I started with Dragon #58, but lost most in floods in my parent's basement. A few years ago at GenCon I picked up a copy of #58 for sentimental value from a vendor who had a ton of the mags from the 80s and 90s.
It always breaks my heart when I hear from folks who lost their gaming collection (or really, any of their possessions) in a flood. I've heard that story so much, and can't even imagine how awful that would be. Glad you were able to replace at least one issue. Cheers, and thanks for watching and commenting!
I know the feeling. I had to sell most of my game collection in 2008 to keep from losing my house at the time. I was selling things that today would fetch high dollar for near nothing. It was tough times as unemployment was really only enough to pay the mortgage and eat one meal a day. As a way to keep from spending too much on heat, I was living in my tiny basement over the winter. But, what I do still have are good memories with friends. Those stay forever. Griff
Sorry to hear about your loss. When I was in the military and coming back from living overseas the military lost over half of my personal goods etc and the have had my fair share is losing a lot of my gaming content. I started in ‘74/75 and having been a TTRPG player for 50 years and a DM/GM for 48 years. I had to buy replacement copies (at often really high prices) to replace the items I really wanted to bring back to my collection. Wishing you the best ❤.
l'd LOVE to see the First Fantasy Campaign get its own, dedicated video. As in depth as possible, perhaps including comparisons to the Blackmoor supplement. Your content is great, and I appreciate your point of view and the time you take with each subject. Thanks for doing what you do!
I really appreciate you taking the time to comment and write this. Thank you so much for watching! And I will definitely add this to the list of potential future topics. I like your idea of comparing FFC to Blackmoor: Supplement II. Thanks!
@Daddy Rolled a 1, As someone who has long had an interest in the history and historiography of D&D and RPGs more generally, I thoroughly enjoyed this video. I might even go as far as saying it’s my favourite ever piece of UA-cam content. Great job! Will you be at Gen Con this summer? If so, I’ll gladly buy you a drink 😄 🍻
You have no idea how happy I was to see this comment today! I was at the pub for lunch with the guy who did the layout and covers for my Kickstarter supplement, and I had to read to him what you said. Made my day! I am sadly not going to GenCon this year but I do hope to end up at a convention you're at one day to say "hi" and chat. I really appreciate it! Cheers!
All Star games was a great shop. I was happy to hear you patroned them. Dave and Carol were awesome people. I am very proud to have known them. Between them founding their store as well as Games University Convention and organizing many gaming events. Their impact in Southern California is keenly felt, especially after their passing. Being a Southern California gamer for over 40 years. I love hearing about the FLGS in the area. Especially All Star Games, Aero Hobbies, and The Warhouse in Long Beach (aka Balboa Game Company). A place I personally grew up in. Thanks and again for a great video Martin.I would love a video covering several of the early game shops of Southern California and their impact on the hobby in those early days.
I’m also a SoCal (Los Angeles) gamer and would love to know what good game stores are still around. It feels like a lot when out of business once the pandemic. Any recommendations?
@@marksable5753 there are still several game stores around. Although the only one that has a long history that I’m aware of is Brookhurst Hobbies in Garden Grove. They have been around fire at least 40 years if not longer. There is also the Guild House in Bellflower and Side Quest Games in Pomona. These are close to me but they are not the only ones. I also know there is a game store in Ontario and Claremont. Unfortunately since I used to frequent the Warhouse I have not really experienced any of these ships more than once or twice. I hope this helps you out
@christopherkearney6477 and @marksable5753 So funny you mention Brookhurst Hobbies! I just mentioned them in today's video before seeing this comment! I went for the first time around 1995 or so. I remember it being huge. Mark, it really depends on what part of Los Angeles you're in, but as Christopher pointed out, there are few "historic" game stores here any longer. Over by me in Pasadena, we have two shops: Odyssey Games and Gameology. The Gameology one is a "franchise" of a location in Upland (the Inland Empire). Odyssey games has a bit of a history. Back in the 1990s it was originally a place called Game Zone which I frequented somewhat often. It was a bit of a mess - one of those shops where there is no organization, no ventilation, almost no natural lighting, and disinterested employees. But you could find treasures in there if you looked. It was later acquired by a guy named Chuck whose brother owned a game store in San Diego called Game Empire. Chuck "franchised" Game Empire to the Pasadena location of Game Zone, opened up the front window area to provide natural light, added ventilation, got rid of the back video gaming room (where people would rent time by the hour to play games like World of Warcraft and sit in there and eat pizza and snacks, contributing to the odor of the shop), and trained the employees to greet customers, etc. They had a very large used/out-of-print gaming area (I got a boxed set of the 1983 Greyhawk campaign setting, in shrink wrap, for $10). Game Empire then moved locations, sold off a bunch of their used/out-of-print games, and then Chuck died of cancer during the pandemic lockdowns and his wife sold the shop to a former customer, who renamed it Odyssey games. Still a nice shop with tons of open gaming tables and a fairly decent library of used board games, but no real vintage RPG stuff and almost no OSR stuff. It's like 90% WotC and Pathfinder. Let us know what shop(s) you visit!
My dad worked with Dave's brother (I think it was Dave's brother; it might have been Carol's brother) at Unocal in the 1990's. I visited so often that the employees knew me by name and started giving me a 10% discount just because I was a loyal customer. I felt to special when they did that. I'd never had anybody treat me like that before! I specifically recall Jim Pinto working there and later realizing that he and I had gone to college together (I remember seeing him in our "Sound Stage" which was a place to eat on campus, but I didn't really know him them). It was a great shop and I was sad to learn about Carol and Dave and that the shop had closed. Thank you so much for watching and commenting! And I will add the idea on California game shops to the list of potential future topics!
I had a feeling folks might feel this way, which is totally fine. I felt like I have this huge collection of D&D history media, and some folks (especially those newer to the game) might not be aware of it all. I also, to be quite blunt, was sort of running on fumes after putting so much time into my Kickstarter but I still wanted to release a video this week. I am glad you found it useful, and I really appreciate your support of the channel. Cheers!
Thats so cool how you mentioned studies on using roleplaying games for education because I've written a few college essays and a speech on using it in special needs settings and giving students social confidence, so it's nice to see that sort of thing mentioned by one of my favorite youtubers!
Martin would you ever think about putting out a “just for fun” video of maybe your top ten modules. That would be cool to watch. Great channel with so much information.
Thank you so much for saying that, and for watching and commenting! I do like this idea, and I think I'll add it to my list of potential future topics. It would be fun to hear other peoples' thoughts as well. Thanks!
@@daddyrolleda1 As with many "grognards", I have really fond memories of playing in and running B1. There was something so charming about it, and the illustrations! Men in clunky armor poking things with poles, wizards in pointy hats!
Gygsx vs. Arneson reminds me of Stan Lee vs. Jack Kirby (and Steve Ditko). One guy who's taken the lion's share of credit vs. someone who received much less credit and money for their contribution. (I don't know as much about the financial side when it comes to Gygax and Arneson, that's just my vague impression.) Once people learn about this disparity, they often feel like championing the less recognized creator.
A few people have made this comparison, and I don't think it's too far off. I also think in both cases, you have one person who is very comfortable with self-promotion and another who is more shy and soft-spoken, so from a personality standpoint, the public is going to hear from one much more than the other. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1Thank you for the videos! Guilty anecdote: a long time ago I was at a San Diego Comic Con talk by Stan Lee with a Q&A session at the end. As an edgy young man looking to strike a blow for justice, I asked a pointed (though not outright insulting) question about Kirby not getting enough credit. To speak to the public speaking skill you mentioned, Lee's answer was so modest and non-defensive that I immediately felt awful for having been rude to a childhood hero.
We have all had similar experiences, I'm sure. I still beat myself up late at night while trying to fall asleep about conversations I had back when I was in high school!
I'd love to see a LONG video of you just delving on the history of D&D art. The artists, the styles, what was good then and bad now, what's good now and was bad in the past, the mood wtc.
Great video. You covered a lot of material. by the way Ken was at the convention, but left early. wanted him to meet you.. The history of dungeons and dragons book that was done in graphic novel format was interesting. The parts that it covered dealing with Arneson or Minnesota were dubious or incorrect on some points, not you, but author and illustrator. I remember being at Dave’s house when they looked through it and started giggling on some points. They had no reason to question the Gygax side of it because they did not know. And I know they would be mad at me if I let it known. A lot of material that is out there dealing with Minnesota really didn’t approach the guys here in Minnesota at all and there’s quite clearly some assumptions they made. I like the fact that you kept your opinions out of the interpretation of anything. You’re trying to stay open minded and that is appreciated. As you begin to dive more and more into the information, it will become quite clear what happened. And you are correct there was no animosity between and personally. . Beef was breaking the agreement and he is eventual discovery. He was not the only one who was being cut out of the money and credit. And a reminder that Arnesen gave away his money that he did win in court, and he gave it away to a lot of game, developers, and other charities.
The above comments by Kevin. Without Kevin the film Secrets of Blackmoor would not have happened. Kevin was Dave Arneson's web master and is a significant member of the Blackmoor Bunch in the later period.
Martin. As I love TTRPG and especially D&D history I have many of the same books you have. I have even gone so far as to get them on audible. It’s interesting to be working on my World Building or my game planning, etc. and just take it all in. ❤. I love this channel.
That is awesome to hear! If you have any other history books like this that I didn't mention but which you think I should get for my collection, let me know!
Got my usual email update from OSE's publisher Necrotic Gnome and saw your book "ALCHEMY, EXPLOSIONS & INVENTIONS" advertised! Congratulations and good luck!
Love your videos, recently discovered this channel. I would love to see a video where you showed your favorite book and magazine covers. I love seeing those.
I still haven't ordered it because I'm still catching up on some many other things that I've purchased over the past few months. But I'm definitely going to pick it up.
@@daddyrolleda1 Well I had already ordered it, so instead today I grabbed the Eye of the Beholder documentary and the Blackmoor book based on your recommendations.
FYI, there was no bad blood between Chaosium and TSR over Deities and Demigods. Chaosium did not even ask for royalties, they just wanted to be listed and credited. It was the Bloom brothers who refused to list and credit what they saw as the competition. That is why the materials were removed. Go ask Tim Kask. He knows.
Yes, I've chatted about this before a few times, although I didn't specifically call out the Blume brothers. A lot of folks incorrectly think that TSR was "in the wrong" when, as you point out, that was not the case at all.
I might have mentioned this before, but Seth Skorkowski has a video with Sandy Petersen, where the latter presents a near first hand version of the Deities and Demigods kerfuffle.
I do remember this now that you mention it, and I have to search that video up. I do enjoy Seth's channel but I only discovered it within the last ~2 years and there is a LOT of content there I haven't been through. I'm tickled that you used my word "kerfuffle" as it's something that I've said before but it's odd because I don't use it in regular every day talking. But I know I've used it at least twice when recording my videos and not having a more "correct" word on the tip of my tongue. Cheers!
About Chainmail in 1969. I think that’s Jeff Peren’s original rules for Siege of Bodenburg, which was in Panzerfaust. Then a bit later, Gary edits it and they put it into the Domesdaybook 5. Then it turns in to Chainmail.
Yes, Panzerfaust was the first time the Chainmail rules were published. If you want the exact details this info is printed in Playing at the World by Jon Person and in one of Shannon Applecline's Designer's and Dragons books. Yes -- 1969 in Panzerfaust and then later in Domesday book and then later Chainmail is published as a standalone rule book.
Thank you so much! I'm so glad you enjoyed the video, and I also thank you for your well-wishes for my Kickstarter. I've held off doing it for quite a while because I was anxious about the whole thing, but it seems to be going well so far! Thanks again! Cheers!
love the videos and this new series please keep it up and the only request I have is if you see this comment can you do a deeper dive into the war games that led to chainmail? everybody knows D&D comes from chainmail and these other places but nobody ever talks about where chainmail came from.
Done in nauseating detail in Playing at the World by Jon Peterson -- Chapter 3 of Playing at the World is all about Kriegspeil (over 150 years leading up to the creation of D&D!!) -- goes into stuff that helped create Braunstein like Diplomacy. Yes, good topic for a video.
37:38 I'm not really watching the show, you're being listened to in the background while I'm doing stuff 🙂. But you are correct, thank you for turning me on to the we were Wizards podcast, it is really good 😎.
My view is that Arneson was the esoteric soul and Gygax was the analytical mind in the creation of Dungeons and Dragons. Arneson started it at the role playing level but Gygax made it a functional system that could actually be played.
I think very broadly that this is true, but of course there are nuances to everything. Even Dave Wesely (who created Braunstein, from which Blackmoor derived) said that without Dave Arneson, you don't have D&D, but without Gary Gygax, only like 100 people would've ever heard of it.
@@daddyrolleda1 Even that anecdote is misleading. The reality is that both Gary and Dave had a hand at creating D&D. So, to say that Dave was the sole designer and that Gary produced the game IMO is very misleading, Gary was also an experienced game designer and war gamer. I think it's better to say that both Gary and Dave created the game. They are both titans and both deserve the credit for creating a wonderful game!! Yes, and it is good to recognize people and games that came before D&D like Strategos, Diplomacy, Siege of Bodenburg, and Braunstein. I really hate all the people that try to take away from what Dave did or from what Gary did -- the reality is they BOTH created D&D -- and both of their names are listed as the creators on the D&D rules from 1974. Yeah, unfortunately you have the two biased camps, the Minnesota camp and the Lake Geneva camp -- and problem is stuff coming from people's memories is super questionable-- and in the end who really cares about the small details. The who did exactly what (and who came up with which ideas) -- is getting really, really old, especially given the fact that Dave and Gary passed away years ago.
That would be to not understand Arneson. Arneson was very analytical when it came to number crunching for game design. Gary only truly has one design under his belt which was the Custer's last stand game. They put Gary's name on a lot of things, but he was not the creative mind behind them. He did not write Tractics, he did not write Dungeon!, and all he did on chainmail was plagiarize another authors fantasy war game. ok, maybe he did Lankhmar. But during play testing he refused to take the advice of his play testers and this is why the game is terrible. He was good at assembling other people's work into a playable manuscript. His embellishments are what helped sell those games, but he often made up rules that were untested and did not work well.
@@griffithmorgan4966 Yes, you are in the pro-Arneson camp. I am in the neutral camp, the person that really likes both Arneson and Gygax and thinks that BOTH Arneson and Gygax made fantastic contributions to D&D. They are both titans -- in the industry. Btw: almost everything you are saying is conjecture and almost nothing can be proven. And you are missing one important point -- Gygax wrote the AD&D Players Handbook and AD&D DM Guide -- sure he had help (and yes, I'm sure he borrowed a ton of ideas from other people in creating AD&D) -- but IMO AD&D 1ed is written proof that Gygax was also a good game designer. btw: being in the neutral camp I definitely believe that Arneson was easily responsible for more than 50% of the design of OD&D. Now was it 60 (Arneson) / 40 (Gygax), or 70 (Arneson) / 30 (Gygax), or 80 (Arneson) / 20 (Gygax)? I don't know -- and no one really knows. Kind of a silly argument as very little can really be proven -- just conjecture on both sides by both the Minnesota and Lake Geneva camps --and who really cares? Both of their names are on the OD&D booklets as co-creators of D&D. Arneson and Gygax are both giants!!
@@griffithmorgan4966 You've failed to mention AD&D 1e and most of your comments are opinions of Gygax's skill level at designing games. Sure, he must have had help and he borrowed lots of ideas, but you failed to mention that Gygax wrote the AD&D 1e DM's guide and 1e PHB (sure he had help and we know that the thief idea comes from the Aurana Gang in Southern California) - but he wrote those two epic books. Also, what about all the innovative adventure modules that Gygax wrote, and many of them rated very highly by most players. I actually don't think I've ever seen a top 10 list that has not included at least one module written by Gygax. IMO BOTH Gygax and Arneson were both skilled war gamers and really good game designers. I'm in the "neutral" bias camp and firmly believe that Arneson and Gygax were both Titans!! Everyone IMO that has ever played some version of D&D owes so much to the both of them!! I for one am not trying to take credit from either Arneson or Gygax. Thank you so much Dave and Gary!!
Very cool! Thanks for listening and commenting, and also for your support of me and the channel. I hope you enjoyed it! I made a few corrections "on screen" during the video (I got one name wrong and I also add more context to the Chainmail discussion, among others) so otherwise, listening without watching won't really impact your experience. Cheers to you!
I was peering around youtube to see who is talking about the new book. An FYI, Star Probe, Star Empire, and Star Master (the RPG). As a campaign it was being played roughly around 1973. David Megarry, The Author of Dungeon! board game was the Editor for a proposed publication of Part 3 of the series at Adventure Games. Pieces of the manuscript have been found. John Snider is consulting to help complete the game with David Megarry again as editor. We expect to do some kind of event around it at Arnecon game convention. Either a play session, or a seminar and over view. We may need play testers for it. If this interests you let me know. We also have complete drafts of Richard Snider's game Mutant, which was also rejected by TSR around 1974. That too is planned for publication.
Thanks so much for stopping by! I did chat about the book briefly but want to do a more in-depth look. Thanks for the notes about Star Probe/Empire/Master. I did do a more in-depth look at them in my video on Star Frontiers: ua-cam.com/video/tCIhIA3umhw/v-deo.htmlsi=LLA0Crw-eIyfw8s5 And I had heard about the potential for Part 3 when I was at DaveCon. One of the old-timers (I'm not going to mention his name because he told me that he wasn't sure if it should be revealed yet) mentioned to me that there was probably going to be a release of that game. I just never mentioned here on the channel because I didn't want to betray a confidence! But I am really happy to hear that it's proceeding and that John Snider is involved. That's such a huge thing for the community, I think. I would love to attend ArneCon in October, but I've run into a bit of a snag related to the boutique ad agency I run and as such I am being extremely conservative with my finances right now. Any other year, I think it would've been a done deal. Thank you so much for the invite and especially the invitation to play test the new game. I would be thrilled but unless something changes work-wise in the next few weeks, I suspect it's off-the-table for now. But, again, I truly appreciate the invite. And I cannot wait to see Mutant! I'd really not heard of this particular game until shortly before attending DaveCon a few months ago and I'm super excited that you guys are going to publish it. Gamma World was the second RPG I ever played, after Moldvay B/X D&D, and I've always had a soft-spot for the post-apocalyptic genre, being a Cold War 80's kid like yourself. I look forward to seeing how it differs as well as what ideas might have been... "borrowed" (?)... for Gamma World. Cheers.
great historical references and a balanced human view of Gary & Dave. bonus comment: Nina Simone! that's what I'm talk'n 'bout! such good music and what wild life. great pick as always.
This reminds whole conversation me of the Tesla vs. Edison stuff. Both were brilliant inventors. Both invented great things. I think it's arguable that Gary, like Edison, was good at getting products into the hands of people who love, want, and need them, there by improving people's lives. Yes, inventing something is worthy of great value, but getting it into the hands of more people and improving lives is dramatically more valuable than the invention itself.
Thanks for watching and commenting! Of the two, Gary was also, from what I have heard, the more outgoing and personable, so it was natural that he would be the one to promote the game. When you also consider Gary's financial state at the time of publication (he was extremely poor; Luke Gygax talks about have to put a sandwich baggie over his boots in the winter because of the holes), I think Gary was very protective, and proud, of the game once it started to sell like gangbusters and he wanted to revel in the success he was part of creating.
Also, you might enjoy reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao, a novel by Junot Díaz, which has many pop culture references and many of D&D. Note, the conceit used for the novel is extensive footnoting so don't allow that to throw you off the main narrative.
Thank you for this fascinating presentation. I too started my D&D journey with the 'red box' basic set. Also, I wrote on piece on Tolkien and D&D ( where I talk about Gygax and Arneson) in The Artifice.I used an academic voice given my profession - but if that is not too distracting I 'd love your opinion if you ever get a chance to review it. Finally, thanks for the reference on Fifty Years of Dungeons & Dragons I'm certainly going to pick it up.
Thank you so much for your comment! I appreciate you watching. I would love to read your article in the Artifice. Can you provide a link? Thanks! Glad you found the mention of 50 Years of Dungeons & Dragons helpful. I've quite enjoyed what I've read of it so far. Cheers!
@@daddyrolleda1 Hi, I placed the link in response to your comment on Facebook, I don't think UA-cam allows url links in the comments (at least not for me ).
Love this video and your channel, no thrilled to see you are hitting stretch goals on your Kickstarter, which I happily backed. I live in Los Angeles, and I wonder if you have any recommendations for local gaming stores in the area. It seems like a bunch of store vanished in the pandemic. Thanks in advance
A fun video! I love the green setting books for 2e as well. We only had a couple, but we played a lot of historical sessions in Rome or the Celtic world. 2e seemed well suited to pseudo historical play. The Gygax vs Arneson camps seem to have a lot of anxiety, which seems strange to me. I guess we like to imagine the singular genius cloistered away behind a typewriter, banging out what would be this amazing product we all love. The truth is always more complex than that. Having a better idea of the early settings and rules, thanks in no small part this channel, I still wonder about HOW the game was first played. Like when did DM screens become a thing? I know some, like Mentzner, didn't/don't use them at all. Did players roll their own dice? That kind of thing. Thanks!
Nice to meet a fellow fan of each! I'm getting ready to settle in for the night with some relaxing music, reading some more of that "Blackmoor Foundations" book, and a beverage. I'm considering what I want to drink as we speak!
Thank you so much for your support! I'm humbled by your continued support of the channel. And yes, one could easily do at least 1 video per book. I will add that to the list!
Been done by a few UA-camrs a few years ago -- but covering them some more in this channel would be welcome!! -- The Designer's & Dragons series is incredible!!
Bonus Section: I am really more of a scotch guy. I have a friend who owns part of a brewing company. Interestingly, he told me the hardest beers to make are lagers. Wild is the Wind has got to be the most amazing recording ever by Nina Simone. Even David Bowie liked it so much he covered it.
I do love Scotch and I'm not even one of those purists who will only drink Islay or whatever. I've featured a few here on the channel, but the sad part is that during the early pandemic lockdowns when I wasn't going out to eat or to pubs, I hit my collection pretty hard so there is not a ton of it left to show on the channel! I will have to replenish soon. Hopefully one day we can share a dram together in person. And yes, I have heard the exact same thing about lagers being more difficult to make than ales. I think, as I understand it, it partly has to do with the temperature they're made at. Lagers *have* to stay chilled during the brewing process, whereas an ale is a little more forgiving. That's not the only difference, but one I understand is difficult for some brewers (especially amateur/home brewers) to control. Thank you for staying through the bonus section. Nice to meet someone else who appreciates Nina Simone. I've also included a Bowie album in the Bonus Content before! Thanks again for the Blackmoor Foundations book. I'm reading through it in order now!
I'm totally not a snob, either! (At least, I hope not). My approach to things is "Drink it, and look for more..." This works for anything: Water, Coffee, Beer, Wine, Spirts...
Our local pub that runs the event sells tickets ahead of time that entitles you to one goblet of Younger, but you're also required to buy three other Russian River beers, so you're going to be there for a while drinking and tasting. It's fun but it's really crowded!
Hi Martin, You might want to check out the book published in 2001, "The Fantasy Role-playing Game: A New Performing Art," which is a discussion of the rpg as an art form. It's introduction does tackle a history of the development of the role-playing game.
I can certainly add it to the list! I've chatted briefly about some of the art books in my video on "D&D History: Foundations, Product Lines, Art & Creators" here: ua-cam.com/video/JPG5jBea0jk/v-deo.htmlsi=rghjlz3r5LYioww5 But, if you'd like something more in-depth, I can consider it! Thanks for watching and commenting, and for your support of the channel!
Check out “Dungeons and Dreamers” by King/Borland which explores the influence TTRPG’s had on the budding video game industry, as specifically recalled by the creator of Ultima but also on the entire computer revolution such as early unix OS development and bulletin board services in 80’s universities. When I first told my kids about D&D and its huge influence on their world, they shot back “how can they say they were the first?!? Papa, *every* video game has health bars and level progression!” Yes. Yes they do. Truly the king of games.
I have two copies of #86, one with the castle out assembled and a second intact, it might be the only early item in great condition I have, most of mine is musty from years in the basement of my patents house. But I have collected a lot of PDFs so I can print up a book and not fear thumbing it, highlighting or underlining!
The simple explanation of people remembering playing a game before any documented date is that there were not a lot of games back then, so they were playing the original designed rules before publication. In my DnD group in the late 1970s, out GM made a Star Wars game 5 years before the official rules came out...which he had no input into, but should have had. He also made major mods for original DnD. Also, my brother graduated high school in May 1976. He played DnD with other students at our local college. He was there for a year. and got me to join that group during that time. He then went to another college far away, so, I know I started playing DnD in 1976/1977 school year, and I know exactly how old I was...even though that was almost 40 years ago.
All very good points. Thanks for watching and for sharing! I remember "inventing" a Star Wars RPG in my head one summer while staying at my grandma's house and mowing her lawn with a manual (non-powered) lawn mower often. I'd push the lawn mower and talk to myself to design the game. And then just a few years later, West End Games came out with their D6 version and I was crushed! 😀
I had Adventures in Fantasy by Arneson and Snider. Good game. The issue was that the three books were printed in Green, Blue and Red colored ink for the text. Trying to read the Red Book 📕 was akin to staring at the sun ☀️ for five minutes straight.
Yes, I remember! I played both. Did I mistakenly say something to the contrary? I thought I mentioned that when the 30th Anniversary book came out in 2004 that 3.5 had just come out ("just" to me is within a year or two).
@@daddyrolleda1 I only said something because I worked in a Wizards of the Coast Retail store in a Shopping Mall when 3.0 came out. I was literally selling the book on Day 1's release.
@@VMSelvaggio Oh wow! Not sure if you've seen some of my other videos but I worked at an ad agency on the advertising for WotC right after the Hasbro takeover. The client sent me al the 3E core books as well as some Pokémon cards, Magic cards, Star Wars D20 book, and more. That got me back into playing D&D regularly after a short hiatus, as I started running a campaign for my co-workers to help them understand what D&D was all about.
@@daddyrolleda1 We had a really nice Store Discount (33% off) so I still have all my 3.5 books, because there is NO WAY I would ever be able to reacquire them for that price if I decided to get rid of them.
There is a series of ebooks called "Hawk and Moor" which I am reading these days. They also contain a lot of information, though I am still at the start and I haven't formed an opinion yet.
Interesting. Does Art of Dragon magazine have the Denis Beauvais Chess covers? I think those were the most famous and admired of the 80s, but maybe they didn't have permission to reprint?
Yes! "Art of Dragon Magazine" has three of the Beauvais chess covers featured as a two-page spread from issues #83, #86, and #89. Unfortunately, the cover for #86 runs right through the center of the book so it's almost impossible to see the entire thing.
That is so cool! You started a few years before I did (1981 for me). I'm happy to hear you still have a lot of your original D&D books! Thanks for watching and for commenting!
That WotC book may be a combo reprint of D&D 0E and the history book written a few years ago by the author. I don't know if they sent the texts through their diversity and inclusion meat grinder though.
There is a very detailed synopsis of the content of this book on Amazon and it is available for pre-order -- and coming out really soon. I saw a video about it recently -- you'll just get a bunch of garbage about how Gary Gygax had topless art in OD&D, and the usual garbage about class limits for non-humans, yeah just ignore that garbage from WoTC.
Ooh, that's fantastic! Congrats! Just out of curiosity, what'd you get? (No judgments here - I'm not one of those folks who will go on and on about whether you got the right or wrong one; I don't really know that much about turntables. But I'm always curious to learn what people have). I need a few more parameters to give you some vinyl recommendations. What kind of music do you normally listen to? Are you looking to stay in those genres, or are you looking to expand? How adventurous are you with music?
@@daddyrolleda1 I'm looking for "rare" music, stuff that's not on Spotify. Other than that? Favorite genres are: Classical Jazz Progressive rock Bluegrass Folk rock Folk etc. And yes, I wouldn't mind expanding from these genres.
Sorry for the delay here. I'm not really well-versed in Classical at all and I'm never quite sure what it available on Spotify or not. For Jazz, and also a way to start branching out into jazz-funk and soul, you can check out the Jazz Dispensary label (a part of Craft Recordings): www.discogs.com/label/1376891-Jazz-Dispensary?page=1 They find old, out-of-print records/songs and make compilation albums with themes and usually distribute a new one for each Record Store Day and for RSD Black Friday. The majority of the songs, I've found, are not available on Spotify. So, they're "rare" from that standpoint, but they're not "old" if that's what you're looking for. I am also a big fan of Ron Carter's "Empire Jazz" (jazz versions of the Empire Strikes Back soundtrack; I mentioned it in one of my videos): www.discogs.com/release/12532743-Ron-Carter-Empire-Jazz There are also quite a few movie soundtracks that aren't available on Spotify, such as the original sound track to "The Dark Crystal" by Trevor Jones: www.discogs.com/release/10173809-Trevor-Jones-The-Dark-Crystal-Original-Motion-Picture-Soundtrack I have quite a few Christmas albums that aren't on Spotify if that's also a thing you like, such as "Happy Christmas Beatle People!" (www.discogs.com/release/11255594-The-Beatles-Happy-Christmas-Beatle-People-The-Christmas-Records) or "God Rest Ye Merry Jazzmen" (www.discogs.com/release/9491568-Various-God-Rest-Ye-Merry-Jazzmen). Then there are more novelty records, like "The D-O-D-G-E-R-S Song" by Danny Kaye: www.discogs.com/release/2642992-Danny-Kaye-D-O-D-G-E-R-S-Song (this is a 45 and I will warn you that the b-side hasn't really aged well). I am sadly not super well-informed on Bluegrass, Folk, or Folk-Rock. Hope this helps!
I have watched a lot of history on both Dave and Gary influences on D&D. One thing that seems clear to me is Gary was much more active with rules building, writing, running a variety of games for friends and locals and then using feedback to revise the mechanics. Dave doesn't seem to be very prolific or organized, and a lot of his independent work is lacking creativity. Gary did borrow from a lot of sources, but he also is the reason we have the foundations of the game we play today, that D&D got published and grew into a number of rules sets, and that TSR as a business existed. Dave didn't play a role in most of those things. He was more of a creativity sounding board for Gary and they played together on occasion. Dave did innovate from time to time, but he wasn't writing or building anything that could be sold until after Gary had codified the game system. Even though heroes being "role-played" and dungeon crawling was first done by Dave Arneson in his chainmail variant, roleplaying key characters and using a GM was already a part of the wargaming community at the time, so fantasy versions of this is the seeds for D&D and what Dave did. Gary took this idea so much further.
Oh, very cool! My wife used to work in Santa Rosa for a while, but while I was born up in the Bay Area (Marin County), I live in Southern California now. If you see my previous video on the Warlock game and the Caltech Gamer Crew, you'll see some pictures of Caltech in Pasadena which is just a few blocks from where I live! I visited Russian River Brewing Co. along with Bear Republic and also a few wineries a while ago with a group of friends for my 40th birthday!
SoCal stuff. Good videos. Cool your wife worked in Santa Rosa. It's a nice town. I was born in Marin county too at Marin County General. Trippy man. It's a small world after all. Cheers!
I don't often meet folks from there! I'm not sure how many hospitals there were so I don't recall exactly what hospital I was born at, but we lived in San Rafael and my grandma lived in Mill Valley. Cheers!
Regarding Lorraine Williams, my understanding is that her approach to business was very much of a particular loyalty based flavor. If you were 'loyal', didn't argue against her, and and toed her company line she would go to extreme lengths to take care of you. If you were someone she saw as disloyal to her, or worse a direct enemy, or even just less then fully supportive of the directions she wanted the properties of the company to go she would destroy you to the best of her abilities. The main issues seem to always come from the latter part of that including most of the creative staff of TSR and it's core fanbase demographic.
A warning to anyone who wants to buy "Fifty Years of D&D." It's an academic book, so the content is quite dry. There are a lot of footnotes that will lead you to sources that you might find to be a better read. I found it to be not a great source by itself for learning about the history of the hobby.
I've only read the introduction and Zach & Tony's chapter so far. I know the introduction said it worked best to read it in order, but there are certain topics I'm more interested in diving into right away. I've also been making notes of original sources I might want to explore, as you point out.
Yeah -- basically a collection of essays book. Best book by far and you only need two books/series which are: 1) Playing at the World by Jon Peterson and 2) Shannon Applecline's Designer's and Dragons series, and on the art side I definitely agree with Martin -- the Art and Arcana books is fantastic!! The Shadows over Blackmoor I'd also argue is definitely worth picking up.
34:57 it's just like talking about former co-workers. some people, still have an ax to grind even 20 years later depending how they got along at a company or retreated by someone or the company. You talk about one coworker, and he's the greatest, you talk about another coworker and you want nothing to do with the person 🙂.
I tend to focus on TSR because that's the stuff I had access to as a kid (my local shops didn't really carry other publishers) and consequently it's the stuff I actually own in physical copies and what I know the most about. Nothing against the other companies, but as I mentioned when I briefly discussed Tunnels & Trolls in my video on 1975 RPGs - I sometimes feel a little disingenuous talking about those games because I know there are folks out there who are much more knowledgeable and passionate about them than I am. Hope that makes sense. Appreciate you watching and commenting!
Designer's & Dragons - by Shannon Applecline - 5 Books of complete TTRPG goodness (although the Platinum Edition I don't think was ever printed -- only available as PDF). Shannon will probably come out with a 2010 book soon. Really looking forward to it.
the urge people have to create drama and stress without caring how it impacts others is an unfortunate issue with all things not just this hobby. Like what you like, dont put others down because of their opinion as long as it is not harmful towards others. GO AND PLAY!!! get over yourselves.
Firstly, thank you for watching and commenting, and for your support of the channel. I really appreciate it. And, thanks for your comment. I totally get that my videos aren't for everyone, as they are very long and kind of "rambling" (I tell people they're "conversational" but I think that's just a nice way of saying that I ramble). I understand if you don't watch them all in one go, or if you lose interested after a bit. I appreciate whatever time and attention you can give. Thank you!
I started with Dragon #58, but lost most in floods in my parent's basement. A few years ago at GenCon I picked up a copy of #58 for sentimental value from a vendor who had a ton of the mags from the 80s and 90s.
It always breaks my heart when I hear from folks who lost their gaming collection (or really, any of their possessions) in a flood. I've heard that story so much, and can't even imagine how awful that would be. Glad you were able to replace at least one issue. Cheers, and thanks for watching and commenting!
Ugh. I feel you here. I lost an original Tomb of Horrors and, ironically, a Dungeoneers Survival Guide to a basement flood back in ‘87.
I know the feeling.
I had to sell most of my game collection in 2008 to keep from losing my house at the time. I was selling things that today would fetch high dollar for near nothing.
It was tough times as unemployment was really only enough to pay the mortgage and eat one meal a day. As a way to keep from spending too much on heat, I was living in my tiny basement over the winter.
But, what I do still have are good memories with friends. Those stay forever.
Griff
Sorry to hear about your loss. When I was in the military and coming back from living overseas the military lost over half of my personal goods etc and the have had my fair share is losing a lot of my gaming content. I started in ‘74/75 and having been a TTRPG player for 50 years and a DM/GM for 48 years. I had to buy replacement copies (at often really high prices) to replace the items I really wanted to bring back to my collection. Wishing you the best ❤.
@@griffithmorgan4966 Did I see you in the Dungeon Delvers Stream the other night?
l'd LOVE to see the First Fantasy Campaign get its own, dedicated video. As in depth as possible, perhaps including comparisons to the Blackmoor supplement. Your content is great, and I appreciate your point of view and the time you take with each subject. Thanks for doing what you do!
I really appreciate you taking the time to comment and write this. Thank you so much for watching! And I will definitely add this to the list of potential future topics. I like your idea of comparing FFC to Blackmoor: Supplement II. Thanks!
@Daddy Rolled a 1, As someone who has long had an interest in the history and historiography of D&D and RPGs more generally, I thoroughly enjoyed this video. I might even go as far as saying it’s my favourite ever piece of UA-cam content. Great job!
Will you be at Gen Con this summer? If so, I’ll gladly buy you a drink 😄 🍻
You have no idea how happy I was to see this comment today! I was at the pub for lunch with the guy who did the layout and covers for my Kickstarter supplement, and I had to read to him what you said. Made my day!
I am sadly not going to GenCon this year but I do hope to end up at a convention you're at one day to say "hi" and chat. I really appreciate it! Cheers!
Excited to get my hands on your KS book. Congratulations again!
Thank you so much for your support! I really appreciate it!
All Star games was a great shop. I was happy to hear you patroned them. Dave and Carol were awesome people. I am very proud to have known them. Between them founding their store as well as Games University Convention and organizing many gaming events. Their impact in Southern California is keenly felt, especially after their passing. Being a Southern California gamer for over 40 years. I love hearing about the FLGS in the area. Especially All Star Games, Aero Hobbies, and The Warhouse in Long Beach (aka Balboa Game Company). A place I personally grew up in. Thanks and again for a great video Martin.I would love a video covering several of the early game shops of Southern California and their impact on the hobby in those early days.
I’m also a SoCal (Los Angeles) gamer and would love to know what good game stores are still around. It feels like a lot when out of business once the pandemic. Any recommendations?
@@marksable5753 there are still several game stores around. Although the only one that has a long history that I’m aware of is Brookhurst Hobbies in Garden Grove. They have been around fire at least 40 years if not longer. There is also the Guild House in Bellflower and Side Quest Games in Pomona. These are close to me but they are not the only ones. I also know there is a game store in Ontario and Claremont. Unfortunately since I used to frequent the Warhouse I have not really experienced any of these ships more than once or twice. I hope this helps you out
@christopherkearney6477 and @marksable5753 So funny you mention Brookhurst Hobbies! I just mentioned them in today's video before seeing this comment! I went for the first time around 1995 or so. I remember it being huge.
Mark, it really depends on what part of Los Angeles you're in, but as Christopher pointed out, there are few "historic" game stores here any longer. Over by me in Pasadena, we have two shops: Odyssey Games and Gameology. The Gameology one is a "franchise" of a location in Upland (the Inland Empire).
Odyssey games has a bit of a history. Back in the 1990s it was originally a place called Game Zone which I frequented somewhat often. It was a bit of a mess - one of those shops where there is no organization, no ventilation, almost no natural lighting, and disinterested employees. But you could find treasures in there if you looked. It was later acquired by a guy named Chuck whose brother owned a game store in San Diego called Game Empire. Chuck "franchised" Game Empire to the Pasadena location of Game Zone, opened up the front window area to provide natural light, added ventilation, got rid of the back video gaming room (where people would rent time by the hour to play games like World of Warcraft and sit in there and eat pizza and snacks, contributing to the odor of the shop), and trained the employees to greet customers, etc. They had a very large used/out-of-print gaming area (I got a boxed set of the 1983 Greyhawk campaign setting, in shrink wrap, for $10).
Game Empire then moved locations, sold off a bunch of their used/out-of-print games, and then Chuck died of cancer during the pandemic lockdowns and his wife sold the shop to a former customer, who renamed it Odyssey games. Still a nice shop with tons of open gaming tables and a fairly decent library of used board games, but no real vintage RPG stuff and almost no OSR stuff. It's like 90% WotC and Pathfinder.
Let us know what shop(s) you visit!
My dad worked with Dave's brother (I think it was Dave's brother; it might have been Carol's brother) at Unocal in the 1990's. I visited so often that the employees knew me by name and started giving me a 10% discount just because I was a loyal customer. I felt to special when they did that. I'd never had anybody treat me like that before! I specifically recall Jim Pinto working there and later realizing that he and I had gone to college together (I remember seeing him in our "Sound Stage" which was a place to eat on campus, but I didn't really know him them). It was a great shop and I was sad to learn about Carol and Dave and that the shop had closed.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! And I will add the idea on California game shops to the list of potential future topics!
This may not be my favourite video you’ve made, but it is likely the most useful!
Thank you for showing off such a robust collection of sources.
I had a feeling folks might feel this way, which is totally fine. I felt like I have this huge collection of D&D history media, and some folks (especially those newer to the game) might not be aware of it all. I also, to be quite blunt, was sort of running on fumes after putting so much time into my Kickstarter but I still wanted to release a video this week.
I am glad you found it useful, and I really appreciate your support of the channel. Cheers!
Thats so cool how you mentioned studies on using roleplaying games for education because I've written a few college essays and a speech on using it in special needs settings and giving students social confidence, so it's nice to see that sort of thing mentioned by one of my favorite youtubers!
Martin would you ever think about putting out a “just for fun” video of maybe your top ten modules. That would be cool to watch. Great channel with so much information.
Thank you so much for saying that, and for watching and commenting! I do like this idea, and I think I'll add it to my list of potential future topics. It would be fun to hear other peoples' thoughts as well. Thanks!
@@daddyrolleda1 As with many "grognards", I have really fond memories of playing in and running B1. There was something so charming about it, and the illustrations! Men in clunky armor poking things with poles, wizards in pointy hats!
Gygsx vs. Arneson reminds me of Stan Lee vs. Jack Kirby (and Steve Ditko). One guy who's taken the lion's share of credit vs. someone who received much less credit and money for their contribution. (I don't know as much about the financial side when it comes to Gygax and Arneson, that's just my vague impression.) Once people learn about this disparity, they often feel like championing the less recognized creator.
A few people have made this comparison, and I don't think it's too far off. I also think in both cases, you have one person who is very comfortable with self-promotion and another who is more shy and soft-spoken, so from a personality standpoint, the public is going to hear from one much more than the other.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1Thank you for the videos! Guilty anecdote: a long time ago I was at a San Diego Comic Con talk by Stan Lee with a Q&A session at the end. As an edgy young man looking to strike a blow for justice, I asked a pointed (though not outright insulting) question about Kirby not getting enough credit. To speak to the public speaking skill you mentioned, Lee's answer was so modest and non-defensive that I immediately felt awful for having been rude to a childhood hero.
We have all had similar experiences, I'm sure. I still beat myself up late at night while trying to fall asleep about conversations I had back when I was in high school!
I'd love to see a LONG video of you just delving on the history of D&D art. The artists, the styles, what was good then and bad now, what's good now and was bad in the past, the mood wtc.
I love the after show part of your videos. Plus, I love your taste in music. 🎼
Thank you so much for saying that! I love hearing from folks who watch the end of my videos for that. Cheers to you!
Great video. You covered a lot of material. by the way Ken was at the convention, but left early. wanted him to meet you..
The history of dungeons and dragons book that was done in graphic novel format was interesting. The parts that it covered dealing with Arneson or Minnesota were dubious or incorrect on some points, not you, but author and illustrator. I remember being at Dave’s house when they looked through it and started giggling on some points. They had no reason to question the Gygax side of it because they did not know.
And I know they would be mad at me if I let it known. A lot of material that is out there dealing with Minnesota really didn’t approach the guys here in Minnesota at all and there’s quite clearly some assumptions they made. I like the fact that you kept your opinions out of the interpretation of anything. You’re trying to stay open minded and that is appreciated.
As you begin to dive more and more into the information, it will become quite clear what happened. And you are correct there was no animosity between and personally. . Beef was breaking the agreement and he is eventual discovery. He was not the only one who was being cut out of the money and credit. And a reminder that Arnesen gave away his money that he did win in court, and he gave it away to a lot of game, developers, and other charities.
The above comments by Kevin. Without Kevin the film Secrets of Blackmoor would not have happened. Kevin was Dave Arneson's web master and is a significant member of the Blackmoor Bunch in the later period.
Thanks for pointing out the Tony Diterlizzi posts about his monstrous compendium work - didn’t recognize his name but certainly recognize his art!
It is some of my favorite 2E era art because it was so different from a lot of the other art being done at the time. Glad you enjoyed it!
Martin. As I love TTRPG and especially D&D history I have many of the same books you have. I have even gone so far as to get them on audible. It’s interesting to be working on my World Building or my game planning, etc. and just take it all in. ❤. I love this channel.
That is awesome to hear! If you have any other history books like this that I didn't mention but which you think I should get for my collection, let me know!
Got my usual email update from OSE's publisher Necrotic Gnome and saw your book "ALCHEMY, EXPLOSIONS & INVENTIONS" advertised! Congratulations and good luck!
Yes, that was so cool! I was so surprised to be featured first for third party publishers!
Good Sir Martin. I went all in on your KICKSTARTER good sir. Love ❤ your channel.
This is awesome! Also, I don't believe anybody has ever called me "Sir Martin" before! That's cool!
I love all your videos! It really inspires me to see older sensibilities and mechanics talked about; it gives a larger view on D&D in general.
I'm so glad to hear that! Thank you for watching and commenting, and I'm really happy you enjoyed the video. Cheers!
Love your videos, recently discovered this channel.
I would love to see a video where you showed your favorite book and magazine covers. I love seeing those.
I will add it to the list of potential future topics.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting. I'm so glad you discovered the channel!
@@daddyrolleda1 Here's an idea for a more odd topic:
The history of game cards before TCGs.
I can certainly add it to the list of potential topics! Thanks!
The quality of Art and Arcana is the main reason I pre-ordered the new D&D history book
I still haven't ordered it because I'm still catching up on some many other things that I've purchased over the past few months. But I'm definitely going to pick it up.
@@daddyrolleda1 Well I had already ordered it, so instead today I grabbed the Eye of the Beholder documentary and the Blackmoor book based on your recommendations.
FYI, there was no bad blood between Chaosium and TSR over Deities and Demigods. Chaosium did not even ask for royalties, they just wanted to be listed and credited. It was the Bloom brothers who refused to list and credit what they saw as the competition. That is why the materials were removed.
Go ask Tim Kask. He knows.
Yes, I've chatted about this before a few times, although I didn't specifically call out the Blume brothers. A lot of folks incorrectly think that TSR was "in the wrong" when, as you point out, that was not the case at all.
I might have mentioned this before, but Seth Skorkowski has a video with Sandy Petersen, where the latter presents a near first hand version of the Deities and Demigods kerfuffle.
I do remember this now that you mention it, and I have to search that video up. I do enjoy Seth's channel but I only discovered it within the last ~2 years and there is a LOT of content there I haven't been through.
I'm tickled that you used my word "kerfuffle" as it's something that I've said before but it's odd because I don't use it in regular every day talking. But I know I've used it at least twice when recording my videos and not having a more "correct" word on the tip of my tongue. Cheers!
@@neil_chazin Yes, Seth's video on Deities & Demigod's is definitely the best one on this topic!!
About Chainmail in 1969.
I think that’s Jeff Peren’s original rules for Siege of Bodenburg, which was in Panzerfaust. Then a bit later, Gary edits it and they put it into the Domesdaybook 5. Then it turns in to Chainmail.
Ah, yes! I put a small disclaimer note on the video at that point but without the level of detail you have here. Thanks!
Yes, Panzerfaust was the first time the Chainmail rules were published. If you want the exact details this info is printed in Playing at the World by Jon Person and in one of Shannon Applecline's Designer's and Dragons books. Yes -- 1969 in Panzerfaust and then later in Domesday book and then later Chainmail is published as a standalone rule book.
Excellent video, I learned a lot! I hope you sell tons of your alchemy book too!
Thank you so much! I'm so glad you enjoyed the video, and I also thank you for your well-wishes for my Kickstarter. I've held off doing it for quite a while because I was anxious about the whole thing, but it seems to be going well so far!
Thanks again! Cheers!
Another well done content!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
love the videos and this new series please keep it up and the only request I have is if you see this comment can you do a deeper dive into the war games that led to chainmail? everybody knows D&D comes from chainmail and these other places but nobody ever talks about where chainmail came from.
I like this idea! Thanks! I will add it to the list of potential future topics.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
Done in nauseating detail in Playing at the World by Jon Peterson -- Chapter 3 of Playing at the World is all about Kriegspeil (over 150 years leading up to the creation of D&D!!) -- goes into stuff that helped create Braunstein like Diplomacy. Yes, good topic for a video.
Pledged. 😊 should be over 200% now. All the best Martin
Art & Arcana is amazing.
Indeed! Not sure if you saw, but in addition to mentioning it in the video, I also linked to your review in my show notes!
@@daddyrolleda1 I DID, thank you so much!
37:38 I'm not really watching the show, you're being listened to in the background while I'm doing stuff 🙂.
But you are correct, thank you for turning me on to the we were Wizards podcast, it is really good 😎.
My view is that Arneson was the esoteric soul and Gygax was the analytical mind in the creation of Dungeons and Dragons. Arneson started it at the role playing level but Gygax made it a functional system that could actually be played.
I think very broadly that this is true, but of course there are nuances to everything. Even Dave Wesely (who created Braunstein, from which Blackmoor derived) said that without Dave Arneson, you don't have D&D, but without Gary Gygax, only like 100 people would've ever heard of it.
@@daddyrolleda1 Even that anecdote is misleading. The reality is that both Gary and Dave had a hand at creating D&D. So, to say that Dave was the sole designer and that Gary produced the game IMO is very misleading, Gary was also an experienced game designer and war gamer. I think it's better to say that both Gary and Dave created the game. They are both titans and both deserve the credit for creating a wonderful game!!
Yes, and it is good to recognize people and games that came before D&D like Strategos, Diplomacy, Siege of Bodenburg, and Braunstein.
I really hate all the people that try to take away from what Dave did or from what Gary did -- the reality is they BOTH created D&D -- and both of their names are listed as the creators on the D&D rules from 1974.
Yeah, unfortunately you have the two biased camps, the Minnesota camp and the Lake Geneva camp -- and problem is stuff coming from people's memories is super questionable-- and in the end who really cares about the small details. The who did exactly what (and who came up with which ideas) -- is getting really, really old, especially given the fact that Dave and Gary passed away years ago.
That would be to not understand Arneson. Arneson was very analytical when it came to number crunching for game design. Gary only truly has one design under his belt which was the Custer's last stand game.
They put Gary's name on a lot of things, but he was not the creative mind behind them. He did not write Tractics, he did not write Dungeon!, and all he did on chainmail was plagiarize another authors fantasy war game.
ok, maybe he did Lankhmar. But during play testing he refused to take the advice of his play testers and this is why the game is terrible.
He was good at assembling other people's work into a playable manuscript. His embellishments are what helped sell those games, but he often made up rules that were untested and did not work well.
@@griffithmorgan4966 Yes, you are in the pro-Arneson camp. I am in the neutral camp, the person that really likes both Arneson and Gygax and thinks that BOTH Arneson and Gygax made fantastic contributions to D&D. They are both titans -- in the industry. Btw: almost everything you are saying is conjecture and almost nothing can be proven. And you are missing one important point -- Gygax wrote the AD&D Players Handbook and AD&D DM Guide -- sure he had help (and yes, I'm sure he borrowed a ton of ideas from other people in creating AD&D) -- but IMO AD&D 1ed is written proof that Gygax was also a good game designer.
btw: being in the neutral camp I definitely believe that Arneson was easily responsible for more than 50% of the design of OD&D. Now was it 60 (Arneson) / 40 (Gygax), or 70 (Arneson) / 30 (Gygax), or 80 (Arneson) / 20 (Gygax)? I don't know -- and no one really knows. Kind of a silly argument as very little can really be proven -- just conjecture on both sides by both the Minnesota and Lake Geneva camps --and who really cares? Both of their names are on the OD&D booklets as co-creators of D&D. Arneson and Gygax are both giants!!
@@griffithmorgan4966 You've failed to mention AD&D 1e and most of your comments are opinions of Gygax's skill level at designing games. Sure, he must have had help and he borrowed lots of ideas, but you failed to mention that Gygax wrote the AD&D 1e DM's guide and 1e PHB (sure he had help and we know that the thief idea comes from the Aurana Gang in Southern California) - but he wrote those two epic books. Also, what about all the innovative adventure modules that Gygax wrote, and many of them rated very highly by most players. I actually don't think I've ever seen a top 10 list that has not included at least one module written by Gygax. IMO BOTH Gygax and Arneson were both skilled war gamers and really good game designers.
I'm in the "neutral" bias camp and firmly believe that Arneson and Gygax were both Titans!! Everyone IMO that has ever played some version of D&D owes so much to the both of them!! I for one am not trying to take credit from either Arneson or Gygax. Thank you so much Dave and Gary!!
I just started listening. I apparently missed the UA-cam notification earlier. I recognize all the books in the opening.
Very cool! Thanks for listening and commenting, and also for your support of me and the channel. I hope you enjoyed it! I made a few corrections "on screen" during the video (I got one name wrong and I also add more context to the Chainmail discussion, among others) so otherwise, listening without watching won't really impact your experience. Cheers to you!
very nicely done
Thank you very much! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
You live in Pasadena! Cool, I live in Highland Park. Do you ever get together with other people for in-person gaming?
I put Playing at the World in my sabbatical grant proposal. I MUST read that.
The second edition of Playing at the Worls is supposed to come out this summer. I'd recommend reading 2nd edition when it comes out.
@@quantus5875 yup. That’s what’s on the grant proposal’s reading list
I was peering around youtube to see who is talking about the new book.
An FYI, Star Probe, Star Empire, and Star Master (the RPG). As a campaign it was being played roughly around 1973.
David Megarry, The Author of Dungeon! board game was the Editor for a proposed publication of Part 3 of the series at Adventure Games.
Pieces of the manuscript have been found. John Snider is consulting to help complete the game with David Megarry again as editor.
We expect to do some kind of event around it at Arnecon game convention. Either a play session, or a seminar and over view. We may need play testers for it. If this interests you let me know.
We also have complete drafts of Richard Snider's game Mutant, which was also rejected by TSR around 1974. That too is planned for publication.
Thanks so much for stopping by! I did chat about the book briefly but want to do a more in-depth look.
Thanks for the notes about Star Probe/Empire/Master. I did do a more in-depth look at them in my video on Star Frontiers: ua-cam.com/video/tCIhIA3umhw/v-deo.htmlsi=LLA0Crw-eIyfw8s5
And I had heard about the potential for Part 3 when I was at DaveCon. One of the old-timers (I'm not going to mention his name because he told me that he wasn't sure if it should be revealed yet) mentioned to me that there was probably going to be a release of that game. I just never mentioned here on the channel because I didn't want to betray a confidence! But I am really happy to hear that it's proceeding and that John Snider is involved. That's such a huge thing for the community, I think.
I would love to attend ArneCon in October, but I've run into a bit of a snag related to the boutique ad agency I run and as such I am being extremely conservative with my finances right now. Any other year, I think it would've been a done deal. Thank you so much for the invite and especially the invitation to play test the new game. I would be thrilled but unless something changes work-wise in the next few weeks, I suspect it's off-the-table for now. But, again, I truly appreciate the invite.
And I cannot wait to see Mutant! I'd really not heard of this particular game until shortly before attending DaveCon a few months ago and I'm super excited that you guys are going to publish it. Gamma World was the second RPG I ever played, after Moldvay B/X D&D, and I've always had a soft-spot for the post-apocalyptic genre, being a Cold War 80's kid like yourself. I look forward to seeing how it differs as well as what ideas might have been... "borrowed" (?)... for Gamma World.
Cheers.
great historical references and a balanced human view of Gary & Dave.
bonus comment: Nina Simone! that's what I'm talk'n 'bout! such good music and what wild life. great pick as always.
This reminds whole conversation me of the Tesla vs. Edison stuff. Both were brilliant inventors. Both invented great things.
I think it's arguable that Gary, like Edison, was good at getting products into the hands of people who love, want, and need them, there by improving people's lives.
Yes, inventing something is worthy of great value, but getting it into the hands of more people and improving lives is dramatically more valuable than the invention itself.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Of the two, Gary was also, from what I have heard, the more outgoing and personable, so it was natural that he would be the one to promote the game. When you also consider Gary's financial state at the time of publication (he was extremely poor; Luke Gygax talks about have to put a sandwich baggie over his boots in the winter because of the holes), I think Gary was very protective, and proud, of the game once it started to sell like gangbusters and he wanted to revel in the success he was part of creating.
Also, you might enjoy reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao, a novel by Junot Díaz, which has many pop culture references and many of D&D. Note, the conceit used for the novel is extensive footnoting so don't allow that to throw you off the main narrative.
Thank you for this fascinating presentation. I too started my D&D journey with the 'red box' basic set. Also, I wrote on piece on Tolkien and D&D ( where I talk about Gygax and Arneson) in The Artifice.I used an academic voice given my profession - but if that is not too distracting I 'd love your opinion if you ever get a chance to review it. Finally, thanks for the reference on Fifty Years of Dungeons & Dragons I'm certainly going to pick it up.
Thank you so much for your comment! I appreciate you watching. I would love to read your article in the Artifice. Can you provide a link? Thanks!
Glad you found the mention of 50 Years of Dungeons & Dragons helpful. I've quite enjoyed what I've read of it so far.
Cheers!
@@daddyrolleda1 Hi, I placed the link in response to your comment on Facebook, I don't think UA-cam allows url links in the comments (at least not for me ).
Love this video and your channel, no thrilled to see you are hitting stretch goals on your Kickstarter, which I happily backed. I live in Los Angeles, and I wonder if you have any recommendations for local gaming stores in the area. It seems like a bunch of store vanished in the pandemic. Thanks in advance
A fun video!
I love the green setting books for 2e as well. We only had a couple, but we played a lot of historical sessions in Rome or the Celtic world. 2e seemed well suited to pseudo historical play.
The Gygax vs Arneson camps seem to have a lot of anxiety, which seems strange to me. I guess we like to imagine the singular genius cloistered away behind a typewriter, banging out what would be this amazing product we all love. The truth is always more complex than that.
Having a better idea of the early settings and rules, thanks in no small part this channel, I still wonder about HOW the game was first played. Like when did DM screens become a thing? I know some, like Mentzner, didn't/don't use them at all. Did players roll their own dice? That kind of thing.
Thanks!
A Hazy IPA and Nina. Perfect.
Nice to meet a fellow fan of each!
I'm getting ready to settle in for the night with some relaxing music, reading some more of that "Blackmoor Foundations" book, and a beverage. I'm considering what I want to drink as we speak!
The Designer & Dungeons books would be cool to hear about. Seems like you could get four videos out of that.
Thank you so much for your support! I'm humbled by your continued support of the channel.
And yes, one could easily do at least 1 video per book. I will add that to the list!
Been done by a few UA-camrs a few years ago -- but covering them some more in this channel would be welcome!! -- The Designer's & Dragons series is incredible!!
Bonus Section:
I am really more of a scotch guy.
I have a friend who owns part of a brewing company. Interestingly, he told me the hardest beers to make are lagers.
Wild is the Wind has got to be the most amazing recording ever by Nina Simone. Even David Bowie liked it so much he covered it.
I do love Scotch and I'm not even one of those purists who will only drink Islay or whatever. I've featured a few here on the channel, but the sad part is that during the early pandemic lockdowns when I wasn't going out to eat or to pubs, I hit my collection pretty hard so there is not a ton of it left to show on the channel! I will have to replenish soon. Hopefully one day we can share a dram together in person.
And yes, I have heard the exact same thing about lagers being more difficult to make than ales. I think, as I understand it, it partly has to do with the temperature they're made at. Lagers *have* to stay chilled during the brewing process, whereas an ale is a little more forgiving. That's not the only difference, but one I understand is difficult for some brewers (especially amateur/home brewers) to control.
Thank you for staying through the bonus section. Nice to meet someone else who appreciates Nina Simone. I've also included a Bowie album in the Bonus Content before!
Thanks again for the Blackmoor Foundations book. I'm reading through it in order now!
@@daddyrolleda1 I am too poor to be a scotch snob.
As long as it's something which burns a bit going down the throat. :P
I'm totally not a snob, either! (At least, I hope not). My approach to things is "Drink it, and look for more..."
This works for anything: Water, Coffee, Beer, Wine, Spirts...
You bette make a day of it, at a Pliny the Younger tasting.
Thanks again
Our local pub that runs the event sells tickets ahead of time that entitles you to one goblet of Younger, but you're also required to buy three other Russian River beers, so you're going to be there for a while drinking and tasting. It's fun but it's really crowded!
Hi Martin, You might want to check out the book published in 2001, "The Fantasy Role-playing Game: A New Performing Art," which is a discussion of the rpg as an art form. It's introduction does tackle a history of the development of the role-playing game.
Do you ever plan on doing a deep dive on the art of dnd or books like art and arcana
I can certainly add it to the list! I've chatted briefly about some of the art books in my video on "D&D History: Foundations, Product Lines, Art & Creators" here: ua-cam.com/video/JPG5jBea0jk/v-deo.htmlsi=rghjlz3r5LYioww5
But, if you'd like something more in-depth, I can consider it!
Thanks for watching and commenting, and for your support of the channel!
Check out “Dungeons and Dreamers” by King/Borland which explores the influence TTRPG’s had on the budding video game industry, as specifically recalled by the creator of Ultima but also on the entire computer revolution such as early unix OS development and bulletin board services in 80’s universities. When I first told my kids about D&D and its huge influence on their world, they shot back “how can they say they were the first?!? Papa, *every* video game has health bars and level progression!” Yes. Yes they do. Truly the king of games.
I have two copies of #86, one with the castle out assembled and a second intact, it might be the only early item in great condition I have, most of mine is musty from years in the basement of my patents house. But I have collected a lot of PDFs so I can print up a book and not fear thumbing it, highlighting or underlining!
The simple explanation of people remembering playing a game before any documented date is that there were not a lot of games back then, so they were playing the original designed rules before publication.
In my DnD group in the late 1970s, out GM made a Star Wars game 5 years before the official rules came out...which he had no input into, but should have had. He also made major mods for original DnD. Also, my brother graduated high school in May 1976. He played DnD with other students at our local college. He was there for a year. and got me to join that group during that time. He then went to another college far away, so, I know I started playing DnD in 1976/1977 school year, and I know exactly how old I was...even though that was almost 40 years ago.
All very good points. Thanks for watching and for sharing!
I remember "inventing" a Star Wars RPG in my head one summer while staying at my grandma's house and mowing her lawn with a manual (non-powered) lawn mower often. I'd push the lawn mower and talk to myself to design the game. And then just a few years later, West End Games came out with their D6 version and I was crushed! 😀
I had Adventures in Fantasy by Arneson and Snider. Good game. The issue was that the three books were printed in Green, Blue and Red colored ink for the text. Trying to read the Red Book 📕 was akin to staring at the sun ☀️ for five minutes straight.
Oh wow! That would be cool to have those. So funny about the colors. Thanks for sharing!
From what I have been told they regretted doing that colored text.
Wasn’t the mocking version of TSR “They Sue Regularly” back in the day?
I had totally forgotten about that!
@@daddyrolleda1 :-)
D&D 3.0 was launched in 2000, 3.5 books began coming out in 2003.
Yes, I remember! I played both. Did I mistakenly say something to the contrary? I thought I mentioned that when the 30th Anniversary book came out in 2004 that 3.5 had just come out ("just" to me is within a year or two).
@@daddyrolleda1 I only said something because I worked in a Wizards of the Coast Retail store in a Shopping Mall when 3.0 came out. I was literally selling the book on Day 1's release.
@@VMSelvaggio Oh wow! Not sure if you've seen some of my other videos but I worked at an ad agency on the advertising for WotC right after the Hasbro takeover. The client sent me al the 3E core books as well as some Pokémon cards, Magic cards, Star Wars D20 book, and more. That got me back into playing D&D regularly after a short hiatus, as I started running a campaign for my co-workers to help them understand what D&D was all about.
@@daddyrolleda1 We had a really nice Store Discount (33% off) so I still have all my 3.5 books, because there is NO WAY I would ever be able to reacquire them for that price if I decided to get rid of them.
@@daddyrolleda1 You stated it correctly. You said D&D 3.5 came out in 2003, which is correct.
There is a series of ebooks called "Hawk and Moor" which I am reading these days. They also contain a lot of information, though I am still at the start and I haven't formed an opinion yet.
Interesting. Does Art of Dragon magazine have the Denis Beauvais Chess covers? I think those were the most famous and admired of the 80s, but maybe they didn't have permission to reprint?
@shadomain7918, I don’t have it to hand, but from memory either it or ‘The Art of Dungeons & Dragons’ has the Beauvais chess art.
Yes! "Art of Dragon Magazine" has three of the Beauvais chess covers featured as a two-page spread from issues #83, #86, and #89. Unfortunately, the cover for #86 runs right through the center of the book so it's almost impossible to see the entire thing.
Been playing since 1978:1979 when I was 10….i even collect the old modules, even have many of my original D&D stuff & books.
Still plsy Ad&d 2e
That is so cool! You started a few years before I did (1981 for me). I'm happy to hear you still have a lot of your original D&D books! Thanks for watching and for commenting!
I love that Nina Simone album! Also I preordered that Blackmoor book. I can’t wait to go through it.
That WotC book may be a combo reprint of D&D 0E and the history book written a few years ago by the author. I don't know if they sent the texts through their diversity and inclusion meat grinder though.
There is a very detailed synopsis of the content of this book on Amazon and it is available for pre-order -- and coming out really soon. I saw a video about it recently -- you'll just get a bunch of garbage about how Gary Gygax had topless art in OD&D, and the usual garbage about class limits for non-humans, yeah just ignore that garbage from WoTC.
Gygax was (and often for good reason) the more litigious of the two (Gygax/Arneson) 😊
This is my understanding as well!
Give me a good vinyl recommendation.
Just got my record-player, first one ever.
Need some recs.
Ooh, that's fantastic! Congrats! Just out of curiosity, what'd you get? (No judgments here - I'm not one of those folks who will go on and on about whether you got the right or wrong one; I don't really know that much about turntables. But I'm always curious to learn what people have).
I need a few more parameters to give you some vinyl recommendations. What kind of music do you normally listen to? Are you looking to stay in those genres, or are you looking to expand? How adventurous are you with music?
@@daddyrolleda1 I'm looking for "rare" music, stuff that's not on Spotify.
Other than that?
Favorite genres are:
Classical
Jazz
Progressive rock
Bluegrass
Folk rock
Folk
etc.
And yes, I wouldn't mind expanding from these genres.
Sorry for the delay here. I'm not really well-versed in Classical at all and I'm never quite sure what it available on Spotify or not.
For Jazz, and also a way to start branching out into jazz-funk and soul, you can check out the Jazz Dispensary label (a part of Craft Recordings): www.discogs.com/label/1376891-Jazz-Dispensary?page=1
They find old, out-of-print records/songs and make compilation albums with themes and usually distribute a new one for each Record Store Day and for RSD Black Friday. The majority of the songs, I've found, are not available on Spotify. So, they're "rare" from that standpoint, but they're not "old" if that's what you're looking for.
I am also a big fan of Ron Carter's "Empire Jazz" (jazz versions of the Empire Strikes Back soundtrack; I mentioned it in one of my videos): www.discogs.com/release/12532743-Ron-Carter-Empire-Jazz
There are also quite a few movie soundtracks that aren't available on Spotify, such as the original sound track to "The Dark Crystal" by Trevor Jones: www.discogs.com/release/10173809-Trevor-Jones-The-Dark-Crystal-Original-Motion-Picture-Soundtrack
I have quite a few Christmas albums that aren't on Spotify if that's also a thing you like, such as "Happy Christmas Beatle People!" (www.discogs.com/release/11255594-The-Beatles-Happy-Christmas-Beatle-People-The-Christmas-Records) or "God Rest Ye Merry Jazzmen" (www.discogs.com/release/9491568-Various-God-Rest-Ye-Merry-Jazzmen).
Then there are more novelty records, like "The D-O-D-G-E-R-S Song" by Danny Kaye: www.discogs.com/release/2642992-Danny-Kaye-D-O-D-G-E-R-S-Song (this is a 45 and I will warn you that the b-side hasn't really aged well).
I am sadly not super well-informed on Bluegrass, Folk, or Folk-Rock.
Hope this helps!
@@daddyrolleda1 This helps tremendously. Thank you!
I have watched a lot of history on both Dave and Gary influences on D&D. One thing that seems clear to me is Gary was much more active with rules building, writing, running a variety of games for friends and locals and then using feedback to revise the mechanics. Dave doesn't seem to be very prolific or organized, and a lot of his independent work is lacking creativity. Gary did borrow from a lot of sources, but he also is the reason we have the foundations of the game we play today, that D&D got published and grew into a number of rules sets, and that TSR as a business existed. Dave didn't play a role in most of those things. He was more of a creativity sounding board for Gary and they played together on occasion. Dave did innovate from time to time, but he wasn't writing or building anything that could be sold until after Gary had codified the game system. Even though heroes being "role-played" and dungeon crawling was first done by Dave Arneson in his chainmail variant, roleplaying key characters and using a GM was already a part of the wargaming community at the time, so fantasy versions of this is the seeds for D&D and what Dave did. Gary took this idea so much further.
Russisn River Brewing Co? Wait, are you in Sonoma County? O.o I grew up in Santa Rosa.
Oh, very cool! My wife used to work in Santa Rosa for a while, but while I was born up in the Bay Area (Marin County), I live in Southern California now. If you see my previous video on the Warlock game and the Caltech Gamer Crew, you'll see some pictures of Caltech in Pasadena which is just a few blocks from where I live!
I visited Russian River Brewing Co. along with Bear Republic and also a few wineries a while ago with a group of friends for my 40th birthday!
SoCal stuff. Good videos.
Cool your wife worked in Santa Rosa. It's a nice town. I was born in Marin county too at Marin County General. Trippy man.
It's a small world after all. Cheers!
I don't often meet folks from there! I'm not sure how many hospitals there were so I don't recall exactly what hospital I was born at, but we lived in San Rafael and my grandma lived in Mill Valley. Cheers!
Regarding Lorraine Williams, my understanding is that her approach to business was very much of a particular loyalty based flavor. If you were 'loyal', didn't argue against her, and and toed her company line she would go to extreme lengths to take care of you. If you were someone she saw as disloyal to her, or worse a direct enemy, or even just less then fully supportive of the directions she wanted the properties of the company to go she would destroy you to the best of her abilities. The main issues seem to always come from the latter part of that including most of the creative staff of TSR and it's core fanbase demographic.
1:11:51 I wonder if Luke ever walks in a room and goes, 'I'm Luke Guygax Jedi Knight in friend of Captain Solo' 🙂.
A warning to anyone who wants to buy "Fifty Years of D&D." It's an academic book, so the content is quite dry. There are a lot of footnotes that will lead you to sources that you might find to be a better read. I found it to be not a great source by itself for learning about the history of the hobby.
When did you get to read it. I didn’t think it was out yet?
Or are you talking about the one by Premeet Sighu?
@@agilemonk6305 that one, from MIT Press. I got it about a month ago.
I've only read the introduction and Zach & Tony's chapter so far. I know the introduction said it worked best to read it in order, but there are certain topics I'm more interested in diving into right away. I've also been making notes of original sources I might want to explore, as you point out.
Yeah -- basically a collection of essays book. Best book by far and you only need two books/series which are: 1) Playing at the World by Jon Peterson and 2) Shannon Applecline's Designer's and Dragons series, and on the art side I definitely agree with Martin -- the Art and Arcana books is fantastic!! The Shadows over Blackmoor I'd also argue is definitely worth picking up.
34:57 it's just like talking about former co-workers. some people, still have an ax to grind even 20 years later depending how they got along at a company or retreated by someone or the company. You talk about one coworker, and he's the greatest, you talk about another coworker and you want nothing to do with the person 🙂.
All the TSR Content is great but what about the other companies?
I tend to focus on TSR because that's the stuff I had access to as a kid (my local shops didn't really carry other publishers) and consequently it's the stuff I actually own in physical copies and what I know the most about. Nothing against the other companies, but as I mentioned when I briefly discussed Tunnels & Trolls in my video on 1975 RPGs - I sometimes feel a little disingenuous talking about those games because I know there are folks out there who are much more knowledgeable and passionate about them than I am. Hope that makes sense. Appreciate you watching and commenting!
Designer's & Dragons - by Shannon Applecline - 5 Books of complete TTRPG goodness (although the Platinum Edition I don't think was ever printed -- only available as PDF).
Shannon will probably come out with a 2010 book soon. Really looking forward to it.
This is what moms are for 🙂.
1
the urge people have to create drama and stress without caring how it impacts others is an unfortunate issue with all things not just this hobby. Like what you like, dont put others down because of their opinion as long as it is not harmful towards others. GO AND PLAY!!! get over yourselves.
Real Gamers Gonna Game!
I will game with anyone - Griff
dude I like your videos
I hope they were shorter
my attention span dies at 20 min
Firstly, thank you for watching and commenting, and for your support of the channel. I really appreciate it.
And, thanks for your comment. I totally get that my videos aren't for everyone, as they are very long and kind of "rambling" (I tell people they're "conversational" but I think that's just a nice way of saying that I ramble). I understand if you don't watch them all in one go, or if you lose interested after a bit. I appreciate whatever time and attention you can give.
Thank you!
Another interesting video destroyed by 30-40 second Ads. Another example of creator's helping youtube become a premium only service. Bye.