"What's the fun in that" You are absolutely right, it gives so much more to improve something you have, and to know that you did a better design than stock.
1) Stefan also said he wouldn't get a Deckel, sitting in front of his MB4 and 2 months later it was gone and he got a Deckel 2) bigger machines also have issues to solve.. so I don't see an end to "improve things"
Tool suggestion for the lathe: make an over sized centre for your tail stock, they're handy when you want to enter up on a hole to be enlarged (push the oversized centre into the drilled/bored hole, then snug up the jaws in the 4 jaw, and you'll be pretty damn close to having your part cantered)
in this case... time to make = content, content = channel engagement, and hopefully some money from the big red play button guys... also makes it a work write-off ;D
As always, I truly enjoy each and every episode that you produce. I was surprised that two things seemed to be missing in this video. The first was a lack making and cuts with the new clamp in place. The second was a lack of a before and after tool deflection clip. I dial indicator pointing down on the tool as it entered a cut with each of the two clamps would have been, and still could be, a great way of characterizing the improvement that the new clamp offers. Thus justifying the effort used to make with more than the pure joy of creating. Please do not take this as a criticism. I really liked going along on the ride with this build. Keep up the great choices of topics to produce.
13:41 I love outside the box ways to use tools like this. I've used regular woodchuck router bits as form tools for aluminum in my lathe and it worked extremely well.
They are ridiculously priced nowadays and all they are is an air ratchet on springs. They save a lot of time and I wouldn’t be without mine however if I had it to do over again I think I would have made both of them. There are real good videos on UA-cam on how to do it. Put that money towards a power drive for the knee on your mill which will cause you to really wonder how you got a long without something!
@@37yearsofanythingisenough39 I just ordered a power drawbar and power feed for my Y-axis right after posting the coment above. lol I could probably made one but I've put it off for soooo long that now I don't have time and I'm doing a lot of mill work. I totally agree that I need to put a power feed on the knee. That is a total pain in the arm to crank!
I really like the calm explanations of each operation revealing tips and good practice. Quietly informative like a technical machining course without being an obvious lecture. Very enjoyable to watch. Very envious of the kit you have to play with.
"where's the fun in that" I do agree that is one of the reasons i have been building my own equipment, i have my MILL at stage 1, 3 stages designed and currently working on the designs to build my lathe with of course the ELS that you designed. Love you channel. Thanks.
I hope you read this sir. I took a snap shot of the design as you said and I made it. You know what? Great job sir that reduced the chatter problem so much very happy great job it works
I made something similar for my little JET lathe and my EMCO. And it works very well. You might want to try AHCS in place of your studs, lower profile, and handy hex head to match your other lathe, fastners. I literally have dozens of soft copper and aluminum bits for protecting machined surfaces, but usually end up using pennies from my pocket, (usually all I have in coinage), because I can't find them in the clutter!!! Love your presentations. Hope to see you again at the BAR Z Bash. Tim
I am in the buy a better lathe group. You can't make a silk ear out of a sows purse. Wish I had done that myself. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
the fun in buying a better lathe comes with all the new projects you'll be able to do. Your new lathe might have a copy atachment, automatic feed on x and y axis, a bigger spindle bore, and a longer bed. You'll be able to do poligon turning on your new lathe through a CV axis mounted to the feed screw on the tailstock end. A real engine lathe will do things you've only dreamt of. For example, i have a Sn321 lathe. There's a guy on youtube called B B machine shop (germany) with this lathe, you can find it by searching sn321 and going down the list a bit. You can see that this lathe has many more features than a chinese clone lathe. It has clutch on the feed screw for automatic disengagement if the feed force gets too high ----- helps when crashing in a shoulder. It has a 4th feed rod with cams, it has cables going to the compound for automatic disengangement. i'm not even sure what this is for to be honest, my lathe came with those cables cut and they look like electrical. Taper attachment. This thing is as semi-automatic as it gets before cnc. Might even have variable surface speed for facing. 3Kw Motor for a lathe that comes with 750mm between centers. Available in 1 and 1.5 meter centers but that's already like twice as big as g0602.
i've done the solid riser very similar to yours. i am definitely going to do this update as well. i have seen several variation of this on the different channels but i like this the best as you have maximized the beefiness here. love the channel 🙂
Half the joy of owning Grizzly products is the improvement of the baseline tool - my 4x6 horizontal bandsaw has, for example, embellishments such as flood coolant / lubrication, hydraulics, multiple table extensions and a proper hand wheel for the vise. Similarly, my drill press has been tuned up with an improved table lock / rigidity set up and quill depth DRO. The base value of most Grizzly products is superb; with design improvements such as the ones you have made, they really come into their own from a value perspective IMO.
"Why not just buy ..." James, I completely agree with "what's the fun in that?!" A while back I was learning how to make a keyboard and someone suggested I just buy one. I've also had people suggest I just buy a newer version of Photoshop because I was writing my own image processing code to do something specific. Why *not* make your own tools if you know how to do so and have fun learning along the way?
Random thought and I expect you might be the guy to do it. If you can do active sound canceling with speakers, you should be able to do active chatter canceling for a cutting bit. Vibrameter on one end of the bit, driver on the other.
good work ! i cut new adjusting screw tips for the gibs. they were cones. i made flats under an 30 degree angle to the axis. better adjustable gib now ! try to press the compound slide by hand while cutting. you will see the flex motion on the part. i ll have to preload the slide against the force for turning the knob by hand.
Didn't know about the tariff on video cameras. Interesting. I'm curious why you cut the viewing window before boring on the lathe. I would think avoiding an interrupted cut justifies splitting your mill functions. Also, treat yourself to a Haimer gauge. Finding edges with a Haimer will be a breath of fresh air. Thanks for the idea for my next lathe improvement project.
Did the exact same a while ago made a huge difference I used to put jacks to stop the tip lol oddly enough the mounting stud for the original setup sheared the very last time I used it
If you already have invested a lot of time tooling up your machine and you don’t want to start again with a new lathe one thing that would improve yours substantially is scraping. When I took the King scraping class 3 guys brought in their compounds and 1 cross slide from the their grizzlies (not picking on grizz, all imports have similar issues) and when they blued them up on the surface plate the contact was awful. A few hours of scraping and there was an incredible improvement. I think the Chinese factories just slap ‘em together and there is no effort to get any kind of quality of fit. Also some have warped castings because they aren’t seasoned or stress relieved. The bonus is that to scrape you have to buy a bunch of new cool tools!
I am a great fan of 2 jaw keys for use with the 4 jaw chuck. They don't have to be as big as the main key, as you use them in tandem to reduce 4 jaw indicating time while still keeping some load to hold the part. Great idea for the better clamp for the top slide.
Another problem with these Chinese compounds is that the two parts of the dovetail impinge in the middle where there is not supposed to be any contact. This makes the upper part of the compound not contact on the intended mating surfaces. Thus it rocks under load. There are several YT videos about how to fix that problem.
IIRC you mentioned it when you made your solid tool post mount, but Robin Renzetti has a solid tool post mount on his Hardinge HLV-H (and did a video on it). Those are $50,000-$100,000 lathes, the only ones capable of holding equal or better tolerances are the Monarch 10EE. And it's *still* a noticeable improvement to take the compound off and put on a solid tool post mount! "Just get a better lathe" doesn't change the fact that every extra joint reduces rigidity. Of course you're not working with ±0.00005" tolerance bands like Robin seems to do regularly, so you might not notice the rigidity loss on a better lathe, but you're a bit of a perfectionist so you'd end up with the solid mount anyway.
You can definitely feel the difference on a better lathe, I took the compounds off all my big lathes (20hp+) it's a weak point no matter how big and tough the lathe is.
Excellent content as always. I don’t own this lathe but I’d bet real money that two (possibly larger) bolts (or studs and nuts) in the middle on each side of the clamp would be effectively as rigid as the six you have. I’m even more confident that the two middle nuts aren’t accomplishing much with all six tightened. Do me a favor, and perform some tests with an indicator while gronking on the compound with two, three (two on the tailstock side), four, and six nuts tightened. Might save you some annoyance when using the compound.
James, I started working on my clamp this evening. My 11x26 G9972z compound matches your G0602 on all critical dimensions, just in case anyone was wondering. The compound itself is a few thousandths wider but that's not significant. Like you, I started with 3/4" hot rolled mild steel. The question is, is there a mechanical reason like stability to remove the mill finish from both sides or is it for the sense of craftsmanship? Asking because I need to develop a better shield to protect myself from hot chips and haven't yet. I don't have a fly cutter so I use an R-8 Indexable End Mill with TPG32 inserts, 2" diameter. It slings blue hot chips in every direction. For anyone concerned about the movement of the clamp seen at around 19:40, the clamp itself is not a precision piece. The close fit is maintained by the stub coming out of the compound seen during the assembly at 19:00. Even though it requires a considerable number of operations, it's a great teaching project and hitting the dimensions dead on is not critical. I ended up taking my 3/4" raw material to .650" with a 3/4" end mill. The surface finish isn't as nice as James's but I was putting function before form. I didn't care for the finish so I tool 2 of the 3 inserts out of a 2" insert end mill and took off a few thousandths more to make it look better. After finishing the clamp and making a few pieces the difference is remarkable. The previous visible diving of the cutting tool is gone. Surface finish quality is better without any additional effort. It was 100% worth the time and effort to make the new clamp.
A weak spot on small lathes is the compound gib. Two problems with it. First is the type of gib. A straight slab using three screws for adjustment. Three screws isn’t enough, it should be four, or more. That type of gib isn’t rigid. The reason is that the three screws project out of the top dovetail to engage the gib. That means that the gib doesn’t engage the dovetail on both sides just the bottom dovetail. This allows the gib to wiggle under high loads. Secondly, when the compound is at an extreme rear position, it loses one screw, effectively, allowing the gib to move sideways a bit. The tapered gibs are much better and were designed long ago to overcome this problem as the gib is always 100% engaged with both sides of the dovetail giving much more rigidity. The second problem is for some reason that I’ve never understood, the compound gib is in the wrong side of the compound. My larger lathes all have the gib on the trailing side. The way this is, the pressure from the load is against that loosy goosey gib with the problems I mentioned, rather than against the solid side of the dovetail. This pressure tends to loosen the compound under pressure rather to tighten it which would be the case if the gib were designed and constructed properly. I’ve spoken to a few others with this problem. I’ve also looked at a fair number of lathes and almost all use the tapered gib on the right side of the compound rather than the left side. It’s something to look into, but correcting it means a whole lot of work which might not be worthwhile. But could allow the compound to be rigid enough to be used for most, or all work.
Hey James, you could grind a trepanning tool for the boring head. Always quicker to do another operation in the mill while the part is still set up. (Unless you have to grind a tool…)! 😂. Nice project!
The original clamp also considerably warps the cross slide, making adjusting the gibs impossible. Having just a few thou of clearance will avoid most of that 'fun'. the best lathe is the one you already have in the shop, anything else is dreaming :-)
Exactly what was happening on my (very similar/not Chinese) lathe. To clamp, the clamp needs clearance. If it has clearance it will distort cross slide as you tighten the clamp... Making clamp heavier/stronger solves little...
@@sblack48 there is a small (or in case of original large) amount of clearance between the bottom of the bracket Clough42 just made and the cross slide. This is what provides the movement to clamp the graduated dial. There are better designs but more difficult to adapt to this lathe style.
I have exactly the same lathe as yours and same issues. The cross slide flexes as well quite a lot. I ended up making another cross slide out of cast iron twice as thick and of course I lost some of the diameter I can machine now. I had to remake the compound base as well and kept the original moving part of the compound
Why on earth would you want to buy a “better” lathe when you can manufacture improvements to your own desires. 😁😁 Great video as usual. Thanks. Nice touch using a 3d model for proof of concept before committing time and material to the finished product.
I disagree that the original issue was because its a 2 bolt system - many high quality lathes (e.g. Monarch) only have 2 bolts. I'd like to see some tests on your new better clamp with and without the extra bolts to see if there is any measurable rigidity being added.
You could have made the flange thicker if you used button head screws instead of nuts and washers. If you were worried about them coming loose, just use medium loctite.
12:10 - hmm, I thought it was a _good thing_ if the chips picked up color, because it indicated that they were taking the heat away from the part?? Not so?
You would have a LOT more rigid set up if the complete base of compound was sitting on a flat surface. Even with 6 screws holding things together it still relies on the diameter of the plate (72mm) The torque applied by cutting forces is further from center and QCTP adds to the leverage available trying to tilt tool-post. Making the mounting much thicker you could machine a taper into center pin and have an external screw (s) to pull things down (then rely on extra surface area to keep things straight) It seems to work pretty well on Myford lathes (I don't have one and have never used one but have seen what's going on underneath compound)
I still need to do this mod to mine, just haven’t decided on a design yet. I’m thinking a better class of spindle bearings would be a great improvement as well.
@tmurray1972, I thought the same thing about my G9972z. Two things changed my mind. One, I took the compound off and cleaned all of the chips from underneath. Two, I got some better (name brand) inserts and started machining better quality metals. I'm using ISCAR DCMT070204/DCMT21.51 inserts with an IC907 coating now and can remove half a thou at will. I got them new in the factory sealed packages on Marketplace at a great price and they're amazing. Unlike most carbide, they give a great finish at lower rpm than most and do well when making shallow cuts, ideal for our smaller lathes.
A two axis ELS would seem like the obvious way to solve this problem. They work really well and are much easier and cut straighter than any compound slide.
@@Clough42 I did run ball screws but even with trapezoidal screws backlash is easily managed. A properly designed lathe doesn't hurt but I could make a POS emco cut just fine. (With a solid tool post)
Whats the difference in diameter on the hole in your cross slide and the pin in your compund? i would have thought that was supposed to be a tighter fit to prevent tilting under tool load from your cutters. i liked this video. good job
Hey, I also have a G0602 and something that’s always bugged me is the studs with nuts instead of just using a bolt. Can you explain the reasoning for using the studs and nuts on this project like what grizzly did, instead of simplifying it to 6 bolts?
More beefy doesn't mean better - the main issue of such clamps for compound slide is an unavoidable distortion of components - both the clamp and the cross slide. By making the clamp more beefy, You just shifted the weakness point from the old weak clamp towards the cross slide.
Correct. If you gronk down on it, the cross slide distorts as much as you want. Ideally, the clamping system would bottom two flat surfaces against one another, avoiding this distortion.
I've been thinking of this instead of a solid toolpost. And even tried looking for a compound off a big boy lathe to lash up onto mine. Interested to see how you find it after some use.
Nice work, that's a worthwhile improvement. I have essentially the same lathe and the OEM compound locking arrangement is woeful in terms of rigidity. Will you be leaving the new clamp in the white or applying a surface treatment as a means of corrosion protection, such as bluing or nickel plating?
Why spot the centre hole and then annular cut it? See as i have; centre drill and then set up in the lathe with a centre between it and the tail stock and you can better align it
@Clough42 Could you tell us where you bought the studs or post a link please? Thank you for sharing and please congratulate the boss lady for us on her fitness progress.
Or... you could put an ELS on the cross slide and do a 2 axis controller with a taper program. You could simulate the compound by having a mode where the cross slide motor is freewheeling (if your servo has the option) but the carriage lead screw is slaved to the encoder on the cross slide, so you can manually feed with the cross slide handle. I guessing you're resisting making a full cnc controller with a screen, but even 2 axis opens up so many possibilities it'd probably be time to add a screen You could do multi-pass threading and ball turning without gcode but there'd be too many parameters to show on a sensible panel of 7 segment LED
On second thoughts, better to slave the cross slide to the carriage handle, or you'd get pilot induced oscillation. It'd also work more like a traditional taper attachment.
Don't suppose your lathe supports a taper turning attachment on the back? My old Hardinge does and I adapted a different brand attachment to fit. Still loads of fun to be had with a "better lathe" there is always something new to modify. If you have never used one could you do a video on trying one out somewhere? Is that even possible?
just wondering. why not bore the hole with the bore head in the mill since it was already setup and centered from the angular cutter? apologize if this is answered by the end of the video.
The hole could be easily bored, but there's a shoulder that needs a flat bottom for clamping, and that's hard to do with a standard boring head. Maybe I need to get a boring/facing head. :)
That clamp has to be the worst piece of the entire lathe. I'm dismayed by how much it flexes when heavily (or moderately) loaded. Mine is very similar; the 11x26 G9972Z and most of the upgrades you've made are directly applicable to the 11x26. Thanks again for another great idea!
You said the solid toolpost was the 3rd best upgrade you've done on the lathe. Can you remind us what the first and second best were? I've been really considering this lathe as a replacement for a very old, very worn South Bend 9a
"What's the fun in that" You are absolutely right, it gives so much more to improve something you have, and to know that you did a better design than stock.
Also the learning in it is half the fun!
Well for me it's more about $$$
1) Stefan also said he wouldn't get a Deckel, sitting in front of his MB4 and 2 months later it was gone and he got a Deckel
2) bigger machines also have issues to solve.. so I don't see an end to "improve things"
@klaernie buy a Grizzly & you'll get to learn alot.
Awesome build! The ending felt abrupt. I guess was expecting a test run.
Tool suggestion for the lathe: make an over sized centre for your tail stock, they're handy when you want to enter up on a hole to be enlarged (push the oversized centre into the drilled/bored hole, then snug up the jaws in the 4 jaw, and you'll be pretty damn close to having your part cantered)
A live bell centre is probably more useful, but spendy.(cash to buy or time to make)
in this case... time to make = content, content = channel engagement, and hopefully some money from the big red play button guys... also makes it a work write-off ;D
@@konzetsu6068 I'm sure any creative accountant is writing off the whole home shop and the electric bill too. Hobby? What hobby?
@@MattOGormanSmith That's not creative. That's standard of care.
Just love seeing a person using their tools and knowledge to improve their tools to make nicer parts. Excellent.
Appreciate everything you do. I'm probably one of the few people that would actually pay to work for you for about a year to learn.
"where's the fun in that" -> the whole point of this kind of channel, and my involvement in the hobby. Thanks for the video, James!
As always, I truly enjoy each and every episode that you produce. I was surprised that two things seemed to be missing in this video. The first was a lack making and cuts with the new clamp in place. The second was a lack of a before and after tool deflection clip. I dial indicator pointing down on the tool as it entered a cut with each of the two clamps would have been, and still could be, a great way of characterizing the improvement that the new clamp offers. Thus justifying the effort used to make with more than the pure joy of creating. Please do not take this as a criticism. I really liked going along on the ride with this build. Keep up the great choices of topics to produce.
13:41 I love outside the box ways to use tools like this. I've used regular woodchuck router bits as form tools for aluminum in my lathe and it worked extremely well.
I don't own a Grizzly, but I have the exact same POS compound clamp. Good job on the clamp design, explanations and videos.
Watching this video just really shows how valuable a power draw bar is. I really need to get one I've been putting it off for far too long
They are ridiculously priced nowadays and all they are is an air ratchet on springs. They save a lot of time and I wouldn’t be without mine however if I had it to do over again I think I would have made both of them. There are real good videos on UA-cam on how to do it. Put that money towards a power drive for the knee on your mill which will cause you to really wonder how you got a long without something!
@@37yearsofanythingisenough39 I just ordered a power drawbar and power feed for my Y-axis right after posting the coment above. lol I could probably made one but I've put it off for soooo long that now I don't have time and I'm doing a lot of mill work. I totally agree that I need to put a power feed on the knee. That is a total pain in the arm to crank!
I really like the calm explanations of each operation revealing tips and good practice. Quietly informative like a technical machining course without being an obvious lecture. Very enjoyable to watch. Very envious of the kit you have to play with.
I have that same lathe and your channel has been so helpful in getting the most value out of a lathe i cant afford to replace.
Making your machines better makes you a better machinist.
Nice idea to use a threading bar to chamfer the backside of the hole in the lathe.
"where's the fun in that" I do agree that is one of the reasons i have been building my own equipment, i have my MILL at stage 1, 3 stages designed and currently working on the designs to build my lathe with of course the ELS that you designed. Love you channel. Thanks.
I want a newer/nicer lathe than my G0602 but then James keeps cranking out new videos with amazing add-ons.
I hope you read this sir. I took a snap shot of the design as you said and I made it. You know what? Great job sir that reduced the chatter problem so much very happy great job it works
I made something similar for my little JET lathe and my EMCO. And it works very well.
You might want to try AHCS in place of your studs, lower profile, and handy hex head to match your other lathe, fastners.
I literally have dozens of soft copper and aluminum bits for protecting machined surfaces, but usually end up using pennies from my pocket, (usually all I have in coinage), because I can't find them in the clutter!!!
Love your presentations.
Hope to see you again at the BAR Z Bash.
Tim
AHCS in place of studs would make it possible to have the top of the clamp flat, thus stronger, and simpler to make.
I am in the buy a better lathe group. You can't make a silk ear out of a sows purse. Wish I had done that myself. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
You can get the best lathe that money can buy, and you will still want to make modifications, alterations, accessories, improvements etc
The reenactment was very convincing!
Great video, camera work spot on really enjoyed watching the machining. Thanks for taking the time to produce
I want to thank you for designing that compound clamp I made one for my grizzly go602 it went from 5 thousand to all most zero thank you again
Cant wait to see the results, nice upgrade
the fun in buying a better lathe comes with all the new projects you'll be able to do. Your new lathe might have a copy atachment, automatic feed on x and y axis, a bigger spindle bore, and a longer bed. You'll be able to do poligon turning on your new lathe through a CV axis mounted to the feed screw on the tailstock end. A real engine lathe will do things you've only dreamt of. For example, i have a Sn321 lathe. There's a guy on youtube called B B machine shop (germany) with this lathe, you can find it by searching sn321 and going down the list a bit. You can see that this lathe has many more features than a chinese clone lathe. It has clutch on the feed screw for automatic disengagement if the feed force gets too high ----- helps when crashing in a shoulder. It has a 4th feed rod with cams, it has cables going to the compound for automatic disengangement. i'm not even sure what this is for to be honest, my lathe came with those cables cut and they look like electrical. Taper attachment. This thing is as semi-automatic as it gets before cnc. Might even have variable surface speed for facing. 3Kw Motor for a lathe that comes with 750mm between centers. Available in 1 and 1.5 meter centers but that's already like twice as big as g0602.
Exactly. NO FUN in just buying your way out of a problem. 👍
It'll do for now, but I'm looking forward to the full taper attachment :)
i've done the solid riser very similar to yours. i am definitely going to do this update as well. i have seen several variation of this on the different channels but i like this the best as you have maximized the beefiness here. love the channel 🙂
Half the joy of owning Grizzly products is the improvement of the baseline tool - my 4x6 horizontal bandsaw has, for example, embellishments such as flood coolant / lubrication, hydraulics, multiple table extensions and a proper hand wheel for the vise. Similarly, my drill press has been tuned up with an improved table lock / rigidity set up and quill depth DRO. The base value of most Grizzly products is superb; with design improvements such as the ones you have made, they really come into their own from a value perspective IMO.
I'm no safety nanny, but your hand was ridiculously close to that running fly cutter at 6:56 when applying cutting lube. Made me pucker up :-)
The video makes it look closer than it was.
"Why not just buy ..." James, I completely agree with "what's the fun in that?!"
A while back I was learning how to make a keyboard and someone suggested I just buy one. I've also had people suggest I just buy a newer version of Photoshop because I was writing my own image processing code to do something specific. Why *not* make your own tools if you know how to do so and have fun learning along the way?
Nice work yet again. We shared this video on our homemade tools forum this week 😎
I can see the day when I am going to need to do something similar. Thanks for the hints I will need.
My 0754 is currently disassembled for the solid toolpost riser mod. Looks like I’ll have to add this to the list.
Simple, but really well made. Thank you
Random thought and I expect you might be the guy to do it.
If you can do active sound canceling with speakers, you should be able to do active chatter canceling for a cutting bit.
Vibrameter on one end of the bit, driver on the other.
good work !
i cut new adjusting screw tips for the gibs.
they were cones. i made flats under an 30 degree angle to the axis.
better adjustable gib now !
try to press the compound slide by hand while cutting.
you will see the flex motion on the part.
i ll have to preload the slide against the force for turning the knob by hand.
Exactly James - that was fun
Yay! This is great thank you. Boy I’d love to see a copper handle on that thing.
Didn't know about the tariff on video cameras. Interesting.
I'm curious why you cut the viewing window before boring on the lathe. I would think avoiding an interrupted cut justifies splitting your mill functions.
Also, treat yourself to a Haimer gauge. Finding edges with a Haimer will be a breath of fresh air.
Thanks for the idea for my next lathe improvement project.
Did the exact same a while ago made a huge difference I used to put jacks to stop the tip lol oddly enough the mounting stud for the original setup sheared the very last time I used it
The compound slide was the first thing to go on mine. I like your upgrade and will likely do one myself.
If you already have invested a lot of time tooling up your machine and you don’t want to start again with a new lathe one thing that would improve yours substantially is scraping. When I took the King scraping class 3 guys brought in their compounds and 1 cross slide from the their grizzlies (not picking on grizz, all imports have similar issues) and when they blued them up on the surface plate the contact was awful. A few hours of scraping and there was an incredible improvement. I think the Chinese factories just slap ‘em together and there is no effort to get any kind of quality of fit. Also some have warped castings because they aren’t seasoned or stress relieved. The bonus is that to scrape you have to buy a bunch of new cool tools!
Yeah, I think the cross slide on mine would benefit greatly from this. Even grinding would improve it a lot.
Agreed! Where is the fun in that!? You have convinced me! I need to make a better clamp for my compound too. It's got way too much flex in it.
And thanks for providing the detail for my next project.
I am a great fan of 2 jaw keys for use with the 4 jaw chuck. They don't have to be as big as the main key, as you use them in tandem to reduce 4 jaw indicating time while still keeping some load to hold the part. Great idea for the better clamp for the top slide.
James -- Excellent Video -- Excellent Engineering -- Excellent Results . -- Jim
Another problem with these Chinese compounds is that the two parts of the dovetail impinge in the middle where there is not supposed to be any contact. This makes the upper part of the compound not contact on the intended mating surfaces. Thus it rocks under load.
There are several YT videos about how to fix that problem.
IIRC you mentioned it when you made your solid tool post mount, but Robin Renzetti has a solid tool post mount on his Hardinge HLV-H (and did a video on it). Those are $50,000-$100,000 lathes, the only ones capable of holding equal or better tolerances are the Monarch 10EE. And it's *still* a noticeable improvement to take the compound off and put on a solid tool post mount! "Just get a better lathe" doesn't change the fact that every extra joint reduces rigidity. Of course you're not working with ±0.00005" tolerance bands like Robin seems to do regularly, so you might not notice the rigidity loss on a better lathe, but you're a bit of a perfectionist so you'd end up with the solid mount anyway.
You can definitely feel the difference on a better lathe, I took the compounds off all my big lathes (20hp+) it's a weak point no matter how big and tough the lathe is.
Very nice new mount! thank you!
Great, informative video. Clever using the chamfer bit in the boring head.
Excellent content as always.
I don’t own this lathe but I’d bet real money that two (possibly larger) bolts (or studs and nuts) in the middle on each side of the clamp would be effectively as rigid as the six you have. I’m even more confident that the two middle nuts aren’t accomplishing much with all six tightened.
Do me a favor, and perform some tests with an indicator while gronking on the compound with two, three (two on the tailstock side), four, and six nuts tightened.
Might save you some annoyance when using the compound.
Diminishing returns.
James, I started working on my clamp this evening. My 11x26 G9972z compound matches your G0602 on all critical dimensions, just in case anyone was wondering. The compound itself is a few thousandths wider but that's not significant. Like you, I started with 3/4" hot rolled mild steel. The question is, is there a mechanical reason like stability to remove the mill finish from both sides or is it for the sense of craftsmanship? Asking because I need to develop a better shield to protect myself from hot chips and haven't yet. I don't have a fly cutter so I use an R-8 Indexable End Mill with TPG32 inserts, 2" diameter. It slings blue hot chips in every direction. For anyone concerned about the movement of the clamp seen at around 19:40, the clamp itself is not a precision piece. The close fit is maintained by the stub coming out of the compound seen during the assembly at 19:00. Even though it requires a considerable number of operations, it's a great teaching project and hitting the dimensions dead on is not critical. I ended up taking my 3/4" raw material to .650" with a 3/4" end mill. The surface finish isn't as nice as James's but I was putting function before form. I didn't care for the finish so I tool 2 of the 3 inserts out of a 2" insert end mill and took off a few thousandths more to make it look better.
After finishing the clamp and making a few pieces the difference is remarkable. The previous visible diving of the cutting tool is gone. Surface finish quality is better without any additional effort. It was 100% worth the time and effort to make the new clamp.
Surprised you didn't put another stepper on the lathe, this time on the back of the cross-slide and add some software to the ELS to do tapers. :)
Another fun improvement romp. 👍
A weak spot on small lathes is the compound gib. Two problems with it. First is the type of gib. A straight slab using three screws for adjustment. Three screws isn’t enough, it should be four, or more. That type of gib isn’t rigid. The reason is that the three screws project out of the top dovetail to engage the gib. That means that the gib doesn’t engage the dovetail on both sides just the bottom dovetail. This allows the gib to wiggle under high loads. Secondly, when the compound is at an extreme rear position, it loses one screw, effectively, allowing the gib to move sideways a bit. The tapered gibs are much better and were designed long ago to overcome this problem as the gib is always 100% engaged with both sides of the dovetail giving much more rigidity.
The second problem is for some reason that I’ve never understood, the compound gib is in the wrong side of the compound. My larger lathes all have the gib on the trailing side. The way this is, the pressure from the load is against that loosy goosey gib with the problems I mentioned, rather than against the solid side of the dovetail. This pressure tends to loosen the compound under pressure rather to tighten it which would be the case if the gib were designed and constructed properly.
I’ve spoken to a few others with this problem. I’ve also looked at a fair number of lathes and almost all use the tapered gib on the right side of the compound rather than the left side. It’s something to look into, but correcting it means a whole lot of work which might not be worthwhile. But could allow the compound to be rigid enough to be used for most, or all work.
Hey James, you could grind a trepanning tool for the boring head. Always quicker to do another operation in the mill while the part is still set up. (Unless you have to grind a tool…)! 😂. Nice project!
Another great project, well done, love your work
The original clamp also considerably warps the cross slide, making adjusting the gibs impossible. Having just a few thou of clearance will avoid most of that 'fun'. the best lathe is the one you already have in the shop, anything else is dreaming :-)
that, and the trashing of the t-slots when some gorilla hauls down hard on the nuts because they don't understand the limits of the machine
He mentioned clearance and so do you but I don’t understand what clearance you are referring to.
Exactly what was happening on my (very similar/not Chinese) lathe.
To clamp, the clamp needs clearance.
If it has clearance it will distort cross slide as you tighten the clamp...
Making clamp heavier/stronger solves little...
@@sblack48 there is a small (or in case of original large) amount of clearance between the bottom of the bracket Clough42 just made and the cross slide. This is what provides the movement to clamp the graduated dial. There are better designs but more difficult to adapt to this lathe style.
@@gerritvisser oh I get it - the clamp doesn’t actually touch the xslide. Gotcha thx
I have exactly the same lathe as yours and same issues. The cross slide flexes as well quite a lot. I ended up making another cross slide out of cast iron twice as thick and of course I lost some of the diameter I can machine now. I had to remake the compound base as well and kept the original moving part of the compound
Why on earth would you want to buy a “better” lathe when you can manufacture improvements to your own desires. 😁😁 Great video as usual. Thanks. Nice touch using a 3d model for proof of concept before committing time and material to the finished product.
I disagree that the original issue was because its a 2 bolt system - many high quality lathes (e.g. Monarch) only have 2 bolts. I'd like to see some tests on your new better clamp with and without the extra bolts to see if there is any measurable rigidity being added.
Yea, it’s irrelevant, as the tool post is pushing down.
You could have made the flange thicker if you used button head screws instead of nuts and washers. If you were worried about them coming loose, just use medium loctite.
I was just about to suggest exactly this.
Interesting, I didn't know about 'movie cameras'!
Nice fix!
As always great !
Good video, very interesting, thanks!
12:10 - hmm, I thought it was a _good thing_ if the chips picked up color, because it indicated that they were taking the heat away from the part?? Not so?
Light gold color is ideal. Blue or black chips indicate too much heat in the cut
@@ReactionTime344 interesting... I'll have to dive deeper into this someday. Today is not that day. :)
You would have a LOT more rigid set up if the complete base of compound was sitting on a flat surface.
Even with 6 screws holding things together it still relies on the diameter of the plate (72mm)
The torque applied by cutting forces is further from center and QCTP adds to the leverage available trying to tilt tool-post.
Making the mounting much thicker you could machine a taper into center pin and have an external screw (s) to pull things down (then rely on extra surface area to keep things straight)
It seems to work pretty well on Myford lathes (I don't have one and have never used one but have seen what's going on underneath compound)
I still need to do this mod to mine, just haven’t decided on a design yet. I’m thinking a better class of spindle bearings would be a great improvement as well.
@tmurray1972, I thought the same thing about my G9972z. Two things changed my mind. One, I took the compound off and cleaned all of the chips from underneath. Two, I got some better (name brand) inserts and started machining better quality metals. I'm using ISCAR DCMT070204/DCMT21.51 inserts with an IC907 coating now and can remove half a thou at will. I got them new in the factory sealed packages on Marketplace at a great price and they're amazing. Unlike most carbide, they give a great finish at lower rpm than most and do well when making shallow cuts, ideal for our smaller lathes.
Solid tool post and make a taper attachment
aww, I wanted to see this parting some steel stock
A two axis ELS would seem like the obvious way to solve this problem. They work really well and are much easier and cut straighter than any compound slide.
Maybe, but only when traveling in a direction that feeds against the workpiece so the cross slide screw is compressed in the correct direction.
@@Clough42 I did run ball screws but even with trapezoidal screws backlash is easily managed. A properly designed lathe doesn't hurt but I could make a POS emco cut just fine. (With a solid tool post)
Whats the difference in diameter on the hole in your cross slide and the pin in your compund? i would have thought that was supposed to be a tighter fit to prevent tilting under tool load from your cutters. i liked this video. good job
Hey, I also have a G0602 and something that’s always bugged me is the studs with nuts instead of just using a bolt. Can you explain the reasoning for using the studs and nuts on this project like what grizzly did, instead of simplifying it to 6 bolts?
Studs let you get full thread engagement without making a custom bolt. Only reason I can think of
Using bolts will strip the cast iron threads
More beefy doesn't mean better - the main issue of such clamps for compound slide is an unavoidable distortion of components - both the clamp and the cross slide. By making the clamp more beefy, You just shifted the weakness point from the old weak clamp towards the cross slide.
Correct. If you gronk down on it, the cross slide distorts as much as you want. Ideally, the clamping system would bottom two flat surfaces against one another, avoiding this distortion.
Exactly, something like S.Gotteswinter did on his old "uDreh"-lathe! @@Clough42
Nice job sir 👍
I've been thinking of this instead of a solid toolpost. And even tried looking for a compound off a big boy lathe to lash up onto mine. Interested to see how you find it after some use.
So far, it's a massive improvement. The clamp can distort the cross slide, so you have to be careful, but it's really good.
Id like to see some rigidity comparisons. Solid tool post is way better than the stock compound but how much better is it than the new compound?
This is comedy gold! 😂 Fantastic!
Good improvement. I agree, you need a better lathe.
Most excellent.
Buy a better lathe and Enjoy doing it .... Thanks for sharing ... Stay safe and well....
Great video. May try that on mg lathe..
Wondering why you decided to enlarge the center hole on the lathe instead of using the mill boring tool after you cut the initial hole?
Another good one
Belfanti machine works makes a kit almost identical to your design. It’s been out for a few years now. Been looking at getting one for my G0602
Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. It's a fairly obvious design.
Nice work, that's a worthwhile improvement. I have essentially the same lathe and the OEM compound locking arrangement is woeful in terms of rigidity. Will you be leaving the new clamp in the white or applying a surface treatment as a means of corrosion protection, such as bluing or nickel plating?
Did it matter what the rotational orientation of the countersink's cutting edges were relative to the 'slide' of the boring head?
Why spot the centre hole and then annular cut it? See as i have; centre drill and then set up in the lathe with a centre between it and the tail stock and you can better align it
That would also work. Though my mil has a lot more power and torque to run the cutter.
@Clough42 Could you tell us where you bought the studs or post a link please? Thank you for sharing and please congratulate the boss lady for us on her fitness progress.
even if you bought a "better" lathe, its going to have a different set of "issues"
Or... you could put an ELS on the cross slide and do a 2 axis controller with a taper program. You could simulate the compound by having a mode where the cross slide motor is freewheeling (if your servo has the option) but the carriage lead screw is slaved to the encoder on the cross slide, so you can manually feed with the cross slide handle.
I guessing you're resisting making a full cnc controller with a screen, but even 2 axis opens up so many possibilities it'd probably be time to add a screen You could do multi-pass threading and ball turning without gcode but there'd be too many parameters to show on a sensible panel of 7 segment LED
On second thoughts, better to slave the cross slide to the carriage handle, or you'd get pilot induced oscillation. It'd also work more like a traditional taper attachment.
Cool video, what lathe would you upgrade to from this one? (Love the last part of the video, hehe.)
It's a big jump, but I'd enjoy a Hardinge HLV-H.
Don't suppose your lathe supports a taper turning attachment on the back? My old Hardinge does and I adapted a different brand attachment to fit. Still loads of fun to be had with a "better lathe" there is always something new to modify. If you have never used one could you do a video on trying one out somewhere? Is that even possible?
I want to make one. The challenge is space for the screw disconnect.
Would you recommend this model in its stock form? Obviously the mods are great just wondering on the stock performance.
just wondering. why not bore the hole with the bore head in the mill since it was already setup and centered from the angular cutter? apologize if this is answered by the end of the video.
The hole could be easily bored, but there's a shoulder that needs a flat bottom for clamping, and that's hard to do with a standard boring head. Maybe I need to get a boring/facing head. :)
Hi why don't you put a swcond stepper motor for the y axis ? Taper will be easy and a new great project😅
That clamp has to be the worst piece of the entire lathe. I'm dismayed by how much it flexes when heavily (or moderately) loaded. Mine is very similar; the 11x26 G9972Z and most of the upgrades you've made are directly applicable to the 11x26. Thanks again for another great idea!
AWESOME !
You said the solid toolpost was the 3rd best upgrade you've done on the lathe. Can you remind us what the first and second best were? I've been really considering this lathe as a replacement for a very old, very worn South Bend 9a
The ELS and the 3-phase motor and VFD.