Now that the lathe has a DRO, why not give the electronic lead screw a "stop at position" function? There's a good chance your DRO has some kind of serial communication that could be used to get position data.
AG60 inserts are partial profile, not full. Full profile inserts have a flat next to the tooth that skims the top of the thread. I don't know why manufacturers put the second point on the partial profile inserts; it's certainly annoying. On the other hand, I have full profile inserts for every thread I make routinely, so I don't really care all that much. 😁
Thanks! That was my misunderstanding, apparently. I do see some AG60 inserts advertised as "full profile" but they're on dubious sites, like Aliexpress. The ISCAR catalog indicates clearly that AG60 indicates partial profile. (edit: capitalized ISCAR)
I got the silly visual of mounting the chuck to a tire rim and going down to the tire shop to use the wheel balancer. (too much coffee I guess) He'll probably spin it between centers, and yes it will be fun to watch him do it.
Using a vacuum cleaner can catch those cast iron chips. You might consider making an attachment to use a vacuum to pull chips through the spindle to prevent build up when boring or creating inside threads.
Came to say the same thing. If you have a spare Noga style arm and magbase (The knock-offs are perfectly good for this) you can mount a vacuum nozzle either to catch from the front or, as Tired old mechanic said, at the back and drawing through the spindle bore - the VacuuLathe :D
An old time toolmaker here. STOP using copper/brass in your chuck/vice jaws. Use aluminum -- it's got a built-in coating of ALU Oxide, for greater grip . (Burn off the coatings, from pop cans)😎👍
Drill a pair of holes 1/2" diameter x 1" deep in the outer edge of the backing plate. If you have the chuck off and you still need to unthread the backing plate you'll thank yourself.
stupid question.. Why do you have to disengage the half nut? Couldn't the electronic lead screw automatically stop the stepper/servo at the right point?
Potentially. Rewinding and resynchronizing for the next pass can be pretty complicated, depending on the situation and would also make the project more complicated, hence less accessible.
How do the screws holding the chuck to the backplate affect the adjustment? Do you have to loosen them to let the chuck float? If not, would a dab of moly under the heads (and also maybe between the chuck and backplate) make the adjustment less sticky?
I've been lusting after one of those 6 jaw chucks for years, but my tooling budget doesn't line up with the sticker price on that thing of beauty.....🤣🤣
Could the electronic lead screw be programmed to automatically stop at a certain location when threading? Maybe disengage the nut for safety, but have it stop just in case you miss the mark.
I had the same thought. It might be difficult to make an absolute stop since the lead screw engagement point is variable, but a relative stop should be possible. Maybe as simple as X turns after a button press that indicates “first contact”. Not super accurate yet still relieving the pucker factor!
@@andreyv3609 You would either need to reverse the lathe spindle or have control over the cross-slide to pull the tool out. Reversing the lathe spindle could possibly work well on some machines and you wouldn't need to make any changes to the electronic lead screw.
@@yngndrw. He has electronic screw. It is attached to a separate motor that can be programmed to work in the opposite direction relative to the spindle
While I’m loving you more and more my wife is headed the other direction 🤣 So many great projects to come on my G0602! Thanks again for great content and instructions
If I have to machine a lot of CI, I use an inverted tool with the lathe in reverse (or with the tool on the back of the part running forwards) so any spray of powder at least goes downwards instead of into my teeth. For fine cuts I use a cheap polished carbide aluminium insert which seems to make less annoying chips in CI/SG, (also brass and bronze) instead of powder. OK, they wear out fast, and inverting the tool means a bit of messing about, but my teeth thank me every time.
I wonder if anyone's done an actual study on cast iron vs steel backplates. Given the spindle is usually high tensile steel, how much will the material difference affect finish on small bench lathes ?
How would running in reverse work with this spindle being threaded? I would be fearful that the chuck/ mounting plate/ work piece would come off the spindle, but I have very little experience with home machining.
@@r2db Lathes with camlock or taper nose and key chuck mounts are fine for use in reverse but those with threaded chuck mounts are generally not. James mentioned that he has a Cunning Plan to handle that problem. Sounds interesting. My old lathe has a D1-4 camlock so it's fine in reverse. Also means I can use a rear toolpost for parting off without inverting the parting tool. Threading in reverse is much less stressful but the gutter groove is mandatory for the thread start. Cutting towards the chuck means you can pull out from the cut and leave a tapered entry. Takes lots of skill and timing unless you have auto-retract. I'm rubbish at getting it timed right so I stick to the easy way, with a gutter and running in reverse. Also need to consider tool rake/relief angles when threading in reverse. All enormous fun though.
My lathe also has a screw-on chuck with 1 3/4 - 8 thread. The chucks that came with the lathe have a locking tab, that I see your spindle has provision for. To make a long story short, I operated my lathe without the locking tabs (as you're doing in this video). When I shut off the lathe, the drivetrain stopped well before the chuck as it unscrewed itself from the spindle, crashed onto the ways, then the floor, and then through a wall. My machine is standard AC drive. I think the 'ramp' function on your variable speed is the only thing that's saving you.
If your chuck unscrewed, something went wrong. There are many people with older lathes and they all say that a screwed spindle nose will hold on, even if you cut while running in reverse. My lathe, for example, I only ever tried 1-2mm cuts in steel in reverse because I'm scared, but it hold on just fine.
@@an2thea514 If you're cutting in reverse with a threaded chuck and no locks, please make sure you keep a camera running. We all want to see it when your luck runs out.
@@Clough42 I don't need to, you can literally try it yourself. I have access to one last threaded Lathe at work, my threaded Lathe and my Wood Lathes. As for Wood Lathes, I don't cut in reverse because I don't have reverse, but I have a Brake that I use pretty agressively and nothing happened yet. (For note, my boss brakes from 6000 to about 30 RPS on our Wood Shaper which I don't do and the Spindle doesn't unthread either but that's a different type of machine, so make of that what you will). My own lathe, well, since it has plain bearings I don't turn over ~300 RPM, but that's whatever. Biggest I do in reverse is cut tapers. 1-1.5mm DoC while fed with hand. Spindle is 2 1/4x5. As for the work lathe, my senior, the boss' dad has been in this shop since 1962 and that lathe is there since 1968. He is honest, makes sure every chuck is on tight and in his words, there have been no accidents because if that. And you know how much company lathes get abused. When we change chucks, the prybar is longer than me. Spindle is M105x7(or 6, whatever Voest used) Quinn likes to talk about how the old masters were so smart and such, but don't you think, if old manuals told you the chuck doesn't come off, if older lathe users in the forum say the chuck doesn't come off, that the chuck maybe really doesn't come off.
Just been thinking about how to balance this perfectly, so you already got the accurate spindle position, all you need to do is add an accelerometer input into your lead screw software and then you will know exactly where the imbalance is 🤔
The thing for cast-iron is a shop vacuum. I mount the nozzle near the tool for facing and external and mount it at the left end of the spindle for internal cuts so it sucks through the chuck and spindle.
I thought about pulling through the spindle with a vacuum, but opted not to, just because I didn't want to draw all that junk though, where it will stick in the oil and be there forever. It was a lot easier to just let it fall and then vacuum it up, and wipe everything down as soon as I was done.
Nice video, I always enjoy yours. I just got the 8" 6 jaw set true and the D1-4 backing plate. Checking and then removing a 1 inch precision ground dowl repeated exactly with a .0001 indicator. It is not a Bison for sure but it is way less money than I paid for my Bision 6 jaw.
I absolutely love my 6 jaw (Buck) but the set-true bit is incredibly annoying to get dialed in. Dial it in... tighten the chuck to the backplate... oops it moved. Unless I'm cutting thin pipe I'd rather have a quality 3 jaw.
I am curious about the pros and cons of cold bluing vs. nickel plating for wear and rust resistance. I was thinking about backing plates and tool holders in particular. Of course, it goes without saying, but I will say it anyway, I love your content and the superb production quality of your videos.
9:50 surely you have 2 dial indicators that you could use at the same time, no? I'm no machinist, but it seems like a torque wrench at 23:56 would be ideal so that you get repeatable results. Not to mention, without knowing the error in the unknown bar you're using, that could account for the runout when moving the bar around.
I've seen this video of James pup-up several times in UA-cam and wandered what to buy for more accuracy: 6-Jaw Chuck or a 5c-collet. I've seen this whole video and couldn't find the answer other than the big smile at the beginning 🙂 Is it a one-or-the-other situation that the 6-Jaw Chuck is an easy replacement for the 5c-collet with almost the same accuracy?
I’m not sure exactly how you set it. The way it’s done is to snug the mounting screws, but not too tightly. Then work on the four screws until you get it to where you’re satisfied. And then, tighten the mounting screws down tightly, to whatever torque the manufacturer says. Often, your adjustment will move a small amount, and you might want to back the mounting screws off slightly, and readjust. It’s iterative. If you’re lucky, you’ll get it the first time, but often, you need to touch it up once. What I’ve found is that a good quality chuck will hold the setting for about one third to three times the diameter of the pin you’ve set it with, to 0.0002” of your initial adjustment, which is good enough. You can get these chucks easily to 0.0003” with a little care and even to below that if you have a known accurate pin. I use a 1” x 4” high precision carbide pin. In my 8” Buck. The pin is ground to +- 0.00005”, so good enough to measure to +-0.0002”. When using the pin, make sure it’s long enough to extend down the entire depth of the contacting jaws.
This is when the automatic threading start and stop funtion would be nice no worrys about stopping the threading The CLOUGH42 ELS would take care of that
How about hardness on the jaws? I was on the fence about picking up a 6 jaw for years. I didn't want to spend $700 years ago on a 6" Bison as I have a Burnerd Collet chuck that always repeats but having to turn the chuck key on that thing will wear you out. Now the 6" Bisons are $1600+ since the pandemic and the other options such as Gator aren't far behind. I bought a Clausing last year with a 2-3/4" - 8 spindle nose and wanted a good chuck for it but just didn't feel comfortable pulling the trigger on the Shars or other Chicom 6 jaws so I scoured eBay for months looking for a used Bison or Buck that was actually in good condition. A seller listed a newer 6" Buck with solid smooth jaws that looked almost new for $399 plus shipping and I snatched it up the second I seen it. As with most things in life, If its too good to be true, it probably is because when I twisted the scroll, it was gritty and stiff and wouldn't slide all the way through the range. Popping the two halves of the body apart, the inside wasn't shiny like the outside and it was apparent that the chuck had spent its life turning graphite or carbon fiber and a mixture of that dust, grease, and probably a water based coolant had hardened inside the scroll and gears and that caused binding and repeating issues. I did manage to clean everything out and get it working and still use it today but there are some things that do bother me about a 6 jaw. I view them as a 3 jaw with 3 "Secondary" jaws as you will get the exact same performance from a set-tru 3 jaw. A 6 jaw will shine when your grabbing thin walled parts that deform easily as the 3 extra jaws will also support the workpiece when they start to deform outwards between the 3 main jaws, but check with your hardened pin and see if your getting clamping pressure equally on all 6 jaws. With every 6 jaws that I've used, you will notice that when clamping a solid part that is perfectly round, you can actually wiggle 3 of the jaws unless you really crank down on the material to the point where the first 3 jaws are flexing or digging in enough to engage the other 3. They will repeat accurately on identical diameters but if you have a set of parts that vary by a couple thou, you will be constantly turning those adjustment screws between parts to dial things back in. My buck seems to naturally run out 0.003" when jumping diameters. I know 6 Jaws have developed a rep among a lot of Hobby machinist that they are the pinnacle of precision scroll chucks once they are dialed in and I feel like that is part of the reasoning people desire them over cheaper 3 jaw Set-tru chucks.
My use-case for a six-jaw was with thin-walled parts, but softjaws on my old Pratt Burnerd 8 inch 3 jaw work so well that I can find a better use for the £2000+ cost of a Bison.
@@MachiningandMicrowaves I think its easy to view the 6 jaws as some kind of perfect chuck because of their stiff price tag, especially when you just don't know.
Great video James! Question: you were complaining about flexibility due to stick out when boring the counterbore, but it looked like you didn't need as much stickout as you had to get to the bottom of the bore. Couldn't you have adjusted the tool?
I wonder if I could drill and tap adjustments screws in my non- adjustable 3 jaw chuck never really thought about it I'll look at it when the when this cold front moves thru -3 is to cold
0:02 I do not understand why you guys refer such important tools as just "toys". Clearly they are not toys, they are tools that gets work done and people all over world use this tools to earn a livelihood & they clearly deserve a lot of respect to be just referred as a "toy" in the beginning of this video.
Thanks for the well filmed and edited interesting video. I did the similar work adapting a 5# 3 jaw onto a 4# mini lathe. The adapter plate came from LMS and fit perfectly to both the chuck and the head stock, without any cuts! Using Randys knocker when tightening the bolts a run out of 1 thou was achieved. Not bad at all. However, the plate moves all the work some 1" away from the head stock and chatter happens more easily.
Very cool. I was a little worried about stickout, but because of the way the back plate is constructed, it ends up being exactly the same length as the stock 4-jaw.
22:47 did you retighten the bolt hole pattern bolts before testing for repeatability? Or are you to adjust the 4 adjust tru bolts while the front bolts are holding the chuck to the plate tightly
The expensive precision highly trusted dial indicator says its only running out by half a though so Ill wind it up to 2500 RPM & check it with my mk1 eyeball - yep, that looks ok. CLASIC James. Balancing it will be fun. 1 go fully assembled or 3 steps - remove backing plate & balance it. Balance the chuck. Assemble & balance the combination? This will be interesting. Good luck & thanks.
Not sure I want to try taking material off the chuck itself. Taking it off the backing plate is easier, though it means it'll be a static balance and not a dynamic one. Worth a try to see what we get, though.
Ha! And I just bought a Bison Set-Tru 5C collet chuck. Thinking about getting their 6 jaw. I didn't want to wait for Precision Mathews to restock their Set-tru's.
My much cheaper chuck was badly out of balance. First I indicated in the O.D. of the chuck. That fixed the out-of-balance, but then I needed to do an internal skim cut on the jaws with an internal stone tool post grinder.
Great video. I found that it's important to use the same screw to tighten with every time. My Toolmex 6 jaw has a 0 mark on one of the chuck screws, so it's easy to make sure you use the same screw every time.
I agree with person Chris and I use to watch your channel. Personally I'm past my career. I'm not interested in digital/analog, PLC stuff. On and on... Not trying to be rude, as he said, the scope is now different.
The great news is there are lots of other channels with content you might like better. Some of them don't disclose their business relationships, so that should make it easier for you.
I plan to try to implement a carriage stop feature in the ELS so that I can set a stop point and, as long as I don't disconnect the lead screw, it will not go past that point towards the chuck. It'll still keep track of the spindle, but won't let the lead screw turn past my stop point. When I then reverse the spindle, the ELS will activate the lead screw when I pass the stop point in reverse, and drag the carriage back (it could be optimised too, to save some revolutions, but that comes later). Since I live in the metric world but my lathe has an imperial lead screw and while threading I kinda have to keep the half nut engaged all the time anyway, so it wouldn't add any inconvenience for me. On the contrary, as my lathe is set up now, without a brake, I can't thread up to a shoulder or even into a reasonably sized gutter. The electronic stop would fix that. Still haven't mounted my ELS, time in the shop has been scarce, but I plan to at some point.
I just realized that I can't be the first one to think of that, checked the pull requests on the repo and, as I suspected, someone else already implemented that feature. Perfect!
You know, if you back off the cross slide at the same time you disengage the half nuts, you don’t have so much trouble with the full form tool cutting the threads or digging in if you disengage early… Or you could do like those crazy Europeans and leave the half nuts engaged the whole time, stopping the machine and reversing it for each pass.
Isnt the point of being a machinist is being able to cut a thread to spec, knowing it will fit ? Making the dummy thread introduces more error, right? IDK . Any thoughts ?
Two issues: 1) I have no way to measure the pitch diameter of an inside thread, and 2) I'm trying to match the spindle, not any specific thread specification.
I recently bought a very similar looking import 6jaw by zentra. Might be from the same factory? definitely take it apart and deburr everythjng and clean out the grinding dust if you have not done so by now ✌️mine was really filthy on the inside. I really love watching your videos and learn something every time.
Your lathe has: * A digitally controlled lead screw * A digitally controlled VFD that controls speed * A DRO, providing position data If you stick a servo on your cross slide, I think you could make your lathe CNC
When you have to remove your way guide cover you can use a shop paper towel (the blue ones in a box) that’s been wetted with way oil so it will stick to the ways and not get picked up by the speed of those jaws whipping by.
Old engineers' expression ... "If you can't guarantee 100% accuracy &/or precision 100% of the time ... Make it adjustable! 🤔😁 Definitely applies to electronics too (my primary field). NICE unit! Great video as always!
Great video. I have the Shars 10” D1-6 3 jaw zero set Chuck. Very happy with it. Repeatable to .0005 and often times to .0001 - .0002. Very good Chuck. Even got it on sale 20 % off.
When I setup a new 6-jaw adjustable , I’ll get the body of it to run true first, then see what the factory runout is. You may need to machine the jaws first with ceramic or cbn. Also, if it’s overseas equip. Good idea to disassemble and clean - check torques back plate. Cheers
I know it's a bit late now but there was a missed opportunity there to make a spindle nose replica on a MT shaft. You could have used it as your plug gauge but then also used it to mount your lathe chuck in other machines or parts of machines such as your tailstock. I use mine quite a lot like this.
@@Clough42 You could make such an arbour, but I use mine stationary for workholding. Opens up new options for things you can't spin in the lathe. Less useful maybe if you have a mill as you do. (I don't).
I have always wanted a good 6 jaw scroll chuck as well. I have thrown too many parts out of the 3 jaw, and stopped using them for any heavier work or cuts as they just don't hold as well. I have never thrown one from a 4 jaw, and 6 would fix the problem that the 3 jaw has. I usually try to cut the threads running in reverse and upside-down You have to be right on engaging the dial, but there is no risk of crashing the machine.
I'm not nearly as worried about it as many people on the Internet seem to be. I'm pretty lazy, and I'd have to turn around to pick up a piece of wood. If I didn't feel secure palming a 30lb chuck, I might feel differently.
This is a little off topic but I noticed that you use a 2L coke bottle for coolant on you CNC mill. I don’t drink coke, I prefer cranberry juice, so I am using a cranberry juice container for my coolant reservoir. It’s a great idea!
Not sure if you tightened the 6 facing bolts on the set true. I got the 10 inch 3 jaw gator set true chuck, and I lightly oiled the contact area where the chuck meets the backing plate so there was no binding and snugged the facing bolts and then spent a good half hour dialing it in and I got dead nuts zero on a starret indicator and I then tightened the facing bolts up and re checked and still dead nuts on 0. I've had perfect repeatability every time. Set true chucks cost more but in the end they are so worth it.
Oh no. Looks like I'm gonna have to add another chuck to my collection. I also purchased the 5c collet chuck for my PM1127 after watching your video and seeing how well it performed for such an affordable price.
Just a random question regarding those chips, would an appropriately placed strong magnet (in a plastic container with a washer on the outside to keep it place) be a viable trick/method to catch some of the chips rather than have them fly everywhere? ( know it wouldn't work for non-ferrous materials... but...?
I used one about this size on Stan Zinkosky's Logan lathe and really enjoyed it. I think his doesn't have removable jaw caps, so it's a little more compact.
Mark the position of backing to the chuck by a center point mark. Then you always know mount it at the same point, specially when you want to do balancing by removing som material of the backing plate.
What do you think about using a vacuum hose to suck up the abrasive dust while machining cast iron? I don't do cast very often, so my shop vac noise is tolerable. On exactly one occasion I was paranoid enough to run the shop vac exhaust in the back of the spindle bore as well. I dunno if it helped all that much, but it made me feel like I was doing as much as I could reasonably do to keep the dust out of my collets.
So I was inspired to finish machining a back plate like yours from Shars. I found the Achilles heal of the ELS. My lead screw motor kept pooping out threading those deep, course threads. I think I’m ready to update the motor as you have. Do you know if there is any arduino code I need to fiddle with? I apologize, that stuff is way above my comfort zone. Thanks James!
@@Clough42 let me put it this way…I’m buying the same exact motor that you did. Did you have to change steps? I don’t want to stray from my shop being exactly like yours and all. On that note, do you do anything to clean your Rancilio Rocky espresso grinder? I know, off topic…
@@seanwolfe9321 I'm sure I adjusted the steps per revolution, but I don't remember exactly how it's configured, to be honest. Whatever you see in the videos is probably still the way it's set up.
I have been told that 6 jaws loose their accuracy after heating up causing them to get loose at high rpms. yours being new would be a good one to verify this on.
James, here's an experiment I've always wanted to do: test repeatability on all three scroll pinions. I've always thought that the inevitable tiny bit of runout on the scroll itself could shove the whole clamp system a few tenths one way or another, depending on which pinion you stick the chuck key into last...
@@Clough42 And you even said that! D'oh! What got me started on this was thinking about repeatability on 3-jaw chucks, actually. I always wondered if you could mark a part's position, remove it and re-chuck it, using the same pinion, and get better centering...
@@d00dEEE Most multi-pinion chucks have one that's marked with an O that's the "master" pinion, which was tightened last when the jaws were ground at the factory. Tighten that one last for best repeatability.
Now that the lathe has a DRO, why not give the electronic lead screw a "stop at position" function? There's a good chance your DRO has some kind of serial communication that could be used to get position data.
Exactly what I have been thinking 💯
Also automatically vary the spindle speed control based on the position of the cross slide and cutting speed
Thank you James. I have been holding off on a 6 jaw for my lathe. But now after I see the quality, I feel like Shars is the way to go!!
AG60 inserts are partial profile, not full. Full profile inserts have a flat next to the tooth that skims the top of the thread. I don't know why manufacturers put the second point on the partial profile inserts; it's certainly annoying.
On the other hand, I have full profile inserts for every thread I make routinely, so I don't really care all that much. 😁
Thanks! That was my misunderstanding, apparently. I do see some AG60 inserts advertised as "full profile" but they're on dubious sites, like Aliexpress. The ISCAR catalog indicates clearly that AG60 indicates partial profile. (edit: capitalized ISCAR)
Fantastic upgrade James.
That smile at the beginning tells it all.
Some type of dynamic balancing of the chuck would be interesting to watch
I got the silly visual of mounting the chuck to a tire rim and going down to the tire shop to use the wheel balancer. (too much coffee I guess)
He'll probably spin it between centers, and yes it will be fun to watch him do it.
Using a vacuum cleaner can catch those cast iron chips. You might consider making an attachment to use a vacuum to pull chips through the spindle to prevent build up when boring or creating inside threads.
Or to blow dust through the head stock
@@Grosmeo Blow it all over the shop😆
Came to say the same thing. If you have a spare Noga style arm and magbase (The knock-offs are perfectly good for this) you can mount a vacuum nozzle either to catch from the front or, as Tired old mechanic said, at the back and drawing through the spindle bore - the VacuuLathe :D
That... opening "Shars smile" is just... priceless 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Looks like a decent unit. Checking for balance can be as simple as clamping the chuck down on a precision shaft between centers.
Cheers
Yeah. I'm planning something like that.
An old time toolmaker here.
STOP using copper/brass in your chuck/vice jaws.
Use aluminum -- it's got a built-in coating of ALU Oxide, for greater grip . (Burn off the coatings, from pop cans)😎👍
Drill a pair of holes 1/2" diameter x 1" deep in the outer edge of the backing plate. If you have the chuck off and you still need to unthread the backing plate you'll thank yourself.
stupid question.. Why do you have to disengage the half nut? Couldn't the electronic lead screw automatically stop the stepper/servo at the right point?
Potentially. Rewinding and resynchronizing for the next pass can be pretty complicated, depending on the situation and would also make the project more complicated, hence less accessible.
How do the screws holding the chuck to the backplate affect the adjustment? Do you have to loosen them to let the chuck float? If not, would a dab of moly under the heads (and also maybe between the chuck and backplate) make the adjustment less sticky?
I've been lusting after one of those 6 jaw chucks for years, but my tooling budget doesn't line up with the sticker price on that thing of beauty.....🤣🤣
Could the electronic lead screw be programmed to automatically stop at a certain location when threading? Maybe disengage the nut for safety, but have it stop just in case you miss the mark.
I had the same thought. It might be difficult to make an absolute stop since the lead screw engagement point is variable, but a relative stop should be possible. Maybe as simple as X turns after a button press that indicates “first contact”. Not super accurate yet still relieving the pucker factor!
I was also thinking the same, possibly as simple as an adjustable microswitch at the end of the travel which just stops the leadscrew.
I'll do one better.. why would not just rotate the lead screw in opposite direction?
@@andreyv3609 You would either need to reverse the lathe spindle or have control over the cross-slide to pull the tool out. Reversing the lathe spindle could possibly work well on some machines and you wouldn't need to make any changes to the electronic lead screw.
@@yngndrw. He has electronic screw. It is attached to a separate motor that can be programmed to work in the opposite direction relative to the spindle
For way covers when clearance is very tight…
turn to the Handyman's Secret Weapon, duct tape.
The beauty of a six jaw is you don't have to clamp the work as tight as a normal 3 jaw. At least that's the understanding I have. Nice job.
To quote Blondihacks "As is tradition"🤣
Is that something else she copies from Joe Pie?😋
While I’m loving you more and more my wife is headed the other direction 🤣 So many great projects to come on my G0602! Thanks again for great content and instructions
If I have to machine a lot of CI, I use an inverted tool with the lathe in reverse (or with the tool on the back of the part running forwards) so any spray of powder at least goes downwards instead of into my teeth. For fine cuts I use a cheap polished carbide aluminium insert which seems to make less annoying chips in CI/SG, (also brass and bronze) instead of powder. OK, they wear out fast, and inverting the tool means a bit of messing about, but my teeth thank me every time.
I wonder if anyone's done an actual study on cast iron vs steel backplates. Given the spindle is usually high tensile steel, how much will the material difference affect finish on small bench lathes ?
How would running in reverse work with this spindle being threaded? I would be fearful that the chuck/ mounting plate/ work piece would come off the spindle, but I have very little experience with home machining.
@@r2db Lathes with camlock or taper nose and key chuck mounts are fine for use in reverse but those with threaded chuck mounts are generally not. James mentioned that he has a Cunning Plan to handle that problem. Sounds interesting. My old lathe has a D1-4 camlock so it's fine in reverse. Also means I can use a rear toolpost for parting off without inverting the parting tool. Threading in reverse is much less stressful but the gutter groove is mandatory for the thread start. Cutting towards the chuck means you can pull out from the cut and leave a tapered entry. Takes lots of skill and timing unless you have auto-retract. I'm rubbish at getting it timed right so I stick to the easy way, with a gutter and running in reverse. Also need to consider tool rake/relief angles when threading in reverse. All enormous fun though.
I enjoy your channel a lot! Your subtle humor is just right in my opinion 😄 keep the videos going sir 👍🏻
My lathe also has a screw-on chuck with 1 3/4 - 8 thread. The chucks that came with the lathe have a locking tab, that I see your spindle has provision for. To make a long story short, I operated my lathe without the locking tabs (as you're doing in this video). When I shut off the lathe, the drivetrain stopped well before the chuck as it unscrewed itself from the spindle, crashed onto the ways, then the floor, and then through a wall. My machine is standard AC drive. I think the 'ramp' function on your variable speed is the only thing that's saving you.
I use the locks when I have them. There's not a lot of room on this plate, but I'm planning to figure out something.
If your chuck unscrewed, something went wrong.
There are many people with older lathes and they all say that a screwed spindle nose will hold on, even if you cut while running in reverse.
My lathe, for example, I only ever tried 1-2mm cuts in steel in reverse because I'm scared, but it hold on just fine.
@@an2thea514 If you're cutting in reverse with a threaded chuck and no locks, please make sure you keep a camera running. We all want to see it when your luck runs out.
@@Clough42 I don't need to, you can literally try it yourself.
I have access to one last threaded Lathe at work, my threaded Lathe and my Wood Lathes.
As for Wood Lathes, I don't cut in reverse because I don't have reverse, but I have a Brake that I use pretty agressively and nothing happened yet. (For note, my boss brakes from 6000 to about 30 RPS on our Wood Shaper which I don't do and the Spindle doesn't unthread either but that's a different type of machine, so make of that what you will).
My own lathe, well, since it has plain bearings I don't turn over ~300 RPM, but that's whatever. Biggest I do in reverse is cut tapers. 1-1.5mm DoC while fed with hand. Spindle is 2 1/4x5.
As for the work lathe, my senior, the boss' dad has been in this shop since 1962 and that lathe is there since 1968. He is honest, makes sure every chuck is on tight and in his words, there have been no accidents because if that. And you know how much company lathes get abused. When we change chucks, the prybar is longer than me. Spindle is M105x7(or 6, whatever Voest used)
Quinn likes to talk about how the old masters were so smart and such, but don't you think, if old manuals told you the chuck doesn't come off, if older lathe users in the forum say the chuck doesn't come off, that the chuck maybe really doesn't come off.
Fantastic job! By weird coincidence I bored and rethreaded a backplate the other day for a new 4 jaw - glad to see I was on the right track :)
Just been thinking about how to balance this perfectly, so you already got the accurate spindle position, all you need to do is add an accelerometer input into your lead screw software and then you will know exactly where the imbalance is 🤔
On the leadscrew or the chuck?
The thing for cast-iron is a shop vacuum. I mount the nozzle near the tool for facing and external and mount it at the left end of the spindle for internal cuts so it sucks through the chuck and spindle.
I thought about pulling through the spindle with a vacuum, but opted not to, just because I didn't want to draw all that junk though, where it will stick in the oil and be there forever. It was a lot easier to just let it fall and then vacuum it up, and wipe everything down as soon as I was done.
Why in the world wouldn't you refuse to shill for Shars and buy something unaffiliated? Like a Rohm or Bison, or TMX? Shame.
Nice video, I always enjoy yours. I just got the 8" 6 jaw set true and the D1-4 backing plate. Checking and then removing a 1 inch precision ground dowl repeated exactly with a .0001 indicator. It is not a Bison for sure but it is way less money than I paid for my Bision 6 jaw.
Very interesting video and NICE looking chuck!!
looks like a nice chuck ... 6 jaw awesomeness
I think it's enough... I would like to see the AVID CNC router machining some aluminum 😅
Love your videos James 🙂
I absolutely love my 6 jaw (Buck) but the set-true bit is incredibly annoying to get dialed in. Dial it in... tighten the chuck to the backplate... oops it moved. Unless I'm cutting thin pipe I'd rather have a quality 3 jaw.
I leave mine tight to the backplate, try that and see if you like that method more
Now that you have a DRO, you can hook the Z-axis scale to the electronic leadscrew, and make an auto-stop feature for threading to a shoulder.
I am curious about the pros and cons of cold bluing vs. nickel plating for wear and rust resistance. I was thinking about backing plates and tool holders in particular. Of course, it goes without saying, but I will say it anyway, I love your content and the superb production quality of your videos.
9:50 surely you have 2 dial indicators that you could use at the same time, no? I'm no machinist, but it seems like a torque wrench at 23:56 would be ideal so that you get repeatable results. Not to mention, without knowing the error in the unknown bar you're using, that could account for the runout when moving the bar around.
I've seen this video of James pup-up several times in UA-cam and wandered what to buy for more accuracy: 6-Jaw Chuck or a 5c-collet.
I've seen this whole video and couldn't find the answer other than the big smile at the beginning 🙂
Is it a one-or-the-other situation that the 6-Jaw Chuck is an easy replacement for the 5c-collet with almost the same accuracy?
Huh, I didn't know that you and I don't live very far apart. I'll keep that in mind if I do an E-screw update on my old Clausing.
I have had the same chuck from Shars for about 1or 2 years, only with a cam lock mounting, very nice chuck and I love it. I'm sure you will also.
James, the link for the Chuck seems to be broken ? All other links working
Thanks. It's fixed now. It moved out from under me for some reason.
I’m not sure exactly how you set it. The way it’s done is to snug the mounting screws, but not too tightly. Then work on the four screws until you get it to where you’re satisfied. And then, tighten the mounting screws down tightly, to whatever torque the manufacturer says. Often, your adjustment will move a small amount, and you might want to back the mounting screws off slightly, and readjust. It’s iterative. If you’re lucky, you’ll get it the first time, but often, you need to touch it up once.
What I’ve found is that a good quality chuck will hold the setting for about one third to three times the diameter of the pin you’ve set it with, to 0.0002” of your initial adjustment, which is good enough. You can get these chucks easily to 0.0003” with a little care and even to below that if you have a known accurate pin. I use a 1” x 4” high precision carbide pin. In my 8” Buck. The pin is ground to +- 0.00005”, so good enough to measure to +-0.0002”. When using the pin, make sure it’s long enough to extend down the entire depth of the contacting jaws.
Thank you for clarifying how to use the chuck, I was sure the mounting screws needed to be done up after cantering the chuck.
This is when the automatic threading start and stop funtion would be nice no worrys about stopping the threading The CLOUGH42 ELS would take care of that
How about hardness on the jaws? I was on the fence about picking up a 6 jaw for years. I didn't want to spend $700 years ago on a 6" Bison as I have a Burnerd Collet chuck that always repeats but having to turn the chuck key on that thing will wear you out. Now the 6" Bisons are $1600+ since the pandemic and the other options such as Gator aren't far behind. I bought a Clausing last year with a 2-3/4" - 8 spindle nose and wanted a good chuck for it but just didn't feel comfortable pulling the trigger on the Shars or other Chicom 6 jaws so I scoured eBay for months looking for a used Bison or Buck that was actually in good condition. A seller listed a newer 6" Buck with solid smooth jaws that looked almost new for $399 plus shipping and I snatched it up the second I seen it. As with most things in life, If its too good to be true, it probably is because when I twisted the scroll, it was gritty and stiff and wouldn't slide all the way through the range. Popping the two halves of the body apart, the inside wasn't shiny like the outside and it was apparent that the chuck had spent its life turning graphite or carbon fiber and a mixture of that dust, grease, and probably a water based coolant had hardened inside the scroll and gears and that caused binding and repeating issues. I did manage to clean everything out and get it working and still use it today but there are some things that do bother me about a 6 jaw. I view them as a 3 jaw with 3 "Secondary" jaws as you will get the exact same performance from a set-tru 3 jaw. A 6 jaw will shine when your grabbing thin walled parts that deform easily as the 3 extra jaws will also support the workpiece when they start to deform outwards between the 3 main jaws, but check with your hardened pin and see if your getting clamping pressure equally on all 6 jaws. With every 6 jaws that I've used, you will notice that when clamping a solid part that is perfectly round, you can actually wiggle 3 of the jaws unless you really crank down on the material to the point where the first 3 jaws are flexing or digging in enough to engage the other 3. They will repeat accurately on identical diameters but if you have a set of parts that vary by a couple thou, you will be constantly turning those adjustment screws between parts to dial things back in. My buck seems to naturally run out 0.003" when jumping diameters. I know 6 Jaws have developed a rep among a lot of Hobby machinist that they are the pinnacle of precision scroll chucks once they are dialed in and I feel like that is part of the reasoning people desire them over cheaper 3 jaw Set-tru chucks.
My use-case for a six-jaw was with thin-walled parts, but softjaws on my old Pratt Burnerd 8 inch 3 jaw work so well that I can find a better use for the £2000+ cost of a Bison.
I agree that a lot of the reverence in the hobby community is more legend than pragmatism.
@@MachiningandMicrowaves I think its easy to view the 6 jaws as some kind of perfect chuck because of their stiff price tag, especially when you just don't know.
That smile in the intro had me laughing way too hard!! Love it!
Great video James!
Question: you were complaining about flexibility due to stick out when boring the counterbore, but it looked like you didn't need as much stickout as you had to get to the bottom of the bore. Couldn't you have adjusted the tool?
For that cut, yes.
I wonder if I could drill and tap adjustments screws in my non- adjustable 3 jaw chuck never really thought about it I'll look at it when the when this cold front moves thru -3 is to cold
0:02 I do not understand why you guys refer such important tools as just "toys". Clearly they are not toys, they are tools that gets work done and people all over world use this tools to earn a livelihood & they clearly deserve a lot of respect to be just referred as a "toy" in the beginning of this video.
Is this "chuck + backing plate" too heavy for the wheel balancers that you made recently? ;)
Thanks for the well filmed and edited interesting video.
I did the similar work adapting a 5# 3 jaw onto a 4# mini lathe. The adapter plate came from LMS and fit perfectly to both the chuck and the head stock, without any cuts! Using Randys knocker when tightening the bolts a run out of 1 thou was achieved. Not bad at all. However, the plate moves all the work some 1" away from the head stock and chatter happens more easily.
Very cool. I was a little worried about stickout, but because of the way the back plate is constructed, it ends up being exactly the same length as the stock 4-jaw.
1 in 3/4 8th? What?? Can’t you guys not just finally take over normal units of measure?
Why are you "hearting" multiple spam accounts? Pretending you read the comments?
Went looking for the balancing of the new 6 jaw chuck --- could not find ?
Thanks
very nice
You should have a video on TIG welding.
Your introduction reminded me of another UA-camr, Baldihack.
good job as always. I built a Dynamic balancer out of 8020 and used dynexhobby electronics. Works quite well
That looks really interesting. I ordered one to play with.
22:47 did you retighten the bolt hole pattern bolts before testing for repeatability? Or are you to adjust the 4 adjust tru bolts while the front bolts are holding the chuck to the plate tightly
I thought it said Jaws 6: Chuck. "Not with three barrels he can't".
The expensive precision highly trusted dial indicator says its only running out by half a though so Ill wind it up to 2500 RPM & check it with my mk1 eyeball - yep, that looks ok.
CLASIC James.
Balancing it will be fun.
1 go fully assembled or 3 steps - remove backing plate & balance it.
Balance the chuck.
Assemble & balance the combination?
This will be interesting.
Good luck & thanks.
Not sure I want to try taking material off the chuck itself. Taking it off the backing plate is easier, though it means it'll be a static balance and not a dynamic one. Worth a try to see what we get, though.
@@Clough42 yes. Any form of better balance is usually a good thing.
Its like a rabbithole with no light at the end though.
Ha! And I just bought a Bison Set-Tru 5C collet chuck. Thinking about getting their 6 jaw. I didn't want to wait for Precision Mathews to restock their Set-tru's.
My much cheaper chuck was badly out of balance. First I indicated in the O.D. of the chuck. That fixed the out-of-balance, but then I needed to do an internal skim cut on the jaws with an internal stone tool post grinder.
Yeah. This is a possibility. It would be worth dialing it in on the outside face to see how that affects the vibration.
When doing cast iron I always lay a cloth over the ways to keep the chips off....
Put a vacuum cleaner next to the cutter to catch the chips, obviously...
Great video. I found that it's important to use the same screw to tighten with every time. My Toolmex 6 jaw has a 0 mark on one of the chuck screws, so it's easy to make sure you use the same screw every time.
It's easy on this chuck, too, because it has only one pinion.
I agree with person Chris and I use to watch your channel. Personally I'm past my career. I'm not interested in digital/analog, PLC stuff. On and on... Not trying to be rude, as he said, the scope is now different.
The great news is there are lots of other channels with content you might like better. Some of them don't disclose their business relationships, so that should make it easier for you.
I plan to try to implement a carriage stop feature in the ELS so that I can set a stop point and, as long as I don't disconnect the lead screw, it will not go past that point towards the chuck. It'll still keep track of the spindle, but won't let the lead screw turn past my stop point. When I then reverse the spindle, the ELS will activate the lead screw when I pass the stop point in reverse, and drag the carriage back (it could be optimised too, to save some revolutions, but that comes later).
Since I live in the metric world but my lathe has an imperial lead screw and while threading I kinda have to keep the half nut engaged all the time anyway, so it wouldn't add any inconvenience for me. On the contrary, as my lathe is set up now, without a brake, I can't thread up to a shoulder or even into a reasonably sized gutter. The electronic stop would fix that.
Still haven't mounted my ELS, time in the shop has been scarce, but I plan to at some point.
I just realized that I can't be the first one to think of that, checked the pull requests on the repo and, as I suspected, someone else already implemented that feature. Perfect!
Olá amigo
Pode me passar o link pra eu comprar um mandrl desse com regulagem
Obrigado
You know, if you back off the cross slide at the same time you disengage the half nuts, you don’t have so much trouble with the full form tool cutting the threads or digging in if you disengage early…
Or you could do like those crazy Europeans and leave the half nuts engaged the whole time, stopping the machine and reversing it for each pass.
This machine doesn't stop very quickly at the moment.
Beautiful chuck. And nice work.
Isnt the point of being a machinist is being able to cut a thread to spec, knowing it will fit ? Making the dummy thread introduces more error, right? IDK . Any thoughts ?
Two issues: 1) I have no way to measure the pitch diameter of an inside thread, and 2) I'm trying to match the spindle, not any specific thread specification.
Very nice chuck, great feature having the adjustable backplate. That is a bonus. I enjoyed the machining process. Tony
what is the source of your dual AXA indicator holder?
I have never been *this* early to a video! Good to see you James!
I'm glad you're here. Thanks for watching!
I recently bought a very similar looking import 6jaw by zentra. Might be from the same factory? definitely take it apart and deburr everythjng and clean out the grinding dust if you have not done so by now ✌️mine was really filthy on the inside.
I really love watching your videos and learn something every time.
I too was SHOCKED when my metric hex keys did not fit into the mounting hardware on my 10” 6 jaw from Shars.
Your lathe has:
* A digitally controlled lead screw
* A digitally controlled VFD that controls speed
* A DRO, providing position data
If you stick a servo on your cross slide, I think you could make your lathe CNC
When you have to remove your way guide cover you can use a shop paper towel (the blue ones in a box) that’s been wetted with way oil so it will stick to the ways and not get picked up by the speed of those jaws whipping by.
Oh, that's a good idea. I've seen magnets used for that, but didn't think about way oil.
Old engineers' expression ... "If you can't guarantee 100% accuracy &/or precision 100% of the time ... Make it adjustable! 🤔😁 Definitely applies to electronics too (my primary field). NICE unit! Great video as always!
Great video. I have the Shars 10” D1-6 3 jaw zero set Chuck. Very happy with it. Repeatable to .0005 and often times to .0001 - .0002. Very good Chuck. Even got it on sale 20 % off.
When I setup a new 6-jaw adjustable , I’ll get the body of it to run true first, then see what the factory runout is. You may need to machine the jaws first with ceramic or cbn. Also, if it’s overseas equip. Good idea to disassemble and clean - check torques back plate. Cheers
I know it's a bit late now but there was a missed opportunity there to make a spindle nose replica on a MT shaft. You could have used it as your plug gauge but then also used it to mount your lathe chuck in other machines or parts of machines such as your tailstock. I use mine quite a lot like this.
Not sure I understand. You would want bearings if you mount a chuck in your tailstock, right?
@@Clough42 You could make such an arbour, but I use mine stationary for workholding. Opens up new options for things you can't spin in the lathe. Less useful maybe if you have a mill as you do.
(I don't).
To avoid the stringy chips try a 2011 aluminum. Metal Supermarkets has a vid called Which Aluminum Grade Should I Use about it.
I have always wanted a good 6 jaw scroll chuck as well. I have thrown too many parts out of the 3 jaw, and stopped using them for any heavier work or cuts as they just don't hold as well. I have never thrown one from a 4 jaw, and 6 would fix the problem that the 3 jaw has.
I usually try to cut the threads running in reverse and upside-down You have to be right on engaging the dial, but there is no risk of crashing the machine.
A piece of wood across the ways when fitting and removing chucks is good, cheap insurance against serious damage from a dropped chuck.
I'm not nearly as worried about it as many people on the Internet seem to be. I'm pretty lazy, and I'd have to turn around to pick up a piece of wood. If I didn't feel secure palming a 30lb chuck, I might feel differently.
This is a little off topic but I noticed that you use a 2L coke bottle for coolant on you CNC mill. I don’t drink coke, I prefer cranberry juice, so I am using a cranberry juice container for my coolant reservoir. It’s a great idea!
Not sure if you tightened the 6 facing bolts on the set true. I got the 10 inch 3 jaw gator set true chuck, and I lightly oiled the contact area where the chuck meets the backing plate so there was no binding and snugged the facing bolts and then spent a good half hour dialing it in and I got dead nuts zero on a starret indicator and I then tightened the facing bolts up and re checked and still dead nuts on 0. I've had perfect repeatability every time. Set true chucks cost more but in the end they are so worth it.
Oh no. Looks like I'm gonna have to add another chuck to my collection. I also purchased the 5c collet chuck for my PM1127 after watching your video and seeing how well it performed for such an affordable price.
Enjoyed…congrats on the tooling addition
Just a random question regarding those chips, would an appropriately placed strong magnet (in a plastic container with a washer on the outside to keep it place) be a viable trick/method to catch some of the chips rather than have them fly everywhere? ( know it wouldn't work for non-ferrous materials... but...?
I have two lathes with 1-3/4”-8 threads….challenging sometimes to find what you need. That’s a fantastic workaround, well done
Looks so funny to see such a small 6 jaw, when the only other 6 jaw I've seen before is on Abom's channel...
I used one about this size on Stan Zinkosky's Logan lathe and really enjoyed it. I think his doesn't have removable jaw caps, so it's a little more compact.
that dial gage holder, did you make it or are they sold?
Mark the position of backing to the chuck by a center point mark. Then you always know mount it at the same point, specially when you want to do balancing by removing som material of the backing plate.
What do you think about using a vacuum hose to suck up the abrasive dust while machining cast iron? I don't do cast very often, so my shop vac noise is tolerable.
On exactly one occasion I was paranoid enough to run the shop vac exhaust in the back of the spindle bore as well. I dunno if it helped all that much, but it made me feel like I was doing as much as I could reasonably do to keep the dust out of my collets.
I use these 6 jaw chucks often and I made a bunch of aluminum soft jaws for different parts. The soft jaw repeat well for a ±.005 tolerance.
Was this filmed before you got the new quick change tool post? Or has the new solid tool post not come back yet? xD
that smile, epic!!! I felt it, hahahahah, made my day
So I was inspired to finish machining a back plate like yours from Shars. I found the Achilles heal of the ELS. My lead screw motor kept pooping out threading those deep, course threads. I think I’m ready to update the motor as you have. Do you know if there is any arduino code I need to fiddle with? I apologize, that stuff is way above my comfort zone. Thanks James!
If the new motor has the same steps per revolution, it should be a drop-in replacement.
@@Clough42 let me put it this way…I’m buying the same exact motor that you did. Did you have to change steps? I don’t want to stray from my shop being exactly like yours and all. On that note, do you do anything to clean your Rancilio Rocky espresso grinder? I know, off topic…
@@seanwolfe9321 I'm sure I adjusted the steps per revolution, but I don't remember exactly how it's configured, to be honest. Whatever you see in the videos is probably still the way it's set up.
6061 is always a pain, I find 2011 free machining aluminium much better.
You smiled like a kid with a new toy... 😂
I have been told that 6 jaws loose their accuracy after heating up causing them to get loose at high rpms. yours being new would be a good one to verify this on.
James, here's an experiment I've always wanted to do: test repeatability on all three scroll pinions. I've always thought that the inevitable tiny bit of runout on the scroll itself could shove the whole clamp system a few tenths one way or another, depending on which pinion you stick the chuck key into last...
This chuck has only one pinion.
@@Clough42 And you even said that! D'oh! What got me started on this was thinking about repeatability on 3-jaw chucks, actually. I always wondered if you could mark a part's position, remove it and re-chuck it, using the same pinion, and get better centering...
@@d00dEEE Most multi-pinion chucks have one that's marked with an O that's the "master" pinion, which was tightened last when the jaws were ground at the factory. Tighten that one last for best repeatability.
I want a new lathe that comes with a 6 jaw chuck, all of the fine tooling and an electronic lead screw that you built. Here’s to dreaming.