You forgot something, Helluva Boss is canon and part of the same universe, and the Cherubs killed a dude and were Banished from heaven. So angels also can't kill humans.
Gonna be honest here If your tv show has required reading outside of where the TV show is being released it's not as canon as people believe Just like the pilot, any live streams, etc Its not in the shows proper so I don't take that as specific canon
It sounds like we're discussing whether paratext is necessary to consider when analyzing a piece of media. Some say yes, and others say no. I'm not saying, "everyone is right," but rather that these are two very different kinds of analysis that yield different insights.
See i took that as a nod tawrds Sovereign citizen ideology and how detached from reality it is. Medrano is constantly on line. She must know a thing or two about them and is making fun of them in a throw away line. But i could be wrong!
Honestly! I've been thinking a lot about Emily, lately, and specifically about the fact that she doesn't have a good mentor. Angel has Husk, Vaggie has Carmilla, Charlie has Lucifer, Alastor, and Rosie, but Emily doesn't have anyone. I've got a lot of questions. I'm reminded of an idea coined by Huey Newton, revolutionary suicide, but I haven't put the pieces together yet. I'm trying to finish my Charlie script before I jump into Emily, but it's so tempting!
@@chloeeastwood6696 if angels and demons get re-tested when they die (like sir pentious did) maybe Adam will reappear in hell and that would just crack the whole system... Maybe... Or maybe he'll just stay dead. Who knows? Sorry I digress too much... But if all of that were possible... Could Emily just kill herself to go to hell and help Charlie? 😱
I don’t know if any one will consider this for shadowing but it really interesting on rewatch. In episode five charlie contacts her father looking for a meeting with angles more important and powerful than Adam. Later in the episode Lucifer confirms he is still considered and angle and has the power of one. And then we learn he still thinks like one in his conversation with Charlie. The important line being “in your needy hour there’s no substitute for pur angelic power who just happens to also be your blood.” I don’t know how intentional this was but i think this one line will become way more interesting in the future episodes. It already is interesting. Charlie doesn’t realize but in episode five she is talking to an angle more important and powerful than adam he is demonstrating Sera’s mindset. They are both skeptical this redemption thing can work. They are both okay with the current situation because change is hard and may not help. Both Sera and Lucifer agreed to the exterminations. Charlie does not get the hint. Lucifer’s attitude tawrd Charlie’s idea is a hind at what Charlie will face next episode. The attitude she will likely face in season two.
100%! You also see this in the first song and the last. Charlie sings, "I'll change their minds and touch their hearts (or whatever angels have)." Then Lucifer sings, in the same melody, "you've changed my mind and touched their hearts, found the good in souls gone bad..." He is the first angle she has to convince, and the fact that she did convince him means angels can be convinced. Though, there are three things making this easier for her. 1) she doesn't convince him with logos or pathos but with ethos. He changes his mind when she says she needs to save her people and he sees her as a capable protector of demons. 2) he has the advantage of being already fallen and not fearing the consequences of changing his mind. 3) her work is an extension of his, so he's primed to agree with her. So, he's the easy convert, but still she converted him and that's HUGE.
@@chloeeastwood6696 yeah that parallel was totally intentional and Charlie did have to convince her father at some point. I do hope in the next season they draw attention to the fact charlie’s first success was her girl friend. She convinced an angle (a low ranking one) that soles can change and she convinced an angle that this plan is worth fighting for. Obviously the first thing to address is the drama of the reveal. And then i think charlie get distracted by the immediate danger but i think after the rebuild charlie will think and realize what convincing Vaggie means for her mission. It is unclear exactly how low ranking she is but Vaggie could be a interesting spokesperson in heaven. And it would be an opportunity to explore the politics of heaven.
@@chloeeastwood6696small detail but since i brought up Vaggie. When lute and Adam are casting her down from heaven they take her helo. I do not know what significance or symbolism the helo’s will end up having but the visuals are setting up something. Sorry for dumping all over your comments i am just lacking people in my life to talk to about this show. I got excited.
Oh, the halos are such a cool image! I noticed in the final fight that Lucifer KIND OF has one--his snake pops up and floats over his horns in a very halo adjacent way. And no worries about chatting! It's a very fun show. I got very excited when people started sharing their thoughts, too! That's the best part of sharing: connecting!
@@chloeeastwood6696 if you are going to make an arc about Charlie’s character development consider mentioning that vaggie was the first person she won over. It is a very easy to miss point but i think it may end up relevant in future seasons.
I think it's like, "if Hell is forever and nothing changes when people improve, then Heaven isn't about being a reward for being good." That's what we say but it's not the truth. It's a lie.
Seeing as the elder angels were the ones who did the creation, it calls into question of where is god? Why didn’t god create everything in the hazbin/hellva universe? Perhaps he doesn’t even know what the angels are doing, all the rules in place… only casting judgment when a person dies….
I *REALLY* hope nothing bad happens to Emily in future seasons of Hazbin Hotel, and if she does end up becoming a Fallen Angel, she’s given asylum in the Hazbin Hotel by Charlie and co..
I have a question after listening to your arguments, if we assume that to go to heaven you must obey god's plan then what would the death of Sir Pentious mean for you ? Because he died when trying to save his friends and got sent to heaven, even if from what i know he didn't become some obedian soul while doing so. Could we consider that God saw him and gave him grace as he is pretty easy to manipulate ? Or perhaps there is something more about the system that we don't know about. I'm really interested to hear your opinion on this as i totally agree with heaven and hell being about obedience and disobedience.
That's such a hard question because it does feel like an outlier to me. We do know that Pentious cares a LOT about what others think of him. In episode 2, he tries to join the Vs because he cares what they think. In episode 3, he is pleased to win over the other residents' favor. In episode 6, he is so shy around Cherri because her opinion matters, too. IF we go with obedience/disobedience, then we can point to this being a way of exerting control; people who care what others think tend to fall in line. But that's a BIG if, and I'm just spit balling. I don't know for sure, and my uncertainty is part of why this didn't end up in the video. What do you think?
@@chloeeastwood6696 I do agree that it would be easy for Pentious to fall in line and be obedien but since he only went to heaven after dying protecting his friends, I think there might be two ways to go to heaven if we take the obedience system. One, simply obey gods plan while alive. Or two die like the martyr (which could be pentious case, he died to save his friend who were the people he believe in just like a martyr dies for their fate) while in hell. This would have more conditions like being willing to be reshaped in an obedien soul, which as you said suits Pentious as he cares about what others think. I thought of that because Pentious death made me think of the Christ dead : Just like Jesus, Pentious basically died as a martyr and was brought back to life and went to heaven. But I may be reading too much in his redemption, it would be an interesting metaphor though.
No no I like where this is going. It also reminds me of Alastor's line in the finale, "Great Alastor, altruist, died for his friends--sorry to disappoint; that is NOT where this ends." It sets them up as character foils.
See what i took to be a criticle line in the song but is way less obvious is Sera’s telling emily. “Not everything is spelled in ink.” And i think it may be relevant. At several point our attention is drawn to the exact language or terms and conditions of contracts. I will not name them all but in hell is for ver Adam shows Charlie a signed document showing that heaven is bound by contracts too. Adam wrote down in ink three things that could get someone into heaven. And then the court of heaven treats that as legitimate. Sir pentious has not done those three things, at least since he checked into the hotel. Combined with dying for his friends he was worthy. Maybe no kne has made it to heaven because before the conditions of redemption were not written in ink. Now they are and Sir Pentious was the first to meet the conditions since. I don’t know.
@@chloeeastwood6696 Oh geeze, I just noticed that! I completely forgot that the beginning of the series set Pentious as Alastor's rival, because it was so humorously one-sided. The season spent the whole time mocking the idea of their rivalry, and then ends on re-affirming it. I wonder if its too tinfoil hat to consider a real and possibly even serious rematch between those two at some point.
How crazy that would get you sent to hell is extending grace, the stated basis of redemption by many Christian churches - they are all sinners and it is only grace that gets people into heaven
I think it's considered worth going to hell for because both examples happen after death, supposedly after God already judged the souls. It's more considered an action against him than people going to church, which would be considered just actions in the people's lifetime to be worth judging as they try to get on the "right track" or sum
I've noticed that, too, as I continue to turn over this puzzle in my mind. I'm still editing everything together, but i have an upcoming video (Charlie pt 2) that really delves into this. Ugh, it's so exciting to me when people are on my wavelength. :)
You forgot something, Helluva Boss is canon and part of the same universe, and the Cherubs killed a dude and were Banished from heaven. So angels also can't kill humans.
Ooh, good point!
Gonna be honest here
If your tv show has required reading outside of where the TV show is being released it's not as canon as people believe
Just like the pilot, any live streams, etc
Its not in the shows proper so I don't take that as specific canon
@@MylingCyrus They're canonically in the same universe, so no, you're wrong, the creator herself said so.
It sounds like we're discussing whether paratext is necessary to consider when analyzing a piece of media. Some say yes, and others say no. I'm not saying, "everyone is right," but rather that these are two very different kinds of analysis that yield different insights.
Makes them pretty hypocritical allowing the extermination of Sinner demons who used to be humans, right?
This is the same show that has the line “Bank accounts are a scam created by the shadow government”
I love the eggs, but I would be hard pressed to write an essay on them!
@@chloeeastwood6696 I know I’m just saying this is a lot of thinking for a show that has some pretty brainless speech.
I suppose you could say there's a distinction between smart characters and smart writing. The egg bois aren't smart, but the show's writing is.
@@chloeeastwood6696 true
See i took that as a nod tawrds Sovereign citizen ideology and how detached from reality it is.
Medrano is constantly on line. She must know a thing or two about them and is making fun of them in a throw away line.
But i could be wrong!
This is why I think Emily is in a serious danger of falling to hell too...
Honestly! I've been thinking a lot about Emily, lately, and specifically about the fact that she doesn't have a good mentor. Angel has Husk, Vaggie has Carmilla, Charlie has Lucifer, Alastor, and Rosie, but Emily doesn't have anyone. I've got a lot of questions. I'm reminded of an idea coined by Huey Newton, revolutionary suicide, but I haven't put the pieces together yet. I'm trying to finish my Charlie script before I jump into Emily, but it's so tempting!
@@chloeeastwood6696 if angels and demons get re-tested when they die (like sir pentious did) maybe Adam will reappear in hell and that would just crack the whole system... Maybe... Or maybe he'll just stay dead. Who knows? Sorry I digress too much... But if all of that were possible... Could Emily just kill herself to go to hell and help Charlie? 😱
@KatherinaBathory omg there was discourse on this first bit! As for the second, I hope not!
I don’t know if any one will consider this for shadowing but it really interesting on rewatch. In episode five charlie contacts her father looking for a meeting with angles more important and powerful than Adam.
Later in the episode Lucifer confirms he is still considered and angle and has the power of one. And then we learn he still thinks like one in his conversation with Charlie. The important line being “in your needy hour there’s no substitute for pur angelic power who just happens to also be your blood.”
I don’t know how intentional this was but i think this one line will become way more interesting in the future episodes. It already is interesting.
Charlie doesn’t realize but in episode five she is talking to an angle more important and powerful than adam he is demonstrating Sera’s mindset. They are both skeptical this redemption thing can work. They are both okay with the current situation because change is hard and may not help. Both Sera and Lucifer agreed to the exterminations.
Charlie does not get the hint. Lucifer’s attitude tawrd Charlie’s idea is a hind at what Charlie will face next episode. The attitude she will likely face in season two.
100%! You also see this in the first song and the last. Charlie sings, "I'll change their minds and touch their hearts (or whatever angels have)." Then Lucifer sings, in the same melody, "you've changed my mind and touched their hearts, found the good in souls gone bad..." He is the first angle she has to convince, and the fact that she did convince him means angels can be convinced. Though, there are three things making this easier for her. 1) she doesn't convince him with logos or pathos but with ethos. He changes his mind when she says she needs to save her people and he sees her as a capable protector of demons. 2) he has the advantage of being already fallen and not fearing the consequences of changing his mind. 3) her work is an extension of his, so he's primed to agree with her. So, he's the easy convert, but still she converted him and that's HUGE.
@@chloeeastwood6696 yeah that parallel was totally intentional and Charlie did have to convince her father at some point.
I do hope in the next season they draw attention to the fact charlie’s first success was her girl friend. She convinced an angle (a low ranking one) that soles can change and she convinced an angle that this plan is worth fighting for.
Obviously the first thing to address is the drama of the reveal. And then i think charlie get distracted by the immediate danger but i think after the rebuild charlie will think and realize what convincing Vaggie means for her mission.
It is unclear exactly how low ranking she is but Vaggie could be a interesting spokesperson in heaven. And it would be an opportunity to explore the politics of heaven.
@@chloeeastwood6696small detail but since i brought up Vaggie. When lute and Adam are casting her down from heaven they take her helo. I do not know what significance or symbolism the helo’s will end up having but the visuals are setting up something.
Sorry for dumping all over your comments i am just lacking people in my life to talk to about this show. I got excited.
Oh, the halos are such a cool image! I noticed in the final fight that Lucifer KIND OF has one--his snake pops up and floats over his horns in a very halo adjacent way.
And no worries about chatting! It's a very fun show. I got very excited when people started sharing their thoughts, too! That's the best part of sharing: connecting!
@@chloeeastwood6696 if you are going to make an arc about Charlie’s character development consider mentioning that vaggie was the first person she won over. It is a very easy to miss point but i think it may end up relevant in future seasons.
And there's the line "if hell is forever then heaven must be a lie" I don't really know what that means
I think it's like, "if Hell is forever and nothing changes when people improve, then Heaven isn't about being a reward for being good." That's what we say but it's not the truth. It's a lie.
Seeing as the elder angels were the ones who did the creation, it calls into question of where is god? Why didn’t god create everything in the hazbin/hellva universe? Perhaps he doesn’t even know what the angels are doing, all the rules in place… only casting judgment when a person dies….
Right, like he's just some guy who doesn't know what's going on? Haha!
I think vivian has said that god wasnt going to apear in hazbin
i hope god's on charlie's side
Me too!
If god was in the show then he would be unbeatable which is unfair and viv also confirmed that god wont be in the show
Omg I love the idea of atheist heaven and atheist hell.
I *REALLY* hope nothing bad happens to Emily in future seasons of Hazbin Hotel, and if she does end up becoming a Fallen Angel, she’s given asylum in the Hazbin Hotel by Charlie and co..
Me too! I love her so much. I've actually got a script in progress on that exact topic!
God dang you, Lucifer!
I have a question after listening to your arguments, if we assume that to go to heaven you must obey god's plan then what would the death of Sir Pentious mean for you ? Because he died when trying to save his friends and got sent to heaven, even if from what i know he didn't become some obedian soul while doing so. Could we consider that God saw him and gave him grace as he is pretty easy to manipulate ? Or perhaps there is something more about the system that we don't know about. I'm really interested to hear your opinion on this as i totally agree with heaven and hell being about obedience and disobedience.
That's such a hard question because it does feel like an outlier to me. We do know that Pentious cares a LOT about what others think of him. In episode 2, he tries to join the Vs because he cares what they think. In episode 3, he is pleased to win over the other residents' favor. In episode 6, he is so shy around Cherri because her opinion matters, too. IF we go with obedience/disobedience, then we can point to this being a way of exerting control; people who care what others think tend to fall in line. But that's a BIG if, and I'm just spit balling. I don't know for sure, and my uncertainty is part of why this didn't end up in the video. What do you think?
@@chloeeastwood6696 I do agree that it would be easy for Pentious to fall in line and be obedien but since he only went to heaven after dying protecting his friends, I think there might be two ways to go to heaven if we take the obedience system. One, simply obey gods plan while alive. Or two die like the martyr (which could be pentious case, he died to save his friend who were the people he believe in just like a martyr dies for their fate) while in hell. This would have more conditions like being willing to be reshaped in an obedien soul, which as you said suits Pentious as he cares about what others think. I thought of that because Pentious death made me think of the Christ dead : Just like Jesus, Pentious basically died as a martyr and was brought back to life and went to heaven. But I may be reading too much in his redemption, it would be an interesting metaphor though.
No no I like where this is going. It also reminds me of Alastor's line in the finale, "Great Alastor, altruist, died for his friends--sorry to disappoint; that is NOT where this ends." It sets them up as character foils.
See what i took to be a criticle line in the song but is way less obvious is Sera’s telling emily. “Not everything is spelled in ink.” And i think it may be relevant.
At several point our attention is drawn to the exact language or terms and conditions of contracts. I will not name them all but in hell is for ver Adam shows Charlie a signed document showing that heaven is bound by contracts too.
Adam wrote down in ink three things that could get someone into heaven. And then the court of heaven treats that as legitimate.
Sir pentious has not done those three things, at least since he checked into the hotel. Combined with dying for his friends he was worthy.
Maybe no kne has made it to heaven because before the conditions of redemption were not written in ink. Now they are and Sir Pentious was the first to meet the conditions since.
I don’t know.
@@chloeeastwood6696 Oh geeze, I just noticed that! I completely forgot that the beginning of the series set Pentious as Alastor's rival, because it was so humorously one-sided. The season spent the whole time mocking the idea of their rivalry, and then ends on re-affirming it. I wonder if its too tinfoil hat to consider a real and possibly even serious rematch between those two at some point.
How crazy that would get you sent to hell is extending grace, the stated basis of redemption by many Christian churches - they are all sinners and it is only grace that gets people into heaven
I think I'm picking up what you're putting down. It's a really interesting concept to think about. Who gets to set and make exceptions to the rules?
I think it's considered worth going to hell for because both examples happen after death, supposedly after God already judged the souls. It's more considered an action against him than people going to church, which would be considered just actions in the people's lifetime to be worth judging as they try to get on the "right track" or sum
I've noticed that, too, as I continue to turn over this puzzle in my mind. I'm still editing everything together, but i have an upcoming video (Charlie pt 2) that really delves into this. Ugh, it's so exciting to me when people are on my wavelength. :)