotation based on thruster allocation, slow down projectiles, etc. The main point of my video, which is not addressed here, is that there is still SO MUCH that we haven't seen, it's unrealistic to expect big changes or assume that the system is well understood until we have a more complete picture.
I agree that the entry skill needs to be reduced for dogfighting, however, I do not see how the Master Modes speed limit can achieve that. Enforcing a speed limit can only change things for others, it can not change things for you if you already apply the speed limit. By forcing everyone else to apply the speed limit a beginner might not get defeated as often, however that is not helping beginners get better, that is pulling everyone else down to a beginner level. Of course, if the skill ceiling is not reduced to beginner level, but reduced to some higher level, e..g. to the current average level, then beginners will still continue to be defeated as before. The core problem remains: As long as dogfighting is skill based, better players will defeat poorer players (I don't see what else it could mean?). If we want to add more randomness to who wins a fight, if we want a poorer player to defeat a better player by pure luck more often, then there are much less invasive ways to achieve that. Something like critical hits can give beginners a random chance to win every now and then. The real problem with reducing the skill ceiling is that the highly skilled players need that unlimited skill ceiling to discover new ways of defeating each other. The core game play for highly skilled players isn't flying around and shooting beginners (they hardly ever do that), the core game play for good players is fighting each other and getting better. For that to be possible, the skill ceiling needs to be unlimited. I don't see how other adjustments, like power allocation, projectile speed and the many other things being experimented on can add to the argument: They will either sum up to the skill ceiling being reduced to the level of beginners, or they will not. Those adjustments can certainly be valuable for skilled pilots as well, but they can not compare to the possibilities a good and inventive pilot can find in having access to a full degree of freedom.
If we want Star Citizen to continue to be a skill based game, the whole approach of enforcing speed limits is flawed to begin with. Focus should be on helping beginners improve, not on limiting the ability of the skilled players.
8:07 You get it. 🙏
I got you. On this channel we do balanced critique and open discussion.
The highest level of pvp players (and yes I will specifically point out Avenger One) need to come off their high horse and realize that most of their "fun" was using and abusing a broken system. Right now a quick tricord at the correct time and you can suddenly be 4 KM away from your opponent and simply escape, recharge shields, spread out the fight and suddenly you are "masterfully" 1v6 beating the enemies (more like 1v6 but only 1v1 during long enough sections of the fight to whittle them down).
The current model breaks down and desyncs quickly when speeds hit 1.2m/s and thus the smaller fighters always had an advantage. These fighters were also pulling 22gs to suddenly change directions so between all of that the game simply couldnt keep up.
I recently had an impromptu fight between my org (Vanguard) and River Grit & friends (PAX Mortis) after an Idris wargame event and over the course of 45 minutes of some high level pilots shooting at each other only about 4 or 5 ships out of 20 exploded. The fight itself drifted nearly 1000km from the "starting" location and any time you took a few seconds to focus and chase a target trying to disengage for shields or whatnot, you were suddenly 30km-40km away from your main team and hopefully alone. Some times I ended up drifting after a target and ended up between 4 or 5 pax members, who are extremely good at fighting, but a couple tricords while spooling quantum and I was away. Then to get back to fights I was spooling up quantum drives and jumping.
Thats not fun. Thats not good gameplay. Most of the fights were at pixel shot range so it was a game of shoot the hud indications as any time you closed distance the enemy pilots could easily create distance again. My teammates were nearby, and by that I mean anywhere between 500m to 5km during a "close in" dogfight.
Master modes is needed, CIG needs to find a way to make it not feel TOO much like you hit a rock wall when you max out speed in a second or two while in SCM. I like that MM emphasizes roles for certain craft and thus gives them glaring weaknesses, thus the skill is in learning when your ship is in an advantageous situation or when it needs to disengage. Very few ships should be able to enter ANY combat situation and excel 100% without compromise, as right now if you choose arrow as a skilled pilot you can win any situation in live flight model. Arrow should be a choice when you need to take down opposing light fighters, bombers, nuisance ships and taken in swarms to challenge larger things, it shouldnt be a single pilot who knows that sitting at 700+ meters effectively allows him to dodge all laser fire from a hammerhead.
I think MM is on the right track, it feels a little boring in 1v1 situations but I hope that changes somehow, plus we need to see it with engineering, armor, weapon rebalance, tuning of components and tweaking of individual flight values on ships to make them all feel somehow unique.
I liked the last SCL. I think there's a lot of variables that still need tweaking and there's some definite paths forward.
Well thoughtout video. I commented on another content creators video replying to another person who couldn't understand why they are bringing SQ42 to the PU. I mean if alot of resources went over there for the years, why not use what works? Well done sir. I'm excited for the future. If it takes longer? Okay whatever, I can i play other games. It's so easy to hate on devs but I appreciate the fun videos i've posted for sure. Yes they have fumble and messed up for years the community can be brutal.
Thanks for the support. The further I get in my own engineering career, the more sympathetic I am to things taking longer than expected and processes not being well understood.
Great video. The best explanation I have heard yet. From what I understand, they will give ships without quantum drives a "limited" quantum drive. My own speculation is they will have the ability to quantum planetside and only be able to quantum between POIs on the planet they are on or orbit around. The furthest we can hope for is that they can quantum within a planetary system. I know this was recently announced within the last month or two.
So far as I know, this is one of a few options discussed. But I haven't heard concretely they had decided on this. Do you know where I'd find it?
@@OddJobEntertainment I want to say it was a past ISC. I remember it being something like “ We are looking into giving small ships, a limited quantum drive”. Nothing set in stone, just said they were thinking about it.
Nice, Gladiī 🙌
Gotta say it until it sticks. Same with Idrisi.
This game for me even though i curently cant play it. So this is an outsiders point of view but, most of the stuff i fell about star citiz3n is that its a space ship flying simulator in its current form. And somewhat of a space life simulatior. And it seems to me that this "master mode" is a more focused flying combat simulator. While "squadron 42" seems more like a ground pvp and in low atmospheric pvp system and wlso a way for the devs to balance weapons and focus on the reports from the comunity. While star citizen at the end of the day is a butiful space game.
we need armor in-game. That will be the balancer and the thing that will give edge on larger ships. tiny size 1 laser shouldn't be able to punch wholes in bigger ships. yes with time, an armor plate could become sufficiently damaged so that it will fail, but it must take a LOT of time.
I figure keep the armor simple enough to where if you have enough of it, smaller fighters and guns have zero effect on the armor. Make it so they can take down weak points though > engines, turrets, shield emitters, thrusters.
Make it risky, make it take a little time and accuracy but that's how fighters can contribute to a larger ship fight once they have knocked out any bombers / opposing fighters
Again, agree.
We're probably waiting on maelstrom for that. As is the Reclaimer structural salvage - if they ever do decide to bring back the old ship munching plans.
As someone who doesn’t have time to put into intentional “training” and takes breaks from SC I’m hopeful that MM will make the game easier to pick up and play. I was encouraged by CIG committing to reworking racetracks for the new speeds!
SCL was very encouraging.
Great video!
I appreciate that. These take a bit of work and I'm always getting better. But comments like this are extremely validating.
Yeah, there are too many missing combat/flight model systems (new atmo) and narrow scope of testing to make a final judgement. It's silly to think 3.23 MM is the final balance tied to SQ42 like some say. While I agree you don't want to make the experiences too different between SQ42 and SC I think it's inevitable if not necessary to do so. A solo hero game fighting formulated AI in controlled scenarios by the client vs Multiplayer netcode delay and unpredictable player actions are different animals. Trying to make a one size fits all solution can risk suffering the JOAT's curse and become underwhelming at both pleasing no one. The lore allows a perfect explanation: Miliary gets premium material components and proprietary tuning software civilians don't shaped by military combat doctrines and training approaches refined over decades. Civilians can still tune and overclock and sometimes edge out the mil version but not as durable and reliable or much more expensive to maintain.
As for Snubs there is a fix to the nav mode problem. They are a seat bolted to large engines and a couple guns. They should get the very top SCM speeds and acceleration like interceptor plus the turning agility of the light fighter archetype with the largest boost capacity allowing them to engage and disengage similar to what we have now. They are balanced in the fact they already have limited firepower and fuel range plus they die fast. I think this would allow the duelists, racers, and stunt flyers to still have their faster fun without dominating the rest of the game with their meta as we have today. Snubs are still viable as the swarm of bees especially with pro pilots. The other brands should have a snub eventually so you can have all the manufacturer characters and nuances you want.
I agree with all your points here. We need to keep the game alive through an easier combat system.
Glad you think so. I just want to clarify that we're getting a deeper combat system by lowering the barrier to entry. I think at the end we'll still have a nice high ceiling.
@@OddJobEntertainment Yea I was not in disagreement with you on that part. But It will be a part of .. built into us to want to be better then just the entry level where everyone will seem good. Were all going to want to be pushed harder eventually.
In every aspect of the game and not just dogfighting.
But as long as dogfighting mode and skills stay within the realm of dogfighting then I think the ace pilots will stay in their lane. I hope.
This is no longer going to be a dps race. I think there will be a lot of acquisition in the game if we paly our cards right. More then in Eve Online. Hell we will probably have even better tacticians then we have ever had then in Eve Online. If master modes proves itself worthy.
Mostly disagree.
Here's the thing. If you create an experience in a game, say for 10 years, then the players that play it play it because they like the game.
Now you want to change the game to something totally different, and not what was promised from the beginning. The idea that combat ceiling is going fall 90% and new players are going to flock to the game is delusional. If this is the direction they wanted to go, they should have it years ago. All those years of free flight where players trying the game played and the ones that didn't like the difficulty will (mostly) NEVER EVER come back. I have friends that personally will never try it again. And look to be clear, I'm not saying the skill ceiling isn't to high, it is (I'd rate myself a slightly better than average pilot). But to do such a radical change is only going to alienate a decent portion of the player base. Not just the 10% of uber pilots at the top.
It reminds me of what Sony did with Star Wars Galaxies and NGE. The reason it didn't work because the people that were playing pre-NGE were playing because they liked it, even with it's flaws. The people that didn't like it, weren't going to come back because they change the rules. So you change the rules an the people you have leave and it's hard to get people to come back and try the new rules, because they've moved on.
It's easier to keep a customer than it is to attract a new one.
Now, having said that, slowing combat, is a good idea, but to go from 1000-1300 to 175-225 is insane. The newebs that come and play MM and enjoy it because it's easy will soon tire of it.
While I'm not a fan of the ego maniac that is Avenger One, I think he's mostly right. There are combinations of things we can do to bring the skill ceiling lower while maintaining enough to give players who enjoy combat room to create some space between them and beginners. It's like any niche in the game, players who dedicate themselves to a niche are going to want to they time the dedicate to pay off in the form of being better at their chosen field than someone whose been playing for a month. But whatever your chosen field in the game, medic, cargo, mining, whatever, do you want all of these prospective careers to be so dumbed down everyone can do it?
If yes....Really?
I would argue that with the many iterations and attempts to get there, this has always been the intended combat. It's just that now some of the exploits are gone, and they've worked out a way to enforce the vision.
With respect to ending the light fighter meta, the solution is simple. Shorten light fighter weapon ranges forcing light fighters in closer (
I still think there's way too many 7nknowns to throw MM out and speeds do need to come down. It's not about lowering the ceiling, it's about lowering the floor.
@@OddJobEntertainment Agreed. We're discussing the state it's in now. That said, I think it will change a lot between now and where it ends up.
MM turrets are broken if you use lag pips... ugg. - PS - Snubs don't have quantum drives. 😂
I'll have to try the lead PIPs then. If that works better, I'll let the rest of this comment slide. Lol
Yeah sorry, but I'd personally like to be able to be on my Connie and use my Merlin for planetary travel without having to literally crawl speed places.
They're still working on a "solution" for snubs.
@@OddJobEntertainment hoping so!
Fully Agree.
"If it is too difficult"? Who decides that? What if it is too easy??? Certainly, Being a pilot "Ace" straight out of the box for that "good feeling" is surely not it.
When I play a game the first time over I want to learn. I want to improve my skills. So, I practice to get better and maximize the level I can get to. Because its worth while.
- You, in contrast, depart from the average player that is "competent in minimum time". And then what? Following your logic, why should I play if i hit the ceiling right there?
- What about maximum time? Or even just average time? Dumb down skill levels too much and people will find it stale, boring and they will leave the game anyway.
You'll get a bunch of newbies that will remain noobs (and yes, i can prove this easily by looking at so many other MOOs that went that way; you get flocks of incompetents at top tiers, while the actual people who kept the game alive just start leaving - just because playing the game is actually not worth while... a straw fire.
Doesn’t his bell graph vs lopsided graph near the beginning answer this? Wanting a player to quickly get to basic average competency in a game is pretty reasonable.
The gold standard for most competitive games I’ve seen is ‘easy to learn hard to master’. Right now we have ‘hard to learn and a time sink to master.’
Players who invest time and energy to focusing on learning will still outclass those who don’t. MM is just making it so those with less free time and the less competitive among us can have fun and do basic maneuvers without needing hours and hours of practice and coaching.
@@alttaabGraphs do not depict actual gameplay or any particularities. And that particular graph is not relatable to Star Citizen (or games whatsoever). So no, it does not. The same goes for cobbled together terms like "basic average". There is no such thing. Its either basic or average. There just is no "time sink to master" in Master Modes (which is ironic, considering the name they chose - but they did the same when they went to improve so called "High Speed Combat". Yup, they did so by taking high speed out of combat). It is all basic, not even average and skill masterhood nowhere in sight even with time. If "hours and hours of practice" already bother you, then any game should be a challenge: If you want a game that is nothing remarkable and one that you can play on the side while you are doing something else at your desk, then why have we been waiting 12 years and counting for this particular one? (rhetorical) - There is a ton of casual games out there that will do a better job and possibly draw in more players per hours of gameplay consumed. I think we can agree SC we aren't here to see a "basic average" coming out that assembly line door...
the big problem right now is master modes is entering the game with almost no other supporting gameplay that may fill it out --- weapon selection, engineering, resource network, tuning, armor, differences in ships. The current flight model is "deep" because its just learning how the game is broken with 22.5 g movements and 1.2km/s movement where desync and strangeness is as much a shield to a light fighter than anything. I would suggest you watch Vergil's videos about the current level of thinking he is using in MM and that seems so far the mastery is in reading a fight and learning where he can best be to contribute --- whether or not he puts a lot of effort into getting a kill or just delaying until teammates can arrive. Does he stay or leave a fight? Reading the radar he sees when he is heavily outnumbered and pre-plans his nav mode use.
Even in the crappy tier 0 version of MM with a limited number of ships and weapon selections he is finding depth and I think the ceiling is different, a bit lower for now yes, but also without the full extent of what the actual SC combat gameplay will try to be later.
I will agree with most that 1v1s are not in a great place right now with MM.
Dont forget that combat is PART of the game not the ENTIRE game. If we lose 50 sweatlord pvpers because the "maximum depth" (and truthfully game breaking) live model is gone but we retain 500 others, its a win for Star Citizen. When I look at fleets on inforunners Discord, so MANY people have industrial focus ships and a small helping of small combat fighters, if any at all. When CIG asked what people wanted to do, majority of the answers were Exploration.
Combat is only part of the whole puzzle
Competent does not mean good. With minimal time and practice, you should be able to play the game. To get good at the game will still require plenty of time and now includes skills that weren't part of the equation before.
You are basing your stance on the idea that Master Modes makes the game easier for beginners rather than pulling down the skill of the good players. That is not the case and it is easily provable: When it comes to speed, all Master Modes does is enforce the speed limiter setting. You can play Master Modes in the PU today; just set your speed limiter to SCM and leave it there. If you want to, you may toggle the speed limiter off when you boost, but as soon as you have completed the boost, you have to turn on your speed limiter again. As you can see, the game can already be played that way and if it makes it easier for beginners they can play that way immediately. The real difference is that Master Modes forces it on to everyone. The main effect is that players that are highly skilled are no longer able to let that skill unfold. Now you could say that pulling down the best players to the level of average players will make things easier for average players but that is also a mistake: The best players generally don't fight average players because there is nothing to learn from it. The best players search for new good opponents, because those are the only opponents that can let them learn something new and grow. It is just like Chess, Grand Masters don't play low level players unless they get paid or as charity. There is nothing to gain, there is nothing to learn from playing a low level player. Obviously, the existence of Grand Masters doesn't make chess harder to play for beginners. So, all that Master Modes will have as effect, all that Master Modes *can* have as effect, is pull down the best players to average level. No one likes to be where they are not wanted, so they will leave. After that Master Modes will prevent anyone from ever learning what they knew.
I've actually been taking on PVE bounties with exactly the limitations you're describing. Part of the problem is that so long as your opponent has access to the wider speed range, you're at a severe disadvantage, even against PVE targets. So while it does make the flight easier for a new player, it doesn't actually lower the skill floor. You can't have different rules for different castes of players.
The important distinction is that we need to lower the skill floor. We can do that while keeping the ceiling high. There is still lots of room to adjust things for that purpose. They talked about several methods to do this in the last SC Live: give boost more of a ramp as opposed to a harsh toggle, adjust top SCM based on thruster power allocation, improved rotation based on thruster allocation, slow down projectiles, etc. The main point of my video, which is not addressed here, is that there is still SO MUCH that we haven't seen, it's unrealistic to expect big changes or assume that the system is well understood until we have a more complete picture.
The analogy of chess is also flawed. "PVE players" get attacked all the time by PVP players simply because they can. Reputation and other such systems should help but will not totally eliminate the problem. It's also highly unreasonable to expect that a Prospector pilot always have an escort. So that player needs to have an option to either flee or at the very least present a challenge in combat.
@@OddJobEntertainment I am Evocati, so I have been playing Master Modes for half a year by now. What you say may be correct, but it still doesn't change the fact that the Master Modes speed limit doesn't do anything that we can't already do in game, so it can *impossibly* make things easier for beginners. All Master Modes can logically do is remove the space for the best players to be very good, it can not make it easier for beginners. What you really need is a way to meet players at your own level so that you can have a reasonable challenge while you learn. Reducing the top level down to beginner level can only destroy dogfighting as a game play loop to pursue because after a short while there will be nothing left to learn. At that point dogfighting will become boring to the best players and they will leave, instead of being a source of endless learning and growth, like how Chess is, and how dogfighting in SC is now. Speaking of which, when was the last time you got attacked by an Arena Commander Ace? I can answer that: Never. The top dogfighters don't fight average players for the same reason Chess Grand Masters don't fight average players, unless for pay or charity: They have nothing to learn from them. The best players spend their time trying to find opponents at their own level so they can learn from them, they never attack beginners. So all Master Modes does is destroy the game for those best dogfighters, removing any inspiration to excel that they provide because we drag down the best players to the level of mediocrity. On top of that, we do so for perceived fear, a fear of something that never actually happens.
Still don't understand why we have to lose shields in NAV. Weapons fine, though.
I think the big thing is so that you can't just shrug off damage and still have to choose to fight or flee.
Very likely because they don't want you to just switch to NAV when you loose in a fight and fly away like right now
@@OddJobEntertainment 9/10 times you'd be bugging out when your shields are down. Then you splat into some random asteroid in your escape.
Then the shields weren't going to help anyways. The rock always wins.
i disagree. makes the game more boring and have less depth which is never a good thing
Okay, you're allowed to think so.
@@OddJobEntertainment 🤝
Is that a fact though? Or just a hunch? You stated it as fact, even though MM isn't out yet. Even after the first release there will be loads of tweaking and nothing will be off the table... so it's a work in progress. Are you evocati? If so - how does the current MM iteration make it boring?
@@FuriousImp ac
@@FuriousImp + they slowed sown everything and removed options in combat (tricord, corcsrcew etc.)
Yes we do need a system like master mode. But their implementation for flight combat is absolute garbage! All they've done is turn flight combat into a really slow and boring crappy arcade game that takes zero skill to play. They have literally cut flight speeds by over 3/4 making a vanguard feel like you're flying a hammerhead in combat. That is not fun!! They've basically made fighters pointless at 250 SEM. All they're doing is alienating the long term backer base to dumb down the flight system so much because so many new people trying the game and don't want to actually take the time and effort to learn to fly properly. This is supposed to be a space simulator MMO, not a cheesy arcade game.. If it stays like this, I see a massive Gray market sale of my account in the future.. Because this is not how combat was promised to us when I back this project a long time ago..
I don't think it's finished. I'd suggest you watch the SCL. They go on about a lot of possible tweaks. They're just as aware as we are that duels are not good.
@@OddJobEntertainment I watch it.. I watch In side Star and Star Live every week at my desk during lunch..lol
I know that they know it's bad.. The prob is speed! 250SEM is just too slow.. Everyone told them from the start that 250 is to slow and boring, It's like taking a Ferrari, (Vanguard Fighter) and tuning it to feel like Toyota Corolla.. They spent the past year pushing so hard and tunning for 250 SEM.. Flight combat should be up to 7 or 800 SEM to be fun.. But that would require them to start from scratch, and I don't think that they will do that.. They Efed up!