Númenor | Exploring The Ban of the Valar
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
- An exploration of the Ban of the Valar, the rule set for the race of mortal Men not to sail west to the Undying Lands or set foot upon its shores. Beyond becoming jealous of immortality why did this ban exist? I answer this question and relate it to mistakes made by the Valar and the nature of mankind itself.
► Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
2:31 - The History of Aman
4:39 - The Great Journey of the Elves
8:10 - The Destiny of Elves and Men
9:36 - The Cursed Realm
14:52 - The Corruption of Man
18:08 - Outro and Recommendations
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The End by Tim Kulig
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#tolkien #lore #numenor #valar #elves - Розваги
Telling Men they could sail north, south, or east but not west was like telling a little kid you can have apples, carrots, or celery but not cookies (they all taste good, but cookies are unhealthy for you). The problem was the Valar had no experience of children, so they didn't understand that just saying it wasn't enough. It took Eru moving the cookie jar out of reach.
I wouldn’t entirely agree with that. Because the Ainur had no part in the theme of the Children of Ilúvatar, they are not considered their rulers or masters, but rather like elders. I would say that the Valar were sort of “parents” to the Elves and I think the major reason for the difference in “parenting” between Elves and Men is the fact that Elves were created to be more like in nature to the Ainur. Elves are “immortal”, they are bound to the world until its end, they are supremely wise and beautiful and powerful, they can be exceptionally terrible in their wrath, they are more aware of their environment and more attuned to metaphysical realities. Men on the other hand are practically the opposite.
When you are a first time parent, even though you may have never had any parenting experience prior, you still know what it’s like to be a child because you once were a child. I think it’s the same with the Ainur and Elves. The Ainur were once young and full of awe at the newly made world, learning what there was to learn and all that. So when Elves come along who, though less powerful and majestic, are practically the same as the Ainur, you can imagine that the Ainur had a much easier time communicating with them. Because of their more similar nature, communication between Ainur and Elves is much clearer and better understood. Whereas, these miscommunications and misinterpretations are more likely between Ainur and Men.
Elves have a much stronger relationship with the Ainur. In order to have a strong relationship with someone, there needs to be mutual understanding, and it’s hard to have mutual understanding when those people are very different from each other in nature.
@@morgothbauglir8687 So then in the parent child analogy, men are ultimately emotionally abused younger black sheep. Oh, they should just know that their parents know best and live in the pantry. There is no way the men could know and the Ainur have the insight of boomers.
"It took Eru moving the cookie jar out of reach."
And committing genocide in the process.
@@nicholasmaude6906 so like a typical God got you lol. You destroy the whole island
@Miranda Rensberger 👍🏾👍🏾💯💯💯🔥🔥
Don't think we haven't noticed all the subtle improvements you've been adding. Thanks for the great video!
I'm always tinkering with the look of the videos, I like the new parts I introduced here. Makes things like the extra information boxes neater and less intrusive too.
@@TheRedBook Keep Up the Good Work!!! 🤠👍
This why I feel that of all the Valar, only Ulmo has some understanding of men since he seems the most restless of them dwelling in the outer sea rather in a land of total bliss.
I'd certainly agree that out of all of the Valar, Ulmo understands them best - though, I'd make a case for Melkor - which would really annoy him :D
Yes, Ulmo was the only one of the Valar that actually spent any time near the edain, while they spent a lot of time with the eldar. Even with the latter they made mistakes (their experience with Fëanor should have taught them something about the counterproductiveness of bans), and with the edain they had no frame of reference as they did not know them to any significant degree.
Back with some 'regular' content (as some would put it). I enjoyed exploring The Ban of the Valar and I hope you enjoyed watching. Please feel free to leave your thoughts and comments. I am hoping to do an "Appendices" video at the end of this month and I will directly respond in video to some of the most interesting comments - so I encourage you to comment - especially if you have more questions or want me to elaborate on something. Will see how that goes! Let me know what you think. Thanks, everyone!
Patreon - www.patreon.com/theredbook
The Red Book Podcast - www.anchor.fm/red-book
Can't wait, 54 minutes and counting..
You return with another video! I knew the things Tolkien wrote in Morgoth's Ring, the metaphysical effects of mortal Men dwelling in Arda. But I didn't realise how important the ban was, not just in keeping the Numenoreans safe from what they could never have, but the entire race of Man itself. I agree that The Valar mishandled the Elves, sheltering them in Valinor; instead, after jailing Melkor, they should have actively partnered with Elves to dispel his evils and bring the entirety of Middle-Earth into fruition for Man. But I have no idea how they could have handled Man himself. They chose a select few to have the best of both worlds, and it ended in disaster 3 millennia later. They can't give them immortality, or just abandon them entirely. The Valar chose the middle ground between 2 extremes and it still wasn't enough! As a Christian, it just goes to show me the incorrigibility of Man.
*How about you, Steven? If you were one of The Valar or even a Maia of similar stature to Olorin, how would you have set out to relate with Man from The Second Age onwards, after everything that happenedduring The First Age?*
I’ve never been very convinced by the argument that the ban served the purpose of preventing men from becoming envious; that happens anyway, and was probably inevitable. More convincing to me is the notion of men not being content in Aman itself, which seems strange perhaps to us moderns but I think Tolkien was onto a deep insight about human nature with that.
Had the valar been the only residents, and hadn't invited the elves over. There wouldn't really be anyone to envy nearly as much. Especially as it sounds as if that was the original plan anyway. With Aman being more as a realm of thr gods or some other such thing.
Because Eru designed their spirits/souls that way. A Man's spirit is not confined in Arda itself. That's why nothing in Arda could 'truly' satisfy a man soul/spirit, even Aman. An elf spirit is built different, they find bliss in anything beautiful in Arda. They are just contented with smelling flowers, creating beautiful gardens, perfecting their crafts, etc. A lingering eternity of static perfection in Arda is 'heaven' to them while Men will find it suffocating and tormenting. That's why Elves only treat Men as guests in this world. It's their home and Men are only here for a quick visit.
@@ArJay1688 It’s the world of men too, just not their permanent home apparently.
Man cannot live happily in a paradise. They MUST have a challenge to struggle against. People with what we would think is a 'perfect life' are unhappy and invent a problem--even to the point of destroying their perfect life--so that they will have something to struggle against.
Therefore if men were in Valinor, they would be dissatisfied, unhappy, and would reject it. The Matrix got this exactly correct where Agent Smith explains the first version of the matrix was a paradise, but people would not accept it, so it was changed to a gritty, imperfect world, which they did accept.
A similar feature is that man must have a frontier, and undiscovered country, a place to explore for the first time. That is why the Numenorians would eventually sail west, no matter what the Valar did, and no matter how noble the Numenorians were.
Tolkien's thoughts on the strength of the spirit and body are good. The human spirit does become weary with age. Many old people express being tired of life and are willing to pass on. He is also right that the body and spirit can be in conflict, pulling the the union of body & spirit in different directions. A strong body, unweakened & unwearied by age, certainly would overwhelm a tired & spent spirit, and the result would be animalistic being, acting on instinct, impulse and unbridled desire.
It's an interesting parallel that Melkor was supposed to be the vala to begin creation, with the other valar being the ones to continue it on, but he was corrupted ant turned against Eru's plan. And then when we get to the elves, who are supposed to start the world for men to continue we have the rest of the valar taking an action against Eru's plan in response to Melkor which once again messed up the beginning of the world.
Humans do not want any limits set on their bliss. For many, the fact of the limit turns the bliss into a festering frustration. This is connected to the “gift” of Eru to men: that through death, those who trust him and accept with peace and faith this gift-the seeming limit of mortality-go through it to true everlasting life. And those who would break the limit and seize “immortality” with violence, were destroyed. Tolkien was a master in showing these paradoxes over and over in his writing. Remember how Finrod gently instructs Andreth on the meaning of the word “hope”? It is trust that bears us beyond what we see with earthly eyes.
Truly superb, Steve. Thank you again for your thoughtful analyses; you always seem to dig so much deeper than most other experts.
This channel is excellent! The Tolkien fandom NEEDS The Red Book- This channel provides insight and wisdom behind all things Middle-Earth at depths the others can't reach...
This was the best consideration of the mistakes of the Valar, a touchy subject by scholars when they can't seperate divine with perfection, and who forget that from the ranks of the Valar, come the greatest mistakes of the fallen. Morgoth made mistakes. Manwe cannot be free from mistakes.
I also think it's becuase many still read the Valar as being Gods - even though if they existed we'd most lkely worship and revere them as such. Tolkien may say 'gods' every now and again to determine who is speaking about but they were fallible and clearly made several blunders. The whole point is that they'd want to learn from those mistakes and sometimes have the wisdom to know that attempting to correct them would mean doing nothing.
Funny how everything they were trying to prevent happened anyway. There truly was no way this could possibly have ended well.
This channel has quickly become among my favorites. It’s such a hidden treasure!
I wish it wasn't so hidden! 😅
To be fair, 14k subs isn’t all that hidden lol. I just meant I wish more people knew of this channel! It’s great work and I recommend it often!
@@Feanor2024 Thank you for that :D and yeah it's certainly come a long way from last year. Still a long way to go!
This is one of my favorite videos because it clearly explores the downside to immorality that I think exists in actual Earth and not just Middle-earth
Fascinating video to watch, I quite enjoy watching videos about Numenor
Thank you so much for this video, I craved that someone so well versed digged dip in such important matter who seemed so "unfair" apparently
Very thought provoking and a very intteresting conclusion arises to me, namely that the Valar were very considerably more fallible than one might expect when dealing with the greater issues. Given that Manwe supposedly lnows a great deal of what is really happening and has a great understanding of the Music, in which all the Ainur took part, this suggests something more to explore. If he/they are so knowledgable and powerful, how is it that their mistakes are so profound?
Thanks Andrew, and that is a good question. I will bookmark it to maybe answer in a bit of detail when it comes to my end of month response video. However, I can basically say that it could be related to the old "great power great responsibility" issue. The Valar deal with matters so enormous and consequential that all ends can't be accounted for and any mistake can have enormous implications. Many of the mistakes are also made due to innocence, naivity, and pity for others over a cold logical approach. I'll try to answer this more clearly when I respond properly in a video.
Began watching some of your videos today, these are like perfection in my eyes. Long time no see! Both the content and editing. Perfection. I cant believe you have not had more traction. But the algorithm is what it is I guess. Nonetheless, I hope you are doing great Steven!
Long time no speak :D . I had a nice boost in September/October - which happened in 2021 as well. Still, it's disappointing that it's not carried on but I still enjoy making the videos. And I am still interested in those assets you have, we didn't talk more about that (at least some that aren't publically available!)
And hope you are doing well, still hoping you return with a video!
@@TheRedBook We can discuss those assets on discord tomorrow if interested!
By far the best Tolkien channel. A true Tolkien devotee. 👍 He understands the intent of Tolkien as closely as Yavanna does the Two Trees and Feanor does the Silmarils...and as Fingolfin's fearlessness and bravery showed the Eagles of Manwe what purety of spirit could reside in the Noldor (as did Glorfindel of the Eldar and Gandalf-Olorin of the Maiar)
Excellent as always and highly illuminating!
Good stuff as ever Steven. I have always viewed the ban in a different way. Things outside the legendarium seem to me to be responsible. !. A reflection of Tolkiens catholocism temptation and corruption must exist.. 2. His desire to tell the tale of Atlantis, the fall of Numenor was intended as a reflection of the truth he found in the legend of Atlantis, truth un myth was an obsession for him. 3. and finally the demands of drama, without conflict there is no drama. Of course none of this makes your astute vies of the internal consistency withn the legendariun any less true or important as reasons for these things. Thanks and keep up the good work.
The saga of Númenor is my favourite part of the whole of Tolkien's writings, but it is fraught with contradictions. The dangers that the Valar sought to avoid all existed anyway. Men had already lived among the Elves for hundreds of years and I'm sure many of them envied their immortal counterparts, even if they were friends. Tuor was fostered by elves and grew up among them. Wouldn't he have sensed that they were different? Beor grew old while seeing Finrod remain young and healthy. The Valar couldn't interfere with men? But they lengthened their lifespan and gave the Edain a kingdom within sight of the Undying Lands and Elves visited them constantly, bringing gifts out of the West! It doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.
Interestingly, Ulmo does not seem to have approved of the creation of the Island. So much so that he did not participate in the geological creation, it was Osse.
Okay that is a bit of a stretch but still a very compelling possibility!
I wouldn't come to that conclusion myself but I do know that even in the earliest drafts it was always Osse who did this, which is interesting.
Deep insights my friend. Awsome stuff.
As long as Eru's gift of death to Men is in humans (which the Valar had no power to take from them) it is impossible for them to become immortal by living in the Undying Lands. They can only have a better quality but limited life. The strife between fëa and hröa could lead to the corruption of the soul which could again serve the evil will of Melkor which is why the Valar may not have wanted Men to come to the Undying Lands. The fact that the Valar foresaw that the souls of Men with a soul type not connected to Arda would suffer with immortality may also have been influential in their decision.
Thanks for the video love the channel 🙃
This channel is exceptional 👏🏼
Interesting that the Noldor were not supposed to pursue Morgoth for revenge of the stolen Silmarills, and the Numenorians were not supposed to set foot in the undying lands for fear of the jealousy that might arise between the two proud kindreds. Now that i think about it the Dwarves also have their downfall of pride with the Nauglamir all reflecting Morgoths original sin of wanting to have it all so to speak.
Amazing as always !
I think the reason why Tolkien wrote the story like this is because it’s the wish of all men and women on earth to have more time.
Excellent work
Engagement comment for the algorithm. Great video.
You opened my eyes
Oh I really enjoyed the soundtrack on this one 😄
I didn't even notice the music. I was too busy concentrating on what Steven was saying.😅
Excellent essay. I watched one earlier to but I had to subscribe, recent TV events requires it....so does my curiosity regarding the book, the silmarilions. I had a lot of questions regarding the numenorians and the war on the western front, I still have more questions to be answered so I'm definitely watching more.
Cheers mate .
Best channel on UA-cam.
Also kind of interesting how there are some apparent contradictions later in the Third Age, with all of the Ring-bearers, including those of mortal race, coming to Valinor (or at least Eressea). You wonder why they were allowed such a privilege, while the Numenoreans in general were not. Also there is the figure of Tuor, who I think is the only Man to be made immortal? Or rather is the only person originally entirely of the race of Men to be judged one of the Firstborn, and therefore effectively a man made immortal. What is so special about him in particular that he gets this grace?
Hi Andrew, your questions seem to be the most popular based on this video - quite a few have mentioned mortals sailing West and also Tuor. I plan a response video at the end of the month to respond to questions and comments like this, so I will hopefully be able to explain why. But I also feel that since this is a point of confusion for many, that a dedicated video should also be planned - one explaining the Tuor situation and another explaining Tol Eressea, Valinor, mortals of the Third Age, what would happen to them and why this was allowed, etc. I hope that's enough in lieu of a proper answer in this comment!
like all the fellowships deserved such a privilidge, but for merry,pippins and ESPECIALLY aragon was denied..
@@rhythmicmusicswap4173 - I wouldn't say Aragorn was denied as he embraced the Gift of Men fully. He died when he felt it was time for him to die, like his ancestors did.
@@rhythmicmusicswap4173 It seems Aragorn had to be the one to take up the role of the returned king, not king of all middle earth literally, but the greatest king in middle earth and the one to set the example for the rest of the race of Men. So he could not go to Valinor. Can’t be both king of men and get to go to Valinor, not that he would’ve wanted to, even after surrendering the crown. I think the rest was the consequence of being ring bearers, and/or immortals. With the one exception of Gimli the dwarf which is an interesting one.
@@rhythmicmusicswap4173 None of those worthies ever requested to sail into the West (for a visit or for keeps) so they can hardly be said to have been 'denied' and more than any other mortal of the Third Age.
Sorry man. I was looking forward to this and I was waiting for the premiere and I a hour before I my phone switched off to no power
No need to apologie :D The premiere is just a little bonus thing.
@@TheRedBook
Been playing catch up with lots of vids
Manwe did a piss-poor job of properly explaining the Ban to the newly settled Numenoreans at the beginning of the Second Age.
calling the elves to Valinor was kinda the easy way out, rather than staying and fixing Middle Earth. Some took to it better than others tho, like the Minyar.
Also explains a bit more why so many wanted to stay, because they were supposed to. Though wouldn't they have to leave eventually or be diminished when humans came?
About the Valar not knowing much of humans though, why not since Manwe had such great vision?
It's just due to their unique nature. Even someone like Manwe doesn't know everything inherently. We see that when he fails to understand what evil and deceit is until he is a victim of it. The Valar understand Elves quite a bit but then the mysterious race of Men come alone - different in nature. Both races were the thought of Eru and not the Valar but at least Elves were quite like the Valar when it came to their nature and destiny. Men were foreign. The fact they were to inherit the world and also left it when they died was just strange to the Valar and they didn't know how much to interfere with their progress.
Absolutely fantastic video to come back with after an extended break The Red Book.
A question: despite this ban, some mortals did make the journey to live in Valinor; Tuor the first (and potentially a unique case), but in the third age we have Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli. Do you think that these cases complicate this picture somewhat? While not strictly men (again, noting the special case of Tuor here...) they are still mortals coming to Valinor - does the concern you outline not apply to them?
Hi Oliver, thanks for the great follow-up. I think I will add this to the list of Appendices follow-up comments that I will answer with more detail on camera. However, for the Bilbo, Frodo Third Age cases it's an easier one to answer due to none of them actually going to Valinor itself. They went to Tol Eressëa in sight of Aman. Tolkien tells us this in Letter 297:
"Frodo … as a special grace … [was] granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in Eressea, the Solitary Isle in sight of Aman"
I can go into a bit more detail in the video with the reasons Frodo was allowed to go, etc, but this should answer the main part of your question. Tuor is a bit more complex to the point where he might need his own video since he causes so much debate!
@@TheRedBook If Tuor and Idril were in Valinor, why didn't they plead the case for Men and Elves as Earendil did? And why aren't they even mentioned when Earendil and Elwing reach Valinor?
@@CarolinaPine Earendil pleading is very symbolic. One of the Half-elven and one descended from all Three Houses of the Edain. He also comes at a time when Morgoth has basically won in Middle-earth. It is the last attempt, a figure of hope representing Morgoth's enemies. As for why they aren't mentioned, well the text itself is pretty brief. The whole meeting of Earendil and Eonwe with the prayer being granted is a few lines. There's a lot that wasn't mentioned :D
@@TheRedBook
I'm glad you say none of the mortals get to go to Valinor. I have always thought they would have to be relegated to Tol Eressëa.
@@TheRedBook
Yes!! Absolutely do a whole video on Tour being able to live in Valinor forever! 🙏😁
Fascinating video, always thought that if a man were to live in Aman it might drive him bonkers, and you did a far better job elucidating the point, though I'm not sure how much responsibility the Valar have (not saying they aren't guilty to an extent, 'cause they are) but man's nature is man's nature, I'm not certain that any could have predicted Numenor might turn out the way it did. Though they likely should have, considering how apparent it eventually was when they turned away from the Elves and the old customs established by the likes of the early kings.
I see people saying that Númenor was already corrupted before Sauron arrived on the island. For the island was in a moral decay with a colonialist-mercantilist posture. I do not agree. I think Númenor was abandoning the elven qualities and the ethereal aspect that made the island a blessed place (in relation to the cultural decay of Middle-earth), that is, the Númenóreans were taking on much more of a human vision with flaws and selfishness. Númenor was more human and less elvish.
I don't necessarily disagree with your Elvish to Human thoughts but I'd still define what happened as corruption, especially when Tolkien describes the Shadow falling on Numenor as early as the 11th King. Corruption being the changing from an original state into some debased version of it. Numenor changed greatly before Sauron's arrival - seeking tribute, conquering other lands, caring about treasures, becoming jealous of the Elves, wanting to sail West, etc. I don't think Sauron can be blamed for corrupting the Numenoreans alone. To me, he gave them a massive push that they would have eventually have made themselves given enough time. Obviously, we can blame Sauron for what he did to them but he took advantage of a civilisation already falling. At least, those who were not Faithful - who still held those ideals from Numenor's first days. I don't see Men of Numenor returning to some original Mannish state - meaning no corruption. I see them squandering a blessing.
If only they explained properly don't you think
New subscriber 🥰
Thanks very much :D
I don't get how the Numenoreans got so powerful in the first place, so as to be able to threaten Valinor itself. It seems that everyone who basks in the majesty of Valinor or Doriath/Melian become mightier somehow but i don't quite understand how this works. I wonder if TRB has tought about making a video on this?
It’s not that they magically become mightier. Their strength was in their numbers and technology up to that point. Numenor steadily grew in power, and knowledge it’s not like they just became so powerful over night.
The Numenoreans individually were already far more powerful than the 'lesser men', they were physically larger and a lot stronger and longer lived for a start. They didn't use cavalry in battle because they could run as fast as horses and carry just as much on their backs. A warrior-nation of such Men who dedicated themselves to expanding their navy did indeed threaten to invade Valinor - although it was obviously their hubris dooming them to ruin.
Summary: Tolkien conceived of Men as going hollow like in Dark Souls, but before Dark Souls was a thing.
Haha yeah that's a good way of putting it. Big souls fan myself and didn't think of that comparison.
The Melkor Element is a parallel drawn by Tolkien to the Christian concept of original sin and the material world being corrupted by nature for "My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom", that and all men that existed at the time worshipped in that temple to Morgoth, making all men in existence after them, carriers of original sin.
Sauron did play a huge part...so things are greatly up for debate wither or tither....
He played a huge part in finally pushing them over the edge but I still think that given some more years, or even centuries, Numenor would have broken the Ban.
@@TheRedBook Yeah your right...I forgot about thier changing behaviour in middle earth.
good vid. never really done this 'premiere' thing
I do it sometimes when I'm free at the time the video will go live and especially if it's maybe a bit longer than usual videos.
I have a hard time forgiving the Valar for not sending Eonwe to counter the teachings of Sauron while he dwelt in Numenor. He was one of theirs, was on the loose because of them, and it was beyond their capacity to resist him long term. This argument struggles in the Third Age because "oh but they sent the Wizards". In the Second Age.....I have questions.
One has to wonder, if the Summon was an error from the Valar, why didn't Eru prevent it? And notice how the One himself, once he was called to intervene directly, removed the Blessed Realm from the circles of the World. One can only imagine what might have happened had Aman been removed at the same time as Elenna was raised from the depths. Would the Numenoreans have remained in bliss as long as they did, or would they have fallen even faster?
The Valar had the free will to summon the Elves and the Elves had the free will to reject the summons - as some did. As I say in the video though, Elves had not long been in this world and many were overwhelmed by the contact of the Valar and felt they had to go with Orome to Aman.
Eru doesn't always step in to intervene. The Numenorean assault was a very special case - as I explain in the video I link - the Valar themselves directly asked him for help by giving up their authority over Aman. No such statement was made earlier in the tale, so Eru would let things play out as they would.
I wonder if the Deliverer of Gifts, Jeff Bezos, will allow this key aspect of the Numenorean/undying lands desire to be fairly covered seeing how he is actually at this moment funding immortality research?
It won`t work. Entropy is baked into the nature of the physical world as it stands. And even if it were not, mind uploading would only be a copy, not an extension of the mind that it came from (assuming it even is possible which, I also doubt).
It is at best a long self-made prison cell awaiting the Just Judge.
I know its said that Manwe best understood the Will of Eri but I feel like that attribute should be given to Ulmo. At least when it came to how best to deal with the children of Eru. When it comes to understanding men though..... Melkor is the Valar who deserves that.
TRB and the rest who see this, I'd recommend checking out a song that recently came out here on UA-cam: "Ar-Pharazôn" by Faldoror Laridon.
This is kind of similar to some concepts in the Bible regarding the nature of sin and the need for the souls of men to be reborn in sinless bodies in order to be granted eternal life following in the example and image of Yahuah and Yahusha (the Son of Man) Elohim. And how sin passed down to effect the even the decendents of Adam and Eve's children even if they walked nearly perfect and righteously like the prophet Enoch in the book of First Enoch and Jubilees they would still need to pass away in their first bodies so their spritis to be reborn with eternal life.
I am aware it is not exactly but I am pointing out the similarities which is probably what Jrr Tolkien might have reflected on since he was catholic but one who reflected on many themes and understanding natural Biblical concepts along other stories.
so when Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and possibly Gimli went to the Undying lands, they were actually cursed by it and suffered?
Further question, unrelated however. It has been hinted or written (sadly I can't recall the passage or book in HoME) that the exiled elves returning to Aman from Middle-Earth after the first age were commanded to settle in Eressea. Either they were fully forgiven or they were not. I can't imagine Galadriel being denied entry to visit her father in Tirion or her mother's kin in Alqualonde. Did I dream this or is there any evidence to support it^ And if so, what was Tolkien's justification^
This is something I will probably respond to in more detail when I do my end of month video responding to comments and questions but to provide a brief answer now -
"And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest."
I think Tolkien combined Atlantis with the Garden of Eden... The Numenorians had everything- but they could go to Valinor. And like Eve and Adam were tempted, except over many centuries until at last the Numenorians bit that "apple" by literally invading Valinor and besieging Tirion. Finally Illuvatar went biblical on their asses and this is where Atlantis comes in- an entire island continent lost to a great disaster.
To be fair I think Numenor deserved it because they were conquering Middle Earth, enslaving Men, robbing peoples of their wealth, cutting down woods with reckless abandon for their ships and homes, engaged in death cults and performed human sacrifice on a regular and massive scale. Had it continued the Numenorians would have been worse than Sauron.
Problem is the wisdom of the Valar went over the Numenorians' heads, it often goes over many Tolkien reader's heads! Men could not live in the Undying Lands as it would only torment them, but the Valar failed to understand that man must try everything, even forbidden things, to know for the sake of knowing. To be fair the Numenorians kept the faith for at least a millennium and a half.
Perhaps the Valar could have allowed a small group of Numenorians to stay in Aman so as to directly experience the torment of a mortal living in the immortal lands, and then have those Numenorians return to report back home and discourage others?
The novelty of life and the ignorance of youth can lead to profound foolishness.
That is why the Numenoreans fell. In my opinion.
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For the algorithm.
OK but, if Melkor never janked everything up in middle earth, wouldnt all of middle earth have been perfectly crafted by the Valar? Then all of Aman would be Valinor essentially. Then where would man go?
I get what you are saying and it's a good point but Aman itself was basically a construct of immortals FOR immortals. The Elves fit in naturally as the nature of the Valar shaped the nature of Aman. Middle-earth in turn (where some Elves saw time their as swift) was not designed specifically for immortals. Men can naturally dwell there even if Morgoth hadn't tainted Arda. The plan of the Valar was not to dwell with the Children of Illuvatar in Middle-earth, they would have left, just not as swiftly as they did when Melkor forced them out.
@@TheRedBook So if Melkor hadn't tainted Arda, the Valar still would have cordoned off some if it to make Valinor, and forbade man to go there? And if elves were supposed to wake and live in middle earth, that means they were kind of doomed to live in the dying (mortal) land, while man, seeing the immortality of the elves would have still been driven mad by the example and allure of immortality... Maybe ol' Melkor did Eru a favor?
@@planepantsgames1791 Na, I didn't say Middle-earth would be for mortals, I said that the land of the Valar wouldn't be for mortals. Middle-earth was fit for Elves and Men but Aman wasn't fit for Men. Elves were supposed to teach and leave the world to Men and head away from Middle-earth naturally. It didn't happen naturally, the Valar sped the process up considerably, sundering Elves.
@@TheRedBook Thanks! That makes more sense. I guess as a human, it's hard to see how the Valar and the elves would have spun the concept of human mortality as "a good thing, actually" in a way that would be 100% convincing. I guess that's what living in Melkor's ring does to you.
@@TheRedBook so ironically melkor was the one who made possible to men to live,because in the unmarred arda(all arda like aman) men were unfitting ,also because melkor stole the silmarill the valr created the sun,or else the men would have weaken in he complet dark ..it basically seems nothign at the beggning adn not only done by the valr was done for humans
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Some assorted thoughts and questions:
1) You say that when Melkor destroyed the Two Lamps, all the Valar together could not defeat him. How is it then that earlier when Tulkas first came to Arda that the Valar were able to force Melkor to withdraw beyond the Walls of Night?
2) I'm somewhat confused as to why inviting the elves to live in Aman was a mistake. I thought the War for the Sake of the Elves and the journey of the elves to Aman overlapped in time. Also, even though Melkor was imprisoned at the end of the war, other evil Ainur like Sauron and the balrogs were still free to wreak havoc. Without the knowledge many of the elves learned in Valinor, it looks to me like they would have been overmatched on their own even without Melkor's presence. Finally, some ages later, the Legendarium says the elves had to leave Middle-Earth or fade into near nothingness. What changed?
3) If the elves had remained in Middle-Earth wouldn't they in effect have been slowly going to Aman anyway as they died in combat or due to some accident and went to the Halls of Mandos?
4) It seems to me that men would have eventually found out about Valinor even if Númenór had never existed and no men had been given extended life spans. The elves knew of the Valar. Unless the Valar decided to keep Melkor imprisoned forever, it's hard to see how he doesn't return to Middle-Earth at some point and the War of Wrath ends up happening in some shape or form at some point. Even if at some point elves and men emerge free (more or less) from the shadow, at some point men will start sailing around Arda and some will go far enough west to reach Aman until the world is reshaped. Even then you still are going to have men being envious of the elves in Middle-Earth for their apparent immortality.
Hi, some detailed questions here - sorry if my responses are brief but I may bring up some of these points in my response video. I'll try to answer so I take the time to respond to your comment you have taken the time to write out.
1 - When Tulkas first arrived, he was new to the world and Melkor fled after a long conflict. Tulkas did not actually defeat Melkor at this time like many assume. His arrival caused Melkor to flee. Even though Melkor feared Tulkas, one who did not fear Melkor, Tolkien's text in HoMe is clear that Melkor could still not be defeated with the Valar together at this time. Melkor fleeing is not an indication that if he stood his ground then he'd have been defeated. When Tulkas and co come later, Melkor has already started to diminish through Morgoth's Ring and can now be physically dealt with - again, no indication that Melkor was aware that he would have not been defeated earlier - it is Tolkien telling us this in commentary. Basically, Tulkas gets praised way too much for Melkor's fear of him by many readers.
2 - I wouldn't want to assume anything about being overmatched, who knows what Sauron would have done in this scenario? But no, Elves were not meant to be brought to Aman at this point. It's got a lot to do with the Elves being sundered, which wouldn't have happened if many hadn't left Middle-earth and became great among the great. They'd have all remained together. The journey of the Elves to Aman happened because the Powers moved to Aman and wanted them to come.
3 - They would after the Valar had moved to Aman. Remember, Aman was uninhabited until the Valar moved there. But Elves weren't meant to die in combat or anything like that - it's unnatural - but when they do they are still encouraged to go to Aman to reach the Halls of Mandos - but still not forced. Elves can remain in Middle-earth and fade if they wish. It still doesn't change the swiftness of their invite to Aman, them being encouraged to move on from MIddle-earth happened way before it was naturally meant to happen - at a time when they were to leave the world in the hands of Men.
4 - A lot of hypotheticals there so I am unsure of giving definitive yes or no answers. In my own opinion, a fall of Man was going to happen because of the stain left by Morgoth in the first place. It's entirely possible that what you say may have happened because Middle-earth was not meant to be stained in the first place. And the War of Wrath may have happened at some point anyway, the Last Battle - what we get in The Silmarillion is taken from thoughts and earlier versions of a far greater batlte that would have taken place long after. It's not as Tolkien would have written The War of Wrath - it's one reason why it's so swift and short, with parts like Tulkas' return removed, etc.
@@TheRedBook Thank you!
i still cant enterely blame numenoreans for the downfall of Numenor ,they broke the ban of the Valar because they were afraid of death and the Valar didnt gave them the whole truth about what happened after they died,and even if they did they gave them no proof to rely on.
Of course. It all ends up being about "faith". Mistakes made on all sides and I suppose it's easier to say the Numenoreans and the Valar were to blame for numerous mistakes.
@@TheRedBook what about Frodo,Gimli and Sam? they were mortal and they went to Tor Eressea,not in Valinor but very near it, what happened to them?
@@Elia-fn8jv - Still not in Aman though (technically, though Tolkien used the term for Eressea a couple of times), a few people have asked about these figures but the circumstances are very different. I will answer this properly in my response video I will make at the end of the month.
It is quite interesting in comparing that in The Silmarillion Melkor/Morgoth is given much more power greater then the Valar and has alot of liberated free reign to do what he wants yet his reign is cut short but his legacy still resides on Arda through his corruption of the land with his power that was allowed to happen.
While in the Bible Gadre'el/Lucifer/Mastema or Satan is nowhere near as strong as the Seven Archangels not even mentioned being one of them and after his lie to Adam and Eve he is heavily punished for his evil deeds after the garden of Eden, he is stript of his ranking among the angels and kicked from the Garden and he is retrained and loses his most of angelic powers to be brought lower then even the beasts of the fields unable to physically hurt mankind not without Yahuah's approval and Michael retrains him showing he not as strong as the leader of the Archangels. And yet he is still capable of manipulating the world greatly to this day in his hatred of mankind, his lawless pride, and delusions of being the god of the world even thinking he could beat the Archangels in the War in Heaven in Revelations until his destruction where everything he had wrought comes crashing down while Yahuah preserves the righteous from his evil.
One is given alot more power in his world while the other is retrained and not given such liberty to destructively reign as Melkor did but has a different objective that is corrupting people to being sinful and wicked with a force of disembodied nephilim spirits serving him to commit to this goal until the day of their destruction. Shows how spiteful and unforgiving some beings can be.
Interesting thoughts, I think Tolkien did that on purpose he said Lord of The Rings is a Catholic work but he wasn’t a fan of allegory, so he still used original ideas and things from other religions and folklore.
@@justchilling704
I often wonder if he looked pasted even Catholicism and looked at other scriptures. As the doctrines of catholicism often ignore such stuff like First Enoch or Jubilees quite often. You could ask a catholic what a nephilim or a Watcher fallen angel is and they probably wouldn't know.
@@thorshammer7883 I noticed you mentioned those things and was pleasantly surprised you knew of such terms. And yes sadly a a lot of Catholics are not very familiar with their terms at all. One scholar I like who talks about such things is Michael Heiser.
@@justchilling704
It is unfortunate the Catholic theology is heavily flawed and so is their doctrines which has led to much confusion and they give too much power to a being like Satan which is not his name but only a title which even the Watchers once referred to as. And their version of hell is almost occult really in design. I get my information from The God Culture and the true origins of the Catholic church isn't exactly should we say faithful to Yahusha. They are heavily unaware of the consequences of these doctrines and their true nature actually stem from.
And the nephilim they are some of the most evil monsters imaginable so much so they are even worse then Tolkien's orcs by a long shot. And they continued what Watchers were doing but on a worse scale.
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Question: If Morgoth came back somehow and ruled over Arda with Sauron as his right hand Maia, do you think Sauron would be jealous of Morgoth and eventually try to overthrow him, or does he worship Morgoth unconditionally, knowing him as the one true dark lord?
This was the question you were talking about in the chat? I'll write it down for the video I was talking about.
Sauron waited for three ages before Melkor was released from Mandos. When Melkor/Morgoth returned to Beleriand Sauron and the Balrogs and orcs we're ready for him. If Sauron we're ever going to make his own kingdom without Morgoth, he should have done it then.
@@TheRedBook it was indeed. Thanks!
@@Enerdhil - There's a big difference though. Even with ages in Mandos, Melkor would be released. The whole pushed through the Door of Night has some finality to it that scared even Sauron. Disregarding prophecies that Sauron may or may not have been aware of regarding Melkor's return. I wouldn't compare the two scenarios so directly.
@@TheRedBook
My post was just suggesting that Sauron would be loyal to Morgoth to the end. That was my point. Are you saying my reference doesn't support that thesis?
@13:50 ' the nature of man would be come beastlike if mortals were allowed to remain there'
sounds like the origin story of fo4 feral ghouls...
@14:05 'where a strong spirit would eject itself from the body.' sounds like the origin story of Gregor Clegane (or his epilogue)
Given what happened with the Noldor, and how so many Men were corrupted due to jealousy of immortality anyway, the Ban should have applied to both races or neither. Letting just the Elves in was very obviously going to cause problems.
Is the taint of Arda by Morgoth the Tolkien Middle Earth version of Orginal Sin?
Probably. I would say from my perspective Eru gave Melkor too much power and authority when compared to how Yahuah treats Gadre'el(Satan's original name) with a serious harsh punishment, restraining him, and making him lower then the Beasts of the field which means taking away most of his angelic powers after what he did to Adam and Eve. Compared to Gadre'el, Melkor gets a near free pass with time given to him even if it is a short reign.
One similarity I have to say that both share is how they are spiteful and unregretful they are of their lawless actions. Though Satan becomes more insane and full of hatred directed at Mankind, the Archangels, and Yahuah and is so petty even knowing his doom which he brought upon himself he will bring as many down with him as he can towards the very end while being delusional about it.
Morgoth's Ring really amplifies the potential for a fall but Tolkien talks about such a fall in Letters. He mentions the first fall as appearing nowhere but a rumour being that they fell under the dominion of the Enemy - and that some repented. We do actually read about such a thing in the Tale of Adanel which basically is the Tolkien "Fall of Man" story. With some Men even believing that this fall meant their lives were shortened and that they were far closer to Elves in the beginning. I have long planned a video about this but in the meantime you should find the Tale of Adanel and you will certainly associate it Man leaving the Garden, so to speak.
@@TheRedBook
Interesting that would be more intriguing to learn. It seems to me as though Eru left humans who had no idea what was happening to be left undefended when they didn't understand anything almost like he abandoned them. Without extra context which makes Eru seem like a bad father. I hope Tolkien has more lore about this fall of man.
How do the three of the race of "men" who did end up living in Aman, namely Bilbo, Frodo and Sam, fit into your analysis of how the undying lands would have corrupted us? Granted they were unusual men coming there to heal in peace, though Sam was relatively ordinary and unaffected by the ring during his time in Middle-earth.
None of them went to Aman. They went to Tol Eressea. Though, I will be answering this fully in a response video later in the month since its a popular question related to this :)
Why would Eressea be different from Aman?
It's not the Blessed Realm. It used to be further east and was moved closer to Aman but is not of Aman.
@@TheRedBook But why was it removed from the world, then? I'm not sure why there is a distinction. Does it still have the stain of Melkor in it? If it does, why welcome Frodo/Bilbo/etc. to it?
Wasnt it Tulkas laughter and precsence in Arda that made Melkor flee into the Void?
Yes but people then start to think Tulkas somehow defeated Melkor at this stage which he didn't. Melkor fled but returned to ruin the Spring of Arda and ALL the Valar left. He planned his actions around Tulkas being asleep or otherwise incapacitated. Still, Tolkien is clear that at this time, the entire might of the Valar could not have constrained Melkor. Tulkas manages it later when Melkor's power had started to wane.
@@TheRedBook Thank you for answering me :) I have learned a lot from your videos. Greetings from Norway
How do you pronounce Illuin? I can't find a legit answer anywhere, I would assume the stressed syllable would be the u? So ill-oo-in, but I think I is usually if not always pronounced as "ee" so is it, eel-oo-een or eel-oo-in? Or are there only two vowels? eel-ween?
The "il" means all and it's pretty much the same way you'd say the "il" in Illuvatar. Luin means "blue" .. So best way I can type it out would be --- - "ill--oo--in"
Also, the 1st l would be part of the 1st syllable, and the 2nd l would be part of the second syllable, and both would be pronounced.
@@TheRedBook @Ian Jones thanks y'all! Appreciate it, I love trying to fully understand exactly how to pronounce Tolkien's works!
@@stairwaytoholiday There were other comments disagreeing with my own pronounciation but I don't know where they went! A site that is pretty good for pronounciation (usually) is the Encyclopedia of Arda, they usually have an etymology part for strange names and places too.
The valar was lucky that those was men and not Klingon at Numenor...
So that's twice that the Valar foolishly created a major problem by bringing the Children of Illuvitar out of Middle Earth. The Edain should have been left in Middle Earth in the 2nd Age, where they could have helped to lift up the other Men of Middle Earth.
Oh no what a curse to live in a blessed realm without any strife or disease! Yes, surrounded by immortals, but so what? 100 years of life in perfect health and social harmony is far better than anything on Middle Earth. I understand Tolkien’s Catholic predilections to justify the unjustifiable, but it’s very hard for a non-religious person to accept this pretzel reasoning.
But I explain that it isn't how it would go. The human living to 100 wouldn't want to die at 100 and this would cause strife between the body and the spirit. Also, those 100 years for the human would be unbelievably swift in his/her own mind because they are dwelling in a place where it would seem to them that time is unchanged - but they would grow to maturity themselves, rapidly. Their nature being unable to exist in a land built by immortals for immortals.
But how was gathering the Elves to Aman a mistake, really? Morgoth had tainted the matter of Earth, which would have caused the Elves to fade if they stayed in Middle-earth; leaving Middle-earth for Aman was always their only way to survive, even before they awoke. Even the Rings of Power could only delay this process.
It sounds like the mortals Frodo and Bilbo didn't have a good life in Valinor!
They wouldn't have reached Valinor but Tol Eressea :)
In fantasy, assaulting Heaven never seems to work...
could i just have one peek please eru ? 😀
I disagree heavily with the philosophical implications but good video.
Just because some god lobbed mortality at you does not make you king. It comes down to belief if you think that is "fair" or not. You could say everything diminished in the third age. The supposed chosen of Eru were less than the Elves. They were less talented, less beautiful, and less long lived. The only thing man had more of is the will to act in the moment. But that could be said to be because we do not have a nice cushy isle to flee to.
That's the thing though, the freedom beyond the Music and possibly beyond the CIrcles are gifts that even these other beings would envy. They aren't supposed to be viewed as "less than" but these are the usual concerns that pop up when discussing the Gift of Men. In Tolkien's world it's a gift, even if we think it's not.
@@TheRedBook the problem the valar (jmanwe thought they were similar to melkor...),maiar and elves usually viewed men less , it's hard to be looked down because of your mortality and òess years to gains windsom,libing thorugh pains immortals can't understand(like permanent deaths, aging ,illinnes),and being at the same "patronized" by them ,that kept sayign death was a gift ,while both evles like elrond or divinitis like melian were heartbroken when their daughter choose the doom of men
The video is quite well made and I appreciate the work that went into it. You are very accomplished. Unfortunately the apologetics for the Ban of the Valar are simply contrived. This is not your doing but Tolkien's own. As we all admire Tolkien and his works, I understand the desire to excuse his cognitive dissonance on this topic. Tolkien himself was given to similar mental gymnastics for his Catholic faith and the parallels are most likely not coincidental. Yet the sheer and obvious dishonesty has always angered me. I would rather the Valar had been as direct about Men in Aman as Odin was in speaking of a human in Asgard: "She does not belong here in Asgard any more than a goat belongs at a banquet table!" Tolkien marked the path of Men in his stories but didn't like where it led. Yet he couldn't change the outcome lest his Men diverge too sharply from actual human beings as he saw them. The "Gift of Men" was Tolkien's contrived exit and the mystery and lack of detail surrounding it was fobbing off his audience (and perhaps himself).
I think it's important for me to say that when I make these videos I try to explain and discuss the Legendarium according to the author. I do offer plenty of my own speculation and thoughts but rarely put forth ideas that I think go against some intention on the part of Tolkien. For example, I'd hate to live in a world where Eru exists but it's a fact that he exists in the Legendarium, so I tend to talk about him in a way that reflects how he is written - even if some explanations for his actions don't match my own beliefs. It's why I will talk about the "Problem of Evil" in the Legendarium while knowing that it really is religious apologetics when trying to explain all-powerful deities and the existence of suffering and evil. I'm going to clearly disagree with a devout Catholic when it comes to many things but I do love the Legendarium and still enjoy the way Tolkien wrote it. I like that there are parts of it that I find strange, or confusing, and other parts I find a bit baffling. It's why we can talk about it over and over again but why I am always happy that this world as he wrote it isn't the way I view things.
I think Eru Iluvatar was a terrible character, because he willingly allowed billions to suffer. That is cruel. Ma we and the Valar are no better since they allowed Middle Earth to suffer in the Time of the Trees, First Age, Second Age, and Third Age.