Should Natural Lifters Listen To Steroid Users?
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
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00:00 Geoff Says Hello
00:22 1 Enhancement Changes The Training Process and Thus Advice
03:28 2 Genetics=Steroids, Essentially?
07:53 3 Downplaying The Impact Of Steroids
09:36 4 Blackpilling
10:00 5 Historical Trends
10:53 Reasons to Follow Enhanced Lifters
14:08 What Really Matters
atlaspowershrugged: Exercise Scientist Disregards Basic Scientific Principles to Blackpill Natties About Genetics
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• Natty Vs. Enhanced, Jo...
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Remember, enhanced lifters may be enhanced, but they are still _lifters_ ...which means they are indeed worthy of some respect. I think on *average* natural lifters will be best off listening to other naturals, but there are some excellent content creators who aren't lifetime natural. Don't dismiss someone because their pharmalogical status doesn't match your own. Factors like honesty, intelligence, education, communication skills, track record and empathy are far more important when choosing who to listen to than if they are natural or not.
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The entire video is spot on
No. There is no point in listening to anyone on drugs because you cannot tell if their advice is from drugs or their claimed workout. Additionally, they have no real clue where their gains came from. Third, they probably do less or no experimenting on what works in terms of exercise for gains, because the drugs overwhelms the response.
This is why I unsubscribed to you.
@user-cj6te2oj4m no it's not
To be fair i don't listen to anyone other than Rich Piana. Tomorrow 8 hour arm day.
Left arm or right?
@@Horus-LupercalMorning 8h left medial tricep head, followed by 8h mid-day 8h radial tricep head, concluding with evening long head workout (which you guessed takes 8 hours).
Tomorrow’s right triceps. Gotta take some coke, jack3d and some m3th.
Oops, busted!!
@@schroederluck7984 Heaving a little cookie on the way to the gym, which isn't counted as a meal.
Right, babe?
I love that you quietly put Mike O'Hearn on the natural side where he rightfully belongs, no doubt about it.
The nattiest of them all.
😂😂😂😂
Some of his advice are good though.
It's natural for him to use.
Need more duck eggs
I feel like the one enhanced lifter naturals can listen to is John Meadows. His plans, and exercise choices worked extremely well for all forms of lifter.
RIP to the legend❤🔥
And Dr Mike. He's science based
Yes! Rip mountaindog1!
@@stevend481 soyience based you say? Epic!!!
@@CrazyChickenFarmer PHD
I think enhanced lifters can give great advice, especially if they were natty for a large period of their training career, if they have a firm understanding of the mechanics of training properly, & have a lot of practical experience & a genuine desire to help people. John Meadows is one great example. Growing up, I was inspired by those guys in the magazines, but thankfully decided to never use any PED’s because I value my health & made some incredible progress naturally, which I’ve always been proud of. I do believe though that natural lifters with real experience personally and professionally will generally give the best overall training advice though. 💪
Great video Geof, & thx for the shoutout in the thumbnail! 💪
Fully agree
That's my take on it as well
Wesley vissers gives awesome advice, simple and effective
The strength focused guys is pretty spot on, as training for strength is pretty cut and dry and not complicated at all. The biggest differences would be in the peaking (for competitors), as the geared guys peak their vitamins too.
i think it is the opposite in terms of systems of progression, it is much more complicated and is much more of a percentages game.i think size became such an easy goal when you take modern steriods that blow you up pretty quickly
@@beburs size for enhanced guys yea. For us natties, getting stronger is a much less complex pursuit than gaining size in an aesthetic way, and why the enhanced guys passing along strength principles are generally more applicable universally.
Completely agree. I will progressively overload my Flinstones vitamins over the course of my meso. At my peak im taking up to 10 per day.
@@freakied0550For sure! As far as strength training goes, it really doesn’t appear like anyone is reinventing the wheel, so to speak. It’s the same principles used over and over for gaining strength whether we realize it or not. Progressive loading, baby 💪 😎
Time to sub again to Larry Wheels
Short answer: no
Long answer “they were so willing to smash their health up to slake their body dysmorphia or win admiration, that they are probably delusional in other ways too”
Yeah, RP has been off-target a couple of times lately. I appreciate your sobering perspective.
With what?
golden rules for natty lifting:
1: dont listen to roidtrannys
2: good programming
3: go hard or go home
3. Go “ hard “ or “ to absolute failure “ on conventional deadlifts and barbell squats with more than 3 plates bro I will be waiting for you at the hospital
That is sweet, and you are right. If only there were alternative exercises for legs … I hope someone invents them one day
I listen to some steroid users for motivation (tom platz would be an example) but i simply cannot take any training advice seriously from roiders as there is no way to determine if they would have a good physique without steroids
Yeah Tom Platz is one of the best speakers out of all the bodybuilders out there
Bromley is a steroid user and his information is amazing. Maybe consider varying outside of bodybuilding in your research.
If you look good on steroids you would still.look good without. Just a bit smaller.
Sam shethar is unnatural and has one of the best channels out of everyone in this circle in terms of knowledge. I think you should change your view point.
@@AlexanderRodriguez-lm1qw He's a powerlifter though. Strength principles are still not that different for enhanced guys. Hypertrophy is way different. Guys on PEDs just grow doing pump & fluff at like 6 RIR.
13:52 Re: Mike Israetel... I won't lie, I'm a bit disillusioned with him at this point. A few years ago, I tried one of RP's hypertrophy templates. The volume ramped up so high and so quickly that I overreached within like, 2 weeks, because surprise, surprise... soreness isn't a good yardstick for determining how beat up your body is (especially with regards to your CNS). Then, years later, I saw Mike's training clips, and I witnessed what the RP crew considers to be "0 RIR." Everything clicked for me; they simply don't grind on any of their reps. How could their volume recommendations be useful to anyone who pushes to true muscular failure?
I respect RP's grind (no pun intended) and production quality, but for the most part, I don't value their training advice anymore.
Did the hypertrophy template ask for training sets to failure? From what I’ve heard so far from Dr. Mike is that it’s better to train near failure, around 3 RIR or 2 RIR, can’t recall the exact number. Point is training to failure isn’t very helpful unless you just do sets to failure on isolation exercises for smaller muscles like biceps. Did the template include compound movements like squats, leg press, etc. to failure?
yeah, their sets usually end before they have to grind. if you train to a legitimate rir 2 or less on your sets then it will fuck you up. for me my average sets per muscle group per week is like, 10-12 at that intensity level,only going higher the week before i deload. any higher and i either get hurt or my cns shits itself.
@@Ty-oe4dr Same here. I push my sets hard, but I use waaaay less volume than RP recommends
Mike is funny and knowledgeable but he is a juicer. Offering advice on healthy lifestyles while doing something unhealthy is just a bit shite. Dude should go see a therapist and learn to be happy with what he can attain natty.
@@billking8843
I have zero respect for any steroid users. Especially if they cant be honest..I have 1000% more respect for the natty with 17 in arms over the fake with 22 inch arms. The fake only exists as long as he can afford the drugs.
Honestly, I think the best natural physiques look better than the massive IFBB pros on ridiculous amounts of steroids. More mass =/= better aesthetics imo.
Classic GVS vid. Friday blessings 🙏😄😄
10/10 video congratulations. Very well done.
I'm over from 'Carved Outta Stone' channel after your interview on there some time back. Enjoying your frank and informative channel. What you said about the Silver Era hit the nail on the head. Probably why there was the rise of the Hardgainer magazine to deal with training madness promulgated by the magazines.
Some of the best content in the game
the best video i have seen on the matter
Thank you for the shoutout buddy! I appreciate the kind words!
Solid !
Thank you very much for your insideful.from Myanmar.
Good advice, same experiences.
Like you said in the VideoGVS some enhanced lifters have good advice on training in my experience, but I definitely lean more toward a natural advice kind of pick between the two and what makes sense and what I like. there is some enhanced the thirst that have given pretty good training advice what years of experience. Great video.
Need more chest supported db row vids. My favorite back accessory!!!
7:53 Reminds me of Mark Bell, a guy with a considerable online following who actually said "I don't get why steroids are illegal, they don't make much difference" in a collaboration with Alan Thrall. As GVS said, why would he even be on the drugs if they were so ineffective. Hearing that excuse didn't sit well with me.
Yeah his arms would be 4 inches smaller.
Shout out to Alberto Nunez and Eric Helms. Natty OGs and still going at it!!
i've been lifting for 2.5 years i haven't heard a single true, useful concept from non natty lifters that i haven't heard before by a natural lifter, often in a much more complete and articulate way. So for me enhahnced lifters are just great physiques to look at mainly and maybe they're somewhat useful to confirm what i've already learnt from natties.
You're listening to the wrong ones.
WHAT ARE THE RIGHT ONES MATE
WHY DO PEOPLE BUST A NUT IN THEIR RUSH TO CONTRADICT AND YET OFFER NO COMPELLING COUNTERARGUMENTS OR EXAMPLES
Love that SuperNatty in the middle)
Great video
Haven't watched the video yet, just dropping engagement for the cracked out look in the thumbnail.
Very interesting point about HIT being a thing post the inception PEDs. One of the more important points may be the one about the genetics copout. Thanks for the video, Geoff! Love the topic 💪
One set per bodypart was Eugene Sandows routine but he did it everyday. But yeah the one set every week or every two weeks crap didnt come until steroids.
Talk about lengthened partials and “stretch mediated hypertrophy”
Actin & myosin genes man
Great video brother❤
You are Revival Fitness are speaking the truth.
Dude, didn't realise your youtube chanel is ongoing 😂, keep it up, if you're available, we can meet up in Shenzhen to do some workout 🥂
Those two chinese dudes behind you in the first clip are absolutely going for it 😂. Gotta respect the grind 💪
100% agree with this. Natural lifters can for sure enjoy watching enhanced bodybuilders for entertainment purposes, but should absolutely not listen to them from actual lifting advice lol. Everytime i see a 300lbs bodybuilder pop up on my instagram feed and see him workout i can only think “holy shit this wouldnt do anything for a natural lifter”. Insane how much steroids work
I'm 250lbs natural (check profile pic) , arms closing in on 20 inches, and for the majority of my 10 year lifting journey, I've only ever listened and took advice from PED users. Had no problem making gains. Just make sure your diet is good - the most important part.
@n7Andy I am 320lbs, arms just over 20", completely natural. I can confirm, it can be done, dont need genetics or anything. Just experience and discipline.
The thing about tendons is why I've never been tempted by PEDs. I have so little faith in my genetics, I just don't think mine would be able to hold up with enhanced muscle growth.
"its a way to cope with not trying" beautify said
ima big boy getting into lifting heavy and just trying to get better day by day
That thumbnail! 😂
Algorithm 🙌
Basketball & lifting= you ll get all you desire 💪💪
Thoughts on chest supported rows? I dont like them lol. Something about them doesnt seem to engage my back. Like when doing bent over bi lateral dumbell rows i feel my whole back just swell with good tension throigh eccentric and concentric
I'm enhanced but I still watch your channel and get a lot of great advice because I want to keep growing, I don't want to get sub-optimal results.
I usually ignore diet advice from enhanced sources.
02:20 I think you mean Anabolic Aliens
I’ve made a lot of gains following John Meadows programs and programming philosophy, Scott Stevenson’s Fortitude Training and Jim Wendler’s 531. All of my best results have come from enhanced lifters, but these are guys that have been in the trenches and trained a lot of people, Natural and enhanced. As a natural Bodybuilder, you just have to play with Training variables and find what works best for you.
6:50 omg u changed so muchhh
2:16 yesssssssssssssss
I think that’s just how flex wheeler and other Olympia competitors would train far away from failure really close to a show to not get injured. I don’t think that’s how they put that size on.
Just caught it as soon as it uploaded, nice
We waz kingz n shiii cuuhhh
John Meadows provided quality advice for any athlete.
“They are less than useless” Oof, that burns…So true though.
I am going to say agree 50-50. You should hear everybody with the caveat that every person is different and what works for you, does not for me necessarily. But you are right that a few people are willing to take time to learn what works for them and what does not. I am almost 47 years now and I wish I learned when I was 14 years old (I started lifting weights at that time at home) what I know today by listening and seeing (by my time, it was only magazines) but must importantly, listening to my body. I wish learned that sooner, but I still have time and I am doing the best I can.
I was natural for 4 years. Then started taking some basic stuff at low doses a few times a year, which slowly evolved into taking more extreme stuff nearly year round. I haven't taken anything, at all, since 2014, though. At that time, it was 400mg test cypionate each week.
Here's what most people refuse to believe when I am just honest with them;
I got better results when I started taking gear for obvious reasons. At the peak of my usage, my gains were only a bit better than when I was only taking low levels of test - the point of diminishing returns is insane. After going off cycle for a few years and just learning more about effective training, I saw that my results without gear were starting to match my previous results with gear - there was much less room for error, though, and gains came more slowly. Later, when I started taking 200mg and then eventually 400mg of test, along with proper training, I hit lifetime PR's on all my lifts within just a few months. I never exceeded 400mg of test because the results were not twice as good as they were with 200mg and I remembered what I had learned about diminishing returns. I have now been drug free for 10 years, and the only thing that keeps me from making gains is consistency. I tend to care more about spending time with my wife and children, pursuing my other hobbies, etc. However, it is incredible just how predictable results will be when I do start training consistently, simply because I have figured out what "actually" works optimally, for me. At this point, I am not in the best shape of my life, but then again I have only been back to training consistently for a few months and I am already bigger and stronger than most of the guys at the local gym who are currently using gear.
Just my two cents.
Someone who sees results as a natural has demonstrated that they know what they are doing.
Someone who sees results while on gear hasn't demonstrated anything, conclusively, other than that gear works.
I think the problem with not having a routine and being consistent is you never really get back to the routine. The worse thing people can do is put working out on the back burner. I have 2 kids and I get my workouts done in the morning so as to never affect family time
I respect your honesty, mate. Most guys who have touched gear will never admit that the drugs did a lot of work for them.
Once you take steroids it's stays in your blood stream and effects your potential for growth. Even off cycle steroid users have more growth benefits
Some good points, but IFBB pros are taking way more than you at your peak PED usage. The point of diminishing returns makes sense if you are willing to stop at 400 and at 2-3 coumpaunds at a time.
I pretty much consider anyone’s achievement on roids as similar to a hackers achievement in multiplayer online video games. Sure you work hard with your wall hacks but you still have hacks it’s not comparable to raw natural input
✨
New to your channel. Great video. Will be watching from now on.
Welcome aboard!
Completely agree with your point about naturals knowing their stuff, but enhanced guys not necessarily knowing their stuff. When I was a senior in highschool, this bodybuilder from my town sold me a 6 DAY PER WEEK program with roughly 10-12 exercises per session and at least 4 sets per exercise, sometimes upwards of 10. Like one of the leg days had me doing 4x12 bulgarians, followed by 10 sets of 3 paused box squats, and then EIGHT more exercises after that. I had no idea how bad this program truly was at the time, and looking back on it with the knowledge I have now, it's no wonder I had such terrible progress back then.
6 days a week isn't a bad option but yea that much volume....yikes.
Mike o' Hearn kind of sneaky in the thumbnail
05:23 the massivus tricepticon sweepozoid gene ez answer
Im finding that i am intuitively putting in fairly optimal training, i usually like to look at diferent opinions fto keep me from bejng bored
The best thing you can do is listen both and develop a criticist point of view and think what is best for you
This could very well be the case for everyone ☝️
You already made a video like this, Geoff. No wonder your channel growth has slowed down so much.
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. I was like “I feel as if I’ve already watched a video of his talking about listening to knowledge from PED users”.
Watching enhanced lifters helped me train very intensely even though I knew I wasn’t going to get big as them I still tried
I think "squeal some alleles" should become someone's catchphrase.
👍👍👍
Slow eccentric... Is that to Dr. No front squats? 😂😂😂
I like RP hypertrophy a lot but im very iffy on how frequent they program deloads in their app (every 6 weeks)
When I watch their coaching/training videos, it starts to make sense because it's obvious that they expect absolute exhaustion in every workout, which would necessitate deload very often.
Were you talking about serge nubret on the bench?
Not specifically, but yea he was well known for massive volumes of pump training with very short recoveries, none particularly near failure.
@@GVS his idea was to keep as much blood as possible on the muscle, but what was in the blood?... thats the qusTRENion
Not even sure if they hard tren back then but yea I don't think he'd train that way if natural.@@chikotripa
@@GVS saw some articles about his steroid usage and actually he used that thing thats basically the same as tren but i dont remember the name, but used at the end of his career
It's like he's talking directly about Jonni Shreve.
5:23 Im probably late, but i would definitely answer "Billy Jean's"
Hi from nyc! u are my fave! are u generally 4 or 5 days a week in the gym?? thank you!!!
~6 typically
and u can recover from this!!!!!!! I bow!!!!!!@@GVS
then again im 100 years old so what do I know:)
I've noticed since hitting 30 I'm training smarter, sleeping better and making sure I don't get too comfortable
I'm 15 years into training I'm quite "fluffy" 5ft11 at 245-257lbs natural, 3-4 sessions a week intense 2 hours a session, found it works for me
those famous two words will be said... "it depends"
"Enhance.....enhance.....enhance" - The Day After Tomorrow (I think)
Algo
I have found that MOST of the advice from the Dark Side applies us naturals still, but there is occasionally something from that side that I disagree with. For example, a TON of enhanced lifters absolutely insist that everyone can build huge delts with just isolation exercises and that you can totally skip overhead pressing. I have found this to be the opposite, because I tried that for my first year of training in 2019 and for a chunk of 2020 and never saw any real progress in my delts at all. Then I finally decided to focus on strength and made more progress for my delts in 1 month of overhead pressing ONLY than blasting isolation for a year. Focusing on overhead strength was huge for me and I never find natural lifters offering the advice to skip overhead pressing variations to get huge delts, but I see it all the time from enhanced lifters.
Good technique is good technique regardless, just don't expect fast results.
One thing I've noticed though, is the juiced guys have more drive to work out with intensity. One thing many natural lifters often lack is the proper motivation to have high intensity lifts (high intensity doesn't necessarily mean ultra heavy weight).
What's that outro song from?
Dave Tate mentioned
OPINION ACCEPTED
Yoo man how big are your arms? Looking big while doing those pulldowns
18.25/17.75" last I checked
As a sprinter genetic who deadlifts 300kg pure natural with crappy diet at 110kg bw I never listened to roiders who are weaker without roids. You have to listen to other huge nattys for real things that work. Can't listen to tipps of a guy who natural would only lift 200kg max and then roids to 400kg.
But natural top genetics can often still look bigger and be stronger in many things than most roiders.
E.g. being able to row with 180kg while deadlifting 300kg - most roiders who deadlift more still aren't capable of big rows, because they lack the natural frame for it.
We're all gonna make it brahs
💪
Outro song name please?
🏀🏀🏀🏀
What was your college experience like, and what motivated you to move to Asia? It’d be interesting to see a video on those two topics.
: p
Yes. Some of my favorite people in the industry are enhanced, but you have to be mindful that all of them with as impressive of the physiques they achieved, they would not have the same mileage naturally. For motivation, technique and learning about different modalities it’s very helpful, but if they’re anecdotally claiming something is optimal for building mass id be cautious, because firstly nothing is truly “optimal” and secondly because when you’re enhanced all the other factors are minuscule. I’ve been watching quite a lot of John Meadows(RIP) and have started doing cluster sets because of him. May not be optimal but they’re fun to do and you feel very accomplished after the set because of how grueling they are.
All in all, everybody has beliefs & ideas that are worth taking into consideration, and working out is so cool because there’s no one size fits all answer and a whole lot of room for experimenting.
I like that point about powerlifters having good information on the lift technique. With that its 100% lift oriented, and the joints don't care how strong or big the muscles are if the joints are whats being beaten up repeatedly.
Basement Bodybuilding once made a video about how bodybuilding doesn't end when you leave the gym, it's what you do the whole day. The many small (sometimes bigger and harder) choices which leads to the aesthetic results.
I noticed by the Sam Sulek video's I've peeked at it's really just a lot of life talking. I think that's where the value of a enhanced bodybuilder lies. The PED's doesn't remove life problems, and there will always be someone who finds what you say relatable.
Too much life stress can lead to stress eating and bad sleep routine. I think long talky videos about how the person is encountering daily challenges and continuously attempting problem solving is what many seek in order to figure out how to cope with their own day to day struggles. At least that's what I liked about Sam Sulek style of videos.
Never inspired by PED users. Can get all the info I need from natural lifters I follow.
"squeal some alleles"
Getting this tattooed
I am quite the minority. I was the natural lifter who spent about my whole life chasing steroid lifters.
Moreso chasing the strongest powerlifters and calisthenics athletes both on steroids and some naturally who rivaled steroid users. Also chased some of the physique knowing I would not exactly look like a steroid user or even be stronger than the strongest ones.
However chasing them did help me break past what I believed was possible because I didn't put limits. Both strength and physique got crazy naturally.
I agree with the silver era and old time strongman giving better advice than today's bodybuilders. Today's bodybuilders advice mostly helps for other bodybuilders on juice. Because its mostly about the right stack of PEDs and synthol use.
Some natural bodybuilding advice today applies to other naturals. People like you and Basement Bodybuilding are showing a true bodybuilding side for naturals.
The silver era did the compound lifts, isolation lifts, calisthenics, and nutrition and built aesthetic physiques. The focused on overall performance even outside just bench, squat and deadlift and ate right.
Listen to anybody and throw away what doesn't work. Anyone on juice can still give good info, a natty just has to know they gotta do the same thing but slower.
That face at 3:34 is nightmare fuel
On aesthetic matters, I wouldn't listen to PED users because they suffer from severe body dysmorphia and probably mental health issues that make them abuse substances to get bigger in order to compensate their lack of self esteem/worth, which can infect normal people and thus making them use steroids too, when many natural lifters, especially in calisthenics, have beautiful physiques as opposed to grotesque ones who only appeal to other sufferers of severe body dysmorphia. As for training, sure, why not try their suggestions.
"Less than useless " 😂. Dang, I like that.
hey can someone tell me if my routine is good or not
Push
Seated shoulder press 6-10 (2 sets)
Incline bench press 6-10 (2 sets)
Lateral raises 6-12 (3sets)
Bench press 6-10(2 sets)
Tricep push down 6-12 (2 sets)
Push ups 2 sets (failure)
Pull
Lat pull down 6-10 (2 sets)
Bent over row 6-10 ( 2 sets)
Seated cable row 6-12 (2 sets)
Reverse pec dec 6-12 ( 2 sets)
Bicep curl 6-12 (2 sets)
Hammer curl 6-12 ( 2 sets)
Legs
Squats 6-10 (3 sets)
Leg extension 6-12 (2 sets)
Hamstring leg curl 6-12 (2 sets)
Calves 6-12 (2 sets)
Plank
Arms 💪 all to failure or almost to failure
Cable bicep curl 6-12 ( 2 sets)
Tricep extension 6-12 (2 sets)
Incline bicep curl 6-12 ( 2sets)
Tricep pushdown 6-12 (2 sets)
Lataral raise 6-20 (2 sets)
Face pull 6-12 (2 sets)
Replace leg extension and leg curl for rdls and bulgarian split squats everything else is good
@@divinity1495 Nope, he's already doing squats and leg curls hit all the heads in hams. He may add RDLs or some kind of hip hinge but replacing it with leg curls completely is not a great idea.
I agree 100% on what you call 'fluff and pump'. I call it endless reps to nowhere. I am 38, been lifting since 18, tried many methods. I could not get passed the intermediate phase with the enhanced bodybuilder method. For me, the only thing that worked was heavy weights (6-12 reps - higher reps on quads does work), close to failure, majority compound movements.
Example: What will NOT work for a natty is: one arm tricep pushdowns for 20 reps at 4 RIR. What WILL work for a natty: Barbell Skullcrushers near failure for 8-12. Just my opinion.
You have an amazing physique and learning from your content is a true privilege!