Found your channel about two months ago and since then have watched all your videos. Now that I'm finally caught up I'm sad because I have to endure waiting for the next one.
@@TheRedBook Going through them in order makes one appreciate the newer videos even more because the contrast is present. Stars are beautiful but they need that black background to make their beauty shine, or how in Tolkien's Legendarium the ugliness of evil is required to bring forth things even more wonderful than what was originally there without evil. Not that your early videos are "ugly" by any means; compared to your modern works, maybe, but I tend to think of these things in an absolute sense rather than a relative one. Just because something is smaller than the greatest does not mean it is insignificant on its own.
The first of a double video about The Fall of Sauron. Here I discuss what death means in the Legendarium in relation to Sauron's diminishment. The second video focuses on the possible return of Sauron. Support The Red Book www.patreon.com/TheRedBook ua-cam.com/channels/POz2P0OxWp0ij0K4BsLsRw.htmljoin
Nice video! After your 2nd video, you should touch on the most complex aspect of death in Middle-Earth: The Gift Of Man. We all know about the immortality of the Elves. But what about the mortality of Man? How exactly does Eru’s Gift to them affect their spiritual state and agency over all other races? Would love to see a video on that!
@@MistaGify As always, I will say it's on the list. I have notes written down about this quote "Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as time wears even the Powers shall envy". I also want to explain that the Gift of Men isn't just mortality. So, it will be a video...but I don't know when :D
@@TheRedBook I myself see The Gift Of Men as a twofold one: 1. No matter how awful life gets, Men will pass in body and spirit. Beyond Arda, they shall find eternal rest which Elves and Ainur will never find even in Valinor, till the world's end. This is easy enough for me and most people to understand. 2. Mortality comes with a paradoxical agency and culpability. Precisely to offset Man's temporality, Eru made them free to fulfil or defy the Music, to make the most of their days. But given that Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits are capable of evil too, with the latter 2 races also being mortal if long-lived, what does this all mean?! The 2nd point is my biggest question about the Legendarium and the one I wish you would answer the most! 😉
Never understood why such debate. Surely "The Scouring of the Shire" shows us what happens to a Maia's fëa if that being had lost most of its power, been separated from its rhöa ("killed") and had sunk so low as to be refused return to Valinor/Mandos...it is blown away, dissolved on the breeze. I've always read Sauron's end as being like Saruman's: a vanquished spirit, existing in the world, but faded and powerless. Pretty much what you describe here.👍
Listening to your content has given me a much better appreciation for the philosophy and subtle spiritually underlying Tolkien's work. Thank you for that.
Excellent video, but just to add this from 'Of The Laws and Customs Among the Eldar' " _Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it he not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them._ " How might that relate to Sauron? Tolkien has the appearence of orc cults in the 4th Age, in his abortive sequel to Lord of the Rings, ‘The New Shadow’. Could the maimed spirit of Sauron, still existing as a discarnate spirit in Middle-earth, act like one of the Houseless spirits Tolkien warns against? And if so could there be a way back into incarnation for him, if some unwary person in one of these orcs cults tried communing with spirits? In this case, as Tolkien writes, Sauron is unable to return by reforming his body, and has still lost almost all of his power with the destruction of the One Ring. But is returned due to the power of someone else using necromancy to contact his discarnate spirit. Sauron then would not have the power of a Maia spirit, just that of his host body. But if that host was the leader of one of those orc cults, that might still be considerable. Just a thought.
The one way I imagine Sauron could have malign influence in Middle-earth is if he haunts the Ithil Palantir. To change or direct what was seen by the great leaders of the world who have dared to use the other Palantir because Sauron is believed to be gone.
Finally. An explanation I can understand. The concept of Soul or Spirit is not something my thoughts can resonate with. It seems to be a myth that most people want to believe.
And is there no possibility that Sauron was banished into the Void to Morgoth? Because what Tolkien wrote about Sauron's fate was that he followed Morgoth into the Void. Also possibly Sauron could later help Morgoth to get off the chain Angainor so that Dagor Dagorath can start. This complicated process just takes a lot of time. That's why so much time passes until Dagor Dagorath.
We've already talked about this on the other video. There's one line in The Silmarillion about Sauron and the path to the void. There's nothing in The Lord of the Rings or anywhere else about Sauron actually being put through the Door of Night, which is what would have to happen.
@@TheRedBook Alright, and what do you think will Sauron and Saruman do during the Dagor Dagorath? I have always thought that Sauron could possibly have helped Morgoth to get off the chain and out of the Void somehow. If Sauron of course was there or managed it somehow to get there.
I love how even Tolkien's system of mortality draws a connection between haste and evil. The whole world has so much applicability to people trying to achieve their ends too quickly and compromising on their vision. But it has the hopeful message that good will win out in the end because it wasn't hasty and didn't waste its power. It feels like so so many of the stories in the legendarium are cautionary tales about this. And both John and Christopher Tolkien lived by this ethos, taking two lifetimes to create this magnum opus. Definitely as an AI researcher myself I wish my industry would take a leaf from Tolkien and slow down.
huh, that announced video reminds me of something i heard, that he'll come back for the Legendarium's equivalent of the apocalypse, but i think i saw no sources for that.
I wonder if Sauron would function similar to a biblical demon or a ghost at this point, no longer having the power to take physical form, but can still manifest as in spectral form like he did in the hobbit films as the Necromancer, but not as potent. Would he be able to possess a mortal like a demon would? Another question is if Morgoth can subtly influence things in a similar way from the void?
That's where the Satanic parallelism diverged between Bible and Legendarium. In tradition, The Great Enemy learned his lesson earlier after losing the Heavenly War. Afterwards, he just use behind-the-scene tactics to oppose God. He even managed to steal the Lordship of the whole world from Man just by using spiritual strategies. Lmao.
Steven I loved this statement you quoted from Tolkien's Essay: "The use of bodies by these spirits in origin is self-arraying but approaches the state of incarnation. The longer and the more the same body is used, the greater bond of habit and the less the desire to leave it. It becomes a customary garb. No longer being an adornment as you see with the powers of the West in Valinor, but something the spirit relies upon." This blew my mind. Before I read this, I had assumed that Gandalf would have of course returned to Valinor as Olórin, but now I am not so sure. Perhaps Gandalf was attached to the form he took in Middle Earth all those years and would prefer to "wear" that form in Valinor. What form do you think Gandalf/Olórin took once back in Valinor , Steven?
I think this would have been the case before Gandalf the Grey died fighting the Balrog, since he had been in that body for most of the 3rd Age, but after dying and being sent back he may not have been as bound to that form, since he had spent less time in it. I might be wrong though since Eru sent him back in the same form.
Interesting fact: Sauron could be "mortal", if he existed in first version of The Silmarillion, where characters later known as Maiar could be killed, but only by hand of Vala.
Do you think that the making of the One Ring and Saruman's Ring of Power could have marred their spirits and be why Saruman was barred from Aman instead or being allowed to return to be given a chance for forgiveness like Melkor was? Or maybe Manwe felt he had learnt a hard lesson the hard way and decided not to grant forgiveness to anyone who had proven to be a traitor. Galadriel had not taken part in any Kinslaying and the Ban of the Noldor had been lifted.
@@TheRedBook This is the best Tolkien channel ! I just think it deserves so much more appreciation,and I hope more people to see it ❤️ . Sadly ,most Tolkien related groups in fb have link bans or YT bans ,so can’t even share it freely there :/ You do all of your content with so much detail , inspiration and dedication, I just hope you keep doing it ❤️
It is still a very small channel but I hope it keeps growing. I'll certainly keep making content, I enjoy doing it and have a lot more to say. I basically do no promotion outside of UA-cam...which must work against me but I end up feeling like I'm spamming my content if I do that. I am not shameless like some channels haha :D
A good question would be…if Gil-Galad was as noble an elf as he was why wasn’t his spirit sent back the way Glorfindel’s was? And when a spirit is sent back is it sent back in a baby? How would baby Glorfindel know he was Glorfindel? Imagine being a legendary valiant elf trapped in the body of a child. Or would he just kind of “respawn” as a fully grown elf? Interesting questions.
Your second question has been answered. At one time the idea they would be reborn as babies was a thing but it was changed. When Elves are re-embodied, they return with the bodies they had once inhabited. For the first, well, there are plenty of noble Elves. They can't all return as quickly as Glorfindel, otherwise his return isn't notable. Not every Elf wants to wander Valinor again, most seem to stay in the Halls.
According to the legenderium when the one ring was destroyed all that was made with went with it but guys where did all that power go? If sauron's might is contained within the one ring then if it is destroyed then shouldn't he be able to recover that power back or is it lost forever Morgoth diminishment was because he poured is power into middle earth but at the same time that power is somewhere and can be recovered overtime as seen in dagor dagorath but sauron power and might what happen to it and why can't it be recovered Well the ainur inability to take shape is not a result of their lack of power to do so but the purpose of that form itself Sauron went around this by creating a reserve for is strength thereby prolonging his evil making is diminishment hard Power in LOTR is confusing
I think Tolkien is pretty clear that Sauron could not recover the power he had lost after the destruction of the One Ring. I don't think Tolkien wrote about what happened to the power so I figure it was just dissipated in a process similar to entropy. As far as the Dagor Dagorath goes, Tolkien doesn't seem to have really finished that tale so I'm reluctant to draw conclusions from it. However, I think it is worth pointing out that while Melkor/Morgoth was initially powerful enough to withstand all the other Valar combined, by the time of the War of the Powers, he had diminished his strength so much that they defeated him and imprisoned him for 3 Ages. After his return to Middle-Earth following the destruction of the Two Trees, he doesn't seem to have made any effort to recover any of that power even though he had to fear that the Valar would attack him again. If anything, he kept diminishing his personal power.
i like to imagine, In a religiously flavor narrative, That an evil maya never returning back, Either got bored, or repented and has fun at the spirit realm.
In all cases, a fea" of a slain body or otherwise extinguished must petition to a higher power for the ability to reincarnate unless it is innate to them as a speces. Luthien knew this when she told sauron his houseless spirit would have to go back to morgoth begging for reincarnation from the death of Huan if he didnt yield. Some (the Ainur) have enough latent power to reincarnate after being slain. For men, only Valar have the power to reincarnate them and they know firsthand from Eru that their reincarnation will not be suffered, they go free or else. Only in the case of Beren did Eru himself permit a small variance of the rules and then only after direct appeal from his favorite "pets". Back to the topic of Fea reincarnation, in the case of elves; the Valar, and in particular Mandos, is the only one with the authority and power to reincarnate. Otherwise (with a Maia) if they are slain in a body they were presumably in that body because of a mission that a power (lit. VALAR) set them upon. Therefore the authority that caused them to be in that body (typically a valar) should be the power that gives them the additional bump of energy to reconsitute a body. In the case of massively powerful Ainur like Sauron they could accumulate that power after decades but if they want to jump back into the fray they need a boost. In the case of Gandalf/Olorin, Eru himself decided to be the "sponsor" of reincarnation, which must have been comparatively easy versus a large effort for a valar to bump up a subordinate, in my opinion.
When Lúthien and Huan defeated Sauron at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, what would have happened to Sauron had they killed him, seeing as this was before the One Ring existed? Would he have been able to eventually take another physical form or not?
In the History of Middle Earth books, Tolkien wrote that Sauron already died after his battle with Huan (Remember the he was bleeding from his throat) and Sauron's spirit went to Taur-na-fuin and filled that place with horror. (And later established there a new Throne and a darker stronghold)
@@_semih_ I think you are giving your own head canon. I have never heard that before. Huan did not kill Sauron and Sauron did not die after the hound released him and he took on a vampire form and flew to Taur-nu-Fuin. Luthien demanded that Sauron release control of Tol-in-Gaurhoth to save his life, which he did. Was she a liar. Did she speak to a dead Sauron who had already lost control of the island fortress? That is what you seem to be stating.
@@Enerdhil Tolkien stated that the first bodily destruction of Sauron was recorded in the Lay of Leithian, so in the first age. (If you read The Lay of Leithian, you will understand the reference more clear): "But *the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded* in the histories of the Elder Days, *in the Lay of Leithian."* (J.R.R Tolkien, Osanwë-Kenta) "It may be noted that Sauron's first defeat was achieved by the Numenoreans alone (though Sauron was not in fact overthrown personally: his 'captivity' was voluntary and a trick). *In the first overthrow and disembodiment of Sauron* in Middle-earth *(neglecting the matter of Luthien)."* (The History of Middle Earth Vol 10. Morgoth’s Ring) Huan did not kill Sauron he released him while Sauron still got injured from his troat. He took a shape of a wampire and somehow died on his way to Taur-nu-Fuin but as a shadow, his spirit reached the forest and filled there with horror. Tolkien noted that Sauron bereft of his bodily form: "Thus Sauron was constrained to yield up Tol-sirion, *ere bereft of his bodily form he passed away as a black shadow into Taur-nu- Fuin."* (The History of Middle Earth Vol 11. The War of the Jewels) Sauron did not lose the tower even when Huan catched him from his throat. He still had his spells on the walls and gates of Minas Tirith. So it was not possible for Luthien to break them so she made a deal with Sauron. The funny thing is that if she just let Huan finish off Sauron (or his bodily form at least), she would not be able to even enter and rescue Beren from there lol
this made me wonder what happen to that great part of himself he poured into the ring when it was destroyed, did that simply, cease to be? Maybe he can gather that back to himself and is how he return for the Dagor Dagorath.
As far as we know, nothing can truly be destroyed in Tolkien's canon, which is why my running theory is that the ring's power was simply absorbed into the earth and was effectively assimilated into Melkor's corruption. Which might explain why all the races except humans disappeared from Middle Earth after the Third Age, since Sauron's darkness entering the earth on top of what his master already did to it was the straw that broke the camel's back, and no one could withstand the state of the world anymore, even without the tangible threat of a dark lord.
Great stuff as ever Steven, many a lesser man would simply have said yes or no and pleaesed/disgusted half of tthe people, you examined the subject. Thank you.
I wonder what happens to Orcs, Trolls, Ents, Giants, hounds (at least one of them), Eagles and a few other birds. And at least one sword. All are speaking of the speaking peoples. (well they speak)
So before watching the video to see if I’m right. I thought that he didn’t die he just became nothing more than an angry wind, never able to pass on into death but never able to effect the world again.
I wonder about this also, because we know Maiar are immortal outside of Middle Earth. Yet, like Gandalf they can be sent back, but I don't know who or what would send a Balrog back. Tolkien mentions the things that existed before the world and Bombadil has memory of that time. Are they immortal, consider Shelob? I would imagine not but there is a lot of freedom to speculate! Great question!
Since Sauron poured all his cruelty, malice and will to dominate into the One Ring, shouldn't the remnant spirit should be much kinder and helpful? I like to think of him as a spirit of intellect and total powerlessness, like a philosophy professor.
The cruelty, malice, and will to dominate is just a movie thing. He had the motive to dominate and made a ring for it but it wasn't like removing that part of himself. He removed the greater part of his natural power. The greatest part of his will you could say. Once it was gone, he'd be a shadow of his former self, full of hatred and bitterness
So, before his fall in the 3rd Age, was Sauron essentially dead the entire time during the War of the Ring? He didn’t exactly have an incarnate body. Powerful, yes, but still disembodied. So wouldn’t that be equivalent to being dead?
Hmm, well if you think being unable to fully interact with the world would be equivalent to being dead, then sure but Sauron had a physical body and was present in the War of the Ring. He just didn't leave his tower. Maybe better to argue that he was 'dead' until he took on a shape once again. The separation of the body and spirit is death but the enduring spirit would rebuild its strength to take shape again. I'd argue that while Sauron was unable to trouble the world, he was essentially dead but that part is debatable and probably purely down to semantics. I'm definitely one who argues for the act of death happening though.
@@TheRedBook I essentially feel like he was “present” and in the process of rebuilding, but would have greatly accelerated the process with the ring. I would also agree with you that this would come down to an argument of what it means to be “alive” or “dead” and that might come down to personal spiritual beliefs, or even UPG.
I agree with your first point, that's how I view it. For the second. I believe that people saying the likes of Sauron couldn't die are basically saying that no one dies in the Legendarium. It hinges on the existence of the spirit and the changing nature of their existence at some moment (such as being violently torn from a body). That's at least how I view it.
@@TheRedBook Well, I don’t necessarily mean that’s how they view Tolkien’s universe. I think it’s how people view the real world, and that would inform their belief of the story. And people insert themselves into the story, which (in my opinion) is likely what Tolkien intended.
Oh yeah, with the real world it's a completely different story. I think death is something different in Tolkien because the spirit endures. I don't think it's the same in the real world.
Fantastic! What are your thoughts on why Sauron used a Ring(physical object) to put his power(Soul/spirit) into. Why was it key to incarnate his essence into the object for power? Was Sauron mimicking the power of Eru, by gaining the ability to combine the spiritual and the physical? Just Curious?
I see it as placing yourself within that which you want to rule. It makes you a part of it. It's why Dark Lords incarnate and don't just rule as "pure spirits" without physical shape. The control over the Incarnates would be far greater if you placed yourself within that world and poured your own power into it in some way, gaining a greater degree of control. Morgoth did this with Morgoth's Ring and Sauron did this with a physical ring - which was possible to make due to the remnants of Morgoth's power that seeped its way into the flesh of Arda. At least, that's how I view it.
@@TheRedBook Very interesting...yes, I've thought this too, as Sauron's physical form, while formidable, had limits. But if he could harness the true power of his spirit form into the physical world he would become unmatched. What's interesting to me was he found a way to do it! He couldn't create like Eru(with the flame Imperishable). But maybe he found some "dark" way, through Morgoth's influence/teachings? Also, didn't Sauron study under Aule? Who also made creations(The Dwarves) without the Flame Imperishable, which didn't workout very well, until Eru intervened?
Presumably any of the Ainur could die permanently if Eru wished them out of existence. Why or why not Eru would or would not do so would make for an interesting video.
After watching Episode IX of Star Wars and them deciding it was a good idea to bring Palpatine back(clone or no)I'm hoping he is dead because it's just not interesting to defeat the same evil you already defeated. heck, why'd anyone sail into the West if he wasn't gone yet?
Don't worry. Tolkien wasn't a hack. Even when he started his very quickly abandoned sequel, it was the memory of Sauron and the evil seed of Morgoth that brought about new evil. Not a "somehow Sauron returned" lack of creativity.
Morgoth will return having found the secret of the eternal flame and raise Sauron back up to his former power. Together they will conquer middle earth and destroy the Valar.
Great Video! Thanks for covering a topic that gets complicated by Ainur attachments. On a r elated note, do you think that the "change" that came over Melian, after the death of Thingol was the ability to let go of her hroa after the ruin of all that had been wrought in that form save for a now mortal daughter, who was soon to die herself? Or, did she have to die a physical death like throwing herself into the sea before returning to OG Lorien?
If you read Silmarillion it clearly states that Maiar could move as unclothed spirits among the children of Eru. It specifically refers to Olorin doing that. Melian in her grief perhaps chose to disincarnate and return to Valinor.
@simon... Yes when they choose to self incarnate. The two cases you mentioned are different. Melian became bound to her incarnate form. We can't just say it's as easy as leaving her body and returning West.
@@TheRedBook Yes. This is what I was asking about. When Tolkien talks about being "bound" to a form we tend to think about that binding in terms of Sauron's and Morgoth, the pouring of their spirits into the minions and soldiers of their great armies,and into objects as small as a wedding band or as large as Arda itself. But, with Melian, the "binding" is more relatable and poignant. Those were the arms with which she held Thingol, her love, the breasts that fed her daughter, Luthien, the hands that wove the story of the Ainur into the walls of her home. It was the life of an Elf-Queen of Belariand that bound Melian to her body and the love in her heart that set all of these things in motion. Perhaps her "change" after the death of Thingol was a mercy to make letting go an the transition back to discarnate Maia more bearable. I wonder if there are therapy sessions West of West with Nienna for Elrond and Celebrian, and Thingol and Melian to help process the horror of losing daughters in a way that no other elf can know. When someone tells me Tolkien is all sunshine and rainbows, it tells me they have not read the Silmarillion. The grief is profound and always accompanies the joy of triumph over the Shadow. Props to Melian, the Istar of Love.
@theredbook I have always wondered if saruman actually made a ring, and if he did, did he get instruction from Sauron or learn on his own?? Does Tolkien ever hint at the truth?
I have no reason to doubt that Saruman's ring was genuine but Tolkien says he was missing the 'ring lore' that could only be found in Mordor. It certainly wouldn't have been a ring to challenge Sauron or anything. Arguably it would be his 'essay in the craft' before his knowledge was even greater.
Istari were very limited by what they could do in Middle Earth. Eru put restrictions and limitations on their power or else there could have been six Maiar duking it out in Middle Earth for Arda supremacy.
Would Sauron's "spirit" remain in Middle Earth as a diminished thought of evil to corrupt the minds of men? Would he be recalled to the Halls of Mandos or cast into the Void? Where is he?? Guess I'll stay tuned for part 2...
He was counted among them until he wasn't. And if we're correcting, Ainur is plural. He was an Ainu and a Vala until he was no longer counted among that order.
Everyone knows Sauron didn't die, he couldn't die due to what he was, a Mia. He merely melted into a shadow that can never grow again and merely knaw away at itself in the darkest corners of the world.
I just had this argument with someone on social media, it gets way too toxic. This is why we need more content from Red Book on the nature of the Ainur. Sauron dies, Gandalf dies, Melian dies. Heck, even Morgoth dies in the end at the hands of Túrin.
It really just depends on how you define "death." Personally, I think falling asleep counts as death and waking up is like respawning in a video game. Super serious.
How can this channel still not even be at 50k subs? It's way better than the Tolkien channels with 200, 300, 900 thousand subscribers...
Found your channel about two months ago and since then have watched all your videos. Now that I'm finally caught up I'm sad because I have to endure waiting for the next one.
You even endured the really early videos? :O those are rough!
@@TheRedBook Buying the new microphone was a great decision.
@@TheRedBook Going through them in order makes one appreciate the newer videos even more because the contrast is present. Stars are beautiful but they need that black background to make their beauty shine, or how in Tolkien's Legendarium the ugliness of evil is required to bring forth things even more wonderful than what was originally there without evil. Not that your early videos are "ugly" by any means; compared to your modern works, maybe, but I tend to think of these things in an absolute sense rather than a relative one. Just because something is smaller than the greatest does not mean it is insignificant on its own.
@@TheRedBook but I saw the big eyeball blow up!..how could he survive that?
The first of a double video about The Fall of Sauron. Here I discuss what death means in the Legendarium in relation to Sauron's diminishment. The second video focuses on the possible return of Sauron.
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Nice video! After your 2nd video, you should touch on the most complex aspect of death in Middle-Earth: The Gift Of Man.
We all know about the immortality of the Elves. But what about the mortality of Man? How exactly does Eru’s Gift to them affect their spiritual state and agency over all other races? Would love to see a video on that!
@@MistaGify As always, I will say it's on the list. I have notes written down about this quote "Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as time wears even the Powers shall envy". I also want to explain that the Gift of Men isn't just mortality. So, it will be a video...but I don't know when :D
@@TheRedBook I myself see The Gift Of Men as a twofold one:
1. No matter how awful life gets, Men will pass in body and spirit. Beyond Arda, they shall find eternal rest which Elves and Ainur will never find even in Valinor, till the world's end. This is easy enough for me and most people to understand.
2. Mortality comes with a paradoxical agency and culpability. Precisely to offset Man's temporality, Eru made them free to fulfil or defy the Music, to make the most of their days. But given that Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits are capable of evil too, with the latter 2 races also being mortal if long-lived, what does this all mean?!
The 2nd point is my biggest question about the Legendarium and the one I wish you would answer the most! 😉
@@griffineagle7 Gandalf is actually about 5 feet 6 inches, not as tall as people may imagine.
You have nailed the topic of mortality - officially one of the most complicated ones in the Legendarium! Bravo :)
Tolkien was very Catholic
Never understood why such debate. Surely "The Scouring of the Shire" shows us what happens to a Maia's fëa if that being had lost most of its power, been separated from its rhöa ("killed") and had sunk so low as to be refused return to Valinor/Mandos...it is blown away, dissolved on the breeze. I've always read Sauron's end as being like Saruman's: a vanquished spirit, existing in the world, but faded and powerless. Pretty much what you describe here.👍
Excellent question to answer, and a wonderfully thorough answer
First video I'm watching on your channel and your voice and narration style is EXACTLY what I thought and hoped it would be lol, subscribed.
Thanks for using my music :) I love LOTR & fan theories !
Thank you for commenting :) your music really improves the videos I make.
I absolutely love your channel! You bring to light the awesome depth of Tolkien’s universe and for that I thank you 🤍
Your insights are so well thought out. Another great video. Thank you!
Listening to your content has given me a much better appreciation for the philosophy and subtle spiritually underlying Tolkien's work. Thank you for that.
Excellent video, but just to add this from 'Of The Laws and Customs Among the Eldar'
" _Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it he not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them._ "
How might that relate to Sauron? Tolkien has the appearence of orc cults in the 4th Age, in his abortive sequel to Lord of the Rings, ‘The New Shadow’. Could the maimed spirit of Sauron, still existing as a discarnate spirit in Middle-earth, act like one of the Houseless spirits Tolkien warns against? And if so could there be a way back into incarnation for him, if some unwary person in one of these orcs cults tried communing with spirits? In this case, as Tolkien writes, Sauron is unable to return by reforming his body, and has still lost almost all of his power with the destruction of the One Ring. But is returned due to the power of someone else using necromancy to contact his discarnate spirit. Sauron then would not have the power of a Maia spirit, just that of his host body. But if that host was the leader of one of those orc cults, that might still be considerable. Just a thought.
I’m thinking Barrow Wights here!
@@simonmorris4226 Yes. A grave peroblem.
800th like! :) Great stuff as always, the visuals look even better than before. Thanks for your amazing work!
Merci!
Yesssss Redbook on a Monday 🙃 thanks for the content
Cheers Steven. Happy Easter. If you celebrate
I do not but thank you all the same, hope you had a good one :)
@@TheRedBook cheers
Late Happy Easter to you, Shane. I am sure Tolkien loved this holiday and the Holy Week leading up to it. 😁✝️
Looking forward to the second installment of Saurons death. As always, enjoyed this part immensely.
Cheers! Not long to wait for that one...and it has a bit of Morgoth - which is always good ;)
I truly believe that both CJR and JRR Tolkien would have approved wholeheartedly of your austere summative analyses of the histories of Arda.
Using some of the ambient music from Demon's Souls is a nice touch.
In 2030 cinemas coming soon "somehow sauron has returned"
And the hero will be his 3rd age illegitimate relative who forged his or her own ring.
@@TheRedBook Revenge of the Saurons New Adventures Son Rides Again Part XXXIIII.
The only official sequel to LotR that i need is the Dagor Dagorath fan movie, watchable on youtube (just search it).
Excellent content! Thank you!
The one way I imagine Sauron could have malign influence in Middle-earth is if he haunts the Ithil Palantir. To change or direct what was seen by the great leaders of the world who have dared to use the other Palantir because Sauron is believed to be gone.
Thanks for the great perspectives ,to ponder upon, once again 🙏
Very welcome, hope you enjoyed it!
Finally. An explanation I can understand. The concept of Soul or Spirit is not something my thoughts can resonate with. It seems to be a myth that most people want to believe.
Great content 👏
And is there no possibility that Sauron was banished into the Void to Morgoth? Because what Tolkien wrote about Sauron's fate was that he followed Morgoth into the Void. Also possibly Sauron could later help Morgoth to get off the chain Angainor so that Dagor Dagorath can start. This complicated process just takes a lot of time. That's why so much time passes until Dagor Dagorath.
We've already talked about this on the other video. There's one line in The Silmarillion about Sauron and the path to the void. There's nothing in The Lord of the Rings or anywhere else about Sauron actually being put through the Door of Night, which is what would have to happen.
@@TheRedBook Alright, and what do you think will Sauron and Saruman do during the Dagor Dagorath? I have always thought that Sauron could possibly have helped Morgoth to get off the chain and out of the Void somehow. If Sauron of course was there or managed it somehow to get there.
I love how even Tolkien's system of mortality draws a connection between haste and evil. The whole world has so much applicability to people trying to achieve their ends too quickly and compromising on their vision. But it has the hopeful message that good will win out in the end because it wasn't hasty and didn't waste its power. It feels like so so many of the stories in the legendarium are cautionary tales about this. And both John and Christopher Tolkien lived by this ethos, taking two lifetimes to create this magnum opus.
Definitely as an AI researcher myself I wish my industry would take a leaf from Tolkien and slow down.
Transhumanism coming to a world near you.🙄
Like how the world powers are being too hasty on conquering lands for themselves.
huh, that announced video reminds me of something i heard, that he'll come back for the Legendarium's equivalent of the apocalypse, but i think i saw no sources for that.
Outstanding
I wonder if Sauron would function similar to a biblical demon or a ghost at this point, no longer having the power to take physical form, but can still manifest as in spectral form like he did in the hobbit films as the Necromancer, but not as potent. Would he be able to possess a mortal like a demon would? Another question is if Morgoth can subtly influence things in a similar way from the void?
That's where the Satanic parallelism diverged between Bible and Legendarium.
In tradition, The Great Enemy learned his lesson earlier after losing the Heavenly War. Afterwards, he just use behind-the-scene tactics to oppose God. He even managed to steal the Lordship of the whole world from Man just by using spiritual strategies. Lmao.
Danke!
I appreciate that :D Danke vielmals!
Steven I loved this statement you quoted from Tolkien's Essay:
"The use of bodies by these spirits in origin is self-arraying but approaches the state of incarnation. The longer and the more the same body is used, the greater bond of habit and the less the desire to leave it. It becomes a customary garb. No longer being an adornment as you see with the powers of the West in Valinor, but something the spirit relies upon."
This blew my mind. Before I read this, I had assumed that Gandalf would have of course returned to Valinor as Olórin, but now I am not so sure. Perhaps Gandalf was attached to the form he took in Middle Earth all those years and would prefer to "wear" that form in Valinor. What form do you think Gandalf/Olórin took once back in Valinor , Steven?
I think this would have been the case before Gandalf the Grey died fighting the Balrog, since he had been in that body for most of the 3rd Age, but after dying and being sent back he may not have been as bound to that form, since he had spent less time in it. I might be wrong though since Eru sent him back in the same form.
@@glorfindel4625
Thanks for the reply. I agree with your take.
Interesting fact: Sauron could be "mortal", if he existed in first version of The Silmarillion, where characters later known as Maiar could be killed, but only by hand of Vala.
Do you think that the making of the One Ring and Saruman's Ring of Power could have marred their spirits and be why Saruman was barred from Aman instead or being allowed to return to be given a chance for forgiveness like Melkor was? Or maybe Manwe felt he had learnt a hard lesson the hard way and decided not to grant forgiveness to anyone who had proven to be a traitor. Galadriel had not taken part in any Kinslaying and the Ban of the Noldor had been lifted.
Let's go!
Thanks
Too kind, thanks very much for your support :)
@@TheRedBook I wish I could help more 🥲
Not at all. Even a comment helps the channel :D
@@TheRedBook This is the best Tolkien channel ! I just think it deserves so much more appreciation,and I hope more people to see it ❤️ . Sadly ,most Tolkien related groups in fb have link bans or YT bans ,so can’t even share it freely there :/
You do all of your content with so much detail , inspiration and dedication, I just hope you keep doing it ❤️
It is still a very small channel but I hope it keeps growing. I'll certainly keep making content, I enjoy doing it and have a lot more to say. I basically do no promotion outside of UA-cam...which must work against me but I end up feeling like I'm spamming my content if I do that. I am not shameless like some channels haha :D
Could Melkor give Sauron assistance in regaining a physical form upon the Dagor-Dagorath?
The answer to this question is much more complex, but it can be summed up with the "Well no, but actually yes, but still no" meme lol
Can Sauron die? *Ghost of Sparta theme starts playing* "Yes."
A good question would be…if Gil-Galad was as noble an elf as he was why wasn’t his spirit sent back the way Glorfindel’s was?
And when a spirit is sent back is it sent back in a baby? How would baby Glorfindel know he was Glorfindel? Imagine being a legendary valiant elf trapped in the body of a child. Or would he just kind of “respawn” as a fully grown elf? Interesting questions.
Your second question has been answered. At one time the idea they would be reborn as babies was a thing but it was changed. When Elves are re-embodied, they return with the bodies they had once inhabited.
For the first, well, there are plenty of noble Elves. They can't all return as quickly as Glorfindel, otherwise his return isn't notable. Not every Elf wants to wander Valinor again, most seem to stay in the Halls.
According to the legenderium when the one ring was destroyed all that was made with went with it but guys where did all that power go?
If sauron's might is contained within the one ring then if it is destroyed then shouldn't he be able to recover that power back or is it lost forever
Morgoth diminishment was because he poured is power into middle earth but at the same time that power is somewhere and can be recovered overtime as seen in dagor dagorath but sauron power and might what happen to it and why can't it be recovered
Well the ainur inability to take shape is not a result of their lack of power to do so but the purpose of that form itself
Sauron went around this by creating a reserve for is strength thereby prolonging his evil making is diminishment hard
Power in LOTR is confusing
I think Tolkien is pretty clear that Sauron could not recover the power he had lost after the destruction of the One Ring. I don't think Tolkien wrote about what happened to the power so I figure it was just dissipated in a process similar to entropy.
As far as the Dagor Dagorath goes, Tolkien doesn't seem to have really finished that tale so I'm reluctant to draw conclusions from it. However, I think it is worth pointing out that while Melkor/Morgoth was initially powerful enough to withstand all the other Valar combined, by the time of the War of the Powers, he had diminished his strength so much that they defeated him and imprisoned him for 3 Ages. After his return to Middle-Earth following the destruction of the Two Trees, he doesn't seem to have made any effort to recover any of that power even though he had to fear that the Valar would attack him again. If anything, he kept diminishing his personal power.
i like to imagine, In a religiously flavor narrative, That an evil maya never returning back, Either got bored, or repented and has fun at the spirit realm.
In all cases, a fea" of a slain body or otherwise extinguished must petition to a higher power for the ability to reincarnate unless it is innate to them as a speces. Luthien knew this when she told sauron his houseless spirit would have to go back to morgoth begging for reincarnation from the death of Huan if he didnt yield. Some (the Ainur) have enough latent power to reincarnate after being slain.
For men, only Valar have the power to reincarnate them and they know firsthand from Eru that their reincarnation will not be suffered, they go free or else. Only in the case of Beren did Eru himself permit a small variance of the rules and then only after direct appeal from his favorite "pets".
Back to the topic of Fea reincarnation, in the case of elves; the Valar, and in particular Mandos, is the only one with the authority and power to reincarnate. Otherwise (with a Maia) if they are slain in a body they were presumably in that body because of a mission that a power (lit. VALAR) set them upon. Therefore the authority that caused them to be in that body (typically a valar) should be the power that gives them the additional bump of energy to reconsitute a body. In the case of massively powerful Ainur like Sauron they could accumulate that power after decades but if they want to jump back into the fray they need a boost. In the case of Gandalf/Olorin, Eru himself decided to be the "sponsor" of reincarnation, which must have been comparatively easy versus a large effort for a valar to bump up a subordinate, in my opinion.
New Perspective
When Lúthien and Huan defeated Sauron at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, what would have happened to Sauron had they killed him, seeing as this was before the One Ring existed? Would he have been able to eventually take another physical form or not?
I hope Steven answers this question.😁🙏
Doesn't Lúthien explain that in the same part?
In the History of Middle Earth books, Tolkien wrote that Sauron already died after his battle with Huan (Remember the he was bleeding from his throat) and Sauron's spirit went to Taur-na-fuin and filled that place with horror. (And later established there a new Throne and a darker stronghold)
@@_semih_
I think you are giving your own head canon. I have never heard that before. Huan did not kill Sauron and Sauron did not die after the hound released him and he took on a vampire form and flew to Taur-nu-Fuin. Luthien demanded that Sauron release control of Tol-in-Gaurhoth to save his life, which he did. Was she a liar. Did she speak to a dead Sauron who had already lost control of the island fortress? That is what you seem to be stating.
@@Enerdhil
Tolkien stated that the first bodily destruction of Sauron was recorded in the Lay of Leithian, so in the first age. (If you read The Lay of Leithian, you will understand the reference more clear):
"But *the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded* in the histories of the Elder Days, *in the Lay of Leithian."* (J.R.R Tolkien, Osanwë-Kenta)
"It may be noted that Sauron's first defeat was achieved by the Numenoreans alone (though Sauron was not in fact overthrown personally: his 'captivity' was voluntary and a trick). *In the first overthrow and disembodiment of Sauron* in Middle-earth *(neglecting the matter of Luthien)."*
(The History of Middle Earth Vol 10. Morgoth’s Ring)
Huan did not kill Sauron he released him while Sauron still got injured from his troat. He took a shape of a wampire and somehow died on his way to Taur-nu-Fuin but as a shadow, his spirit reached the forest and filled there with horror. Tolkien noted that Sauron bereft of his bodily form:
"Thus Sauron was constrained to yield up Tol-sirion, *ere bereft of his bodily form he passed away as a black shadow into Taur-nu- Fuin."*
(The History of Middle Earth Vol 11. The War of the Jewels)
Sauron did not lose the tower even when Huan catched him from his throat. He still had his spells on the walls and gates of Minas Tirith. So it was not possible for Luthien to break them so she made a deal with Sauron. The funny thing is that if she just let Huan finish off Sauron (or his bodily form at least), she would not be able to even enter and rescue Beren from there lol
this made me wonder what happen to that great part of himself he poured into the ring when it was destroyed, did that simply, cease to be?
Maybe he can gather that back to himself and is how he return for the Dagor Dagorath.
As far as we know, nothing can truly be destroyed in Tolkien's canon, which is why my running theory is that the ring's power was simply absorbed into the earth and was effectively assimilated into Melkor's corruption. Which might explain why all the races except humans disappeared from Middle Earth after the Third Age, since Sauron's darkness entering the earth on top of what his master already did to it was the straw that broke the camel's back, and no one could withstand the state of the world anymore, even without the tangible threat of a dark lord.
Great stuff as ever Steven, many a lesser man would simply have said yes or no and pleaesed/disgusted half of tthe people, you examined the subject. Thank you.
Even after explaining I will still disgust half of the people 😅
I wonder what happens to Orcs, Trolls, Ents, Giants, hounds (at least one of them), Eagles and a few other birds. And at least one sword. All are speaking of the speaking peoples. (well they speak)
So before watching the video to see if I’m right.
I thought that he didn’t die he just became nothing more than an angry wind, never able to pass on into death but never able to effect the world again.
Great video! I wonder, did the same thing happen to other fallen Maiar, like Saruman or Balrogs?
I wonder about this also, because we know Maiar are immortal outside of Middle Earth. Yet, like Gandalf they can be sent back, but I don't know who or what would send a Balrog back. Tolkien mentions the things that existed before the world and Bombadil has memory of that time. Are they immortal, consider Shelob? I would imagine not but there is a lot of freedom to speculate! Great question!
Great stuff. Coming out just after Easter is coincidence?
Yeah, I didn't even realise it was easter until about 5 o clock on Sunday 😅
Since Sauron poured all his cruelty, malice and will to dominate into the One Ring, shouldn't the remnant spirit should be much kinder and helpful? I like to think of him as a spirit of intellect and total powerlessness, like a philosophy professor.
The cruelty, malice, and will to dominate is just a movie thing. He had the motive to dominate and made a ring for it but it wasn't like removing that part of himself. He removed the greater part of his natural power. The greatest part of his will you could say. Once it was gone, he'd be a shadow of his former self, full of hatred and bitterness
More like a Grievance Studies professor?
So, before his fall in the 3rd Age, was Sauron essentially dead the entire time during the War of the Ring? He didn’t exactly have an incarnate body. Powerful, yes, but still disembodied. So wouldn’t that be equivalent to being dead?
Hmm, well if you think being unable to fully interact with the world would be equivalent to being dead, then sure but Sauron had a physical body and was present in the War of the Ring. He just didn't leave his tower. Maybe better to argue that he was 'dead' until he took on a shape once again. The separation of the body and spirit is death but the enduring spirit would rebuild its strength to take shape again. I'd argue that while Sauron was unable to trouble the world, he was essentially dead but that part is debatable and probably purely down to semantics. I'm definitely one who argues for the act of death happening though.
@@TheRedBook I essentially feel like he was “present” and in the process of rebuilding, but would have greatly accelerated the process with the ring.
I would also agree with you that this would come down to an argument of what it means to be “alive” or “dead” and that might come down to personal spiritual beliefs, or even UPG.
I agree with your first point, that's how I view it.
For the second. I believe that people saying the likes of Sauron couldn't die are basically saying that no one dies in the Legendarium. It hinges on the existence of the spirit and the changing nature of their existence at some moment (such as being violently torn from a body). That's at least how I view it.
@@TheRedBook Well, I don’t necessarily mean that’s how they view Tolkien’s universe. I think it’s how people view the real world, and that would inform their belief of the story. And people insert themselves into the story, which (in my opinion) is likely what Tolkien intended.
Oh yeah, with the real world it's a completely different story. I think death is something different in Tolkien because the spirit endures. I don't think it's the same in the real world.
Fantastic! What are your thoughts on why Sauron used a Ring(physical object) to put his power(Soul/spirit) into. Why was it key to incarnate his essence into the object for power? Was Sauron mimicking the power of Eru, by gaining the ability to combine the spiritual and the physical? Just Curious?
I see it as placing yourself within that which you want to rule. It makes you a part of it. It's why Dark Lords incarnate and don't just rule as "pure spirits" without physical shape. The control over the Incarnates would be far greater if you placed yourself within that world and poured your own power into it in some way, gaining a greater degree of control. Morgoth did this with Morgoth's Ring and Sauron did this with a physical ring - which was possible to make due to the remnants of Morgoth's power that seeped its way into the flesh of Arda. At least, that's how I view it.
@@TheRedBook Very interesting...yes, I've thought this too, as Sauron's physical form, while formidable, had limits. But if he could harness the true power of his spirit form into the physical world he would become unmatched. What's interesting to me was he found a way to do it! He couldn't create like Eru(with the flame Imperishable). But maybe he found some "dark" way, through Morgoth's influence/teachings? Also, didn't Sauron study under Aule? Who also made creations(The Dwarves) without the Flame Imperishable, which didn't workout very well, until Eru intervened?
Presumably any of the Ainur could die permanently if Eru wished them out of existence. Why or why not Eru would or would not do so would make for an interesting video.
"Neutralized" may be the proper term. Able to see anything, unable to do anything. An impotent spirit.
After watching Episode IX of Star Wars and them deciding it was a good idea to bring Palpatine back(clone or no)I'm hoping he is dead because it's just not interesting to defeat the same evil you already defeated. heck, why'd anyone sail into the West if he wasn't gone yet?
Don't worry. Tolkien wasn't a hack. Even when he started his very quickly abandoned sequel, it was the memory of Sauron and the evil seed of Morgoth that brought about new evil. Not a "somehow Sauron returned" lack of creativity.
Morgoth will return having found the secret of the eternal flame and raise Sauron back up to his former power. Together they will conquer middle earth and destroy the Valar.
He's alive and currently resides in the Kremlin
Great Video! Thanks for covering a topic that gets complicated by Ainur attachments. On a r elated note, do you think that the "change" that came over Melian, after the death of Thingol was the ability to let go of her hroa after the ruin of all that had been wrought in that form save for a now mortal daughter, who was soon to die herself? Or, did she have to die a physical death like throwing herself into the sea before returning to OG Lorien?
Interesting question. I hope Steven answers it.
If you read Silmarillion it clearly states that Maiar could move as unclothed spirits among the children of Eru. It specifically refers to Olorin doing that. Melian in her grief perhaps chose to disincarnate and return to Valinor.
@simon... Yes when they choose to self incarnate. The two cases you mentioned are different. Melian became bound to her incarnate form. We can't just say it's as easy as leaving her body and returning West.
@@TheRedBook Yes. This is what I was asking about. When Tolkien talks about being "bound" to a form we tend to think about that binding in terms of Sauron's and Morgoth, the pouring of their spirits into the minions and soldiers of their great armies,and into objects as small as a wedding band or as large as Arda itself. But, with Melian, the "binding" is more relatable and poignant. Those were the arms with which she held Thingol, her love, the breasts that fed her daughter, Luthien, the hands that wove the story of the Ainur into the walls of her home. It was the life of an Elf-Queen of Belariand that bound Melian to her body and the love in her heart that set all of these things in motion. Perhaps her "change" after the death of Thingol was a mercy to make letting go an the transition back to discarnate Maia more bearable.
I wonder if there are therapy sessions West of West with Nienna for Elrond and Celebrian, and Thingol and Melian to help process the horror of losing daughters in a way that no other elf can know. When someone tells me Tolkien is all sunshine and rainbows, it tells me they have not read the Silmarillion. The grief is profound and always accompanies the joy of triumph over the Shadow. Props to Melian, the Istar of Love.
Sauron's final thought before becoming an evil mist:
"Oh, sh*t."
Reduced to a living dream.
Maybe a nightmare or scary story at bedtime :D
Sauron was a man of action to be put in a state weee he can’t do anything is death to him
Does Saruman have any more opportunities to be "clothed" with body? He only had one downfall and de-bodying while Sauron had several.
The Istari came to Middle Earth in hröar similar to the Children of Eru. Their bodies were one form and could die once and for all.
@@Enerdhil Ahhhhh. I get it. thanks.
Perhaps he became a Potato?
Why didn't the ring betray Sam, when orcs were walking past him in Mordor?
@theredbook I have always wondered if saruman actually made a ring, and if he did, did he get instruction from Sauron or learn on his own?? Does Tolkien ever hint at the truth?
I have no reason to doubt that Saruman's ring was genuine but Tolkien says he was missing the 'ring lore' that could only be found in Mordor. It certainly wouldn't have been a ring to challenge Sauron or anything. Arguably it would be his 'essay in the craft' before his knowledge was even greater.
Istari were very limited by what they could do in Middle Earth. Eru put restrictions and limitations on their power or else there could have been six Maiar duking it out in Middle Earth for Arda supremacy.
Did he die?
Aye
😍😍😍👌
Sauron did survive and plagued man-kind again until arrival of JESUS, who gave him free wine.
Would Sauron's "spirit" remain in Middle Earth as a diminished thought of evil to corrupt the minds of men? Would he be recalled to the Halls of Mandos or cast into the Void? Where is he?? Guess I'll stay tuned for part 2...
He basically burned alive and died in absolute agony. The ring was his body
Sauron had a body during The Lord of the Rings. He wasn't a big eye.
*Slight correction: Melkor was an Ainúr, but (being evil) was not counted as one of the Valar.
He was counted among them until he wasn't. And if we're correcting, Ainur is plural. He was an Ainu and a Vala until he was no longer counted among that order.
Everyone knows Sauron didn't die, he couldn't die due to what he was, a Mia. He merely melted into a shadow that can never grow again and merely knaw away at itself in the darkest corners of the world.
Maybe wait until the video is live?
This comment perfectly highlights why this video was needed :D
I just had this argument with someone on social media, it gets way too toxic. This is why we need more content from Red Book on the nature of the Ainur. Sauron dies, Gandalf dies, Melian dies. Heck, even Morgoth dies in the end at the hands of Túrin.
It really just depends on how you define "death." Personally, I think falling asleep counts as death and waking up is like respawning in a video game.
Super serious.
@@David_Fellner What do you do before going to sleep for it to feel like death with further respawning I wonder...
Sauron didn't die.
Yeah he did.
Did you even bother to watch the video before commenting?
Don't guess. Just watch the video.🙄