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I don't think you can change the Chani and Paul drama without changing Chani beyond what was established, which would change the movie drastically. He painted himself into a corner.
Its impossible to fix, lets say you do it with 12y time skip? How are they going to do it? I think he is going to make their "conflict" some kind of focus of the movie. Because Chani isnt that much part of the story, but you know they need to have more women on the "front". Thats my guessing.
That was always going to be the outcome for Paul no matter what happened. But by eliminating the Chani and Jessica relationship, it means she never truly got to understand what it meant to be the woman loved by a Duke the way Jessica was able to relay it to Chani in every other version of the story. And as result it creates a previously non-existant gulf between Chani and Paul that really shouldn't be there.
@kineticstar- yes, exactly! OK, there are/were some aspects that were going to have to change for the film, given how difficult it would have been to stick strictly to the storyline. But other aspects needed to be left well alone if the third film wasn't going to deviate wildly from the book, and the Paul/Chani love story was probably the main one!
Sorry, all I saw in the "Chani" of the movies was modern Hollywood refusing to let the two of them actually love each other. The character deserves better. The story deserves better.
It was such a jarring change from someone who said that they wanted to do a more faithful adaptation. Chani and Paul are supposed to be rock solid, not this mess.
The irony Chani helped Paul become a messiah. Also the theme of doing things for the greater good is part of the Fremen culture. That includes political marriages, so why would Chani become an angry brat because the marriage was for the greater good.
Chani's anger at the marriage arrangement was not her main issue, though. It was the part where she felt she had lost him for good, but her issues with his choices came well before that. She was part of a movement with the Fremen ranks that questioned the importance of blind belief in religiosity. That much is very clear. She loved Paul Muad'dib. He had explained to her his feelings about this Lisan Al-Gaib 'prophesy', and how he disliked it... even feared it. Without a doubt that cemented her feelings toward him. But then he took the Water of Life, and this transformed him into a person she did not understand anymore. No-one understood what he was going through. And when he used the Lisan Al-gaib identity to create fanatical religious loyalty to him, that was a huge betrayal and a total reversal of what he had talked to her about before. Him arranging a marriage with Princess Irulan was really just the final straw. The moment where she realized she could not be around the person he had become. Fremen are a very practical people and know exactly the kinds of things they must do just to survive. Jealousy is not a thing that they cultivate. However loyalty IS. It was not about Irulan so much as her questioning if her loyalty to him was well-placed. I think 'brat' is not really an accurate term here. It was a very difficult situation for both her and Paul, with a lot of strong feelings going on. It is always easy for someone to look in from the outside and say 'You are being unreasonable', but no human alive will be in a situation that involves passionate feelings stemming from highly complex situations, and simply choose the 'rational' path. No-one.
So true. The movie adaptation of her definitely looses her feminine faithful side. Was a bit jarring. Like who are they trying to appeal to? . I guess girl bosses and betas lol
@@keepkalm777 They also stripped her of her religiosity. She wasn't supposed to be a sullen skeptic. It was blatant pandering to modern audiences (which defeats the whole point Herbert was trying to make).
Ugh. That word. 'Pandering'. Making a character with depth and nuance is not pandering, it is good writing. Her being female has nothing to do with it. If it were 'Paula and Chano' that nuance and depth would still be a sign of good writing. I find there is this notion going around that male is default. Male can be nuanced, can have depth, history, feelings, and motivations, NP. But do it with a female character, and it becomes 'pandering'.
I agree. DV, for whatever reason he gave, completely screwed the pooch at the end of Dune 2. He literally erased Leto I, who, in the original story, was killed at Sietch Tabr in a raid by Harkonnen/Sardaukar forces. And Chani's change in character in the film is indicative of what Hollyweird does in retconning the actual story behind Dune. The two films are magnificent in a technical sense, but it's not Frank Herbert's Dune, that's plain and simple. Whether if it was DV's decision solely, or he was urged to make the changes, it was a huge error in judgement. I cannot see how they can repair the damage done by his radical change of Chani's character. It will look so contrived as to ruin the story line totally. It also puts Leto II and Ghanima in purgatory, so to speak. I am both looking forward to see what happens, and not looking forward to see the mess that has been created. It will be extremely difficult to do. Trying to "modernize" the Dune saga is just another failure of vision and a slap at the foundation of the entire story. They didn't need to make Chani a "modern woman" and taking on the supposed dichotomy of the Fremen just took away the proper focus of the story. And all the "white messiah" nonsense is just that, nonsense. Anyone who really knows the story is aware that Paul is actually a villain because of the ensuing galaxy-wide jihad. And they can leave patriarchy out of it because the females of Dune have tremendous power due to the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood. DV did not choose........wisely.
You can either like or hate David Lynch's version, but at least the Spacing guild played a big role, he included a subtle time skip where the Freman made gains against the Harkonnens, as well as Alia being born and played a crucial role in Paul's plans and Chani was Paul's woman til the end. (*edit Even though it was portrayed that Chani fell in love with Paul after he knocked her out.😂) Looking back at it, David Lynch's Dune was one of my favorite sci-fi movies as a kid in the 80s. Paul really appealed to me because he had the typical anime main character troupe. Paul went from there's something special about him to he is the one. I never got that feeling from Denis' version.
Some of the worst mistakes one can do is to scroll down in a comment section, because of the risk of treating your table as Eric Andre treats his, but in the case of this comment section, I am having a blast, especially because I am constantly like "I am not the only one!", but most importantly because you people are expressing what I couldn't. Sometimes, I don't like movies or shows, or aspects of them, but I can't explain why. You nailed it with your last statement about Paul. That was the little splinter in my mind. Thanks.
YES. Kyle MacLachlan is the better Paul for me. I really struggle with Chalamet as Paul. I just don’t like his version of Paul. His eyes always look dead.
It is not a problem. It is a major point of the story. Herbert used his stories as a means of questioning the validity of free-will. The friction between historical inevitability, and personal choice was a huge source of the drama in his books. A good story does not attempt to smooth over conflict.... it uses conflict as a driving force in the narrative.
In a day and age where everyone's looking for strong female characters, how they can take a franchise with some of the strongest female characters in literature and screw them up so badly is beyond me.
One of the biggest problems is that these strong female characters are always written like stoic invulnerable and flawless men. They reject all femininity because they see it as weak which is sexist. Apparently the only way to be strong or aspirational is to be masculine, and I wouldn’t even argue that it’s in the healthiest or most realistic way. Especially because men and women do function differently in society no matter how we wish it ideally weren’t like that. The masculine power just seems more ideal because it is so glorified and better, whereas feminine power is subtle and looked down upon. But they both come with sacrifices and downsides. And the bigger the power the bigger the responsibility. Being strong means to have human flaws, accept them, reflect on them and manage + overcome your struggles with an optimistic mindset. It requires vulnerability, being dumb and naive and learning from that. It requires growth. Being strong requires first being weak to get to that. Those qualities are not limited to men. They exist in all people. The writers in Hollywood are afraid of showing real human flaws and growth into badass aspirational figures we can relate to. I have a suspecting feeling that they don’t write characters like this much (especially in women because they’re pushing for that agenda) or are unable to because they themselves are high on their own egos and unable to relate to humbling themselves and becoming vulnerable to going through those struggles and growth. Which ends up creating shallower and lower quality work. It’s indicative of narcissistic personalities who struggle to relate to others and aspire to project perfection, which is ultimately fake.
@@mochalotte4702 I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you never read Dune. I may be wrong, but I say this because your criticisms point out the very issues I have with the movie portrayal compared to the book. The Bene Gesserits strengths were entirely feminine: subtlety, honesty, self control and first-wave feminist bodily autonomy taken to the extreme (kind of) in their breeding program. They never seek to control, only to direct. They act as impartial judges between major factions, place their members in indirect positions of power, influence religious movements and engage in human husbandry. They rely on their ability to look back upon their past lives to learn from their failures and their breeding programs to shape the future. The Prana-Bindu teachings are Yoga taken to the extreme with their martial prowess being little more than a natural extension of this, like Shaolin monks. Their strength is more like a willow tree than an oak: the ability to bend and adapt rather than merely endure. In this the Lady Jessica's greatest 'flaw' was her love of Duke Leto and her own self indulgence in giving birth to a son rather than the proscribed daughter (because the Bene Gesserit had become such masters of their own bodies that they could choose their children's gender during pregnancy). This is even more evident in the later works, namely Heretics of Dune where Love itself is that Heresy which, in itself, reflects the greatest flaw of the Sisterhood, their rejection of emotions, which the masculine often associate with feminine weakness (look at the origins of the word 'hysterical'). By the end of Heretics, however, that assessment is questioned with the suggestion that Love may have, in fact, been the Lady Jessica's greatest strength and the Sisterhoods rejection of emotions, rather than simply controlling them, had in fact been their greatest weakness. Given that Lady Jessica was based largely on Frank Herbert's wife, Beverly, and the Bene Gesserits were influenced largely by expanding upon the tenets of first -wave feminism, I don't believe Frank was inflicted with the conditions you proscribe to modern Hollywood writers (which is an assessment I strongly agree with, it was biggest flaw in the Disney Star Wars fanfic trilogy). Best example I can think of off the top of my head from the series is in Children of Dune where Lady Jessica is forced to confront her failures with her daughter Alia which led to Alia becoming possessed by the shade of Baron Harkonnen and her eventual self destruction. There's a lot of really heavy introspection and self-criticism that I strongly doubt most modern writers would even dare to attempt. In short I agree with your assessment of modern writers, particularly in the portrayal of strong female characters, I just don't believe it applies to the Dune novel.
Yeah, Chani storming out at the end of Part 2 really threw me, given what happens in Messiah. She knows that the Paul-Irulan Marriage is 100% political and she loves Paul enough that she’s ok with it. That’s what the book ends on, Paul’s assurance that he only loves her.
Something to remember, Jessica is the reason Chani understands this in every other version, because they had a close or at least amenable relationship normally. But with a relationship of pure mistrust and animosity between the two women combined with how short Paul's actual time on Arakis with the Fremen is in this version compared to the years and years of time he spends as a Fremen in every other iteration including the original source, Chani never gets that mentorship and understanding from Jessica in DV's adaptation. So here we are.
“Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she'll live as less than a concubine-never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she's bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine-history will call us wives.”
@@kartelUSM Exactly. Because DV decided to make Jessica and Chani's relationship 100% animosity, that conversation never happens. Chani never gains that understanding of how purely political marriages really function.
She didn't storm out because Paul wanted to marry Irulan, or at least that's not the main reason. She left him because he turned out to be the exact thing that she feared: an outsider that uses the Fremen as a means for his own agenda.
Totally agree. It's interesting how the sentiment around Dune 2's changes, particularly regarding Chani, has changed. When Dune 2 first came out, I left the cinema feeling very confused and disappointed with how they handled Chani and how they were going to move on from it. Mentioning that at the time online though, when everyone was just raving about the movie, had me crucified. There was basically no complaints allowed about the movie, particularly on Reddit. Soon we'll be met with the reality that Dune Messiah is going to suddenly have to fix things or else look pretty much nothing like the book at all. But as you've said, there's basically no way to do this organically.
I felt that way about Leit Kynes in the first one. I mean thankfully the character dies so as not have to explain how the famous planetologist of Arrakis who is also Chani's father turned into a black woman with no back story
Exactly same. I was very confused and disappointed, I haven’t even watched the movie again. Is refreshing to see people waking up after being blinded of the mediocre script by visual effects
Chani in the new movies, I hated. She was a brat, and had an air of superiority about her. I loved her in the mini series. In the end when Paul was fighting and Feyd mentions her, she looks at Paul knowing he's worried and says "I am not afraid", she's supportive, loving, and puts others first. At the end when Paul wins and the princess comes before him, he goes and stands and looks at Chani, in an obvious display to her and the Fremen people that SHE is his real wife, his love. It pays back all the respect, love, support, and sacrifices she has given.
I get what you mean about superiority, but I liked it. She was not raised in the feudal imperial system, so of course she would not see Paul in those terms. Who better to play the skeptic than Paul’s sweetheart who lives outside of his revenge plot?
@@DallasCrane Except that in the book, the assassination of her own father (Liet Kynes) by the Harkonnens helps to bond her with Paul in shared grief and desire for revenge. The movie didn't even bother to mention Chani's crucial family ties (also Stilgar's niece).
I finally watched D2 last week. I deliberately stayed away from in-depth reviews of it so I could make up my own mind. I was however aware of some of the issues people had with it but I was not expecting to be as disappointed in it as I was. I was expecting it to be like DV's D1 where though there were issues for me the good still outweighed the bad enough for me to enjoy it and if nothing else to let the scenery and world building carry me through it. But it was so much worse than I thought it would be. The changes were unnecessary, jarring, a betrayal to the story a lot of the time, and even within the movie's own world there were issues with things that just didn't make sense. I have no interest in watching Messiah now. Even the scenery and cinematography could carry me through D2. And for me there were multiple issues but the Chani issue was one of the largest. If there had even been a wee bit of chemistry between the actors it might have mitigated it a smidgen, but there wasn't even a spark. As for all the Zendaya stans who are having a go at you on x, dear grief. Going to show my age but in my day when 'fans' couldn't tell the difference between the actors and the characters they played people knew to inform security/police because those were inevitably the type of 'fans' who ended up stalking/harassing/harming said actors. Report, block and keep doing what you're doing. Having a voice of reason in the desert of madness is a precious thing nowadays.
worst part of Dune II was Chani. We had hints in the first part but the relationship between Paul and Chani was the reason he was able to become who was supposed to be. Instead she came across as petulant if not always angry at him
IMO the changes to the Chani character was the biggest mistake in Dune Part 2 and it left me feeling disappointed in the movie. I was disappointed in part to miss one of the top 10 lines in the book when Jessica said, “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine-never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine-history will call us wives.” One guess on how the Chani-Paul story arc could be repaired would be to have Paul go to Chani upon the birth to the 1st baby Leto. This feels like a stretch to me but it is the best guess that I have.
@@DolphineAchonga-gn6kn "But everyone wants to be the queen." Wow, you know what EVERYONE wants! That's so cool... how did you gain access to that much data?
it's because they made a dull movie and had to throw some kind of conflict into it. it's just damage control. Villeneuve doesn't really have a target for these movies, he just likes cinematic stuff and puts it everywhere. the essence of Dune is nowhere to be found
The thing I don’t care for with Chani the most is that he essentially just made her Siona from God Emperor. Frank wasn’t some sexist writing 2D female characters with no strength or agency. They were already complex and individual characters and he kind of just erased everything that made Chani.
I was also disappointed with the Chani changes. I don't buy the time compression excuse. In the book Chani was pure Fremen and saw Paul as the messiah. This makes the whole story even more tragic and deep. Casting Zendaya was a mistake. When you cast such a big star you are obligated to make their character larger than it needs to be. They should have gone with a new actress. Another change I hated was making Lady Jessica so weak. In the book she was a badass and had no issues with controlling her emotions or having knowledge of the spice agony. Bene Gesseret were sometimes colder than Harkonnen.
Exactly. Its too much modern politics. He misses the point of the Fremen culture, its actually scary how united the culture is for their vision of freedom and creating a paradise. How would the kids who crew up in Fremen culture dismiss their beliefs and culture? They are desert people in the end, where as Chani comes across as some Cali uni freshman thats having her first "authority is wrong moment", its thinking of their culture as ours and it needs to stop. I swear movies and games are being more and more stupid. I dont maybe human race is being that so they need to simplify even more.
I am happy that I am not the only one that thinks zendaya was the wrong choice. Single handedly ruined Paul and Chani's relationship. She truly can't act even if she followed The directors lead.
Very few adaptations can "stuck" to the books. Blade Runner, Jurassic Park are good example of great adaptations that differ widely from their written counterparts. LOTR managed to stay true to the books for the most oast but Dune is much more dense and some streamlining is welcome.
Chani falling off was so bad but the worst was Feyd being tested with the gom jabbar. The entire point of Feyd is he is an animal. Hes disposable once his genetics are used to bridge the gap between Atreides and Harkonnen. He's the antithesis to Paul.
Shame as he, according to the Herbert/Anderson books, was the son of the Barron's brother, Abulurd and his wife - Rabban's parents. They were the good Harkonnens. Feyd is only a psycho because he was raised by the Baron and Rabban...parents of the milennium.
@@3091181 Facts. This ruined the whole thing for me also. It's like he doesn't really understand how that would be the most awful decision in the movie to make. Feyd is 100% controlled by his primal instincts. The needle would have went thru his neck with the quickness.
It’s a 4 year gap in the book between the Atreides loss at Arakeen and where it picks up after Jamis’ funeral. Also, Chani was a member of their priesthood in the books, she wasn’t some rebellious teen personality, but a more mature young woman in the books.
WHY Directors and Producers REFUSE to STICKING to the lore is baffling...IT'S NOT YOUR STORY TO CHANGE!!! As much as I like these movies, they will ALWAYS be FANFICTION and NOT a true telling!!! 🙄
Not true, they purchase the right to use the license. The license owner is the only one who can dictate the rules of that sale. Remember, these are made to make the most money possible... not to honor the author.
Zendaya would be the last person i would ever consider for the role of Chani , and wonder how much she influenced the role whilst making the film, and didn't see much chemistry nor any understanding of it by the actress lol
It occurred to me after rereading Dune that Paul is arguably addicted to Channy before he meets her during the crossing. Channy is Paul’s literal dream girl due to his prescient abilities manifesting as dreams growing up on Caladan that when the two meet during Paul’s and Jessica’s crossing, Paul is immediately drawn to her. In fact the attraction Paul has for her is so strong that a few lines after Jessica has changed the waters of life and pieces together Paul and Channys attraction, she thinks to keep them apart, but it’s already too late as Channy took Paul to another room after they both drank the water. I think Herbert did this as a way of showing the different kinds of addiction (and later possession) there is.
The sci-fi version showed Chani as being "strong" and meaningful to the story (not a token, not a submissive, etc...). Not sure where "strong" turned to angry and bitter.
Agreed! In both Dune & Children of Dune, Chani was her own person and devoted to Paul at the same time. The scene between her and Irulan in Children was especially powerful and completely invented. It’s really too bad that such a talented filmmaker has wasted such a wonderful opportunity to repeat what had been a winning formula in the past.
@@CarnisianLady Original book Chani is a Fremen. Further, she is the daughter of a huge Fremen leader. She dreams with getting her people on top. She dreams with getting her planet on top of the universe. She dreams with changing her planet and improving it. All those dreams are possible with Paul and book Chani 200% commits with it all. She wants her children with Paul to rule the universe as Fremen. She wants her kids to have Fremen culture and rule the universe with it. Ohhh...and yes, she is deeply in love with Paul. She will place her own life on line if need be. Ultimately this all explains why book Chani ends as she ends. Why she really wants to sacrifice everything for her children with Paul. Its her ultimate goal. And she will not let Irulan mess with it. She will have Irulan for breakfast and show what a true strong female really is. By being willing to give her life for her goals and show Irulan how far she is willing to go. Now tell me this is no personality lol
Simple answer is you don't reconcile it. Having gutted Chani's character in part 2 completely messes with major plot points in Messiah. I miss book Chani too. However Denis brings them back together would be so ham-fisted and cringey after how he ended the last movie. It's a mess already.
I didn't like how critical she was of him, it made no sense, especially not when the entire plot is about how fanatical and united the Fremen are together in their cause.
Spot on. He committed a bit of a train wreck with Chani's character, and I was thinking the whole time how that derails Dune: Messiah. We shall see, but yeah. Ouch. 🥺
The love story of Pau and Chani was one of the most beautiful things in the series. It moved me and broke my heart when Paul was saying "Disengage, disengage!" because he saw what would happen to Chani if he waked away from all that he saw was coming. DV needs to fix the mess he made of Paul and Chani or for me Dune Messiha cannot be made into a film anything like the beauty of the book.
3:57 I don't think Paul betrayed Chani. He warned her if he went south everything would change and she still pushed. He did everything he could to avoid it, but decisions were made for him.
I think the way Paul and Chani will re-unite in the upcoming movie will be during the “Stone Burner” scene. I have a feeling that Paul will have a prescient vision of her dying from the explosion and he makes sure he saves her. Once he saves her, the Stone Burner goes off and he and his men are blinded from the blast. In the aftermath, she will be comforting him and once she realises the horrifying lengths he went to as the most powerful man in the universe to save her, she realises his love for her is truly real and she forgives him. This would tie in to them hooking back up and sets the stage for the tragic climax that we see at the end of the second novel. But that’s just my theory, for now 🤷♂️
Agreed, the changes weren’t needed. Other then Liet-Kynes, Chani’s portrayal keeps me up some nights. Denis didn’t have to flip a main character for something that was explained in a few sentences. Yes, I hope it changes in Messiah….
Originally, I felt offput by the Liet change, but looking back, the role in the book allows for the role to be changed. He was a plot device that was used to introduce exposition and move Paul from Arrakin to the deep deserts. Even his death in the book, though tragic, ends there in the desert alone, and the book bear no mention except in a short blurb of his passing and quickly move on. The Chani change is what threw me for a loop. And I have expound enough about the change that I make other book nerds say I need a time out so I won't go on.
"Agreed, the changes weren’t needed." Oh, you got that right! In the novel, Chani is NOT a major character and Denis Villeneuve wanted her to be one! 😖
Thats not true. the role does not allow for a change because the Imperium is patriarchal and wouldnt pick a woman to be much of anything, much less an imperial ecologist of the most important planet in humanity's history and future. It ruins a lot of social commentary you could have around the movie, because it's all defanged and made to be a non issue. @@kineticstar
@humbleopulence Liet has never been to the capital. If you read, he inherited disposition from his father. The royal position may be male oriented, but there is no stated rule in the book that says it is the case for lower positions within the bureaucracy in the book. Also, why so angry about a movie and a book that you seemed to not truly understand. The women in Dune are all on equal footing or a higher place than most of the men. Fremen women both fight and raise children. There was no room for established norms when being hunted was an everyday occurrence. The sisterhood has the thrones in hand with one of their own as princess. Do you really think they would let Fyde rule if he married Irulan? Jessica advised Leto in all facets of his life up to his death, even when there were misplaced doubts about her loyalty. She was a capable fighter and diplomat. All of which disproves your established social norms.
@kineticstar i don't think you understand the Dune world. Women are second to men throughout the Imperium. The men have noble wives and concubines and the Bene Gesserit are seen, by and large, as cunning and manipulative witches, and yet they portray themselves, publicly, as simple matchmakers for the noble houses. That means that throughout the Imperium, men and women are NOT on equal footing, and that is part of the commentary of Frank Herbert on this possible future that he delineates in his Dune books. It's not supposed to be aspirational! It's supposed to show you something you DON'T want to live in and should make you want to avoid its coming. That's what sci fi is about. Also, the Fremen being equal to each other, male and female .... Yeah.... Thats the Fremen, not the Imperium. The point of the Fremen is to show Paul that things can be different. You then think that he will be a good leader, because he has the best of both worlds - the noble and the savage - with which to make proper decisions. This ends up being another part of the critique by Herbert - you may have good intentions but you're still operating under spite, resentment and vengeance, which Paul is (his dead son, his relationship with Irulan, his estrangement of Stilgar). These are all part and parcel of why Paul fails to fulfill his promise. So, I'm sorry, it is you that appears to not understand this world
Agree. I think Chani's resistance is a contemporary concession about young independent women but in the novels Chani was clearly a warrior and Paul's moral centre to balance Jessica/Sisterhoods machinations. A turnabout in the next film will compromise her Freman resolve and ultimately weaken her character.
Paul and Chani's relation was so jarring at times. One scene she's laughing at him with the others, next scene she's helping him do his survival challenge. One scene she expresses her anger at the prophecy, the next scene they're spending the night together. It was like "what is going on here?" And y'all thought Anakin and Padme's love story was badly written... lol
it didn't help that they had like zero onscreen chemistry either. dont get me wrong, I loved both movies, but paul and chani's relationship just felt so cold and forced
ahahahh. Perfect picture of her on the thumbnail. Looks just like a teenager that has been told "You are NOT going out to the school disco dressed like that young madam!" heh heh
But from the point of view of the story, it is a completely logical and good decision. Chani was taught all her life not to cry, not to waste water. And what happens when you can't let go of negative emotions, you just let them accumulate? you will be angry and frustrated with desperation.
I think the Stilgar character also suffered in the new adaptation. In the new movies, he was a religious fanatic from the start. But it the books, he began as a cautious leader, and his belief in Paul was a lessening of his soul.
Stilgar is a joke in the movie, just full on Monty Python life of Brian vibes, and I think deliberately as it's so obvious. It got to the point where every time he went doe eyed and gushed about Paul being the messiah I was waiting for Chani pout like she swallowed a turd nugget and say in her best terry Jones voice "he's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy". The scale is the only thing they nailed for me, in Villeneuve's defence it does state in the credits that they are "based" on the novels, but they are are mess.
@@gs8494yeah the way they handled the religion felt borderline offensive. That scene where Chani is making fun of Reverend mother ritual and then Stilgar being like “he is the messiah” caused the theater to laugh, and that really took me out of the whole thing because the Fremen religion is so well developed. Even irl ex believers don’t have that level of contempt for their faith or community. It felt like new atheist cringe (I say this a someone who isn’t religious too).
Overall, Dune was amazing but I couldn’t figure out why they changed the Paul/Chani dynamic. It could have been done more faithfully to the book without losing anything.
I had so many people who were fans of Doom. Tell me to watch the first one, I watched the first part, I cautiously thought it was okay And then my wife and I went and watched Dune part 2, I was absolutely furious. I am sick and tired of people taking these books and thinking they can do it better than the original author
Its not that they think they can do better, rather, they don't have any talent to create new, original art... just take someone else's art, paint over it enough to slap your label on it... earn the profit. These movies are made for money, not to honor to original author.
DV had two lay-up character development points which he muffed completely: 1) the murder of Paul and Chani's firstborn, to drive grief, rage and madness, but also provide a fulcrum for reconciliation 2) the complexity of Paul's love for his sister, who's obviously a dangerous freak and chaos agent, but she's still a true daughter of the house and of Duke Leto. The mini-series versions used both far more effectively.
It sounds to me like you were a little frustrated by these choices for the changes made in this film adaptation. I have to agree if this is so, because it really did change the entire feeling of this movie when these changes were made.
Considering that Paul has already said that Chani will forgive him i don't see what's to stop them from wrapping up this drama in the opening act of the movie. It serves its purpose in Dune 2.. i think the major problem with Chani wasn't the story change, but the fact that Zendaya only has one note, and there's very little else to her performance.
It may not have been intentional, but in the current state of the cultural zeitgeist, it is seen as "Woman smart, man stupid" where Chani sees things as it is, and Paul just ignores the manipulation becoming a religious warlord. Missing was the book's portrayal how Paul was torn up as he didn't want to take this path, as he was able to see the Jihad that was to come but saw no other way to move forward without even more bloodshed. In trying to make Chani a "strong woman", they took away what made her strong. She instead came across as abrasive, a girl boss and in the end, someone who abandoned Paul when he needed her love the most.
I totally disagree, the ending of the movie made us THINK that Chani was leaving…however we never truly see her get on the worm and take off. Did she really leave him or was she going to come back? I think they are both strong characters either way. Paul understands the path he must take, and Chani is our POV to realize he’s not a messiah. You’ll never have a true source material like dune come to the picture…it’s not commercial enough. This adaptation is excellent either way…. Women in this world are what you’d expect them to be….cunning, sneaky, manipulative. The men are generally warriors, except for the Fremen.
I guess I’m the only one who loves the changes to Chani for the movie. I love that she has more agency, I love that she is upset to see her lover use and oppress her people. We needed an audience surrogate because let’s face it people don’t have great media literacy these days. I wish they had more time to develop but oh well
Villeneuve was afraid that he would not get the green light for Dune Messiah, so he crammed it into the first book even if it destroyed the characters' relationships in the first book.
When Chani stormed off at the end of Part 2, I said to myself, "that's the reaction of a woman who just found out she's pregnant." I've only read the first book, and I'm not up on hints for Part 3, but I Villeneuve is going to make that revelation the thing that brings her and Paul back united
Their relationship in the book I think grows over five years. As you say they have a son which bonds them together even deeper. Also Paul is aware of what he is doing, using the Fremen beliefs to get his revenge, but he feels he has no choice, that his destiny is all that matters and he has to travel that road regardless. Chani and Paul have discussions in the book about it, he turns to her and his mother many times trying to explain to them how he is outside of their time, that he feels overpowered by his destiny. It's explored even more in Messiah. But also in the book the Harkonnens find their baby and kill him bringing them sadness and more reason to avenge themselves on their mortal enemy. That was taken out of the movie. They could of shown all the internal struggle Paul has without using Chani, without making her an antagonist to him. In the book she always supported him and understood him, even if she didn't agree she had his back. In the movie its more like a 21st century relationship, as if Villeneuve didn't think the audience would understand what Paul was going through if he didn't have them see it through Chani's eyes and manner. And yet both the David Lynch movie from the 80's and the SciFi mini series managed to do the book justice in that respect.
This makes me think of the recent poll which revealed 20-something’s don’t want to see love and sex in their tv shows and movies. And here we have Paul & Chani not having any sort of core love and devotion in these movies. I was shocked when I saw Dune 2 that Chani WALKS OUT at the end ! What a weird choice!! And if DV does a time jump for the next movie, how will he explain the vast rift between these two, knowing what happens in part 3? Confused.
The Sc Fi channel miniseries managed Chani vastly better. Hell, Lynch managed Chani better. I get it that DV's version is really visually stunning, but some of the character story lines appear to have suffered from the emphasis on cinematography. Hard to even imagine what to make of any Dune Messiah effort, from the two movies we actually have.
I was so disappointed in Dune II. The changes ruined the story, but also I hate when these writers and directors think they know better than the real author. Making changes that destroy the story, the power of the story...
For me these 2 films both felt rushed despite the total running time. They were thin, lacked story, lacked depth, and for all the fab visuals they are instantly forgettable films because you don't care iota for the characters.
I have no more expectations about DV's tale of Dune . I feel that many aspects of Herbert's Dune saga have been ignored, and the films are mostly a simplistic interpretation of Paul Atreides messianic journey where the rich Duneverse loses its complexity and transcendence. I am more curious about how the Tleilaxu will be introduced in the story along with Duncan's ghola (If DV does it,) but I suspect the story will delve, locally in Arrakis, mainly around Paul's empire and the attempts on his life, right until his fall from power.
My guess is that she's already pregnant when she leaves at the end of Dune 2. If Denis' plan is still to have Chani die then Paul is going to have to go search for her and convince her to come back. Her arriving back from the desert visibly pregnant creates the immediate tension to motivate Irulan to poison her (yes, different from the book) but, aligns enough to maintain important story elements.
If Paul and Chani spend time alone in the desert while she's pregnant it could definitely build the deep love in their relationship that you are absolutely correct in saying is missing.
At this point Paul might as well be going to war with Chani next. That's why I like Lynch's version because the prophecy started out being bs, but ended up being true to everyone's surprise except the believers.
DVN's comments regarding his changes to Chani ring hollow to me. He did a fantastic job in most other respects with Dune's world-building and did so without any hand holding for the audience. But when it came to Paul's transformation he decided to hit the audience over the head with a hammer to reinforce his own interpretation by drastically changing Paul and Chani's relationship and making Jessica and Chani's relationship far more antagonistic than it should have been. Combine that with Zendaya's track record and I think this was largely a nod to the 'modern audience' garbage that infests Hollywood, despite whatever DVN publicly proclaims. Given DVN's apparent weakness when it comes to portraying relationships, I fully expect a time skip and handwaving to justify some sort of reconciliation between Paul and Chani. That is, assuming he does not double down by making Chani even worse than she was portrayed in Part 2.
Acutally, I think Denis is trying to keep the Dune Messiah plot-lines easier to manage going forward. By having a baby Alia and baby Harkonnen, the whole spiritual possession by the Baron can be regulated to a singular character (baby Harkonnen). This helps the story avoid being bogged down by too many complex characters. In addition, Paul and Chani's twins will represent the future ying and yang of the Kwisatz Haderach, with Leto ultimately deciding to take on the leadership roll as God Emperor.
Denis Villeneuve really painted himself into a corner. I agree, he weakened Chani’s relationship with Paul. Watching Part One and Part Two, I could see how a viewer unfamiliar with the books would think, “Why, since the beginning, is Paul putting up with her suspicious and combative behavior? With his growing power and status among the Fremen, he could easily find a love interest who wasn’t so distrustful and sour.” Chani, of course, was a significant person in Paul’s life and important to his well-being. However, she was really a supporting character, not a main one, in the books. If I remember correctly, readers never get to see inside her head and hear her inner thoughts as they could with the chapters showing Paul, Jessica, Thufir, Gurney, and Duke Leto’s point of view. Frank Herbert often kept her in the background. I would have preferred that they had hired an actress who wasn’t well-known to play Chani (as well as Princess Irulan). Because of Zendaya’s and Florence Pugh’s flavor-of-the-moment star power, it also feels like their roles were enlarged and made more important to please them and their agents, instead of casting actors who would be of service to their roles, however large or small. Villeneuve and his team turned Chani and Irulan into girlbosses. The Fremen, while varying in their beliefs, were all religious. Yes, Chani in the books was not aware of the Bene Gesserit’s manipulation with their Missionaria Protectiva. None of the Fremen were because it was a guarded secret. But no, the director made Chani an atheist who was privy to special secret information without a plausible reason, one of a minority who knew the real truth, and who also viewed the religious Fremen as fools. Book Chani was a Sayyadina, an acolyte in training to be a Fremen Reverend Mother. She grew up preparing to play a religious role in her society. Chani was tough and had good fighting skills, but she wasn’t a Fedaykin, a badass professional commando. The director changed Princess Irulan into Reverend Mother Mohiam’s best student. She was made so perceptive that she was a better strategist than her father, the Emperor. Book Irulan was the opposite. She was viewed as a failed Bene Gesserit by the Sisterhood. She was beautiful and of royal birth, thus eligible to be married off to someone of high rank (Dune is set in a partriarchal feudal future, after all). Herbert gave no indication that she had a great mind. Her desire to be a historian was not taken seriously by others. But no, Villeneuve’s version of Irulan made her into a future formidable Empress, more clever than her intelligent father. Incidentally, Christopher Walken was miscast in Part Two. He gave a frail, low-energy performance. Book Emperor, though he was 72, looked younger, like a man in his mid-thirties. He was cunning and exuded vitality, qualities that Walken did not embody. It will be interesting to see how Villeneuve course-corrects his interpretation (which he needs to do) in the third movie.
I think the same about more unknown actors. I was thinking of commenting on it but I've got lost in the comments and found yours. That's the problem with stars, especially with, as you said, flavor of the moment stars. I am sick of seeing the same faces everywhere to be honest, Dave Bautista included. I can't stand Pough, although she is a good actress. Zendaya, I can't understand what do people see in her, at any level. I just can't, I don't get why is she a star. And next, Ania Taylor-Joy, AGAIN. I like her, and yeah not gonna lie she makes me feel... things... ngrrr ngrrr lol, and yes, I think she can play crazy/scary really good. But her, again! And Momoa everywhere. Who's next, the fkg Rock? Gosling? I have stars of the moment fatigue. I also agree, absolutely, with what you say about the eyeroll/flip the table inducing girlbossy changes for that modern audience that doesn't exist. It's sickening. It destroys completely the whole point of the story. That's why I can't stand the argument of "it's not wokeness bruh, it's bad writing bruh, why so angry for propnouns lol". These people can't understand that the bad writing is exactly the direct consequence of wokeness. You can't adapt a story set in a feudal and patriarchal society if your woke demands ruin that premise, which is what makes the story interesting in the first place. They are doing it with WH40K. These people mean to tell me that in a setting where the """good guys""" are extremely xenophobic and wear human skulls as ornaments, every minute of the miserable existence is a struggle to survive, and there are thousands of fates much worse than 'unaliving', the important thing is trans rights and equality? WTF! It's impossible to write a good story about vikings, if in a viking village they are celebrating a multicultural pride parade lead by their non binary muslim black queen. It's impossible to be good. There's nothing interesting in it. That's why the modern audience doesn't exist, only in the MSM, because even the supposed modern audience get absolutely bored by all this bs. DV's Dune is not that ridiculous yet, but these changes are close to ruin it all. Let's see...
What's funny about Villeneuve trying to make Chani the anchor character for the audience is that most people ended up disliking or just not caring for her character. It wasn't necessary at all. Let the audience figure out what's going on through the events of the story. The more I think about the second movie the more I have problems with it. Great video! 🙌
I get what they were trying to do with Chani in the part 2, But I don't feel that of all things that was what least worked. I never got the sense that Paul and Chani were really connected, and it turned into more of a conflict and a shadow of what could have been. I think the audience already understood the fake messiah theme, and having Chani explain it just gave her something to do. Personally, if I were the filmmaker, I'd drop Chani's character development and just let her play out her role as written. No shade on Zendaya, but she never quite owned that part.
Making such a character and giving it to some one who doesn't have the acting range or capacity like Zendaya was the first mistake...so the role was smoked from the start...
You are incorrect. The character of Chani is not realistic. She was written as a doting follower of him and this dynamic is FAR MORE realistic and interesting. This adaptation is fantastic and he gave her power and her own mind dedicated to her people. People need to stop whining about his presentation of her. It is excellent. He did it perfectly.
The changes made to Chani remind me a little of Peter Jackson's changes to the character of Faramir in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Faramir, like Chani, was a character that used compassion and wisdom to overcome problems. Faramir was supposed to model the post WW1 warrior (as opposed to Boromir, who modelled the pre WW1 knight of valor archetype) who rather than find honour in great deeds of war, valued wisdom and knowledge, was strong because he acknowledged his weaknesses and moved forward despite of them, who was kind and wanted to protect the beauty of the world rather than destroy it. In The Two Towers, Peter Jackson incorrectly portrays Faramir as being tempted by the power of the One Ring to please his father, rather than outwardly reject it, in order to make it more relatable to the audience. And I don't agree with this change because it undermines Faramir as a paragon of kindness and compassion, something that we need more of in stories. Chani is pretty much the same. She is a powerful woman because she provides Paul with the human connection through her love and devotion, she keeps him on track from turning into a mindless, soul-less killer by standing by his side in the toughest of times. Like Peter Jackson with Faramir, I don't think Denis Villeneuve fully understood the purpose of Chani's virtues, as much of Frank Herbert's original intentions he wanted to honour. We need the character of Chani not because she's a passive female who's only job is to love Paul (and not fighting like a girlboss), we need her because of her compassion, her wisdom and her heart to love. Those are paragons of excellence that we should strive to embody in our life. We need virtuous characters as much as we need flawed ones. In the words of CS Lewis, "we make men without chests and expect from them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst."
I agre 100% with you on this. This is how they are gonna go around it. Chani is gonna show up and say to Paul ,, I love you ,, and that will be that. I was also pissed with what they did with Chani. She knows that hers and Pauls love is real, mirroring Letos and Jessicas love and that he have to marry princess for political reasons, and they made her stupid and childish
I think Denis never intended to make Dune Messiah, so he thought he had to cram the "dangerous charismatic leader" theme into the first (split) movie, on its own. He didn't care about the damage he was doing to the rest of the character arcs in Dune, as long as he got that message across, due to whatever reasons he had that made him think that was THE only, and main theme he needed to address out of all the concepts brought up in Dune. The change to Chani was despicable, to me. I've covered my gripes with this in past comment sections, but I could write essays on it.
That's what bugs me to, because dune is supposed to end on a high note. You're supposed to feel like you concluded a traditional heroes tale, only for messiah to come in and pull the rug out from under you and realize what happens after a revolution is not pretty.
@@derek96720 he probably was forced into it for political reasons. I believe he is clever enough to know the story so undermining it himself probably is out of fear of modern audience outrage than anything else It does discredit his artistic integrity as I think he is a coward but I don't believe he is stupid to not realize how he harmed his own Movie by doing it The audience doesn't need CHani to see how dangerous a Messiah is, we literally seen it from the first movie with his dream and the nightmare he suffered of what he was about to unleash
I see a lot of comments from people who are fans of the books..and as an adaptation..I agree with a lot of these critiques..however when I talk to people who never read the books..they don’t have any of the same issues…at least the newcomers I talked to, who are casual Sifi fans gave it high praise
The problem is that it's the Chani character that becomes the sceptic. She should have been the blind lover/follower that she was from the books. They should have kept Liet alive and Liet should have been the sceptic. They could have killed her off during the Jihad and would have had a great relational dynamic with Liet's death and Chani's love for Paul and yet seeing the consequences of the Jihad. I really don't think Zendaya is a good enough actress to pull off the work that's being asked of her. She stuck out like a sore thumb in the second film.
It was such a dumb thing to do. If you look back, it's never once mentioned in the movie that Jessica isn't actually married to Leto, that she's only a concubine. Them NOT being married is a vital piece of political information that directly led to him stupidly leaving out the closing line of the book - “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she'll live as less than a concubine-never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she's bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine-history will call us wives.”
Denis Villeneuve can say what he wants about why he changed the Chani character, but in book those changes were made to please MODERN Hollywood and to have more emphasis on women and particularly STRONG women. 🤦♂ Sorry Denis, but you're NOT more intelligent than Frank Herbert and you RUINED Dune Part 2 for me; Part One was quite good, but Dune: Messiah, I'm OUT. 😖 I wouldn't be surprised if Paul Atreides was a side character in Messiah where we're gonna get the story of four(4) women: Lady Jessica, Alia, Chani and Irulan.
With the fact that dube prophecy aka dune space witch's comes out right before I have that woke bait and switch feeling in my gut concerning part 3....
Not only were the changes made to Chani the worst changes for any characters, besides completely removing mentats and the guild, Zendaya was the worst actor in the movie.
Denis Villeneuve's arrogance and ego ruined the movie for me... changing things he shouldn't have changed. Chani was definitely one of those things. As goofy as it is in many ways, I prefer Lynch's Dune.
Lunch's Dune doesn't get enough credit because they removed an hour (I heard 2 hrs) from that movie. There are plenty of 3-6 hour versions of that movie but no clue how much is original content and how much is generated.
As a fan i wanted to walk out the cinema. Im all for changes but yhose changes have to make sense. He totally removed Her spiritual side by this change. If not for my friend keeping me in my seat i would have left.
In the book, Chani understood and knew the political implications of Pauls decisions and as a result she fully supported Paul without question. In the DV version, Chani was basically a pouty 12 year throwing tantrums all the time.
I have a feeling Denis made this decision to create more conflict for the adaptation of Dune Messiah for the on-screen audience, due to it being a fairly short book that's very dialogue heavy. I was a bit pulled back by his decision to drastically change Chani's character Arc but I've got faith in his directoral process for the upcoming film
It wasn't just her opposition and her storming out at the end, but DV completely skipped over and changed the role Chani had in allowing Paul to become a Fremen leader in the first place, due to her being both the daughter of Liet (a figure all the Fremen had united under) and the niece of Stilgar (the Naib of Sietch Tabr). Instead, the race and gender swapped Liet became just a forgettable blip with no real apparent role in the movie beyond supplying Paul and Jessica with an escape route and getting a few Sardaukar eaten with her, while Stilgar is portrayed as some bumbling, fanatical fool unrelated to Chani and a foreign 'southerner' who she openly derides in the manner of a Californian feminist activist. Her vitally important family relationships and the roles of her father and uncle were totally trashed, despite them being key to Paul's ascendancy. It is completely appalling that DV ruined the adaptation that way.
The changes to Chani in Dune 2 didn't work for me at all. I love parts of the movie, but Chani, and especially her final scenes, really annoyed me. I don't even want to see Messiah at this point.
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Couldn’t agree more.
Really well said as always, NC. Yes and yes.
You were the goofball that said the show seems small in scale and scope and now you are creating more B.S....
I don't think you can change the Chani and Paul drama without changing Chani beyond what was established, which would change the movie drastically. He painted himself into a corner.
agreed,l think DV choose this route to appeal to the “modern” female portion of the audience 🤔
Its impossible to fix, lets say you do it with 12y time skip? How are they going to do it? I think he is going to make their "conflict" some kind of focus of the movie.
Because Chani isnt that much part of the story, but you know they need to have more women on the "front". Thats my guessing.
That was always going to be the outcome for Paul no matter what happened. But by eliminating the Chani and Jessica relationship, it means she never truly got to understand what it meant to be the woman loved by a Duke the way Jessica was able to relay it to Chani in every other version of the story. And as result it creates a previously non-existant gulf between Chani and Paul that really shouldn't be there.
@@SweetandFullofGrace CW's Dune: Messiah
@kineticstar- yes, exactly! OK, there are/were some aspects that were going to have to change for the film, given how difficult it would have been to stick strictly to the storyline. But other aspects needed to be left well alone if the third film wasn't going to deviate wildly from the book, and the Paul/Chani love story was probably the main one!
I really do not care for Chani's character in the current Dune
same lol wouldnt care if she isnt in dune 3
It sucks. Hard to even call her chani she’s nowhere near the actual character
Sorry, all I saw in the "Chani" of the movies was modern Hollywood refusing to let the two of them actually love each other.
The character deserves better. The story deserves better.
It was such a jarring change from someone who said that they wanted to do a more faithful adaptation. Chani and Paul are supposed to be rock solid, not this mess.
They made Chani very militant, and that wasn’t the way she was betrayed in the books at all.
The irony Chani helped Paul become a messiah. Also the theme of doing things for the greater good is part of the Fremen culture. That includes political marriages, so why would Chani become an angry brat because the marriage was for the greater good.
After the duel, didn't' Paul win/inherit the responsibility of taking care of Jamis' family?
So yeah, for the greater good is totally Fremen.
@@thatHARVguy Yes, everyone thinks that they get to pick and choose what they want and it's ridiculous.
Chani's anger at the marriage arrangement was not her main issue, though. It was the part where she felt she had lost him for good, but her issues with his choices came well before that. She was part of a movement with the Fremen ranks that questioned the importance of blind belief in religiosity. That much is very clear. She loved Paul Muad'dib. He had explained to her his feelings about this Lisan Al-Gaib 'prophesy', and how he disliked it... even feared it. Without a doubt that cemented her feelings toward him. But then he took the Water of Life, and this transformed him into a person she did not understand anymore. No-one understood what he was going through. And when he used the Lisan Al-gaib identity to create fanatical religious loyalty to him, that was a huge betrayal and a total reversal of what he had talked to her about before. Him arranging a marriage with Princess Irulan was really just the final straw. The moment where she realized she could not be around the person he had become.
Fremen are a very practical people and know exactly the kinds of things they must do just to survive. Jealousy is not a thing that they cultivate. However loyalty IS. It was not about Irulan so much as her questioning if her loyalty to him was well-placed.
I think 'brat' is not really an accurate term here. It was a very difficult situation for both her and Paul, with a lot of strong feelings going on. It is always easy for someone to look in from the outside and say 'You are being unreasonable', but no human alive will be in a situation that involves passionate feelings stemming from highly complex situations, and simply choose the 'rational' path. No-one.
I hated the way DV changed Chani into some secularized girlboss. It was cheap pandering the story didn't need.
So true. The movie adaptation of her definitely looses her feminine faithful side. Was a bit jarring. Like who are they trying to appeal to? . I guess girl bosses and betas lol
@@keepkalm777 They also stripped her of her religiosity. She wasn't supposed to be a sullen skeptic. It was blatant pandering to modern audiences (which defeats the whole point Herbert was trying to make).
@paulfrantizek102 wow, very good point!! 💯
Ugh. That word. 'Pandering'. Making a character with depth and nuance is not pandering, it is good writing. Her being female has nothing to do with it. If it were 'Paula and Chano' that nuance and depth would still be a sign of good writing. I find there is this notion going around that male is default. Male can be nuanced, can have depth, history, feelings, and motivations, NP. But do it with a female character, and it becomes 'pandering'.
I agree. DV, for whatever reason he gave, completely screwed the pooch at the end of Dune 2. He literally erased Leto I, who, in the original story, was killed at Sietch Tabr in a raid by Harkonnen/Sardaukar forces. And Chani's change in character in the film is indicative of what Hollyweird does in retconning the actual story behind Dune. The two films are magnificent in a technical sense, but it's not Frank Herbert's Dune, that's plain and simple. Whether if it was DV's decision solely, or he was urged to make the changes, it was a huge error in judgement.
I cannot see how they can repair the damage done by his radical change of Chani's character. It will look so contrived as to ruin the story line totally. It also puts Leto II and Ghanima in purgatory, so to speak. I am both looking forward to see what happens, and not looking forward to see the mess that has been created. It will be extremely difficult to do. Trying to "modernize" the Dune saga is just another failure of vision and a slap at the foundation of the entire story. They didn't need to make Chani a "modern woman" and taking on the supposed dichotomy of the Fremen just took away the proper focus of the story. And all the "white messiah" nonsense is just that, nonsense. Anyone who really knows the story is aware that Paul is actually a villain because of the ensuing galaxy-wide jihad. And they can leave patriarchy out of it because the females of Dune have tremendous power due to the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood.
DV did not choose........wisely.
and the Fremen chicks where already strong independent wemen
You can either like or hate David Lynch's version, but at least the Spacing guild played a big role, he included a subtle time skip where the Freman made gains against the Harkonnens, as well as Alia being born and played a crucial role in Paul's plans and Chani was Paul's woman til the end. (*edit Even though it was portrayed that Chani fell in love with Paul after he knocked her out.😂)
Looking back at it, David Lynch's Dune was one of my favorite sci-fi movies as a kid in the 80s. Paul really appealed to me because he had the typical anime main character troupe. Paul went from there's something special about him to he is the one. I never got that feeling from Denis' version.
Some of the worst mistakes one can do is to scroll down in a comment section, because of the risk of treating your table as Eric Andre treats his, but in the case of this comment section, I am having a blast, especially because I am constantly like "I am not the only one!", but most importantly because you people are expressing what I couldn't. Sometimes, I don't like movies or shows, or aspects of them, but I can't explain why. You nailed it with your last statement about Paul. That was the little splinter in my mind. Thanks.
YES. Kyle MacLachlan is the better Paul for me.
I really struggle with Chalamet as Paul. I just don’t like his version of Paul. His eyes always look dead.
Having a strong and independent Chani is a problem in a story where the point is that no one is strong or independent, not even Paul.
It is not a problem. It is a major point of the story. Herbert used his stories as a means of questioning the validity of free-will. The friction between historical inevitability, and personal choice was a huge source of the drama in his books. A good story does not attempt to smooth over conflict.... it uses conflict as a driving force in the narrative.
Denis is an all-time great director. He made too many changes in D2 however. It was disappointing. D1 was much more faithful and better, IMO.
I found Part One a bit emotionally insipid honestly. Edit: And I say it being a big fan of most his movies and of Part II
I was bored by both.
If we were just to take it on Dune, DV would be nowhere near being a great director..
In a day and age where everyone's looking for strong female characters, how they can take a franchise with some of the strongest female characters in literature and screw them up so badly is beyond me.
Exactly, he portrays them as emotional incompetents
Maybe they didn't read the book before making the movie... just watch the first movie and cherry pick plot points and character names.
@@OnceAndFutureKing13711 the Paul Verhoeven method LOL.
One of the biggest problems is that these strong female characters are always written like stoic invulnerable and flawless men. They reject all femininity because they see it as weak which is sexist. Apparently the only way to be strong or aspirational is to be masculine, and I wouldn’t even argue that it’s in the healthiest or most realistic way. Especially because men and women do function differently in society no matter how we wish it ideally weren’t like that. The masculine power just seems more ideal because it is so glorified and better, whereas feminine power is subtle and looked down upon. But they both come with sacrifices and downsides. And the bigger the power the bigger the responsibility.
Being strong means to have human flaws, accept them, reflect on them and manage + overcome your struggles with an optimistic mindset. It requires vulnerability, being dumb and naive and learning from that. It requires growth. Being strong requires first being weak to get to that. Those qualities are not limited to men. They exist in all people.
The writers in Hollywood are afraid of showing real human flaws and growth into badass aspirational figures we can relate to. I have a suspecting feeling that they don’t write characters like this much (especially in women because they’re pushing for that agenda) or are unable to because they themselves are high on their own egos and unable to relate to humbling themselves and becoming vulnerable to going through those struggles and growth. Which ends up creating shallower and lower quality work. It’s indicative of narcissistic personalities who struggle to relate to others and aspire to project perfection, which is ultimately fake.
@@mochalotte4702 I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you never read Dune. I may be wrong, but I say this because your criticisms point out the very issues I have with the movie portrayal compared to the book. The Bene Gesserits strengths were entirely feminine: subtlety, honesty, self control and first-wave feminist bodily autonomy taken to the extreme (kind of) in their breeding program. They never seek to control, only to direct. They act as impartial judges between major factions, place their members in indirect positions of power, influence religious movements and engage in human husbandry. They rely on their ability to look back upon their past lives to learn from their failures and their breeding programs to shape the future. The Prana-Bindu teachings are Yoga taken to the extreme with their martial prowess being little more than a natural extension of this, like Shaolin monks. Their strength is more like a willow tree than an oak: the ability to bend and adapt rather than merely endure.
In this the Lady Jessica's greatest 'flaw' was her love of Duke Leto and her own self indulgence in giving birth to a son rather than the proscribed daughter (because the Bene Gesserit had become such masters of their own bodies that they could choose their children's gender during pregnancy). This is even more evident in the later works, namely Heretics of Dune where Love itself is that Heresy which, in itself, reflects the greatest flaw of the Sisterhood, their rejection of emotions, which the masculine often associate with feminine weakness (look at the origins of the word 'hysterical'). By the end of Heretics, however, that assessment is questioned with the suggestion that Love may have, in fact, been the Lady Jessica's greatest strength and the Sisterhoods rejection of emotions, rather than simply controlling them, had in fact been their greatest weakness.
Given that Lady Jessica was based largely on Frank Herbert's wife, Beverly, and the Bene Gesserits were influenced largely by expanding upon the tenets of first -wave feminism, I don't believe Frank was inflicted with the conditions you proscribe to modern Hollywood writers (which is an assessment I strongly agree with, it was biggest flaw in the Disney Star Wars fanfic trilogy). Best example I can think of off the top of my head from the series is in Children of Dune where Lady Jessica is forced to confront her failures with her daughter Alia which led to Alia becoming possessed by the shade of Baron Harkonnen and her eventual self destruction. There's a lot of really heavy introspection and self-criticism that I strongly doubt most modern writers would even dare to attempt.
In short I agree with your assessment of modern writers, particularly in the portrayal of strong female characters, I just don't believe it applies to the Dune novel.
Yeah, Chani storming out at the end of Part 2 really threw me, given what happens in Messiah. She knows that the Paul-Irulan Marriage is 100% political and she loves Paul enough that she’s ok with it. That’s what the book ends on, Paul’s assurance that he only loves her.
Something to remember, Jessica is the reason Chani understands this in every other version, because they had a close or at least amenable relationship normally. But with a relationship of pure mistrust and animosity between the two women combined with how short Paul's actual time on Arakis with the Fremen is in this version compared to the years and years of time he spends as a Fremen in every other iteration including the original source, Chani never gets that mentorship and understanding from Jessica in DV's adaptation. So here we are.
“Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she'll live as less than a concubine-never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she's bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine-history will call us wives.”
@@kartelUSM Exactly. Because DV decided to make Jessica and Chani's relationship 100% animosity, that conversation never happens. Chani never gains that understanding of how purely political marriages really function.
She didn't storm out because Paul wanted to marry Irulan, or at least that's not the main reason. She left him because he turned out to be the exact thing that she feared: an outsider that uses the Fremen as a means for his own agenda.
@ the manipulation was a factor too, I’ll agree.
Totally agree. It's interesting how the sentiment around Dune 2's changes, particularly regarding Chani, has changed. When Dune 2 first came out, I left the cinema feeling very confused and disappointed with how they handled Chani and how they were going to move on from it.
Mentioning that at the time online though, when everyone was just raving about the movie, had me crucified. There was basically no complaints allowed about the movie, particularly on Reddit.
Soon we'll be met with the reality that Dune Messiah is going to suddenly have to fix things or else look pretty much nothing like the book at all. But as you've said, there's basically no way to do this organically.
I felt that way about Leit Kynes in the first one. I mean thankfully the character dies so as not have to explain how the famous planetologist of Arrakis who is also Chani's father turned into a black woman with no back story
Exactly same. I was very confused and disappointed, I haven’t even watched the movie again. Is refreshing to see people waking up after being blinded of the mediocre script by visual effects
Chani in the new movies, I hated. She was a brat, and had an air of superiority about her. I loved her in the mini series. In the end when Paul was fighting and Feyd mentions her, she looks at Paul knowing he's worried and says "I am not afraid", she's supportive, loving, and puts others first.
At the end when Paul wins and the princess comes before him, he goes and stands and looks at Chani, in an obvious display to her and the Fremen people that SHE is his real wife, his love. It pays back all the respect, love, support, and sacrifices she has given.
I agree about the miniseries she is sapos to be Paul equal to appoint and she also should have supported him
I get what you mean about superiority, but I liked it. She was not raised in the feudal imperial system, so of course she would not see Paul in those terms. Who better to play the skeptic than Paul’s sweetheart who lives outside of his revenge plot?
@@DallasCrane Except that in the book, the assassination of her own father (Liet Kynes) by the Harkonnens helps to bond her with Paul in shared grief and desire for revenge.
The movie didn't even bother to mention Chani's crucial family ties (also Stilgar's niece).
She’s a stereotype
Well put. Denis dropped the ball on Keynes and Chani. Maybe just to appease a “modern audience” which is a total insult to the classic tale.
That scowl on Chani's face in your thumbnail is pretty much all I remember from Dune 2.
Lol same here
@@WickedScott Yes (Chani go grrrr), along with that silly chanting wail on perpetual loop.
Hulk smash? No, Chani Pout!
I actually thought her character was a boy when I first saw her on screen.
She's so awful
I finally watched D2 last week. I deliberately stayed away from in-depth reviews of it so I could make up my own mind. I was however aware of some of the issues people had with it but I was not expecting to be as disappointed in it as I was. I was expecting it to be like DV's D1 where though there were issues for me the good still outweighed the bad enough for me to enjoy it and if nothing else to let the scenery and world building carry me through it. But it was so much worse than I thought it would be. The changes were unnecessary, jarring, a betrayal to the story a lot of the time, and even within the movie's own world there were issues with things that just didn't make sense. I have no interest in watching Messiah now. Even the scenery and cinematography could carry me through D2. And for me there were multiple issues but the Chani issue was one of the largest. If there had even been a wee bit of chemistry between the actors it might have mitigated it a smidgen, but there wasn't even a spark. As for all the Zendaya stans who are having a go at you on x, dear grief. Going to show my age but in my day when 'fans' couldn't tell the difference between the actors and the characters they played people knew to inform security/police because those were inevitably the type of 'fans' who ended up stalking/harassing/harming said actors. Report, block and keep doing what you're doing. Having a voice of reason in the desert of madness is a precious thing nowadays.
worst part of Dune II was Chani. We had hints in the first part but the relationship between Paul and Chani was the reason he was able to become who was supposed to be. Instead she came across as petulant if not always angry at him
It doesn't help that Zendaya is not a gifted actor and delivered a one-note performance
She is not always angry at Paul. She is very supportive. Just angry after he takes the water of life and controls the Fremen.
Kinda the same as in the spiderman movies, idk why she is so popular.
Agreed really disappointed in how the second movie was changed
Totally agree
I was very underwhelmed with Part 2. I expect a huge drop off in Messiah.
Yeah, its strange how D2 went further away from the book and somehow omitted even more lore, characters, plot, etc... Still miss the navigators!
IMO the changes to the Chani character was the biggest mistake in Dune Part 2 and it left me feeling disappointed in the movie. I was disappointed in part to miss one of the top 10 lines in the book when Jessica said, “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine-never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine-history will call us wives.”
One guess on how the Chani-Paul story arc could be repaired would be to have Paul go to Chani upon the birth to the 1st baby Leto. This feels like a stretch to me but it is the best guess that I have.
That's beautiful. But everyone wants to be the queen.
@@DolphineAchonga-gn6kn But Princess Irulan became nothing more than a figurehead and historian.
@@DolphineAchonga-gn6kn "But everyone wants to be the queen." Wow, you know what EVERYONE wants! That's so cool... how did you gain access to that much data?
Maybe she will say that line at the start of the next film
it's because they made a dull movie and had to throw some kind of conflict into it. it's just damage control. Villeneuve doesn't really have a target for these movies, he just likes cinematic stuff and puts it everywhere. the essence of Dune is nowhere to be found
0:56 - "I think the changes for Chani is one of the weakest points of his [Villaneuve's] adaptation in my opinion."
Agree.
The thing I don’t care for with Chani the most is that he essentially just made her Siona from God Emperor. Frank wasn’t some sexist writing 2D female characters with no strength or agency. They were already complex and individual characters and he kind of just erased everything that made Chani.
The cries of sexism are pretty idiotic considering how much they reduced and bastardized Jessica's character in the movie adaptation.
They should've never ended the movie like that.
I think Villeneuve also over emphasized the Lisan al Gaib to the detriment of Paul's becoming the Kwizatz Haderach. They are both related obviously.
I was also disappointed with the Chani changes. I don't buy the time compression excuse. In the book Chani was pure Fremen and saw Paul as the messiah. This makes the whole story even more tragic and deep. Casting Zendaya was a mistake. When you cast such a big star you are obligated to make their character larger than it needs to be. They should have gone with a new actress. Another change I hated was making Lady Jessica so weak. In the book she was a badass and had no issues with controlling her emotions or having knowledge of the spice agony. Bene Gesseret were sometimes colder than Harkonnen.
Exactly. Its too much modern politics. He misses the point of the Fremen culture, its actually scary how united the culture is for their vision of freedom and creating a paradise.
How would the kids who crew up in Fremen culture dismiss their beliefs and culture? They are desert people in the end, where as Chani comes across as some Cali uni freshman
thats having her first "authority is wrong moment", its thinking of their culture as ours and it needs to stop. I swear movies and games are being more and more stupid. I dont maybe human race is being that so they need to simplify even more.
"Bene Gesseret were sometimes colder than Harkonnen" ... and of course, she was both.
@@SweetandFullofGrace
"...some Cali uni freshman..."
The real Chani would never have derided her own uncle like this movie creature did.
I am happy that I am not the only one that thinks zendaya was the wrong choice. Single handedly ruined Paul and Chani's relationship. She truly can't act even if she followed The directors lead.
@@mr.puddintater1805 You are not alone, we are actually many.
Imagine if Deni just stuck WITH THE FUCKING BOOKS!
But a wahmen able to cut sardaukar like paper was not stronk and independant enough, she had to opose Paul and be insufferable¡¡¡¡
@@myvideosetc.8271basically....
@@myvideosetc.8271Considering the absolute state of Hollyweird, I’m certain this is exactly why Chani was ruined in the new films.
Very few adaptations can "stuck" to the books. Blade Runner, Jurassic Park are good example of great adaptations that differ widely from their written counterparts. LOTR managed to stay true to the books for the most oast but Dune is much more dense and some streamlining is welcome.
@@triciclosonido Stuck does not mean put it all, just dont make the character something else entirelly.
I’m not sure how Denis thought making the love interest also be Pauls biggest detractor would work out.
In the books, Stilgar's relationship with Paul said more about the gulf Paul felt when a friend became a worshiper.
Chani falling off was so bad but the worst was Feyd being tested with the gom jabbar. The entire point of Feyd is he is an animal. Hes disposable once his genetics are used to bridge the gap between Atreides and Harkonnen. He's the antithesis to Paul.
Shame as he, according to the Herbert/Anderson books, was the son of the Barron's brother, Abulurd and his wife - Rabban's parents. They were the good Harkonnens. Feyd is only a psycho because he was raised by the Baron and Rabban...parents of the milennium.
He was supposed to be a potential Kwisatz Haderach in the real books, not the fanfic, so I was okay with that.
@@3091181 Facts. This ruined the whole thing for me also. It's like he doesn't really understand how that would be the most awful decision in the movie to make. Feyd is 100% controlled by his primal instincts. The needle would have went thru his neck with the quickness.
@mysticlegion8088 exactly! He claims to be a huge fan of the source material since childhood and completely botched Feyd.
@CantankerousDave no, not even close.
The changes made to Chani and Stilgar were so drastic that it spoiled the adaption for me.
Yes, that's how I see it too. I'm not sure I'll bother watching the next one.
@@kurishiiu Yep.
It’s a 4 year gap in the book between the Atreides loss at Arakeen and where it picks up after Jamis’ funeral. Also, Chani was a member of their priesthood in the books, she wasn’t some rebellious teen personality, but a more mature young woman in the books.
WHY Directors and Producers REFUSE to STICKING to the lore is baffling...IT'S NOT YOUR STORY TO CHANGE!!! As much as I like these movies, they will ALWAYS be FANFICTION and NOT a true telling!!! 🙄
They did the same with Foundation
Not true, they purchase the right to use the license. The license owner is the only one who can dictate the rules of that sale. Remember, these are made to make the most money possible... not to honor the author.
Zendaya would be the last person i would ever consider for the role of Chani , and wonder how much she influenced the role whilst making the film, and didn't see much chemistry nor any understanding of it by the actress lol
its hard to have chemistry with a frowny plank of wood.
Honestly I just do not get what people see in her at all... Never liked any of the roles she's played in.
The last person I would ever consider to play Chani is Stephen Colbert.
@@mikekopack6441 clearly she hits that diversity hire, that's all that some people care about.
Totally, I don't see what's supposed to be so good in her. I find her bland.
It occurred to me after rereading Dune that Paul is arguably addicted to Channy before he meets her during the crossing.
Channy is Paul’s literal dream girl due to his prescient abilities manifesting as dreams growing up on Caladan that when the two meet during Paul’s and Jessica’s crossing, Paul is immediately drawn to her.
In fact the attraction Paul has for her is so strong that a few lines after Jessica has changed the waters of life and pieces together Paul and Channys attraction, she thinks to keep them apart, but it’s already too late as Channy took Paul to another room after they both drank the water.
I think Herbert did this as a way of showing the different kinds of addiction (and later possession) there is.
Cookies.... Thank you, that was perfect. That is exactly how I feel!!!
I'm glad you liked it! 🙏
It was ass
@@ER-cs8qq T.R.O.L.L that spells TROLL!
They did Chani dirty in this evolution of Dune. I really preferred to the sci-fi channels representation of Chani
The sci-fi version showed Chani as being "strong" and meaningful to the story (not a token, not a submissive, etc...). Not sure where "strong" turned to angry and bitter.
Agreed! In both Dune & Children of Dune, Chani was her own person and devoted to Paul at the same time. The scene between her and Irulan in Children was especially powerful and completely invented. It’s really too bad that such a talented filmmaker has wasted such a wonderful opportunity to repeat what had been a winning formula in the past.
does Chani even have a personality? I don't know what Paul sees in her.
@@CarnisianLady Find out for yourself, watch the other versions or even read the book.
@@CarnisianLady
Original book Chani is a Fremen.
Further, she is the daughter of a huge Fremen leader.
She dreams with getting her people on top.
She dreams with getting her planet on top of the universe.
She dreams with changing her planet and improving it.
All those dreams are possible with Paul and book Chani 200% commits with it all.
She wants her children with Paul to rule the universe as Fremen. She wants her kids to have Fremen culture and rule the universe with it.
Ohhh...and yes, she is deeply in love with Paul. She will place her own life on line if need be.
Ultimately this all explains why book Chani ends as she ends. Why she really wants to sacrifice everything for her children with Paul. Its her ultimate goal. And she will not let Irulan mess with it. She will have Irulan for breakfast and show what a true strong female really is. By being willing to give her life for her goals and show Irulan how far she is willing to go.
Now tell me this is no personality lol
Simple answer is you don't reconcile it. Having gutted Chani's character in part 2 completely messes with major plot points in Messiah. I miss book Chani too. However Denis brings them back together would be so ham-fisted and cringey after how he ended the last movie. It's a mess already.
I didn't like how critical she was of him, it made no sense, especially not when the entire plot is about how fanatical and united the Fremen are together in their cause.
Spot on. He committed a bit of a train wreck with Chani's character, and I was thinking the whole time how that derails Dune: Messiah. We shall see, but yeah. Ouch. 🥺
The love story of Pau and Chani was one of the most beautiful things in the series. It moved me and broke my heart when Paul was saying "Disengage, disengage!" because he saw what would happen to Chani if he waked away from all that he saw was coming. DV needs to fix the mess he made of Paul and Chani or for me Dune Messiha cannot be made into a film anything like the beauty of the book.
3:57 I don't think Paul betrayed Chani. He warned her if he went south everything would change and she still pushed. He did everything he could to avoid it, but decisions were made for him.
I think the way Paul and Chani will re-unite in the upcoming movie will be during the “Stone Burner” scene. I have a feeling that Paul will have a prescient vision of her dying from the explosion and he makes sure he saves her. Once he saves her, the Stone Burner goes off and he and his men are blinded from the blast. In the aftermath, she will be comforting him and once she realises the horrifying lengths he went to as the most powerful man in the universe to save her, she realises his love for her is truly real and she forgives him. This would tie in to them hooking back up and sets the stage for the tragic climax that we see at the end of the second novel. But that’s just my theory, for now 🤷♂️
Agreed, the changes weren’t needed. Other then Liet-Kynes, Chani’s portrayal keeps me up some nights. Denis didn’t have to flip a main character for something that was explained in a few sentences. Yes, I hope it changes in Messiah….
Originally, I felt offput by the Liet change, but looking back, the role in the book allows for the role to be changed. He was a plot device that was used to introduce exposition and move Paul from Arrakin to the deep deserts.
Even his death in the book, though tragic, ends there in the desert alone, and the book bear no mention except in a short blurb of his passing and quickly move on.
The Chani change is what threw me for a loop. And I have expound enough about the change that I make other book nerds say I need a time out so I won't go on.
"Agreed, the changes weren’t needed."
Oh, you got that right! In the novel, Chani is NOT a major character and Denis Villeneuve wanted her to be one! 😖
Thats not true. the role does not allow for a change because the Imperium is patriarchal and wouldnt pick a woman to be much of anything, much less an imperial ecologist of the most important planet in humanity's history and future. It ruins a lot of social commentary you could have around the movie, because it's all defanged and made to be a non issue.
@@kineticstar
@humbleopulence Liet has never been to the capital. If you read, he inherited disposition from his father. The royal position may be male oriented, but there is no stated rule in the book that says it is the case for lower positions within the bureaucracy in the book.
Also, why so angry about a movie and a book that you seemed to not truly understand. The women in Dune are all on equal footing or a higher place than most of the men.
Fremen women both fight and raise children. There was no room for established norms when being hunted was an everyday occurrence.
The sisterhood has the thrones in hand with one of their own as princess. Do you really think they would let Fyde rule if he married Irulan?
Jessica advised Leto in all facets of his life up to his death, even when there were misplaced doubts about her loyalty. She was a capable fighter and diplomat. All of which disproves your established social norms.
@kineticstar i don't think you understand the Dune world. Women are second to men throughout the Imperium. The men have noble wives and concubines and the Bene Gesserit are seen, by and large, as cunning and manipulative witches, and yet they portray themselves, publicly, as simple matchmakers for the noble houses.
That means that throughout the Imperium, men and women are NOT on equal footing, and that is part of the commentary of Frank Herbert on this possible future that he delineates in his Dune books. It's not supposed to be aspirational! It's supposed to show you something you DON'T want to live in and should make you want to avoid its coming. That's what sci fi is about.
Also, the Fremen being equal to each other, male and female .... Yeah.... Thats the Fremen, not the Imperium. The point of the Fremen is to show Paul that things can be different. You then think that he will be a good leader, because he has the best of both worlds - the noble and the savage - with which to make proper decisions.
This ends up being another part of the critique by Herbert - you may have good intentions but you're still operating under spite, resentment and vengeance, which Paul is (his dead son, his relationship with Irulan, his estrangement of Stilgar). These are all part and parcel of why Paul fails to fulfill his promise.
So, I'm sorry, it is you that appears to not understand this world
Agree. I think Chani's resistance is a contemporary concession about young independent women but in the novels Chani was clearly a warrior and Paul's moral centre to balance Jessica/Sisterhoods machinations. A turnabout in the next film will compromise her Freman resolve and ultimately weaken her character.
Paul and Chani's relation was so jarring at times. One scene she's laughing at him with the others, next scene she's helping him do his survival challenge. One scene she expresses her anger at the prophecy, the next scene they're spending the night together. It was like "what is going on here?" And y'all thought Anakin and Padme's love story was badly written... lol
it didn't help that they had like zero onscreen chemistry either. dont get me wrong, I loved both movies, but paul and chani's relationship just felt so cold and forced
ouch. i had blocked that out. you just made Gorege Lucus cry with joy.
The movie version of the character honestly never would have hooked up with Paul to begin with. She's too suspicious and adversarial.
ahahahh. Perfect picture of her on the thumbnail. Looks just like a teenager that has been told "You are NOT going out to the school disco dressed like that young madam!" heh heh
yeah, the frowny performance just wasn't it for me. I know the actress is doing the direction she's been given. Don't blame her.
But from the point of view of the story, it is a completely logical and good decision. Chani was taught all her life not to cry, not to waste water. And what happens when you can't let go of negative emotions, you just let them accumulate? you will be angry and frustrated with desperation.
@@Skywater101no, blame her, lol. Zendaya is awful at acting
I think the Stilgar character also suffered in the new adaptation. In the new movies, he was a religious fanatic from the start. But it the books, he began as a cautious leader, and his belief in Paul was a lessening of his soul.
Stilgar is a joke in the movie, just full on Monty Python life of Brian vibes, and I think deliberately as it's so obvious. It got to the point where every time he went doe eyed and gushed about Paul being the messiah I was waiting for Chani pout like she swallowed a turd nugget and say in her best terry Jones voice "he's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy".
The scale is the only thing they nailed for me, in Villeneuve's defence it does state in the credits that they are "based" on the novels, but they are are mess.
@@gs8494yeah the way they handled the religion felt borderline offensive. That scene where Chani is making fun of Reverend mother ritual and then Stilgar being like “he is the messiah” caused the theater to laugh, and that really took me out of the whole thing because the Fremen religion is so well developed. Even irl ex believers don’t have that level of contempt for their faith or community. It felt like new atheist cringe (I say this a someone who isn’t religious too).
Overall, Dune was amazing but I couldn’t figure out why they changed the Paul/Chani dynamic. It could have been done more faithfully to the book without losing anything.
I had so many people who were fans of Doom. Tell me to watch the first one, I watched the first part, I cautiously thought it was okay
And then my wife and I went and watched Dune part 2, I was absolutely furious.
I am sick and tired of people taking these books and thinking they can do it better than the original author
Its not that they think they can do better, rather, they don't have any talent to create new, original art... just take someone else's art, paint over it enough to slap your label on it... earn the profit. These movies are made for money, not to honor to original author.
DV had two lay-up character development points which he muffed completely: 1) the murder of Paul and Chani's firstborn, to drive grief, rage and madness, but also provide a fulcrum for reconciliation 2) the complexity of Paul's love for his sister, who's obviously a dangerous freak and chaos agent, but she's still a true daughter of the house and of Duke Leto.
The mini-series versions used both far more effectively.
8:46 exceptionally well put. I’ve finished watching part two (4th time) 20 minutes ago and I had the exact same thoughts.
It sounds to me like you were a little frustrated by these choices for the changes made in this film adaptation. I have to agree if this is so, because it really did change the entire feeling of this movie when these changes were made.
100% agree with your thesis here, this is EXACTLY what I was telling my friends was a major problem after we first watched this film.
Your stuff is always top shelf. 🥃
Cheers to that! 😄
Considering that Paul has already said that Chani will forgive him i don't see what's to stop them from wrapping up this drama in the opening act of the movie. It serves its purpose in Dune 2.. i think the major problem with Chani wasn't the story change, but the fact that Zendaya only has one note, and there's very little else to her performance.
It may not have been intentional, but in the current state of the cultural zeitgeist, it is seen as "Woman smart, man stupid" where Chani sees things as it is, and Paul just ignores the manipulation becoming a religious warlord.
Missing was the book's portrayal how Paul was torn up as he didn't want to take this path, as he was able to see the Jihad that was to come but saw no other way to move forward without even more bloodshed.
In trying to make Chani a "strong woman", they took away what made her strong.
She instead came across as abrasive, a girl boss and in the end, someone who abandoned Paul when he needed her love the most.
I totally disagree, the ending of the movie made us THINK that Chani was leaving…however we never truly see her get on the worm and take off. Did she really leave him or was she going to come back?
I think they are both strong characters either way. Paul understands the path he must take, and Chani is our POV to realize he’s not a messiah. You’ll never have a true source material like dune come to the picture…it’s not commercial enough. This adaptation is excellent either way….
Women in this world are what you’d expect them to be….cunning, sneaky, manipulative. The men are generally warriors, except for the Fremen.
I guess I’m the only one who loves the changes to Chani for the movie. I love that she has more agency, I love that she is upset to see her lover use and oppress her people. We needed an audience surrogate because let’s face it people don’t have great media literacy these days. I wish they had more time to develop but oh well
Villeneuve was afraid that he would not get the green light for Dune Messiah, so he crammed it into the first book even if it destroyed the characters' relationships in the first book.
When Chani stormed off at the end of Part 2, I said to myself, "that's the reaction of a woman who just found out she's pregnant." I've only read the first book, and I'm not up on hints for Part 3, but I Villeneuve is going to make that revelation the thing that brings her and Paul back united
I agree. The SciFi miniseries was much better.
Their relationship in the book I think grows over five years. As you say they have a son which bonds them together even deeper. Also Paul is aware of what he is doing, using the Fremen beliefs to get his revenge, but he feels he has no choice, that his destiny is all that matters and he has to travel that road regardless. Chani and Paul have discussions in the book about it, he turns to her and his mother many times trying to explain to them how he is outside of their time, that he feels overpowered by his destiny. It's explored even more in Messiah. But also in the book the Harkonnens find their baby and kill him bringing them sadness and more reason to avenge themselves on their mortal enemy. That was taken out of the movie.
They could of shown all the internal struggle Paul has without using Chani, without making her an antagonist to him. In the book she always supported him and understood him, even if she didn't agree she had his back. In the movie its more like a 21st century relationship, as if Villeneuve didn't think the audience would understand what Paul was going through if he didn't have them see it through Chani's eyes and manner. And yet both the David Lynch movie from the 80's and the SciFi mini series managed to do the book justice in that respect.
DV girl bossed Chani too close to the arrkis sun. There's no coming back
This makes me think of the recent poll which revealed 20-something’s don’t want to see love and sex in their tv shows and movies. And here we have Paul & Chani not having any sort of core love and devotion in these movies. I was shocked when I saw Dune 2 that Chani WALKS OUT at the end ! What a weird choice!! And if DV does a time jump for the next movie, how will he explain the vast rift between these two, knowing what happens in part 3? Confused.
That's a really odd poll result. I can't imagine it actually represents the opinion of millions upon millions of people.
I didn't find this adaption of Paul to be charismatic at all. More like emotional and whiny. 🤷♂️
Most like to focus on Chani, but it is nice to hear something about Paul.
As always,good stuff,Nerd.
The Sc Fi channel miniseries managed Chani vastly better. Hell, Lynch managed Chani better. I get it that DV's version is really visually stunning, but some of the character story lines appear to have suffered from the emphasis on cinematography. Hard to even imagine what to make of any Dune Messiah effort, from the two movies we actually have.
I still prefer lynch’s version
agree. Dv had some great scenes that where very pretty but a bit to long and could have been used on say something like er the story.
I was so disappointed in Dune II. The changes ruined the story, but also I hate when these writers and directors think they know better than the real author. Making changes that destroy the story, the power of the story...
Buy a famous painting, paint over some parts, now call it your own!
Villeneuve broke Dune Messiah by breaking the Chani character.
For me these 2 films both felt rushed despite the total running time. They were thin, lacked story, lacked depth, and for all the fab visuals they are instantly forgettable films because you don't care iota for the characters.
I have no more expectations about DV's tale of Dune . I feel that many aspects of Herbert's Dune saga have been ignored, and the films are mostly a simplistic interpretation of Paul Atreides messianic journey where the rich Duneverse loses its complexity and transcendence.
I am more curious about how the Tleilaxu will be introduced in the story along with Duncan's ghola (If DV does it,) but I suspect the story will delve, locally in Arrakis, mainly around Paul's empire and the attempts on his life, right until his fall from power.
My guess is that she's already pregnant when she leaves at the end of Dune 2. If Denis' plan is still to have Chani die then Paul is going to have to go search for her and convince her to come back. Her arriving back from the desert visibly pregnant creates the immediate tension to motivate Irulan to poison her (yes, different from the book) but, aligns enough to maintain important story elements.
If Paul and Chani spend time alone in the desert while she's pregnant it could definitely build the deep love in their relationship that you are absolutely correct in saying is missing.
At this point Paul might as well be going to war with Chani next. That's why I like Lynch's version because the prophecy started out being bs, but ended up being true to everyone's surprise except the believers.
Villeneuve totally rewrote Chani for his Dune movies, he will just totally rewrite her for Messiah.
They killed Chani’s motherhood!!!
The issue is they tried to raise her personal self-importance and crippled her actual importance.
DVN's comments regarding his changes to Chani ring hollow to me. He did a fantastic job in most other respects with Dune's world-building and did so without any hand holding for the audience. But when it came to Paul's transformation he decided to hit the audience over the head with a hammer to reinforce his own interpretation by drastically changing Paul and Chani's relationship and making Jessica and Chani's relationship far more antagonistic than it should have been. Combine that with Zendaya's track record and I think this was largely a nod to the 'modern audience' garbage that infests Hollywood, despite whatever DVN publicly proclaims.
Given DVN's apparent weakness when it comes to portraying relationships, I fully expect a time skip and handwaving to justify some sort of reconciliation between Paul and Chani. That is, assuming he does not double down by making Chani even worse than she was portrayed in Part 2.
Acutally, I think Denis is trying to keep the Dune Messiah plot-lines easier to manage going forward. By having a baby Alia and baby Harkonnen, the whole spiritual possession by the Baron can be regulated to a singular character (baby Harkonnen). This helps the story avoid being bogged down by too many complex characters. In addition, Paul and Chani's twins will represent the future ying and yang of the Kwisatz Haderach, with Leto ultimately deciding to take on the leadership roll as God Emperor.
"...too many complex characters." Wow. Explains a lot. Probably best to read or adapt a different book if you can only handle very simple plots.
Honestly with the changes they've been making so far, it wouldn't surprise me if they made Ghanima the one who follows the Golden path.
Denis Villeneuve really painted himself into a corner. I agree, he weakened Chani’s relationship with Paul. Watching Part One and Part Two, I could see how a viewer unfamiliar with the books would think, “Why, since the beginning, is Paul putting up with her suspicious and combative behavior? With his growing power and status among the Fremen, he could easily find a love interest who wasn’t so distrustful and sour.”
Chani, of course, was a significant person in Paul’s life and important to his well-being. However, she was really a supporting character, not a main one, in the books. If I remember correctly, readers never get to see inside her head and hear her inner thoughts as they could with the chapters showing Paul, Jessica, Thufir, Gurney, and Duke Leto’s point of view. Frank Herbert often kept her in the background.
I would have preferred that they had hired an actress who wasn’t well-known to play Chani (as well as Princess Irulan). Because of Zendaya’s and Florence Pugh’s flavor-of-the-moment star power, it also feels like their roles were enlarged and made more important to please them and their agents, instead of casting actors who would be of service to their roles, however large or small.
Villeneuve and his team turned Chani and Irulan into girlbosses. The Fremen, while varying in their beliefs, were all religious. Yes, Chani in the books was not aware of the Bene Gesserit’s manipulation with their Missionaria Protectiva. None of the Fremen were because it was a guarded secret. But no, the director made Chani an atheist who was privy to special secret information without a plausible reason, one of a minority who knew the real truth, and who also viewed the religious Fremen as fools. Book Chani was a Sayyadina, an acolyte in training to be a Fremen Reverend Mother. She grew up preparing to play a religious role in her society. Chani was tough and had good fighting skills, but she wasn’t a Fedaykin, a badass professional commando.
The director changed Princess Irulan into Reverend Mother Mohiam’s best student. She was made so perceptive that she was a better strategist than her father, the Emperor. Book Irulan was the opposite. She was viewed as a failed Bene Gesserit by the Sisterhood. She was beautiful and of royal birth, thus eligible to be married off to someone of high rank (Dune is set in a partriarchal feudal future, after all). Herbert gave no indication that she had a great mind. Her desire to be a historian was not taken seriously by others. But no, Villeneuve’s version of Irulan made her into a future formidable Empress, more clever than her intelligent father.
Incidentally, Christopher Walken was miscast in Part Two. He gave a frail, low-energy performance. Book Emperor, though he was 72, looked younger, like a man in his mid-thirties. He was cunning and exuded vitality, qualities that Walken did not embody.
It will be interesting to see how Villeneuve course-corrects his interpretation (which he needs to do) in the third movie.
I think the same about more unknown actors. I was thinking of commenting on it but I've got lost in the comments and found yours. That's the problem with stars, especially with, as you said, flavor of the moment stars. I am sick of seeing the same faces everywhere to be honest, Dave Bautista included. I can't stand Pough, although she is a good actress. Zendaya, I can't understand what do people see in her, at any level. I just can't, I don't get why is she a star. And next, Ania Taylor-Joy, AGAIN. I like her, and yeah not gonna lie she makes me feel... things... ngrrr ngrrr lol, and yes, I think she can play crazy/scary really good. But her, again! And Momoa everywhere. Who's next, the fkg Rock? Gosling? I have stars of the moment fatigue.
I also agree, absolutely, with what you say about the eyeroll/flip the table inducing girlbossy changes for that modern audience that doesn't exist. It's sickening. It destroys completely the whole point of the story. That's why I can't stand the argument of "it's not wokeness bruh, it's bad writing bruh, why so angry for propnouns lol". These people can't understand that the bad writing is exactly the direct consequence of wokeness. You can't adapt a story set in a feudal and patriarchal society if your woke demands ruin that premise, which is what makes the story interesting in the first place. They are doing it with WH40K. These people mean to tell me that in a setting where the """good guys""" are extremely xenophobic and wear human skulls as ornaments, every minute of the miserable existence is a struggle to survive, and there are thousands of fates much worse than 'unaliving', the important thing is trans rights and equality? WTF! It's impossible to write a good story about vikings, if in a viking village they are celebrating a multicultural pride parade lead by their non binary muslim black queen. It's impossible to be good. There's nothing interesting in it. That's why the modern audience doesn't exist, only in the MSM, because even the supposed modern audience get absolutely bored by all this bs.
DV's Dune is not that ridiculous yet, but these changes are close to ruin it all. Let's see...
I loved Chani in the books, she was terrible in the movies.
What's funny about Villeneuve trying to make Chani the anchor character for the audience is that most people ended up disliking or just not caring for her character. It wasn't necessary at all. Let the audience figure out what's going on through the events of the story. The more I think about the second movie the more I have problems with it.
Great video! 🙌
I get what they were trying to do with Chani in the part 2, But I don't feel that of all things that was what least worked. I never got the sense that Paul and Chani were really connected, and it turned into more of a conflict and a shadow of what could have been. I think the audience already understood the fake messiah theme, and having Chani explain it just gave her something to do. Personally, if I were the filmmaker, I'd drop Chani's character development and just let her play out her role as written. No shade on Zendaya, but she never quite owned that part.
Making such a character and giving it to some one who doesn't have the acting range or capacity like Zendaya was the first mistake...so the role was smoked from the start...
You are incorrect. The character of Chani is not realistic. She was written as a doting follower of him and this dynamic is FAR MORE realistic and interesting. This adaptation is fantastic and he gave her power and her own mind dedicated to her people. People need to stop whining about his presentation of her. It is excellent. He did it perfectly.
This particular change wasn't as well thought out as it should have been.
The changes made to Chani remind me a little of Peter Jackson's changes to the character of Faramir in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Faramir, like Chani, was a character that used compassion and wisdom to overcome problems. Faramir was supposed to model the post WW1 warrior (as opposed to Boromir, who modelled the pre WW1 knight of valor archetype) who rather than find honour in great deeds of war, valued wisdom and knowledge, was strong because he acknowledged his weaknesses and moved forward despite of them, who was kind and wanted to protect the beauty of the world rather than destroy it. In The Two Towers, Peter Jackson incorrectly portrays Faramir as being tempted by the power of the One Ring to please his father, rather than outwardly reject it, in order to make it more relatable to the audience. And I don't agree with this change because it undermines Faramir as a paragon of kindness and compassion, something that we need more of in stories. Chani is pretty much the same. She is a powerful woman because she provides Paul with the human connection through her love and devotion, she keeps him on track from turning into a mindless, soul-less killer by standing by his side in the toughest of times. Like Peter Jackson with Faramir, I don't think Denis Villeneuve fully understood the purpose of Chani's virtues, as much of Frank Herbert's original intentions he wanted to honour. We need the character of Chani not because she's a passive female who's only job is to love Paul (and not fighting like a girlboss), we need her because of her compassion, her wisdom and her heart to love. Those are paragons of excellence that we should strive to embody in our life. We need virtuous characters as much as we need flawed ones.
In the words of CS Lewis, "we make men without chests and expect from them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst."
There's a difference between someone's "interpretation" of a book, and someone trashing and deliberately changing an entire theme.
I agre 100% with you on this. This is how they are gonna go around it. Chani is gonna show up and say to Paul ,, I love you ,, and that will be that. I was also pissed with what they did with Chani. She knows that hers and Pauls love is real, mirroring Letos and Jessicas love and that he have to marry princess for political reasons, and they made her stupid and childish
I think Denis never intended to make Dune Messiah, so he thought he had to cram the "dangerous charismatic leader" theme into the first (split) movie, on its own. He didn't care about the damage he was doing to the rest of the character arcs in Dune, as long as he got that message across, due to whatever reasons he had that made him think that was THE only, and main theme he needed to address out of all the concepts brought up in Dune.
The change to Chani was despicable, to me. I've covered my gripes with this in past comment sections, but I could write essays on it.
Really does undermine the story entirely, for me. It just makes so little sense even with how they set it up.
Or the diversity police was breathing down his neck
@@NameNotAChannel A very plausible and depressing thought.
That's what bugs me to, because dune is supposed to end on a high note. You're supposed to feel like you concluded a traditional heroes tale, only for messiah to come in and pull the rug out from under you and realize what happens after a revolution is not pretty.
@@derek96720 he probably was forced into it for political reasons. I believe he is clever enough to know the story so undermining it himself probably is out of fear of modern audience outrage than anything else
It does discredit his artistic integrity as I think he is a coward but I don't believe he is stupid to not realize how he harmed his own Movie by doing it
The audience doesn't need CHani to see how dangerous a Messiah is, we literally seen it from the first movie with his dream and the nightmare he suffered of what he was about to unleash
I see a lot of comments from people who are fans of the books..and as an adaptation..I agree with a lot of these critiques..however when I talk to people who never read the books..they don’t have any of the same issues…at least the newcomers I talked to, who are casual Sifi fans gave it high praise
In the book it always felt like Chani had pauls back and always trusted what he was doing.. the movie adaption does a disservice to the character.
The problem is that it's the Chani character that becomes the sceptic. She should have been the blind lover/follower that she was from the books. They should have kept Liet alive and Liet should have been the sceptic. They could have killed her off during the Jihad and would have had a great relational dynamic with Liet's death and Chani's love for Paul and yet seeing the consequences of the Jihad.
I really don't think Zendaya is a good enough actress to pull off the work that's being asked of her. She stuck out like a sore thumb in the second film.
It was such a dumb thing to do. If you look back, it's never once mentioned in the movie that Jessica isn't actually married to Leto, that she's only a concubine. Them NOT being married is a vital piece of political information that directly led to him stupidly leaving out the closing line of the book - “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she'll live as less than a concubine-never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she's bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine-history will call us wives.”
Denis Villeneuve can say what he wants about why he changed the Chani character, but in book those changes were made to please MODERN Hollywood and to have more emphasis on women and particularly STRONG women. 🤦♂
Sorry Denis, but you're NOT more intelligent than Frank Herbert and you RUINED Dune Part 2 for me; Part One was quite good, but Dune: Messiah, I'm OUT. 😖
I wouldn't be surprised if Paul Atreides was a side character in Messiah where we're gonna get the story of four(4) women: Lady Jessica, Alia, Chani and Irulan.
With the fact that dube prophecy aka dune space witch's comes out right before I have that woke bait and switch feeling in my gut concerning part 3....
Not only were the changes made to Chani the worst changes for any characters, besides completely removing mentats and the guild, Zendaya was the worst actor in the movie.
Denis Villeneuve's arrogance and ego ruined the movie for me... changing things he shouldn't have changed. Chani was definitely one of those things. As goofy as it is in many ways, I prefer Lynch's Dune.
Lunch's Dune doesn't get enough credit because they removed an hour (I heard 2 hrs) from that movie. There are plenty of 3-6 hour versions of that movie but no clue how much is original content and how much is generated.
As a fan i wanted to walk out the cinema. Im all for changes but yhose changes have to make sense. He totally removed Her spiritual side by this change. If not for my friend keeping me in my seat i would have left.
I bet he just cops out and makes Irulan the mother of the twins.
In the book, Chani understood and knew the political implications of Pauls decisions and as a result she fully supported Paul without question. In the DV version, Chani was basically a pouty 12 year throwing tantrums all the time.
Chani in these movies is incredibly unlikable and abrasive, compared to book Chani
I have a feeling Denis made this decision to create more conflict for the adaptation of Dune Messiah for the on-screen audience, due to it being a fairly short book that's very dialogue heavy. I was a bit pulled back by his decision to drastically change Chani's character Arc but I've got faith in his directoral process for the upcoming film
It wasn't just her opposition and her storming out at the end, but DV completely skipped over and changed the role Chani had in allowing Paul to become a Fremen leader in the first place, due to her being both the daughter of Liet (a figure all the Fremen had united under) and the niece of Stilgar (the Naib of Sietch Tabr).
Instead, the race and gender swapped Liet became just a forgettable blip with no real apparent role in the movie beyond supplying Paul and Jessica with an escape route and getting a few Sardaukar eaten with her, while Stilgar is portrayed as some bumbling, fanatical fool unrelated to Chani and a foreign 'southerner' who she openly derides in the manner of a Californian feminist activist.
Her vitally important family relationships and the roles of her father and uncle were totally trashed, despite them being key to Paul's ascendancy.
It is completely appalling that DV ruined the adaptation that way.
The changes to Chani in Dune 2 didn't work for me at all. I love parts of the movie, but Chani, and especially her final scenes, really annoyed me. I don't even want to see Messiah at this point.